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HumanJHawkins
09-26-2007, 05:14 PM
A thread attempting to measure attack speed has resulted in testing that seems to show that attack frequency is being inappropriately affected by animation speed or length. That full thread (which is really on a different topic) is here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1361494#post1361494

The gist of it is that it appears, by analyzing the combat log over a specific period of time (i.e. 1 minute), that number of attacks per minute can actually go down when one levels from 4 to 5. (And other cases too, but this is the most extreme example mentioned). And, at the very least, the number of attacks you get is being affected by what weapon you happen to be wielding. (I.e. Falchion may be different from GreatSword).

It seems to me that all of the math behind this game depends very heavily on attacks per round... This must be constant, and should not be sped up or slowed down by the animation of the swing.

The animation should attempt to disply as closely as possible what is actually happening, but it is more important that a combatant get exactly the number of attacks that his BAB dictates, regardless of whether the animation can stay in sync or not. It seems like this is being handled the other way around.

Can a developer set the record straight on this (as we can't build our toons properly without knowing).

Many thanks in advance for any info.

Impaqt
09-26-2007, 05:33 PM
Can a developer set the record straight on this (as we can't build our toons properly without knowing).

Many thanks in advance for any info.


Huh? SO your saying you've been playing for over a year and have yet to Properly build a character?

Are you saying Melee characters are Gimped because it takes an extra .3 seconds in an attack annamation with a Falchion over a Dwarven axe?

twix
09-26-2007, 05:42 PM
Never noticed a difference ... /shrug

HumanJHawkins
09-26-2007, 05:46 PM
Huh? SO your saying you've been playing for over a year and have yet to Properly build a character? Are you saying Melee characters are Gimped because it takes an extra .3 seconds in an attack annamation with a Falchion over a Dwarven axe?

Oh my God! I could post that the game wont run on the latest Intel chip and some idiot would quickly respond that I should buy an older computer. What is with you people?

Did you even read my post? Do you not think it would be a major bug if it turned out that leveling from 4 to 5 made melee for some classes less effective? Because that is what at least one tester found. I am hoping he was wrong, but there is enough evidence that animation is interfering with attack rates that it is plausable. Can't I ask a question without idiots coming out of the woodwork?

Impaqt
09-26-2007, 05:49 PM
Oh my God! I could post that the game wont run on the latest Intel chip and some idiot would quickly respond that I should buy an older computer. What is with you people?

Did you even read my post? Do you not think it would be a major bug if it turned out that leveling from 4 to 5 made melee for some classes less effective? Because that is what at least one tester found. I am hoping he was wrong, but there is enough evidence that animation is interfering with attack rates that it is plausable. Can't I ask a question without idiots coming out of the woodwork?


lol.. ONE person claimed this... You havent verified it.... and its Ruining all your Builds?

No.. Its not game breaking if my animation is slowed down .3seconds the level I gain an extra attack.... Who Notices these things? WHo Cares about these things?

People who are bored with the game and looking for things to comlplain about.. Thats who.....

The Difference Claimed is .3 Seconds.. 300 Milliseconds.......:eek:

Twerpp
09-26-2007, 05:58 PM
All I know is Haste+Maxed Fighters Attack Speed Boost=lots more swings, and it looks cool as hell with a quarterstaff. Makes me wanna roll a Green WF named Donatello.

If your suspected bug is real then it happens to all of us and therefore isnt capable of toon-roll gimpage since we are all have the same identical "problem" anyway.

HumanJHawkins
09-26-2007, 06:05 PM
lol.. ONE person claimed this... You havent verified it.... and its Ruining all your Builds?

No.. Its not game breaking if my animation is slowed down .3seconds the level I gain an extra attack.... Who Notices these things? WHo Cares about these things?


Dude. One person made the somewhat extreme claim that you actually get fewer attacks per minute, potentially because of an animation change. But dozens of others have claimed testing different weapons and finding for example that a great axe gets up to 10 extra attacks per minute. In a 1 minute fight against an end boss, that is huge.

Who cares? I do. And not just out of boredome. Maybe for you it is all about actual gameplay in the quests. And if you aren't getting pwned, you don't care. But for me (and a large percent like me), this is as much a math puzzle as it is a video game.

A lot of people get a lot of enjoyment out of doing the calculations to figure out what is precisely the best choice for the toon they want to build. There are like three people who have written computer programs to help calculate this. And all of that goes out the window if a software bug is throwing a 10% variance into the mix with no info on how it plays out.

So if you are content with the game and this doesn't matter to you, then why come out here and mock a person who is pointing the issue out and asking about it? Oh yeah... Because you are a troll. Well... good shot. I fell for it bigtime.

HumanJHawkins
09-26-2007, 06:12 PM
<cut>If your suspected bug is real then it happens to all of us and therefore isnt capable of toon-roll gimpage since we are all have the same identical "problem" anyway.

Not quite... Based on TWF feats vs. going two handed, a two-weapon fighter is mathmatically superior to two-handed at most in-game ACs. But if an animation issue is reducing a 5 attack/round toon to 3 or even 4 attacks per round for TWF, then 2-handed becomes far superior.

So yes... Comparing similar builds, all are affected the same. But in making choices about what to build, this could have a pretty big effect.

Twerpp
09-26-2007, 06:23 PM
Not quite... Based on TWF feats vs. going two handed, a two-weapon fighter is mathmatically superior to two-handed at most in-game ACs. But if an animation issue is reducing a 5 attack/round toon to 3 or even 4 attacks per round for TWF, then 2-handed becomes far superior.

So yes... Comparing similar builds, all are affected the same. But in making choices about what to build, this could have a pretty big effect.

I agree with you 2-handed fighters are superior.

axebender
09-26-2007, 06:42 PM
heres a question...this is an interesting thread and i dont know how the 3.5 rules work but shouldnt attack speeds be implemented on certain weapons like why isnt a scimitar faster than a long sword or a dagger faster then a scimitar? i havent noticed a diffence in attack speeds but this would make more sense wouldnt it? after all a great axe should take longer to swing around than a dagger.

Knightrose
09-26-2007, 06:51 PM
I've always noticed a difference. Especially between Great Axes, Mauls and Greatswords/Falchions.

A Great Axe or Maul swing faster. It's visibly noticeable.

I've always shrugged it off as a bug I believed Turbine would never fix.

JelloMold
09-26-2007, 06:53 PM
/Casey Kasem voice on/

We have a dedication coming in all the way from Stormreach. Reaching back to 1981, here's a Styx classic: "Too Much Time On My Hands".

HumanJHawkins
09-26-2007, 07:07 PM
<cut>why isnt a scimitar faster than a long sword or a dagger faster then a scimitar?

That's a good question... I think part of the answer is that there comes a point when achieving perfect realism is not worth the increased complexity it creates (before I get flamed, I am not saying this is my opinion. I am only saying that I believe that was the opinion of the developers of the 3.5 rules).

But also, this has at least partly been handled ... For example, you can only attack more quickly with a dagger if you have some skill and dexterity to work with. You might be able to swing the dagger faster, but if the opponent has a shield and longsword that you have to somehow get through in order to attack, you will probably get more actual attack opportunities with a big axe. Thus, daggers are finessable and great axes are not.

All DnD damage is symbolic too... So a lot of this kind of thing is handled in the damage die, crit range, and crit multiplier. No one is claiming that a lvl 14 tank can actually stand there and take 10 solid hits with a battle axe. The fact that he can take these hits by way of having lots of HP, is because the damage taking ability is symbolic of him being able to dodge or block the actual damage.

So, while niether is pleasant, it probably is a lot worse to get hit with a battle axe to the side of the head, than it would be to get stabbed in the forehead with a dagger. The fact that the dagger is only a couple of HP less damaging than a battleaxe may be symbolic of the fact that you might actually get to stab the opponent twice or 3 times for every big battle axe hit.

In any event, like chess which does not resemble war very much at all, you still have to have consistant rules for the game to work out. So whatever the design behind the rules, I think it is important that they be executed accurately. In DnD, the number of attacks per round is based on your "Base Attack Bonus", which is dependant on class and level. The only other thing that is supposed to affect number of attacks per round, is whether you are using two weapons or not.

So, if you are a lvl 1 fighter with a great axe, sword and board, dagger, etc., you should always get exactly 1 attack per round. If you are using two weapons, you should get two attacks (with severe "to Hit" penalties to balance out the benefit and account for coordination issues that 2 weapons bring)

Impaqt
09-26-2007, 07:41 PM
a troll would come into the thread and start attacking you... I havent done that... I'm simply saying its NOT game breaking in any way shape or form. If it does exist.. It effects Everyone he same way.

Lets say one of the devs did come into this thread and said
"I'm here to set the record straight. Some attack animations are slower by design. thats just the way it is"

OR

" We know the animation is a little slower. We plan on increasing the speed 2.7% in a future mod"

How exactly would you change your build to compensate for either situation?

HumanJHawkins
09-26-2007, 11:52 PM
<CUT>Lets say one of the devs did come into this thread and said
"I'm here to set the record straight. Some attack animations are slower by design. thats just the way it is"<CUT>
How exactly would you change your build to compensate for either situation?

If they came in and said, "yes, the great axe is 10% faster than the Great Sword, and we're not going to fix it", then I would know that my two handed build should start using great axes.

If they said, TWF animations delay attacks so you will only get 4 per round rather than 5, I would switch my TWF to a two handed build.

The difference between these build types when done right is about 3%. So, 20% fewer attacks would move TWF from the top DPS to less than average. 10% faster great axe would move it from 3rd best DPS (behind Falchion and great sword) to first.

Soul-Shaker
09-27-2007, 12:42 AM
heres a question...this is an interesting thread and i dont know how the 3.5 rules work but shouldnt attack speeds be implemented on certain weapons like why isnt a scimitar faster than a long sword or a dagger faster then a scimitar? i havent noticed a diffence in attack speeds but this would make more sense wouldnt it? after all a great axe should take longer to swing around than a dagger.

2.0 had weapon speeds, but 3.5 has no weapon speeds. But its not like DDO wanted to keep 3.5 weapon speed rules or proper Number of attacks/tohit degrade(instead of progressive). I mean look at ranged combat.

Cheg
09-27-2007, 12:52 AM
lol@major.

Bug Bug Bug! My sword is swinging 0.28% slower than my axe! Murder Murder!

Vhlad
09-27-2007, 01:46 AM
An issue regarding attack animation is nothing to be dismissive about. The current implementation strays quite visibly from 3.5 guidelines. The reduced rate of fire of ranged weapons compared to melee is one example. To compensate for this, most rangers nowadays (which aren't many) don't even use bows.

The TWF attack chain animation is indeed slower than the sword + shield and two handed attack animations. And a lvl 1 fighter swings faster than a lvl 14 fighter. I made a huge stink about this back when the devs were looking at melee and ranged attack speeds (i.e. back when they removed the alacrity feat, slowed melee down, and fixed the attack bug by adding in a 1 second delay after item swapping).

An important, and very fun, part of d&d is knowing exactly what the rules are (or having the rules available at all times). This allows the player to plan ahead and create their character accordingly.

Min-maxing in DDO can be aggravating if you are basing your decisions off how things work in pnp, which is something that most new players generally do. It's too bad Turbine doesn't provide their subscribers with accurate and robust documentation on the differences between DDO and 3.5.

A few things that could be improved, which wouldn't take more than a day to write up if someone had the information available, and that would greatly benefit new players:


Adding spell durations & mana costs to the spell compendium
Ensuring the races and racial abilities tabs are accurate and complete
More robust information in the skills section (ie. what does each point in tumble do? when do you start flipping? When does jump "cap"? These are things that should be 100% available to new players. The game manual gives more information than the compendium, but it's not complete)
Add more information to the equipment tab (lack of such info is why we have a "definitive loot" thread, but new players may not know to look on the forums for a post by a non-dev on something that has its own heading in the compendium).
Add meaningful stats to the monsters tab, possibly based on CR. Stuff like spell lists, alignment, AC range, etc. (some people are in the process of compiling detailed stats, like hp ranges, to-hit, saves, and so on, but this is a time consuming process. Nonetheless a definitive monster stats thread may one day be available).


Updating the game manual (it's FULL of errors, look at the fighter bonus feat section for example), or adding a separate errata section that includes updates such as enhancements, levels 13 & 14, etc, would also be nice.

Cheg
09-27-2007, 02:25 AM
I thought no-one is using bows because of that long standing bug, where every second hit doesnt even get a roll to hit, it just vanishes into thin air?

Ghoste
09-27-2007, 04:06 AM
The interesting thing about this, and trying to fix it, is that the animation is a pretty important part of the actual attack. Remember how long it took for them to fix repeaters? The jist I got from that whole thing was that the main problem with repeaters was the animation being a bit out of sync. Imagine how ****ed people would be if all of a sudden every melee weapon in the game started bugging the way repeaters used to. Lol, that would be interesting.

Zorth
09-27-2007, 06:36 AM
I am able to make every hit count and can Jump and attack at the same time no matter what the animation point is in. I laugh at those who have no immagination and think they are cool by repeatedly swinging through the animations while just standing in one place. 1, 2, 3, 4. and so on. It took a lot of practice, but I am able to tumble, block, strike jump plus strike and make it look cool as heck. The combos are endless and not easy to do. Whatever!

Nott
09-27-2007, 07:00 AM
I thought no-one is using bows because of that long standing bug, where every second hit doesnt even get a roll to hit, it just vanishes into thin air?

Personally, I believe the attack speed issue and the missing bow shot issue are the exact same issue... animation related. I think the reason this isn't immediately apparent is bow attack speed is in slow motion, as compared to melee speed, and so with bow speed what you're missing is a higher percentage of what you should be receiving.

Vhlad
09-27-2007, 07:02 AM
The TWF attack chain animation is indeed slower than the sword + shield and two handed attack animations. And a lvl 1 fighter swings faster than a lvl 14 fighter.

I should also add that there is a specific way to strafe left and right which allows you to swing faster if you time it correctly.

nalbik
09-27-2007, 07:54 AM
In any event, like chess which does not resemble war very much at all, you still have to have consistant rules for the game to work out.

Since when does chess not resemble a war type scenario?
There should also be a comma between chess and which since the phrase "which does not resemble war very much at all" is an interjectory phrase.


I should also add that there is a specific way to strafe left and right which allows you to swing faster if you time it correctly.

To my knowledge, one would still take a "to hit" penalty for attacking whilst moving. Strafe, I believe, is still considered moving. Correct me if I am mistaken please.

P.S. Who here actually plays D&D the old school way?

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huked on fonix werked fer mi

blakbyrd
09-27-2007, 08:23 AM
The Difference Claimed is .3 Seconds.. 300 Milliseconds.......:eek:

300 milliseconds is also about the same or less time than the average inherent amount of lag on a satellite internet connection.

oronisi
09-27-2007, 08:27 AM
Minus all the BS going on in this thread, I would like to see animations and attack timings to be reviewed and adjusted by the dev team before Mod 6.

I think that it may be effecting the usage of certain weapon types, and hindering a large portion of ranged combat.

Vhlad
09-27-2007, 08:36 AM
I should also add that there is a specific way to strafe left and right which allows you to swing faster if you time it correctly.



To my knowledge, one would still take a "to hit" penalty for attacking whilst moving. Strafe, I believe, is still considered moving. Correct me if I am mistaken please.

The technique is to strafe a little, stop, swing, start strafing again at a precise moment after the swing, then stop strafing & swing again, etc (well, you are swinging continously but your strafe movements & stopping has to be precise). So no, no penalty. Not sure how well it works with two weapons, but there is a noticible speed difference when doing this with sword + shield or a two hander (especially a two hander) vs swinging normally. By intended design, swing speed while moving is supposed to be slower than swing speed while standing still. (but as I've said, with careful timing swing speed while moving can be faster).

Lorien_the_First_One
09-27-2007, 10:39 AM
The technique is to strafe a little, stop, swing, start strafing again at a precise moment after the swing, then stop strafing & swing again, etc (well, you are swinging continously but your strafe movements & stopping has to be precise). So no, no penalty. Not sure how well it works with two weapons, but there is a noticible speed difference when doing this with sword + shield or a two hander (especially a two hander) vs swinging normally. By intended design, swing speed while moving is supposed to be slower than swing speed while standing still. (but as I've said, with careful timing swing speed while moving can be faster).

I thought if you moved between swings you were back to the lowest bonus in your attack chain? Isn't that way they reversed the attack chain?

Mad_Bombardier
09-27-2007, 10:43 AM
The technique is to strafe a little, stop, swing, start strafing again at a precise moment after the swing, then stop strafing & swing again, etc (well, you are swinging continously but your strafe movements & stopping has to be precise). So no, no penalty. Not sure how well it works with two weapons, but there is a noticible speed difference when doing this with sword + shield or a two hander (especially a two hander) vs swinging normally. By intended design, swing speed while moving is supposed to be slower than swing speed while standing still. (but as I've said, with careful timing swing speed while moving can be faster).Yeah, I thought that bug got fixed in Mod3 (the video on how to do it was pre-Mod3, at anyrate). If not, meh. :) Twitch play techniques to increase attack speed is one thing. Varying timed animations for core gameplay is another.


I thought if you moved between swings you were back to the lowest bonus in your attack chain? Isn't that way they reversed the attack chain?Yes, you are correct Lorien. You could attack faster, but never got your progressive to-hit bonuses. Which for power players doesn't really matter. Versus most mobs, they hit on a 2 even on the first swing with no bonus.

Snike
09-27-2007, 11:04 AM
I thought I read about this somewhere before. But it was mostly about TWF animations being so long.

Sticky: Current DDO Issues - Status Report (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=108651)


TWF slow attack animations (added as 1 on 06-29-07) – There is evidence that the TWF additional attack animations are slower than the earlier attack animations, resulting in TWF granting less additional attacks over the same period of time than it purports to be granting. Some have argued that the other added benefits of TWF are intended to compensate for the slower attacks. Much more detail is provided in the main thread discussing this issue.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=111343

Raithe
09-27-2007, 11:26 AM
What would be really interesting to find out is why the game designers incorporated these dissimilarities into the animations/game mechanics in the first place. Every movie and animation can be run to fit into any time frame you choose (or, more likely, have its frames chopped to fit within the given time).

I have a feeling that the real reason is "a lack of professionalism" ...

tihocan
09-27-2007, 11:32 AM
I agree, there's a lot to fix in animations. Mostly need to ensure that our attack rate at least does not go down when BAB increases, and that it's the same with all weapons and fighting styles.

Mystyk
09-27-2007, 01:02 PM
I have noticed that you swing a greataxe faster than a greatsword, thus getting a couple more hits at least within a minute. I also noticed that it's due to the animation. So, it's just not one person making some bogus claim, it's a real effect being put into play.

Of course, no one would notice because you're pretty much deadset on the weapon you're going to use anyway. I mean, few barbarians switch frequently between a greatsword and a greataxe. They either want the illusion of higher average damage with GS, or they want the uber fast, often critting GA...