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Partymaker
09-25-2007, 06:59 PM
I so needed to rant about this that yeah, it deserves a new post just for it :p

RANGE COMBAT

IS

WORST

THAN

EVER!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

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And before I start my rant, I just want to say, CODOG, this isn't directed at you personnally (my frustration), the only reason I've put your name in the title is because you're the ONLY one at Turbine who dared to say anything on this, but it was 4 months ago... so I dared to think you'd have the gutts one more time to post on this issue, as no one else wants.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1164352&postcount=14

But sadly, absolutely nothing happened since then and we never had any news on it either. So you're simply my personal "Obiwan-Kenobi", my last hope before I go nuts!:eek: :rolleyes:

And CODOG don't ask me what race/class/weapons/feats, etc.. I'm using, this is COMPLETELY unnecessary. I've tried all range builds possible (so various feats), different races and no matter if I use bows or xbows or repeaters, the fact is, it sucks, all the time, on all races, no matter the class, no matter the level, no matter the feats, no matter the instance, no matter the quest, even no matter if it's rainy or not outside.... the issue is simply omnipresent!:mad:

With some luck, maybe Cathy from QA or even Silthe might answer something to all this... So here's the step by step to reproduce the bug :D

/sarcasm on

1. Create a dexterous toon
2. Buy a range weapon
3. Equip the weapon
4. Buy ammo
5. Equip ammo
6. Pick a quest
7. Enter the quest
8. Pick a mob
9. Fire a couple shots at the mob and you just CAN'T miss what's going on. You really can't miss it cuz it sucks so much that a 5 HPs kobold is gonna be in your face in one sec!! :p

And in 10 months, no one at Turbine have been able to reproduce that bug! :p lmao Slow down on the crack guys and get back to work! :p

Now, if you CAN'T fix it, here are the step by step to do:

1. Admit it once and for all!
2. Put it back to what it was pre-MOD3 before you all messed uselessly with the rate of fire and the reload animation!!! Cuz yeah, it was absolutely useless! Because we "supposedly" were stronger at low-lvls with a unique rate of fire that wasn't increasing as we lvl up (thus not too powerful at all for end-game purpose!), you changed it and now it's completely broken from lvl 1 to lvl 14. Nice fix...

But I probly "lost" all of Turbine in the first steps to reproduce the bug... :p

/sarcasm off
/rage on

Am I upset? YES! Range being my main attraction in this game, I'm wondering more than ever why the heck I'm losing my time/money with u Turbine. The way you're handling this issue is simply a shame for the whole gaming industry! You're simply stealing our money, selling us (range fans) a "dream" you're not even working on!!! :mad: :mad:

Like I said in another post about this, this game doesn't have a billion possibilities to offer, but only 3:

1. You play a caster
2. You play a melee
3. You play range

So your game is 33% broken since November 2006 and you don't even seem to care about it, worst, you really don't seem to be aware of this...

/rage off

Now I realize this is way too late to work on this for MOD5, obviously. :( So I'm gonna be patient a bit more, but if this isn't part of the release notes for the next update after MOD5 release, (which would make it a WHOLE year with crappy range combat), me and my 2 accounts are out of here and maybe I'll be back in 2050 to see if something has been done... :rolleyes:

Now, before any stupid trolls wake up and bash the post, realize that:

1. I'm a founder (not on this account of course) so I freakin know what I'm talking about.
2. I like the game.
3. I really like the game!
4. Seriously, I HAVE to love the game to wait so stupidly for so long for a fix that don't even seems to be coming soon...
5. This isn't an useless rant about "I want red pants" or "I want to change my haircut", I'm talking about PERSISTANT BAD GAMEPLAY ISSUE here, not a personal fantasy I want to see in the game!

I just can't be the only one who is upset with the fact they haven't dealt with this issue asap. So if you are too, just bump the post til someome wake up at Turbine. But I'm sure the Cube is gonna wake up first anyway :p C'mon Cube, eat a DEV, get inside the coding and eat the bug!! EAT THE BUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG! :p

MrCow
09-25-2007, 07:03 PM
1. Create a dexterous toon
2. Buy a range weapon
3. Equip the weapon
5. Buy ammo
6. Equip ammo
7. Pick a quest
8. Enter the quest
9. Pick a mob
10. Fire a couple shots at the mob and you just CAN'T miss what's going on. You really can't miss it cuz it sucks so much that a 5 HPs kobold is gonna be in your face in one sec!!

Dare I ask what step #4 is? :D

Partymaker
09-25-2007, 07:04 PM
Doh lol :p

Solstyse
09-25-2007, 07:29 PM
I am not eniterly sure I understand this rant. So you are compaling cause when you shoot a mob he runs at you full speed to defend himself? Is that right? If so, whew where to start : )
Generaly archer types don't do so well when soling they are a support member, some added DPS. Now if you were complaing about the dps of such archtype I would understand more, but your ranting cause the mobs is on you after a shot or 2 ( I can at least get you daggers thrown before I am attacked and that is without and special enchancments or feats for it )
I am new to game so not sure but isn't there some form of root? or hold? that you could cast on a mob then pick em off as you slowly back up. Or a snare, slow type spell you could use to kite a mob.
I was always under the impression that ranged combant was more of a supplement rather than the main course. But thats just my opinon.
Ok thats all I gotta say.

Osharan_Tregarth
09-25-2007, 07:40 PM
I am not eniterly sure I understand this rant. So you are compaling cause when you shoot a mob he runs at you full speed to defend himself? Is that right? If so, whew where to start : )

Well, he didn't articulate what the actual problems are... But I'm guessing he's actually talking about the "missed" arrow shots. Extremely worse when using auto attack, so I just get to wear out my mouse click finger shooting arrows at things. Because from where I play at, between 1-2 shots out of five just don't do anything if I'm using auto attack... No attack roll, no damage, no nothing. And for me at least, I'll see these effects when I'm aiming at mobs that I can't miss on a 1. If I'm using the manual fire button, then maybe 1 in twenty shots doesn't show up. (If that many)
Generaly archer types don't do so well when soling they are a support member, some added DPS. Now if you were complaing about the dps of such archtype I would understand more, but your ranting cause the mobs is on you after a shot or 2 ( I can at least get you daggers thrown before I am attacked and that is without and special enchancments or feats for it )
I am new to game so not sure but isn't there some form of root? or hold? that you could cast on a mob then pick em off as you slowly back up. Or a snare, slow type spell you could use to kite a mob.
I was always under the impression that ranged combant was more of a supplement rather than the main course. But thats just my opinon.
And the reason for this is... Because of the many bugs and issues associated with ranged combat, combined with the general lack of dps.
Ok thats all I gotta say.


My thoughts in red....

I'm pretty sure that I know what the OP was trying to refer too, but I don't believe he expressed it very well. Here is the text of the link that he posted... Just so you can all be on the same page with your replies. I'd hate for someone to have to do an extra click on a link to be able to follow the conversation. :D


I certainly have noticed this. I'm currently working this issue which turns out to be a number of different issues. I will be rolling out some improvements over time so that we start seeing fewer and fewer of these "misses" that are not misses. Until we get all of the known issues straightened out, your continued patience is appreciated.

If you are "missing" more than 1 in 6 shots, it might be helpful to us if you could post some information. We know there are synchronization issues with repeating crossbows (in fixing the other sychronization issues these should be addressed as well), so please don't post builds with those particular setups.

Please post the following information:

Race/Gender
Classes
Specific bow/crossbow/thrown weapons
Specific feats that enhance ranged combat
Specific enhancements that affect ranged combat
All of your equipped gear
Whether or not you have haste items in particular I am interested in.

Thanks and best regards,

Codog

PS. Happy Memorial Day!

Partymaker
09-25-2007, 08:44 PM
My thoughts in red....

I'm pretty sure that I know what the OP was trying to refer too, but I don't believe he expressed it very well. Here is the text of the link that he posted... Just so you can all be on the same page with your replies. I'd hate for someone to have to do an extra click on a link to be able to follow the conversation. :D

Tx for the precision mister :D

Not that I'm too lazy but I was writing this from the job and had to make it quick, so I didn't developed, well....the obvious :p

For the new player who posted before you, sorry, but if you never played range toon, you'll most certainly have no idea of what I'm talking about, no doubt. Ppl concerned about this knows way too well what I'm talking about tho :cool: No need to go over all of it again... the point of the post is to make Turbine realize they're really lazy and that this should have been fixed like 6 months ago! About time someone wake up in there, this is simply unacceptable...

wundernewb
09-26-2007, 07:31 AM
IMO, from PnP, ranged weapons aren't nearly as useful indoors as outdoors. I can accept that, in a dungeon, fire off a couple arrows to weaken the mob, (although, with inflated mob HP, this isn't as effective in DDO) then switch to melee weapons to finish the job.

Outdoors, the real problem IMO is that, unlike PnP, you don't see the mob soon enough to take advantage of a ranged attack. Mobs generally show up at what I would consider Short range for most missile weapons.

This may not be fixable, as different machines at different settings have different draw distances, and it wouldn't be fair to have a player with a high-end machine able to range effectively outdoors, while a player with an average machine can't.

Since we have damage and HP out of line with PnP anyway, perhaps a solution would be to vastly increase missile damage. (without increasing ROF, or possibly even decreasing it)

Rekker
09-26-2007, 07:48 AM
I don't think Cathy or CODOG work here anymore ???

llevenbaxx
09-26-2007, 07:50 AM
Agree ranged combat feels just off, maybe not for the same reason. Fact is, in a close quarters underground dungeoun, you arent going to get more than one or two shots on a mob before they get to you. Best I can offer there is to be evaisive(ex. running and jumping around like a monkey on crack like I sometimes see:)).

Ive tried to level up a ranger, a thrown weapon rogue/ftr type and a repeater character. Quit all around 7-8. The mobs crazy movements(pathing?) when they are trying to flank or w/e they are trying to do, cause the projectile to miss. Im not rolling an attack for the 5' radius they were standing in a moment ago, Im rolling an attack on the mob. Ranged attacks should function more like magic missle, in the affect that when mobs are in motion, we should still get an attack roll. Any "dodge":rolleyes: bonuses a mob gets should be figured into there normal AC.

Above and beyond that I agree that ROF should be the same as melee attacks.

lizardo666
09-26-2007, 07:51 AM
Yes I have played a ranger (deleted quickly) and a Repeater build F4 - Sorc1- Bard rest (deleted) and encountered the uselessness of it all (save for having some insanely modded bow)

The first issue, which is an issue in the transforming of PnP to DDO is ... simultanious initiative

PnP - u roll - u hit - nuff said (you act, they arent on their turn)

DDO - all actions at same time - u see an arrow flying for 4 seconds you move ...

DDO - no ability to use levitate, fly, climb, therefore you're never safe from being meleed one round after you provoke

There are some obvious fixes, but also create some issues as well ...

PnP you could tumble to a flank, manyshot : realtime: NO

Solstyse
09-26-2007, 08:25 AM
Let me first off apologies for not gully understanding your plight when I responded. But what I took from your post wasn't quiet what you were complaining about.
With that said I have played a ranged fighter in other games ( Ranger EQ, various power based toons in CoH ) and EQ did it well Rangers were good at range, it took a few patches and expansion but they were good.
Now if what I gather now is that your auto attack doesn't hit as much as right clicking and targeting the mob, well it states that as soon as you start the game. I can't quote it cause I am at work and can't log in and make a new toon, but it says something to the extent " for a better chance to hit the target with a ranged weapons target the mob and keep your cursor on him" which makes total sense with the more active combat found in DDO. If you are upset that you can't just click auto attack and a few special abilities and be effect, in my opinion thats not what this game is about. I would hope auto attack wouldn't be as effective,if I wanted to auto attack something to death I would still be plaing EQ.
Now if its truly a problem with auto attack, and without, and your aiming and clicking and still missing like crazy, then that would be a problem, but from what I have read it just seems that when you auto attack a mob and don't keep your cursor on him you miss alot more, well yeah you should. If its the problem where you are actively targeting the mob, and still missing every other shot then you have a point and I support your plea.

Sorry for the original miss understanding.

Beherit_Baphomar
09-26-2007, 08:27 AM
Y'know, I just rolled a ranger....he's a freakin blast btw....and yeah, when you fight things like kobolds and hobgoblins, you miss.

But try to get your no-rolls when fighting slimes that ya miss on a 1.

You know whats happening? The mobs moving out the way....the mobs are stepping out of your line of fire, THATS where the bug is....if you have a mob targetted and he's moving yer gonna miss him....but its not showing a roll because its not anywhere near him.....Now, if it was implemented correctly, we would follow the mob and fire where we thought he was gonna be when my arrow was there....arent rangers supermen of the bow and arrow? We're supposed to be deadly, quick, nimble woodsmen....trained for years with the bow, hunted etc etc...we should know where the mob is going to be, not shoot behind him...

Thats where the problem is OP, not a borked range combat system with arrows disappearing, the mobs are moving.

Seriously, tell me how many phantom arrows you get while hitting slimes....zero.

Beherit_Baphomar
09-26-2007, 08:32 AM
Agree ranged combat feels just off, maybe not for the same reason. Fact is, in a close quarters underground dungeoun, you arent going to get more than one or two shots on a mob before they get to you. Best I can offer there is to be evaisive(ex. running and jumping around like a monkey on crack like I sometimes see:)).

Ive tried to level up a ranger, a thrown weapon rogue/ftr type and a repeater character. Quit both around 7-8. The mobs crazy movements(pathing?) when they are trying to flank or w/e they are trying to do, cause the projectile to miss. Im not rolling an attack for the 5' radius they were standing in a moment ago, Im rolling an attack on the mob. Ranged attacks should function more like magic missle, in the affect that when mobs are in motion, we should still get an attack roll. Any "dodge":rolleyes: bonuses a mob gets should be figured into there normal AC.

Above and beyond that I agree that ROF should be the same as melee attacks.


And there ya go, same thing Im seeing.

EinarMal
09-26-2007, 08:35 AM
Y'know, I just rolled a ranger....he's a freakin blast btw....and yeah, when you fight things like kobolds and hobgoblins, you miss.

But try to get your no-rolls when fighting slimes that ya miss on a 1.

You know whats happening? The mobs moving out the way....the mobs are stepping out of your line of fire, THATS where the bug is....if you have a mob targetted and he's moving yer gonna miss him....but its not showing a roll because its not anywhere near him.....Now, if it was implemented correctly, we would follow the mob and fire where we thought he was gonna be when my arrow was there....arent rangers supermen of the bow and arrow? We're supposed to be deadly, quick, nimble woodsmen....trained for years with the bow, hunted etc etc...we should know where the mob is going to be, not shoot behind him...

Thats where the problem is OP, not a borked range combat system with arrows disappearing, the mobs are moving.

Seriously, tell me how many phantom arrows you get while hitting slimes....zero.

There are problems far beyond auto-attack. The rate of fire is so low that DPS gets way to far behind melee at the upper levels. Most rangers end up almost never using a bow in the upper levels and they get all the best bow feats for free. TWF is so much better than a bow 95% of the time is spent fighting with two weapons except for a few special quests/situations.

Solstyse
09-26-2007, 08:50 AM
There are problems far beyond auto-attack. The rate of fire is so low that DPS gets way to far behind melee at the upper levels. Most rangers end up almost never using a bow in the upper levels and they get all the best bow feats for free. TWF is so much better than a bow 95% of the time is spent fighting with two weapons except for a few special quests/situations.


Well it might suck, but it is far from a problem and is very logical. I will make you a deal, you get a bow and arrow. I will get a baseball bat, and we will see who hits who faster and more. Better yet I will get 2 bats and give you a crossbow, I will stand 20 yards away and we will see who wins.
Its just logical, I would like to see more of a need for ranged attacks at certain times or more / better enchaments that make the DPS go up per shot go up or maybe MAYBE make you fire much faster.
But when it all boils down to it it makes sense, better off sitting back in a group firing and letting the fighters / barbarians do their melee thing.
/shrug

EinarMal
09-26-2007, 09:00 AM
Well it might suck, but it is far from a problem and is very logical. I will make you a deal, you get a bow and arrow. I will get a baseball bat, and we will see who hits who faster and more. Better yet I will get 2 bats and give you a crossbow, I will stand 20 yards away and we will see who wins.
Its just logical, I would like to see more of a need for ranged attacks at certain times or more / better enchaments that make the DPS go up per shot go up or maybe MAYBE make you fire much faster.
But when it all boils down to it it makes sense, better off sitting back in a group firing and letting the fighters / barbarians do their melee thing.
/shrug

In PnP you can fire a bow the same number of times per round as you can attack with a sword. Not sure if this is logical but it is the rule.

As far as Rangers having to "stay back" a well built TWF Dwarf Ranger can hang with a fighter in terms of DPS any day.

And as far as real life examples etc... it really just depends. Attacks in DnD assume some feinting etc.. you aren't just swinging wildly. So you are over simplifying what the attack stands for.

If you really want to talk about logic I will take the bow and you can have the bat and we will start 50 feet apart and see how many swings you get in given that one arrow and you are not going to be running real quick if at all to swing that bat.

llevenbaxx
09-26-2007, 09:03 AM
There are problems far beyond auto-attack. The rate of fire is so low that DPS gets way to far behind melee at the upper levels. Most rangers end up almost never using a bow in the upper levels and they get all the best bow feats for free. TWF is so much better than a bow 95% of the time is spent fighting with two weapons except for a few special quests/situations.

QFT.

In the round it would take the mob to get to a ranger(or any high level bow user) you should be able to plunk 3-4 arrows in them, manyshot not included. I got in on the subject a little late ill admit, what was the reasoning behind a ranged attacker not having the same attack rate as a melee?

binnsr
09-26-2007, 09:04 AM
I don't think Cathy or CODOG work here anymore ???

Possibly true for Cathy_n QA (Last Activity: 07-23-2007 06:34 PM), but Codog was here earlier this week (Last Activity: 09-23-2007 11:35 PM)

llevenbaxx
09-26-2007, 09:14 AM
In PnP you can fire a bow the same number of times per round as you can attack with a sword. Not sure if this is logical but it is the rule.

As far as Rangers having to "stay back" a well built TWF Dwarf Ranger can hang with a fighter in terms of DPS any day.

And as far as real life examples etc... it really just depends. Attacks in DnD assume some feinting etc.. you aren't just swinging wildly. So you are over simplifying what the attack stands for.

If you really want to talk about logic I will take the bow and you can have the bat and we will start 50 feet apart and see how many swings you get in given that one arrow and you are not going to be running real quick if at all to swing that bat.

We all are far from expert archers lol. Ill admit, give any goofball a bat and a bow and he will be able to swing faster. This has no weight in the argument. A ranger is a master with a bow, something 99.9% have NO experience with. Also melee is not just swinging a bat wildly at the air, there is supposedly bobbing and weaving involved. You know, looking for that openning to deliver the killing blow.:rolleyes: DDO took it an MMO step further by speeding up melee combat, something I think they are/will start to regret as the attacks/round increase as the level cap increases.

From a balance standpoint a ranged combatant should be able to hang in there with regards to DPS, minus strength and weapon mods. It should be as viable as melee, he shouldnt have to revert to melee to hang in there damage wise.

EDIT- Not to mention the bow is a martial weapon requiring specialized training while a bat is little more than a glorified club, easily weilded in one or two hands.;)

Beherit_Baphomar
09-26-2007, 09:30 AM
This is all true too...ranged attack rate should be faster...its nowhere near plain ole melee...

Seriously, rangers are an awesome class, Im having a ton of fun levelling my lil guy, but if ranged attack is borked then you're really making what? A rogue that cant open/disable locks/traps? A paladin without lay on hands? A fighter without the strength and armour?

Rangers need ranged attacks, its really what they should be about...its kinda in the name....

So basically two things need to be fixed at the moment. One being the rate-of-fire needs to be dramatically increased -shouldnt be too hard to fix, right?
And two being the mob targetting...if yer targetted on a mob, you should have an attack roll...no mobs moving out the way, hit or miss.

Solstyse
09-26-2007, 09:36 AM
Well if we throw all logic out the window then you should be able to fire as fast as someone swings, acurately. It should be balanced , but balance doesn't work out so well most the time.
I actualy do bow hunt pretty effectively. So I do know how it all works. And unless you shoot me in the head, with enough force behind your shot to actualy go through my skull your not going to win the bow/bat fight of 2007.
Now yes Rangers are suposed to be experts at bow fighting, but on the same hand a Fighter is a master at weapon fighting in general, so that makes that argument pretty null and void.
Now all I am saying is I am not so sure its bugged, or if it just needs to be tweaked a bit so it can be on par with weapon fighting. Maybe a little less but closer than it is.
Oh well I feel bad for posting at all cause I am not against a change, I just wanted too see the logic behind it and I think I do now.
I think I am going to go make a Ranger and bow hunt some Kobolds to death. And then when things get to close to me I can whip out my 2handed weapons.

I have a quick question for all the Rangers out there, would you give up the free 2HW feat, for viable ranged DPS?

Missing_Minds
09-26-2007, 09:41 AM
I think I am going to go make a Ranger and bow hunt some Kobolds to death. And then when things get to close to me I can whip out my 2handed weapons.

I have a quick question for all the Rangers out there, would you give up the free 2HW feat, for viable ranged DPS?

*laughs* But I'm not laughing at your wanting to go two handed. I'm laughing because you think you'll be able to switch your weapon. When you try to switch your weapon when kobolds are about 20 feet from you, and you have ANY attack left in your bow que, you will NOT switch your weapon. Those kobolds are going to get about 2 FREE hits on you before you'll change, IF you change weapons. And if you think you waited long enough but the weapon didn't actually change, and then you hit the attack button, guess what. You just shot another arrow so you have to go through that entire delay again.

Melees have this issue as well, but it is a lot more hidden due to the fact their attack que runs through SOOOO much faster.

edit: oh yeah, you want logic in a world of magic? :)

Solstyse
09-26-2007, 09:46 AM
Adimitingly I have never used a bow in game, but I do make a habit of pulling mobs with my throwing weapons, and I usualy get you good throws off before switching weapons, yes the mob might get a swing or 2 on me, but thats the price I pay for not charging in, but to me its all about enjoying my character, I know throwing is basiclay worthless but I enjoy doing it so I do it.
Even fantasty worlds have logic applied to them, magic or not, cause as long as the magic stays true to the rules of the world then they still fall into the whole logical train of thought.

Now what about my question I posed?

llevenbaxx
09-26-2007, 09:50 AM
Well if we throw all logic out the window then you should be able to fire as fast as someone swings, acurately. It should be balanced , but balance doesn't work out so well most the time.
I actualy do bow hunt pretty effectively. So I do know how it all works. And unless you shoot me in the head, with enough force behind your shot to actualy go through my skull your not going to win the bow/bat fight of 2007.
Now yes Rangers are suposed to be experts at bow fighting, but on the same hand a Fighter is a master at weapon fighting in general, so that makes that argument pretty null and void.
Now all I am saying is I am not so sure its bugged, or if it just needs to be tweaked a bit so it can be on par with weapon fighting. Maybe a little less but closer than it is.
Oh well I feel bad for posting at all cause I am not against a change, I just wanted too see the logic behind it and I think I do now.
I think I am going to go make a Ranger and bow hunt some Kobolds to death. And then when things get to close to me I can whip out my 2handed weapons.

I have a quick question for all the Rangers out there, would you give up the free 2HW feat, for viable ranged DPS?

Hunting is NOT combat. You do not practice reloading because you dont get a second shot.

You can't take an arrow in the throat/heart/organ/vital artery?:rolleyes:

Sorry youre just wrong with that regards. Its perfectly logical. Yes I know its a game, but the idea is to emulate real combat in a fantasy setting.

From range, there is no immediate threat, only continuous methodical fire and reload. As opposed to melee, who are in constant threat and must cautious. Null and void? Nae.:)

Missing_Minds
09-26-2007, 09:51 AM
You know whats happening? The mobs moving out the way....the mobs are stepping out of your line of fire, THATS where the bug is....if you have a mob targetted and he's moving yer gonna miss him....but its not showing a roll because its not anywhere near him.....Now, if it was implemented correctly, we would follow the mob and fire where we thought he was gonna be when my arrow was there....arent rangers supermen of the bow and arrow? We're supposed to be deadly, quick, nimble woodsmen....trained for years with the bow, hunted etc etc...we should know where the mob is going to be, not shoot behind him...

Thats where the problem is OP, not a borked range combat system with arrows disappearing, the mobs are moving.

Seriously, tell me how many phantom arrows you get while hitting slimes....zero.

In a word, Beher you are absolutely 100% WRONG!

Attack shots are being lost between client and server.

Mob running straight line right at me, and I don't get a roll. Right. How about I go one further.
Mob is HELD via "hold person" or "hold monster", several seconds into the spell so there is no more "sliding" around, and I still don't get rolls on it even when I'm standing still as well?

No, This is the stuff the OP is talking about that is upsetting a lot of players.

I have found that I can get less miss chances if I do not auto attack. Do not spam my attack button, such that my archer completely draws the arrow back to her ear and takes aim.

And I do agree also, you'd think our characters would know how to lead shots like the Mobs do, but nope.. we have to be nerfed and they get to be uber beyond freaking belief.

As for our shots not hitting because the mob moves out of line. I have to call bull dung on that as well. But not against you, but against the game. I have lost track of how many arrow shots I have seen go way over my characters head, off to the right or left of them yet I'm still hit. I've seen the shots be 10 feet from me and I'm still taking damage from it. (This is at least understandable from anti cheating code. Aka the same code that will throw you BACK into the giants 30+ feet reach when they smack you even though you've been running away and have a 50+ foot lead on them.)

EinarMal
09-26-2007, 09:51 AM
Now what about my question I posed?

In PnP you do have to pick whether you want bow or TWF feats. The way the game currently is *most* Rangers would choose TWF unless you just really really like archery.

However, the Ranger class is also missing some key things from PnP that have to be made up for somewhat. They for example don't get their animal companions and most of their outdoor and animal abilities are useless in a mostly indoor dungeon designed game.

So, I am not sure, even if Ranged combat were improved, if it would be totally fair to make them choose one or the other given some of the class abilities are missing or don't work in DDO.

If they did make them choose you could still take the TWF feats for example as your normal feats (as long as you met the dex requirement) like everyone else.

If you liked archery and if it were improved, a good solution would be to pick archery as a Ranger then take power attack and IC slashing and just use a two hander for melee.

Missing_Minds
09-26-2007, 09:57 AM
Adimitingly I have never used a bow in game, but I do make a habit of pulling mobs with my throwing weapons, and I usualy get you good throws off before switching weapons, yes the mob might get a swing or 2 on me, but thats the price I pay for not charging in, but to me its all about enjoying my character, I know throwing is basiclay worthless but I enjoy doing it so I do it.
Even fantasty worlds have logic applied to them, magic or not, cause as long as the magic stays true to the rules of the world then they still fall into the whole logical train of thought.

Now what about my question I posed?

You are asking logic from the same people that have stated that red named or better can not be tripped. Remember that whole fantasy = not completely logical thing. Yeah, it is in full swing here. I'd give it up honestly. Saves you a lot of grief.

As for your 2HF vs ranged DPS. *shrugs* DPS style is all a matter of play ablity, style, and equipment. If you've got the gear and the feats, dps is dps. Does it really matter where it comes from? 2HF is great for large number of mobs at once. Ranged is better for the 2-3 mobs that you can target from a distance that don't spawn in right on top of you.

Because of this, I really can't answer your question. My best answer for it is which would be more fun for you and stick with that. Try it, see if you like it. If you don't you don't, if you do you do.

EinarMal
09-26-2007, 09:57 AM
Hunting is NOT combat. You do not practice reloading because you dont get a second shot.

You can take an arrow in the throat/heart/organ/vital artery?:rolleyes:

Sorry youre just wrong with that regards. Its perfectly logical. Yes I know its a game, but the idea is to emulate real combat.

From range, there is no immediate threat, only continuous methodical fire and reload. As opposed to melee, who are in constant threat.

Yes, people highly trained in archery and trick shooting can fire a bow very fast.

llevenbaxx
09-26-2007, 10:15 AM
Yes, people highly trained in archery and trick shooting can fire a bow very fast.

The last part was the most relavent but...

Where you have a little bow experience, I have a little hand to hand experience(only bamboo weapons but..:)). Im actually speaking from a balance perspective more anyway. To put it simple, from PnP they jacked melee up and slowed range down. This from a supposedly prebalanced(yes arguably, not really with regards to this subject though) source. Stack this with the other mentioned problems and ranged combat is in a very sorry state of affairs. Yes?

Zenako
09-26-2007, 10:28 AM
Couple of quick points.

High SPOT values really help seeing mobs at great distances outside. I would routinely notice mobs before anyone else in the party could see them with my Elven Ranger/Rogue.

I never use auto attack (except in special LONG duration situations like a certain demon queen some time ago....) so I do not experience the situation many are claiming affects them. I notice a difference in how often I get hit with return fire if I stand still versus move about some, so I assume the same holds true for moving mobs.

I noticed other funky things with dice rolls last night when fighting some incorporeal undead. When swinging and missing them due to them being incorporeal at the time, I was seeing d20 rolls all over the place, with numbers like 38 + 0 MISS, I am a level 14 using nice gear and do not get to a +0 boost even on the worst days, but it would be interesting to roll a 38 on D20. Then when they were in phase, numbers like 14+26 would show up = hit. So perhaps the code just goes black hole like on us when you get an impossible situation. When that Umbral Gargoyle is out of phase, it just CANNOT be hit, but you might be swinging in the XYZ coordinates where the out of phase critters sits, so the calculation occurs, with a null result and random numbers being generated for the display. Purely guesses here, but perhaps some of this underlies some of the range issues observed. And Rangers being the observant types they are, pick up on this kind of thing.


As for ways to boost Ranger Ranged Attack DPS. One simple way would be to grant them a CLASS Feat at some level of Improved Crit: Ranged, or if they already have that, GReater Improved Crit: Ranged which again increases the Crit Range.

Normal Silver Bow Crits 19-20
Improved Crit Silver Bow 17-20
Greater Improved Crit 15-20

Nice boost, probably not unbalancing but it would seriously help the dps cries.

Mad_Bombardier
09-26-2007, 11:22 AM
Possibly true for Cathy_n QA (Last Activity: 07-23-2007 06:34 PM), but Codog was here earlier this week (Last Activity: 09-23-2007 11:35 PM)Makes me very sad. :( Cathy_n_QA was always so professional in responses and actually followed up with players.

Partymaker
10-09-2007, 07:52 PM
No matter the reasons... range sucks and this is their fault!

Bbbbbbbbbuuuuuummmmmmmmppppppppp :mad:

salmag
10-09-2007, 08:51 PM
At the risk of sounding like a broken record - I have been arguing the range over melee debate many, many, many, many times. Logically, it makes NO sense whatsoever to think that melee is more effective than range. DDO does not follow logic. In their infinite wisdom, someone said melee should out class ranged attacks. So, the Devs thought they were fixing the problem when they nerfed ranged combat. In their minds, the problem IS fixed. The ROF being lower than it should, the Manyshot timer only being 20 seconds (with a 2 minute cool down) instead of a toggle, Improved Precise Shot not being a toggle, firing a couple of times at breakables before the thing breaks, etc... The Devs thinks that all this is NORMAL and good for the BALANCE (or lack thereof) in the game. The devs choose to ignore the fact that ranged combat is broken. We, that play ranged combatants, know that this is not the case in any way shape or form. NOW, it is UNBALANCED in the favor of melee. I will say this again: "This makes NO sense whatsoever." But the Devs feel that they already FIXED the problem. If this is not the case, Devs please respond.

I have been with this game since the second beta (I applied for alpha, and the first beta but I guess because I am not too vocal about anything and I don't post everyday they chose not to let me test it - I am OK with that), and I am a founder on the forums. While I don't post everyday, I do read the forums everyday. I love this game and play it constantly, I just wish for them to lower the Manyshot cooldown timer to 30 seconds. This would AID the re-balancing.

I will still play because the game IS fun and I enjoy it. Just for the record, I have played melee characters and I wind up deleting them in favor of ranged characters, and casters. PLEASE LOOK INTO RANGED COMBAT AGAIN, DEVS; PLEASE.

Xyfiel
10-09-2007, 09:16 PM
I point everyone to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iofGLgqss68

As it seems for rl relation, archery is bout right, it is melee that is too fast.
Done to make the action fast paced and please the zergers I guess. Now with casters coming into their own, I don't know if melee can be slowed down and be fun to play still.

Racolus
10-09-2007, 10:19 PM
/signed

IIRC codog has been saying that he/she is doing 'something', but this was like 2 mod b4.

This ranged combat bug is, perhaps like greater teleport, never gonna be fixed.:(

Serpent
10-10-2007, 02:14 AM
Real life vs DDO is silly. We have walking and talking robots so i think reflections on real life is out. The devs have to know that there is something wrong with ranged combat. So do something about it already, at least adress the situation or give up some info about it.

When auto-attacking with either a returner or bow many of the shots miss, when attacking a mob close by many of the attacks miss, some info has be getting lost between shot fired and mob movement, the rate that a mob moves based upon how fast an arrow travels is wrong, arrows move much faster.

The animation is slowed to give us more feel so I say jsut speed up the animation to mimic the actual speed of a fired arrow. Who knows i may just be wrong.

And casters coming into their own, what was wronf with them before did I miss something.

Sleepy
10-10-2007, 02:53 AM
Real life vs DDO is silly. We have walking and talking robots so i think reflections on real life is out.


We have walking and talking robots in rl. Granted, they aren't near the level of warforged but they're getting there.



Rangers need ranged attacks, its really what they should be about...its kinda in the name....

I don't think theyre that kind of ranger. Think Texas Rangers (only in name though).

Emili
10-10-2007, 02:58 AM
Y'know, I just rolled a ranger....he's a freakin blast btw....and yeah, when you fight things like kobolds and hobgoblins, you miss.

But try to get your no-rolls when fighting slimes that ya miss on a 1.

You know whats happening? The mobs moving out the way....the mobs are stepping out of your line of fire, THATS where the bug is....if you have a mob targetted and he's moving yer gonna miss him....but its not showing a roll because its not anywhere near him.....Now, if it was implemented correctly, we would follow the mob and fire where we thought he was gonna be when my arrow was there....arent rangers supermen of the bow and arrow? We're supposed to be deadly, quick, nimble woodsmen....trained for years with the bow, hunted etc etc...we should know where the mob is going to be, not shoot behind him...

Thats where the problem is OP, not a borked range combat system with arrows disappearing, the mobs are moving.

Seriously, tell me how many phantom arrows you get while hitting slimes....zero.

This poster is exactly correct... I have two high level ranged spec'd characters and a bard who can effectively ranger well. In fact my melee have very good dex and use ranged attack half decently. One thing you notice up front. Auto-attack is useless, not only for ranged but for melee as well. When you're missing the target via auto-attack on ranged it is because the path of the mob has changed. When you're missing a mob with auto-attack (and tab target) on melee is because the mob moved slightly out of your arc of swing(or attack). Is the same thing... the mob shifted and the miss occurs. You probably never noticed it while meleeing even but I sure did on day one, and it's shown up in ranged attack back then because they're utilizing the same mechanic for the moving mob. Plus ask any Barb what happens when they chase a mob chasing a caster in a straight line while swinging on that mob the whole time? ;-) You know what? it's no roll.

Auto-attack is not as efficient and doing it manually - is just how it is, and that's for ranged or melee.

While we're on the subject of archer and ranged weapons DDO is actually quite more forgiving in terms of it's use. The English longbow was the backbone of Englands military strength 800 years ago but in close quarters was a cumbersome weapon. The english copied it from the Welsh - being a Brit and half-Welsh always felt it poorly named;-) Longbows were often built to be as tall as the archer and a well made bow could shoot well in excess of 275 meters using flight arrows. A highly skilled longbow archer could shoot up to 12 arrows per minute compared to a crossbow man (100 year war) could only fire up to three. Now then tell me how many shots DDO lets fly in a minute? I'd wager it's quite bit more.

Hvymetal
10-10-2007, 03:39 AM
Dare I ask what step #4 is? :D
It's kinda like the panty gnomes... :)

CDevil
10-10-2007, 04:58 AM
Y'know, I just rolled a ranger....he's a freakin blast btw....and yeah, when you fight things like kobolds and hobgoblins, you miss.

But try to get your no-rolls when fighting slimes that ya miss on a 1.

You know whats happening? The mobs moving out the way....the mobs are stepping out of your line of fire, THATS where the bug is....if you have a mob targetted and he's moving yer gonna miss him....but its not showing a roll because its not anywhere near him.....Now, if it was implemented correctly, we would follow the mob and fire where we thought he was gonna be when my arrow was there....arent rangers supermen of the bow and arrow? We're supposed to be deadly, quick, nimble woodsmen....trained for years with the bow, hunted etc etc...we should know where the mob is going to be, not shoot behind him...

Thats where the problem is OP, not a borked range combat system with arrows disappearing, the mobs are moving.

Seriously, tell me how many phantom arrows you get while hitting slimes....zero.


Even allowing that this is true (and I don't believe it is), you can see the same error happen in situations where your target can't move anywhere. For instance, I have a WF fighter with a returning throwing axe. Whenever I use it to attack a creature on a ledge (say, in the spider cave on the path to the hobgoblin chief) EVERY OTHER ATTACK REGISTERS NOTHING!!! No die roll/hit/miss/damage, nothing! The animation will still trigger and show the throw, but that's it. It's the same in other areas where I use it to attack casters or archer types that just stand there and try to preforate my hide with magic missiles or arrows; every other attack effectively does not exist.

And YES, I do indeed get phantom strikes when I try using it on slimes, too.

The problem is, indeed, something in the combat system.

Missing_Minds
10-10-2007, 09:19 AM
This poster is exactly correct... I have two high level ranged spec'd characters and a bard who can effectively ranger well. In fact my melee have very good dex and use ranged attack half decently.

(snip)


Do yourself a favor and scroll up where I showed how he was wrong by a factor of 100%.

Beher addressed one issue PCs have vs. NPCs, and that is leading shots. This is fine, however that is NOT the isssue the OP has of which Beher missed completely.

Sleepy
10-10-2007, 02:58 PM
A friend and I have both had all the problems with range mentioned so far. We just manually aim unless they arent moving or are moving in straight line towards or away from me. About the phantom arrows. If you wait just a half a second longer (barely noticable really) then you drastically decrease the amount of them.

Of course they should still fix these problems, but there are ways to work around them.

Codog
10-10-2007, 05:48 PM
I so needed to rant about this that yeah, it deserves a new post just for it

PARTYMAKER! (and everybody else that is interested in this issue)

I really don't like encouraging people to rant by responding to sarcastic and angry posts. However, today I think I encouraged this particular rant by not sharing some more information in the release notes about some work I've been doing to try to alleviate this. So fair enough, you called me out. I'm here and reading and responding to this thread. And no... I don't have time to respond to everybody who yells at me in their posts which I'm sure will erupt after this response.

This last cycle (mod 5) I put in a few fixes that should help with the missing die roll problem. Under load, we were able to reproduce the fact that when the server was hitching you'd miss one and three of your shots. Auto-attack made this problem worse because it exactly (more or less) predicts the moment you should be ready for another attack. So what I'm gathering from this thread is that one of the causes of this has been removed and there are yet other causes of the missed die rolls. It is extremely difficult to simulate in a development environment hundreds people hitting a server and playing an interactive game. Being that I reproduced _a_ problem with synchronization that was tricky and fixed it, I knew that this might not have totally eliminated the problem. Our QA team kicked the bug back to me with "hey it's not completely fixed... but it went from 1 in 3 shots to 1 in 50 shots" under normal dungeon circumstances. I made the call to not release note this because I figured this was likely a compound issue and might not totally go away.

Synchronization issues:

The server thinks you can't perform this action yet because the cooldown timer got out of sync for this action. ( this is what I addressed )
The server thinks the monster is somewhere else... I've noticed this playing with scorpions, wraiths, and spectres most. (still looking at this one) This is likely that the monster is actually "underground" or "in another plane" on the server when you attacked on the client, but hasn't been relayed to your client yet. Race states like this happen and there isn't a lot we can do about it.Design issues:

We use physics to determine whether you get a to hit roll or not. If your arrow doesn't hit the target, you don't get a chance at a to hit roll. We drew a really hard line in our game about this. Player skill, knowledge of D&D rules, and advancement all have to somehow play nice together. You can "physics miss" with melee weapons as well. (although the physics detection boxes are much larger than our arrows) I hope somebody out there has noticed that you can shoot an arrow and get some precise results when shooting untargetted. The choice to have precise aiming for untargetted attacks and using physics drives a lot of the rest of the issues. Virtually, you have a skill based to hit and THEN an advancement based to hit roll.
Perching... monsters can't get everywhere in the game. Our pathing improvements have helped a lot... but every dungeon has some place where you can get safe from monsters immediate attacks.
Due to our freedom of movement in our action combat, you can infini-kite monsters and never really risk being hit by melee style creatures or missile shooting creatures (arcus skeletons for example) if you play with enough twitch skill. I've seen videos of rangers soloing the Queen Lailat by this very tactic. In our damage curves for missile combat, we are somewhat compensating for this fact. This is what I believe feels really dissatisfactory to a lot of people. I shoot this guy 5 times and in 3 seconds Kargon kills everymahbody with his flamamatongue axe. The time you refer to as being when ranged combat was good was a time that when we went on the server and watched over people's shoulders to see how they were playing the game, we saw everybody ... and I mean EVERYBODY ... getting all the monsters mad and going and standing on a perch and killing everything. I thought to myself, "This certainly is fun for people." That rate of fire made bow combat far superior to melee in that you never had to risk anything really. Designers at the time used the cooldown time to limit the damage. (perhaps too much)
Content Issues:

The invisible hidden geometry to keep people from getting stuck ( I call them the "handrails" ) will sometimes get in the way of missiles hitting where they are supposed to and sometimes interfere with camera's view of the world.
Not every dungeon gives the opportunity of perched monsters for ranged classes to be the hero that saves the day. Most of the time, we try to keep a very clear path for monsters to get to you so that we don't get them stuck on irrelevent geometry and ultimately make them unchallenging and not fun.
Some of the perched situations put you at an angle such that autoattack shoots at the center of the monster which angle dictates it would hit the platform instead of the monster proper. Again, untargetted attacks will hit these monsters. We've tried adjusting the height of autoattack targetting... but it yielded worse results when you were above your target or in front of them.
A room or two have had messed up exports that make monsters completely unhittable from a physics perspective.
Our monsters move... A LOT and FAST!So yes... we've made some progress on the technical issues. There are still some open design problems related to "should your autoattack aim predict and shoot at the position the target might be?" and DPS as level cap increases. Is this your primary issue or the DPS balance?

To be completely honest, the content issues are not likely to get fixed in the lifetime of an elf. Total redesign of dungeons or our dungeon sets to make the angles better for targetted ranged attacks is not going to happen. Moving forward with new set pieces, certainly this will be kept in mind. We're not going to change the movement or action model of combat in our game. We will discuss with design ranged combat damage going forward as level cap increases. I am personally VERY committed to fixing technical issues related to this problem. (my sister plays a ranger in our Thursday night games... my father has a barbarian with a repeating crossbow) I play pickup games with other players as I have time. When they are having problems, I recommend that they hit T and go untargetted. This is especially true with monsters on perches or when they are moving.

I'm sorry that my lack of a response on this issue has you so frustrated and upset. Let me know what areas are most frustrating. Being specific about what you think sucks is most helpful to us. Most the time we don't have time to respond to it. If you get a /location and pasting it along with the quest you are on into your post with a brief description of your character build and which targets are unhittable, it would be great. Try both targetted and untargetted to see if it matters. Sometimes particular rooms give us a lot of fantastic debugging hints as to what is going wrong. There was a great example of this where a room had a problem with its geometry in which NO arrows could hit any monster... ever. It was a player that discovered this and let us know about it. It may well be that there are more rooms that have errors in their cellmesh export.

Best regards to all of you,

Codog

Mad_Bombardier
10-10-2007, 06:06 PM
Best regards to all of you,

CodogWoot! The 'dog' threw us a bone. :D

binnsr
10-10-2007, 06:08 PM
Woot! The 'dog' threw us a bone. :D

'ats not a bone, mate.. at's a freakin' steak!

thanks for the info, codog!

LordDamax
10-10-2007, 06:08 PM
Awesome reply Codog, thanks.

For me, DPS balance is my issue with ranged combat. I have a lv 1 ranger/lv 13 fighter with every feat possible spec'ed for maximum ranged combat damage. I have an elemental or holy greater bane for every creature type worth having. I use flame arrows on +5 elemental pure good bows. I do everything possible to maximize my damage.

And I still attack half as fast for half the damage as melee classes. I understand the necessary balance - ranged can hit things that cant hit you. But, honestly, mobs move SO fast in this game now thats becoming irrelevant. 2-3 hits before they are smashing you into the ground is the usual now. Perching is irrelevant - if I'm perching, my DPS only dictactes how FAST it dies. A +2 returning shuriken, or a +5 holy bouw of pure good with flame arrows - irrelevant. The bow kills it faster. When I'm perching and out of danger, who cares.

I just doint feel the ROF and the DPS of bows makes up for the 'ranged' aspect of 'you cant get me because I'm ranging you' - like I said, they either triple-haste-sprint to you and you have 2-3 shots worth (and then you are hamburger), or they are being perched and it's irrelevant anyway.

Kargon
10-10-2007, 06:10 PM
This is what I believe feels really dissatisfactory to a lot of people. I shoot this guy 5 times and in 3 seconds Kargon kills everymahbody with his flamamatongue axe.

This Untrue! Kargon nevermer use silly axe, axe are for dwarves, and kargon not even believe in dwarves. they just realamally fat halflamings. It are flamamatongue falcimion!!! :D

DragonKiller
10-10-2007, 07:27 PM
Codog... just frigg'n AWESOME! A detailed, and relevant response by a Dev, who even appropriately takes blame where it's appropriate and speaks the truth where it's needed.

Since I play a ranger a lot, I will pay more attention to this and attempt to help. I rarely use Autoattack though as I'm a Range/TWF build.

While I do agree that range isn't as powerful as meele, it is still a very powerful ability. With my Ranger I have the ability to reach out and touch a bad guy from a long ways away. I have also found that using the correct bow makes a HUGE difference. I am lucky enough that since I have had my Ranger for well... since I joined DDO... and have a large selection of bows so I can switch out to the appropriate bow for the appropriate baddy.

I would like to see however that a level 14 Ranger is much more skilled, fires faster, farther, and quicker than a level 1 Ranger. That seems to make a lot of sense to me.


P.S. Kargon... you still crack me up. :D

Partymaker
10-10-2007, 07:30 PM
First, to answer the guy who talked about the slimes thing... you probly aren't totally wrong, but you aren't right either. :eek: True that we almost never get miss on slimes cuz they move slowly, but it still happens sometimes even if rare.....but when I range a mob and that he decides to zerg on me asap, in a straigth line, it's gonna happens too! And this isn't because he's moving left or right...he's just running to me in a straigth line and it still happens.

For CODOG...... THANKS! :D Sorry for all the sarcasm in this post, I just couldn't help myself that evening, was way too ****ed off :p You know, I so love range combat that if everything was fine with it, I would most probly only play range toons :) After so much efforts since MOD3 to get Devs attention on this, I just got out of control that evening it seems, kinda like Kargon on the battlefield :eek: :p :D

And I still want to specify again that I wasn't mad at you at all, even if it may have looked that way with all my sarcasm. :rolleyes: I simply used your name to try to get some attention of the ONLY guy, since launch, who had the gutts to give us some feedback on this subject :) I knew that way I might have a small chance for another feedback :p

For further exchange, I'll put the sarcasm off Codog, no worries :p Tx for taking some time to give us all some feedback and I'll try to report to you anything I can notice that might help to improve range combat in the future.

What I find REALLY strange in all this is... when u guys released MOD5, the very first day of it, range was soooooooooooooooooooo smooth you wouldn't have believe it. :D I couldn't believe it! I wasn't getting ANY ghost shots on any range toons (repeaters and bows), be it a high lvl or a lowbie... I was getting all my shots, everytime. Lasted only one day tho... :( Next day, it was worst than ever, we got massive lag spikes again and went back to the "old style", needless to say it was very disappointing but worst, unplayable/unenjoyable... wouldn't that be related to some synchro issues too? If so, it might not be totally fixed :( But I don't know much about server's stuff so I can hardly help in any way about that :(

Jaywade
10-10-2007, 07:50 PM
GOOD JOB DOG

wish more of your Dev firends would post in such a manner

SteeleTrueheart
10-10-2007, 09:36 PM
That has to be the best post from a Dev I have ever seen. Wow and Thank You!

Asal
10-11-2007, 01:05 AM
WOOHOO

Two great post from Developers (Codog and Bunsen (Dr Bunsen Honeydew perhaps? :) )) in two days. So much better then the silence of the last few months

Codog
10-11-2007, 02:20 AM
What I find REALLY strange in all this is... when u guys released MOD5, the very first day of it, range was soooooooooooooooooooo smooth you wouldn't have believe it. :D I couldn't believe it! I wasn't getting ANY ghost shots on any range toons (repeaters and bows), be it a high lvl or a lowbie... I was getting all my shots, everytime. Lasted only one day tho... :( Next day, it was worst than ever, we got massive lag spikes again and went back to the "old style", needless to say it was very disappointing but worst, unplayable/unenjoyable... wouldn't that be related to some synchro issues too? If so, it might not be totally fixed :( But I don't know much about server's stuff so I can hardly help in any way about that :(

Thanks everybody. The thing I keep in mind when somebody is hopping angry is that they care about the game (or the concept of our game at least) and want it to be better. We have a lot of common ground there.

I find your comment above to be very interesting. I'm going to be looking over performance data for launch day, any patches that were applied, and see the relationship. I wonder if we fired up during an off peak time if we would see better performance. I'm glad that somebody other than me saw it working properly even if only for a moment. If it is related to peak concurrency, I have an inkling of what might be happening. Next time you see really bad performance, try firing manually without spamming the attack button. Wait for a brief moment after each reload and let's see what happens. I'm betting you won't see a miss that isn't related to monster movement or a asset placement issues. I'm going to get a friend to jump down into a tavern brawl and I can play with it during peak times. (that eliminates monster movement) I know you'd volunteer to shoot me if you could. :D

This has to be one of three likely scenarios. If you didn't see glitchiness in your movement, then I know one of the three is not as likely. I'll keep working on it, and we'll get it figured out. Mod 3 introduced cooldown timers to ranged combat and that is when we started seeing this happen. There was a problem that the duration of the cooldown on the client and server didn't agree. That was the fix in mod 4 that didn't get announced. Mod 3.1 had a fix for animations not being synchronized with the cooldown timer when players amped up the speed of combat through leveling. These were subtle problems to catch on a local server. I'm hoping that one of these releases we will throw this bug into the gelatinous cube and be done with it.

When we do, drinks will be on me in the Anvil Fire Inn on Argonesson. Unfortunately, it will be vials of blue liquid and cool yummy milk because of our teen rating. :rolleyes:

Best wishes,

Codog

PS. Kargon... I'm so sorry for implying that you use a fat halfling weapon. It was insensitive of me to use you in a hypothetical situation not involving ham.

Luthen
10-11-2007, 02:30 AM
PARTYMAKER! (and everybody else that is interested in this issue)

I really don't like encouraging people to rant by responding to sarcastic and angry posts. However, today I think I encouraged this particular rant by not sharing some more information in the release notes about some work I've been doing to try to alleviate this. So fair enough, you called me out. I'm here and reading and responding to this thread. And no... I don't have time to respond to everybody who yells at me in their posts which I'm sure will erupt after this response.

This last cycle (mod 5) I put in a few fixes that should help with the missing die roll problem. Under load, we were able to reproduce the fact that when the server was hitching you'd miss one and three of your shots. Auto-attack made this problem worse because it exactly (more or less) predicts the moment you should be ready for another attack. So what I'm gathering from this thread is that one of the causes of this has been removed and there are yet other causes of the missed die rolls. It is extremely difficult to simulate in a development environment hundreds people hitting a server and playing an interactive game. Being that I reproduced _a_ problem with synchronization that was tricky and fixed it, I knew that this might not have totally eliminated the problem. Our QA team kicked the bug back to me with "hey it's not completely fixed... but it went from 1 in 3 shots to 1 in 50 shots" under normal dungeon circumstances. I made the call to not release note this because I figured this was likely a compound issue and might not totally go away.

Synchronization issues:

The server thinks you can't perform this action yet because the cooldown timer got out of sync for this action. ( this is what I addressed )
The server thinks the monster is somewhere else... I've noticed this playing with scorpions, wraiths, and spectres most. (still looking at this one) This is likely that the monster is actually "underground" or "in another plane" on the server when you attacked on the client, but hasn't been relayed to your client yet. Race states like this happen and there isn't a lot we can do about it.Design issues:

We use physics to determine whether you get a to hit roll or not. If your arrow doesn't hit the target, you don't get a chance at a to hit roll. We drew a really hard line in our game about this. Player skill, knowledge of D&D rules, and advancement all have to somehow play nice together. You can "physics miss" with melee weapons as well. (although the physics detection boxes are much larger than our arrows) I hope somebody out there has noticed that you can shoot an arrow and get some precise results when shooting untargetted. The choice to have precise aiming for untargetted attacks and using physics drives a lot of the rest of the issues. Virtually, you have a skill based to hit and THEN an advancement based to hit roll.
Perching... monsters can't get everywhere in the game. Our pathing improvements have helped a lot... but every dungeon has some place where you can get safe from monsters immediate attacks.
Due to our freedom of movement in our action combat, you can infini-kite monsters and never really risk being hit by melee style creatures or missile shooting creatures (arcus skeletons for example) if you play with enough twitch skill. I've seen videos of rangers soloing the Queen Lailat by this very tactic. In our damage curves for missile combat, we are somewhat compensating for this fact. This is what I believe feels really dissatisfactory to a lot of people. I shoot this guy 5 times and in 3 seconds Kargon kills everymahbody with his flamamatongue axe. The time you refer to as being when ranged combat was good was a time that when we went on the server and watched over people's shoulders to see how they were playing the game, we saw everybody ... and I mean EVERYBODY ... getting all the monsters mad and going and standing on a perch and killing everything. I thought to myself, "This certainly is fun for people." That rate of fire made bow combat far superior to melee in that you never had to risk anything really. Designers at the time used the cooldown time to limit the damage. (perhaps too much)
Content Issues:

The invisible hidden geometry to keep people from getting stuck ( I call them the "handrails" ) will sometimes get in the way of missiles hitting where they are supposed to and sometimes interfere with camera's view of the world.
Not every dungeon gives the opportunity of perched monsters for ranged classes to be the hero that saves the day. Most of the time, we try to keep a very clear path for monsters to get to you so that we don't get them stuck on irrelevent geometry and ultimately make them unchallenging and not fun.
Some of the perched situations put you at an angle such that autoattack shoots at the center of the monster which angle dictates it would hit the platform instead of the monster proper. Again, untargetted attacks will hit these monsters. We've tried adjusting the height of autoattack targetting... but it yielded worse results when you were above your target or in front of them.
A room or two have had messed up exports that make monsters completely unhittable from a physics perspective.
Our monsters move... A LOT and FAST!So yes... we've made some progress on the technical issues. There are still some open design problems related to "should your autoattack aim predict and shoot at the position the target might be?" and DPS as level cap increases. Is this your primary issue or the DPS balance?

To be completely honest, the content issues are not likely to get fixed in the lifetime of an elf. Total redesign of dungeons or our dungeon sets to make the angles better for targetted ranged attacks is not going to happen. Moving forward with new set pieces, certainly this will be kept in mind. We're not going to change the movement or action model of combat in our game. We will discuss with design ranged combat damage going forward as level cap increases. I am personally VERY committed to fixing technical issues related to this problem. (my sister plays a ranger in our Thursday night games... my father has a barbarian with a repeating crossbow) I play pickup games with other players as I have time. When they are having problems, I recommend that they hit T and go untargetted. This is especially true with monsters on perches or when they are moving.

I'm sorry that my lack of a response on this issue has you so frustrated and upset. Let me know what areas are most frustrating. Being specific about what you think sucks is most helpful to us. Most the time we don't have time to respond to it. If you get a /location and pasting it along with the quest you are on into your post with a brief description of your character build and which targets are unhittable, it would be great. Try both targetted and untargetted to see if it matters. Sometimes particular rooms give us a lot of fantastic debugging hints as to what is going wrong. There was a great example of this where a room had a problem with its geometry in which NO arrows could hit any monster... ever. It was a player that discovered this and let us know about it. It may well be that there are more rooms that have errors in their cellmesh export.

Best regards to all of you,

Codog

Now THAT is a Dev response. If only all of them were that concise or forthcoming in such a straight forward manner. Thanks Codog.

Xyfiel
10-11-2007, 02:43 AM
Working the night shift or posting from home. If the latter great dedication.

VonBek
10-11-2007, 05:47 AM
I hope somebody out there has noticed that you can shoot an arrow and get some precise results when shooting untargetted.

Yes. Thanks, for that. More than a few times it's kept me from throwing the keyboard in frustration.

tihocan
10-11-2007, 07:28 AM
Just a point. Doing tomb of the shadow knight yesterday (or two days before). There's a lever on the ceiling you have to shoot at. I had a lot of trouble hitting it, and it was NOT because of the bolt being stuck in the geometry. From the exact same position, sometimes it would hit, but most of the time the shot was lost. I had the lever targetted in my orb.

llevenbaxx
10-11-2007, 07:48 AM
Wow nice info, with all the new techniques and suggestions you give, I may try picking the ranger class back up.:)

Also with regards to DPS and "perch" attacking, I may have given up a little early on finding perches to attack from that were actually safe. I will have to give this another shot also.

Thanks.

Missing_Minds
10-11-2007, 08:49 AM
Thanks for all of that wonderful information there, Codog.


I agree with what Partymaker posted. It really did seem to me for the longest of time that the animation did not match up with server time by about .5 seconds. (animation was the only time reference I really had to go by)

Why can you not test on a loaded server is my question. (no I don't expect an answer) it isn't as if you can't set up a script or something to load multipule instances of multiple armys that are constantly spawning. such as an army of orcs vs an army of undead, give them equal arcanes, casters, archers, footmen, etc. just to see what happens. (who knows, maybe it would also improve AI quality?)
Also, do you have a spare computer to act as a delay bridge to mimic all of the hops the standard players have to go through to hit the server with information to mimic more of the race issue you spoke of? Right now it really just sounds like you are testing in a very optimal control environment which is not what players use at all. (aka bad testing standard for quality checking.)

I have noticed that during off peak times that the dice missing on non moving targets is much less.
During normal loads (aka evening times when people play) the not rolling is happening less frequently, however, it is still happening during the spam attacking. (yes, this is on monsters moving in a straight line to me, and commanded on the ground, held, etc.)

Weapon swapping from bows to melee takes twice as long as it would say thrown weapon to melee. (I have no idea why it is, just that it is.)

I still get double arrow shots for one arrow on occasion. This is more easily seen by going into the solo starter quest where you clean the crypt of spiders. I'm a bit of a perfectionist on that quest and I strive to have no coffins broken. I've lost track of the number of coffins that have been broken in the following fashion.
1. target spider.
2. shoot at spider that happens to also be in line of a coffin. Spider is10 feet or so from coffin.
3. spider hit and dies.
4. spider jumps, flips keels over, screams. etc.
5. 1 second later, with no second shot fired ever (attack button pressed only once) coffin breaks.

opinion.

yes, ranged is nerfed esp with all of the issues that exist. HOWEVER, your average player, IMO, is not a twich player, is not a FPS expert, so we can't really play mouselook kill type games. Give our ranged people the same leading shots, and arch shots that the NPCs have. I'll call it good, esp if you are able to get the dice not rolling taken care of.

Oh yeah, before I forget, please double check the size of our characters hit box (personal) detection vs. NPC arrows and their own hit boxes please. When the AI got changed in Mod 4 to actually start to lead shots, I lost track of how many shots went wizing past my head, such to the point my character would have to reach out and jump to catch it but somehow was still hit by the arrow. I've bug reported this issue before, but obviously it got ignored because it is still happening. it may be a case of our arrow boxes being much smaller than theirs. I noticed this a LOT out in gianthold adventure zone.

LordDamax
10-11-2007, 08:52 AM
Now THAT is a Dev response. If only all of them were that concise or forthcoming in such a straight forward manner. Thanks Codog.

Codog - hold a seminar at Turbine called "How to respond to player inquiry"

Best dev response ever I think.

Mad_Bombardier
10-11-2007, 09:07 AM
Now THAT is a Dev response. If only all of them were that concise or forthcoming in such a straight forward manner. Thanks Codog.Hear, hear! Codog gets my vote for Post of the Week (instead of Thread of the Week). And, I think everyone would be fine and dandy with PotW going to a Dev. :D

Beherit_Baphomar
10-11-2007, 10:12 AM
When we do, drinks will be on me in the Anvil Fire Inn on Argonesson. Unfortunately, it will be vials of blue liquid and cool yummy milk because of our teen rating. :rolleyes:

Let me know the time Codod....I'll bring along Plook.

And do you have access to who made those gem/collectable bags? Any chance they could throw a quivver out to us?

Hot dang C-dawg, you must know how many arrows ya gotta carry with ya...I havent reach my House D favour yet...mebbe that makes a big difference....

C-dawg on Agronnessen.....sweet...

Kerr
10-11-2007, 10:41 AM
PARTYMAKER! (and everybody else that is interested in this issue)

I really don't like encouraging people to rant by responding to sarcastic and angry posts. However, today I think I encouraged this particular rant by not sharing some more information in the release notes about some work I've been doing to try to alleviate this. So fair enough, you called me out. I'm here and reading and responding to this thread. And no... I don't have time to respond to everybody who yells at me in their posts which I'm sure will erupt after this response.

I have to say this is an amazing response from a developer. I hope that the other developers can look at this and use this as a model to respond to user concerns on occassion on issues we are having to deal with. Not every little issue, but a significant issue affecting a large portion of the player base.

Well done.

Codog
10-11-2007, 10:51 AM
By the way...

There are Codog imposters running around on the servers pretending to be me. Rest assured, I'll _never_ be playing with a character named that on any server. And to you silly people pretending to be me... I'm trying to talk customer service into letting Kargon be PvP enabled everywhere he goes so he can find you and enforce justamus for all!

Kargon for President 2008!

--Codog

Kisaragi
10-11-2007, 10:56 AM
Then you would have to give everyone else who's not PvP enabled in town, a fighting chance and allow us to throw Kargon's Tasty Ham at people, in which they enjoy the effects of it.

LongshotBro
10-11-2007, 11:05 AM
well first off, let me say i am no expert on all the technical terminology used throughout this thread like precise reload times, etc.
i started playing DDO last december with a short summer break, and i have tried out a number of toons. the last one i made, though, i have stuck with, and he is a ranged combat specialist. in fact, i have never even put a melee weapon in his hand, relying exclusively on the longbow.
he started off as a ranger, and i took this to level 2 for all the free bow feats. then i switched him to a fighter for more feats. i threw a couple of rogue levels in there because i wanted to add some sneak attack damage, and then went back to fighter for more feats.
i have played in a lot of PUGs and also a lot of solo play, and i have never had any problems. in fact it is the most fun toon i've used. my strategy usually involved sneaking around until i spot a mob/monster (invested a lot in spot so he can see pretty far). i target the most dangerous creature, hit auto attack, and start running backwards. true, a little cowardly, but i've backtracked sometimes all the way to the entrance. maybe doubling back if they're not all dead yet. more short kiting if they're weaker or i'm with a party. with enough jump and dodging you can avoid hits pretty easily.
i think maybe the problem is diversification, which will ultimately make your ranged not as good. in general with this game, focusing on one aspect and maxing it is preferable to "a little of this, a little of that" building. my sniping toon is just that - he can't do much of anything else but attack with a bow. there are times i wish he could do more, but when it comes down to it i love ranged combat and he is no slouch. damage output is nice; switching to manyshot is nuts when you have some decent bows like fire, enfeebling, or my favorite curse-spewing. auto-attack and the tab button turns mobs into spineless jellyfish.
i don't always use auto-attack, though, as sometimes the manual aim and fire is handy as well, but 90% of the time it's full auto. you must stock up on arrows - i go through about 1000 each quest between mobs, misses, and breakables.
if you're interested in specifics of my build lemme know and i'll post.
for all your ranged lovers out there - there is a way to have a great ranged build just go with it and throw everything you have towards it. you will not be disappointed and you will keep up with everyone else in terms of damage and even kill count (especially when you cycle through baddies and pick off weakened ones).
viva la range!

Codog
10-11-2007, 11:13 AM
I hope Graal, the treasure designer, doesn't go and make Kargon's Tasty Ham a thrown weapon now! I can't imagine the sound that sucker would make flying through the air. Any votes on whether Kargon would take bribes and show mercy in exchange for tasty ham? Maybe I need to rethink this whole thing...

Off to the bug hunting grounds,

Codog

Beherit_Baphomar
10-11-2007, 11:14 AM
viva la range!

Yup,

This is my first ranger, and he's almost to level 6 now...and man, am I havin some fun with him.

Kiting is awesome, might **** off the tanks in the group, but who cares...its fun....kite to far, double back and kite summore!

I like to do one hit on the caster, pulls their aggro offa the party, and kite away...or whatever the most dangerous NPC is in the battle....ranger speed boost, good AC, fast reaction times....means you get hit very seldom.

I built this guy because I found some very nice weapons on my other two capped guys....seems every time I find something nice it gives me an idea for a build....just cant wait to get Plook to level 10 to start using the good stuff.

Rangers ftw!

Bee.

geoffhanna
10-11-2007, 11:17 AM
Any chance of a change back to the old pre-mod3 days of the reload animation?

It made sense that I would have to reload before I could re-fire my weapon. It does not make sense that I have to reload before I can swap out my weapon.

Vorn
10-11-2007, 11:36 AM
Yup,

Kiting is awesome, might **** off the tanks in the group, but who cares...its fun....kite to far, double back and kite summore!


Nah, doesn't make us mad, I just don't bother chasing...you'll catch up someday.
:p

Zenako
10-11-2007, 11:43 AM
Codog, thats for repsonding to some of the issues raised in this thread. It is clear from the nature of your post that you have some degree of ownership of the issue on how design decisions actually get implemented in the game experience. Thanks for the insight into what has been done and is being done to address some of those implementation issues.

As I mentioned in my first post on this thread, I do not see some of the same issues, but that is probably largely related to never using autoattack for my Ranger.

What often gets overlooked from my perspective by some posters is game balance. Right now there is a certain overall balance between melee/ranged and risk/resouces used. In ranged combat with most mobs, there is often 0 risk of incoming damage until the mob actually closes with the archer. Once within melee range, both sides have chances to hurt and be hurt by their opponent. The chances might not be great, but they exist. Whenever you are hurt, resources get expended (be they Spell Points, or Potions or X/times per rest abilities. Something gets used up to fix the damage.

Yup, currently 24/7 ranged attacks will do less damage 24/7 than melee attacks (assuming both parties are using comparable weapons at the time) and are reasonably speced for that style of fighting. For brief bursts, melee can hype up their attacks using Action Boosts. For brief bursts Rangers can activate Manyshot and REALLY hype up their attacks and DPS.

Where many players see the falling out, is how these abilities continue to scale or not scale as the levels progress when compared to the monsters hit dice and hit points. I personally am not focused on rate of fire, that seems ok to me. What I would like to see along the ways of future tweaks is some way for the ranged attacker to achieve greater damage output that keeps the same relative relationship to melee that exists in the low to mid levels.

They could be changes such as a simple "granted feat" at some level that increases Crit Chance (on top of the Current Feat Improved Critical: weapon type.) Or create some options within the Enhancement system (which given the currently existing ability to restructure makes it the easiest to do with a minimum of harsh feedback and "I got screwed" posts and flames if it was a level/class based feature.) Another "simple" thing would be to create a new House D favor Arrow that was 100% returning. One slot of ammo forever.

Another major part of the problem is not inherent game design, but player choice bias. A great number of players are just not patient enough to let many characters actually take advantage of the skills and abilities they have. Witness the tons of who needs rogues, just run through the traps and fix things up later. Ok, you can do that, but that takes a lot more in game resouces than having the rogue disable that trap(s). That is not the question. Same thing with ranged combat. I have seen many times where parties were in a position to kill mobs using ranged attacks, but some of the players were too impatient and just jumped down to start meleeing the mobs and kill the quicker (and get hurt in the process and either expect to get healed or use up a bunch of healing resouces of their own.) What is driving this mindset is the currency of Time, and more importantly in their minds, "My available Playtime". Those players want to be active and central to the action at all times and to quite often...zerg thru quests just so they can repeat and zerg thru them again in an attempt to get loot or EXP as fast as they can and then be in a position to complain that there is nothing left to do anymore, since they have already been thru everything, albeit at breakneck speed. That is a player playstyle choice and is very hard if not impossible to change within the confines of game and still keep the game enjoyable for everyone. (I mean you could put timers on some doors/portals. They only open AFTER 10 minutes have passed once you kill XYZ, so you have to figure out something to do (like explore the rest of the dungeon level) until the mystic portal opens. Man would that drive zergers nuts and probably earn that quest a HUGE thumbs down from all the speed monkeys, even it is was otherwise a fun quest to play in.)

Klattuu
10-11-2007, 11:55 AM
I hope Graal, the treasure designer, doesn't go and make Kargon's Tasty Ham a thrown weapon now! I can't imagine the sound that sucker would make flying through the air. Any votes on whether Kargon would take bribes and show mercy in exchange for tasty ham? Maybe I need to rethink this whole thing...

Off to the bug hunting grounds,

Codog

I can't imaging Kargon ever condoning the throwing of ham at any time.

EazyWeazy
10-11-2007, 12:26 PM
Thanks for the update. I've been curious about the state of this and I'm happy to see it being addressed.

SneakThief
10-11-2007, 12:42 PM
I hope Graal, the treasure designer, doesn't go and make Kargon's Tasty Ham a thrown weapon now! I can't imagine the sound that sucker would make flying through the air. Any votes on whether Kargon would take bribes and show mercy in exchange for tasty ham? Maybe I need to rethink this whole thing...

Off to the bug hunting grounds,

Codog


ROFLMAO!!!

That has to be the single funniest thing I have read on the forum in months. Thanks man! That mental image will keep me laughing for weeks!

Wulf_Ratbane
10-11-2007, 12:46 PM
I hope Graal, the treasure designer, doesn't go and make Kargon's Tasty Ham a thrown weapon now! I can't imagine the sound that sucker would make flying through the air.

Doesn't matter, since Mod5, it sounds like the smashing sarcophagus.

MysticTheurge
10-11-2007, 01:04 PM
There are still some open design problems related to "should your autoattack aim predict and shoot at the position the target might be?" and DPS as level cap increases. Is this your primary issue or the DPS balance?

I haven't read the whole thread (and I'm not likely to) but I wanted to comment on this.

It's my opinion that targeted shots from PCs should be just as intelligent as the NPCs targeting. That is, if someone's moving, it should predict that movement in that direction.

This doesn't stop you from missing things that are rapidly shifting course and trajectory. But it will allow you to simple target and fire at something moving at a steady speed in a straight line (other than directly towards you).

Kargon
10-11-2007, 01:07 PM
By the way...

There are Codog imposters running around on the servers pretending to be me. Rest assured, I'll _never_ be playing with a character named that on any server. And to you silly people pretending to be me... I'm trying to talk customer service into letting Kargon be PvP enabled everywhere he goes so he can find you and enforce justamus for all!

Kargon for President 2008!

--Codog

Best part of kargon for presimadent... Kargon work for tasty hams!

Mad_Bombardier
10-11-2007, 01:09 PM
I haven't read the whole thread (and I'm not likely to) but I wanted to comment on this.

It's my opinion that targeted shots from PCs should be just as intelligent as the NPCs targeting. That is, if someone's moving, it should predict that movement in that direction.

This doesn't stop you from missing things that are rapidly shifting course and trajectory. But it will allow you to simple target and fire at something moving at a steady speed in a straight line (other than directly towards you).Agreed. With bows at half rate of attack of melee (after the missing shots fix), you don't have to worry about Ranged attacks being overpowered. Mobs can track and "lead fire"; players should be able to, as well. I'm not asking for heatseeking arrows versus human-controlled, twitch-skill players in PvP. But, being able to hit a Kobold moving perpendicular with my LOS is a must.

Kargon
10-11-2007, 01:11 PM
I hope Graal, the treasure designer, doesn't go and make Kargon's Tasty Ham a thrown weapon now! I can't imagine the sound that sucker would make flying through the air. Any votes on whether Kargon would take bribes and show mercy in exchange for tasty ham? Maybe I need to rethink this whole thing...

Off to the bug hunting grounds,

Codog

BLASPHEMAMAMY!! Evermabody know the only ham kargon allow be wastamed by be thrown are Smoke Cured Ham, work like smoke bomb with horrimable chokaming poisiminious smoke on impamact!

Kalanth
10-11-2007, 01:14 PM
My one ranged character is not traditional. I have seen the missing shot bug in the past, and did not pay attention since then.

I use a Warforged Fighter 4 / Wizard 10 with Weapon Focus: Ranged, Weapon Specialization: Ranged, Improved Critical: Ranged, Point Blank Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Shot on the Run, and Rapid Shot.

My biggest concern is that, with this build, I can't run around without the monster targeted. If I was to do that I would miss with the spells that I throw out there. To add in the leading of a target would be a boon for a character like this as I would not need to worry if the target was moving in order to strike them.

In addition, in the time that I have played him, I have noticed that there are ways to forceably break the animation of the shot (such as tumbling) but this does not really decrease the time before I can cast a spell after firing a shot. It is this type of character alone that makes me ask if there is a way to place a break into the animation? A point where the animation continues, but can be interupted so one could cast a spell (i.e. immediately after the arrow is loosed on the target). Because of the unbreakable animation (which can be noticed to a lesser degree with melee) I have held back on making a Ranger / Cleric that I would love to use. I don't want the party wiping out because I could not cast a spell because I fired an arrow just before needing to cast a spell.

Riggs
10-11-2007, 01:24 PM
Thanks for replying Codog.

One of my first characters I leveled up way back when was ana archer build (ranger 2/ftr 8). he was amazing until level 8 or so. Shot on the run and lot of bow feats made for good killing. I never even thought about 'perching on hiding spots' which I only read about in places like the old Redwillow. Run and shoot, run and shoot.

Then monsters get harder. But you didnt shoot any faster. I was attacking at the same speed at level 10 as I was at level 2. Monsters got faster, and that +4 to hit ranged users in melee meant I would get hammered after maybe 2 arrows at most, so it was pointless to range anything that wasnt stationed on a ledge or otherwise unable to reach you. So I gave up on archery.

Over time, have noticed the various 'lost shot' problems on other characters since then, and there are various issues as raised by people here. However the biggest issue for me simply was the lower attacking speed, even with the changes that increased them a bit. I havent done a formal calculation, but it still seems at best to be half as fast as melee.

While increasing ranged firing to be as fast as melee would be unbalancing (and melee got a +1 attack at bab +1 anyway), unless ranged combat attack speed increases by up to maybe 50% more....pretty much anyone over the last year I have seen use a bow only slows quests down. Getting 2 attacks with a bow in the time a ranger could have gotten 7 attacks (using two weapons) is no comparison at all. Even the 4 swings a one handed or two handed user gets is too big a gap.

Unless someone has some seriously sick bows, and is really well built, ranged combat is not only a waste of time, but annoying to other players when someone is running around plinking away, and a fight takes three times as long as it should have because melee types are running around trying to catch the monster the ranged person cant kill. But really measuring effectiveness on the basis of whether or not you have a paralyzing bow say, is not really a valid comparison.

The demon queen is the exception, simply because overrun is such an overpowered ability that melee cannot stand and fight, get close, you fall down. So ranged works because it is easier.

All the issues raised are valid points, and hopes of a fix would be good. However since very few people I know used bows with any regularity (my ranger almost never uses them), the larger issue it seems is the slower attacking, and multishot has such a slow recharge timer that it is only useful for a few seconds, then thats it back to melee.

Have a good day

Kerr
10-11-2007, 02:47 PM
My 14 Ranger doesn't rely on ranged attacks and generally prefers to go TWF. There are however excellent times to use ranged.

Twitchy mobs ... They won't sit still for some freaking reason. I get tired of chasing them since the feats providing attacks on the run doesn't seem to work all the time. So I stop, pull out a bow and start whittling them down.

Running across open zones .. Like in desert or giant or orchard, I pull out a paralyzer and do a little kiting with them. They usually get paralyzed before going far so don't have to worry about a train on us.

Mobs too dangerous to close to melee .. Those pain in the butt air elementals that throw you around. I just pull out a bow with greater elemental bane on it and stay away from them. I get tired of the thrown about the room thing when fighting them so stay out of their reach.

AOE spells damaging me ... If the bad guys drop a firewall or cloud kill or whatever, I back out of it and shoot at them. The mobs aren't smart enough to stay out of our AOE spells, but I'm smart enough to stay out of theirs.

Closing distance ... It's easy enough to get off a few good plinks when closing distances. Softens them up or paralyzes/banishes/disrupts them before you have to put any wear and tear on your equipment.

Protecting equipment ... Bows don't take wear and tear from firing them. Clanging a sword off a mobs' DR and armor does wear those down. Save's some money and prolongs equipment life to use a bit of ranged attacks.

I can't imagine any character exclusively using ranged combat for primary combat in this game however, for the reasons pointed out. It's just not efficient with DPS.

EinarMal
10-11-2007, 02:55 PM
I can't imagine any character exclusively using ranged combat for primary combat in this game however, for the reasons pointed out. It's just not efficient with DPS.

This is the crux of it right here and is right on the money. One normally valid playstyle, using ranged combat as your primary means to kill things just isn't a good choice. Sure there are people who try but after level 8-10 have you ever seen a bow wielder with more than a handful of kills compared to a couple of powerful melee characters?

I can see ranged maybe being at 80-90% of melee damage output due to less risk, but currently it is mostly a waste of time. You can take 12 feats related to bows and still be outdamaged by someone with above average strength, power attack and a two handed weapon. That is seriously screwed up. Oh and you are not only outdamaged but it is not even close.

Zenako
10-11-2007, 03:40 PM
This is the crux of it right here and is right on the money. One normally valid playstyle, using ranged combat as your primary means to kill things just isn't a good choice. Sure there are people who try but after level 8-10 have you ever seen a bow wielder with more than a handful of kills compared to a couple of powerful melee characters?

I can see ranged maybe being at 80-90% of melee damage output due to less risk, but currently it is mostly a waste of time. You can take 12 feats related to bows and still be outdamaged by someone with above average strength, power attack and a two handed weapon. That is seriously screwed up. Oh and you are not only outdamaged but it is not even close.

thru the lens of looking only at damage DEALT within a limited and short time span, 100% correct, but lets change the lens to look at things differently.

No time limit, and you are playing to avoid expending healing resources. Kill at range safely and maybe have to kite a little bit if something lives long enough vs a quicker kill but taking some damage. Damage that probably needs to be healed in some way. Then perhaps the damage dealt over damage taken ratio will look a LOT more favorable. I have yet to see a DPS fighter that did not need healing. mmm. 400 HP barbarian kills the mob but takes 40 points of damage each time. Barb is good for 10 mobs. 200 HP Ranger takes 2 or 3 times as long to kill each mob, but takes no damage since the mob never gets a chance to swing at them. Mmm, only limit is when you run out of ammunition. You could say (and many do) that the time it takes rogues to disarm traps is a waste of time (and many do say that).

Many players obviously do place a high premimum on their time in game, and feeling that their time needs to optimized to the nth degree. How many people are willing to sit around getting healed up with CLW wands (the cheapest form of healing around)? Most consider that a waste of time, but it a very cost effective method. Ranged attacking is "gimped" when placed under the same lens as DPS (with available and required healing) melee.

Jaysensen
10-11-2007, 06:17 PM
thru the lens of looking only at damage DEALT within a limited and short time span, 100% correct, but lets change the lens to look at things differently.

No time limit, and you are playing to avoid expending healing resources. Kill at range safely and maybe have to kite a little bit if something lives long enough vs a quicker kill but taking some damage. Damage that probably needs to be healed in some way. Then perhaps the damage dealt over damage taken ratio will look a LOT more favorable. I have yet to see a DPS fighter that did not need healing. mmm. 400 HP barbarian kills the mob but takes 40 points of damage each time. Barb is good for 10 mobs. 200 HP Ranger takes 2 or 3 times as long to kill each mob, but takes no damage since the mob never gets a chance to swing at them. Mmm, only limit is when you run out of ammunition. You could say (and many do) that the time it takes rogues to disarm traps is a waste of time (and many do say that).

Many players obviously do place a high premimum on their time in game, and feeling that their time needs to optimized to the nth degree. How many people are willing to sit around getting healed up with CLW wands (the cheapest form of healing around)? Most consider that a waste of time, but it a very cost effective method. Ranged attacking is "gimped" when placed under the same lens as DPS (with available and required healing) melee.


Zenako, for the first time I dont totally disagree with your view on ranged combat. In fact, this is the post I most agree with.

You hit it on the head, there are different dimensions of efficiency to play along. Time, healing costs in wands/plat, # deaths etc etc.

The problem is that the hyperfast pace of DDO instances forces the time dimension to be most important for a majority of players. Casual and permadeath not even included in the discussion. IM not dismissing them as an important playerbase. Simply, most of the time, people get more enjoyment of completely wrecking monsters in a timely fashion, rather than kiting things around.


Back on topic, bows seem to follow different rules from Repeaters. Repeaters got a huge boost (apparently temporary) with the mod. The Mod didnt fix any bow issues. I have been crusading for boosts to archery forever now, and the bottom line is that it needs a boost. Any elite player will tell you that.

Archery needs improvement. I commend Codog for doing work on Repeaters, but I believe bows are subject to different issues.

Riddikulus
10-11-2007, 06:19 PM
When we do, drinks will be on me in the Anvil Fire Inn on Argonesson. Unfortunately, it will be vials of blue liquid and cool yummy milk because of our teen rating. :rolleyes:
Seems strange that while both DDO & LOTRO have identical Teen ratings, they can get totally trashed in Middle Earth and Stormreach is dry.

I think you need to take it up as a personal crusade to port the LOTRO drinks and effects over to DDO. :D

KoboldKiller
10-11-2007, 06:24 PM
Very informative post. The DPS still needs to be raised. I know the "risk vs. attack" seems unbalanced compared to melee but why should the class be punished for being what it is? Also it seems to me the MOB rangers do way more damage than we are even close to. Also, as many others have posted we should be able to track them just like they track us with shots. I find it rediculous that a "bow expert" cannot lead a target that is moving. Again though BRAVO CODOG for your response.

Invalid_86
10-11-2007, 09:03 PM
Can we get a response on having the number of bow attacks made in a round being tied to your BAB like they are supposed to? That is something that alot of us have been waiting for for a long time!

Partymaker
10-11-2007, 09:12 PM
I find your comment above to be very interesting. I'm going to be looking over performance data for launch day, any patches that were applied, and see the relationship. I wonder if we fired up during an off peak time if we would see better performance. I'm glad that somebody other than me saw it working properly even if only for a moment. If it is related to peak concurrency, I have an inkling of what might be happening. Next time you see really bad performance, try firing manually without spamming the attack button. Wait for a brief moment after each reload and let's see what happens. I'm betting you won't see a miss that isn't related to monster movement or a asset placement issues. I'm going to get a friend to jump down into a tavern brawl and I can play with it during peak times. (that eliminates monster movement) I know you'd volunteer to shoot me if you could. :D

I volunteer :D :D Just send me a PM :p

I dunno what is considered off peak hours but I can confirm you I was playing at the same hours (1-5 am EST), the release day when everything was fine and the next days when I saw the problem coming back. If that can help in any ways...

--------------------

I kept reading most of the posts here and there's really something that strikes me about the "moving mobs". Haven't been able to read all of them tho so sorry if I'm coming back on something that has already been said. :o

Of course it might be part of a synchro problem and not really part of a gameplay issue but here we go... I'll let Codog be the judge :)

The thing is, when you shot a standing mob, you hit him kinda in the belly, in the center of the mob. So it happens frequently that I'm firing at a mob and suddenly I get the famous "ghost shots" as the mob starts to move... I can clearly see my shot going to hit him, but because he's moving, the bolt animation is gonna hit him let's say on the left side, but it's like I won't get a roll because I didn't hit him straigth in the middle of the mob animation. At least that's the feeling I have about it as I can clearly see my shot should hit him anyway.

I know you talked about manual aiming. I use it fairly enough like it is, imho, it would just be wrong if we're compell to play that way most of the time, like targetting would be useless for range combat. I mean.... Melee can target and swing their target, no? It's like if you were disabling the targetting option for all melees and telling them: "Sorry guys, just look at the mob in the eyes and do your best to take a swing at it, manually! Oh and... good luck!" :p It would be just boring to have to aim manually every play session :(

So don't you think, Codog, it might be a good idea to give us the same "ability" as the range mobs? :D We ARE suppose to be exceptionnals with range weapons/combat aren't we? It's just unfair that a freakin stupid Hobgoblin, or a brainless skeleton, can use a bow the way we should be able to, while we can't :mad:

Best exemple would be with a friend while we were duoing Orchard for Tapestry chests a few days ago. A few Skeletons archers spawned but we continue to run (and on haste!) as they don't move and keep firing at you but man... my Sorc friend almost got killed like 2 minutes later from 2 skeletons that were still firing from the Abyss (read, from so far it's just impossible!) while he was STILL on haste and they weren't missing a single shot at him, unless he was starting to jump... I want THAT too! :D I had to ran a full minute (almost 2 minutes, verified with my buffs that were still running) to go back where the mobs were to kill them, it's just nonsense from a standard PnP and/or even DDO point of view that they could still fire at him from sooooo far.:eek:

What I want isn't to be able to shoot anyone from a mile away tho :p But the fact they could shoot my friend from so far, while he was on haste AND never miss a shot... leads me to think that what we're (range users) asking for is already coded in the game! :D

When a target is jumping, it's really hard to guess how high & how far it's gonna jump and we rarely hit in these situations and I find this very realistic, especially in PvP (cuz mobs rarely jump..)

However, a target moving left or right isn't suppose at all to be THAT hard to aim at. We should be able to hit them straigth everytime if we get a successful hit with the dice roll. If would be a very nice and needed change that would improve range combat significantly.

What do you think about all this Codog? :o

Codog
10-12-2007, 02:29 AM
I did a lot of testing and a lot of recording with the Havok debugger today/this evening. (and no I don't work the night shift)

Everybody claims the monsters are really good at predicting your movement. I created the firing squad test. I made one ranged turreted creature of almost every variety and lined them up, then a circle around me, and then hopped into a dungeon and placed them at good perch spots. I then stripped completely... no armor whatsoever. I then ran around like a fool trying to understand what on earth you are talking about.

One thing that still astounds me is the variety of play styles people employ. One of the more interesting aspects is how people choose to move in the game. Some weave from side to side... some circumstrafe the targets.. some run forward and backward. Some stand still. I found that by setting myself to 1 hitpoint, I could kill them all in a straight line by simply running side to side parallel to the line. I didn't once get hit. (afterall they are turretted and not stuffing a sword through my face) Running backward and forward perpendicular to the line of monsters (heading straight at them), I was murdered relatively quickly. Running forward and ducking and weaving, it took a while longer for them to get me. Standing still... I died a horribly quick death. In a robe, item wear tore my clothes off in seconds. (It was scandalous!) Running in a circle I rarely got hit. Monsters in a circle around me were most effective at pinning me down which was no big surprise. So I was satisfied by this test that playstyle has a lot of differing results. As for range, as long as you are in a monsters area of influence they'll shoot at you. You loose tab targetting with monsters at 60m. However, you can shoot farther than that untargetted.

Watching 20 kobolds running at me, I noticed some interesting things about their pathing and some of their attack animations. In running to their next nodes, often they will side step (akin to running forward and swerving). Since the autotargetting goes through the exact same pathway for players and monsters, ironically, you are using the same thing the monsters are. You'll notice when you fight a kobold standing still, they are jumping to the right and left and then swinging. When they are running, guess what... they are doing the same thing, but it isn't blending well or at all. I turned on physics recording and saw the monster jigjagging on the server. The client interpolates the movement smoothly enough that if the majority of the motion is backward, you don't really see it on the client so much. Kobolds, hobgoblins, and other 'early' monsters (as in the first ones prototyped and put in the game) exhibit this behavior most often. It is not a bit surprising to me now why some of us _always_ see it and others do not. How you move with relation to your targets really defines whether you are going to "physics hit" or not.

I'll talk a bit with our monster designer about this in the morning. Stationary monsters don't get phantoms nearly so often unless it is a content placement issue or the server is hitching really bad. So the good news is that we can try to make monsters select better attacks while moving that don't duck and weave so much and get hidden by client interpolation. I know there is code that already is supposed to be doing this. However, with our pathing rewrite I'm not sure at exactly what point a monster considers himself in range with you and pauses to do his left to right kobold two-step with you.

Another tidbit of information... if you are tight circle strafing your target and they get out of heading / off center by 45 degrees or more, your bow is shooting straight ahead if you are manually firing and you are getting an alert if autoattack is on "you must face blah blah". Sometimes autoattack can be tricked into firing straight. So if you're not keeping the mob in front of yourself, some of those misses are likely resulting from this as well. This is not unlike melee combat in that if you have Joe Kobold targetted but are facing away from him, you can swing your sword and hit his ugly brother that is facing your direction.

I have a few more parameters I want to tweak around to see if I can help with the perpendicular misses against monsters. However, it is bed time and I need sleep badly.

Best wishes out there,

Codog

Bladedge
10-12-2007, 02:43 AM
A dev thats up this late and posting, now thats commitment.

Magnyr_Delorn
10-12-2007, 06:35 AM
I just wanted to say this:

I have never been a fan of ranged combat. It isn't that is inefficient, it just never has appealed to me. Thus, this issue is irrelevant to me.

However I am astounded at the feedback and devotion that we have received from Codog. In my honest opinion this would be an example of TOO MUCH feedback, and what I mean by that is this: on a daily basis issues(some of which might actually matter to me) will be brought up and ignored by the devs that truly needed attention. I will admit that in the past few weeks that I have been impressed with what I thought was a huge issue(the bank losing items thread) was promptly and gracefully taken care of by Bunsen. So perhaps the issue(that of lack of involvement) has been identified and absolved. Perhaps this is a lark.

The main point that I have is this. Codog is on the inside of the game, without a doubt. If the game is "dying" as so many say(and I guiltily have too on occasion) would this guy have spent so much of his time trying to save it? I mean, come on people. Fixing ranged combat affects only probably 15 to 20% of the population.

Thank you very much Codog, and although I don't think that posts and effort this long should be the norm,(nothing else would get done) I VERY MUCH SO APPRECIATE YOUR DEVOTION TO OUR GAME. THANK YOU!

gpk
10-12-2007, 07:39 AM
Codog if I may pick your brain, what of the issue of the ranged/thrown "buffered click" where you end up firing an extra shot after you think you've stopped?
There's also the more important issue of some party member having passed you at a certain angle and deflect shots backwards/upwards? This seems to affect ranged/thrown and projectile spells for us and mobs, it was funny in mod5 preraid to see mages shoot a lightning bolt towards the ceiling tonight.

Issue 2 is also compounded by issue 1, I've fired rotated and had "buffered fire" loose another projectile which gets deflected. More details on http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=123495

MysticTheurge
10-12-2007, 07:41 AM
Everybody claims the monsters are really good at predicting your movement. I created the firing squad test. I made one ranged turreted creature of almost every variety and lined them up, then a circle around me, and then hopped into a dungeon and placed them at good perch spots. I then stripped completely... no armor whatsoever. I then ran around like a fool trying to understand what on earth you are talking about.

It has always been my experience that ranged attacks will predict your motion if you're moving so long as you don't change your motion.

That is. If I'm moving in a straight line (regardless of the direction, toward the monster or strafing it) the ranged attack will predict where I'm going to go. This generally means you can get ranged attacks to miss you by stuttering your movements (sometimes it's fun to try to "fling" kobold's shots way off to the side by doing a quick movement just as they're about to throw and then stopping).

It's also been my experience that player's targeted ranged attacks do not do this. Of particularly note in my memory was the part of Waterworks where you drop down to a room full of kobolds with ramps around the edges over water. Once you kill them, there's a switch to pull that opens a door with slimes behind it. I pulled out my crossbow and pulled the switch. The slime came out at me, basically moving across my screen over the ramp/ledge towards my location. Every single shot I fired missed as it was aimed directly at the spot where the slime was at the moment I fired, despite the fact that it was moving in a straight line at a steady speed.

Granted, much of my experience with these things is fairly old, so things may have changed. But I'll go test some stuff out in waterworks later and see if I can't grab a few videos.

Raithe
10-12-2007, 07:52 AM
Because this thread has sparked some interest for me too, I took my ranger (demon hunter) into the Ruins of Threnal to do some archery testing.

1) I found that I never had any issues with ogres and giants, which I found to be both interesting and a rather marked improvement over previous game mods.

2) I did get several phantom arrows against the black wolves, which despite their zig-zagging behavior, were close enough that there was little chance of missing the mob cylinder (or whatever shape is used in the physics). When attacking untargetted, the area that can be hit to produce an attack roll normally seems fairly generous. I wonder if this tells us something.

3) A behavior of the new mod to de-target mobs under certain circumstances (or perhaps bugs) is quite annoying. I can understand losing a target because of distance. Losing one because you are facing a different direction for a while (or whatever is causing it) is not good gameplay at all, IMO.

EinarMal
10-12-2007, 07:59 AM
thru the lens of looking only at damage DEALT within a limited and short time span, 100% correct, but lets change the lens to look at things differently.

No time limit, and you are playing to avoid expending healing resources. Kill at range safely and maybe have to kite a little bit if something lives long enough vs a quicker kill but taking some damage. Damage that probably needs to be healed in some way. Then perhaps the damage dealt over damage taken ratio will look a LOT more favorable. I have yet to see a DPS fighter that did not need healing. mmm. 400 HP barbarian kills the mob but takes 40 points of damage each time. Barb is good for 10 mobs. 200 HP Ranger takes 2 or 3 times as long to kill each mob, but takes no damage since the mob never gets a chance to swing at them. Mmm, only limit is when you run out of ammunition. You could say (and many do) that the time it takes rogues to disarm traps is a waste of time (and many do say that).

Many players obviously do place a high premimum on their time in game, and feeling that their time needs to optimized to the nth degree. How many people are willing to sit around getting healed up with CLW wands (the cheapest form of healing around)? Most consider that a waste of time, but it a very cost effective method. Ranged attacking is "gimped" when placed under the same lens as DPS (with available and required healing) melee.

My question is why should it be this way? Killing things at range is not unknown in the game through other means, ever seen a FOD specced sorcerer? The whole idea that a ranged character has to run around backwards for 10 seconds to kill something, when a melee character could have just killed them in 3 seconds just seems wrong to me.

You talk about risk/reward and limited resources but *most* players have pretty much unlimited resources to heal between fights. There really is no down side to melee in a game where most people can wand/scroll themselves to full health after every fight through the entire dungeon.

moorewr
10-12-2007, 08:05 AM
Thanks for all the detail you've given us, Codog.

I am always impressed that AI, pathing etc work so well. The only frustrations I get are the occasional misplaced spell (wall of fire in particular) - and that seems to happen when the mobs and I are moving at angles to each other more than anything else. It has always seemed like the people who have a lot of trouble with ranged attacks are the twitch and strafe players . I respect but am unable to emulate them.

There's only one big thing about the AI that bugs me as unrealistic - drop an AoE on a mob, get them aggroed on a caster, and they always try to go toward the caster. If it's obvious there's a door in the way a non-sentient mob might keep raging, but an intelligent enemy ought to back out of the area of effect.

So - in the Maze of Madness the cats ought to keep slamming at the door, and the Minos out to back up or even go hit the door lever. :eek:

Shankd_Dream
10-12-2007, 08:11 AM
what I don't get is why the combats are so stupid, aren't these guys supposed to have that "you're goin down attitude"? Why the does a kobold mage thats hittin for 70pts a pop run around you 900 times and you don't get like a free attack or anything.. do their ac's not drop when they move? Ranged combat isn't great any more because the guys always run in retarted directions so you never get any real shots off.

moorewr
10-12-2007, 08:17 AM
what I don't get is why the combats are so stupid

Well, that's constructive.

Riddikulus
10-12-2007, 08:33 AM
Well, that's constructive.
Way to quote out of context. :rolleyes:

He has a good point in the rest of it.

Dane_McArdy
10-12-2007, 08:38 AM
Way to quote out of context. :rolleyes:

He has a good point in the rest of it.

Well, what parts are good? Like the free attack? how is that meant to happen? Should the computer decide, hey, this kobold is to busy running around, take control of your character and make it attack?

The stuff about AC dropping when moving?

moorewr
10-12-2007, 08:43 AM
Way to quote out of context. :rolleyes:

He has a good point in the rest of it.

I don't think I altered the spirit of his comment. I admit I'm not sure if he meant combatants or combat, or whether the mobs or characters were stupid, or the whole combat itself, but that's what he said.

EDIT: OK< devs, why are the combats so stupid? :)

Riddikulus
10-12-2007, 08:51 AM
Well, what parts are good? Like the free attack? how is that meant to happen? Should the computer decide, hey, this kobold is to busy running around, take control of your character and make it attack?

The stuff about AC dropping when moving?
Taking the first half of one sentence of a paragraph and saying it's not constructive, when the rest of the paragraph had a couple points in it is quoting out of context.

The middle part is basically talking about AOO, which we know is not implemented here.

The last sentence is certainly stating exactly what a lot of people are talking about here.

llevenbaxx
10-12-2007, 08:51 AM
what I don't get is why the combats are so stupid, aren't these guys supposed to have that "you're goin down attitude"? Why the does a kobold mage thats hittin for 70pts a pop run around you 900 times and you don't get like a free attack or anything.. do their ac's not drop when they move? Ranged combat isn't great any more because the guys always run in retarted directions so you never get any real shots off.

Actually their AC would go up while moving I would think. Not really an issue in PnP obviously but I would think firing at a moving target would be much the same as firing while moving, it would be more difficult.

Are you eluding to attacks of opportunity with the "free" attack thing? Not every mob thinks the same, it sounds like you think casters are just supposed to stand still and unleash all their magic on you while you beat on/pin cushion them. Not really the way any wizard(more intelligent & squishy version of w/e base creature) would act. He would actually try to avoid being hit.

I get some of the wonky movement you speak of though, where a mob is there one second and somewhere else the next, not sure whos side its on but is prolly the reason I havnt taken my ranged characters very far. I think thats what hes working to figure out though.

baylensman
10-12-2007, 08:53 AM
To draw somewhat back to a previous point.
DPS on ranged weapons does not improve enough as levels increase to make it effective beyond about level 8. Acquiring the rare UBER bow helps somewhat.
A single swing with a +2 battle axe, with out burst or other elemental enhancements, by a level 14 fighter type can cause significant damage add elemental effects, burst damage and critical multipliers, some really impressive numbers show on the screen. With sprint boost or haste the number of hits in a typical round adds up quick.
Using any ranged weapons (thrown or bow driven) you just can't even close to the kind of damage. Regardless of cover a targeted mob will almost immediatley zero in on the ranged attacker.
Enough complaints
Possible solutions.
Allow longer range hits with level progression. Allow "Shot from cover" as an enhancement. Increase possible damage per hit with level increases. Drop rate of Uber bows should increase. New damage types , Bow of the Asassian,
like a vorpal on a confirmed critical instant death.

moorewr
10-12-2007, 08:55 AM
Hey, if it's good enough for Fox News reporters, who are you to get on my case? :rolleyes:


Taking the first half of one sentence of a paragraph and saying it's not constructive, when the rest of the paragraph had a couple points in it is quoting out of context.

The middle part is basically talking about AOO, which we know is not implemented here.

The last sentence is certainly stating exactly what a lot of people are talking about here.

Dane_McArdy
10-12-2007, 09:01 AM
Taking the first half of one sentence of a paragraph and saying it's not constructive, when the rest of the paragraph had a couple points in it is quoting out of context.

The middle part is basically talking about AOO, which we know is not implemented here.

The last sentence is certainly stating exactly what a lot of people are talking about here.

I wasn't talking about what wasn't constructive, I was asking what you saw as valid. But the post makes a good example. It's starts off with an insult. Ok, get past that. It talks about AOO. It mentions that their AC should go down when moving. Why? That's not how the game works.

So within his posts are several things that don't apply in DDO or the game in general, an insult, and then a good statement about how the mobs move.

This is what they mean when they say just make your point and leave everything else out, and then we won't have to look for the good parts. Because they just don't have time to do that.

I don't see a way to make AOO like DnD in a live action combat, short of invisilbe rolls with no animation and applying the damage, because otherwise, it seems to me it relies on the player having to swing at the right time.

How do you see them being able to implement free attacks?

Riddikulus
10-12-2007, 09:07 AM
I wasn't talking about what wasn't constructive, I was asking what you saw as valid. But the post makes a good example. It's starts off with an insult. Ok, get past that. It talks about AOO. It mentions that their AC should go down when moving. Why? That's not how the game works.

So within his posts are several things that don't apply in DDO or the game in general, an insult, and then a good statement about how the mobs move.

This is what they mean when they say just make your point and leave everything else out, and then we won't have to look for the good parts. Because they just don't have time to do that.
Oh I agree shortening it would be best, but that's no reason to just quote a bit out of context and say he's not being constructive.

It's stupid because ...

OK one of his becauses isn't exactly right, so we tell him.


I don't see a way to make AOO like DnD in a live action combat, short of invisilbe rolls with no animation and applying the damage, because otherwise, it seems to me it relies on the player having to swing at the right time.

How do you see them being able to implement free attacks?
I don't. The ranged combat system in DDO is very unD&D-like in general so it's really wouldn't be possible to put a rule like that in.

Dane_McArdy
10-12-2007, 09:22 AM
Oh I agree shortening it would be best, but that's no reason to just quote a bit out of context and say he's not being constructive.

It's stupid because ...

OK one of his becauses isn't exactly right, so we tell him.


I don't. The ranged combat system in DDO is very unD&D-like in general so it's really wouldn't be possible to put a rule like that in.

But the whole point is this, he starts off with, this is stupid. Dev's have said that when posts start like that, they don't bother reading past it, no matter how many good points come after stupid.

So yes, saying stupid wasn't constructive, because no matter what he may have to say after that, is lost, because he made it so the devs will most likely not read past that.

So point out that saying it wasn't constructive is a fair assessment of his post, because he basically made it so Turbine isn't going to read past the first statement, and find the good point.

It's that simple. I think it's clear, the dev's read the forums, but the dev's don't have time to respond to everything. If they say, starting out with insults will gaurentee your post doesn't get read, you only have your self to blame.

Codog even said, he doesn't like to reward rants and such with a response, because he feels it only encourages people to continue to post like that.

So basically, the choice is ours on how we comminucate to the devs. If people feel they aren't being heard, perhaps it's not they have to say, it's how they are saying it.

And saying they need to rise above the insults and do their job. I'm sorry, it's not their job to take peoples insults and rudeness.

EinarMal
10-12-2007, 09:33 AM
But the whole point is this, he starts off with, this is stupid. Dev's have said that when posts start like that, they don't bother reading past it, no matter how many good points come after stupid.

So yes, saying stupid wasn't constructive, because no matter what he may have to say after that, is lost, because he made it so the devs will most likely not read past that.

So point out that saying it wasn't constructive is a fair assessment of his post, because he basically made it so Turbine isn't going to read past the first statement, and find the good point.

It's that simple. I think it's clear, the dev's read the forums, but the dev's don't have time to respond to everything. If they say, starting out with insults will gaurentee your post doesn't get read, you only have your self to blame.

Codog even said, he doesn't like to reward rants and such with a response, because he feels it only encourages people to continue to post like that.

So basically, the choice is ours on how we comminucate to the devs. If people feel they aren't being heard, perhaps it's not they have to say, it's how they are saying it.

And saying they need to rise above the insults and do their job. I'm sorry, it's not their job to take peoples insults and rudeness.

Please stop de-railing threads spreading pro turbine propaganda. The point of this thread is to discuss ranged combat and what is wrong with it not whether one post was constructive or not. Anyone who has played around with ranged combat for very long can see the disadvantages it has in the current system compared to melee.

Missing_Minds
10-12-2007, 09:53 AM
Please stop de-railing threads spreading pro turbine propaganda. The point of this thread is to discuss ranged combat and what is wrong with it not whether one post was constructive or not. Anyone who has played around with ranged combat for very long can see the disadvantages it has in the current system compared to melee.

I don't think it is pro or con turbine, but it is derailing the thread a bit.

However, the disadvantages the current system has compared to melee?

If ranged combat would
1) stop loosing the dice rolls.
2) have PCs lead their shots just like NPCs lead their shots. Having PCs not lead their shots when targeting creatures but instead shoot where they were last standing is rather stupid of any competent person. Not all (in fact I'd say maybe 50% at best have the FPS twitch skills necessary to play non mouse look style.)

These two things would balance melee vs ranged. Sure ranged has less of an attack rate, but if you let the melees take agro first, unless you crit that often or the melees suck that bad, you never have to worry about getting attacked by a melee mob. Aka very little chance of death.

Now if this is stuff you had in mind, great! I just have a hard time telling what you think would be balanced.

Boulderun
10-12-2007, 09:53 AM
The kind of developer interaction in this thread is something the game has desperately needed, and I want to support that and thank Codog.

This also seems a good place to bring up the repeater third shot delay issue, since bug reporting it has gone nowhere. Shoot, hit/damage roll, shoot, hit/damage roll, shoot, reload, hit/damage roll. The third shot is not resolved until after the reload animation completes. It happens often with both manual and auto fire, and spacing out the shots manually does not help.

Strakeln
10-12-2007, 10:01 AM
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Go Codog Go!!!!!!

:D :D :D :D

Dane_McArdy
10-12-2007, 10:04 AM
Please stop de-railing threads spreading pro turbine propaganda. The point of this thread is to discuss ranged combat and what is wrong with it not whether one post was constructive or not. Anyone who has played around with ranged combat for very long can see the disadvantages it has in the current system compared to melee.

Well I tried to stick to the thread, by discussing the points in that one post, and asking Ridik what parts he felt was valid and important. If you notice, that was what I asked first and only.

But it kept going back to that point, so I responded to what was addressed to me, much like this post has nothing to do about the issues.

But I'm sorry, talking about how you get your message across is important.

MysticTheurge
10-12-2007, 10:12 AM
But I'm sorry, talking about how you get your message across is important.

So is picking your battles.

Mad_Bombardier
10-12-2007, 10:13 AM
Ranged Combat fix, FTW! I can't wait to see how this fix revitalizes Ranged combat. We've been imagining several other fixes/changes in the Ranger forums for quite some time. But, who knows what will be needed until after we experience Ranged combat as it was meant to be.

Missing_Minds
10-12-2007, 10:42 AM
This may have ended up being an isolated incident, but I don't know.

I was running in sorrowdusk going for kills when an oger decided it wanted me. Meh, oger, I can kill it.

Well... sort of. It was one of the ogers up at the archway near the **** hounds. After killing the troll, I got the attention of the oger (I'm doing ranged attacks bow based) and he comes own the path towards the ruins to kill me.

I'm fine with his. I expect it. He then for some reason ends up behind one of the trees. I can not shoot him at all because he has 100% cover. Again I'm fine with this. From what I can see of it, it is facing perpendicular to the tree. His left shoulder is up against it.

Again I'm fine, it means it can't shoot me either. he'd have to shoot through the tree to shoot me. WRONG. The sucker shoots straight. I am 90% ccw from him and he shoots straight. The arrow goes out 1 foot from him, and hangs an emediate LEFT to hit me!
Since when can arrows make 90 degree turns? I really should have turned on fraps to record this as he was having a bit of a time trying to hit me, but I'm just watching him stand there behind the tree, his arrows making 90 degree turns and trying to hit me. (apparently he rolled low)
It is things like this that I am greatful for a bit of an arrow trail so we can watch shots.

Codog
10-12-2007, 10:54 AM
However I am astounded at the feedback and devotion that we have received from Codog. In my honest opinion this would be an example of TOO MUCH feedback, and what I mean by that is this: on a daily basis issues(some of which might actually matter to me) will be brought up and ignored by the devs that truly needed attention.


HellfireLackey,

You are completely right about this issue being overexposed. I rarely come out of my development cave to talk to people about issues we are addressing or choosing to not address yet. Our management has one of the hardest jobs in the world, prioritizing our tasks. As far as this issue is concerned, this is one of the bugs that keeps getting re-opened. It is the bad penny bug in that it is always turning back up. At the moment, my priorities are to fix critical current issues, work on new features for upcoming modules, and bug fix. I've chosen this bug as the pet bug that I work on at night when my regular work is done.

Sometimes I really feel a need to come out of my cave and reconnect with you. There are lots of dedicated developers who are very silent on the forums. Let's face it! You are an educated, quick witted, and intimidating group of players to converse with. So this particular problem is just one of the issues I'm working on right now. However, I want you all to know that we are still here, we're still passionate, we still play our game, and more or less want a lot of the same things that you do.

It is a privilege to be a developer on this team. You are a very constructive, helpful, and respectful audience to work with.

Best wishes,

Codog

PS. Don't think that every night I'm up till 2:00am working on bugs all the time. I do have a wife and kids to look after. It's great when your 7 year old daughter gets out of bed walks into your office room and says, "What's up with all the kobolds dad? What kind of arrows are those?"

moorewr
10-12-2007, 11:06 AM
I'm now officially a Codog fan boy. See signature.

My four-year-old daughter likes to swim in the harbor, and she tells me to go into the "Cewoooolian hills." then when a mob shows up she hides under my desk and yells "HIT IT!" rather ferociously. There's dutch courage for you. Her other favorite thing is for me to help Scrag, the "nice Kobold."

My wife reports that she (our daughter) has declared she is a Capuchian Monkey this morning and is "gathering nuts to pound on a rock." :)

MysticTheurge
10-12-2007, 11:09 AM
Let's face it! You are an educated, quick witted, and intimidating group of players to converse with.

Word.


It's great when your 7 year old daughter gets out of bed walks into your office room and says, "What's up with all the kobolds dad? What kind of arrows are those?"

Codog's daughter wins the internet.

Qzipoun
10-12-2007, 11:10 AM
It's great when your 7 year old daughter gets out of bed walks into your office room and says, "What's up with all the kobolds dad? What kind of arrows are those?"

Hehehe! :D


However, I want you all to know that we are still here, we're still passionate, we still play our game, and more or less want a lot of the same things that you do.

Sometimes things make me wonder whether that is true or not, other things (like your posts here) are very appreciated and help give me some hope for DDOs future. Thank you.

Cidolfas
10-12-2007, 11:10 AM
PS. Don't think that every night I'm up till 2:00am working on bugs all the time. I do have a wife and kids to look after. It's great when your 7 year old daughter gets out of bed walks into your office room and says, "What's up with all the kobolds dad? What kind of arrows are those?"

So that's what rolling a critical success on parenting looks like!

SneakThief
10-12-2007, 11:17 AM
It's great when your 7 year old daughter gets out of bed walks into your office room and says, "What's up with all the kobolds dad? What kind of arrows are those?"

ROFL!!!!!

Thats too great. Twice in one week man!!! Some one should compile all these into a "Dev quotes to make you laugh (in a good way)!!" thread.

Thanks again man! LOL :D

Riddikulus
10-12-2007, 11:23 AM
I'm now officially a Codog fan boy. See signature.
Heh. I just want to know how you managed to get 8 lines in your sig.

moorewr
10-12-2007, 11:51 AM
Heh. I just want to know how you managed to get 8 lines in your sig.

I used the indent BBtag and mashed the first and last lines of the sig onto the same lines as the first and last toon in the text block in the edit window. Indent does the rest,

Looks like you used code for the same thing, or is that from before the rule change?

Riddikulus
10-12-2007, 11:56 AM
I used the indent BBtag and mashed the first and last lines of the sig onto the same lines as the first and last toon in the text block in the edit window. Indent does the rest,

Looks like you used code for the same thing, or is that from before the rule change?
Clever.

Mine is just that way to be obnoxious. It used to be 4 separate code tags. :D

No, actually the code block makes it much easier to line up the characters in multiple columns.

Talon_Moonshadow
10-12-2007, 12:33 PM
This may have ended up being an isolated incident, but I don't know.

I was running in sorrowdusk going for kills when an oger decided it wanted me. Meh, oger, I can kill it.

Well... sort of. It was one of the ogers up at the archway near the **** hounds. After killing the troll, I got the attention of the oger (I'm doing ranged attacks bow based) and he comes own the path towards the ruins to kill me.

I'm fine with his. I expect it. He then for some reason ends up behind one of the trees. I can not shoot him at all because he has 100% cover. Again I'm fine with this. From what I can see of it, it is facing perpendicular to the tree. His left shoulder is up against it.

Again I'm fine, it means it can't shoot me either. he'd have to shoot through the tree to shoot me. WRONG. The sucker shoots straight. I am 90% ccw from him and he shoots straight. The arrow goes out 1 foot from him, and hangs an emediate LEFT to hit me!
Since when can arrows make 90 degree turns? I really should have turned on fraps to record this as he was having a bit of a time trying to hit me, but I'm just watching him stand there behind the tree, his arrows making 90 degree turns and trying to hit me. (apparently he rolled low)
It is things like this that I am greatful for a bit of an arrow trail so we can watch shots.

Uhmm....our arrows can do this too. Or rather we can shoot around corners in this game, and I do it all of the time. I have to use auto-attack, but once you have your target locked you can point your bow about somewhere between 45 and 90 degrees from your target and be able to shoot at him without being hit by him in return.
it is not an exact science....I usually have to shoot in the wall a few times and ease closer and closer to the corner to get the right angel (without being hit first anyway).
Works fabulous for non-moving oponents.....especailly most of the beholders in VON3....including the named one near the end.

I love ranging this guy to death while the rest of the party dies over and over again.......can even be done by a Wiz with a returning throwing weapon. Some area of effect spells can still target you, but it is great defense against ranged and ray like attacks.

Talon_Moonshadow
10-12-2007, 12:39 PM
HellfireLackey,

You are completely right about this issue being overexposed. I rarely come out of my development cave to talk to people about issues we are addressing or choosing to not address yet. Our management has one of the hardest jobs in the world, prioritizing our tasks. As far as this issue is concerned, this is one of the bugs that keeps getting re-opened. It is the bad penny bug in that it is always turning back up. At the moment, my priorities are to fix critical current issues, work on new features for upcoming modules, and bug fix. I've chosen this bug as the pet bug that I work on at night when my regular work is done.

Sometimes I really feel a need to come out of my cave and reconnect with you. There are lots of dedicated developers who are very silent on the forums. Let's face it! You are an educated, quick witted, and intimidating group of players to converse with. So this particular problem is just one of the issues I'm working on right now. However, I want you all to know that we are still here, we're still passionate, we still play our game, and more or less want a lot of the same things that you do.

It is a privilege to be a developer on this team. You are a very constructive, helpful, and respectful audience to work with.

Best wishes,

Codog

PS. Don't think that every night I'm up till 2:00am working on bugs all the time. I do have a wife and kids to look after. It's great when your 7 year old daughter gets out of bed walks into your office room and says, "What's up with all the kobolds dad? What kind of arrows are those?"

Thank you so much for all of your efforts. This game is the most fun thing I do in my life right now, and I hope you guys can keep it going for a very very long time.

I really admire anyone who's daughter knows what a Kobold is. :)

Talon_Moonshadow
10-12-2007, 12:43 PM
I'm now officially a Codog fan boy. See signature.

My four-year-old daughter likes to swim in the harbor, and she tells me to go into the "Cewoooolian hills." then when a mob shows up she hides under my desk and yells "HIT IT!" rather ferociously. There's dutch courage for you. Her other favorite thing is for me to help Scrag, the "nice Kobold."

My wife reports that she (our daughter) has declared she is a Capuchian Monkey this morning and is "gathering nuts to pound on a rock." :)

Wow, my kids like to swim in the harbor too. lol.
Back in '94 I got my first PC and played Doom when my daughter was about 1 1/2 years old. She sat on my lap and held onto the joystick while I used the keyboard to run around. Whenever I said "fire" she would pull the trigger on the joystick......good times.

My favorite was the look on her face when I would open a door and an army of demons would come screaming out the door to attack me. :)
her eyes got soo big and her finger was pulling that trigger so fast, as I ran backwards....... :)
Probably scarred her for life...poor girl

Missing_Minds
10-12-2007, 12:51 PM
I'm the type of player that will straff left and right to avoid the arrows. The times I notice that that the arrows wis by my head (aka never actually touch my character), yet I'm hit by them seems to be when they are almost at the extreme distance for the NPC to be drawn on my screen.

Now I've got my settings cranked as I'm fortunate enough to have a nice PC.

But I've seen that strafing left and right at the high distances for some reason does not work as well as it does in mid range distances.

Of course it just now dawns on me what this probably is. *sighs* ye old standard anti cheat positioning code that throws the player back in the target zone for being hit. Same reason why when giants swing at you and you are running away, why you are ALWAYS are thrown back towards them instead of further away which is where you should have been going in the first place.

In this case of course you wouldn't notice anything wrong because there is nothing wrong with the code. *sighs* man I hate unfair playing. I'll just have to deal with it.

And Codog, I do appreciate all the effort you are putting into this, and the quotes from your daughter were absolutely adorable. :)

Ustice
10-12-2007, 01:38 PM
HellfireLackey,

You are completely right about this issue being overexposed. I rarely come out of my development cave to talk to people about issues we are addressing or choosing to not address yet.

Personally, I think that this sot of instant feed-back is awesome. As a software developer myself, I love hearing about what you are working on, and the specifics of what you are up against and your methods. I would actually like to see something like this in a developers blog (separate from marketing and community relations, no offense meant toward the Big Q and team) that is all about what you are working on, challenges that you are facing, and how you work to over-come them. Its an engaging story, especially to us geeks. If some people are not interested, well they just don't have to subscribe to the RSS feed.

Obviously talking with us should be secondary to your primary task, but I also think that your posts and comments are useful to the community, and the feedback that you receive because of it helps you deliver a better product. It really gives us a closer connection to the product and its team that works so hard to develop it, and I hope that you continue to keep us informed. I always look forward to hearing what you have to say.

Thanks Codog!

BurnerD
10-12-2007, 02:56 PM
Obviously you don't have the time to communicate like this all the time, but I would like to add my voice to those who have been impressed with your effort Codog. For a dev to handle an issue like this, if even occasionally, goes a long way in building community with the players.

Thanks for your hard work on late night effort :)

Osharan_Tregarth
10-12-2007, 03:16 PM
/snip
One thing that still astounds me is the variety of play styles people employ. One of the more interesting aspects is how people choose to move in the game. Some weave from side to side... some circumstrafe the targets.. some run forward and backward. Some stand still.

You can also get some interesting results if you just stand in one spot while they are shooting straight at you, and quickly tap the left-right keys in sequence. Um.. Not sure how old you are, but the old arcade track and field game comes to mind.

I'll talk a bit with our monster designer about this in the morning. Stationary monsters don't get phantoms nearly so often unless it is a content placement issue or the server is hitching really bad. So the good news is that we can try to make monsters select better attacks while moving that don't duck and weave so much and get hidden by client interpolation.

I haven't tested it recently, but it used to be that monster animations would also have this effect. Meaning, if the Giant is bending over to pick up rocks out of the ground to throw at you, you would also get the phantom miss effect.(no roll, no effect, etc). There were some other different monster types whose animations that would also have this effect, but I don't recall right now which ones they were.
/snip
Best wishes out there,

Codog

Thanks for the efforts Codog. Greatly appreciated.

Borror0
10-12-2007, 07:45 PM
While we have you here...

You're talking about animation not representing what the kobolds do.

Is the speed difference between Greataxe and Greatsword only a mstter of graphic or is it really a difference?

Thanks for answering.:)

Omni
10-13-2007, 09:38 AM
Codog shows what I would like to see more from devs. Communication with community.

Codog
10-13-2007, 11:35 AM
While we have you here...

You're talking about animation not representing what the kobolds do.

Is the speed difference between Greataxe and Greatsword only a mstter of graphic or is it really a difference?

Thanks for answering.:)

Yes. There are some speed differences between the two. Basicallly different weapon styles will have some minor variants in their animation times. Ideally, I would have wanted these to be super uniform (which we did try at one point). However, the aesthetics of having a one handed dagger swinging at the same speed as a huge honking axe made things look pretty silly. We do some fine tuning of the speed at which these animations play using the base attack bonus table as well. The different melee weapon styles in the game:

One handed
One handed ( with shield )
Two handed ( axe )
Two handed ( greatsword, great club )
Two handed ( staff )
Dual wielding
Unarmed

These different styles will have unique attack times for the moving1, moving2, and standing attacks 1-5. Between the races, there is absolute consistency between the styles. Axe for halflings is the same speed as axe for warforged, etc. (heh... a halfling greataxe is much smaller... in Eberron weapons magically change size for the wielder *cough* )

Have a good weekend,

Codog

iamsamoth0
10-13-2007, 12:02 PM
Yes. There are some speed differences between the two. Basicallly different weapon styles will have some minor variants in their animation times. Ideally, I would have wanted these to be super uniform (which we did try at one point). However, the aesthetics of having a one handed dagger swinging at the same speed as a huge honking axe made things look pretty silly. We do some fine tuning of the speed at which these animations play using the base attack bonus table as well. The different melee weapon styles in the game:

One handed
One handed ( with shield )
Two handed ( axe )
Two handed ( greatsword, great club )
Two handed ( staff )
Dual wielding
Unarmed

These different styles will have unique attack times for the moving1, moving2, and standing attacks 1-5. Between the races, there is absolute consistency between the styles. Axe for halflings is the same speed as axe for warforged, etc. (heh... a halfling greataxe is much smaller... in Eberron weapons magically change size for the wielder *cough* )

Have a good weekend,

Codog

It's reassuring to see that there remains those who are committed to the continuance of DDO. To see the inside of Turbine is refreshing.
Now if I could just get dev's to respond in my suggestion thread.

P.S.
I wouldn't mind seeing a table of weapon speeds, that are relavent(sp?) to the game.

Borror0
10-13-2007, 12:54 PM
Yes. There are some speed differences between the two. Basicallly different weapon styles will have some minor variants in their animation times. Ideally, I would have wanted these to be super uniform (which we did try at one point). However, the aesthetics of having a one handed dagger swinging at the same speed as a huge honking axe made things look pretty silly. We do some fine tuning of the speed at which these animations play using the base attack bonus table as well. The different melee weapon styles in the game:

One handed
One handed ( with shield )
Two handed ( axe )
Two handed ( greatsword, great club )
Two handed ( staff )
Dual wielding
Unarmed

These different styles will have unique attack times for the moving1, moving2, and standing attacks 1-5. Between the races, there is absolute consistency between the styles. Axe for halflings is the same speed as axe for warforged, etc. (heh... a halfling greataxe is much smaller... in Eberron weapons magically change size for the wielder *cough* )

Have a good weekend,

Codog

Wow! I got an answer. Cupcake, give him a lifetime suplly please.

Codog, thanks a lot. So much communication would be needed sometimes...:)

Thanks again.

Shade
10-13-2007, 03:28 PM
..... and standing attacks 1-5.

But there's only 4 standing attack animations. :cool:

So we are getting our 5th attack anim for mod6 :D

Mad_Bombardier
10-13-2007, 03:29 PM
But there's only 4 standing attack animations. :cool:

So we are getting our 5th attack anim for mod6 :DNice catch, Shade! And poo. That means TWF will be behind in attacks, still! :mad: TWF can't catch a break. :(

VonBek
10-13-2007, 03:37 PM
a huge honking axe

Shhh -- Kargon will now want a +5 Ax of Honkaming... :rolleyes:

binnsr
10-13-2007, 03:59 PM
But there's only 4 standing attack animations. :cool:

So we are getting our 5th attack anim for mod6 :D

BAB0 has a different attack animation than BAB1 doesn't it?

Mad_Bombardier
10-13-2007, 04:00 PM
BAB0 has a different attack animation than BAB1 doesn't it?BAB0 is Attack1
BAB1 is Attack2
BAB5 is Attack3
BAB10 is Attack4
(BAB15 is Attack5)

Borror0
10-13-2007, 04:12 PM
Nice catch, Shade! And poo. That means TWF will be behind in attacks, still! :mad: TWF can't catch a break. :(

No. They hate rangers. :rolleyes:

Borror0
10-13-2007, 08:14 PM
Codog... one more question again...

Sometimes, I cast a nuking spell (ie Fireball), I loose the SP for the spell, I see the fireball... but not damage even if hit the mob straigth in the face.

Most of the time, I'm moving backward (if that can help).

Is that the same reason as ranged combat not registering?

(I know, I'm abusing. But it's great to know someone's listenning.:))

Kargon
10-13-2007, 10:14 PM
The different melee weapon styles in the game:

One handed
One handed ( with shield )
Two handed ( axe )
Two handed ( greatsword, great club )
Two handed ( staff )
Dual wielding
Unarmed


Since Falcion are SOOOOO specimial that not even get includamed in list as havaming attack animamitimion, that mean kargon can swing as fast as can click? no wondermer kargon so powermaful!

(Yes, Kargon pretty sure falcimion go with greatmasword, but then kargon assume thing like 'raged barbarian can drink lesser restore pots whenevamer want!' and thing go downhill from there :eek: )

Kargon
10-13-2007, 10:15 PM
Shhh -- Kargon will now want a +5 Ax of Honkaming... :rolleyes:

No, but kargon would give lots for new Titan raid loot Maul name 'Titan Severmered Hammermer Arm' so kargon can run around and hit things as hard as silly Titan!

Borror0
10-13-2007, 10:30 PM
(Yes, Kargon pretty sure falcimion go with greatmasword, but then kargon assume thing like 'raged barbarian can drink lesser restore pots whenevamer want!' and thing go downhill from there :eek: )

Falchion, as I've been told --> Slowest

GAULSTON
10-14-2007, 01:11 AM
My ranger is a human male heavy repeatin crossbow user. I share the same frustrations as others who are experiencing the bugged ranged combat system. Not sure if the required information is at all needed though, since nearly the entire ranged combat community is having the same problems. Don't think these bugs pertain to a particular race, gender, class, feats taken, etc.

One of the feats I took was rapid reload. Not sure which ranged feats work with which weapons. I have heard speculations and timed trials from other players that they do not speed up shot or reload times for heavy repeaters. I tried researchin the issue via online support. I did not find the answer I was lookin for in the knowledge base, so I requested some1 respond to my question: Does the Rapid Reload feat apply to repeating crossbows, even tho the description says: You reload a crossbow faster than normal. It provides no benefit to reload rates of bows or thrown weapons. Prerequisite: Simple Weapon Proficiency: Light Crossbow:confused: I had recieved an E-Mail from some1 at turbine, some time ago, who responded saying that rapid reload did apply to repeaters. Oh how I wish I would not have deleted that E-Mail. The knowledge base ID# = 202.

This is only part of the problem, not only is the knowledge base vague, but also the ranged combat feat descriptions in the DDO compendium, and the online game manual. I took rapid reload early on, thinkin it would help, but not sure at all. It would be tremendously helpful if the game manual, knowledge base, and compendium were updated on a regular basis.

Secondly, please don't leave us in the dark. We want to be continually reminded that this bug is getting elevated attention. Weekly development activities are a great place to let us know whats happenin with ranged combat. Even if it says: Ranged Combat: still working out the bugs, keep yer pants on. I would be happy with that, it's better than silence.
It's nice to know that you are aware of the bug, just please keep us posted.

Here are some more threads on the issue that I found:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=122142
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124035
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=118607
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=122946
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=119021
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116058

Codog, keep up the good work and be patient with our frustrated fumes. An update from time to time will subdue the the flames. It's just that we've been playin a very long time with this known bug, and seen many new improvements added to the game which took precedence over fixing this bug. We are eagerly awaitin yer response, or somethin in the weekly dev activities.

Codog
10-14-2007, 01:18 PM
One of the feats I took was rapid reload. Not sure which ranged feats work with which weapons.



As currently implemented:

Rapid shot -- Bow, Thrown, Crossbow, Repeating Crossbow
Rapid reload -- Crossbow

This being said, I thought the repeater should benefit from rapid reload also. I spent a bit of time debugging whether or not there is a bug in our bug tracker (which there wasn't). I spent a bit of time looking through our design docs to see if there was an intentional omission (which there wasn't). I looked through the code pathways to see if it was an outright bug (which there wasn't). However, our content tables don't have repeating crossbow speed affected by rapid reload. I will be checking with our lead system designer to see if this was an intentional omission. I will keep you updated.

The repeating crossbow... ah yes... our famous repeating bug. If we were gathered around a campfire, I would tell you such a tale about this *cough* wonderful set of bugs. There are some things you should know though related to the repeater. So the major problem that is happening with this is that the client gets out of synchronization with the server. Here is a brief table showing you what happens when it is working brilliantly:

Client / Server
Attack 1 / Attack 1 ( Autoattack guesses at time x next shot )Attack 2 / Attack 2 ( Autoattack guesses at time x next shot )
Attack 3 / Attack 3 ( Autoattack guesses at time x + y next shot )
Reload / Reload
Attack 1 / Attack 1 ( Autoattack guesses at time x next shot )Attack 2 / Attack 2 ( Autoattack guesses at time x next shot )
Attack 3 / Attack 3 ( Autoattack guesses at time x + y next shot )
Reload / Reload

x = time for the shot animation
y = time for the reload animation

In the case where it gets off synch:

Client / Server
Attack 1 / Attack 1 ( Autoattack guesses at time x next shot )Attack 2 fails validation with cooldown timer / Attack 2 ( Autoattack guesses at time z next shot )
Attack 2 again / Attack 3 ( Autoattack guesses at time x for next shot )
Attack 3 missing shot / Reload in progress (Autoattacked guesses time x + y )
Attack 1 missing shot / Reload is still finishing
Attack 2 / Attack 1 ( Autoattack guesses at time x for next shot )
Attack 3 / Attack 2 ( (Autoattacked guesses time x + y )

... etc ... etc

The server always fires in the correct order when the client tells it to fire. Because the round trip from the client to the server and back to client exceeds the amount of time it takes to fire a shot, we have no way of verifying that the client and server agree until after it has already happened. I've put in a few different measures to try to resynchronize when we detect this problem. However, it's not perfect yet. If you don't use autoattack and manually fire, you'll notice you'll get clusters of 3 damage numbers and a delay for reload regardless of what you client is doing at the time. So spamming the attack button will yield you repeating crossbow performance with some visual confusion. At least you'll be getting your attacks in.

Another thing to note, we do have a seperate ranged "combat style" for repeating crossbows with a seperate BAB progression from normal crossbows. Creating entities in our game world and synchronizing them over the network has a lot of overhead associated with them. As quickly as we allow you to shoot with a repeater if we followed the same progression, it will cause worse synchronization issues and starts to impede server performance.

This is one of the reasons (one of many reasons) we are avoiding having rate of fire paralleling melee combat with the current implementation. Melee combat doesn't create new entities in the game world on the server. (weapon streaks and fx are client side only)

Regards,

Codog

Borror0
10-14-2007, 01:22 PM
This is one of the reasons (one of many reasons) we are avoiding having rate of fire paralleling melee combat with the current implementation. Melee combat doesn't create new entities in the game world on the server. (weapon streaks and fx are client side only)

You made many sad & happy rangers.

At least noe they know why their beloved range is so slow.:eek:

Thanks again Codog. Update us about the Repeater/feat things... I'll update the wiki atm!

EDIT: Do Rapid reload and Rapid shot stack for crossbows? If not, just remove it! :D

EDIT2: oh, oh... what about quickdraw and Thrown? Don't blame me for asking me questions but the game for nbot giving enough information! :p
Anyway, I'd never trust in-game information. It's false too often for me. *cough* Magic missle dealing 1d4+1 my...:rolleyes:*cough* :D

EDIT3: Wiki says that it has no effect on Crossbows and Thrown weapons? Please tell us who is wrong? They didn't post their results on the wiki but on the forums, noobs. The forums got nuked, so... (You must be starting to hate me. Sorry.

Codog
10-14-2007, 04:28 PM
Do Rapid reload and Rapid shot stack for crossbows? If not, just remove it! :D

oh, oh... what about quickdraw and Thrown? Don't blame me for asking me questions but the game for nbot giving enough information! :p
The forums got nuked, so... (You must be starting to hate me. Sorry.)

Rapid shot and rapid reload do stack.
Rapid shot and quickdraw stack as well.

And no... I'm not even beginning to hate anybody here. I hate bugs in the game, not the fine residents of Stormreach. Although that Lord Goodblade character, I don't trust that guy. He has shifty, small hands, and smells like enigmatic stew.

It is planned that ranged combat speed will increase with BAB all the way through level 20. However, you won't be seeing increases like 2X and 3X the current speed. (just to set some expectations)

Best wishes,

Codog

Borror0
10-14-2007, 04:44 PM
Rapid shot and rapid reload do stack.
Rapid shot and quickdraw stack as well.

Thanks a lot, clarification from a dev is needed for a few feats. Glad to know abvout these two.

Maybe send a message to whoever it may concern that it should be in the feat's description.

You guys are tying to make this game more newbie friendly, don't you? (Not directed at Codog)
If any dev is interested in answering/reading loads and loads of question, I've got a HUMONGEOUS list of unverified stuff here (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Unverified&limit=500&from=0) and here (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:PnP&limit=500&from=0).

And about twice these in my mind...:rolleyes: Let's just say about 80% of the spells in the game? :P

There is lots of information that is not even available to me without intensive testing.
So imagine a newbie!:eek:

Again, not directed at Codog. Codog, you are a model of dedication, what you're doing right now, that ammount of communication, is what we are all after. Thanks a lot.

If you're about to ask for a raise, I think a few of us would back you up. :)
We like to feel we are listened to. :P


And no... I'm not even beginning to hate anybody here. I hate bugs in the game, not the fine residents of Stormreach. Although that Lord Goodblade character, I don't trust that guy. He has shifty, small hands, and smells like enigmatic stew.

Ok, just meant that I'm asking you loads of questions.
Don't mean to take all your time.


It is planned that ranged combat speed will increase with BAB all the way through level 20. However, you won't be seeing increases like 2X and 3X the current speed. (just to set some expectations)

Glad to hear that. :)

Thanks a lot Codog.

Knightrose
10-14-2007, 05:31 PM
Its nice to have these answers to feats that confused me after playing the game for 2 years now.

Why can't this important information be implemented with the tooltips?

It's oddly entertaining to know somethings are still misunderstood or not understood in the game world. But overall it seems petty to keep information from the players (if it's intentional).

You guys seem to have your eye on things. Please keep updating the tooltips because a lot of **** still confuses even me.

NJDaniels
10-14-2007, 06:07 PM
I just got my Heavy Repeater character the Black Dragon Leather Armour for the 10% Ranged Alacrity. Does this effect Repeaters at all or did I just waste 25 scales?

lasra
10-14-2007, 06:08 PM
As currently implemented:

This is one of the reasons (one of many reasons) we are avoiding having rate of fire paralleling melee combat with the current implementation. Melee combat doesn't create new entities in the game world on the server. (weapon streaks and fx are client side only)

Regards,

Codog

I admit to having "skipped to the end" of this post, but here is my question:

MOB archers rate of fire is much faster than ours, especially MOB elven archers, especially evident when the CR rating is below level 14. If I stand at one end of a room and shoot at an archer who is shooting back at me, his rate of fire is somewhere around 1.5 to 1.75 to 1... not quite twice as fast, but it is very obvious. (For a game example, try the archers in VON3 on the ledge before the first shrine, or the archers in Bounty Hunter).

Is your quote saying that the MOB archers can fire faster, because they are server side, and therefore not restrained by the server/client communication? I would think that each arrow they fire still creates the new entity in the game world, just as ours do, but why the much faster fire rate for them at a CR lower than ours? (Bounty hunter archers are between 5-10 as I recall)

Codog
10-14-2007, 08:28 PM
I admit to having "skipped to the end" of this post, but here is my question:

MOB archers rate of fire is much faster than ours, especially MOB elven archers, especially evident when the CR rating is below level 14. If I stand at one end of a room and shoot at an archer who is shooting back at me, his rate of fire is somewhere around 1.5 to 1.75 to 1... not quite twice as fast, but it is very obvious. (For a game example, try the archers in VON3 on the ledge before the first shrine, or the archers in Bounty Hunter).

Is your quote saying that the MOB archers can fire faster, because they are server side, and therefore not restrained by the server/client communication? I would think that each arrow they fire still creates the new entity in the game world, just as ours do, but why the much faster fire rate for them at a CR lower than ours? (Bounty hunter archers are between 5-10 as I recall)

Well, having a dozen or more monsters shooting projectiles at a given time at this rate is a little different than having hundreds of players in the game shooting at this rate. I have to admit hearing those numbers from you makes me a bit concerned. And no, it's not that much different having a monster fire it and having a player fire it. It still has physics and scripts running on it, and it still is propagated to players through the network.

Great observation,

Codog

Codog
10-14-2007, 08:38 PM
I just got my Heavy Repeater character the Black Dragon Leather Armour for the 10% Ranged Alacrity. Does this effect Repeaters at all or did I just waste 25 scales?

This affects repeaters. No worries friend.

Codog

NJDaniels
10-14-2007, 09:12 PM
This affects repeaters. No worries friend.

Codog

Oh thank goodness, and thank you for the quick (weekend) response!

Codog
10-14-2007, 09:14 PM
If any dev is interested in answering/reading loads and loads of question, I've got a HUMONGEOUS list of unverified stuff here (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Unverified&limit=500&from=0) and here (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:PnP&limit=500&from=0).


Codog passes out. :eek:

MysticTheurge
10-14-2007, 10:00 PM
Well, having a dozen or more monsters shooting projectiles at a given time at this rate is a little different than having hundreds of players in the game shooting at this rate.

Codog, I'm a little baffled by this response. Both in a given instance and throughout the game as a whole it seems like there are probably far more monsters shooting projectiles than players shooting projectiles at any given time. I mean, I try to figure out how it could be any other way, but I just can't. There are, overall, more monsters than players at any given time. Plus, monsters are far more likely than players to actually be using ranged weapons.

I mean, heck, just having one group running Delera's means there's probably more NPC archers in that instance than there are PC archers throughout the game. ;)

But seriously... I guess I'm just not understanding this. Am I missing something here?

Borror0
10-14-2007, 10:35 PM
Codog passes out. :eek:

hehe... oops?:o

Guys...? I think I messed up and you're not going to like it...:rolleyes:

===============================================

Honestly, I'm going to send a few questions to Eladrin soon. See what I'll get as an answer.

Just trying to figure out a few things by muself, but after that I'm done. There are things we know nothnig at alll... like what the heall does the Two-handed fighting feats do!??! :confused:

EDIT: Eladrin, if you think it's waste of time and you're reading this, just tell me. You'll do me some sort of favor by at least saving me the effort.:(

MrCow
10-14-2007, 10:50 PM
I mean, heck, just having one group running Delera's means there's probably more NPC archers in that instance than there are PC archers throughout the game.

I agree that you can have a lot of NPC archers in an instance firing to the point of absurity for a server. The second part of Delera's tomb was a classic example of how to make the DDO servers wracked with pain. Any group that decided to run by the skeleton archers rather than killing them would cause the instance to lag to the point where everything was 5-10 seconds apart from what was really happening. With the more recent AI changes this has been remedied though, but is still a good history lesson that projectiles cause issues in DDO. :p

TEK
10-15-2007, 01:35 AM
Codog, I'm a little baffled by this response. Both in a given instance and throughout the game as a whole it seems like there are probably far more monsters shooting projectiles than players shooting projectiles at any given time. I mean, I try to figure out how it could be any other way, but I just can't. There are, overall, more monsters than players at any given time. Plus, monsters are far more likely than players to actually be using ranged weapons.

I mean, heck, just having one group running Delera's means there's probably more NPC archers in that instance than there are PC archers throughout the game. ;)

But seriously... I guess I'm just not understanding this. Am I missing something here?

there might be more monsters but that doesnt necessarily mean they're more archers i mean most if not all of the harbor quests involves kobolds throwing alchemical fire, while being backed by melee and caster kobolds. In fact, a large portion of the low to mid level mobs are mostly made up of melee and caster with very little ranged.

and whats funny is that alot of casters and archers would range u with arrows and spells until they're within melee range and then try to physically swing at you lol (you gotta love the universal AI).

so no i cant really agree with you on the more monster thing.

Codog
10-15-2007, 03:03 AM
Codog, I'm a little baffled by this response. Both in a given instance and throughout the game as a whole it seems like there are probably far more monsters shooting projectiles than players shooting projectiles at any given time. I mean, I try to figure out how it could be any other way, but I just can't. There are, overall, more monsters than players at any given time. Plus, monsters are far more likely than players to actually be using ranged weapons.

I mean, heck, just having one group running Delera's means there's probably more NPC archers in that instance than there are PC archers throughout the game.

But seriously... I guess I'm just not understanding this. Am I missing something here?

If performance becomes a serious issue with entity creation, we can nerf a million monsters and they won't complain and not show up for the game the next evening because they are angry. ;)

Heh. Anyway, a huge majority of our monsters are melee monsters in the game. The designated archer monsters are turreted in place most of the time so that we can prevent greater density of archers from being in one place at one time. I know... there are contrary examples in our game and some rooms that are just plain ridiculously filled with archers (and therefore perform badly).

One consideration relates to monsters having more computational complexity related to their "awareness monitors". They have to consider every entity entering their monitor for filtration. Players shooting missiles at monsters is more expensive than the converse. We also can't ignore many shot... that feat turns one archer into 3 from a server perspective at higher levels. Monster projectiles have a lot of information baked into them and creating them is a little less complex. So I guess I should amend my earlier statement that more or less it is the same. Right now entity creation is in the top ten of performance eaters. However, AI scripts are much higher at the moment and are a bigger worry.

An important systems design reason can be summarized as we're only at level 14 right now. There is a long way to go yet and we do want ROF and DPS to increased for ranged combat as we push up level limits. It would be really irresponsible of us to push up the ROF now to a point where performance IS the only limiting factor because we have many more levels to go yet.

An inconvenient truth is there are content reasons for ranged combat not keeping pace with melee. When our rate of fire was higher and ranged DPS was roughly 65% of melee DPS during a few weeks during beta, almost every fight was a ranged fight. Players would find a great perch where monsters couldn't hammer on them directly and they would lead their victim there and plink away at them until they were dead (which is much more effective at that ROF). Most of our monsters are not primary ranged combat monsters. Most of the melee fighters resort to it when they can't find a path to you. When ranged combat is a lot more effective, everybody starts perching and even the melee monsters become missile attackers.

Let's pretend for a moment that a combat encounter of 12 melee bad guys and 6 archer bad guys vs 6 players erupted. Now currently, we're probably talking about 7 or 8 total missile combatants. With an elevated ROF on missile fire in my desperately ridiculous worst case scenario, you're talking about 24 missile combatants.

All that being said, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't revisit melee vs missile balance (especially for classes and players that are optimizing for ranged attacks). For the hardcore twitch player, it seems like a fair balance as we have it. For the more casual gamer, the numbers feel unacceptable. This deviation within our player base is very hard for our systems designers to reconcile.

I hope this helps answer your question.

Best regards,

Codog

Lillitheris
10-15-2007, 05:30 AM
This discussion in itself isn't very important to me, but I must tip my hat to Codog. Now THAT is 'interacting with the community' :)

Cordelia
10-15-2007, 06:28 AM
This discussion in itself isn't very important to me, but I must tip my hat to Codog. Now THAT is 'interacting with the community' :)

Agreed. Thanks so much Codog, your candor, accessibility and informative posts do Turbine proud.

Cord

Spookydodger
10-15-2007, 06:39 AM
Rapid shot and rapid reload do stack.
Rapid shot and quickdraw stack as well.

Codog

This doesn't quite clarifying anything to me, though, unfortunately.

Rapid shot and Rapid reload do stack, but as far as I have seen thus far, they don't affect the same equipment.

Rapid shot and quickdraw stacking would only mean anything, as far as I understand their uses, in thrown weapons.

Is it possible for someone to enlighten me as to what the combined effect of these feats would be?

EinarMal
10-15-2007, 06:58 AM
An inconvenient truth is there are content reasons for ranged combat not keeping pace with melee. When our rate of fire was higher and ranged DPS was roughly 65% of melee DPS during a few weeks during beta, almost every fight was a ranged fight. Players would find a great perch where monsters couldn't hammer on them directly and they would lead their victim there and plink away at them until they were dead (which is much more effective at that ROF). Most of our monsters are not primary ranged combat monsters. Most of the melee fighters resort to it when they can't find a path to you. When ranged combat is a lot more effective, everybody starts perching and even the melee monsters become missile attackers.


Players may have played that way during beta but that is not how most groups play now. With much better equipment and builds most parties would not bother with the strategy you outlined above if the DPS is <50% as it is now or 65% that you state. The game has changed greatly since BETA perhaps it is time to revisit things.

You could do the same strategy today, so it just takes 10 seconds longer now. To me that is a silly arguement that really doesn't make a lot of sense. A raging 46 strength barbarian is not going to take out a bow, and neither are a lot of other melee built characters that can already wreck through mobs.

What uping damage would do though is somewhat un-gimp all the players that insist on using a bow 24/7 and contributing very little to parties outside of special effects like curse or paralyze.

You also talk about FPS and twitch players with a bow, well just an FYI that is considered by most groups to be THE most annoying party memeber you can have. Having someone kiting mobs around take 2-3 times longer to kill one mob while the rest of the party wrecks the other 9 in 2 seconds. There are only a handful of cases where that kind of FPS bow fighting really shines. You are designing the entire ranged combat system to take into account a player that most groups don't like in their group anyway.

MysticTheurge
10-15-2007, 07:16 AM
If performance becomes a serious issue with entity creation, we can nerf a million monsters and they won't complain and not show up for the game the next evening because they are angry. ;)

That, I suppose, is a good point. :D


You could do the same strategy today, so it just takes 10 seconds longer now.

More accurately, when you do the same strategy today it involves firewalls, and perhaps a blade barrier or two. Any ranged fighting is just a little bit of fluff on top of that excessive amount of DPS.

Missing_Minds
10-15-2007, 07:17 AM
One consideration relates to monsters having more computational complexity related to their "awareness monitors". They have to consider every entity entering their monitor for filtration.

This is something that still confuses the heck out of me. Their monitor just, well, frankly, seem to be very stupid.

Why is it a melee can run up and smack something and run away before the NPC ever becomes active, while a caster, not even in the same room as spawn, was never in the room, and the spawns only NOW pop up are immediately agroed on them instead of any body/thing that was in the room when they popped up. The NPCs in the later instance do not even have line of sight to the casters, I'd say they are 45 feet away minimum.

I don't expect any answer on this one, Codog, (as i think this would be more of Eladrin's area) it is just one of those things in the game that bugs me by how it is working. I really do appreciate all of the feedback you have been giving us also.

EinarMal
10-15-2007, 07:22 AM
More accurately, when you do the same strategy today it involves firewalls, and perhaps a blade barrier or two. Any ranged fighting is just a little bit of fluff on top of that excessive amount of DPS.

Heh yeah when I solo with my melee characters at low levels I will range things like this, but yeah otherwise casters are of course the only valid DPS ranged characters in the game. If you use a bow you have to be content to be <50% damage of melee so you don't unbalance the game :rolleyes:

If you cannot get ROF up higher due to game engine issues, then you should consider adding feats that further increase the critical range or some super awesome bows to the game (way better than the new bow I saw for the current new MOD). Otherwise ranged combat will remain a situtional style, that for most cases is not worth investing in if you want to min/max your character. When level 14 Rangers with most bow feats in the game are to the point where they barely use a bow you might think something isn't quite right.

Hendrik
10-15-2007, 07:52 AM
This discussion in itself isn't very important to me, but I must tip my hat to Codog. Now THAT is 'interacting with the community' :)

I agree.

Thank you Codog for the posts!

:D

Dane_McArdy
10-15-2007, 09:21 AM
This discussion in itself isn't very important to me, but I must tip my hat to Codog. Now THAT is 'interacting with the community' :)

But everyone should remember, he's doing this on his own time, it seems, as well as working on the issue on his own time.

VonBek
10-15-2007, 09:28 AM
But everyone should remember, he's doing this on his own time, it seems, as well as working on the issue on his own time.

Just tell me where to send the beer/coffee/apple juice/mineral water etc....

Codog
10-15-2007, 09:56 AM
Players may have played that way during beta but that is not how most groups play now. With much better equipment and builds most parties would not bother with the strategy you outlined above if the DPS is <50% as it is now or 65% that you state. The game has changed greatly since BETA perhaps it is time to revisit things.

You could do the same strategy today, so it just takes 10 seconds longer now. To me that is a silly arguement that really doesn't make a lot of sense. A raging 46 strength barbarian is not going to take out a bow, and neither are a lot of other melee built characters that can already wreck through mobs.

What uping damage would do though is somewhat un-gimp all the players that insist on using a bow 24/7 and contributing very little to parties outside of special effects like curse or paralyze.

You also talk about FPS and twitch players with a bow, well just an FYI that is considered by most groups to be THE most annoying party memeber you can have. Having someone kiting mobs around take 2-3 times longer to kill one mob while the rest of the party wrecks the other 9 in 2 seconds. There are only a handful of cases where that kind of FPS bow fighting really shines. You are designing the entire ranged combat system to take into account a player that most groups don't like in their group anyway.

Points well taken. The game has changed a lot since beta indeed! The net result of this feedback is that the game systems team willl be evaluating ranged combat with a focus on ranged builds. In the game systems team, I'm senior game systems engineer. I help create the technology that design requires for the game. I do have a voice that carries in our meetings, and I will express your concerns. If we have a concrete plan that can be communicated, I'll be sure that it gets expressed by Quarion in the dev notes or otherwise I'll announce it to you in a new more appropriate thread.

I need to head off to the development cave again for a while. I hope to be a little more active a little more often with you all on these forums. Thanks for being respectful and for your patience. I will follow this thread through the week and may find time to respond after work hours.

Best regards,

Codog

PS. I will respond for sure on the rapid reload issue with repeaters as soon as I get an answer from design.

Qzipoun
10-15-2007, 10:10 AM
I need to head off to the development cave again for a while. I hope to be a little more active a little more often with you all on these forums. Thanks for being respectful and for your patience. I will follow this thread through the week and may find time to respond after work hours.

Once again, thank you.

Theboz
10-15-2007, 10:11 AM
THis has been the best(thread) info. I have seen with a Dev. and I have to thank-you for talking to us CoDog.

A ranger has become my Main and is my fav. to play I mostly use TWF, and depending on the fight I will switch to bow only for Manyshot, Disuption, Para, Curse, or if the mobs do stat damage or hard to fight, or the times when staying alive without any hitpoint damage is important(like soloing).

It would be nice if us rangers could get better DPS with bows, then I could go back to using bows more often.

Kisaragi
10-15-2007, 10:11 AM
One thing that was briefly touched on and I think should be considered is the value of ranged. Many times my paladin/wizard like breaking out the crossbows to range things with paralyzing/banishing/disrupting.

However, the only +5 bolts (the really nice ones) are chest drops. I wish house D stocked general ones that were non-returning (and returning as well).

One of the hobgoblins hurls a javelin, it hurts. I shoot a bolt, plink. Archers in Chains of Flame can rip entire parties apart with arrows, even if a raid group all had ranged, we're not doing the sort of damage they are.

Look at the Eternal Archers, they have arrows that rip through good characters as if they were paper.

To balance that, and make it interesting, I think we should have spell arrows/bolts, where when you fire it, it fires a spell like fireball. Or at the very least exploding ammunition. Somewhere where if you fire it, it goes boom and may affect 3 closeknit enemies.

Kobolds have long had exploding ammunition, no reason why we can't.

DSL
10-15-2007, 10:40 AM
If performance becomes a serious issue with entity creation, we can nerf a million monsters and they won't complain and not show up for the game the next evening because they are angry. ;)

Ahhh, this makes me think of (and miss) The Magical Pony.



Otherwise, a great big thanks to Codog for all the info/feedback here. I think we all apreciate the time and thought you have put into this for us, and that your explanations in no way "talk down" to us, nor show any sign of merely saying what we want to hear.

DSL
10-15-2007, 10:56 AM
To balance that, and make it interesting, I think we should have spell arrows/bolts, where when you fire it, it fires a spell like fireball. Or at the very least exploding ammunition. Somewhere where if you fire it, it goes boom and may affect 3 closeknit enemies.

Kobolds have long had exploding ammunition, no reason why we can't.

That would be fun... Fireball on a hit, or a mini-chain lightning. However, I don't think that kobold flaming tarballs explode in any area-damage sense, or at least I don't ever remember taking damage from someone else being hit by them.

Missing_Minds
10-15-2007, 11:28 AM
I need to head off to the development cave again for a while. I hope to be a little more active a little more often with you all on these forums. Thanks for being respectful and for your patience. I will follow this thread through the week and may find time to respond after work hours.


Thanks, Codog. We really do appricate the huge amount of feedback you've been giving us. Reminds me how the devs used to be which part of the reason why I enjoy this game.

Oh yeah, just noticed some of the times you were posting. Please make sure you've got time for your family and sleep. :)

tihocan
10-15-2007, 11:33 AM
Yes. There are some speed differences between the two. Basicallly different weapon styles will have some minor variants in their animation times. Ideally, I would have wanted these to be super uniform (which we did try at one point). However, the aesthetics of having a one handed dagger swinging at the same speed as a huge honking axe made things look pretty silly.
First of all thanks for your involvement in this thread, and for acknowledging this particular issue, which had been brought tons of times on the forums in the past with no dev answer.

I'm not sure what the problem with the animations is exactly, but it seems to me there are many parameters you can tune in order to make the animation lengths more or less uniform, like:
- the animation itself
- the speed at which it is played
- the time interval between two consecutive swinging animations

Is there really no way to tweak them so as to minimize the differences? It's really sad that some weapons like greatswords and falchions are not popular for the single reason that their swing rate is lower.
Please note I'm not saying the swing rate should be EXACTLY equal. But it should be similar enough so that it does not impact your DPS to the point it makes some weapons obsolete.

Mad_Bombardier
10-15-2007, 11:40 AM
Is there really no way to tweak them so as to minimize the differences? It's really sad that some weapons like greatswords and falchions are not popular for the single reason that their swing rate is lower.
Please note I'm not saying the swing rate should be EXACTLY equal. But it should be similar enough so that it does not impact your DPS to the point it makes some weapons obsolete.Agreed. I can understand the difference between a Greataxe and a Dagger. But, there should be no difference between a Greataxe and a Falchion.

For me, the big killer discrepancy here is the TWF animation. Not only is TWF perpetually behind on number of attacks (due to leveling differences in attacks/BAB compared to feat levels), TWF is further penalized with slower animation. Maybe we should just give up, leave the animation as is, and just rename it "1.5 Weapon Fighting," because that's the effective attacks per minute. :p However, I'd prefer a real fix. :)

Borror0
10-15-2007, 02:41 PM
Maybe we should just give up, leave the animation as is, and just rename it "1.5 Weapon Fighting," because that's the effective attacks per minute.

Now, that would be sig worthy! Sad I only got 4 little lines.. :(

EDIT: Oh, by the way, glad you've regained consiousness Codog! :) Sorry about that.. ;)

Mad_Bombardier
10-15-2007, 02:51 PM
Now, that would be sig worthy! Sad I only got 4 little lines.. :(

EDIT: Oh, by the way, glad you've regained consiousness Codog! :) Sorry about that.. ;)Bah, there's space! Who needs to reference the DDOwiki (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal), anyway? :p

And upon rereading, it appears my above post was a bit more antagonistic than I intended. I was trying to state a simple, unfortunate gameplay fact in a mildly sarcastic manner. I very much appreciate the dedication Codog has shown to the topic of Ranged Combat and hope that he will one day address TWF animations/rate of attack.

Riggs
10-15-2007, 05:01 PM
Rapid shot and rapid reload do stack.
Rapid shot and quickdraw stack as well.

And no... I'm not even beginning to hate anybody here. I hate bugs in the game, not the fine residents of Stormreach. Although that Lord Goodblade character, I don't trust that guy. He has shifty, small hands, and smells like enigmatic stew.

It is planned that ranged combat speed will increase with BAB all the way through level 20. However, you won't be seeing increases like 2X and 3X the current speed. (just to set some expectations)

Best wishes,

Codog

Awesome, any increase is a good thing.

And yeah, getting a detailed response to a long standing set of issues is great. Even if something is not possible, being told why it is not possible is far better than silence.

Asal
10-15-2007, 06:21 PM
CODOG is my favorite Developer of any game I have ever played

moorewr
10-15-2007, 06:52 PM
CODOG is my favorite Developer of any game I have ever played

/signed by another fan club member :)

DragonKiller
10-15-2007, 07:48 PM
Codog... once again. Thank you! This has to be one of the best (if not THE best) developer/community postings I have ever seen. My hats off to you!

I am also encouraged that ranged combat will be taken a closer look at. My main (well.. co-main) is a 12/2 Ranger/Fighter. While I love the ranger in him, I find the ranged to be to ineffective all too often and that was the main reason I went with 2 levels of fighter; so that I could make his meele more effective and make him loved in parties :D.

For those 20 seconds when his multi-shot is on and the right bow his DPS is very high, but after that.... Ehhh. Only real reason for his bows still is because things like Smiting, Disrupting, etc.. These are highly effective in a given situation, but when the level cap increases and the bad buys get higher and higher CR, their saves will make them all but immune to these weapon effects. At that point, only DPS will count (unless you have something like Greater Smiting, Greater Disrupting, etc...).

Again.. THANK you for the honest feed back. It is plainly obvious you take this game, and your job serious. It is awesome to see, and gives me hope for DDO and Turbine.

Borror0
10-15-2007, 10:55 PM
Bah, there's space! Who needs to reference the DDOwiki (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal), anyway? :p

DDOwiki (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal) reference? Where's that? I don't see any DDOwiki (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal) reference anywhere!:rolleyes:

Do you? If so, I'd like the url...

Why would it there be, it's not like we're needing editors to edit the DDOwiki (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal)!:rolleyes:

And honestly Mad B, I'm not the kind of person to do a shameless plug about my wiki (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal), even if it's the best source of DDO information.

Well, since we've mentioned it, I'll put a link here (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal) just for others to know what we're talking about, but I don't like that. I really hate when ppl plug there stuff, even if it's the best around!!

Sorry about that DDOwiki (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal) stuff, back to the topic! :)




:rolleyes:

EDIT: I feel really guilty of put that link (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal) there:


Well, since we've mentioned it, I'll put a link here (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal) just for others.

I really feel bad. :( I really don't like to put links (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal) like this. Even if it was just one.

I feel like I'm forcing people to click on the --> link (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal) <--. It's not my type. I really think the forums would be better without such linkage (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal).

Again, I'm really, really sorry for posting that single little link (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal) of nothing... but it's a lot to me.

I really hate links (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal).

Sorry again for that link (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Browse_portal).

GAULSTON
10-16-2007, 01:21 AM
Codog, thank you Sir for your speedy and informative responses to our questions and concerns. I do think you've gone above and beyond the title of this thread. Not sayin it's information overload, because I get a better understandin of the problem with your more detailed explanations.

Thank you for enlightenin us about the design issues in your earlier post (#43). At least now I have a different mind set for ranged combat. Thanks for your explanation of the "physics" aspect and the skill to hit before an actuall to hit roll. A lot more skill required there than just the old "You must face your target...". I feel sorry for the players who don't use mouse look mode tho. Can't immagine tryin to play a first person shooter without mouselook mode. I will surely take your advice and go to manual untargeted mode vs autoattack tab target. Not sure what the term "twitch" means, but am I to assume that requiring a degree of first person shooter skill is involved? I think most of us just got used to having the tab target autoattack system do all the work for us. Then BAM, changes to the combat system, WHAWHAWHAT?! lol. You know how well we take to changes to our confort zones, lol.

It does pose another question from me tho. In melee combat, suppose I'm swingin a great sword at a mob of untargetted monsters around me. Regardin the die rolls *crosses fingers* C'MON TWENTY! , does the die roll apply to the monster that is mainly infront of me, or all within glancin blow area? I noticed that every once in a while, I will vorpal a mobbie, from a glancin blow, who's not the monster most directly in front of me.:confused: Have'nt taken cleave yet either. How does the combat design take into effect the die roll as pertainin to untargetted mobs?

Thanks again Sir for all your time and efforts.

Codog
10-16-2007, 02:08 AM
Codog, thank you Sir for your speedy and informative responses to our questions and concerns. I do think you've gone above and beyond the title of this thread. Not sayin it's information overload, because I get a better understandin of the problem with your more detailed explanations.

Thank you for enlightenin us about the design issues in your earlier post (#43). At least now I have a different mind set for ranged combat. Thanks for your explanation of the "physics" aspect and the skill to hit before an actuall to hit roll. A lot more skill required there than just the old "You must face your target...". I feel sorry for the players who don't use mouse look mode tho. Can't immagine tryin to play a first person shooter without mouselook mode. I will surely take your advice and go to manual untargeted mode vs autoattack tab target. Not sure what the term "twitch" means, but am I to assume that requiring a degree of first person shooter skill is involved? I think most of us just got used to having the tab target autoattack system do all the work for us. Then BAM, changes to the combat system, WHAWHAWHAT?! lol. You know how well we take to changes to our confort zones, lol.

It does pose another question from me tho. In melee combat, suppose I'm swingin a great sword at a mob of untargetted monsters around me. Regardin the die rolls *crosses fingers* C'MON TWENTY! , does the die roll apply to the monster that is mainly infront of me, or all within glancin blow area? I noticed that every once in a while, I will vorpal a mobbie, from a glancin blow, who's not the monster most directly in front of me.:confused: Have'nt taken cleave yet either. How does the combat design take into effect the die roll as pertainin to untargetted mobs?

Thanks again Sir for all your time and efforts.

We don't show die feedback for the glancing blows (an independent die is rolled for each hit or miss). The die roll you are seeing is for the primary attack. We decided that it was too spammy to see all those die rolls back to back with the die UI. This being said, untargeted attacks pick an arbitrary target in the affected weapon swing detection box. If you have a target selected, it puts that target first in the list for the primary hit. If you aren't remotely facing that target and they don't show up in the weapon swing physics detection box, it picks an arbitrary target in the affected area as a primary target.

I'm glad I can help out,

Codog

Borror0
10-16-2007, 02:11 AM
Talking about Glancing blows... what do the feats do exactly... not clear at all..:confused:

I mean:

Two-handed fighting
Improved two-handed fighting
Greater two-handed fighting


Better to ask the Dev while we know he might answer, huh? :)

EDIT: we have this (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Two-handed_fighting), this (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Improved_two-handed_fighting) and this (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Greater_two-handed_fighting) on the wiki... any truth?

Wulf_Ratbane
10-16-2007, 07:54 AM
If you have a target selected, it puts that target first in the list for the primary hit. If you aren't remotely facing that target and they don't show up in the weapon swing physics detection box, it picks an arbitrary target in the affected area as a primary target.

I guess I've just sort of intuitively known this through gameplay. It's pretty evident when you actually do it.

When I am in a big pack of mobs-- say, hobgoblins-- and there's one caster in the group, I wade in and start swinging, turning in place or tumbling to try to keep the caster front and center, all while hitting TAB until he's actually the primary target.

No swing is "wasted," I'm always pounding on somebody, and more often than not, it's the caster. I might have one or two "stray" swings in there.

Now, when you're talking about a mixed mob of oozes, skeletons, and zombies, things get more complicated. In those instances you have a lot of mixed DR and some mobs you really don't want to hit with slashing weapons...

Codog
10-16-2007, 10:35 AM
First of all thanks for your involvement in this thread, and for acknowledging this particular issue, which had been brought tons of times on the forums in the past with no dev answer.

I'm not sure what the problem with the animations is exactly, but it seems to me there are many parameters you can tune in order to make the animation lengths more or less uniform, like:
- the animation itself
- the speed at which it is played
- the time interval between two consecutive swinging animations

Is there really no way to tweak them so as to minimize the differences? It's really sad that some weapons like greatswords and falchions are not popular for the single reason that their swing rate is lower.
Please note I'm not saying the swing rate should be EXACTLY equal. But it should be similar enough so that it does not impact your DPS to the point it makes some weapons obsolete.

I wrote this last night, but I lost power in a thunderstorm. Luckily I write responses in notepad and save often.

Bullet #1 - Ah.. yes. These bullet points above were very much my response to being handed these animations as well. Ideally speaking, if I could redo all the animations in the game for combat, I would certainly change a lot of things. I don't know if anybody has noticed, but our avatars skeletons are unique in height, width, and other dimensions. Because the D&D intellectual property is very specific about anatomical details of its races, we couldn't do cheaty art budget saving features like avatar scaling. So every weapon swing in the game is animated for 9 different avatars. Given 11 different melee attack swings (2 mobile attack, 5 standing attacks, 1 sneak attack, cleave, great cleave, and whirlwind) times 9 different avatars times 7 weapon styles, you can see that this adds up quite quickly. It took many man months of animation time to get our animations complete. I believe the animators took and animated the whole sequences of attacks and disected them into the individual attack animations with a lot of direction from design about attack hook times and combat cadence. Net out from this that it would take a lot of time to single out a swing and reanimate and have the flow of the animation not be broken. ( We don't have the original animator any longer who did the combat animations so the change might be too noticable. )

Bullet #2 - Scaling of individual animations to make their speeds more uniform. Believe it or not, I tried this. Let's just say that changing the pace of individual sequences in the combat chain makes it jerky, inconsistent, and look like total ****. I wish I had a fraps video of this experiment for you.

Bullet #3 - Our combat model was built upon the idea of responsive attack swings with the click of the mouse and freedom of movement. When we add artificial delays (which we've tried a number of times and in different ways) into the combat chain, the result is very dissatisfying from a user gameplay standpoint. You hammer on the attack button waiting and waiting and hoping that your attack is queued. Not only does this feel bad... it doesn't work. You can roll, you can jump, and you can move to interupt your combat chain and avoid these delays. There was a fantastic thread about this prior to module 3 for those who have been around for a while. If it is done by a hidden or visible cooldown timer, the resulting gameplay feels really bad. Your avatar is standing there doing nothing on the screen... you are hammering the mouse... then boom... he's responsive again for a few seconds. If we were an autoattack only game, this wouldn't be an issue so much. Since positional and temporal tactics matter in this game, it was far better to keep the attack times responsive with the click of the mouse.

The unfortunate truth to this is that when decisions were being made about the aesthetic look and feel of combat, not enough regard for the intellectual property and how advancement works in D&D was taken into account. The lead designer and creative director at the time wanted the combat chain to build from "chopping wood" swings into very heroic and complicated moves (which subsequently take more time to complete). This left systems design with a troublesome set of animations to wrap D&D combat and advancement around.

This being said, we often supplement these weapon styles with glancing blows and feats that add more attack hooks for offhand and glancing blows.

With two handed weapons,

Attack 1 with two handed weapons has a primary attack hook plus glancing attack hooks.
Greater Twohanded Weapon Fighting adds a glancing blow to attack 4
Superior Twohanded Weapon Fighting adds a glancing blow to attack 5 (when we get there)

With two weapon fighting,

Attack 1 has RH attack hook.
Attack 2 has RH, LH attack hook.
Attack 3 has RH attack hook
Attack 4 has RH attack hook
Attack 5 has RH, LH attack hook.

Improved TWF adds a LH attack hook to attack 3.
Greater TWF adds a LH attack hook to moving attack 1 (weird that it doesn't for standing... I'll be checking with design) and LH to attack 4.
Superior TWF adds another RH attack to attack 5.

Rangers get a lot of the TWF feats for free as they level up. If you are a fighter that likes splash damage, two handed weapons might be for you. If you are a targeted precise fighter, 1h fighting is great for you. If you like lighting up a target with different weapon effects and/or using wounding weapons dual wielding has advantages for you. Aside from TWF at early levels, with optimal feat choices, your DPS curves aren't terribly out of balance. A fellow in QA and I spent a long time running statistical analysis at every level with every different set of feat choices in the game with every weapon style using level appropriate weapons and monsters.

One of the great open problems we're talking about right now is how flexible our advancement system is in the game. There are a number of really good choices you can make and a disportionately large number of bad choices you can make. As a beginner to the game, people regrettably make some bad choices that really make their gameplay experience not as much fun as it could be. That being said, some of the "bad" choices if you know what you are doing with a build can be great choices under different multiclass builds.

I hope this helps.

Codog

PS. 1.5 Handed Fighting... LOL... if I had another margarita last night at dinner, I would be explaining to the QA manager this morning why I changed all the feats names and descriptions. "Improved 1.5 Weapon Fighting" *chuckles* You cracked me up. I wish that guy at DDO1Liners was still making his comic. He would have a field day with that.

mocat
10-16-2007, 10:40 AM
Wow. :eek: :D

Awesome communication Codog! :) :D

From here on out, you are hereby promoted to Cokobold. :D :D :D

Codog
10-16-2007, 10:54 AM
Talking about Glancing blows... what do the feats do exactly... not clear at all..:confused:

I mean:

Two-handed fighting
Improved two-handed fighting
Greater two-handed fighting
Better to ask the Dev while we know he might answer, huh? :)

EDIT: we have this (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Two-handed_fighting), this (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Improved_two-handed_fighting) and this (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Greater_two-handed_fighting) on the wiki... any truth?

You have officially surpassed my four year old in questions per day! I'm not sure whose are harder to answer. This morning in the kitchen while getting the girls ready for school this conversation was overheard in my household.

Audrey: "Can you get mommy pregnant so that she has a puppy?" I snarfed my latte up my nose when she asked that one. My wife won't appreciate my answer. ( She reads my posts! )

Codog: "Technically, it is probably possible with the marvels of modern science."

And for once I can say, I already answered your question in another reply on this thread. :) Seriously though, a mentor of mine used to say that the only stupid question is the one left unasked. I especially appreciate your efforts to clarify things that are ambiguous in our game. I'll be looking through the feat descriptions sometime to see if we can clarify them some more.

Best regards,

Codog

Cinwulf
10-16-2007, 10:57 AM
LOL Funny :p Kids say the darndest things! Don't you just luv them? :)

Garth_of_Sarlona
10-16-2007, 11:05 AM
Codog,

Thanks for the great communication

Can you confirm whether the combo chains lists on the DDO wiki here (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Combo_chain) are correct?

People keep telling me that I wasted a feat on Greater Two Weapon fighting (maybe I made one of the 'large number of bad choices you can make'?) as they say I don't actually get seven attacks - but I count them and I do appear to get seven and the wiki confirms this...

Will I go up to 9 automatically once the level cap is raised and I get to level 15?

Garth

Mad_Bombardier
10-16-2007, 11:06 AM
PS. 1.5 Handed Fighting... LOL... if I had another margarita last night at dinner, I would be explaining to the QA manager this morning why I changed all the feats names and descriptions. "Improved 1.5 Weapon Fighting" *chuckles* You cracked me up. I wish that guy at DDO1Liners was still making his comic. He would have a field day with that.:D Glad I could help.

Seriously, though. Even in PnP, it's "1.75 Weapon Fighting" until you reach Epic and get Perfect TWF bringing it back up to 2:1 attacks/round ratio.

7:4 attacks/time ratio for a Fighter/Ranger becomes 6:4 when you consider the slower TWF animation. For a 3/4 BAB class like Bard or Rogue, you don't have access to Greater TWF yet, so are stuck at 6:4 slowed to ~4.5:4. From a DPS standpoint, there's basically no reason for a Bard/Rogue to even bother.

I was really hoping that you wouldn't add Superior TWF/5th attack and that Bards/Rogues could catch up by level 16. Sadly, you are including Superior and Bards/Rogues are behind again. More feats to spend to get little benefit, and locked out from ever getting Superior TWF (BAB+16 required). :( Fighters/Rangers will be 9:5 slowed to ~[7.5-8]:5 (perhaps slightly faster ratio than now) and Bards/Rogues will be 7:5 slowed to ~[5.5-6]:5. But, neither are at the full 7:4 (1.75x) ratio of PnP. Will we ever catch up? Is there any hope for TWF attack rate/DPS? Or must we rely on shared weapon attributes and other bonuses to eke out a living?

Edit: /doubletake. Am I reading the above correctly?
With two weapon fighting,

Attack 1 has RH attack hook.
Attack 2 has RH, LH attack hook.
Attack 3 has RH attack hook
Attack 4 has RH attack hook
Attack 5 has RH, LH attack hook.

Improved TWF adds a LH attack hook to attack 3.
Greater TWF adds a LH attack hook to moving attack 1 (weird that it doesn't for standing... I'll be checking with design) and LH to attack 4.
Superior TWF adds another RH attack to attack 5.TWF#5 will get right and left hook. Then, Superior TWF will add another right hook at highest bonus! :eek: 10:5 ratio, even with slower TWF animation means close to PnP 1.75x attacks. Oh, happy day! :D

Mad_Bombardier
10-16-2007, 11:10 AM
People keep telling me that I wasted a feat on Greater Two Weapon fighting (maybe I made one of the 'large number of bad choices you can make'?) as they say I don't actually get seven attacks - but I count them and I do appear to get seven and the wiki confirms this...Garth, see my post above. You do indeed get 7 attacks, but the TWF animation is slower. The net result is about 1.5x attacks of a sword and board guy in the same time.

Vinos
10-16-2007, 11:14 AM
You have officially surpassed my four year old in questions per day! I'm not sure whose are harder to answer. This morning in the kitchen while getting the girls ready for school this conversation was overheard in my household.

Audrey: "Can you get mommy pregnant so that she has a puppy?" I snarfed my latte up my nose when she asked that one. My wife won't appreciate my answer. ( She reads my posts! )

Codog: "Technically, it is probably possible with the marvels of modern science."

And for once I can say, I already answered your question in another reply on this thread. :) Seriously though, a mentor of mine used to say that the only stupid question is the one left unasked. I especially appreciate your efforts to clarify things that are ambiguous in our game. I'll be looking through the feat descriptions sometime to see if we can clarify them some more.

Best regards,

Codog

Best Dev ever. Thanks for communicating.

tihocan
10-16-2007, 11:29 AM
I wrote this last night, but I lost power in a thunderstorm. Luckily I write responses in notepad and save often.
Good habit. I guess I'm lucky too then ;)


(...) This left systems design with a troublesome set of animations to wrap D&D combat and advancement around.
Big thanks again for sharing all this. Now I understand much better why it's not as easy as it seems. It's still a bit disappointing to learn that not much can be done, but who knows... maybe in the long-term someone will figure out a solution?


This being said, we often supplement these weapon styles with glancing blows and feats that add more attack hooks for offhand and glancing blows.(..)
Yup, I was more worried about discrepancies within the same weapon style (with the specific weapons I cited previously).

Thanks again, it was great to receive such a detailed reply! :)

Edit: I'd be curious to see what happens if you speed up a very little bit the greatsword animation, and add a very short interval between the greataxe swings (in the hope of bringing their swing/sec rate closer). Can you do it on Risia and let us experiment it? (I guess it's a no, but hehe, I tried)

MysticTheurge
10-16-2007, 11:43 AM
The unfortunate truth to this is that when decisions were being made about the aesthetic look and feel of combat, not enough regard for the intellectual property and how advancement works in D&D was taken into account.

As depressing as this is, it's good to actually hear someone say it.

Rog
10-16-2007, 11:59 AM
Hey CoDog you rock man i think what your doing with this thread should be the model for the entire dev team. I know the you have family and a real life and so does the rest of your team but what your doing is great and i ty for it. I believe by knowing what problems you have in fixing the bugs we can provide you with great feedback and any other dev that would share there problems with us that we can in turn make your life easier and more productive and get a better game which makes everyone happy except the true blue flamers they will never be happy
lunarsong
silentfoot
oakwrath
shortii
allon
swordsponge
p.s my spelling sucks

Missing_Minds
10-16-2007, 12:10 PM
Thanks so much for telling us how the animations were coded and about the weapon attacks. It really explains a lot of things now, and can help several of us actually give better details in bug reports.

Also, your daughter about made me spit my drink out with her question as well. :) That is one precious kid you have there.

Club'in
10-16-2007, 01:10 PM
While we're on the subject of animations, someone brought up a point earlier, and it tied in again as to the kiting aspect of ranger fighting.

It can be very frustrating to try and time switching weapons to melee, after popping an incoming monster with a few ranged shots. I think this contributes to rangers feeling the need to continue kiting. I would like to suggest that two things be performed immediately, interrupting all animations and attack sequences; switching weapons or weapon sets, and shield blocking. I almost never see melee fighters using their shields. And it's partly because of the animation sequences. You're right clicking away, maybe strafing a little bit. And you see the giant rearing back for a big swing, but there is no way you're gonna get that shield up in a timely fashion because your character is trying to complete its animation sequence. So why bother? This is especially crippling for us ranger types, cause the animation sequence we're talking about is the reload animation. I think that ought to be immediately interrupted by the weapon switch command. Those two things would go a long way to enhancing our fighting experience.

Spectralist
10-16-2007, 01:34 PM
Those two things would go a long way to enhancing our fighting experience.

I agree entirely. Especially about shield blocking, but especially about swapping during reload animations :D

NJDaniels
10-16-2007, 01:52 PM
This affects repeaters. No worries friend.

Codog

Ok Codog,

I did some speed tests. I bought a stack of regular bolts and went to a nice secluded tavern where no server lag could bog me down and tried a few things... You are correct in that the Black Dragon Armour works with Repeaters, thank goodness! But what about Haste? I thought that was supposed to work on ranged attacks?

Without the armour on and without Haste I shot 100 bolts in 1:06 (this is with of course all my feats and BA of an 8 Fighter / 6 Rogue).

With Haste I shot 100 bolts in 1:06.

With the armour on and without Haste I shot 100 bolts in 55 seconds.

With Haste I shot 100 bolts in 55 seconds.

So clearly Haste isn't working on Heavy Repeaters. I can't use Light, so I can't declare it doesn't work on them.

Any thoughts?

MysticTheurge
10-16-2007, 01:56 PM
I can't use Light, so I can't declare it doesn't work on them.

Anyone can use any weapons in the game (barring race or alignment restrictions). Non-proficiency merely confers a -4 penalty on your attack roll.

mocat
10-16-2007, 01:59 PM
Anyone can use any weapons in the game (barring race or alignment restrictions). Non-proficiency merely confers a -4 penalty on your attack roll.

As far as I know, this doesn't apply to repeaters.

Non-proficient means you shoot one bolt - reload - shoot one -reload - etc.

At least that was how it was the last time I checked about 3 months ago.

Missing_Minds
10-16-2007, 02:01 PM
Anyone can use any weapons in the game (barring race or alignment restrictions). Non-proficiency merely confers a -4 penalty on your attack roll.

Mocat is right on this one, MT. Non proficient means you get only 1 shot.

MysticTheurge
10-16-2007, 02:03 PM
Non-proficient means you shoot one bolt - reload - shoot one -reload - etc.

Wow, who knew. ;)

maddmatt70
10-16-2007, 02:04 PM
Ok Codog,

I did some speed tests. I bought a stack of regular bolts and went to a nice secluded tavern where no server lag could bog me down and tried a few things... You are correct in that the Black Dragon Armour works with Repeaters, thank goodness! But what about Haste? I thought that was supposed to work on ranged attacks?

Without the armour on and without Haste I shot 100 bolts in 1:06 (this is with of course all my feats and BA of an 8 Fighter / 6 Rogue).

With Haste I shot 100 bolts in 1:06.

With the armour on and without Haste I shot 100 bolts in 55 seconds.

With Haste I shot 100 bolts in 55 seconds.

So clearly Haste isn't working on Heavy Repeaters. I can't use Light, so I can't declare it doesn't work on them.

Any thoughts?

After looking at this - I have to test it with a bow. I should really consider getting the black dragon armor for my ranged character is the unescapeable conclusion.

maddmatt70
10-16-2007, 02:15 PM
After reading Codog's explanations - it seems to me that you basically have to have good first person shooter skills in order to be a quality ranged player. I have never been a first person shooter gamer so I tend to have the auto attack on with ranged (never with my melee). It would take quite a learning curve for me to perfect mouse view first person shooter style combat. Considering that even if I perfect this style ranged combat is kind of gimped it leads to the question for me of why play ranged other then pure enjoyment of ranged combat. I think that i have a good "dps ranged build", but who has fallen into the I use bows generally only when multishot is ready and melee otherwise with my ranged fighter.

Thank you very much Codog.

Norg

Kalanth
10-16-2007, 03:40 PM
I gave the FPS style of ranged combat a try in a PVP Arena test. Using the Capture the Flag arena of the Quick foot Hideout, I had a friend run right to left and left to right while I remained stationary and attempted to lead the target. I found that I received a To Hit Roll on only 25% of the shots fired. Assuming human error on some of those shots, that is still a dismally small number out of a stack of 100.

I tried this again while taking advantage of Shot on the Run and another stack of 100 arrows. My results changed slightly, again factoring in human error, I got a roll 17% of the time. Either my skills are way off base, or the physics detection was not running up to par.

Finally I tried these tests with the opponent auto targeted and using my personal rate of fire (not auto attack). While standing still I hit each time he switched direction at the ends (translates to roughly 14% of the time) while each shot trailed dismally behind while he was running. When I ran along with shot on the run I received a roll on 94% of the shots because I was largely next to the opponent.

Pretty much, the chances of hitting without the assistance of the system feel so dismally small that it is pretty much without point to manually control the targeting.. I don't see why we can't just change the auto targeted trajectory to fire in front (lead) as opposed to behind (trail) the target.

** Give or take 2% in the results as I left the documentation at home and I am at work right now **

Lorien_the_First_One
10-16-2007, 04:09 PM
I wrote this last night, but I lost power in a thunderstorm. Luckily I write responses in notepad and save often.

Bullet #1 - Ah.. yes. These bullet points above were very much my response to being handed these animations as well. Ideally speaking, if I could redo all the animations in the game for combat, I would certainly change a lot of things. I don't know if anybody has noticed, but our avatars skeletons are unique in height, width, and other dimensions. Because the D&D intellectual property is very specific about anatomical details of its races, we couldn't do cheaty art budget saving features like avatar scaling. So every weapon swing in the game is animated for 9 different avatars. Given 11 different melee attack swings (2 mobile attack, 5 standing attacks, 1 sneak attack, cleave, great cleave, and whirlwind) times 9 different avatars times 7 weapon styles, you can see that this adds up quite quickly. .

Thanks for all the feedback in this thread Codog....Not only is the communication nice, hearing the behinds the scenes stuff showing that you are concerned with the same things we are, and then learning why its not easy to fix, is really helpful.

I can see from you post why reanimating every swing would be a bit overwhelming. I can also see why practicality made the dagger swing faster, but there are still some solutions...

Don't reanimate everything, reanimate just the worst of the bunch to bring it closer to the rest. Falchon comes to mind for the 2handers and for the dagger, you could just add a florish/feint animation before each stab. (Really, when fighting with daggers against a great axe you would just jab, you'd be doing some foot/handwork anyway)

I'm currious also about your comments about the limitations on bodyshape/size you were given. There have been a number of threads asking for customization, is this the reason you can't do it? Are you actually not allowed by Wizards to have fat elves, skinny dwarfs, gangly humans, etc?

Borror0
10-16-2007, 04:50 PM
You have officially surpassed my four year old in questions per day! I'm not sure whose are harder to answer.

Not the first time I've been told this one.:rolleyes:


And for once I can say, I already answered your question in another reply on this thread. :) Seriously though, a mentor of mine used to say that the only stupid question is the one left unasked.

Yep, I have the same saying... I think it's quite obvious.


I especially appreciate your efforts to clarify things that are ambiguous in our game. I'll be looking through the feat descriptions sometime to see if we can clarify them some more.

Yay!! One fight won, but not the war.

Seriously, sorry to ask so many questions Codog, but when you try to inform others and try to be 100% accurate... you realise there is so many things we don't know about. I'd challenge anyone to edit a spell page on and wiki and be 100% sure of all he'd say. Heck, even some buffs are confusing!:eek:

Borror0
10-16-2007, 05:03 PM
I was really hoping that you wouldn't add Superior TWF/5th attack and that Bards/Rogues could catch up by level 16. Sadly, you are including Superior and Bards/Rogues are behind again. More feats to spend to get little benefit, and locked out from ever getting Superior TWF (BAB+16 required).

I've always wondered why they haven't changed the BAB requirements...

In PnP, you get additionnal attacks at lBAB 6, 11, 16 and 20. For this reason, most BAB requirement are 6, 11 and 16.

However, they changed the BAb at which we get extra attacks to 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20.

For thsi reason, the new BAB should be 5, 10 and 15 from a logical point of view, also, that would allow bards and rogues to get the feat!:)

I remember a dev saying it would be the case of STWF and that it would have a BAB of prereq 15... anyone else do remember this?

Mad_Bombardier
10-16-2007, 05:24 PM
I've always wondered why they haven't changed the BAB requirements...

In PnP, you get additionnal attacks at lBAB 6, 11, 16 and 20. For this reason, most BAB requirement are 6, 11 and 16.

However, they changed the BAb at which we get extra attacks to 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20.

For thsi reason, the new BAB should be 5, 10 and 15 from a logical point of view, also, that would allow bards and rogues to get the feat!:)

I remember a dev saying it would be the case of STWF and that it would have a BAB of prereq 15... anyone else do remember this?The attacks/BAB change also plagues Manyshot. By the time you get a 3rd arrow, melee is on 4 swings. By the time we get our 4th (and final) arrow, melee will be on 5 swings with a 6th probably coming at 20. :(

Borror0
10-16-2007, 05:36 PM
The attacks/BAB change also plagues Manyshot. By the time you get a 3rd arrow, melee is on 4 swings. By the time we get our 4th (and final) arrow, melee will be on 5 swings with a 6th probably coming at 20. :(

Maybe they should reconsider?:D

Kalanth
10-16-2007, 05:58 PM
Maybe they should reconsider?:D

Honestly, at this point in the game there is a lot that should be reconsidered, but the logistics are mind boggling.

Codog
10-16-2007, 06:12 PM
Hey CoDog you rock man i think what your doing with this thread should be the model for the entire dev team.

Unfortunately, if everybody on the team took time to communicate in this fashion it would slow our development down significantly. There is real value in this kind of communication that is hard to really express and quantify in terms of "Is this more important than feature X?" Quarion does a fantastic job of getting us a list of your concerns on a very regular basis (weekly). He'll hunt us down and try to become informed about the problems. What is missing there is that when it comes to accurately conveying precise information and answering questions like what we see in this thread, it would take far too much overhead to manage it in this fashion.

We have a really good team for DDO. This has been my favorite group of people to work with ever. Our team has become very much like a family over time through the galvanizing force of going through really stressful times together and some long work hours. I can assure you that we have a team that cares about this game and about the players. The time has come and past for folks who don't want to be on the team to get out. Everybody on the team chooses to be here!

As a developer of the game who has poured tons of sweat equity into this product for the last three and a half years with lots of passion and personal sacrifice. I can tell you it is PAINFUL to read some of the feedback here. (not on this particular thread, but in general) There were days when I read the forums and felt really awful about myself and about my choice to invest myself in this product. To put some context into the kind of sacrifices that aren't uncommon in our industry:

I left a job that paid much more than I make now. I drug my family across the country away from their friends, loved ones, family, and schools to live in Boston where the cost of living and extreme weather put a serious crimp in our lifestyle. My dear wife suffered many, many lonely evenings while I worked late. She had to sacrifice a few years of her career for me to do this. All of this was not because Turbine demanded it.... it was because I was fulfilling a childhood dream of making Dungeons and Dragons come to life. I'm really lucky that my wife understood this ambition and this drive and supported this so much. Cumulatively, between the loss of her salary and my pay cut, we've "paid" over $100K for our copy of Dungeons and Dragons Online. ;)

Was worth it? Not just yes.... **** YES!
Do I take the game seriously? **** YES!
Are there others on the team that have had personal sacrifice like this? Without a doubt.

You can't put a price tag on waking up in the morning and enjoying what you do. You can't put a price tag on fulfilling a childhood dream (no matter how silly and unrealistic it might be). You can't put a price tag on working with some of the most interesting and diverse people in the world. Every ambition has its costs both personally and to the ones around you that love you.

Am I satisfied with DDO now? Nope. None of us are! We are working to improve it, trying to keep a delicate balance between bug fixing and new features.

So... to get back more so to the point of what I was trying to get at. I can't blame anybody on the DDO team for having difficulties looking at these forums and seeing all their effort and work being ridiculed or sarcastically torn apart. It is humiliating to have your mistakes put up on public display. You have to totally humble yourself to admit publicly that somebody else has good ideas. Given a group of people that are somewhat introverted to start with, it would be an amazingly difficult expectation for our team to fulfill this level of communication regularly in addition to continuing to build the game.

Please accept my apology on behalf of the team for not having the time and/or the emotional capitol to be super active on the forums. So the next time you have "constructive feedback" ;) , please keep in mind that we are afterall human ... more or less. Although, I'm beginning to suspect Bunsen is a mindflayer in disguise.

My data build is complete now and I need to get back at it. There are new feats and spells that need my attention.

I do appreciate all the thumbs up I've seen in this thread. It makes me feel really good knowing that people out there playing the game are having fun and care about what we've created. Keep good ideas flowing on the boards and let us know what is good and what you'd like to see more of in the game.

Best regards,

Codog

PS. I don't intend to receive pity or admiration for sacrifices made. So please don't! I lived my dream! If you are going to thank anybody, thank my wife being so understanding and patient with me through all the rollercoasters of the development of this product. She was the one that made the true sacrifice here! She was also the one who prodded me into posting here the first time.

PPS. The rapid reload feat not affecting repeating crossbows is verified by design as a bug. I will be fixing this in module 6 and QA permitting maybe sooner.

TEK
10-16-2007, 06:17 PM
Unfortunately, if everybody on the team took time to communicate in this fashion it would slow our development down significantly. There is real value in this kind of communication that is hard to really express and quantify in terms of "Is this more important than feature X?" Quarion does a fantastic job of getting us a list of your concerns on a very regular basis (weekly). He'll hunt us down and try to become informed about the problems. What is missing there is that when it comes to accurately conveying precise information and answering questions like what we see in this thread, it would take far too much overhead to manage it in this fashion.

We have a really good team for DDO. This has been my favorite group of people to work with ever. Our team has become very much like a family over time through the galvanizing force of going through really stressful times together and some long work hours. I can assure you that we have a team that cares about this game and about the players. The time has come and past for folks who don't want to be on the team to get out. Everybody on the team chooses to be here!

As a developer of the game who has poured tons of sweat equity into this product for the last three and a half years with lots of passion and personal sacrifice. I can tell you it is PAINFUL to read some of the feedback here. (not on this particular thread, but in general) There were days when I read the forums and felt really awful about myself and about my choice to invest myself in this product. To put some context into the kind of sacrifices that aren't uncommon in our industry:

I left a job that paid much more than I make now. I drug my family across the country away from their friends, loved ones, family, and schools to live in Boston where the cost of living and extreme weather put a serious crimp in our lifestyle. My dear wife suffered many, many lonely evenings while I worked late. She had to sacrifice a few years of her career for me to do this. All of this was not because Turbine demanded it.... it was because I was fulfilling a childhood dream of making Dungeons and Dragons come to life. I'm really lucky that my wife understood this ambition and this drive and supported this so much. Cumulatively, between the loss of her salary and my pay cut, we've "paid" over $100K for our copy of Dungeons and Dragons Online. ;)

Was worth it? Not just yes.... **** YES!
Do I take the game seriously? **** YES!
Are there others on the team that have had personal sacrifice like this? Without a doubt.

You can't put a price tag on waking up in the morning and enjoying what you do. You can't put a price tag on fulfilling a childhood dream (no matter how silly and unrealistic it might be). You can't put a price tag on working with some of the most interesting and diverse people in the world. Every ambition has its costs both personally and to the ones around you that love you.

Am I satisfied with DDO now? Nope. None of us are! We are working to improve it, trying to keep a delicate balance between bug fixing and new features.

So... to get back more so to the point of what I was trying to get at. I can't blame anybody on the DDO team for having difficulties looking at these forums and seeing all their effort and work being ridiculed or sarcastically torn apart. It is humiliating to have your mistakes put up on public display. You have to totally humble yourself to admit publicly that somebody else has good ideas. Given a group of people that are somewhat introverted to start with, it would be an amazingly difficult expectation for our team to fulfill this level of communication regularly in addition to continuing to build the game.

Please accept my apology on behalf of the team for not having the time and/or the emotional capitol to be super active on the forums. So the next time you have "constructive feedback" ;) , please keep in mind that we are afterall human ... more or less. Although, I'm beginning to suspect Bunsen is a mindflayer in disguise.

My data build is complete now and I need to get back at it. There are new feats and spells that need my attention.

I do appreciate all the thumbs up I've seen in this thread. It makes me feel really good knowing that people out there playing the game are having fun and care about what we've created. Keep good ideas flowing on the boards and let us know what is good and what you'd like to see more of in the game.

Best regards,

Codog

PS. I don't intend to receive pity or admiration for sacrifices made. So please don't! I lived my dream! If you are going to thank anybody, thank my wife being so understanding and patient with me through all the rollercoasters of the development of this product. She was the one that made the true sacrifice here! She was also the one who prodded me into posting here the first time.

PPS. The rapid reload feat not affecting repeating crossbows is verified by design as a bug. I will be fixing this in module 6 and QA permitting maybe sooner.



wow....simply wow.....


thank you:)

Drider
10-16-2007, 06:22 PM
wow....simply wow.....


thank you:)


QFT

:)

Asal
10-16-2007, 06:22 PM
Unfortunately, if everybody on the team took time to communicate in this fashion it would slow our development down significantly. There is real value in this kind of communication that is hard to really express and quantify in terms of "Is this more important than feature X?" Quarion does a fantastic job of getting us a list of your concerns on a very regular basis (weekly). He'll hunt us down and try to become informed about the problems. What is missing there is that when it comes to accurately conveying precise information and answering questions like what we see in this thread, it would take far too much overhead to manage it in this fashion.

We have a really good team for DDO. This has been my favorite group of people to work with ever. Our team has become very much like a family over time through the galvanizing force of going through really stressful times together and some long work hours. I can assure you that we have a team that cares about this game and about the players. The time has come and past for folks who don't want to be on the team to get out. Everybody on the team chooses to be here!

As a developer of the game who has poured tons of sweat equity into this product for the last three and a half years with lots of passion and personal sacrifice. I can tell you it is PAINFUL to read some of the feedback here. (not on this particular thread, but in general) There were days when I read the forums and felt really awful about myself and about my choice to invest myself in this product. To put some context into the kind of sacrifices that aren't uncommon in our industry:

I left a job that paid much more than I make now. I drug my family across the country away from their friends, loved ones, family, and schools to live in Boston where the cost of living and extreme weather put a serious crimp in our lifestyle. My dear wife suffered many, many lonely evenings while I worked late. She had to sacrifice a few years of her career for me to do this. All of this was not because Turbine demanded it.... it was because I was fulfilling a childhood dream of making Dungeons and Dragons come to life. I'm really lucky that my wife understood this ambition and this drive and supported this so much. Cumulatively, between the loss of her salary and my pay cut, we've "paid" over $100K for our copy of Dungeons and Dragons Online. ;)

Was worth it? Not just yes.... **** YES!
Do I take the game seriously? **** YES!
Are there others on the team that have had personal sacrifice like this? Without a doubt.

You can't put a price tag on waking up in the morning and enjoying what you do. You can't put a price tag on fulfilling a childhood dream (no matter how silly and unrealistic it might be). You can't put a price tag on working with some of the most interesting and diverse people in the world. Every ambition has its costs both personally and to the ones around you that love you.

Am I satisfied with DDO now? Nope. None of us are! We are working to improve it, trying to keep a delicate balance between bug fixing and new features.

So... to get back more so to the point of what I was trying to get at. I can't blame anybody on the DDO team for having difficulties looking at these forums and seeing all their effort and work being ridiculed or sarcastically torn apart. It is humiliating to have your mistakes put up on public display. You have to totally humble yourself to admit publicly that somebody else has good ideas. Given a group of people that are somewhat introverted to start with, it would be an amazingly difficult expectation for our team to fulfill this level of communication regularly in addition to continuing to build the game.

Please accept my apology on behalf of the team for not having the time and/or the emotional capitol to be super active on the forums. So the next time you have "constructive feedback" ;) , please keep in mind that we are afterall human ... more or less. Although, I'm beginning to suspect Bunsen is a mindflayer in disguise.

My data build is complete now and I need to get back at it. There are new feats and spells that need my attention.

I do appreciate all the thumbs up I've seen in this thread. It makes me feel really good knowing that people out there playing the game are having fun and care about what we've created. Keep good ideas flowing on the boards and let us know what is good and what you'd like to see more of in the game.

Best regards,

Codog

PS. I don't intend to receive pity or admiration for sacrifices made. So please don't! I lived my dream! If you are going to thank anybody, thank my wife being so understanding and patient with me through all the rollercoasters of the development of this product. She was the one that made the true sacrifice here! She was also the one who prodded me into posting here the first time.

PPS. The rapid reload feat not affecting repeating crossbows is verified by design as a bug. I will be fixing this in module 6 and QA permitting maybe sooner.

CODOG thank you so much, this clear imformative communication to players has been lacking lately. I was worried about the future of DDO and had actually start to look around in case DDO died. I feel much more confident now about a game I have wanted to play since 1978 when I first bought the Players Handbook and taught my friends and myself how to play.


PS Tell your wife and family how much we appreciated their sacrifice.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

WeaselKing
10-16-2007, 06:38 PM
Thank you Codog for your candor. I hope the doomsayers read and understand a little better.

Dane_McArdy
10-16-2007, 06:41 PM
Mrs. Codog, I thank you.

And all the little Codogs. I hope you get your puppy!

sheldie
10-16-2007, 06:43 PM
Mrs. Codog, I thank you.

And all the little Codogs. I hope you get your puppy!

I second and third the sentiment.

DagazUlf
10-16-2007, 06:46 PM
When do I get my Codog fan club t-shirt exactly? I might be out-of-town, and I'd hate to miss it....

;)

Pellegro
10-16-2007, 06:55 PM
and THAT ladies and gentlemen, is how its done. Even if only once every few months ... this thread stands as a great example of taking a source of frustration for community adn developers alike, and turning it into an opportunity for greater gaming satisfaction. CODOG, hats off. You're a class act.

And the forums, and the bickering, and the whining? I know its easier said then done, but please try to remember that the only reason people put so much energy into complaining (even if their parents apparently did not teach them manners) is because of their deep love for what the team created. For what YOU have created.

And now, in light of the rapid reload fix, I'm off to level my bard/rogue repeater build!

Brimy
10-16-2007, 06:57 PM
Thankyou for the posts Codog its really appreciated, goodluck and I look forward to what you and the rest of the team has to offer us in the future.

:)

Mad_Bombardier
10-16-2007, 06:58 PM
/awe

Keep up the great work and "Go Dog, Go!" (that's what we can print on the t-shirts for the fanclub :D)

Perceval418
10-16-2007, 07:01 PM
Well it might suck, but it is far from a problem and is very logical. I will make you a deal, you get a bow and arrow. I will get a baseball bat, and we will see who hits who faster and more. Better yet I will get 2 bats and give you a crossbow, I will stand 20 yards away and we will see who wins.
Its just logical, I would like to see more of a need for ranged attacks at certain times or more / better enchaments that make the DPS go up per shot go up or maybe MAYBE make you fire much faster.
But when it all boils down to it it makes sense, better off sitting back in a group firing and letting the fighters / barbarians do their melee thing.
/shrug

The rangers ive played with at higher levels do this when they range. They get a paralyzing bow, a stat damager, or a high DPS/Bane bow, and fire away.

Part of the reason you also get TWF for free is because your not expected to just run around with a bow 24.7

Barumar
10-16-2007, 07:09 PM
Dear Mrs. Codog,

Please know how much I and others love this game that your husband has helped to create. I have been playing computer games for over 30 years (now that just made me feel really old!), and I have NEVER kept playing one game exclusively for as long as I have been playing DDO!

To put it simply, this game ROCKS!

I have just been reminded how frustrating it can be for the Dev's to see some of the posts here on the DDO forums, so I will try to be more understanding and patient, and post more thank you posts, but I am just human - and when something I am this into does not work as well as I think it should, I sometimes vent...

I will try and be a better person, and let you and your Husbands dedication and sacrifice for the sake of DDO inspire me!

Barumar

Boulderun
10-16-2007, 07:11 PM
Thanks again Codog for going above and beyond in discussing these issues with the game that have been a sore spot with players for a long time, the details of development that are hard to see behind release notes and essentially form-letter CS responses, and for reminding us that the developers do care about the game that has required a lot of dedication.

In that spirit, and with your confirmation about this rapid reload bug, I think it has to be apparent now on both the company and consumer sides that there has been a real problem in getting information both to the dev team about real, complex issues and back from them about what is really going on when release notes and community rep relays don't measure up or just skip issues entirely. Rapid reload for repeaters is something that has been brought up in dozens of threads for months and months and had bug reports submitted regarding it for just as long, yet it was not until Codog's personal crusade on his own time to clear up confusion on just one section of the game that it was even confirmed as a bug.

Obviously both players and makers need to do better on this, and as the "submit bug reports" refrain has not been getting the job done, something must be done to help us help you.

lasra
10-16-2007, 07:16 PM
PS. Don't think that every night I'm up till 2:00am working on bugs all the time. I do have a wife and kids to look after. It's great when your 7 year old daughter gets out of bed walks into your office room and says, "What's up with all the kobolds dad? What kind of arrows are those?"

Ha ha ha ha ha. Gotta love kids. Best quotes (to date) from my 3 y.o. daughter:

(Regarding my ranger) "Why do you look like a tree?"

"Is that naughty Ogre trying to get you?"

"What's a Hobbagobbin?"

and my all-time favorite, (and I am not kidding)

(regarding Coyle) "That man is silly, is he?"

MysticTheurge
10-16-2007, 08:01 PM
PS:

A forum moderator needs to change the title of this thread to "omg CODOG said and did something!"

GeneralDiomedes
10-16-2007, 08:11 PM
You can't put a price tag on waking up in the morning and enjoying what you do.

All too true. And something you don't understand until you wake up in the morning realizing you don't actually like what you do even though it pays well.

Brianius
10-16-2007, 08:15 PM
PS:

A forum moderator needs to change the title of this thread to "omg CODOG said and did something!"

i second this
codog amazing now get some sleep

BunBun
10-16-2007, 09:03 PM
Codog,

I've been watching this thread since your first response, and I have to say (like many others here), Wow.

I'd like to take this moment to, on behalf of the entire Lifetaker's & Heartbreakers Guild of Ghallanda and Khyber, say thank you for your dedication, for your willingness to listen to our concerns, and for your in-depth, researched responses.

Thank You!

Btw, I've also been watching the times of your postings. You need to take a day off and get some sleep, man! We don't want you keeling over and drooling on your keyboard!

Once Again, Thank You,

Kohbal, Guild Leader, L&H Ghallanda

Fafnir_Thornbow
10-16-2007, 09:35 PM
I read the Dev Tracker nightly and I must say......

Codog Thanks for this personal post. In more months than I can remember (been here since headstart) I feel like the Dev Team is more alive and working like crazy on this game than I had dared hope. There were times I wasn't sure (it was mighty quiet)....but this post (and all your others) remind me that you guys are there giving it your all man. It instills faith in me....and from this goodwill. Goodwill will take you a long way. At least in my book.

Personally I love the game. I have played it longer than any game I have ever played in my 36 years. Trust me.....I have played a lot of games....Pong forward.

Your efforts are not unappreciated. Your frank communication here....exactly what I have been looking for from the Dev team all year. It has all the markings of sincere passion and love for the work that you are doing at Turbine on DDO.

I know that this type of communication can't be the norm as it eats into your time working on the game but it's great to see every so often. Like I said above, it breeds faith and goodwill. Players need to hear your kind of voice more often. It certainly rang true for me.

My thanks to you and yours for your efforts and sacrifices in making DDO the best game I have ever played. You suceeded. Don't let anybody tell ya anything different.

Thanks pardner!:)

Cowdenicus
10-16-2007, 10:20 PM
/awe

Keep up the great work and "Go Dog, Go!" (that's what we can print on the t-shirts for the fanclub :D)

or Code Dog Code. :eek: :D

By the way just so you know Codog, your responses in this thread were a major contributor to me reactivating my account. Just as a heads up.

Partymaker
10-16-2007, 10:39 PM
You would have tell me it would turn that way when I posted this a few weeks ago, while I was angry, and I wouldn't have believe you, no doubt...

...and as soon as I saw CODOG was replying, I felt bad for the attitude I had. Because I'm definitely not the "angry troll" type usually, but I like so much range that after 1 year, I couldn't stand these bugs any more and I went nuts :rolleyes: :eek:

After so much effort to get Turbine attention on all this in the past months without any feedback at all, I can't believe how big this post became and I'm just amazed at all the time CODOG took to satisfy all of our questions on many subjects, not only range stuff... simply a-m-a-z-i-n-g! :eek:

So in the end I'm glad I did it. Glad because it was the necessary bait to get the Hero out of his cave :p

/cheers at CODOG! :)

PS. Your wife rocks, really... :p

Codog
10-16-2007, 11:03 PM
Ok Codog,

I did some speed tests. I bought a stack of regular bolts and went to a nice secluded tavern where no server lag could bog me down and tried a few things... You are correct in that the Black Dragon Armour works with Repeaters, thank goodness! But what about Haste? I thought that was supposed to work on ranged attacks?

Without the armour on and without Haste I shot 100 bolts in 1:06 (this is with of course all my feats and BA of an 8 Fighter / 6 Rogue).

With Haste I shot 100 bolts in 1:06.

With the armour on and without Haste I shot 100 bolts in 55 seconds.

With Haste I shot 100 bolts in 55 seconds.

So clearly Haste isn't working on Heavy Repeaters. I can't use Light, so I can't declare it doesn't work on them.

Any thoughts?

Yep... haste and the armor don't stack. Both effects are on you, but one of the effects is suppressed and the other is expressed. Hmmm... I'll check with content to see if this was intentional or not.

Thanks for the test info! It was very helpful.

Codog

iamsamoth0
10-16-2007, 11:08 PM
Yep... haste and the armor don't stack. Both effects are on you, but one of the effects is suppressed and the other is expressed. Hmmm... I'll check with content to see if this was intentional or not.

Thanks for the test info! It was very helpful.

Codog

to sleep.
Tomorrow is a new day! G'nite...<shove><shove>

Codog
10-16-2007, 11:50 PM
I gave the FPS style of ranged combat a try in a PVP Arena test. Using the Capture the Flag arena of the Quick foot Hideout, I had a friend run right to left and left to right while I remained stationary and attempted to lead the target. I found that I received a To Hit Roll on only 25% of the shots fired. Assuming human error on some of those shots, that is still a dismally small number out of a stack of 100.

I tried this again while taking advantage of Shot on the Run and another stack of 100 arrows. My results changed slightly, again factoring in human error, I got a roll 17% of the time. Either my skills are way off base, or the physics detection was not running up to par.

Finally I tried these tests with the opponent auto targeted and using my personal rate of fire (not auto attack). While standing still I hit each time he switched direction at the ends (translates to roughly 14% of the time) while each shot trailed dismally behind while he was running. When I ran along with shot on the run I received a roll on 94% of the shots because I was largely next to the opponent.

Pretty much, the chances of hitting without the assistance of the system feel so dismally small that it is pretty much without point to manually control the targeting.. I don't see why we can't just change the auto targeted trajectory to fire in front (lead) as opposed to behind (trail) the target.

** Give or take 2% in the results as I left the documentation at home and I am at work right now **

Good data gathering. Thanks to your friend for helping you experiment around. I've been hopping into a few tavern brawls just using my bow and getting so slaughtered. If it were a drinking game and I had to slog one for every death or every time somebody tried hold person on me... I'd be on the floor now singing Tubthumper with a cheesy Spanish accent. (No comments from Phax please.) I've been playing and working on this game far too much. I don't tend to miss with ranged weapons much at all.

Having autocorrection on your target is going to be dodgey. Extapolating a position to fire based on interpolated positions and orientations might leave us right where we are now after me working on it for week and missing deadlines for module 6.

I'm working on a quick prototype solution for this that involves missile speeds. If I have a break through, I'll let you know.

Wish me luck,

Codog

captain1z
10-17-2007, 12:30 AM
Good luck!


and thank you for working extra hard to bring us a better play experience and just a better game overall. just to hear that you are investing some of your personal time in this is appreciated and Im pretty sure I can speak for the community as a whole.


(I would send u guys some primo coffee if you tell me where to send it)

Sevann
10-17-2007, 01:34 AM
Having autocorrection on your target is going to be dodgey. Extapolating a position to fire based on interpolated positions and orientations might leave us right where we are now after me working on it for week and missing deadlines for module 6.

I'm working on a quick prototype solution for this that involves missile speeds. If I have a break through, I'll let you know.

Wish me luck,

Codog


I just finished reading this entire thread ( because you posted so much. Thanks a million btw Codog) and I was gonna ask you that very question. Can you speed the arrow up a bit? Let us know how the test works out if you can. And good luck