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mrtheshaggy
09-27-2007, 10:52 PM
I have a lvl 3 rogue and wanna improve his survivability while maintaing my abilites as a rogue.

Things I definately will keep doing...

-wearing light armor with no armor check penalty
-(if I end up useing a shield) use nothing more than a light shield to avoid armor check penalty.

Two classes that come to mind are fighter (I guess for the bonus feats and I'd go shield) and wizard (first level spells).
Would either of those greatly increase my survivability by taking a level or two in them?

Looking for any form of suggestions/tips on building this rogue to take a beating.

STATS...
Dwarf
Rogue 3
str...14
dex...14
const...14
intelligence...16
wisom...10
charisma...6


Thanks!

Riddikulus
09-27-2007, 10:59 PM
Rogues are fairly squishy so your options are limited:
- more AC (mith breastplate is uber at low levels if you have/can find/can afford it, good shield, prot item, etc.)
- more HP (toughness+dwarven toughness enhancement in your case is a good boost)
- subtle backstabbing enhancement

and most important of all:

- don't solo unless you have no choice
- and don't strike first ... let someone else get the aggro

mrtheshaggy
09-27-2007, 11:00 PM
So you wouldn't recommend multiclassing but would recommend getting shields as a feat (for my needs that is)?

Also, I did not learn toughness, if I were to get it do I only start getting bonuses for the level I learn it at or does it backtrack so I get the +3 for level one and +1 for every other level I have already passed?

Riddikulus
09-27-2007, 11:12 PM
So you wouldn't recommend multiclassing but would recommend getting shields as a feat (for my needs that is)?
Not sure what you mean with shields as a feat... I think you can use anything but tower shields, and you definitely don't want to be lugging one of those around.

I took one level of fighter with my rogue so that I could get the repeating heavy crossbow feat and wear full plate. But they've since fixed evasion so you can't evade in full plate, so now there's no reason for rogue to have the heavy armor feat, and I don't really use a heavy repeater anymore... a good one is uber at low levels but they generally suck at high levels (other than stat damaging or uber ones).

As far as multiclassing in general it can be beneficial, especially splashes due to the small bonus you get in saves and such. You have to weigh however, like in the case of wiz, what spells you plan on carrying and why. Certainly a rogu13/wiz1 carring magic missile will be of very limited utility, and CC (hypno, sleep) will be useless at high levels. I also wouldn't take it for spells like expeditious retreat, since clickies for that abound. So, I guess in summary, it's not something to be done lightly.

mrtheshaggy
09-27-2007, 11:17 PM
I get a -1 attack penalty for not having shield feat.


As far as wizard goes I was thinking about buffs you get at lvl 1. Wouldn't use it for damage. Mage armor stacks with your armor right?

Riddikulus
09-27-2007, 11:29 PM
I get a -1 attack penalty for not having shield feat.


As far as wizard goes I was thinking about buffs you get at lvl 1. Wouldn't use it for damage.

With only one level of wizard you're only going to get a couple spells.

Not sure what you would want it for...

Shield/Nightshield are nice, but at CL1 last only a minute. There are shield clickies that are fairly easy to get.
Jump/Tunble will give you a +10 on those skills for a minute, and there are boots that will come with those spells if you want it.
PfE is all but useless
Detect Secret/Exp Retreat/FF all have clickies and sometimes permanent items.

A level of bard or cleric however would give you the ability to heal yourself.

A level of pally or ranger will give you some benefits (pally aura, ranger favored enemy), plus allow you to use cure wands. Three levels of pally give you fear immunity, another potential point of AC from enhancements, disease immunity... all good stuff.

And to answer your other question, yes toughness is retroactive. You can actually take it at level 6 or 9 and receive full benefit from it then.

Riddikulus
09-27-2007, 11:33 PM
I get a -1 attack penalty for not having shield feat.
I don't think that is what you think it is... a heavy shield will reduce some of your skills by 1, but it doesn't affect attacking.



Mage armor stacks with your armor right?
No, they are both armor bonuses and do not stack. Armor bracers also do not stack with either.

Here's a good thread on what is available in DDO for AC and what stacks and what doesn't:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=115491

mrtheshaggy
09-28-2007, 12:02 AM
Yeah I know it hurts like jumping and stealth, etc...

Been brain storming and what do you think of these...

1. Take a level in wizard. carrying around mage armor, shield, and one other. I'd be able to keep mage armor on and can toss up shield in a hurry during a larger fight. Mana would be good as my int is 16. Could slam all my skill points into magic device so I could carry wands. Also could use items with the built in spells. I'd probably also go after a shield in this case.

2. Keep all rogue and start using a shield

3. Keep all rogue and slam all points into dex, get dual wep and dual wep defense.

4. Same idea as 3 but put a level into ranger.


Pally and Cleric are pretty much out for me since I have **** for wisdom. I'd rather use wands as a wizard as my intelligence is 16.

Also confused as to whether I should focus on dex or strength.


I saw that mithril on the market and it is some pretty crazy stuff. I'll try to get my hands on some!

Aeneas
09-28-2007, 12:51 AM
Mage armor doesn't stack

two weapon defense is a waste

one level of wiz is a waste

my best advice to you is to make sure you can do something original that there's a good chance nobody else in the party is capable of doing.

Everybody tries to max umd anymore or is already a caster. Tanks will always do better damage than you, and once you pass level 8 or so, the casters will outdamage everyone most of the time.

LISTEN UP ROGUES

STOP WORRYING ABOUT HOW MUCH DAMAGE YOUR UBER TWF ROGUE CAN DO!

you'll never be a tank. you'll never be a caster lobbing balls of searing fire and ice. you're a utility man and as such your best option is to plan for the future and make your rogue invaluable for something other than just trapfinding.

traps are a joke in the game. learn to intimidate. stockpile your diplo points. Do something different for a change and let people know that when they draft you into their party they aren't getting just another paper tank who swishes about with a couple daggers doing 10 damage a round and sucking up mana like a fat kid sucks up jello. Everybody can drink a potion, they don't care that you can whip that cure serious wounds wand about and shoot them 18 hit points at will - especially cause most builds have over 200 and monsters hit for more than that on a non crit.

Evolve or die, the game has changed yet again, and twf with umd just doesn't cut it anymore.

Snike
09-28-2007, 05:14 AM
LISTEN UP ROGUES

STOP WORRYING ABOUT HOW MUCH DAMAGE YOUR UBER TWF ROGUE CAN DO!

QFT. Instead think about exploiting the number of swings you get and increasing your to-hit. Take advatage of the # of hits you get with ITWF/GTWF with elemental burst weapons, stat damagers, and weapon effects. Sneak attacks are great, but hugh aggro; and that is deadly for a non-defensive orriented rogue. Try out the precision feat the +4 to-hit helps a lot and you'll see a lot less aggro from your sneak attack while spamming your weapon abilities.

mrtheshaggy
09-28-2007, 08:54 AM
Heh, I'm not worried about damage. I'm worried about surviving longer!

Dariun
09-28-2007, 09:01 AM
Some advice:

1. Get a Heavy Mithril Shield. This will give you absolutely no penalty on anything even though you will get a message saying you are not proficient. Just ignore it. That is the beauty of mithril...

2. Get best armor you can. With your DEX, I would guess Mithril Breastplate.

3. Consider taking that Fighter level and the Toughness feat (you can get it at lvl 6). You can then take enhancements for Fighter Toughness and Dwarven Toughness. This will give you a significant hit point boost. You have a high enough INT that you will be able to keep up all of your rogue skills when you hit your next level. The shield proficiency will get rid of that annoying message from your heavy mithril shield, you'll get a fighter bonus feat, and you'll get to use all the martial weapons.

4. Try to be the "third man in a fight". Wait for the fighter to attack something and then attack the same thing.

5. Don't annoy really tough guys that hit hard enough to kill you in one swing -- ogres, trolls, giants, named hobgoblins. Wait until they are almost dead then finish them off with a sneak attack. Don't attack them when they are at 75% health unless the party really needs you to.

6. Carry aid and barkskin potions. Use them.

7. Get the best "false life" item you can. Get a good "fortification" item too.

8. Make sure you keep UMD maxed. I know you have a 6 CHA, which hurts, but if you keep putting skill points into UMD and get a few good items to boost CHA/UMD, you will (eventually) be able to carry and cast wands like False Life (which stacks with false life items) and Aid.

Dariun
09-28-2007, 09:11 AM
P.S. If you are new to the game, you probably don't have the gold to get all the potions/good items suggested. Just be patient. You'll eventually have the gold. Until then, try not to pick fights with ogres.

Cap_Man
09-28-2007, 12:28 PM
.... learn to intimidate. stockpile your diplo points. Do something different for a change and let people know that when they draft you into their party they aren't getting just another paper tank who swishes about with a couple daggers doing 10 damage a round and sucking up mana like a fat kid sucks up jello. Everybody can drink a potion, they don't care that you can whip that cure serious wounds wand about and shoot them 18 hit points at will - especially cause most builds have over 200 and monsters hit for more than that on a non crit.

Evolve or die, the game has changed yet again, and twf with umd just doesn't cut it anymore.

Ok, I gotta ask .... Intimidate? Why would a rogue want to learn to intimidate?

mrtheshaggy
09-28-2007, 12:47 PM
Yeah, I'm liking how you put fighter into perspective. More weapon feats. Shield feat for free. An extra feat for free. Since I am a dwarf I also get dwarven war axe I think.

I'm saving for tha mithril breastplate.

I also have two feats to trade in. I experimented with quck draw since it was taking forever to switch from my crossbow to my melee weapon which ended up being a problem with my crossbow trying to reload. I also experimented with medium armor but as i stated before I had the armor check penalty to some of my skills.

So I'll grab a quick level in fighter and make up for it later on. Thanks!

Riddikulus
09-28-2007, 01:02 PM
Ok, I gotta ask .... Intimidate? Why would a rogue want to learn to intimidate?
Yeah, that would be an unusual choice for a rogue. Maybe he's looking for faster ways to die.

Diplo and/or Bluff are better choices.

Riddikulus
09-28-2007, 01:07 PM
Yeah, I'm liking how you put fighter into perspective. More weapon feats. Shield feat for free. An extra feat for free. Since I am a dwarf I also get dwarven war axe I think.

I'm saving for tha mithril breastplate.
What server are you on? If you are on Khyber I can see what I have squirreled away.


I also have two feats to trade in. I experimented with quck draw since it was taking forever to switch from my crossbow to my melee weapon which ended up being a problem with my crossbow trying to reload.
My rogue has been much more survivable sword & board over ranged (AC is 42 in robes I think). The only ranged I do now is with throwing weapons.


I also experimented with medium armor but as i stated before I had the armor check penalty to some of my skills.
You don't want medium armor... evasion gets turned off now.

mrtheshaggy
09-28-2007, 01:22 PM
I'm on whatever server starts with a T. I played when it first came out but funds and time made me stop playing until recently. I figured I'd level up to 5 and start nailing stormcleave for armor and weapons (that still a good place to get the goods?).

My plan is to take a level in fighter. The bonus feat will be Dodge. I'll use a heavy steel shield in one hand (suck up the -1 armor check penalty) and a dwarven war axe in the other.

Then I will refund medium armor for toughness and quick draw for something else. I'll take the dwarven toughness too.

So does my weapon and shield choice sound like a good idea. Also, should I be putting my points in dex or strength?

Should I focus in dex or strength? Also, would it be a good idea to take dwarven war axe (getting it free) and use it as well as pump later feats into improving it?

Dariun
09-28-2007, 01:29 PM
Put points into STR if you want to use the dwarven axe (which is a good weapon). Weapon focus: slash might be a good feat to pick up too as well as the dwarf enhancements.

Axe and heavy shield is a good combo. When you find a heavy mithril shield you won't have that -1 armor check penalty anymore.

mrtheshaggy
09-28-2007, 01:41 PM
Yeah, I am very poor. So I have a +2 chain shirt, +2 heavy steel shield, +2 dwarven war axe.

I'll upgrade the shield and armor to mithril and the war axe to something better when funds permit.

Thanks, happy with this build!

mrtheshaggy
10-11-2007, 01:30 PM
Does evasion work with medium armor?

Riddikulus
10-11-2007, 01:35 PM
Does evasion work with medium armor?
Not any more... it was fixed in mod 4.

Yvonne_Blacksword
10-11-2007, 01:48 PM
Supplies:
+XX% striders
Jump potions
barkskin potions
shield of faith potions
a light (or mithril sheild)
some sense.

Self preservation:
Stay away from the heavy hitters...ogres and trolls can kill you with a single hit.
Take out the little guys.
Assist taking out bigger MOBs when someone else has taken agro.
If it gets too hot, defend your cleric. Stay back as pick off stragglers...bring them back to the tanks.

Selective sneak attack:
Your sneak attatck can do impressive damage but only if your target isn't focused on you.
2 swings is all you get then you have agro...
so...
swing swing jump tumble through the other fighters till its off you...
repeat as necessary...
teaming up with a good tank will mean as long as you don't hit first you will never pull agro from that tank..

I prefer Heathers, or Kelser...um...fighters or barbs.

Self sufficient:
Bring cure potions/wands.
Even if you can't use the wands...the cleric will usually appreciate them.

Riddikulus
10-11-2007, 02:07 PM
Selective sneak attack:
Your sneak attatck can do impressive damage but only if your target isn't focused on you.
2 swings is all you get then you have agro...
so...
swing swing jump tumble through the other fighters till its off you...
repeat as necessary...
teaming up with a good tank will mean as long as you don't hit first you will never pull agro from that tank..

I prefer Heathers, or Kelser...um...fighters or barbs.
Yeah I like getting behind a barb with a 2 hander,
wait for him to swing, then I tab-click-tab-click-tab-click...

Impaqt
10-11-2007, 02:42 PM
You should not be using Dwarven War Axes Right now. A Pure Rogue is NOT proficient with them and you getting a -4 Attack Penalty there.
Once you tak a level of FIghter or Ranger your will get your Dwarven War axe Proficiency.

Until THen, Stick to Short Swords and Rapiers.

Snike
10-11-2007, 02:59 PM
You are proc in hand axe though, if you still want to utilize your axe enhancement. Hmm and aren't all dwarves proci with dwarven axes reguardless of class?

Impaqt
10-11-2007, 03:00 PM
You are proc in hand axe though, if you still want to utilize your axe enhancement. Hmm and aren't all dwarves proci with dwarven axes reguardless of class?

Nope, Hand axe is a Martial Weapon. ROgues are Proficient in all SImple Weapons, Plus Short Sword, Rapier, and Shortbow

Snike
10-11-2007, 03:47 PM
You are right about the hand axes sorry. But he is a dwarf. So he has 1 axe Proci

Impaqt
10-11-2007, 03:58 PM
You are right about the hand axes sorry. But he is a dwarf. So he has 1 axe Proci
Whats a "1 axe Proci"?

He gets Axe Enhancements if He chooses to take them. WHich can make up part of the Non-Proficency Penalty.... Otherwise, Hes out of luck on axes until He takes a Martial Class.

SableShadow
10-11-2007, 04:11 PM
twf with umd just doesn't cut it anymore.

Switch from wand whipping to scroll whipping (blur and stoneskin for a basic defense on top of fearsome or some other special effect armor/robe, displacement before you jump into anything serious) and it does.

I get where your coming from, though: locks and traps aren't enough to make a rogue an asset to a party. We must adapt or die out.

SableShadow
10-11-2007, 04:46 PM
I have a lvl 3 rogue and wanna improve his survivability while maintaing my abilites as a rogue.

Things I definately will keep doing...

-wearing light armor with no armor check penalty
-(if I end up useing a shield) use nothing more than a light shield to avoid armor check penalty.

Two classes that come to mind are fighter (I guess for the bonus feats and I'd go shield) and wizard (first level spells).
Would either of those greatly increase my survivability by taking a level or two in them?

Looking for any form of suggestions/tips on building this rogue to take a beating.

STATS...
Dwarf
Rogue 3
str...14
dex...14
const...14
intelligence...16
wisom...10
charisma...6


Thanks!



mrtheshaggy, do you have any data on what's killing you, and how? That'll go a long way...

For instance, when you grab agro, do you circle around/jump over the fighters so they can serve as blockers while you start up on another target (one the fighters are fighting)?

Can you wait a heartbeat before engaging? That'll let the fighters grab agro, then you can go in, take a few swings, get agro, step back for the fighters to reestablish agro, go in, etc.

Usually, living and dying on a low hp/low ac character is a matter of tactics. I'm a dedicated itwf fighter, but I have a shield (#5 on my hotbar) in case I need a bit more ac for the adventure....and while there are 'ac doesn't matter' threads, those are talking about the endgame. At level 3, you'll see a *big* difference if you strap on a light shield when things look tight or your tanks can't hold agro.

At the level you're at, that extra offhand attack isn't getting you a lot unless you've got something special in it (like, say, a weapon of Backstabbing for high ac monsters, a cursespewer/strength sapper/destructor, or bodyfeeder...). Offhand is often a good place for special effects, rather than for straight dps, at least until you get itwf/gtwf (if you're going that route).

At level 14, you're definitely going to want Subtle Backstabber (maxed, I'd say...tried it with and without) and a heavy duty diplomacy item (your cha might be too low to take advantage of that).

SableShadow
10-11-2007, 04:51 PM
Hmm and aren't all dwarves proci with dwarven axes reguardless of class?


Yes, dwarves are proficient in Dwarven Axes. Sounds like he's got the dps, though, and is sorting out agro management.

Riddikulus
10-11-2007, 04:59 PM
Yes, dwarves are proficient in Dwarven Axes. Sounds like he's got the dps, though, and is sorting out agro management.
No, not all dwarves are proficient in Dwarven axes. I was surprised to find that out.

Only Dwarves with martial weapon proficiencies have Dwarven Axe proficiency. Barbs, Fighters, Pallys, Rangers.

binnsr
10-11-2007, 05:02 PM
Supplies:
+XX% striders
Jump potions
barkskin potions
shield of faith potions
a light (or mithril sheild)
some sense.

Self preservation:
Stay away from the heavy hitters...ogres and trolls can kill you with a single hit.
Take out the little guys.
Assist taking out bigger MOBs when someone else has taken agro.
If it gets too hot, defend your cleric. Stay back as pick off stragglers...bring them back to the tanks.

Selective sneak attack:
Your sneak attatck can do impressive damage but only if your target isn't focused on you.
2 swings is all you get then you have agro...
so...
swing swing jump tumble through the other fighters till its off you...
repeat as necessary...
teaming up with a good tank will mean as long as you don't hit first you will never pull agro from that tank..

I prefer Heathers, or Kelser...um...fighters or barbs.

Self sufficient:
Bring cure potions/wands.
Even if you can't use the wands...the cleric will usually appreciate them.

You forgot a fortification item -- if they can't crit you, they can't one-shot you. Heavy fortification is a must-have on all my characters.

SableShadow
10-11-2007, 05:17 PM
No, not all dwarves are proficient in Dwarven axes. I was surprised to find that out.

Only Dwarves with martial weapon proficiencies have Dwarven Axe proficiency. Barbs, Fighters, Pallys, Rangers.

Doh! My bad; you're right. Isn't a proficieny per se, just converts the exotic to martial. :confused: