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Ghoste
09-29-2007, 11:23 PM
A while ago I asked some questions regarding stealth and monsters' ability to locate us. I got a very strong impression that the Dev who responded to my post did not comprehend the nature of the problem I was describing.

Here is a quote of part of his reply. Generally speaking there was a lot of useful insight in his reply to how the ai works with player stealth, but I took issue with the following part which I believe to be completely false:

If a monster has lost track of where you are and you're hiding or invisible, it will wander around trying to find you, its search pattern getting wider and wider as time goes on.

So the question really is, what does he mean by "If a monster has lost track of where you are"? If they have no chance of spotting/hearing you and cant touch you, haven't they lost track of you?

Here is a video demonstration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d_2m0bCvXI) I have prepared to illustrate this issue.

FYI, the reason they were following me in the first place was because I purposely bumpedinto them to set up this demonstration.

stonecircle
09-30-2007, 04:55 AM
Your move silently skill isnt really that high compared to some monsters listen. But youve already messed with him so he basically has an idea of where you are. If you were sneaking and he heard you he would come investigate but not be able to see you. If you are fast enough you'd get outta their hearing range while they are slowly searching and give up. But not once youve physically engaged them. You have stealth ...not "hide in the middle of combat" 20 feet away from foe. If you had someone else aggroe them and stayed hidden then you can hide again. BTW they did change invisibility to be a hide bonus rather then complete invisable. When your character has a 15 or so listen or spot you can see outlines of the foes, the same is happening with them vs you.

So I agree with you about the Dev not saying the right thing but stealth isnt necessarily broken. They changed the AI too so maybe they used to search wide arcs. It also depends on the area, if you were outside they would search wider, but a hallway or canyon is narrow so they have no choice.

GlassCannon
09-30-2007, 05:10 AM
The monsters always know exactly where you are. I tried this with a Hide of 44 and a Move Silently of 47 and the same result occurred in Waterworks on Normal during my test. Player Stealth NEVER WORKED. It's not broken, it was never implemented to start with.

Ghoste
09-30-2007, 06:49 AM
Your move silently skill isnt really that high compared to some monsters listen. But youve already messed with him so he basically has an idea of where you are.He knew where I was at the time I bumped into him, not because he was able to hear me. Then I moved. Yes, some creatures have high enough listen to follow, but not those guys. If you're not sure whether or not they can hear you, look for the red sound flashes by your feet. There are a few monsters in the game where my feet flash red when I try to sneak by them, none of them are bugbears of any CR rating.

If you were sneaking and he heard you he would come investigate but not be able to see you. If you are fast enough you'd get outta their hearing range while they are slowly searching and give up. But not once youve physically engaged them. You have stealth ...not "hide in the middle of combat" 20 feet away from foe.Actually, invisibilty is supposed to enable you to do that. You are supposed to be able to lose someone who is aware you are outthere somewhere. They cant see or hear you, and your move silently and hide are high enough to avoid giving your location away, then yes you should be able to do just that.
If you had someone else aggroe them and stayed hidden then you can hide again. BTW they did change invisibility to be a hide bonus rather then complete invisable.Readthe thread linked to Eladrin's quote. In there Eladrin explains what you just said, and also explains that it means you are always hiding from foes who can not see invisibility.

Currently invisibility gives monsters a penalty to their spot checks of -20, and considers you "always hiding as if you had a skill of 20, even if you're not actually hiding". No changes have been made to it from the monster side.
When your character has a 15 or so listen or spot you can see outlines of the foes, the same is happening with them vs you. A listen or spot of 15 means you can spot/hear enemies with stealth skills below 15. A listen skill of 15 does nothing to hear a character with move silently 31. In PnP you would get a roll, so 15 might be enough in PnP. They didn't implement arole for stealth skills in DDO though. Any rogue can tell you that. They have to have spot equal to or greater than the DC of a trap to sense it, and the same for search to find it - no getting lucky rolls on that.


So I agree with you about the Dev not saying the right thing but stealth isnt necessarily broken. They changed the AI too so maybe they used to search wide arcs. It also depends on the area, if you were outside they would search wider, but a hallway or canyon is narrow so they have no choice.
I dont think you were watching closely enough, but for the benefit of the doubt, I made another vid of another test to clear up some of the doubts you express: video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O-GynoIFDE)

Hvymetal
09-30-2007, 07:08 AM
Yea Ghoste is right on this one, I play mainly Rogues. There is no roll involved with Search and Spot (and almost 100% certain with listen either). Once you have their attention it is damn near impossible to loose them.

stonecircle
09-30-2007, 07:54 AM
Yea Ghoste is right on this one, I play mainly Rogues. There is no roll involved with Search and Spot (and almost 100% certain with listen either). Once you have their attention it is damn near impossible to loose them.

Well I dont use stealth all the time but you can definately lose them after they hear you, easily, just by moving fast enough away till you are out of earshot. EG: the crucible, underwtaer key area. I can 99% of the time get the attention of a single Knoll ( 1 of 6) and pull him around corner by letting him hear me moving. When he comes to investigate I just back up (faster sneaking enhancement helps and haste) and then pounce when the others cannot see. Repeat 5 times and you have a key and horn. But the point is that at any given time I can move far enough away where he loses interest. This is on elite as well so.....

But there has to be some compromise for gameplay. If the rules were the way the O.P. wants them every quest would be a cakewalk for a rogue cept when they see invisable. If you had a 30 plus hide, move silent, then you would be totally invisable. The Original poster hit the Hobgoblin, duh what do you expect.

Not saying that the sneak mechanic couldnt be better, but your confusing (like so many others) PnP rules and applications of DM controlled monsters with DDO and a universal AI for all. Maybe when the holodeck is invented sneak will be more realistic.

Aspenor
09-30-2007, 08:57 AM
Stealth works just use some more stuff. Try invisibility (hint hint). They still search for you but they don't know *exactly* where you are.

Ghoste
09-30-2007, 01:24 PM
Stealth works just use some more stuff. Try invisibility (hint hint). They still search for you but they don't know *exactly* where you are.
I WAS using invisible. The difference I think is actually bumping into a monster. Do that and even with invis and stealth skill completely maxed out, not even the best rogue will stay hidden. The onlyway to lose them is to take off running, and like stone said, put some distance between them and yourself.

Well I dont use stealth all the time but you can definately lose them after they hear you, easily, just by moving fast enough away till you are out of earshot. EG: the crucible, underwtaer key area. I can 99% of the time get the attention of a single Knoll ( 1 of 6) and pull him around corner by letting him hear me moving. When he comes to investigate I just back up (faster sneaking enhancement helps and haste) and then pounce when the others cannot see. Repeat 5 times and you have a key and horn. But the point is that at any given time I can move far enough away where he loses interest. This is on elite as well so.....

But there has to be some compromise for gameplay. If the rules were the way the O.P. wants them every quest would be a cakewalk for a rogue cept when they see invisable. If you had a 30 plus hide, move silent, then you would be totally invisable. The Original poster hit the Hobgoblin, duh what do you expect.

Not saying that the sneak mechanic couldnt be better, but your confusing (like so many others) PnP rules and applications of DM controlled monsters with DDO and a universal AI for all. Maybe when the holodeck is invented sneak will be more realistic.
So basically you're saying you dont think it is possible to program it better. Fair enough.

As far as what I expect after bumping into something? I expect the invisibility spell to do what the Devs had said on these forums it does, and I expect the monsters to behave how the Devs have said they should behave. [I]f they want to come out and tell us stealth wont work in video games till the 24th century, lol, fine, but that is not what they have said.


If you had a 30 plus hide, move silent, then you would be totally invisable. The Original poster hit the Hobgoblin, duh what do you expect.
You're missing the point. It's not the original detection, it's how they can continue to detect the player after that. They have no more physical contact to locate me after the first bump. Their listen skill is not high enough even for 30 move silently (many monsters in the game do have high enough listen, those ones dont). If they were able to hear me, the behavior from them would be completely different than what you can see in those videos. You can test that yourself. For ****'s sake I gave you a video showing the same thing with CR 2 hobgoblins!!! So stop saying it's because their listen skill is so high.

What do I expect? I expect stealth to work like the devs have said it works, duh.

redoubt
09-30-2007, 01:27 PM
Well I dont use stealth all the time but you can definately lose them after they hear you, easily, just by moving fast enough away till you are out of earshot. EG: the crucible, underwtaer key area. I can 99% of the time get the attention of a single Knoll ( 1 of 6) and pull him around corner by letting him hear me moving. When he comes to investigate I just back up (faster sneaking enhancement helps and haste) and then pounce when the others cannot see. Repeat 5 times and you have a key and horn. But the point is that at any given time I can move far enough away where he loses interest. This is on elite as well so.....

But there has to be some compromise for gameplay. If the rules were the way the O.P. wants them every quest would be a cakewalk for a rogue cept when they see invisable. If you had a 30 plus hide, move silent, then you would be totally invisable. The Original poster hit the Hobgoblin, duh what do you expect. My ranger has a standing spot of 37, buffed to 47 or even 51. I don't get how 30 plus hide etc makes you immune to detection.

Not saying that the sneak mechanic couldnt be better, but your confusing (like so many others) PnP rules and applications of DM controlled monsters with DDO and a universal AI for all. Maybe when the holodeck is invented sneak will be more realistic.

Some mobs will just have higher spot, listen etc. Would be nice to see more places where sneaking can work and makes a difference.

Ghoste
09-30-2007, 01:40 PM
It's not a matter of whether or not Turbine thinks they should be able to see you. Anybody can test and verify that monsters behave completely differently than what I am describing when they can see you. This is something Turbine has decided they want to impliment, but there is a bug in it. Saying it's impossible to fix and that Turbine shouldn't bother is not just contrary to what I think; Turbine wants it to work, and from what I have read from their replies, they think it currently does work. Now they know otherwise and have a couple videos showing tests that they can duplicate to see for themselves exactly where the problem lies.

Stone's last post helps emphasize where I think the main bug lies.

1.You can be heard by an enemy and he will follow the AI as the Devs have described as long as he doesnt figure out exactly where you are. You can make enough noise that he knows you're there, just as surely as if you'd bumped into him, and will follow the search behavior outlined by the devs.

BUT

2. If you bump into him, letting him know where you are for a split second by feel, even if he cant see you and cant hear you, he will track you afterwards. And the two videos I have posted illustrate exactly how that mechanic work. It is very different than how they follow someone with very low, or no, stealth skills. Try that same experiment with a fighter in heavy armor and a -10 total to both sneak skills. They wont ping intermitantly on your location, they will run right at you.

In both 1 and 2 you can set up a situation where they know you are there, just not exactly where, except for a split second when they either hear you or feel you, but they behave completely differently.

Aspenor
09-30-2007, 01:43 PM
Personally my rogue has run smack into the crotch of many monsters while sneaking and was never even noticed.....

Ghoste
09-30-2007, 01:54 PM
Personally my rogue has run smack into the crotch of many monsters while sneaking and was never even noticed.....
Try duplicating what I have shown in the two videos. Bump into something until it does know you're there, use invisibility, and watch it track you. Try it for yourself on something you know shouldn't be able to hear you. Then let me know if you are noticing this bug.

Aspenor
09-30-2007, 02:18 PM
Try duplicating what I have shown in the two videos. Bump into something until it does know you're there, use invisibility, and watch it track you. Try it for yourself on something you know shouldn't be able to hear you. Then let me know if you are noticing this bug.

How do you propose I get the monster's attention? I'll give it a shot right now.
*Edit/Added* I'm headed to House K with Aerren right now to go into VON 1 and harass that bugbear.

Ghoste
09-30-2007, 02:25 PM
How do you propose I get the monster's attention? I'll give it a shot right now.
*Edit/Added* I'm headed to House K with Aerren right now to go into VON 1 and harass that bugbear.
Try bumping into it over and over til it notices you.

If that doesnt work, attack it (ranged). Then cast invis on yourself, and sneak.

I'm not sure if attacking it will get the same results though. What you're looking for is the monster moving to attack the location you were at when it got its "ping", which happens at the end of its attack animation cycle.

Aspenor
09-30-2007, 02:55 PM
These are my findings with skill scores of Hide: 41, Move Silently: 46

Once monster attention is gained the *only* way to lose it again (somewhat) is by casting invisibility.

Once monster attention is gained, for a long, long period of time afterward that monster will have knowledge of your location within approximately 10 game feet. I do not see the the pattern that ghoste finds with his rogue to be entirely accurate. After attacking, initially the monster will move nearly directly toward me even while stealthed and invisible. It takes some pretty savvy sneak/maneuvering to avoid getting smacked with a weapon at this time. As time goes on they will stand in one position swinging longer, and won't necessarily move to exactly the spot I had been standing during their last attack, but will move in that direction. If I lead a particular monster far enough he will eventually just stand in one spot, swinging, and turning every so often.

However, if said monster pulls out a ranged weapon, they have a dead-shot on you almost always. I saw 2 monsters shooting in the wrong direction, but more often they were aiming right at me even when invisible and stealthed.

In conclusion, it ended up taking me about 10 minutes to de-aggro the mobs I riled up by sneaking into VON 1. *ADDED* Except one thing, I ended up moving within range of a troll that had whipped out a bow, and in the end I teleported out because he shot at me with an arrow and I un-stealthed while not invisible anymore. I had about 12 mobs on me :p

Ghoste
09-30-2007, 06:16 PM
Thank you for your findings, Asp. Btw, that was a pure wizard, not a rogue.
+8 ranks of move silently and hide
+15 move silently (docent)
+10 hide (ring)
+4GH
+4 dex
--------
31 move silently and 26 hide (46 counting invis)

Turial
09-30-2007, 06:20 PM
Out of curiosity do the mobs in von 1 have see invisibility on? I have noticed in several areas if the mob has that spell and you go invisible its like lighting up a neon sign saying "Come attack this brightly lit spot here!?!"

Aspenor
09-30-2007, 06:25 PM
Thank you for your findings, Asp. Btw, that was a pure wizard, not a rogue.
+8 ranks of move silently and hide
+15 move silently (docent)
+10 hide (ring)
+4GH
+4 dex
--------
31 move silently and 26 hide (46 counting invis)

Well if invisibility is +20 to hide then I had 66 hide while invisible.

Ghoste
09-30-2007, 06:26 PM
Out of curiosity do the mobs in von 1 have see invisibility on? I have noticed in several areas if the mob has that spell and you go invisible its like lighting up a neon sign saying "Come attack this brightly lit spot here!?!"
Not von 1.

In any case, after doing that demonstration I went on to do the rest of the von series. I was able to avoid fighting any of the drow (who do have see invisibility) in there, except where I had to break stealth to open doors, with my hide at only 22 (didn't bother with the GH buff). Considering all the drow rangers in there who couldn't spot or hear me when I walked within inches of them, I really really doubt the claim made (not by you) that bugbears have uber listen and it is impossible to avoid detection from them.

There is a huge difference when they have see invis, because you cannot hide from them again after bumping into them.

Turial
09-30-2007, 06:33 PM
The way stealth seems to be working for you makes me wonder if they will implement hide in plain sight as a way to overcome it. Granted for most people it won't help much but it could be interesting to see.

Ghoste
09-30-2007, 06:43 PM
The way stealth seems to be working for you makes me wonder if they will implement hide in plain sight as a way to overcome it. Granted for most people it won't help much but it could be interesting to see.
The thing is, invisibility is supposed to work just like that. So if they do implement that feat, a lot of rogues are going to be upset unless they fix this bug.

Turial
09-30-2007, 06:49 PM
Very true. And I agree 100% with what you have shown here. Now only if the devs read and understand.

*Sets down a pair of reading glasses given to his long dead uncle by a golden "Woolly Mammoth"*

That should do the trick.

parvo
09-30-2007, 09:46 PM
Stealth works just fine. If a mob attacks you, your stealth has been broken. A real rogue could have stealthed right by the creatures in those videos.

dameron
09-30-2007, 09:51 PM
Stealth works just fine. If a mob attacks you, your stealth has been broken. A real rogue could have stealthed right by the creatures in those videos.

Yeah, who am I gonna believe, you or my lying eyes? Since you obviously didn't read the thread: he intentionally gained aggro in those videos.

Stealth is broken, just as Ghoste demonstrated. At the very least it "works" quite differently from the Dev's explanation.

parvo
09-30-2007, 09:54 PM
Try duplicating what I have shown in the two videos. Bump into something until it does know you're there, use invisibility, and watch it track you. Try it for yourself on something you know shouldn't be able to hear you. Then let me know if you are noticing this bug.

You want to be able to run right into a creature, then run 20 feet away and have them forget you? Real rogues don't run into creatures while they are sneaking past them. Stealth works just fine. What you want is unreasonable.

parvo
09-30-2007, 10:00 PM
Yeah, who am I gonna believe, you or my lying eyes? Since you obviously didn't read the thread: he intentionally gained aggro in those videos.

Stealth is broken, just as Ghoste demonstrated. At the very least it "works" quite differently from the Dev's explanation.

He alerted the mob to his presense, ran about 20 feet away and the mob chased him. Fact is, he could have stealthed right by the creatures. Stealth works fine.

I think the same player was having trouble stealthing through stealthy repo right? That pretty much says all you need to know. This is not a Rogue. It's an invisible, out-of-balance washing machine on spin cycle...

Ghoste
09-30-2007, 11:30 PM
You want to be able to run right into a creature, then run 20 feet away and have them forget you? Real rogues don't run into creatures while they are sneaking past them. Stealth works just fine. What you want is unreasonable.
You're saying the way it should work is that if you are walking down a hallway, feel something touch you and then move away, then even though you cant see or hear it or feel it anymore, you should know exactly where it is? No no no, that is what is unreasonable.

The point has to do with invisibility. Agree or disagree, that is how the Devs have said it is supposed to work.

It's not unreasonable to expect invisibility to work that way with stealth, that's how it's supposed to work. I'm not making any of this up and just asking for what I think would be nice. I'm saying the system doesn't do what they say it does.

parvo
10-01-2007, 08:52 AM
You're saying the way it should work is that if you are walking down a hallway, feel something touch you and then move away, then even though you cant see or hear it or feel it anymore, you should know exactly where it is? No no no, that is what is unreasonable.

The point has to do with invisibility. Agree or disagree, that is how the Devs have said it is supposed to work.

It's not unreasonable to expect invisibility to work that way with stealth, that's how it's supposed to work. I'm not making any of this up and just asking for what I think would be nice. I'm saying the system doesn't do what they say it does.

I get what your saying. But why does it matter? Stealth works just fine. All you have to do is not run smack dab into a creature. I've allways thought of it this way; The creature has a resting spot/listen of x. If the creature is sleeping, it has a spot/listen of x-y. Once alerted and actively looking for a player it has a spot/listen of x+y.

underlordone
10-01-2007, 09:04 AM
I got a 44 hide sneak if your spoted u just have to kill it. I would love to run a coner and hide but its not how it seems to work. Up the skills more man 40's seem to be the #.

oronisi
10-01-2007, 09:12 AM
A while ago I asked some questions regarding stealth and monsters' ability to locate us. I got a very strong impression that the Dev who responded to my post did not comprehend the nature of the problem I was describing.

Here is a quote of part of his reply. Generally speaking there was a lot of useful insight in his reply to how the ai works with player stealth, but I took issue with the following part which I believe to be completely false:


So the question really is, what does he mean by "If a monster has lost track of where you are"? If they have no chance of spotting/hearing you and cant touch you, haven't they lost track of you?

Here is a video demonstration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d_2m0bCvXI) I have prepared to illustrate this issue.

FYI, the reason they were following me in the first place was because I purposely bumpedinto them to set up this demonstration.


Nice demonstration of what we all knew. Hopefully the devs can see what we've been complaining about. I hope they watch the vid.

As for the naysayers....a maxxed rogue can go into a goodblade quest and get the same results...

parvo
10-01-2007, 09:12 AM
I got a 44 hide sneak if your spoted u just have to kill it. I would love to run a coner and hide but its not how it seems to work. Up the skills more man 40's seem to be the #.

How often are you spotted with 44 hide sneak?

parvo
10-01-2007, 09:16 AM
Nice demonstration of what we all knew. Hopefully the devs can see what we've been complaining about. I hope they watch the vid.

As for the naysayers....a maxxed rogue can go into a goodblade quest and get the same results...

I just don't get it. You want to be able to bump into mobs and stay stealthed? You bumped into the mob, it knows your there, it chases you down trying to attack you. That's pretty damn good AI actually.

You're complaining about players acting like they shoudn't and creatures acting like they should. Makes no sense.

stonecircle
10-01-2007, 09:22 AM
Im sorry Ghoste but what you are asking for isnt realistic. You cannot hide when a creature is looking straight at you from 10 feet away; its common sense. Sneak is the ability to use your surrounding to your benefit to hide, via means of shadows, camoflage, smoke screens, hiding behind things etc....

Yes I agree that invisability should make you 100% invisable.....in Pnp. Its well known that at some point the devs took away this power from players because it was a major exploit. Now it boosts your hide skill by "X" amount. You used to be able to run to end of quest kill boss and be done. Or get chest or whatever. (Giant Caves major loot exploit) It cannot be 100% simply for the health of the game and community.

But Im confused... how is it that you hid after you bumped into the hobgoblin( orc or whatever)? Did you go outta line of sight, drink invisability, then go into sneak? Because that would be a realistic way to hide after getting aggroe. If not then there is no way that stealth implies the ability to "hide in plain site". It would be nice if AI couldnt "see" through walls as much though. That effects many areas of the game. Its hard to see your video clearly as well so maybe Im missing something.

In combat im pretty sure you can hide if someone else has aggroe. Potentially if they(team member) died and you were still hidden the monster would go away. I wanna test this now....anyone know for sure?

Aspenor
10-01-2007, 09:28 AM
How often are you spotted with 44 hide sneak?

With a 41 Hide and 45 Move Silently score, the only possible way for me to be spotted is to move within 5 feet directly in front of a monster, with at least "3 eyes" of light illuminating my character.

stonecircle
10-01-2007, 09:31 AM
I'm saying the system doesn't do what they say it does.

Ghoste Ill agree with you there. Most of the tips that appear during loadscreen are all wrong now. Old info that was changed is still lying around the forums and Devs sometimes seem like they've never played the game. Hell it sometimes seems like they dont even have experience with MMOs at all. Ive been here since beta 2 but I can see how frustrating it can be for a new player in general to rely on any info they search for. There are many of us that would do a better job in the creativity and quality control department.

parvo
10-01-2007, 09:35 AM
With a 41 Hide and 45 Move Silently score, the only possible way for me to be spotted is to move within 5 feet directly in front of a monster, with at least "3 eyes" of light illuminating my character.

You mean you cant knock the mob over, scream in his face, run ten feet away and re-stealth as if you were never there? Stealth is so broken...

Aspenor
10-01-2007, 09:40 AM
You mean you cant knock the mob over, scream in his face, run ten feet away and re-stealth as if you were never there? Stealth is so broken...

LoL sure can't.

I would also like to point out that even once spotted, the monster has to physically catch up to me and swing at me close enough that he gets an attack roll in order to actually get me out of sneak. Even if they "spot" me for a brief second, if I'm quick enough to get away they do de-aggro pretty quickly.

Mystyk
10-01-2007, 09:40 AM
You cannot hide when a creature is looking straight at you from 10 feet away; its common sense.
The idea of D&D is that the PC's (Player Characters) have the ability to do things above and beyond the capabilities of an average creature of their race, such as hiding ten feet away from someone.

The average human (in D&D terms) has a wisdom of about 10-11. As a level one character, usually, you probably have a spot of 2 or 3 at best (given training of some type). As an expert, a human has about 14 wisdom at probably lvl 3-ish. So, given the best possible outcome, an average human is capable of having a 7-9 spot. So, something with a 46 hide (which is about 5 or 6 times as much as that human's spot) should, according to D&D, be able to hide 10 feet without that human perceiving their existence.

In short, don't try to use real life to explain a fantasy world...


As for the "stealth has been broken" claims, he already explain that if you weren't invisible and in stealth, they'd always compensate for your movement and go directly at you. While invis and in stealth, though, they go directly towards a spot where you were at and they would have no means of knowing that. In PnP, think of it like a pixie (using their natural invis) running up to your first level fighter, with no ranks in spot and listen, smacking you on the cheek, then flying away. would you still know where the pixie is? Could you shoot that pixie down precisely? Would you know exactly where the pixie was just after each time you tried to swat it down? ...that'd be a no...

His complaint is that the Devs said stealth vs monsters worked a certain way, but it does not. Had the devs said it worked the way he's seen, he probably wouldn't have brought this up at all.

stonecircle
10-01-2007, 09:49 AM
[QUOTE=Mystyk;1368462]The idea of D&D is that the PC's (Player Characters) have the ability to do things above and beyond the capabilities of an average creature of their race, such as hiding ten feet away from someone.
QUOTE]

True about us being heroes and all, but we arent talking about a thinking DM, we are talking about universal AI. I certaily wouldnt wanna play in your campaign with rules liek these. Even though its fantasy I still expect some realism. What can I say, when I was kid I would get upset if someone brought a Tonka Truck to my Matchbox car playtime, or mixed GI JOE action figures with Starwars ones. Its just WRONG!!!!!! So Im sorry but now we cant be friends till you buy some matchbox cars. If you want we can use the GI Joes as dead guys for my Starwars action figures. Well burn holes in them and paint them with red blotches......LOL!!!!!

Riddikulus
10-01-2007, 09:51 AM
You mean you cant knock the mob over, scream in his face, run ten feet away and re-stealth as if you were never there? Stealth is so broken...

No, but I can't knock a mob over, scream in his face, run _forty_ feet away, hide behind a box, and re-stealth as if I was never there either. I think that is broken.

If you go far enough, break LOS and stealth, they should no longer know where you are, but they do.

Mystyk
10-01-2007, 09:58 AM
True about us being heroes and all, but we arent talking about a thinking DM, we are talking about universal AI. I certaily wouldnt wanna play in your campaign with rules liek these. Even though its fantasy I still expect some realism. What can I say, when I was kid I would get upset if someone brought a Tonka Truck to my Matchbox car playtime, or mixed GI JOE action figures with Starwars ones. Its just WRONG!!!!!! So Im sorry but now we cant be friends till you buy some matchbox cars. If you want we can use the GI Joes as dead guys for my Starwars action figures. Well burn holes in them and paint them with red blotches......LOL!!!!!
Riiiight....

Anyway... You're asking for realism in a fantasy game with magic and mythical creatures??? ...

As for realism, my games always have realism added in. Of course, this takes a lot of interpretation of an NPC's likely actions, but I promise you that a CR 2 hobgoblin doesn't have the ability to find the lvl 14 halfling rogue that just tumbled through the hobgoblin's square (which would be the pnp representation of bumping into someone in DDO).

Now, I'm reminded of the invisible man. He can bump into people and they never know where he is...and he's not even trying to sneak away...

Quietstorm
10-01-2007, 09:59 AM
Ghoste I agree with you 100%....but on the other hand I dont understand how you could impliment that without it being an exploit. People like to find ways to find ways to exploit certain game bugs, just so they can solo and get this God type mentality and then the devs have to fix it to restore the very basis of the game....which is a team base DnD experiance with friends, guild members and the general population (via pick up group).
I think your concept is right on...the AI is not preforming the description, but if they did fix it to the description someone would exploit it.

BTW a little birdie told me that hobogoblins have spider sensors.....sssshhhh
dont tell anyone ;p

blakbyrd
10-01-2007, 10:04 AM
Yea Ghoste is right on this one, I play mainly Rogues. There is no roll involved with Search and Spot (and almost 100% certain with listen either). Once you have their attention it is damn near impossible to loose them.

I am inclined to agree with this. Stealthy Repossession is my best example. Once a kkobold prophet "hears" me, he doesnt start wandering around looking for me really. He follows me practically everywhere I go, pretending not to know where I am in, but he doesnt "wander" unless he makes a roll of 1d1+99 to guess which way I am headed. If I walk in a circle, he walks in a circle. If I turn left an a T intersection he turns left (he will never turn right "wandering" to find me), etc.

parvo
10-01-2007, 10:05 AM
No, but I can't knock a mob over, scream in his face, run _forty_ feet away, hide behind a box, and re-stealth as if I was never there either. I think that is broken.

If you go far enough, break LOS and stealth, they should no longer know where you are, but they do.

I've run fare nough from mobs that they aren't aggroed on me anymore. YOu have to run pretty far, but it's not broken. Most of the time, you're hiding in thier house. From a realistic standpoint, if I knew there was an invisible person in my house, I could find them. From a game standpoint, it wouldn't be balanced for you to do what you suggest.

stonecircle
10-01-2007, 10:20 AM
I've run fare nough from mobs that they aren't aggroed on me anymore. YOu have to run pretty far, but it's not broken. Most of the time, you're hiding in thier house. From a realistic standpoint, if I knew there was an invisible person in my house, I could find them. From a game standpoint, it wouldn't be balanced for you to do what you suggest.

WHAT!!!!? How dare you mix realism with a fantasy game!!! (sarcastic)

Riddikulus
10-01-2007, 10:31 AM
I've run fare nough from mobs that they aren't aggroed on me anymore. YOu have to run pretty far, but it's not broken.
Yes, you are right, but I can also do that on my tank in full plate. It's broken for hide/move silently.


Most of the time, you're hiding in thier house. From a realistic standpoint, if I knew there was an invisible person in my house, I could find them.
Even if you knew there was an invisible, silent person in your house it would be quite easy for you to lose them, unless you have a 1 bedroom apartment.


From a game standpoint, it wouldn't be balanced for you to do what you suggest.
So score one for the knock down drag out battle crowd. I suppose you like red names also. ;)

Mad_Bombardier
10-01-2007, 10:57 AM
This is not a Rogue. It's an invisible, out-of-balance washing machine on spin cycle.../whaps parvo on the nose with a newspaper. "Bad, parvo. No!"


Wait, that was pretty funny. :D

Mad_Bombardier
10-01-2007, 10:59 AM
No, but I can't knock a mob over, scream in his face, run _forty_ feet away, hide behind a box, and re-stealth as if I was never there either. I think that is broken.

If you go far enough, break LOS and stealth, they should no longer know where you are, but they do.Agreed Ridd. Surely, you can't restealth 10 ft away in the open (without Hide in Plain Sight). But, if you go 2 rooms and 40 meters away, behind furniture, in shadows, and restealth, the mob should lose you. It should go in the room, even behind the furniture, but have to redo it's spot and listen checks.

You mean you cant knock the mob over, scream in his face, run ten feet away and re-stealth as if you were never there?If Hide in Plain Sight does not allow us to do this, THEN it will be broken.

parvo
10-01-2007, 11:06 AM
Yes, you are right, but I can also do that on my tank in full plate. It's broken for hide/move silently.


Even if you knew there was an invisible, silent person in your house it would be quite easy for you to lose them, unless you have a 1 bedroom apartment.


So score one for the knock down drag out battle crowd. I suppose you like red names also. ;)

The tank in full plate cannont sneak back up to the creature and backsab it. The rogue can. Nothing broken with that.

Turn me into a 400-lb Hobgoblin with a 7-ft long sword, and I can find them even in a big house.

Red names...funny...you realize I play permadeath? I'm a huge advocate for tactics and strategic play. And as a player who sneaks more in full plate than most players do in leather, I know it's not broken.

Riddikulus
10-01-2007, 11:23 AM
The tank in full plate cannont sneak back up to the creature and backsab it. The rogue can. Nothing broken with that.
The notion was to run away to hide and lose aggro, not sneak back up, but whatever. The point is that in order for the rogue to lose aggro he has to run so far away that any character could do the same thing... it has nothing to do with hide/move silently or sneaking at that point.


Turn me into a 400-lb Hobgoblin with a 7-ft long sword, and I can find them even in a big house.
Not without ripping the whole house apart.

You must not have small children. You'd be amazed at places they can find to hide in a typical house. And they don't have 40+ hide and move silently scores.


Red names...funny...you realize I play permadeath? I'm a huge advocate for tactics and strategic play. And as a player who sneaks more in full plate than most players do in leather, I know it's not broken.
Sneak works fine. It's the once found and resneak that doesn't work all that well. It is extremely difficult to shake aggro with stealth.

Mystyk
10-01-2007, 11:27 AM
The tank in full plate cannont sneak back up to the creature and backsab it. The rogue can. Nothing broken with that.

Turn me into a 400-lb Hobgoblin with a 7-ft long sword, and I can find them even in a big house.

Red names...funny...you realize I play permadeath? I'm a huge advocate for tactics and strategic play. And as a player who sneaks more in full plate than most players do in leather, I know it's not broken.
lol...
So, you say that sneaking isn't broken merely because a rogue has sneak attack? That just seems to be more flawed reasoning.

As for the 2/5ths of a ton Hobgob, I highly doubt that your weight and weapon size make it so you can always find a silent and invis person within a large house. You have to keep in mind that creatures can still move while hiding. All they have to do is go to an area you've already covered. Your tank approach won't do much for you when it comes to finding silent and invisible creatures. Remember my pixie analogy? ...

As for your full plate sneaking, I bet you don't really use it like a rogue does. From your 400 lbs. hobgob, I'm guessing you hide until you get close, then start swinging to kill. Using that tactic, you wouldn't be able to notice the issue that Ghoste has stated...

parvo
10-01-2007, 11:45 AM
The notion was to run away to hide and lose aggro, not sneak back up, but whatever. The point is that in order for the rogue to lose aggro he has to run so far away that any character could do the same thing... it has nothing to do with hide/move silently or sneaking at that point.


Not without ripping the whole house apart.

You must not have small children. You'd be amazed at places they can find to hide in a typical house. And they don't have 40+ hide and move silently scores.


Sneak works fine. It's the once found and resneak that doesn't work all that well. It is extremely difficult to shake aggro with stealth.

Children get bonuses to thier sneak and hide similar to halflings. My son (who just turned six) has two ranks in both, a 12 dex and the +2/+4 Kender racial bonus. That gives him a 4/6 if he doesn't use an action boost (which he picked up when he dinged age 3). I have one rank each of spot/listen (USMC training). I also have a 14 Wisdom due to aging and Ranger skill boost I picked up from hunting deer. That gives me a 3/3 unboosted. Obviously, if I am not alerted to his presence he can remain hidden. but, if I know he's hiding, I can boost and find him.

The realistic example shown above proves that sneak is not broken. Some players justt don't understand the mechanics...

Raithe
10-01-2007, 11:50 AM
It is aggro that is broken, not stealth. Stealth is one of the best working mechanics of the game. Invisibility works extremely well too.

One of the parts of aggro that is broken is the develepors have given mobs a radius of omniscience concerning the location of mobs/characters they have on their aggro list - regardless of line of sight. The other big part of aggro that is broken is that mobs tend to know who damaged them and how, regardless of whether that character is even present.

The way it should work is much more complicated than that. Mobs should generally only have a knowledge of the last LOS location of creatures/characters they have on their aggro list. And just because they run into someone's wall of fire shouldn't mean they automatically come running at the caster who is 3 rooms away, around a corner. And mobs who hadn't spawned yet should by no means know who to attack when they run into an AoE damager.

Once again, aggro is broken, not stealth.

parvo
10-01-2007, 11:52 AM
lol...
So, you say that sneaking isn't broken merely because a rogue has sneak attack? That just seems to be more flawed reasoning.

As for the 2/5ths of a ton Hobgob, I highly doubt that your weight and weapon size make it so you can always find a silent and invis person within a large house. You have to keep in mind that creatures can still move while hiding. All they have to do is go to an area you've already covered. Your tank approach won't do much for you when it comes to finding silent and invisible creatures. Remember my pixie analogy? ...

As for your full plate sneaking, I bet you don't really use it like a rogue does. From your 400 lbs. hobgob, I'm guessing you hide until you get close, then start swinging to kill. Using that tactic, you wouldn't be able to notice the issue that Ghoste has stated...

The reason I haven't noticed the so-called issue is, my Rogues aren't invisible, out-of-balance washing machines on spin cycle. If my intent is to be stealthy, I don't bump into enemies. If the washing machine wanted to, he could go into rinse mode, and slip right past the Hobos.

parvo
10-01-2007, 11:54 AM
It is aggro that is broken, not stealth. Stealth is one of the best working mechanics of the game. Invisibility works extremely well too.

One of the parts of aggro that is broken is the develepors have given mobs a radius of omniscience concerning the location of mobs/characters they have on their aggro list - regardless of line of sight. The other big part of aggro that is broken is that mobs tend to know who damaged them and how, regardless of whether that character is even present.

The way it should work is much more complicated than that. Mobs should generally only have a knowledge of the last LOS location of creatures/characters they have on their aggro list. And just because they run into someone's wall of fire shouldn't mean they automatically come running at the caster who is 3 rooms away, around a corner. And mobs who hadn't spawned yet should by no means know who to attack when they run into an AoE damager.

Once again, aggro is broken, not stealth.

Aggro is an issue that I can get on borad with. Aggro in DDO is too simplistic. Funny thing is, the best aggro AI in the game is Zombies which aren't supposed to be good at it.

oronisi
10-01-2007, 12:07 PM
I just don't get it. You want to be able to bump into mobs and stay stealthed? You bumped into the mob, it knows your there, it chases you down trying to attack you. That's pretty damn good AI actually.

You're complaining about players acting like they shoudn't and creatures acting like they should. Makes no sense.

No no no. You shouldn't be able to bump into mobs and stay stealthed. This has nothing to do with mobs detecting you. People make mistakes, and stealth should not be 100% guaranteed invulnerability.

BUT, you should be able to restealth. Yes, the mob now knows SOMETHING is in his dungeon, but he doesn't know where. The problem is that currently, once you are detected, you are done. They now have a lock on you forever.

ehondajim
10-01-2007, 12:10 PM
Are you sure it doesn't work? Check this out. Oh and are you WF there are minuses to your skill checks if you have Addy plating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbEczBZ9hvY&mode=related&search=

oronisi
10-01-2007, 12:10 PM
It is aggro that is broken, not stealth. Stealth is one of the best working mechanics of the game. Invisibility works extremely well too.

One of the parts of aggro that is broken is the develepors have given mobs a radius of omniscience concerning the location of mobs/characters they have on their aggro list - regardless of line of sight. The other big part of aggro that is broken is that mobs tend to know who damaged them and how, regardless of whether that character is even present.

The way it should work is much more complicated than that. Mobs should generally only have a knowledge of the last LOS location of creatures/characters they have on their aggro list. And just because they run into someone's wall of fire shouldn't mean they automatically come running at the caster who is 3 rooms away, around a corner. And mobs who hadn't spawned yet should by no means know who to attack when they run into an AoE damager.

Once again, aggro is broken, not stealth.

I could get on board with this idea. We should devise a way to really test it. Somehow de-aggroing once stealthed, while remaining stealthed. Can we do that? Wouldn't diplomacy un-stealth you? how about un-invis? Also, would we need more than 1 person in the dungeon? At one point, if you were soloing and got on a mob's aggro list, you remained there forever.

parvo
10-01-2007, 12:20 PM
No no no. You shouldn't be able to bump into mobs and stay stealthed. This has nothing to do with mobs detecting you. People make mistakes, and stealth should not be 100% guaranteed invulnerability.

BUT, you should be able to restealth. Yes, the mob now knows SOMETHING is in his dungeon, but he doesn't know where. The problem is that currently, once you are detected, you are done. They now have a lock on you forever.

It's not forever. If you get far enough away, the mob will forget you are even there. If you want to get far enough away, you need two things:
--Enough room in the instance
--Enough speed to outdistance the enemy

20 feet away, like the OP demonstrated is not far enough.

parvo
10-01-2007, 12:24 PM
Are you sure it doesn't work? Check this out. Oh and are you WF there are minuses to your skill checks if you have Addy plating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbEczBZ9hvY&mode=related&search=

You're showing a rogue that knows what a rogue is supposed to do. We want stealth fixed for rogues that repeatedly bump right into the face of enemies!

Riddikulus
10-01-2007, 12:26 PM
Are you sure it doesn't work? Check this out. Oh and are you WF there are minuses to your skill checks if you have Addy plating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbEczBZ9hvY&mode=related&search=
Stealth itself works fine... that's not the topic of this thread.

Once you get aggro however, stealth is very broken.

One clip in the video showed him opening up the chest in Brutes Barracks... as soon as he does that the fire giant a few feet away aggros, then the clip is changed. He doesn't show you him running away from the giant and to the shrine... at that point there is absolutely no where in the quest that he can go to shake the aggro of that giant.

parvo
10-01-2007, 12:34 PM
Stealth itself works fine... that's not the topic of this thread.

Once you get aggro however, stealth is very broken.

One clip in the video showed him opening up the chest in Brutes Barracks... as soon as he does that the fire giant a few feet away aggros, then the clip is changed. He doesn't show you him running away from the giant and to the shrine... at that point there is absolutely no where in the quest that he can go to shake the aggro of that giant.

He is a she and if you really think you should be able to repeatedly run into a mobs face without breaking stealth, well...whatever...

And again, you can restealth if you get far enough away from the mob. Being able to re-stealth twenty feet from a mob would be ridiculous.

Riddikulus
10-01-2007, 12:41 PM
He is a she and if you really think you should be able to repeatedly run into a mobs face without breaking stealth, well...whatever...
Nope, never said that.


And again, you can restealth if you get far enough away from the mob. Being able to re-stealth twenty feet from a mob would be ridiculous.
I'll have to try it out sometime... kill everything in BB up to the pit, and then see if I can run back to the beginning of the quest and restealth after aggroing the pit. I'm pretty sure I'll find them still throwing boulders at me fruitlessly.

parvo
10-01-2007, 12:47 PM
Nope, never said that.


I'll have to try it out sometime... kill everything in BB up to the pit, and then see if I can run back to the beginning of the quest and restealth after aggroing the pit. I'm pretty sure I'll find them still throwing boulders at me fruitlessly.

I don't know about the giant Caves, but you can outrun aggro if you are fast enough and there is enough room. My guess is there isn't enough room in the Giant Caves because the Giant Caves are kinda tiny caves...

Rissten
10-01-2007, 12:56 PM
I've stealth right up to things an bumped them and haven't been seen on a level 6 ranger 29 Hide (with Camo) 14 MS and, didn't pull any agro. I tried Shooting them with a bow from a distance hit sprint boost and got out of thier sight with camo on and hide. The mob ran straight to me. end result Stealth is fine until you break it with an attack or inpead the monsters normal patrol ie: being right in front of him and he walks into you. I've even stealthed up to undead!

Borrigain
10-01-2007, 12:59 PM
Yes, you can lose aggro if you run far enough away. Anyone can.

But......

The point is that a Bad-@$$ rogue or ranger should not have to run as far as an out-of-balance washing machine. He/she "should" be able to do it once LOS is broken.

That is what the problem is. AI seeing thru walls and behind boxes. Like when the beholders in Von3 used to be able to blast you thru 600m of solid rock. They fixed that for particulate effects, but not for localization of aggro.

And yes, the aggro thing does not just apply to stealth, as people have mentioned, but also to casters. For example, recently, we laid in an ambush at a right angle corner. Caster (well beyond corner) lays in CK and wall of fire, tanks take position to attack mobs just their side of corner, rogue goes and gets aggro, runs mobs back to attack point. Mobs hit CK and fire and instantly aggro on caster, who they can't see, and is down the hall with cleric about 50m. How the heck did they know WHERE that caster was to make a beeline to him?

Fix the aggro and stealth will be a beautiful thing.

I'm with you Ghoste,
Borr.

Quietstorm
10-01-2007, 01:01 PM
Children get bonuses to thier sneak and hide similar to halflings. My son (who just turned six) has two ranks in both, a 12 dex and the +2/+4 Kender racial bonus. That gives him a 4/6 if he doesn't use an action boost (which he picked up when he dinged age 3). I have one rank each of spot/listen (USMC training). I also have a 14 Wisdom due to aging and Ranger skill boost I picked up from hunting deer. That gives me a 3/3 unboosted. Obviously, if I am not alerted to his presence he can remain hidden. but, if I know he's hiding, I can boost and find him.

The realistic example shown above proves that sneak is not broken. Some players justt don't understand the mechanics...

ROFL!!!!!!

parvo
10-01-2007, 01:42 PM
Yes, you can lose aggro if you run far enough away. Anyone can.

But......

The point is that a Bad-@$$ rogue or ranger should not have to run as far as an out-of-balance washing machine. He/she "should" be able to do it once LOS is broken.

That is what the problem is. AI seeing thru walls and behind boxes. Like when the beholders in Von3 used to be able to blast you thru 600m of solid rock. They fixed that for particulate effects, but not for localization of aggro.

And yes, the aggro thing does not just apply to stealth, as people have mentioned, but also to casters. For example, recently, we laid in an ambush at a right angle corner. Caster (well beyond corner) lays in CK and wall of fire, tanks take position to attack mobs just their side of corner, rogue goes and gets aggro, runs mobs back to attack point. Mobs hit CK and fire and instantly aggro on caster, who they can't see, and is down the hall with cleric about 50m. How the heck did they know WHERE that caster was to make a beeline to him?

Fix the aggro and stealth will be a beautiful thing.

I'm with you Ghoste,
Borr.

If you could run out of sight and restealth, it would bo horribly exploited. Any stealthy character could solo a great deal of content well above their level. I sure as hell don't want the mobs doing it to me.

Riddikulus
10-01-2007, 01:51 PM
If you could run out of sight and restealth, it would bo horribly exploited. Any stealthy character could solo a great deal of content well above their level.
Completely untrue... red names will make sure of it. :D


I sure as hell don't want the mobs doing it to me.
They do now. If they run and stealth you will lose targeting (unless your spot/listen is really high). Ashame it doesn't work both ways.

oronisi
10-01-2007, 02:53 PM
If you could run out of sight and restealth, it would bo horribly exploited. Any stealthy character could solo a great deal of content well above their level. I sure as hell don't want the mobs doing it to me.

Solo how? Almost every single quest in this game involves defeating in combat a red named or a large deal of fodder enemies. Just like a large number of chests are locked until you defeat the enemies.

Also, they already do that. Hobgoblin Assassins ring a bell? If not, go do Kobold's new ringleader. They pop in and out of existance instead of using any real stealth effects. They aren't warping to another dimension...they are like CR 2 or 3. When the disappear not only are they not targettable, they are invulnerable.

Mad_Bombardier
10-01-2007, 03:30 PM
It is aggro that is broken, not stealth. Stealth is one of the best working mechanics of the game. Invisibility works extremely well too.

One of the parts of aggro that is broken is the develepors have given mobs a radius of omniscience concerning the location of mobs/characters they have on their aggro list - regardless of line of sight. The other big part of aggro that is broken is that mobs tend to know who damaged them and how, regardless of whether that character is even present.

The way it should work is much more complicated than that. Mobs should generally only have a knowledge of the last LOS location of creatures/characters they have on their aggro list. And just because they run into someone's wall of fire shouldn't mean they automatically come running at the caster who is 3 rooms away, around a corner. And mobs who hadn't spawned yet should by no means know who to attack when they run into an AoE damager.

Once again, aggro is broken, not stealth.Well said.

Ghoste
10-01-2007, 03:37 PM
Im sorry Ghoste but what you are asking for isnt realistic. You cannot hide when a creature is looking straight at you from 10 feet away; its common sense.
Looking straight at what?!!! That's the whole point. Invisibility means there is nothing to frickin look at. What's so hard to understand about that?

I completely understand not being able to hide again once spotted, but I'm talking about a situation where I have not been seen or heard, just felt for a brief moment. Re-read every post I have put in this thread. I keep bringing up that point and you keep ignoring it. This is not a two way dialogue. Knock it off please.

I understand not being able to just go into sneak mode when they are looking right at you, that was never the issue I was talking about. In PnP there are only two ways to do that: hide in plain sight - a feat, and the spell invisibility, which is what I've been friggin talking about.

Invisibility adds 20 to your hide skill, this is because you can still potentially bump into things, or stir up dust or water, giving away your location. But they can definitely not look right at you, making it possible to hide from them, meaning they are not "looking right at you" when you are trying to hide again.

What is unreasonable is thinking invisibility only works when they aren't looking at you to begin with. That is common sense.

Beherit_Baphomar
10-01-2007, 03:43 PM
Ive read two pages of this post and watched both the videos....and I cant read any more....please, someone tell me that the people saying "Ghoste, you're being unreasonable" or "Stealth works just fine" have stopped saying that...if they've started to understand what yer saying Ghoste then I can read the rest of the post.

Its really making my head hurt that people are not understanding the OP and the problem...

Beherit_Baphomar
10-01-2007, 03:46 PM
DAMMIT!

I read the last page and JEBUS H CHRISTMAS people....

That is all.

Ghoste, yer a patient man...I woulda gave up long ago......

oronisi
10-01-2007, 03:47 PM
Ive read two pages of this post and watched both the videos....and I cant read any more....please, someone tell me that the people saying "Ghoste, you're being unreasonable" or "Stealth works just fine" have stopped saying that...if they've started to understand what yer saying Ghoste then I can read the rest of the post.

Its really making my head hurt that people are not understanding the OP and the problem...

Nah, they haven't stopped yet. Actually, someone wants to divert the idea and point the issue at aggro rather than stealth. I might buy into that idea, but either way, they devs can see the problem in the video, and address it in their aggro or stealth system, wherever it resides. All I care about is getting the issue fixed, and the issue is accurately depicted in the video by Ghoste.

parvo
10-01-2007, 04:21 PM
You've got to be kidding. There is absolutely no issue with stealth. He repeatedly bumped into the mobs! That's not stealth. If he wanted to, he could have walked right by them.

What you want is to attack a mob run ten feet away and then get another backstab. That's not reasonable. And no, the Bugbear Assasin's don't do that. They disapear, but don't get another sneak attack unless the player completely ignores them. i'm not sure they get sneak attacks at all. In fact, a combat with Bugbear Assasin looks a lot like the video-of-non-proofage. Except the players and mobs roles are reversed and the players get 200x the number of attacks the Bugbear does.

Spookydodger
10-01-2007, 04:27 PM
I think the primary point of all this is that if you aggro a monster, and ditch them (hiding, invisible, etc) they seem to know exactly where you are, regardless if you are hiding.

And I think they don't so much not come all the way after you because of losing you, but because the tracking AI gets hung up on too much pathing and they simply can't navigate to you.


Well I dont use stealth all the time but you can definately lose them after they hear you, easily, just by moving fast enough away till you are out of earshot. EG: the crucible, underwtaer key area. I can 99% of the time get the attention of a single Knoll ( 1 of 6) and pull him around corner by letting him hear me moving. When he comes to investigate I just back up (faster sneaking enhancement helps and haste) and then pounce when the others cannot see. Repeat 5 times and you have a key and horn. But the point is that at any given time I can move far enough away where he loses interest. This is on elite as well so.....

But there has to be some compromise for gameplay. If the rules were the way the O.P. wants them every quest would be a cakewalk for a rogue cept when they see invisable. If you had a 30 plus hide, move silent, then you would be totally invisable. The Original poster hit the Hobgoblin, duh what do you expect.

Not saying that the sneak mechanic couldnt be better, but your confusing (like so many others) PnP rules and applications of DM controlled monsters with DDO and a universal AI for all. Maybe when the holodeck is invented sneak will be more realistic.

Raithe
10-01-2007, 04:42 PM
Its really making my head hurt that people are not understanding the OP and the problem...

From what I've read it seems most people know exactly what the OP is talking about. There are some that disagree, and then there are some that don't think it's the real issue. I am one of the latter. If I were to make a judgement call, however, I would probably disagree that breaking LOS should allow you to lose all aggro with a re-stealth. The only part I think may be missing from invisiblity is a 50% concealment (similar to displacement) miss chance if you have aggro while still under the spell.

I think if aggro was fixed, re-stealthing while staying out of LOS and hearing range of those hunting you would become quite conceivable.

EDIT: I would add that LOS needs a limiting distance put in. Getting the aggro from a beholder and then getting hit from clear across the dungeon simply because a straight line can be drawn between the 2 points without intersecting a wall is frustrating and ridiculous.

parvo
10-01-2007, 05:20 PM
What would you do if you could re-stealth? You'd walk right up and backstab/trip/sunder/sap the creature and then re-stealth after it recovered. You'd exploit the hell out of it which is exactly why stealth should not work the way the OP wants.

Talon_Moonshadow
10-01-2007, 05:21 PM
Yea Ghoste is right on this one, I play mainly Rogues. There is no roll involved with Search and Spot (and almost 100% certain with listen either). Once you have their attention it is damn near impossible to loose them.

From what I have seen it IS IMPOSSIBLE.
When they made the changes to cloudkill and agro, someone mentioned casting CK and DDing right away....and the monsters making a beeline right for him. never confirmed this one myself, but I believe it.

It should be possible to run around a corner and sneak or go invisible and have the baddies run right by you.....this is a basic tactic in every movie/TV/Book etc....it is sorta possible in real life and should be possible in DDO.
Breaking LOS should prevent them form knowing your location....period. They should have to reaquire that knowledge somehow.
Have them go to the last post they saw you, and search. If they see you, great....if not, they should give up and go find something else to do.
Oh, and no instant knowlege from being attacked either....the only knowlege should be that they were attacked from an unknown location.......time to search for the attacker.....if cannot find, stop searching.....if attacked again, search again.
Make they search area large is ok, but no automatic special clairvoyant knowledge like we have now.
group knowledge is ok.......yelling to put all baddies on alert and having friends tell you where they are is ok....(for smart monsters anyway......slimes do not warn other slimes......spiders do not warn other spiders.....neither of them know what a cleric or wizard is either by the way......or should have learned the tactice of attacking from behind either.

Talon_Moonshadow
10-01-2007, 05:27 PM
Well I dont use stealth all the time but you can definately lose them after they hear you, easily, just by moving fast enough away till you are out of earshot. EG: the crucible, underwtaer key area. I can 99% of the time get the attention of a single Knoll ( 1 of 6) and pull him around corner by letting him hear me moving. When he comes to investigate I just back up (faster sneaking enhancement helps and haste) and then pounce when the others cannot see. Repeat 5 times and you have a key and horn. But the point is that at any given time I can move far enough away where he loses interest. This is on elite as well so.....

But there has to be some compromise for gameplay. If the rules were the way the O.P. wants them every quest would be a cakewalk for a rogue cept when they see invisable. If you had a 30 plus hide, move silent, then you would be totally invisable. The Original poster hit the Hobgoblin, duh what do you expect.

Not saying that the sneak mechanic couldnt be better, but your confusing (like so many others) PnP rules and applications of DM controlled monsters with DDO and a universal AI for all. Maybe when the holodeck is invented sneak will be more realistic.

Good to know info.....from what you said, and from what I read in a Dev's post I assum he did not actually see you. Apparently hearing you only puts them in search mode....but does not tell them exactly where you are. I've also seen Invisibility cause a Kobold to randomly attack the air looking for me as I sat unmoving in a corner after I ran past him earlier......well, he attacked ramdomly in a straight line toward me until he did find me anyway.....but apparently he did not know my exact location at first.

lasra
10-01-2007, 05:36 PM
I think I have figured it out.

They stealth patched a "Smell Check" into the monsters. Once they have sensed you, regardless of invisibility/sneak/hide/move silently, they just follow their noses.

I vote for a new ranger/druid spell "Mask Scent" or "Musk of the Wild."

Riddikulus
10-01-2007, 05:36 PM
Good to know info.....from what you said, and from what I read in a Dev's post I assum he did not actually see you. Apparently hearing you only puts them in search mode....but does not tell them exactly where you are. I've also seen Invisibility cause a Kobold to randomly attack the air looking for me as I sat unmoving in a corner after I ran past him earlier......well, he attacked ramdomly in a straight line toward me until he did find me anyway.....but apparently he did not know my exact location at first.
That's not how it's working.

The mob goes into search mode and gets periodic (1 per round?) "pings" with your _exact_ location.

If at any time you stop moving you will be instantly found.

Talon_Moonshadow
10-01-2007, 05:39 PM
LoL sure can't.

I would also like to point out that even once spotted, the monster has to physically catch up to me and swing at me close enough that he gets an attack roll in order to actually get me out of sneak. Even if they "spot" me for a brief second, if I'm quick enough to get away they do de-aggro pretty quickly.

Don't forget that sometimes they can hit you from 10-20 feet away though.
This is more noticible when a ranger is running backwards, but it can happen while stealthed too......yeah I realise it is probably a lag or buffer type issue, but it is real annoying.

Jebin
10-01-2007, 05:45 PM
I didn't read every post, but I checked the entire thread with the search function and didn't find a single mention of this. The problem I see with your demonstrations, Ghoste, is that you chose Bugbears to demonstrate.

Bugbears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/Bugbear.htm) have the extraordinary ability called Scent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent).

Scent allows them to detect anyone within 30 feet, and once within 5 feet they can pin point exactly where they are. Your demonstration videos seem to demonstrate the bugbears using this ability.

You bump into them (inside 5 feet) and they smell you close up. They realize you're there and not some random smell on the breeze, and what you smell like. As long as you stayed near by (inside 30 feet) they kept coming to wear you were following your scent.

That part where you climbed off the ladder, that's just a bug with the AI not being able to move in 3D. So I wouldn't be too concerned about that, one of them decided to go back, the other stayed where the last trail of your scent was. You came back, he noticed your scent going somewhere else, of course he's going to follow it again. You came close to the second one to regain it's attention because it could now smell you again.

Other enemies with extraordinary senses include:
Spiders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousSpider.htm) and Scorpians (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm) with Tremor Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#tremorsense) (Any thing touching the ground within 60 feet.)
Ooze (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm) and Dragons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) with Blindsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#blindsightAndBlindsense) (Anything within 60 feet.)
Wolves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm), Worgs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/worg.htm), Winter Wolves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/winterWolf.htm), Dogs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm), Cats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm), Hyena (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hyena.htm), Lions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lion.htm), Leopards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leopard.htm), Mules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mule.htm), Horses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/horse.htm), Apes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ape.htm), Bears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBlack.htm), Minotaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/minotaur.htm), and Trolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm) have Scent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent).


Looking straight at what?!!! That's the whole point. Invisibility means there is nothing to frickin look at. What's so hard to understand about that?

The part where the Ogre was shooting could be argued as well. Ogre's have darkvision, and although Invisibility is suppose to mask you against darkvision, it does make seeing the dust/pebbles you kick up while moving easy to see. That is also ignoring the fact that in your video you were trying to hide in a brightly lit area (3 eyes).


I understand not being able to just go into sneak mode when they are looking right at you, that was never the issue I was talking about. In PnP there are only two ways to do that: hide in plain sight - a feat, and the spell invisibility, which is what I've been friggin talking about.

Invisibility adds 20 to your hide skill, this is because you can still potentially bump into things, or stir up dust or water, giving away your location. But they can definitely not look right at you, making it possible to hide from them, meaning they are not "looking right at you" when you are trying to hide again.

What is unreasonable is thinking invisibility only works when they aren't looking at you to begin with. That is common sense.

Well, the way it is now, Invisibility is ONLY a bonus of 20 to your hide skill. If you expect it to do anything else (Like allowing you to hide while a monster is watching), you'll be dissappointed. Invisibility is not like it's pen and paper counter part that allowed you to effectively 'hide in plain sight'.

Is that a bug? Sure if they claimed it worked as it did in pen and paper, but I don't believe they do. So I believe you'd get the old 'Working as Intended' line and be brushed off.

I don't have a high stealth character, or else I'd give this a try. Find a human enemy so you know there are no special senses. The explosives warehouse solo quest would be a good choice and recheck your assumptions.

Then try the following: Agro an enemy, cast hold person/monster/hypnotize something to hold it in place. (The Dance duration might be shortest) Cast invisibility, go into stealth mode, and then move out of line of sight. Around a corner, behind a large box ect. Stay out of line of sight and move to another point where you are far enough that normal detection is impossible yet you can watch where you first left line of sight. Then see what happens when the enemy is freed to look for you.

Once that's completed, kill the enemy and find another. (Or leave the instance and use the same one) This time, agro the enemy, hold it in place, run out of line of sight, and THEN cast Invisibility and go into stealth mode. Move again to a place where you can watch where you broke line of sight and wait for what happens.

All things being equal, the results should be the same. If the monster bee lines towards you, there's definately a problem.

Talon_Moonshadow
10-01-2007, 05:45 PM
That's not how it's working.

The mob goes into search mode and gets periodic (1 per round?) "pings" with your _exact_ location.

If at any time you stop moving you will be instantly found.

It was a long time ago when i did this....so it might have changed. I think my muti-classed toon was capped at lvl10 and doing Steathy repossesion.....I cast Invisibility and ran to the end to get the Gem.......then ran to a corner and sneaked again. (might have fought some things first and recast Invis etc.)
this kobold runs into the room after i am restealthed and proceeds to attack the air again and again........in a slow steady progression right toward me.
Maybe it was sonar or something....each attack gave him a better and better idea of where I was even though I was invisible and not moving.
he was agroed on me from before, but had never known seen me uninvisible....only heard me running.

Riddikulus
10-01-2007, 07:40 PM
Well, the way it is now, Invisibility is ONLY a bonus of 20 to your hide skill. If you expect it to do anything else (Like allowing you to hide while a monster is watching), you'll be dissappointed. Invisibility is not like it's pen and paper counter part that allowed you to effectively 'hide in plain sight'.
IMO Invisibility and Hide are two entirely different things.

Hide appears to only be in effect when you Sneak.

Invisibility is always in effect, whether Sneaking or not, until the magic is broken, so it's more like a -20 to the mobs Spot instead of a +20 to your Hide.

They play quite a bit differently.

Pharaz
10-01-2007, 07:56 PM
I have done the stealthy repossesion quest and ran through invisible. When I got to the 2 levers across from each near the end I ran out of invis clicks so I recalled and got it recharged at the tavern. When I went back in they were still agro and bee lined right to me even when I was nowhere near them. I was at the start invisible and doing a few buffs when a few dozen ran down the hall straight to me. Tell me how where they following me?

Ghoste
10-01-2007, 08:53 PM
Im sorry Ghoste but what you are asking for isnt realistic. You cannot hide when a creature is looking straight at you from 10 feet away; its common sense. Sneak is the ability to use your surrounding to your benefit to hide, via means of shadows, camoflage, smoke screens, hiding behind things etc....

Yes I agree that invisability should make you 100% invisable.....in Pnp. Its well known that at some point the devs took away this power from players because it was a major exploit. Now it boosts your hide skill by "X" amount. You used to be able to run to end of quest kill boss and be done. Or get chest or whatever. (Giant Caves major loot exploit) It cannot be 100% simply for the health of the game and community.

But Im confused... how is it that you hid after you bumped into the hobgoblin( orc or whatever)? Did you go outta line of sight, drink invisability, then go into sneak? Because that would be a realistic way to hide after getting aggroe. If not then there is no way that stealth implies the ability to "hide in plain site". It would be nice if AI couldnt "see" through walls as much though. That effects many areas of the game. Its hard to see your video clearly as well so maybe Im missing something.

In combat im pretty sure you can hide if someone else has aggroe. Potentially if they(team member) died and you were still hidden the monster would go away. I wanna test this now....anyone know for sure?
Dude, for the frickin umpteenth time I'm not asking for it.

Summary of what I'm saying: the Devs said it works this way, look at this, it doesn't work that way.

They have said invisibility means they need to make a spot check. You dont like it that way? Fair enough, take it up with them, not me.

You don't think it would result in a balanced game? Fair enough. I haven't said one way or another. How many chances have you had though to read what I'm saying? Too many. Get there, buddy.

Ghoste
10-01-2007, 09:05 PM
I didn't read every post, but I checked the entire thread with the search function and didn't find a single mention of this. The problem I see with your demonstrations, Ghoste, is that you chose Bugbears to demonstrate.

Bugbears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/Bugbear.htm) have the extraordinary ability called Scent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent).
The first one, that is a possibility if they have implemented scent. Don't know if they have.

The second video was hobgoblins, not bugbbears.

The part where the Ogre was shooting could be argued as well. Ogre's have darkvision, and although Invisibility is suppose to mask you against darkvision, it does make seeing the dust/pebbles you kick up while moving easy to see. That is also ignoring the fact that in your video you were trying to hide in a brightly lit area (3 eyes).Eladrin addressed that in the thread I quoted. That ogre would have had to have a spot of 46 or greater to accomplish that.

Well, the way it is now, Invisibility is ONLY a bonus of 20 to your hide skill. If you expect it to do anything else (Like allowing you to hide while a monster is watching), you'll be dissappointed. Invisibility is not like it's pen and paper counter part that allowed you to effectively 'hide in plain sight'.
No? Eladrin disagrees with you, got to that thread I quoted at the beginning. He said invisibility means you are ALWAYS considered hiding.

Is that a bug? Sure if they claimed it worked as it did in pen and paper, but I don't believe they do. So I believe you'd get the old 'Working as Intended' line and be brushed off.Again, see the same quote and thread you missed before.

I don't have a high stealth character, or else I'd give this a try. Find a human enemy so you know there are no special senses. The explosives warehouse solo quest would be a good choice and recheck your assumptions.Fair enough, I'll post ten videos with various demonstrations, and still not everybody will be satisfied. Whatever, a little bit of skepticism is a good thing. I have seen this bug for a long time, many other people have. It's not a big deal, it's still easy enough to sneak by stuff. But simply put, it's not working as stated. If they don't want to fix it, wont bother me much. this is just an FYI post for them.

parvo
10-01-2007, 10:36 PM
Well then. Ghoste, you should put your energy toward something useful that does need tweaking. Like Bluff.

Raithe
10-01-2007, 11:35 PM
Some notes, cause I think a lot of people are confused.

1) In the current game mechanics, once you are on a particular monster's aggro list you cannot sneak or invis around them. They do not need to make any spot or listen checks, because you are on their aggro list already. This is working as intended.

2) The fact that they also know exactly where anyone on their aggro list is, and will attempt to path to them regardless of LOS/smell/hearing & distance considerations may be working as intended as well, though I think it is bad game design.

3) Invisibility is more than just a +20 bonus to the hide score. While invisible, you are considered to have a hide score of 20 and a nonexistent move silent score while not in stealth mode. In stealth mode, it adds 20 to your hide score. Invisible creature's hide scores are not affected by environmental conditions. And all of these statements are void if the spotter can see invisible creatures.

4) Just because you are on some mob's aggro list does not mean you can't sneak by others. Each mob has their own separate lists, though mobs in close vicinity to each other often share their lists with each other.

Snike
10-02-2007, 12:05 AM
3) Invisibility is more than just a +20 bonus to the hide score. While invisible, you are considered to have a hide score of 20 and a nonexistent move silent score while not in stealth mode. In stealth mode, it adds 20 to your hide score. Invisible creature's hide scores are not affected by environmental conditions. And all of these statements are void if the spotter can see invisible creatures.

From what I understand from the post the Dev was talking about stealth and invis is that you do indeed benefit from move silently while invis'd and not actively hiding... And I seem to notice a difference between my rogue and wizard while using invis.

Ghoste
10-02-2007, 01:20 AM
Well then. Ghoste, you should put your energy toward something useful that does need tweaking. Like Bluff.
My only roguish character only has one level of rogue and no points in bluff. So I have no idea what may or may not be working with bluff.

oronisi
10-02-2007, 08:39 AM
I have done the stealthy repossesion quest and ran through invisible. When I got to the 2 levers across from each near the end I ran out of invis clicks so I recalled and got it recharged at the tavern. When I went back in they were still agro and bee lined right to me even when I was nowhere near them. I was at the start invisible and doing a few buffs when a few dozen ran down the hall straight to me. Tell me how where they following me?

THIS is a great example of the problem. Too bad some people are so hung up in their own train of thought to comprehend what you said and how it's a problem.

parvo
10-02-2007, 11:32 AM
THIS is a great example of the problem. Too bad some people are so hung up in their own train of thought to comprehend what you said and how it's a problem.

The quest is called Stealthy Reposession. It's not called Non-Stealthy-Exploit-The-Recall-Out-Mechanic Reposession. It can be completed by any character with enough stealth.

oronisi
10-02-2007, 01:14 PM
The quest is called Stealthy Reposession. It's not called Non-Stealthy-Exploit-The-Recall-Out-Mechanic Reposession. It can be completed by any character with enough stealth.

Forget for a second how many ways you can think of exploiting a non-existant game mechanic and use logic. Should a mob be able to know exactly where their enemy is, even after they've teleported to another dimensional plane (Dim Door / Teleport / Greater Teleport) ?? They should not know their enemy's exact position after using magic to move into another plane of reality.

The problem is that in DDO, they do. Once you have established aggro, your enemy knows exactly where you are until the end of time. That is broken, poor logic. It can be fixed.

Yes, it can be used to exploit, but guess what, the poor logic that we have right now is already being exploited! Really you ask? Yes, yes it is. Example #1. The dragon raid. You are now able to run the bases as before, establishing aggro, then moving to a completely unreachable point for the mobs. They will maintain aggro on you forever. Now another person can come up to the platform and wittle away the pillar without so much as a sideways glance from the mobs. They are so stuck on their poor aggro AI that they do not attack a person right next to them WHEN NOBODY ELSE IS DAMAGING THEM OR INTERACTING WITH THEM IN ANY WAY.

So please, stop trying to turn everything into a 'but you can exploit it' whine-fest. You can exploit anything in a game like this if you put your mind to it.

GlassCannon
10-02-2007, 01:17 PM
But their weapons still have an aggro rating that applies, and the monsters still know EXACTLY WHERE TO LOOK AT ALL TIMES.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Stealth is still broken.:p

parvo
10-02-2007, 02:52 PM
Forget for a second how many ways you can think of exploiting a non-existant game mechanic and use logic. Should a mob be able to know exactly where their enemy is, even after they've teleported to another dimensional plane (Dim Door / Teleport / Greater Teleport) ?? They should not know their enemy's exact position after using magic to move into another plane of reality.

The problem is that in DDO, they do. Once you have established aggro, your enemy knows exactly where you are until the end of time. That is broken, poor logic. It can be fixed.

Yes, it can be used to exploit, but guess what, the poor logic that we have right now is already being exploited! Really you ask? Yes, yes it is. Example #1. The dragon raid. You are now able to run the bases as before, establishing aggro, then moving to a completely unreachable point for the mobs. They will maintain aggro on you forever. Now another person can come up to the platform and wittle away the pillar without so much as a sideways glance from the mobs. They are so stuck on their poor aggro AI that they do not attack a person right next to them WHEN NOBODY ELSE IS DAMAGING THEM OR INTERACTING WITH THEM IN ANY WAY.

So please, stop trying to turn everything into a 'but you can exploit it' whine-fest. You can exploit anything in a game like this if you put your mind to it.

What you're saying is aggro is broken. Not stealth. We already agreed that aggro could use some modification.

Ghoste
10-02-2007, 03:03 PM
The quest is called Stealthy Reposession. It's not called Non-Stealthy-Exploit-The-Recall-Out-Mechanic Reposession. It can be completed by any character with enough stealth.
Call it an exploit or not, again, the devs disagree with you and have said it should work that way. Perhaps you should spend your energy taking that up with them.

oronisi
10-02-2007, 03:50 PM
What you're saying is aggro is broken. Not stealth. We already agreed that aggro could use some modification.

I don't care what you want to call it, what ghoste took the time to put in video for the devs depicts an issue that should be addressed by the devs. It's up to the devs that know their own code (hopefully) to determine if the issue is only with stealth, only with aggro management, with both, with some other AI engine, etc.

parvo
10-02-2007, 04:10 PM
I don't care what you want to call it, what ghoste took the time to put in video for the devs depicts an issue that should be addressed by the devs. It's up to the devs that know their own code (hopefully) to determine if the issue is only with stealth, only with aggro management, with both, with some other AI engine, etc.

The devs are probably a lot like mostt of the folks. They look at this thread, the video and everything else in context and then they say "what's the problem?". Fact is, stealth works great in DDO, better than any other current MMO I know of. Ghoste intentionally used stealth in a manner not intended by repeatedly bumping into a creature to get his attention. Then he failed to move fast enough or far enough away for the creature to lose aggro. If you like, I can demonstrate how to lose a creatures aggro.

Ghoste
10-02-2007, 04:16 PM
The devs are probably a lot like mostt of the folks. They look at this thread, the video and everything else in context and then they say "what's the problem?". Fact is, stealth works great in DDO, better than any other current MMO I know of. Ghoste intentionally used stealth in a manner not intended by repeatedly bumping into a creature to get his attention. Then he failed to move fast enough or far enough away for the creature to lose aggro. If you like, I can demonstrate how to lose a creatures aggro.

Look here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1340066#post1340066) to see what Devs think on the matter. As you've said, I bumped into them to get their attention. They didn't hear or see me before or after the bump. So can you explain, given a lack of any sensory input for them, why you think they should know exactly where you are other than during that split second where you bump into them?

parvo
10-02-2007, 04:48 PM
Look here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1340066#post1340066) to see what Devs think on the matter. As you've said, I bumped into them to get their attention. They didn't hear or see me before or after the bump. So can you explain, given a lack of any sensory input for them, why you think they should know exactly where you are other than during that split second where you bump into them?

I just watched your second video. I can't help thinking what an awesome job they did on creature AI. The creatures became alert which increases their spot/listen. That is a reaction you see over and over in DDO AI. At rest a creature has spot/listen of x. If you alert them they have a spot/listen of x+y. They acted very realistically, attacking a spot where they thought you might be. They also knew you had gone down the ladder so they "camped" the ladder for a bit. The video also demonstrates that one of the Hobgoblins lost interest in you completely, going back to his resting spot/listen. Had you moved farther away, the other Hobgoblin would have too.

There is absolutely nothing to complain about here. You should be praising the devs for great work on stealth.

Riddikulus
10-02-2007, 05:08 PM
At rest a creature has spot/listen of x. If you alert them they have a spot/listen of x+y. They acted very realistically, attacking a spot where they thought you might be. They also knew you had gone down the ladder so they "camped" the ladder for a bit.
Actually if you really watch the mobs, they spend almost exactly the same amount of time at any particular spot as you do... it's almost as if they are watching a 3 second time delay tape of your actions. ;)


The video also demonstrates that one of the Hobgoblins lost interest in you completely, going back to his resting spot/listen. Had you moved farther away, the other Hobgoblin would have too.

There is absolutely nothing to complain about here. You should be praising the devs for great work on stealth.
I think some of it is influenced by type of mob... some mobs will never give up, white stop sign excluded.

Ghoste
10-02-2007, 08:48 PM
I just watched your second video. I can't help thinking what an awesome job they did on creature AI. The creatures became alert which increases their spot/listen. That is a reaction you see over and over in DDO AI. At rest a creature has spot/listen of x. If you alert them they have a spot/listen of x+y. They acted very realistically, attacking a spot where they thought you might be. They also knew you had gone down the ladder so they "camped" the ladder for a bit. The video also demonstrates that one of the Hobgoblins lost interest in you completely, going back to his resting spot/listen. Had you moved farther away, the other Hobgoblin would have too.

There is absolutely nothing to complain about here. You should be praising the devs for great work on stealth.
So you're saying CR 2 hobgoblins have a listen higher than 31 and spot greater than 46 when in this "alert mode" you just made up? Seriously, tell me if that's what you're implying, cuz it sure looks that way. Actually even higher, since others have reported the same results.

Otherwise, you have again failed to explain how they can locate someone lacking any kind of sensory perception of that person. I completely agree they should know where you are during the split second you bump into them, that would be the sense of touch. But when touch is no longer going on, and with their really low spot - no hope of seeing or hearing, even in this hypothetical "alert mode", the only explanation is the AI is functioning like radar.

If you want to see the difference between the scenario I have filemd, anyone can test that. Go sneak around in fullplate and see if that same time delay is there. Nope, they'll run right at you as if you weren't even sneaking. A completely different reaction when they can actually see or hear you.

Sleepy
10-02-2007, 09:22 PM
I see this problem all the time (or something like it). I've just learned to deal with it.

Another not-entirely unrelated problem. If I sneak through a room and am on the other side when a party member enters and yells at them, they turn around and hit me. When I walk inside just after the member (while in sneak) they have no idea where I am and completely ignore me.

parvo
10-02-2007, 11:15 PM
So you're saying CR 2 hobgoblins have a listen higher than 31 and spot greater than 46 when in this "alert mode" you just made up? Seriously, tell me if that's what you're implying, cuz it sure looks that way. Actually even higher, since others have reported the same results.

Otherwise, you have again failed to explain how they can locate someone lacking any kind of sensory perception of that person. I completely agree they should know where you are during the split second you bump into them, that would be the sense of touch. But when touch is no longer going on, and with their really low spot - no hope of seeing or hearing, even in this hypothetical "alert mode", the only explanation is the AI is functioning like radar.

If you want to see the difference between the scenario I have filemd, anyone can test that. Go sneak around in fullplate and see if that same time delay is there. Nope, they'll run right at you as if you weren't even sneaking. A completely different reaction when they can actually see or hear you.

If you alert them enough to attack, you you are no longer stealthed. You can not re-stealth until you lose aggro. What's so hard to understand about that? Realistically, after you bump into them they should chop your arms off and follow the trail of blood (or in this case, liquid detergent) to track you. Stealth is neither unfair, nor broken. There are some things in DDO that are broken but stealth isn't one of them.

Ghoste
10-03-2007, 01:22 AM
If you alert them enough to attack, you you are no longer stealthed. You can not re-stealth until you lose aggro. What's so hard to understand about that? Realistically, after you bump into them they should chop your arms off and follow the trail of blood (or in this case, liquid detergent) to track you. Stealth is neither unfair, nor broken. There are some things in DDO that are broken but stealth isn't one of them.
Wrong. In fact I'm going to use a Dev's words instead of mine own to explain why. I have repeatedly directed you to these very words and they have repeatedly been ignored.

Currently invisibility gives monsters a penalty to their spot checks of -20, and considers you "always hiding as if you had a skill of 20, even if you're not actually hiding". No changes have been made to it from the monster side.Formatting added for emphasis.

So, I will return the question to you: what is so hard to understand about that?

You say "no-longer stealthed". I say you don't know what you're talking about.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***edit***Also, it is very easy to see the difference between a monster that can and cannot see you. The one who can see you, ie not stealthed as you keep insisting, runs straight at you with no delay. There is no slowly moving to the last spot you were standing when he made his last attack, even though you are no longer standing there.

So while you make another attempt to explain how a monster who has no sensory input to indicate your location should still know where you are, perhaps you can explain that specific difference in behavior?

parvo
10-03-2007, 11:19 AM
Ghoste, if you think stealth involves repeatedly running into a creature, you're wrong. You are breaking your stealth when you do that by being observed. Remember, invisibility in DDO is not invisibility, it's hide. Bumping into the creature takes you out of hiding, otherwise the creatures would not attack you. After the creature attacks, you cannot stealth until aggro is gone. You demonstrated in your second video how a stealther can break aggro.

I'm not sure where our resident rules laywer is but he'd tell you in D&D once you are observed, you can not hide. The Bluff skill however should give you a chance to hide. You need to get on board the Bluff-is-broken train. It's headed to a better place :)

captain1z
10-03-2007, 11:33 AM
awesome job Ghoste. Lotsa vids puts it in your face....you cant miss that.

Talon_Moonshadow
10-03-2007, 12:04 PM
My current complaint about stealth is why can't I run around a corner and jump into the bushes and hide again? Also, related, why do they instantly know my exact location as soon as they get attacked?

I know some of you will say it is because players could find ways to exploit this. But that is not a good enough reason to me.


May of you might think it is an exploit to cast a cloudkill, teleport out of the dungeon, then come back in and try to sneak by the guys you just attacked.....but I don't think it should be.
Number one, if the mobs find themselves inside a cloudkill, they should step out of it......alert.....and search for intruders.
Having bonuses to find some one is ok, but not unexplained clairvoyant knowledge.

Smart monsters shuuld have a smarter AI, but even a slime should get out of something that is causing it damage.
Self-preservation first, revenge second, overcoming fear of self preservation to accomplish a goal third.

See human invaders. Charge. get damaged by wall of fire. Back up. Range. Buff. send in suicidal buffed barbarians....or better yet cast wall of fire and cloudkill on invaders to make them enter room. Then charge again.

Varient: slimes/vermin: detect food. Charge (guy in front, not wiz/cleric in back). Atttack from front. get damaged by wall of fire. run back. Wait. Attack when safe. or try again in a few rounds, etc.
Note: trolls in next room are food....not allies. Adventures releasing spiders on neighboring trolls is valid tactic, not an exploit. Smart trolls will seek revenge on spider releasing adventurers.....smart spiders do not exist.

Hafeal
10-03-2007, 12:09 PM
Number one, if the mobs find themselves inside a cloudkill, they should step out of it......alert.....and search for intruders. Having bonuses to find some one is ok, but not unexplained clairvoyant knowledge.

Well, they should not "step out" until they are taking damage and unintelligent creatures (e.g., some undead) should not necessarily move out of the cloud.

And I don't agree to a bonus - intelligent creatures are going to come out of the cloud (if it is damages them) coughing, wheezing, hurt - they should have a penalty. I mean they came out of cloud which should have obscured their vision, no?

Missing_Minds
10-03-2007, 12:17 PM
My current complaint about stealth is why can't I run around a corner and jump into the bushes and hide again? Also, related, why do they instantly know my exact location as soon as they get attacked?

This has always bugged me, and I call it cheating by the mobs.



Smart monsters shuuld have a smarter AI, but even a slime should get out of something that is causing it damage.
Self-preservation first, revenge second, overcoming fear of self preservation to accomplish a goal third.

That is fine.. but they understand flanking??? I don't think so. Yes, "here is food, I eat" is fine, but not "Here is food, I got around to be able to attack better to eat faster."


smart spiders do not exist.

They do exist.The fiendish template would give the spiders an int of 3, hence why whisperdooms daughters (in the whisperdoom quest) can be PKed, feared, etc.

Talon_Moonshadow
10-03-2007, 12:58 PM
Well, they should not "step out" until they are taking damage and unintelligent creatures (e.g., some undead) should not necessarily move out of the cloud.

And I don't agree to a bonus - intelligent creatures are going to come out of the cloud (if it is damages them) coughing, wheezing, hurt - they should have a penalty. I mean they came out of cloud which should have obscured their vision, no?

I realised after I posted that most of my post had little to do with stealth. it started as how re-stealthing might be exploited. Sry all.

I meant that once alerted they should have a bonus to finding you. Knowing you are out there should help them find you, but they should have to find you by their available means....not this sudden god-given knowledge that they have now.
And yes, Undead should just be alerted (if Intelligent) but not move away.

I just want the AI to be more realistic, for stealth and for othet things.
There should be non combat options for completing quests.

As is, the Stealth option for Stealthy repossession is to let a rogue take his time, and hopefully make zero mistakes, while the rest of the party waits at the entrance to get free xp.....boring (unless you are the rogue) And frustrating when a single mistake spells doom with no other otion but to kill everything that saw you. Running out of sight and hiding again should be an option.

Ghoste
10-03-2007, 02:35 PM
Ghoste, if you think stealth involves repeatedly running into a creature, you're wrong. You are breaking your stealth when you do that by being observed. Remember, invisibility in DDO is not invisibility, it's hide. Bumping into the creature takes you out of hiding, otherwise the creatures would not attack you. After the creature attacks, you cannot stealth until aggro is gone. You demonstrated in your second video how a stealther can break aggro.

I'm not sure where our resident rules laywer is but he'd tell you in D&D once you are observed, you can not hide. The Bluff skill however should give you a chance to hide. You need to get on board the Bluff-is-broken train. It's headed to a better place :)
Invisibility = always hiding. Always. That's what a "rule lawyer" would tell you.

Again, you keep going off without fully knowing what you're talking about. But then I guess there's no point trying to convince every last person. The Devs thought it worked a certain way, I have shown it doesn't. So what if you don't think it should, nothing to gain if I can convince you. It's already been decided by the devs that it should work that way. So there's no use trying to convince them of that, they agree. All that's left is convincing one person who's train of though works like a broken record. Like you have so clearly pointed out, not worth the effort.

***EDIT***And you still haven't even attempted to explain whythey behave so differently when you bump into them with invisibility vs when you bump into them without it. According to what you have said so far, there should be no difference, but there clearly is a big difference in there behavior.

Mystyk
10-03-2007, 06:58 PM
Children get bonuses to thier sneak and hide similar to halflings. My son (who just turned six) has two ranks in both, a 12 dex and the +2/+4 Kender racial bonus. That gives him a 4/6 if he doesn't use an action boost (which he picked up when he dinged age 3). I have one rank each of spot/listen (USMC training). I also have a 14 Wisdom due to aging and Ranger skill boost I picked up from hunting deer. That gives me a 3/3 unboosted. Obviously, if I am not alerted to his presence he can remain hidden. but, if I know he's hiding, I can boost and find him.

The realistic example shown above proves that sneak is not broken. Some players justt don't understand the mechanics...
Hmm...humans have average scores of 10-11...so assuming that you and your child have above average scores is a bit of conceit (not that I'm suprised).

Anyway, human kids don't get kender racial bonuses. Action boost doesn't exist in pnp, and you have to be talented in DDO to get one (meaning an above average being, aka an adventurer). So, assuming a human with 12 wisdom (average wisdom +2 for age bonuses), your rank of training (giving you the benefit of a doubt here, since I don't know what USMC is), what would be a conditional bonus for deer and not children, you'd be at a...2/2 for spot/listen? Yeah, that sounds right for an average human...
Now, for the child, it's about a 10-11 for dex in a human as well. So, unless your kid is exceptionally coordinated and dextrous, which I doubt, he'll be put in the average category as well. However, he is small, so he gets a size bonus to hide and move silently of +4, meaning he's currently at a 4/4.
So, more than half of the time, you won't spot your kid. However, there are still conditional modifiers to that (being more alert for whatever reason, giggly child, child being more alert, either of you being more tired than on average, etc) which could change whether or not your kid goes undetected.


The reason I haven't noticed the so-called issue is, my Rogues aren't invisible, out-of-balance washing machines on spin cycle. If my intent is to be stealthy, I don't bump into enemies. If the washing machine wanted to, he could go into rinse mode, and slip right past the Hobos.
Okay, so aside from you bashing Ghoste's character, all I'm getting out of this is that Ghoste is a better bug detector than you. That shouldn't be something he should be punished for, since thousands of people make a lot of money hunting down game bugs...

Ghoste
10-03-2007, 08:49 PM
My current complaint about stealth is why can't I run around a corner and jump into the bushes and hide again? Also, related, why do they instantly know my exact location as soon as they get attacked?

I know some of you will say it is because players could find ways to exploit this. But that is not a good enough reason to me.
I remember when it used to work differently. I don't know if thatwas fixed atthe same time as agro for cloudkill was fixed, but I can remember going through Redwillow and a couple other outdoor quests with everyone in the party either a ranged ranger or repeater build. Easiest runs I've ever done.

transtemporal
10-04-2007, 12:11 AM
I'm not sure where our resident rules laywer is but he'd tell you in D&D once you are observed, you can not hide.

Thats right parvo except that its "while you're being observed". "Observed" here means his spot check beats your hide check. If you break line of sight from the creature; i.e. get 100% concealment from cover, you can hide again. You can also hide again after making a successful "bluff to distract" check, as you mention. This is 3.5e PnP rules (links at the bottom).

However...

"A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.)"

I imagine the reverse is also true. If you bump into a creature, he pinpoints your location and can makes swings at you with a 50% miss chance. Note also that running imposes a -20 penalty to move silently and that any listen check that beats your move silently by 20 can pinpoint your location.

Now whether this applies to DDO I don't know. And I do suspect the implementation isn't great (for a start invis is supposed to give 50% miss chance, but I haven't looked in my combat log - can anyone comment?). It seems like you only have 2 states sneaking-wise, hidden and observed. You should really have 4: hidden, noticed, pinpointed and observed.

For the full PnP rules on noticing invisibility, hiding and spotting, go here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility
and here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm
and here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm

Ghoste
10-04-2007, 01:22 AM
So let me get this straight trans, not only would the creature in question (for example those CR 2 hobgoblins) have to have a spot of 46 to have pinpointed me after I had moved away, but had I just run for it, he would have still had to have had a listen skill of 31 even though I was running full speed?

Man Parvo, not only are the Devs disagreeing with you, but also the "rules lawyers" you were so counting on.

Guess you have your own new crussade to fight for with the Devs: "improve mosnters' ability to locate hidden players". I'll keep an eye out for your thread.

GlassCannon
10-04-2007, 02:44 AM
--invis is supposed to give 50% miss chance--

For the full PnP rules on noticing invisibility, hiding and spotting, go here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility
and here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm
and here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm

Invis provides zero miss chance.

Sneaking also provides zero miss chance. They swing at you while you are sneaking and you are where they think you are, they hit full force and do full damage. Only your AC can stop the damage coming, as dice are thrown normally.

At least, that's the way it was last I checked(MOD 4).

parvo
10-04-2007, 06:45 PM
So let me get this straight trans, not only would the creature in question (for example those CR 2 hobgoblins) have to have a spot of 46 to have pinpointed me after I had moved away, but had I just run for it, he would have still had to have had a listen skill of 31 even though I was running full speed?

Man Parvo, not only are the Devs disagreeing with you, but also the "rules lawyers" you were so counting on.

Guess you have your own new crussade to fight for with the Devs: "improve mosnters' ability to locate hidden players". I'll keep an eye out for your thread.

This makes perfect sense to me. I can't find the thread but Mad copied it from an Eladrin post:

<<If you are standing in front of a monster within the creature's visual arc (which can vary from monster to monster - don't try hiding from a beholder, for instance, and is wider if the monster is in the middle of its "search" emotes) every few seconds it gains a small bonus to its spot check. All of those bonuses are instantly lost if you're no longer within line of sight to the target, so someone with a high hide skill will have a longer "grace period" before a monster will see you. Invisibility reduces their spot by 20 (unless they can see invisible things), and some monsters don't even make spot checks, like those with Tremorsense or Blindsight. The "stealth eyes" modify the creature's base spot check by applying a circumstance bonus (or penalty) and determine the rate at which their spot skills increase over time. It's sort of like they're taking 20 while you're sitting in front of them, but if you are sitting there for a seriously extended period of time, it'll eventually go over 20.

If you make physical contact with a creature or get right up in its face, it'll notice you're there regardless.>>

Eladrin understands exactly how stealth works. It's far from D&D but anyone who uses it (correctly) knows it works great.

Ghoste
10-04-2007, 08:46 PM
This makes perfect sense to me. I can't find the thread but Mad copied it from an Eladrin post...

A CR 2 hobgoblin able to get enough hypothetical bonuses to get their listen up to 31 (higher as other people have confirmed same behavior with higher stealth skills) and their spot to 46?

That makes perfect sense to you?

Seriously?

Ok, I'll let it go at that. If that's the kind of **** I have to come up with to make "perfect sense" then I'd rather not.







By the way, do you happen to have a link to the thread containing the quote you just "pasted". Eladrin discussed stealth pretty extensively in the thread I posted a link to and never said anything like that. Even if he did, there's still a big gap in the numbers needed to back that up as the reason for this observed behavior.

transtemporal
10-04-2007, 10:54 PM
So let me get this straight trans, not only would the creature in question (for example those CR 2 hobgoblins) have to have a spot of 46 to have pinpointed me after I had moved away, but had I just run for it, he would have still had to have had a listen skill of 31 even though I was running full speed?

Kind of. Let me preface this by saying that this is just the way that PnP works and while its supposedly the basis for DDO, its not analogus.

With regards to him spotting you, your bumping into him allows him to pinpoint you automatically, so his spot check at that moment is irrelevant (he can make attacks at your area with a 50% miss chance). However, as long as you don't attack, bump into him or get hit by him, all you need to do theoretically, to get "hidden" status again is for you to sneak to a clear space. Also, if you get behind 100% cover (break line of sight), you have another chance to get hidden status again. In which case, he has to use spot to pinpoint you and yes, the spot check is 46+.

On the listen check, I don't think its possible to sneak and run at the same time in DDO so the -20 is a moot point. If you're sneaking, they need listen check 31+. If you're NOT sneaking, I'm not sure what the DC would be for them to pinpoint you. Probably pretty lousy. Which would explain why my running sorc can never lose chasing mobs. :rolleyes:

transtemporal
10-04-2007, 11:09 PM
Invis provides zero miss chance.

Sneaking also provides zero miss chance. They swing at you while you are sneaking and you are where they think you are, they hit full force and do full damage. Only your AC can stop the damage coming, as dice are thrown normally.

I think you're right GlassCannon. I tested this out on the sorrowdusk ogres last night. Worth noting that my mega-unstealthy sorc with 3 hide (23 with invis) and 3 move silently was able to get quite close to the ogres without them noticing. I was quite surprised, will definitely have to use that tactic more. Once they were aware of me it was all downhill. I have a few hunches though. I'll test them out this weekend and let you know how I go.

On the CR2 hobgoblins with the superhuman senses, theres a couple of explanations I can think of. 1) If it was on elite, its very possible their spot & listen were stoopidly high; 2) See Invisibility (not very likely); 3) Maybe bumping into them turns off sneak entirely, no matter how high you've got it?

parvo
10-05-2007, 12:54 AM
A CR 2 hobgoblin able to get enough hypothetical bonuses to get their listen up to 31 (higher as other people have confirmed same behavior with higher stealth skills) and their spot to 46?

That makes perfect sense to you?

Seriously?

Ok, I'll let it go at that. If that's the kind of **** I have to come up with to make "perfect sense" then I'd rather not.







By the way, do you happen to have a link to the thread containing the quote you just "pasted". Eladrin discussed stealth pretty extensively in the thread I posted a link to and never said anything like that. Even if he did, there's still a big gap in the numbers needed to back that up as the reason for this observed behavior.

I really appologize if I've offended you. It does make perfect sense to me. I lost the link, but Mad might know where it is.

By bumping into the mob you allow it to pinpoint your position. It is now observing you. Stealth at that point is useless and has zero to do with the mobs targeting you. You can squat down and move slow, but the creature is observing you. You are not hiding. At that point your hide skill is 0.

Eladrin
<<If you make physical contact with a creature or get right up in its face, it'll notice you're there regardless.>>

You cannot re-hide from creatures that are observing you. Invisibility is a +20 to hide skill anyway but does not allow you to hide from creatures that are already observing you. You do not get to add your hide skill at that point. Eladrin's comment about invisibility allways giving +20 hide was in regards to whether or not you were sneaking, running etc. He did not mean you could go into hiding while being observed.

Eladrin
<<Currently invisibility gives monsters a penalty to their spot checks of -20, and considers you "always hiding as if you had a skill of 20, even if you're not actually hiding". No changes have been made to it from the monster side.>>

You still have a hide of 20 even though you are no longer hiding. However, at that point you've likely been within the visual arc of the creature long enough for it to spot you anyway.

Eladrin
<<If you are standing in front of a monster within the creature's visual arc (which can vary from monster to monster - don't try hiding from a beholder, for instance, and is wider if the monster is in the middle of its "search" emotes) every few seconds it gains a small bonus to its spot check. All of those bonuses are instantly lost if you're no longer within line of sight to the target, so someone with a high hide skill will have a longer "grace period" before a monster will see you. Invisibility reduces their spot by 20 (unless they can see invisible things), and some monsters don't even make spot checks, like those with Tremorsense or Blindsight. The "stealth eyes" modify the creature's base spot check by applying a circumstance bonus (or penalty) and determine the rate at which their spot skills increase over time. It's sort of like they're taking 20 while you're sitting in front of them, but if you are sitting there for a seriously extended period of time, it'll eventually go over 20.>>

In your Hobgoblin video, you often had three to five eyes showing. That increases the rate of the mobs spot skill increase. The hobgoblins at the ladder in your second video are acting the same way all creature act if they can't path to the aggro'd target due to a permenant obstruction. They stay put until they lose aggro. Invisibility had nothing to do with it.

Try moving out of the visual arc and outside thier normal hearing range (the range they can hear you when you are not hiding), it can throw them off. However they may remain alert and easily re-aggro.

Eladrin
<<Once alerted, monsters generally remain alert, they're not typically the xp fodder that exist in most other games. De-aggro is something that I'd like some work on at some point, however. They're too good at re-aggroing someone that they've been alerted to.>>

I stealth regularly in permadeath play and Eladrin did a good job of explaining how it works. It's also a game mechanic that is better than any MMO I've played. I give the devs a hard time for things that are broken, but stealth isn't one of them.

Ghoste
10-05-2007, 01:32 AM
I've provided you a link with Eladrin saying invis considers you always hiding. Those were his words. In addition, it gives monsters a -20 to their spot. That post was in response to my asking if invis could let you re-hide from monsters using invis.

Q: Can you re-hide using invis.
A: Invis considers you always hiding and gives them a -20 to spot.

You messed up that quote which you had a link to right under your nose, and are now telling me you got these other supposed quotes right, even though you dont know where you got them from?

I see you also gave up on the notion of CR 2 hobgoblins having a spot skill of 46. Good for you, you're making progress.

Whatever, you've misquoted Eladrin, missed what I've repeatedly said. You seem to be having a conversation with someone else.

I'll just leave you to it. Best of luck in showing your imaginary friend who's right. You're gonna need it.

parvo
10-05-2007, 08:19 AM
I've provided you a link with Eladrin saying invis considers you always hiding. Those were his words. In addition, it gives monsters a -20 to their spot. That post was in response to my asking if invis could let you re-hide from monsters using invis.

Q: Can you re-hide using invis.
A: Invis considers you always hiding and gives them a -20 to spot.

You messed up that quote which you had a link to right under your nose, and are now telling me you got these other supposed quotes right, even though you dont know where you got them from?

I see you also gave up on the notion of CR 2 hobgoblins having a spot skill of 46. Good for you, you're making progress.

Whatever, you've misquoted Eladrin, missed what I've repeatedly said. You seem to be having a conversation with someone else.

I'll just leave you to it. Best of luck in showing your imaginary friend who's right. You're gonna need it.

Here is a direct copy/paste of your question and Eladrin's answer:

Ghoste
<<6. With stealth and detection skills being brought more in line with D&D rules, can we expect to see similar adjustments to stealth spells, like invisibility?
Currently invisibility gives you pretty much a perfect hide score, not just a bonus. If you aren't heard and dont bump into anything, no chance for someone without see invisibility but with a very high spot skill to find you.>>

Eladrin
<<Currently invisibility gives monsters a penalty to their spot checks of -20, and considers you "always hiding as if you had a skill of 20, even if you're not actually hiding". No changes have been made to it from the monster side.>>

I got the quote right. It's obvious from Eladrin's answer that invisibility does not mean you allways add your hide skill to the +20 it gives you. And yes, a Hobgoblin's spot will continue to increase if you are within it's visual arc. It can go past 46 actually. I correctly quoted Eladrin's comment on that as well.

Again I'm sorry if I offended you, but stealth works great in DDO.

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 08:23 AM
I think it works pretty well also. And regarding Eladrin's statement that running into monsters clues them as to where you are....that's not always correct. I have run smack into the crotch of many monsters and they never spotted me. The key was moving fast enough.

Riddikulus
10-05-2007, 10:20 AM
but stealth works great in DDO.
I don't know how you can say this with a straight face.

An aggroed mob will continue to mimic your movement path after you break LOS while stealthed and/or invisible. That is completely broken.

parvo
10-05-2007, 10:48 AM
I don't know how you can say this with a straight face.

An aggroed mob will continue to mimic your movement path after you break LOS while stealthed and/or invisible. That is completely broken.

The only way a mob aggro'ed on you, is to spot you. Once they spot you they are observing you. Once they observe you, you cannot hide. You are no longer stealthed. It's that simple. There is nothing broken about it.

Mobs do not allways follow your movement path. If you can get far enough away, they will lose aggro.

Riddikulus
10-05-2007, 11:26 AM
The only way a mob aggro'ed on you, is to spot you. Once they spot you they are observing you. Once they observe you, you cannot hide. You are no longer stealthed. It's that simple. There is nothing broken about it.

Mobs do not allways follow your movement path. If you can get far enough away, they will lose aggro.
Lets try this again.

Once you break LOS, the mob should NOT be following your movement path.

parvo
10-05-2007, 02:08 PM
Lets try this again.

Once you break LOS, the mob should NOT be following your movement path.

Why not?

Riddikulus
10-05-2007, 02:18 PM
Why not?
Because they no longer know where you are, period.

If, after aggroing a mob while invisible, I run down a hall, turn a corner out of LOS of the mob, zig zag left and right down a hallway, then double back and hide behind a barrel I can watch the mob do exactly the same thing... he will come around the corner, zig zag every motion I made down the hallway, double back, and come to me behind the barrel.

That is completely broken.

At best the mob should turn the corner, perhaps hunt around, and either continue <straight> down the hallway, or give up and head back.

Borrigain
10-05-2007, 02:24 PM
Only way they could do that is if they have "scent" ability. Now if the mobs DO, awesome AI, if not, that's a no-go and needs to be addressed.

Borr.

Ghoste
10-05-2007, 02:53 PM
And yes, a Hobgoblin's spot will continue to increase if you are within it's visual arc. It can go past 46 actually. I correctly quoted Eladrin's comment on that as well.

Again, how are you managing to get those quotes right word for word without even knowing where you got them from. I did a search and found no such statement by Eladrin. Guess you're just hoping I'll take your word, huh? Just like I'm supposed to take your word that CR 2 hobgoblins (on normal difficulty) have a spot greater than 46. Lol, no problem. I believe you...really, i do...

Everybody, you heard it here first, according to Parvo, CR 2 hobgoblins have a spot greater than 46. And I thought you were doing so well...

And you have copy and pasted the quote that says invisibility means you are always hiding. Just out of curiosity, could you humor me with what you think "always hiding" means?

parvo
10-05-2007, 03:18 PM
Because they no longer know where you are, period.

If, after aggroing a mob while invisible, I run down a hall, turn a corner out of LOS of the mob, zig zag left and right down a hallway, then double back and hide behind a barrel I can watch the mob do exactly the same thing... he will come around the corner, zig zag every motion I made down the hallway, double back, and come to me behind the barrel.

That is completely broken.

At best the mob should turn the corner, perhaps hunt around, and either continue <straight> down the hallway, or give up and head back.

Obviously they do have an idea where you are. The hobgoblins in Ghoste's second video did not mimic his every move. Only when they were very close to him and he was within their visual arc.

parvo
10-05-2007, 03:26 PM
Only way they could do that is if they have "scent" ability. Now if the mobs DO, awesome AI, if not, that's a no-go and needs to be addressed.

Borr.

Why does it need to be addressed? The system is balanced and works great. It's not based on D&D rules and I agree with Eladrin that if it was, it wouldn't be much fun to stealth.

Ghoste
10-05-2007, 04:01 PM
Obviously they do have an idea where you are. The hobgoblins in Ghoste's second video did not mimic his every move. Only when they were very close to him and he was within their visual arc.

Not true, watch both vids again. There are several times when I wasn't in their visual arc when they moved right towards me. Mimicking my every move? No, if you mean instantaneously, yes if you account for a delay tied to a specific moment in their animation.

Find that spot in their attack animation, right at the end of the attack, look where I am standing at that instant. I move, and they go to stand in a position to swing at where I was standing and make another attack. Again, look where I'm standing right at the end of that attack animation. I move away, and they go right to that spot. The video shows it over and over. Everyone else has seen that but you. What are you missing?

Also, care to explain what you think the word "always" means?

Ghoste
10-05-2007, 04:03 PM
Why does it need to be addressed? The system is balanced and works great. It's not based on D&D rules and I agree with Eladrin that if it was, it wouldn't be much fun to stealth.
What about what Eladrin has said do you agree with?

The part about invis meaning you're always hiding? The -20 to monster spot? It can't be the part where he said hobgoblins CR 2 have infinite spot checks, cuz he never said that.

Snike
10-05-2007, 04:07 PM
Faster sneaking should be inculded with rogue level progression without requiring APs IMO. Too many things we already need, and I find my rogue using invis clickie more than sneak because of the speed issues.

parvo
10-05-2007, 05:19 PM
What about what Eladrin has said do you agree with?

The part about invis meaning you're always hiding? The -20 to monster spot? It can't be the part where he said hobgoblins CR 2 have infinite spot checks, cuz he never said that.

I agree with this:
Eladrin<<If you sneak around and make sure you keep objects between yourself and the monsters, stay out of their frontal viewing arc, and make sure you don't physically bump into them, it's an awesome quest. All the invisibility and hiding skill in the world won't help you if a kobold steps on you though.

The hide skill will let you walk right past a kobold without it immediately noticing you, but if you linger for a long period of time sitting four feet in front of it, yeah, eventually it will notice you.

Go from hiding spot to hiding spot - terrain actually blocks line of sight in DDO. Act like a thief, don't stand in the middle of the room and wonder why something saw you.>>

I agree with this:
Eladrin<<Your ability to make mistakes and linger in the field of view of your opponents is significantly higher than if your skills were lower. But if they run into you, they'll still know there's something there.>>

I agree with this:
Eladrin<<Those are my thoughts as well. Stealth is a powerful tool when you've practiced enough to understand its limitations, but sadly most people won't sit around waiting for you to use that tool.>>

And this:
Eladrin<<If you are standing in front of a monster within the creature's visual arc (which can vary from monster to monster - don't try hiding from a beholder, for instance, and is wider if the monster is in the middle of its "search" emotes) every few seconds it gains a small bonus to its spot check. All of those bonuses are instantly lost if you're no longer within line of sight to the target, so someone with a high hide skill will have a longer "grace period" before a monster will see you. Invisibility reduces their spot by 20 (unless they can see invisible things), and some monsters don't even make spot checks, like those with Tremorsense or Blindsight. The "stealth eyes" modify the creature's base spot check by applying a circumstance bonus (or penalty) and determine the rate at which their spot skills increase over time. It's sort of like they're taking 20 while you're sitting in front of them, but if you are sitting there for a seriously extended period of time, it'll eventually go over 20.

If you make physical contact with a creature or get right up in its face, it'll notice you're there regardless.>>

All those quotes are directly from a thread you were following and posting in heavily.

Eladrin made it obvious that if you bump into a creature you're hosed. So what do you do? You video yourself repeatedly bumping into a creature and then post how Stealth is broken...

Ghoste
10-05-2007, 08:43 PM
I agree with all those too.

None of those contradict anything I've said. If you think they do, start all over from the begining. Take a second look at those vids, take a look through my posts.

Especially the last one, you are implying the very short time I spent in front of the hobgoblins was enough to boost their spot way over 20. Not at all "a seriously extended period of time".

I also agree with invisibility considering you as "always hiding". How about you? What do you make of "always"?

And no, not all of them were from that thread I was quoting and posting in, read your own post again while you're at it.

Aspenor
10-05-2007, 09:05 PM
I'd like to point out that I deaggro'd a mob of about 8 monsters via restealthing. All this after destealthing and jumping around them for a while. It took me about 10 minutes to shake them. There were about 10 monsters in the mob, 2 never deaggrod they switched to ranged. This is 41 hide and 45 move silently, which could have been higher but I didn't feel like using my gird.

Mystyk
10-07-2007, 09:46 AM
So, Asp, did you run away from them for a long time, or did you go behind a wall that the mobs can't see through and then restealth? The issue is being able to become stealthed again after being noticed. As things currently are in game, you have to run far enough to break their pursuit before you can go back into stealth. However, in PnP, you can merely loose line of sight with a creature and, barring special sensory abilities, can go back into hiding.

Ghoste, I understand a lot of how you feel when speaking to Parvo. You say, "Things work like this, here are a couple of examples." and Parvo retorts with, "Well, this guy says it works like this." It's pretty amusing, though...

However, from what I gathered from one of Parvo's quotes (which I'm not all entitled to believe, but I'm too lazy to go check it out myself), a creature (CR2 or not) keeps getting stacking bonuses to spot until his spot is high enough to find you. I find that to be a bit unfair and broken, although that is another issue than you're stating.

What Parvo hasn't seem to look at is the comparison between non-stealth aggro, and this stealth-ping that you speak of, Ghoste. From what I gather, if they did pinpoint you, they wouldn't have the delayed mimic of your movements, they'd just run at you. However, that's not the case, as you've explained and showed. Is that about accurate?

Raithe
10-07-2007, 12:27 PM
K, I do believe that some people are thoroughly confused now. Let me reiterate a very important point.

Once you are on a mob's aggro list, they DO NOT NEED to make any spot/listen checks against you. You are on their aggro list, and they are continuously looking for any telltale signs at all (footprints, dust, etc.) of your presence. You have been observed and can no longer sneak or invis past these particular mobs. (Though running with haste and sprint boost is definitely an option...)

Bumping into a monster puts you on their aggro list regardless of any stealth considerations.

transtemporal
10-07-2007, 04:10 PM
I'm interested to find out how you restealthed too Asp, did you lose them by changing your elevation or just out-distancing them? And then presumeably restealthing?

Ghoste
10-07-2007, 05:05 PM
K, I do believe that some people are thoroughly confused now. Let me reiterate a very important point.

Once you are on a mob's aggro list, they DO NOT NEED to make any spot/listen checks against you. You are on their aggro list, and they are continuously looking for any telltale signs at all (footprints, dust, etc.) of your presence. You have been observed and can no longer sneak or invis past these particular mobs. (Though running with haste and sprint boost is definitely an option...)

Bumping into a monster puts you on their aggro list regardless of any stealth considerations.
If that is in fact how it is supposed to work, then why do the mobs behave so differently after you invis /sneak then how they do when they can just plain see you?

As far as looking for signs of you, they still need to overcome your hide skill to accomplish that. That's how it works in PnP, Devshave said invis will make you hiding again.

Anyways, either you can hide again, or you can't. Whichever it is, both don't work like they should. If you should be able to hide again,they canstill see you. If you shouldn't, then they cant see you as well as they should be able to.

Aspenor
10-07-2007, 06:05 PM
I'm interested to find out how you restealthed too Asp, did you lose them by changing your elevation or just out-distancing them? And then presumeably restealthing?

I ended up outdistancing, restealthing, and then dodging aggro and keeping my distance as much as possible while in sneak mode once they started to catch up to me. They eventually didn't any more.

Ghoste
10-08-2007, 05:23 AM
Ok, did some more testing. If I stand in front of a monster who can't spot me, even with invis, eventually (around a minute of waiting) they will spot me.

Anyways, started another thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1379914&posted=1#post1379914) with another vid, addressing a lot of the points brought up in this thread:
-spot bonuses over time
-re-stealthing
-invisibility
-monsters tracking you: tracking in real time, delayed tracking, and actively searching without any tracking.
-using re-stealthing to completely confuse the monsters so that you dont even need to stealth afterwards.

If this doesn't convince people that stealth is broken (especially the last point), then I don't know what else to say.

parvo
11-23-2007, 09:15 AM
Again, how are you managing to get those quotes right word for word without even knowing where you got them from. I did a search and found no such statement by Eladrin. Guess you're just hoping I'll take your word, huh? Just like I'm supposed to take your word that CR 2 hobgoblins (on normal difficulty) have a spot greater than 46. Lol, no problem. I believe you...really, i do...

Everybody, you heard it here first, according to Parvo, CR 2 hobgoblins have a spot greater than 46. And I thought you were doing so well...

And you have copy and pasted the quote that says invisibility means you are always hiding. Just out of curiosity, could you humor me with what you think "always hiding" means?

This still makes me smile :)

QuantumFX
11-27-2007, 08:42 PM
Well then. Ghoste, you should put your energy toward something useful that does need tweaking. Like Bluff.

But if he did then you'd be against it because a successful bluff should allow you to go into stealth mode while standing 10' in front of something. READ: Creating a Diversion to Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm)


You want to be able to run right into a creature, then run 20 feet away and have them forget you? Real rogues don't run into creatures while they are sneaking past them. Stealth works just fine. What you want is unreasonable.


You mean you cant knock the mob over, scream in his face, run ten feet away and re-stealth as if you were never there? Stealth is so broken...


It's not forever. If you get far enough away, the mob will forget you are even there. If you want to get far enough away, you need two things:
--Enough room in the instance
--Enough speed to outdistance the enemy

20 feet away, like the OP demonstrated is not far enough.

Demitris
11-28-2007, 04:15 AM
now I haven't read through all of the posts on all of the pages, but this is my take on it.

The OP's test was doomed to fail from the outset.

Simply put the key to why you were being spotted were in the Eyes. ANY rogue who has done their study and practise SHOULD know this. The mobs were in random movement mode when ever you were at one Eye stealth, this is classified as fully hidden. The mobs moved to around where they thought you might have been before based on their spot/listen and would swing wildly. BUT as your test in Von1 showed without any doubt, as soon as you moved into a light source that bumped you to 2 or more eyes, the agro mobs could perceive where you were and would be line for it.

As soon as you then moved back in to 1 eye placement, they would loose you again... Time and again in your example vid you were tagging 2 or more eyes in your moving around and because they were agro'd and alert to you would go straight to you.

As lessah's vid showed, staying at the one eye mark you can do anything you like that won't break stealth, hell I can remember shadow humping giants legs in the caves and the buggy's in Von1 with my rogue, because of not breaking the 1 eye mark.

Range, thats a sticky one, its tougher to test for, but there may be an issue or there may not be. But on the other aspects of your test vid... well your stealth was NOT high enough and your movement choices were dooming you to being spotted.

As to spot values of critters, I beleive El's description may have been the point of error in understanding. Monsters have a negative to spot when you have not already been seen (true), once agro'd they still have that same negative, but also have a bonus for alerted for a period of time, before they return to their non alerted state.

Flame me if you like but, a rogue with the know how and understanding can stealth avoid mobs under similar situations, but not by running under light sources.

Ghoste
11-28-2007, 04:42 AM
I've stealthed monsters with higher spot than bugbears with more than one eye showing. And your explanation does not explain the time delay, which I have shown more clearly in other videos. Plus the fact it is possible to get them to move with a time delay when you aren't even sneaking.This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UqSHCIJ1jo) shows me successfully sneaking past beholders in a level 14 quest (invaders elite) with 2 eyes showing and at extremely close range. Same character, same level. I can stealth past most of the monsters in this game no problem. That was not the point of this thread. The point was that when you bump into a monster, and then restealth (not possible to just hit sneak again - they'll still see you, have to invis) they begin to follow you on a delayed timetable. A consistant delay tied to their animation cycle. I've already provided proof in this very thread that it is not a matter of them now being able to see me. I posted a total of 4 videos on this topic, in one of them I show the difference: that being when I get their attention from a slightly greater distance, and then cast invisibility (distance doesn't matter when casting, so long as they didn't find me by bumpung into me) and they can no longer find me. But if the first time they find me is by bumping, they exhibit this "radar".

Let me find the right vid for you...here it is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1H1lXMGjeY).

And it probably wouldn't hurt to watch this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZv84M_mZHk)too. In fact this one clearly disproves the eye number theory, as I set up a similar scenario, but am standing out in the open, not sneaking at all. And then later on in the same video I am visible, not sneaking, and a kobold is still having a really hard time finding me.

And lastly, if you're ready for a really big shock about the bugginess of stealth, watch this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnXQ4ydzO_o).

What really gets me is, despite the fact that I have clearly shown there are some serious bugs with stealth...not a peep about it from any devs.


Flame me if you like but, a rogue with the know how and understanding can stealth avoid mobs under similar situations, but not by running under light sources.Flame you? No thanks. I've also stealthed through all these situations with a pure wizard. So what? A good rogue will almost always avoid mistakes that lead to being discovered...same with a good stealth wizard.

parvo
11-28-2007, 07:20 AM
I've stealthed monsters with higher spot than bugbears with more than one eye showing. And your explanation does not explain the time delay, which I have shown more clearly in other videos. Plus the fact it is possible to get them to move with a time delay when you aren't even sneaking.This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UqSHCIJ1jo) shows me successfully sneaking past beholders in a level 14 quest (invaders elite) with 2 eyes showing and at extremely close range. Same character, same level. I can stealth past most of the monsters in this game no problem. That was not the point of this thread. The point was that when you bump into a monster, and then restealth (not possible to just hit sneak again - they'll still see you, have to invis) they begin to follow you on a delayed timetable. A consistant delay tied to their animation cycle. I've already provided proof in this very thread that it is not a matter of them now being able to see me. I posted a total of 4 videos on this topic, in one of them I show the difference: that being when I get their attention from a slightly greater distance, and then cast invisibility (distance doesn't matter when casting, so long as they didn't find me by bumpung into me) and they can no longer find me. But if the first time they find me is by bumping, they exhibit this "radar".

Let me find the right vid for you...here it is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1H1lXMGjeY).

And it probably wouldn't hurt to watch this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZv84M_mZHk)too. In fact this one clearly disproves the eye number theory, as I set up a similar scenario, but am standing out in the open, not sneaking at all. And then later on in the same video I am visible, not sneaking, and a kobold is still having a really hard time finding me.

And lastly, if you're ready for a really big shock about the bugginess of stealth, watch this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnXQ4ydzO_o).

What really gets me is, despite the fact that I have clearly shown there are some serious bugs with stealth...not a peep about it from any devs.

Flame you? No thanks. I've also stealthed through all these situations with a pure wizard. So what? A good rogue will almost always avoid mistakes that lead to being discovered...same with a good stealth wizard.

None of those were bugs. That's how stealth works. Once you alert them, they have increased spot. There is no limit to a Bugbears spot. It increases (at a rate modified by the number of eyes) until they spot you. Once they spot you (either normally or you bumping into them) they are alerted, further increasing thier spot. Yea, CR 2 Hobbos can get a 48 spot if the player forces it that high.

Ghoste
11-28-2007, 03:09 PM
None of those were bugs. That's how stealth works. Once you alert them, they have increased spot. There is no limit to a Bugbears spot. It increases (at a rate modified by the number of eyes) until they spot you. Once they spot you (either normally or you bumping into them) they are alerted, further increasing thier spot. Yea, CR 2 Hobbos can get a 48 spot if the player forces it that high.
So why can't they track you in real time if they can spot you perfectly? And why do they track you if you bump into them when stealthed and then go invis, but don't track you if you bump into them while running and then go invis?

If you don't know what I'm refering to, watch the videos again. It's clear enough in them.

If Turbine wants it to work the way you describe, there are still plenty of bugs.

For the record, I have found no evidence that bumping into them permanantly increases theirs spot. Obviously it does for a moment, for them to find you. But after that, if their spot is enough to see you, why do they lag when following you? And what about the zombie in the Orchard. If my character's hide skill is 30ish, and I let the zombie bump into me plenty, then I cast invis. Why wasn't he spotting me at all when I stood there in front of him without sneaking (hide at 20)?

Again, it's all in the videos. If you have any questions about the videos, feel free to discuss them.

Dane_McArdy
11-28-2007, 03:31 PM
So the question really is, what does he mean by "If a monster has lost track of where you are"? If they have no chance of spotting/hearing you and cant touch you, haven't they lost track of you?

I belive if you break the line of site with them, and then go invisible or hide, they lose track of you. If you just go invis or hide where they can see you, they still keep track of you. So if a rogue uses diplomacy and the monster ignores them, and they hide or quaff a potion, the mob might just lose track of them.

Or if a caster runs around the corner and casts invisiblity, and then moves behind some crates.

Talon_Moonshadow
11-28-2007, 03:42 PM
I know Turbine has made changes to stealth over the numerous mods, and honestly I am not sure how it currently works.
I did read the devs comments on Ghoste's original post about this and I did successfully sneak through Stealthy Repo using some of that knowledge.
So I will say that stealth does work, and that what I have read that the devs have said on it also seems to work.

However, one thing I think that Ghoste was trying to point out is that once they know where you are....it is impossible to lose them again.
I admit I haven't tried it recently, but I know that they will chase you all the way across a dungeon after they see you.....no matter how many twist and turns you went through and how must faster you run than them.

It's not necessarily a stealth issue. I've had toons just plain out run things only to be attacked by them several minutes later as they finally caught up to me.......they could not possible have known where I was, or tracked me...etc. They just knew.

And my previous experiances with stealth showed the same thing. Once they see you, it's too late.....forever. They know where you are and will always know, and will find you and attack you if agroed on you, if they can find a path too you.
The UI sometimes get confused and sometimes they seem to be trying to go through a wall even thow you and now behind them....but's that's another issue.

Once they see you, you cannot restealth....period......ever......no matter what.
And that is not right.

(I admit I am going off of old knowledge.....might be some changes i do not know about.....gave up on stealth a long time ago)

Talon_Moonshadow
11-28-2007, 03:49 PM
Well I dont use stealth all the time but you can definately lose them after they hear you, easily, just by moving fast enough away till you are out of earshot. EG: the crucible, underwtaer key area. I can 99% of the time get the attention of a single Knoll ( 1 of 6) and pull him around corner by letting him hear me moving. When he comes to investigate I just back up (faster sneaking enhancement helps and haste) and then pounce when the others cannot see. Repeat 5 times and you have a key and horn. But the point is that at any given time I can move far enough away where he loses interest. This is on elite as well so.....

But there has to be some compromise for gameplay. If the rules were the way the O.P. wants them every quest would be a cakewalk for a rogue cept when they see invisable. If you had a 30 plus hide, move silent, then you would be totally invisable. The Original poster hit the Hobgoblin, duh what do you expect.

Not saying that the sneak mechanic couldnt be better, but your confusing (like so many others) PnP rules and applications of DM controlled monsters with DDO and a universal AI for all. Maybe when the holodeck is invented sneak will be more realistic.

Now listen and MS are different.....the Devs said thet hearing you jut smakes them search for you and not actually see you.....this seems to work. (but I don't think it always did)
After reading the Dev's post, I have noticed that if the hear you, all they do is start to actively look for you......in this case, you could sneak away from them and they would eventually give up trying to find you.....note that they never did actually see you.
If they saw you....well then it's all over.

Talon_Moonshadow
11-28-2007, 03:53 PM
Personally my rogue has run smack into the crotch of many monsters while sneaking and was never even noticed.....

Well, I've seen that too, but if they did see me....they would alsways see me no mater what from then on.

parvo
11-28-2007, 04:26 PM
Well, I've seen that too, but if they did see me....they would alsways see me no mater what from then on.

This is not true. If you get far enough away, many mobs will lose track of you and go back to a state of rest. In fact, Ghoste even did that in a couple of his videos.

Borrigain
11-28-2007, 04:58 PM
This is not true. If you get far enough away, many mobs will lose track of you and go back to a state of rest. In fact, Ghoste even did that in a couple of his videos.

Yes, but not always true, and the why? is what's bothering us. Notice even you said "many".....not all.

My example. Running the lovely stealthy repro the other day with my bard/rogue. Sneak, sneak sneak....doin good. Get to 2nd switch, pull it and before I can restealth, bang! one little jerk sees me (my fault..doh!). So he sends up the alarm (he's down in the far room, not the one I came in from).

I'm thinking I can still recover, so I run to him and start singing like a birdy. Fascinate the whole kit and kaboodle down in that room. Head back, restealth, sneak past sleepy little boys in the entrance room (the one the first switch opens) and head down the stairs toward witch doctor. I'm sneaking in that room with the sleepers and the one patrol, and out of the blue......

The whole pack from the previous room rat packs me! Whiskey Tango....!?! Basically have to run back to entrance and leave. Mission hosed.

Now, logic would dictate that since the little buddies (who aren't that smart to begin with), once they came out of fascinate wouldn't know where I went, would search around a little in their area and give up.....OR......

Their sense of smell and/or sight is sooooooo good that they were able to track my footsteps. Now if this is true, how was I able to avoid being smelled when the entrance boys walked right past me?

Add on to that, I've watched bloodhounds do their thing, as well as birddogs, and there's just no way animals track that fast as it took them to come get me. It's like they came out of fascinate, still had me as "aggro" target, and omnisciently knew were I was hundreds of meters away around corners, and made a beeline right to me.

So yeah, stealth works, but losing aggro does not in many cases. Why?

Borr.

A

Ghoste
11-29-2007, 12:36 AM
I belive if you break the line of site with them, and then go invisible or hide, they lose track of you. If you just go invis or hide where they can see you, they still keep track of you. So if a rogue uses diplomacy and the monster ignores them, and they hide or quaff a potion, the mob might just lose track of them.

Or if a caster runs around the corner and casts invisiblity, and then moves behind some crates.
Watch the videos. There is a difference depending on how you were first found out. If you were found out while sneaking and bumped into them, the only way is to put enough distance between them and you...unless you want to...nevermind, not allowed to discuss that on the forums. However, if they see you first, and then you cast invis while standing right out in front of them, even if they are now bumping into you and attacking you, they will lose track of you. Will still search for you, but the searching will be completely random, showing no signs of knowing your location, even intermitantly.

And for those who don't want to go through the whole thread to find all the videos, here are the links:
video 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d_2m0bCvXI)
video 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O-GynoIFDE)
video 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZv84M_mZHk)
video 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1H1lXMGjeY)

and another video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnXQ4ydzO_o) that was not intended for this thread, but did draw some inspiration from the phrase "working as intended".

Ghoste
11-29-2007, 12:37 AM
This is not true. If you get far enough away, many mobs will lose track of you and go back to a state of rest. In fact, Ghoste even did that in a couple of his videos.
Or just watch video #4 and learn how you can lose them (not their agro, mind you they wont be able to follow you at all) while standing toe to toe with them. And I believe it's video number 3 that shows me doing it the way Parvo just described.

Talon_Moonshadow
11-29-2007, 01:42 PM
This is not true. If you get far enough away, many mobs will lose track of you and go back to a state of rest. In fact, Ghoste even did that in a couple of his videos.

I have an example that isn't related to stealth. My Cleric was doing VON3 recently......for some reason I was running alone between the two shrines. On the way from the first shrine to the second one near the beholders, there are some spots where you can choose a couple of different paths to take.......well, of course I took one that the rest of the party had not cleared out yet....actually I took one that leads to a dead end with a few Drow standing there......well....they saw me.....I greater commanded the lot of them and took off to find my way back to the group....................eventually, they made there saves or the spell wore off....and they got up....navigated their way through the tunnels until they found me and started attacking me.......
This was about two minutes after any one of them had had eye contact with me.
I wasn't sneaking, but I was so far awy from them that there is no way they should have known where I went............but they knew.
I think I've seen a similar situation where I went invisible afterwards......the baddie somehow followed me through several passageways until he entered the room I was in.....now I think that he could no longer see me, but he did somehow know I was in that room......he started attacking the air "randomly" in a straight line toward me until he actually hit me......infact, he only had to swing in my direction once for me to be unstealthed.....no 50% miss....and if i remember the situation correctly he miraculously rolled the twenty he needed to hit me the first time.

Again, most of my experiances are old and not very scientific......
But once you have agro, the baddies get magical insight into where you are.....and from my experiances nothing short of blocked paths and AI bugs can get them to loose sight of you. (AI bugs are very common however)