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szaijan
09-25-2007, 04:20 PM
Any chance of adding reach weapons into the game in the near future?

The things that make combat in this game completely different and head and shoulders better than every other MMO out there are clipping and the need to conserve resources (i.e. hit points and spell points.)

The clipping means monsters can't simply run through us and tougher caracters can actually block their path to weaker characters. This is far superior to the aggro management model used to emulate it in other games. Many new tactical options open up, and the terrain you fight in becomes an important part of the fight.

No regen between fights means every fight is different and simply surviving a fight isn't enough... you need to defeat it without using too many resources. This allows there to be fewer fights per adventure, and for the actions taken in each fight to be much more meaningful. In other words, tactics matter.

The lack of reach weapons creates a tactical vacuum in light of the above. Being able to deliver damage while not taking hits and past the front rank of screening characters is naturally desireable. Monsters should have the ability to attack past those screening elements if they have a suitable weapon. While the AI to have MOBs use the weapons effectively may be problematic, providing the added tactical option to PC groups would be a welcome addition to an already tactically superior combat system.

Bottom line, please consider this for a future module.

Charmazal
09-25-2007, 04:32 PM
Well here's the thing:

Right now tanks can shield block a door. A caster then drops a firewall in front of those tanks and runs into the room to get everything mad at him. They follow him back, he then jumps behind the tanks. And then the mobs get aggro from the firewall, but can't reach him, so they stand in front of the tanks burning to death looking for a hole for them to get through to the caster. So long as the tanks don't attack them they just stand there and take a beating. Can you smell the hair burning?

With reachweapons the same effect could be attained. You could have a couple rogues standing behind the tanks poking away and as long as the critters couldn't get through they would just die.

I'd be for this suggestion, once they fix mob logic to give up on trying to reach the caster after a few seconds of not being able to get through the firewall. (or cloudkill, or whatever).

szaijan
09-25-2007, 06:13 PM
Agreed. Even if they can't get the MOBs to use reach weapons well, they would need to make some modifications to account for fighting against them.

As for the Firewall, they ought to treat it in the AI as a hard barrier most of the time and try to get out of it immediately when forced into as their first priority. Then they can worry about getting to their hated target, or taking cover if they can't.

MrCow
09-25-2007, 07:13 PM
As for the Firewall, they ought to treat it in the AI as a hard barrier

I can see some massive AI issues there...

I stand in a corner, cast Wall of Fire so that it locks me in. The nasties, realizing they are burning to death, move out. I gain 10 + Caster Level seconds worth of protection vs. all melee. Combine with other persistent effects and you could make something crazy mob pathing, especially in small rooms.

Other issues I see with a hard barrier AI implementation of Wall of Fire is you get a foe or group of foes into a corner, cast Wall of Fire behind them, leap out so they trap themselves, and cast another Wall of Fire into the cornered area so they take complete Wall of Fire damage but cease to move because that hard barrier doesn't allow them to escape.

By the way, this would be incredibly interesting to make barriers for archery-based rangers. ;)

lizardo666
09-27-2007, 10:17 AM
Yes the shieldwall - phalanx - whatever was used in our campaigns alot, and u needed strong fighters to keep it working.

I noticed that bull rush has been implemented as a Special Attack in ADQ1, that was one method of countering.
As well as the "knockback" ability with is in 3.5

The other was for a LIGHT armored individual with a ton of tumbling ranks - DC25 ? to tumble through an opponents square w/o an AO.

You can however go through a "friendly's" square w/o tumble.

And YES the DM after a round or so, would either start whacking the tanks, or retreat, or use a strategy (like above suggestions) to try and gain access to the squishies.

And DPS isnt the only reason for the above either, why have a cleric healing your frontline till the cows come home, after a few big heals the opponents realise that they have a more important target to deal with. And may have no direct path to them.

With the current mechanics you could have tanks not taking hits due to cleric aggro too, of course then the cleric wouldnt have 2 heal and the tanks would regain aggro ....

My 2 cents

tihocan
09-27-2007, 11:35 AM
What's a reach weapon?
Weapons already have their own (varying) reach. So for instance you can hit something farther with your big maul than with a simple dagger.

llevenbaxx
09-27-2007, 11:49 AM
What's a reach weapon?
Weapons already have their own (varying) reach. So for instance you can hit something farther with your big maul than with a simple dagger.

Normal melee weapons are supposed to have a reach of 5', so you can attack a monster in any adjacent space.

A reach weapon can attack monsters at a distance of 10'. Keep in mind though, you cannot use a reach weapon to attack anything in close(adjacent space, spiked chain being the exception).

I dont know how the mechanics work for distance in this game so I wonder if they could assign a range from 5' to 10' as opposed to 0' to X(as per weapon in DDO). It would be a cool thing though and give a new dimension to combat.

Mad_Bombardier
09-27-2007, 11:55 AM
I dont know how the mechanics work for distance in this game so I wonder if they could assign a range from 5' to 10' as opposed to 0' to X(as per weapon in DDO). It would be a cool thing though and give a new dimension to combat.I can successfully use my Greataxe on a dancing Air Elemental without getting hit with knockdown/whirlwind. I cannot hit a dancing Air Elemental with a dagger without knockdown/whirlwind. In DDO, 2H weapons have more reach than 1H weapons.

Coldin
09-27-2007, 01:22 PM
I can successfully use my Greataxe on a dancing Air Elemental without getting hit with knockdown/whirlwind. I cannot hit a dancing Air Elemental with a dagger without knockdown/whirlwind. In DDO, 2H weapons have more reach than 1H weapons.

Actually, I've hit air elementals with a dagger without getting knocked down. So it's possible, but the margin of error is much smaller.

Edit: Btw, I want polearms! :)

Drith
09-27-2007, 01:33 PM
POLEARMS for the WIN!

I WANT PALADINS TO ALL USE LANCES and get like a + 5 bonus for using lances or something so people actually use em!

llevenbaxx
09-27-2007, 01:58 PM
I can successfully use my Greataxe on a dancing Air Elemental without getting hit with knockdown/whirlwind. I cannot hit a dancing Air Elemental with a dagger without knockdown/whirlwind. In DDO, 2H weapons have more reach than 1H weapons.

Yup I know:)

I thought thats what I said. Was giving how it works in D&D first, where the range is 5'(normal) or 10'(reach). Then in DDO as X(as per weapon type in DDO).

Was more interested in how the mechanic works because they would have to create a hit "dead-zone" from the characters position(square) out to a radius of 5' to show that reach weapons cant be used to attack monsters right next to them. Sorry if I was unclear.

Or they could just cheese it and compensate by dramatically slowing down the attack rate and letting the weapon hit everything within the 10' radius. Prolly be easier but further from right. Would be interesting to see.