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liamfrancais
09-28-2007, 02:09 PM
Well for me at least. Halt undead is a worthless spell. Now I know what you are thinking that I tried it in the new material and it would not work but no it was in the first set of necro quests and I had maybe one mob halted in over a dozen tries I heightened it I am level 14 and have 32 cha and was using a necro focus item and an Item with +3 to spell pen. Well they are intelligent you say well maybe but are they rolling 20's every time it shouldn't be that hard to halt something other then the basic skeleton.

MrWizard
09-28-2007, 04:39 PM
Well for me at least. Halt undead is a worthless spell. Now I know what you are thinking that I tried it in the new material and it would not work but no it was in the first set of necro quests and I had maybe one mob halted in over a dozen tries I heightened it I am level 14 and have 32 cha and was using a necro focus item and an Item with +3 to spell pen. Well they are intelligent you say well maybe but are they rolling 20's every time it shouldn't be that hard to halt something other then the basic skeleton.

My only guess is heighten is not working with it..

I have it on my sorc for other dungeons where it does work like von5...but the new stuff ignores it pretty well..

I am gonna drop it too....useless until they explain why everything saves no matter what....even if you are 14th level, with a necro feat and a necro item facing an 8th level skelly....

Mad_Bombardier
09-28-2007, 05:01 PM
Wait, first set of Necro quests as in Litany of the Dead 1, Heart Tombs? Something is definitely wrong! I've used the spell on a level appropriate 6Wiz to great effect in both LotD1 (L5-6 range) and Delera's (L5-8 range). In either case, please bug report it. Your 29 Spell DC is more than enough for that level, even on Elite.

liamfrancais
09-28-2007, 05:28 PM
Well I will bug report if for only the fact that it may help others. I feel you are correct though should be able to halt just about everything but the vamp.

sigtrent
09-28-2007, 06:32 PM
My impression is that unlike the description.. uninteligent get the save and intelligent undead are simply immune. Instead of uninteligent are auto effected and intelligent get a save.

I havn't used it a lot but I'm often kind of confused about the results when I do, something is definately wierd.

lizardo666
09-30-2007, 03:34 PM
Just picked it up, have a focus item and an extra +9 from my cha atm ... makes a 23 will DC, did a run in Xorian Cypher on elite (L10 quest) and dropped it like 10 times on groups of 3-4, and not one failed a save ...

Pretty sure there isn't a save, even for archer types ... come-on !!! The only intelligent undead should be casters, and the ones capable of commanding lesser undead. Minion types are just animated, therefore, slim to NO will score ...

Ghoste
09-30-2007, 06:32 PM
Another thing I have noticed about this spell is the difference between its effect on intelligent undead vs unintelligent undead. Uninteligent are halted and stay halted no matter what. Intelligent undead behave as if hypnotized: 1 hit and they're moving around again.

Pretty sure there isn't a save, even for archer types ... come-on !!! The only intelligent undead should be casters, and the ones capable of commanding lesser undead. Minion types are just animated, therefore, slim to NO will score ...
Generally speaking, all generic zombies and skeletons are unintelligent, and no they dont get a save vs halt undead. That includes the casters for whatever reason.

Undead with prefixes (boneshrieker, frost marrow, etc) all seem to be treated as intelligent undead.

Either way, for creatures that are supposed to have mediocre will saves, they do tend to save a lot.

Ghoste
09-30-2007, 06:40 PM
Thought up a way to test this.

Halt undead is a lvl 3 spell. Command undead is lvl 2.

Find a set kind of target that you can repeatedly test this on (intelligent undead). Cast halt undead several times, and count how many times it lands and how many times it fails. Do the same with command undead. Halt should land 5% more often than command.

MrWizard
09-30-2007, 07:57 PM
Thought up a way to test this.

Halt undead is a lvl 3 spell. Command undead is lvl 2.

Find a set kind of target that you can repeatedly test this on (intelligent undead). Cast halt undead several times, and count how many times it lands and how many times it fails. Do the same with command undead. Halt should land 5% more often than command.


I can command(charm) specters and wraiths on elite 16th level dungeons...was never able to halt undead one of them.

I am able to command almost anything I meet undead wise but not halt undead once you hit a certain higher level. Yes some are intelligent but it does not say 'immune' it says 'save'.

Halt undead seldom works for me at elite high level no matter what....it is fun to carry...but I may drop it as useless.

liamfrancais
10-01-2007, 03:56 PM
Going to go through the third of the four in the lvl 6 tonight if nothing else comes along will test it there although I will have to cast command from scrolls unless I have a clickie dont want to swap for it.

MrCow
10-02-2007, 11:30 PM
Yes some are intelligent but it does not say 'immune' it says 'save'.

Probably not completely relavent but I will toss this idea out anyways:

You can grease an ooze and it will show save symbols instead of being tripped. You can't knockdown an ooze.

You can trip a spider and it will show a save symbol instead of being tripped. You can't trip a spider.

So it seems that you can cast halt undead on intelligent undead of a certain HD and get a save symbol, but they are immune. This seems wrong because halt undead has no HD cap.

Jakylpops
10-03-2007, 02:11 AM
Probably not completely relavent but I will toss this idea out anyways:

You can grease an ooze and it will show save symbols instead of being tripped. You can't trip an ooze.

You can trip a spider and it will show a save symbol instead of being tripped. You can't trip a spider.

So it seems that you can cast halt undead on intelligent undead of a certain HD and get a save symbol, but they are immune. This seems wrong because halt undead has no HD cap.

You CAN trip spiders...I've even done it to the ancient arachnids in TBF elite. It only happens once every 100 or so attempts, but they do collapse down onto their abdomens and flail around for a few seconds.

Ghoste
10-03-2007, 02:34 AM
Ya, I have a mothballed trip-fighter on ghallanda who could trip spiders, not always, but still fairly often.

As far as oozes, theydont make a save,"immune" pops up.

MrCow
10-03-2007, 10:37 AM
I stand corrected on the spiders (as I tested it myself and never realized otherwise), but I do not stand corrected on grease vs. oozes.... just that I have a bad choice of words at times.

MrCow
10-03-2007, 11:29 AM
Ok, I went out and did some minor testing on a test subject with my low leveled wizard (so the test subject is fairly low in level too).

Monster: Tormented Bones, a basic CR 9 Skeleton

Casted 20 halt undead spells, 1 landed (it resisted 19).
The spell was cast at DC 21.

Casted 15 command undead spells and counted 5 iterations of a save to break free, 7 landed (it resisted 13).
The spell was cast at DC 20.

For more information on the possible will save of this critter it can be referenced and deduced at the online SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm). These are the likely relevant bits.


Hit Dice Challenge Rating
½ 1/6
1 1/3
2-3 1
4-5 2
6-7 3
8-9 4
10-11 5
12-14 6
15-17 7
18-20 8


Abilities

A skeleton’s Dexterity increases by +2, it has no Constitution or Intelligence score, its Wisdom changes to 10, and its Charisma changes to 1.


Features

An undead creature has the following features.
* 12-sided Hit Dice.
* Base attack bonus equal to ½ total Hit Dice (as wizard).
* Good Will saves.
* Skill points equal to (4 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the undead creature has an Intelligence score. However, many undead are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.

So we are estimating a 20 hit dice monster with no WIS bonus and good will saves. This means the will save should be about 12. From this a DC 20 command undead should have landed/stuck on 8 of the 20 saves (at 7 times succeeding, I was close). Also, a DC 21 halt undead should have landed on 9 of the 20 saves (it landed 1 time, hardly a fluke).

I have no clue on the underlying extra saves that the undead are getting vs. halt undead if they are intelligent. Right now my best guess is they are either nearly immune, being granted double their will save vs. the spell, or something else along those lines.



For further testing I tested halt undead on several undead including blackbone thralls, various eternal skeletons, mummies, the different tormented skeletons and wights in Tomb of the Tormented, and zombies. All of them were eventually hit by a halt undead meaning they are not immune.



And something to add to the saves of monsters, DDO is very good about having generic type monsters to stick to the rules on saves being based on Hit Dice and ability scores. I have yet to come across any deviation from the rules on generic type monsters getting a boost or penalty to saves from what the DnD rules state.

Regardless, Halt Undead is broken on intelligent undead.

Mad_Bombardier
10-03-2007, 11:59 AM
Ok, I went out and did some minor testing on a test subject with my low leveled wizard (so the test subject is fairly low in level too).

<snip>

Regardless, Halt Undead is broken on intelligent undead.Cow, we had a thread going in Dev Discussion. Can you please repost this test info there?

MrCow
10-03-2007, 12:10 PM
Round two of the halt undead saves mystery!

For this test I chose a target that I figured should give me minimal trouble with halt undead, but was intelligent as well.

Monster: Ghoul, a basic CR 1 intelligent undead critter

Casted 100 halt undead spells, 51 landed (49 were resisted). Rounded to a d20 dice this number becomes landing 10 out of 20.
The spell was cast at DC 21.

I have tested the low level critters for stats, HD, and other things and found that nearly every harbor critter on normal is a direct rip from the DnD monster manual. Accurate information (other than HP) can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm).


Ghoul
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +5

At a DC 21 casting and a will save of 5 I should have landed 16 out of 20 halt undead spells. With 100 spells cast at 10 of the 20 halt undead spells landing there is clearly a universal issue with halt undead on several (if not all) intelligent undead.

This ghoul in these tests displayed an effective save of 11. This leads me to believe that either that will save is being doubled or there is some hidden bonus in there. Without more testing I can't make a clear answer as to where this magic number is coming from.

All I know is halt undead is broken on intelligent undead.

MrCow
10-03-2007, 12:11 PM
Cow, we had a thread going in Dev Discussion. Can you please repost this test info there?

Sure thing, once I find the post. :D

Mad_Bombardier
10-03-2007, 12:49 PM
Yay! MrCow goes moo. :D Thanks, MrCow.

sigtrent
10-03-2007, 02:18 PM
I'm pretty sure most DDO monsters have a bit of a boost in many ways over thier PnP base counterparts. I know the devs like to try and use rules like HD advancement and templates to do that, but I think sometimes they just have boosted values.

MrCow
10-03-2007, 07:05 PM
I'm pretty sure most DDO monsters have a bit of a boost in many ways over thier PnP base counterparts. I know the devs like to try and use rules like HD advancement and templates to do that, but I think sometimes they just have boosted values.

I have tested the following information either by intimidation and wisdom modifiers, enervation, circle of death scrolls, contagion: Cackling Doom, and other such methods that I could use to get the following information.

Kobold, 1HD,
Human Necromancer, 4 HD
Human Necromancer (elite), 9 HD
Human Pirate, 2 HD
Mummy, 8 HD
Ogre, 4 HD
Quickfoot Thief (all difficulties), 1 HD
Skeleton, 1 HD
Troll, 6 HD
Wolf, 2 HD
Warrior of the Emerald Claw, 7 HD
Warrior of the Emerald Claw (elite), 9 HD

After several castings of otto's dance, chill touch scrolls, grease, ghoul touch, contagions, etc. I have found that the HD of the critter and the base attributes were often very close to the DnD way of making saves, with the furthest range being 2 from the estimated DnD save.

For instance, the Warrior of the Emerald Claw has 7 HD (a level 7 fighter). On top of that it has the stats of 13 STR, 14 DEX, 14 CON, 12 WIS, 10-11 INT, and a CHA greater than 6. The saves are as below for an estimate:



Fort Reflex Will
Base 5 2 2
Stats 2 2 1
Total 7 4 3


When I ran my tests of casting and measuring at least 60 save attempts on fortitude, reflex, and will each I had a calculated save of 8 fort, 3 reflex, and 3 will. I know that more casting attempts would be closer to the true value, but I only have so much time. Besides, what I got was very close to the estimated saves, and this is a monster that was not in the SRD.

When I did similar data finding tests on the monsters in the SRD, such as the ogre, troll, kobold, and skeleton I found that on normal that the following parts I was exact, one point off, or two points off:


AC
STR
DEX
CON
INT
WIS
CHA
Fortitude
Reflex
Will
HD
To-Hit
Alignment


Now, I realize that several people play on elite setting, so I had a few trials with things like elite kobolds, elite Warrior of the Emerald Claw, and a few other critters. To take the elite Warrior of the Emerald Claw as an example I found it had 9 HD, 19 STR, 15 DEX, 20 CON, 12 WIS, and I didn't bother with INT or CHA. So, this monster has the following estimated saves:



Fort Reflex Will
Base 6 3 3
Stats 5 2 1
Total 11 5 4


I ran the same test on the poor soul yet again. 60 Otto's resistable dances, 60 ghoul touches, and 60 counts of saving vs. grease (and several times back to the tavern for SP). My results ended up showing me a fortitude save of 12, reflex save of 5, and a will save of 6. Once again, very close to the what you would do for a pen and paper game.



From running these saves tests several times on generic non-named monsters I have concluded from this that the saves of monsters follow pen and paper rules.

liamfrancais
10-10-2007, 04:13 PM
Thank you Mr. Cow for putting all the time and effort into testing. I have been testing a little myself but guess I need to look at numbers and such I do however think that halt is bugged.

Beherit_Baphomar
10-11-2007, 02:51 PM
Just wanted to slink in here and say that a Dev posted, one time, that he/she always tried to stay true to PnP mob HD...only the HP's are inflated.

So what you have in your monster manual should be what we get in our MMO.

/slinks back out.

liamfrancais
10-24-2007, 08:32 AM
Anyone try halt on phasing shadows in vol? I was wondering if it would one land and two keep them from phasing?

MrCow
10-24-2007, 10:05 AM
Anyone try halt on phasing shadows in vol? I was wondering if it would one land and two keep them from phasing?

I haven't personally tested halt undead on those particular shadows, but I have tested halt undead on several wraiths and specters. This is likely what you will find:

All of the incorporeal undead are intelligent (and thus use the bugged version of halt undead that grants them what seems to be double their will save). This means that if you do land a halt undead on a Shadow of Vol while it is not in a phased mode it will either save or be halted. If you hit the halted Shadow of Vol then you will break the halt (being intelligent) and it will revert back to phasing in and out and being a royal pain.

The fact that most people only run this quest on elite for looting purposes means you will see the CR 17 versions of the shadows. Shadows are roughly 1 HD per CR with a HD added now and then, so I'm guessing you will see HD 20-23 shadows. Shadows normally have 12 WIS and WIS is rarely increased on higher difficulty undead (unless they use divine spells). This will net about a will save of 13. Given halt undead being bugged on intelligent undead you will be trying to pierce an effective will save of 26... so it isn't really worth trying.

Take all my numbers with a grain of salt because I can still only infer what is going on based on the data I collected with halt undead on intelligent undead.
So far all of the testing I did on halt undead can be found here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1373318&postcount=15), here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1389071&postcount=40) and here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1404227&postcount=64).

liamfrancais
10-24-2007, 11:15 AM
Trying to do a little research on the shadow issue. With them being more the 9HD I doubt undeath to death would work, I did find this in the SRD, "A shadow can be difficult to see in dark or gloomy areas but stands out starkly in brightly illuminated places" and was just wondering if all those everbright weapons and armor may be able to help fight against these creatures, I cant test it now since I am not home but just a thought.

MrCow
10-24-2007, 11:41 AM
The reason shadows fade in and out is because of the fact that they have the incorporial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype) subtype. I don't have a link to the thread, but I do remember one of the developers saying that a wraith/specter/shadow could use a hit-and-run tactic of going through the floor and rising behind you to hit you to hit you. They implemented this instead as "phasing", which isn't quite the right way to go about this. Phasing is supposed to be for ethereal critters, not incorporeal critters.

As far as as what bright light does to a shadow:


A shadow gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas of shadowy illumination. In brightly lit areas, it takes a -4 penalty on Hide checks.

That is not the answer you are probably looking for. What you want is something like Ghost Trap (Incorporeal creatures turn corporeal). I'm sure all the melee folk would love to see that spell implemented.

liamfrancais
10-24-2007, 11:49 AM
I just had a funny thought of a fighter type running around yelling for someone to get it off (a shadow) because he cant hit it the firewall wont kill it and he has the aggro.