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lizardo666
09-24-2007, 12:41 PM
Hi, Ive been a subscriber since the beta. And I've tested a ton of arcane casters.

I shelf'd my sorc for a long time due to targetting issues, and well I thought they may have been fixed .. alas ... no

I don't even use fireball anymore, seems only the odd one lands, think if you use positional vs target it is a little more effective. Can't see how it doesn't land its AOE if the target drops, or goes around a corner. Volume at impact point should do damage !

Lightning Bolt .... most useful in PnP, useless in DDO. Was meant to be a caster's only option within melee. Connect the dots, and not harm your party members, well .... you get the point.

A very long stroke (90' ?) 5' wide, not some cheesy bolt that ends at your target, or a shorter (but still long) 10' forked bolt, both more useful than the current state ...

Next -> The 2 paths of enhancements fire & ice vs acid & lightning

Lightning is OK short of the bolt fix thats needed - mostly a carboncopy of fire spells minus a firewall type

Acid lines are completely useless. L2 spell thats a very weak DOT (only reason in D&D was to slightly mess with casters and conc checks, which last time I checked MOBS don't do)

Acid Rain L4 spell that is a very weak AOE DOT (compare it to firewall laugh yer a&& off) see above for only use (PnP)

Acid Fog L6 - OMG 2d6 per round - compare to CK (L5), heck solid fog (L4) has 100x the use vs. this

So 3 cheesy spells w/ no save, no bonus for caster levels
Screams cast from scrolls ... so why ever spec in it, or better yet why ever use it.

Answer Mod5 - fire/cold immune undead (and well blackbones everywhere else)

But with the insane HP buffs MOBS get you'll be chislin' away with thes DOTs for a good smoke break or 2 ...
and the SP costs ...

DPS vs insta kill/para/whatever is a no-brainer for SP consumption to begin with, only reason to have any DPS as an arcane is for RED mobs ....

I prob missed a few things, so plz add away fellow arcanes.
And to the Devs ... these aren't that hard 2 fix.

Peace

jaitee
09-24-2007, 12:47 PM
acid spells are a joke, but maybe they will come out with more

as for the rest i have no idea

jjflanigan
09-24-2007, 12:55 PM
I'll agree with the issues you put forth regarding lightning bolt and the acid spells. If you are wanting to go for damage there is no comparison to the fire / cold lines of spells. Sure, not as many things have resistances to the acid damage type but, when a 50% damage reduction still lets the fire based spells do more damage than the 0% damage reduction acid spells...well, there's really no reason to use the acid ones. When you get to the creatures that are completely immune to fire and cold damage you are then better off using CC and buffs for the melee to take them down as it would be insanely slow to do it with the persistant damage Acid spells.

With regards to the comment about only using DPS for red name mobs, I have to disagree. If you come across a room with 3+ MOBs at once it is much more spell point efficient to use a WoF instead of the insta kill spells. Even if not, It's fun to have someone go and gather a bunch of mobs and run them into an "ambush" with WoF, Solid Fog and a blade barrier. Just run through and jump and voila, dead mobs for a much lower cost than insta-killing them as you go along.

Missing_Minds
09-24-2007, 01:55 PM
*snickers* acid a joke.... clearly you've never seen a proper application of it. While yes, they do less damage per hit, but it can prove invaluable. Running with pugs and even guildies in quests with trolls for example. It gets very annoying for me (because I am tactical minded) to watch all of the zergers and melees get stuck against 2 or 3 trolls just because they aren't using acid or fire weapons, but relying upon pure good and vorpal. *sighs* 15 spell points later the sucker is dead because it can't regen any more. Just think of how much mana I just saved the cleric because the melees weren't using acid or fire on a troll.

I've killed off oger magi with acid arrow. guess what, they don't regain their hit points until they re appear. Scorpions. They may bug, they may go under ground, but acid keeps on burning them.

Every spell has its use and a lot of people hate certain spells. That is fine, but properly applied every spell can be a wonderful tool.

jjflanigan
09-24-2007, 02:51 PM
*snickers* acid a joke.... clearly you've never seen a proper application of it. While yes, they do less damage per hit, but it can prove invaluable. Running with pugs and even guildies in quests with trolls for example. It gets very annoying for me (because I am tactical minded) to watch all of the zergers and melees get stuck against 2 or 3 trolls just because they aren't using acid or fire weapons, but relying upon pure good and vorpal. *sighs* 15 spell points later the sucker is dead because it can't regen any more. Just think of how much mana I just saved the cleric because the melees weren't using acid or fire on a troll.

I've killed off oger magi with acid arrow. guess what, they don't regain their hit points until they re appear. Scorpions. They may bug, they may go under ground, but acid keeps on burning them.

Every spell has its use and a lot of people hate certain spells. That is fine, but properly applied every spell can be a wonderful tool.

That's all well and good and I'll concede those uses. However, in your example with trolls. If you are fighting two or three trolls, a well placed wall of fire would be MUCH more effective to kill them quickly than any of the acid spells.

The acid spells work great as "helper" damage, but not as a main source of damage.

lizardo666
09-24-2007, 03:00 PM
Most MMOs try to make kiting impossible or even bannable. I suppose you could add up all the DOT damage and it may end up doing more than ... say one scorching ray. If you have the skills to keep the mob at a kiting distance the whole time. Be one long acid arrow to reach the 12d6 no save of scorch tho.

I too concede the scorpion point, but that bug *hopefully* will be fixed soon.

Trolls - firewall all the way - they regen all but fire/acid , have 2 compare it against the same level (4) spell acid rain, as I did above, prob a 3:1 difference

muffinlad
09-24-2007, 03:10 PM
That's all well and good and I'll concede those uses. However, in your example with trolls. If you are fighting two or three trolls, a well placed wall of fire would be MUCH more effective to kill them quickly than any of the acid spells.

The acid spells work great as "helper" damage, but not as a main source of damage.


Well said.

Further, I will add that if Trolls were the MAIN enemy in this game, the points positive made about Acid spells would make sense. As it is, trolls are pretty far from the main enemy in this game, though they are a small but stable sampling of the enemies we encounter, not something you are going to "acid spec" something out to fight as a caster.

Further, the LACK of concentration rolls by enemy casters makes Acid Arrow, Burning Blood (Fire and Acid), Acid Rain of dubious use as damage spell, and Acid Fog mearly a mild upgrade to Solid Fog.

Now these spells work GREAT against players, but vers. monsters, not so much.

Lightening Bolt is a sad, sad shadow of what it should be, both in size and effect in the game.

Both need an upgrade. I look forward to seeing how they are impacted by the change in meta magic.

Regs,

muffincaster

dragnmoon
09-24-2007, 03:43 PM
You know what would fix this problem.. and make All usefule *Ie Acid/Electric/Cold & Ice*

Add the feat Energy Substitution from the Complete Arcane.

This feat allows you to change the Energy tyoe of the spell..

A fireball can become an Acid Ball, A Scorching Ray can become a Elictric Ray.. and so on and so forth.

This would make the other enhancement other then Fire/Cold Useful

herzkos
09-24-2007, 04:16 PM
/snip
Add the feat Energy Substitution from the Complete Arcane.
This feat allows you to change the Energy tyoe of the spell..
A fireball can become an Acid Ball, A Scorching Ray can become a Elictric Ray.. and so on and so forth.
This would make the other enhancement other then Fire/Cold Useful

wow .. . /signed

ErgonomicCat
09-24-2007, 04:21 PM
But with the insane HP buffs MOBS get you'll be chislin' away with thes DOTs for a good smoke break or 2 ...
and the SP costs ...

DPS vs insta kill/para/whatever is a no-brainer for SP consumption to begin with, only reason to have any DPS as an arcane is for RED mobs ....


It is a generally accepted rule among the Character Optimization boards that casters doing damage past level 5 are useless.

So it's not just DDO, it's DnD - HP, Saves and Resists scale faster than damage ever has. DDO has done some things to negate that, and make playing a Boomstick easier, and they've done a pretty good job. But overall, DPS is just not as efficient as save or lose. Even if you have to cast 3 Save or Lose spells to make it stick, you probably needed 3 damage spells to take out an equivalent CR monster anyway. And you never have your damage spell suddenly kill a mob in one shot, while your save or lose can stick the first time....

lizardo666
09-24-2007, 04:48 PM
I feel the same way, although when you add 10 mobs vs one, the DPS route can in fact be cheaper, and head towards a balanced party effort vs one-shotting everything (and having alot of party members twiddling their thumbs).

3x big AOEs to 10 mobs vs 10* (1 to 3) instas

And of course reds/purples are immune to everything except pure DPS

One mob - no question you need min 2 spells sometimes 3 to drop it (DPS style), can add metas (which for higher level spells will be cheaper shortly, **** for say L1-3 spells) ... compare to the Enervation / PK combo and you will be using less SP for the most part. Even more so on elite quests .. and it creates an aggro-free environment.

One small rant about the new meta system ...
Who would cast a spell for 10 less mana to do 150% vs 200% damage increase?

The only viable use is to stack the two which, for the most part, is a sorc tactic (not wizards who are supposed to benefit from metas more) due to SP pool

And not a tactic at all for non-dps casters

lizardo666
09-24-2007, 04:49 PM
.......

captain1z
09-24-2007, 04:59 PM
.......

happened to me also when I was refering to a well know casino dice game.


/shrug

Elthbert
09-25-2007, 12:40 AM
Hi, Ive been a subscriber since the beta. And I've tested a ton of arcane casters.

I shelf'd my sorc for a long time due to targetting issues, and well I thought they may have been fixed .. alas ... no

I don't even use fireball anymore, seems only the odd one lands, think if you use positional vs target it is a little more effective. Can't see how it doesn't land its AOE if the target drops, or goes around a corner. Volume at impact point should do damage !

Lightning Bolt .... most useful in PnP, useless in DDO. Was meant to be a caster's only option within melee. Connect the dots, and not harm your party members, well .... you get the point.

A very long stroke (90' ?) 5' wide, not some cheesy bolt that ends at your target, or a shorter (but still long) 10' forked bolt, both more useful than the current state ...

Next -> The 2 paths of enhancements fire & ice vs acid & lightning

Lightning is OK short of the bolt fix thats needed - mostly a carboncopy of fire spells minus a firewall type

Acid lines are completely useless. L2 spell thats a very weak DOT (only reason in D&D was to slightly mess with casters and conc checks, which last time I checked MOBS don't do)

Acid Rain L4 spell that is a very weak AOE DOT (compare it to firewall laugh yer a&& off) see above for only use (PnP)

Acid Fog L6 - OMG 2d6 per round - compare to CK (L5), heck solid fog (L4) has 100x the use vs. this

So 3 cheesy spells w/ no save, no bonus for caster levels
Screams cast from scrolls ... so why ever spec in it, or better yet why ever use it.

Answer Mod5 - fire/cold immune undead (and well blackbones everywhere else)

But with the insane HP buffs MOBS get you'll be chislin' away with thes DOTs for a good smoke break or 2 ...
and the SP costs ...

DPS vs insta kill/para/whatever is a no-brainer for SP consumption to begin with, only reason to have any DPS as an arcane is for RED mobs ....

I prob missed a few things, so plz add away fellow arcanes.
And to the Devs ... these aren't that hard 2 fix.

Peace



My main is a Wizard--- I agree with everything said here.
/signed

Blyte
09-25-2007, 01:36 AM
They simply need to add the feat found in the complete arcane which can change the energy type of spells.

IE, scorching ray into acid ray, nilac's cold ray into shocking ray, cone of cold into cone of acid... etc... etc...

This will of course make the spells cost more, but worthwhile in some cases... just imagine "wall of frost" in a fire based dungeon.

.. unfortunately implementing this graphically would really be a nightmare, having to program 5+ versions of each energy based spell.

Missing_Minds
09-25-2007, 07:12 AM
It is a generally accepted rule among the Character Optimization boards that casters doing damage past level 5 are useless.

*LAUGHS* WOW... Now there is something hugely wrong. A well played wizard at lvl 5 or sorc at lvl 6 can start to solo with extreme vengeance.

Useless.. *snicker* May I suggest you actually start to play an arcane for yourself and try damage output vs buffing/CC before you make such a statement.

Missing_Minds
09-25-2007, 07:21 AM
That's all well and good and I'll concede those uses. However, in your example with trolls. If you are fighting two or three trolls, a well placed wall of fire would be MUCH more effective to kill them quickly than any of the acid spells.

The acid spells work great as "helper" damage, but not as a main source of damage.

JJ, you are forgetting one very simple fact. WoF will draw agro off the melees (because typically they will work on only one) so the other two trolls will take one look at me, rage, and I'm dead.

So... a little application to stop their regen and I live, or... one WoF and my death, broken gear, clerical cursing about a suicidle caster, etc.

7 out of 10 times, the terrain isn't going to be such to where I can be out of range of the trolls to let WoF cook them so they can't hit me. Now, if the melees are blocking the path to me or the trolls can't get to me AND the trolls will be STAYING in the WoF, sure. I'll toss the WoF. It makes much better tactical sense. However, if they have the freedom to move around, why toss an area effect that will only barely touch them? If I put something on them that lingers and follows, all the better. (I love it when the cleric hits them with a greater command. I'll gladly drop a WoF right on them to let them roast. I've only ever seen about 2 clerics do this with any consistancey, however.)

Now, something I think that most of you are forgetting. Do I use these tactics at higher levels. Aka 10+. Not really. I have much better spells to use and hopefully the melees will have fire/acid weapons to use. The trick being is to adapt your tactics to the group of the moment. Using the same tactics in a group who's methodology is completely different can make for a horrid run.

llevenbaxx
09-25-2007, 07:22 AM
*LAUGHS* WOW... Now there is something hugely wrong. A well played wizard at lvl 5 or sorc at lvl 6 can start to solo with extreme vengeance.

Useless.. *snicker* May I suggest you actually start to play an arcane for yourself and try damage output vs buffing/CC before you make such a statement.

I agree, you dont even really need to be fully spec'ed for it. I have a mostly CC caster with Fire/Ice IV and with a nice potency/lore item combo you can kick out some serious damage in a pinch.

A high level caster the completely ignores damage spells is an incomplete one to be sure.

Shade
09-25-2007, 07:29 AM
Fireball can be one of the most reliable spells. Here's some tips to make it work well:
Never target a monsters in the focus orb, always use mouselook to aim your fireballs, they will connect allot more often. Press T switch.

Best way to hit things is to aim at the ground near them, this is easy to do with good jump, so load the jump spell, get featherfall, haste and greater hero and your good to go. Jump up, aim down towards where the mobs are running and fire. Make sure you have a bit of distance between you and your targets, fireballs fail at point blank range.

Lightning Bolt: I agree this one can use some work - but it can hit multiple targets reliable with some work:
Always tab target this one - but make sure you target the monsters in the back row and get your aiming reticle over some mobs inbetween you and your target. Fire it so it hits multiple targets in a line. Unfortunately it won't hit targets behind what you target, even if they were in range, so quickly tab to the back.
Manually targetting: If you need to manually target, perhaps a target out of normal tab range : Aim it allot higher then you would normally think would hit, they tend to go down in an arc. This applies to most spells but lightning bolts especially.

Lightnings good overall, ball lightning and chain lightning work great.
Acid could use some work, a good duration boost to the aoes would help allot.

jjflanigan
09-25-2007, 09:26 AM
JJ, you are forgetting one very simple fact. WoF will draw agro off the melees (because typically they will work on only one) so the other two trolls will take one look at me, rage, and I'm dead.

So... a little application to stop their regen and I live, or... one WoF and my death, broken gear, clerical cursing about a suicidle caster, etc.

7 out of 10 times, the terrain isn't going to be such to where I can be out of range of the trolls to let WoF cook them so they can't hit me. Now, if the melees are blocking the path to me or the trolls can't get to me AND the trolls will be STAYING in the WoF, sure. I'll toss the WoF. It makes much better tactical sense. However, if they have the freedom to move around, why toss an area effect that will only barely touch them? If I put something on them that lingers and follows, all the better. (I love it when the cleric hits them with a greater command. I'll gladly drop a WoF right on them to let them roast. I've only ever seen about 2 clerics do this with any consistancey, however.)

Now, something I think that most of you are forgetting. Do I use these tactics at higher levels. Aka 10+. Not really. I have much better spells to use and hopefully the melees will have fire/acid weapons to use. The trick being is to adapt your tactics to the group of the moment. Using the same tactics in a group who's methodology is completely different can make for a horrid run.

That's probably very true. My main tends to be a bit less squish due to the 2 levels of paladin I have in him. However, in my experience, Jump + Displace + Haste means you can have a WoF up and just run the MOBs ragged through the fire and get hit very rarely.

I would never say the acid spells are useless, a majority of the spells in the game have SOME uses (many of them are extremely good in very limited situations). The problem, though, comes from the fact that having some spells that are useful 5% of the time and others that are useful 90% of the time means that most players are going to go for the 90% group (i.e. Fire & Ice). While this isn't a huge issue, it does tend to detract from the "fun factor" of the game. In the majority of quests, a caster specced for hard-core Acid & Elec damage is not going to be as useful as one specced for Fire & Ice. They should be equally viable even if it is in different ways.

The reason I state they should be equally viable is that the enhancements for both lines have the same costs. The item boosts for both types are equally rare. And the spells take up the same amount of spell slots for a caster (of course, but I'm just mentioning that they are equal in cost). Because of this, the opportunity cost related to speccing Acid & Elec grossly outweighs the benefits returned (more-so for a sorcerer than for a wizard by far).

I'm not sure of a good way to solve this. Creating new spells willy-nilly would be a very bad idea (I'm not even hardcore PnP rules and I think that it's bad :) ). Equally, the feat / metamagic that would allow you to change the element type of a spell would be extremely cool, however I don' think it is something the developers would ever add in due to balance. Currently Fire & Ice are kings of DPS. Because of this many more mobs have resistance / immunity to those types of damage. If you were allowed to cast a "Wall of Acid" or "Wall of Lightning" (or, heaven forbid a "Wall of Sonic Energy") than the "balance" they have tried to reach between caster DPS and MOB hp / resistances would go completely out the window.

I'm not familiar enough with PnP rules / spells to know if there is more love for the other elements in that version of DnD but, if so, it would be great if some of that could bleed over. Adding some secondary effects that are useful in DDO would suffice, but low damage DoTs aren't really practical in DDO when each level and each module combat goes faster and faster.

bnrilfun
09-25-2007, 10:29 AM
Another great way to aim a fireball is to actually target the fighter at the front holding the mobs at bay. This way you get the spell off where it does the most good.

Lightning bolt should definately get some loving, but then again at level 14 the ball of fire should take up a very large amount of space and it doesnt.

I do like Acid arrow, as it can do a decent amount of damage and not get you aggro, and as long as the tank can last that long it definately helps.

Alavatar
09-25-2007, 11:04 AM
When were the trolls fixed? Last time I tested them they regenerated acid and fire damage.

Also, why damage them when you can Charm them and have a regenerating pet? I love going through GH and having an army of charmed trolls, minotaurs, and giants. :)

Furthermore, an Acid Spec'ed character's Acid Fog is a heck of a lot more useful then Wall of Fire simply because acid based spells are not supposed to be affected by spell resistance (if they are affected by spell resistance then Turbine sucks) and because not many things are immune to acid.

jjflanigan
09-25-2007, 11:21 AM
When were the trolls fixed? Last time I tested them they regenerated acid and fire damage.

Also, why damage them when you can Charm them and have a regenerating pet? I love going through GH and having an army of charmed trolls, minotaurs, and giants. :)

Furthermore, an Acid Spec'ed character's Acid Fog is a heck of a lot more useful then Wall of Fire simply because acid based spells are not supposed to be affected by spell resistance (if they are affected by spell resistance then Turbine sucks) and because not many things are immune to acid.

WoF is not affected by spell resistance either since it is not a target based spell effect.

You have always been able to stop a trolls regeneration with acid or fire, has worked since pre-release.

Missing_Minds
09-25-2007, 01:28 PM
When were the trolls fixed? Last time I tested them they regenerated acid and fire damage.

Acid and Fire stop their regen ability for a time. After the time is up, they start to regen as normal.

Missing_Minds
09-25-2007, 01:58 PM
a caster specced for hard-core Acid & Elec damage is not going to be as useful as one specced for Fire & Ice. They should be equally viable even if it is in different ways.

Lets do a count here off the top of my head.

Fire/Ice
1. Burnning Hands
2. Niac
* flame arrow (I'm not going to count this one)
3. Scorching Ray
4. Fireball
* Sleet Storm (no damage, not counting)
* Ice Storm (2d6 cold... why bother counting it?)
5. cone of cold
6. Delayed Blast Fireball
7. burnning Blood (is on both lists)

Lighting/Acid
1. Shocking Grasp
2. Acid Arrow
3. Lighting Bolt
4. Acid Rain
5. Acid Fog
6. Ball Lighting
7. Chain Lighting
8. Burnning Blood (on both lists)

The lists seem to be about even to me, honestly. Now, let us look at this in a different manner.

Litches's manttle (aka lvl 1-4 spells don't effect it)

Fire/Ice 2 spell
Acid/Lighting 3 spells.

No, I'd say a lighting/acid spect caster is just as effective as a fire/ice, if not more so against more bosses. The trick being is that one gets fire at a lot lower level compared to the other spells.
Also high level potency items are harder to come by compared to lower level ones.

Your standard fire/ice caster is spected for two spells typically. Fireball and Sorching ray. That is it. Scorching ray is the ONLY major damage dealer that does NOT require a relfex save. Low level, easy to spec spells.

No, I'd say they are equal honestly.


As for other spells they could pull in. Well they haven't pulled in any of the 4th lvl Orb family. And I have no idea bout eberron flavored ones.

jjflanigan
09-25-2007, 02:42 PM
We are not comparing the NUMBER of spells, we are comparing the effectiveness of the spells. (also you left off Wall of Fire).

Regardless, though, even if there were 100 acid spells it wouldn't matter. When, with VERY few exceptions, you can do damage that can be calculated as multiples of acid's damage with a fire spell, they are not equal. There is a reason the majority of players are fire / ice specced.



Your standard fire/ice caster is spected for two spells typically. Fireball and Sorching ray. That is it. Scorching ray is the ONLY major damage dealer that does NOT require a relfex save. Low level, easy to spec spells.


Umm...no. The majority of them are specced for Wall of Fire, Cone of Cold, Scorching Ray, Delayed Blast Fireball. All extremely high damage spells that are effective and useful even when things have a resistance to them.

The elemental schools are in NO way equal when it comes to DPS throughout a quest, I don't think anyone else would ever say they were. You state that they are more useful on more bosses? List off all of the bosses that are immune to Wall of Fire...then list off all of the ones that are not, I can pretty much guarantee the list of "not immune" will be WELL over double. Not to mention the fact that speccing your character for 1 fight out of 40+ in a quest is a bit short-sighted.

I'm fully open to valid arguments about the usefulness of acid / lightning (as evidenced by the points I conceded earlier). But to come along and say "Because they have the same number of spells and a couple bosses are immune to fire, they are equal" is like saying a fighter dual wielding clubs is as effective as one dual wielding scimitars since they both have two weapons

Mad_Bombardier
09-25-2007, 03:03 PM
Lets do a count here off the top of my head.

Fire/Ice
1. Burning Hands = 20
2. Niac's = 50
3. Scorching Ray = 72 (24x3)
4. Fireball = 60
5. Wall of Fire = 312 Normal & 624 to Undead (with full DoT)
6. Cone of Cold = 84*
7. Otiluke's Freezing Sphere = 84*
8. Delayed Blast Fireball = 84*
9. Burning Blood (is on both lists) = 114* fire dmg (with full DoT)

Lighting/Acid
1. Shocking Grasp = 30
2. Acid Arrow = 104 (with full DoT)
3. Lighting Bolt = 60
4. Acid Rain = 60 (with full DoT)
5. Acid Fog = 216 (with full DoT)
6. Ball Lighting = 84*
7. Chain Lighting = 84*
8. Burning Blood (on both lists) = 114* acid dmg (with full DoT)Nice list. Now look at the max damage* each (*at level 14).

The benefit of Acid spells is DoT; you can cast once and add steady damage. The big letdown of Acid spells is low damage over that time. Due to always rounding down, +% has less effect on low dmg spells, even if the total DoT is better. Eg., 8 acid damage +10% = 8.8 which rounds to 8 damage. So, in some cases you never see an increase. :(

ErgonomicCat
09-25-2007, 03:07 PM
I agree, you dont even really need to be fully spec'ed for it. I have a mostly CC caster with Fire/Ice IV and with a nice potency/lore item combo you can kick out some serious damage in a pinch.

A high level caster the completely ignores damage spells is an incomplete one to be sure.

Sorry - left off a very important phrase there - "In the PnP game"

In DDO, it's *far* more viable due to the enhancement system.

Heck, there are a lot things that are far more viable in DDO than in PnP due to the enhancement system (In PnP, greataxes are what you use only if you feel sorry for your d12, for instance.)

Missing_Minds
09-25-2007, 03:35 PM
We are not comparing the NUMBER of spells, we are comparing the effectiveness of the spells. (also you left off Wall of Fire).


I knew I forgot one in there. And from you last post, it seemed to me that you started comparing number for damage for effectiveness. Hence the direction I went there. Obviously I didn't understand your point correctly. Because of this I'm not going to respond back to a lot of the stuff because I do agree with you.


List off all of the bosses that are immune to Wall of Fire...then list off all of the ones that are not, I can pretty much guarantee the list of "not immune" will be WELL over double. Not to mention the fact that speccing your character for 1 fight out of 40+ in a quest is a bit short-sighted.

JJ, the immune statement there was a bit ridiculous to even bother saying. Of course it is going to be well over double. Any low level quest is not going to have an end boss that is immune to fire damage. Heck, the only low level boss i can think of that is immune is the fire ele in the house K quest... Ruined Halls?



I'm fully open to valid arguments about the usefulness of acid / lightning (as evidenced by the points I conceded earlier). But to come along and say "Because they have the same number of spells and a couple bosses are immune to fire, they are equal" is like saying a fighter dual wielding clubs is as effective as one dual wielding scimitars since they both have two weapons

As I stated, I didn't follow the direction you were going so I miss understood. (work has also soiled my mood so i'm doing my best not to be snide. If some of what I post comes across as such, I do apologize.)

I'm going to take a few steps back here. Are acid spells weak compared to fire or cold for purpose of DPS. Yes, but they have been that way in PnP as well. It is to be expected. Are the as uttlerly worthless junk that the OP protrays them as? Certainly not.

Does Wall of Fire have an unfair advantage that the acid arrow/rain do not have? Yes. The spell can only be applied to a target once. Because of coding, WoF can be cast multiple times and hit a mob that many times over. Acid arrow/rain can only be applied once. Reapplication only resets the timer. I've never understood why the heck they programed that so short sightedly. Are the Devs stating that I keep hitting the Troll in the same pinky finger?

Does this same advantage apply to acid fog? honestly, I don't know. I need to try it out to find out.

jjflanigan
09-25-2007, 04:31 PM
Does this same advantage apply to acid fog? honestly, I don't know. I need to try it out to find out.

Yes it does, unfortunately (at least it did last time I tried).

My main point is just that, with the exception of very specific circumstances, you are always better off being fire/ice specced versus acid/elec specced. Sure, the acid and elec spells have their uses but, with the exception of complete immunities, you are still almost always better off going fire/ice and just brute forcing them down.

lizardo666
09-27-2007, 09:45 AM
I have tried to almost exclusively use lightning bolt, and after a week I picked back up fireball. Guess once I get another 5th level spell I can trade it in and grab ball lightning.

Ive had tremendous use of firewall (with metas its nuts), but I think, in the later stages that Im getting to, it is an aggro nightmare ... if you cant use a shieldwall tactic its real hard on your tanks and healers.

I took CK as my 1st L5 spell and feel it may be of way more use to dice a ton of con off (fort saves too for spells) and the aggro seems minimal (tank can whack em once and they get their attention) - then I can swap FW for say stoneyskin or something cuz Im so squishy

And of course stop having all the enhancements and truly spec .. seems once u hit 10 even if all u take are SP / Cha / crit & damage Enh. you run outta APs unless u start to spec.

I do have 3 weapon sets to facilitate this as well
(sup lore / sup light III) ,(sup fire lore / greater pot V)

(Illusion focus of spell pene IV / stack o enervation scrolls)
PK anyone lol

Think set #3 would rock with a CK / Mindfog'd battlefield
Lowers will by 10 and fort by 1-2 per tick

Has anyone tested in PvP (or PvE) potency items with say Ray of Enfeeblement, CK, etc ?

Deragoth
09-27-2007, 10:09 AM
To the OP: I agree, there are some notable differences between the elemental damage schools. Fire/Ice is by far the strongest... Although Chain Lightning is pretty awesome when it crits, and so is Acid Fog for that matter.


It is a generally accepted rule among the Character Optimization boards that casters doing damage past level 5 are useless.


Yeah, but that's a poorly rationalized view, especially considering the metamagic changes happening today.


And of course reds/purples are immune to everything except pure DPS

Not true. Try Waves of Exhuastion, ray of Enfeeblement, ray of Exhaustion, or Curse. These are sure to make your red/purple encounter much easier.


Has anyone tested in PvP (or PvE) potency items with say Ray of Enfeeblement, CK, etc ?

No effect.

MrCow
09-27-2007, 10:38 AM
Not true. Try Waves of Exhuastion, ray of Enfeeblement, ray of Exhaustion, or Curse. These are sure to make your red/purple encounter much easier.

And lets not forget grease!

Skaves
09-27-2007, 03:41 PM
My wife has a level 13 wizard that swears by Acid Cloud, last time I asked why she didn't use WoF I got this:

1: Acid Cloud has a larger area of effect.
2: Acid Cloud has the same slowing effect as Solid Fog withough having to cast another 4th level spell. This way you spend less SP and don't risk dying to the firewall dance.
3: Acid effects just about everything in the game. (There are a few exceptions, most notably oozes... and we know how dangerous they are...)
4: WoF doesn't last as long as Acid Cloud
5: Ever price a superior Fire Lore Scepter vs a Superior Acid Lore?
6: Having the party shout, "Drop Fire" is not as fun as, "Drop Acid!"
7: Her Warforge is green skinned.

Seneca_Windforge
09-27-2007, 06:30 PM
Most MMOs try to make kiting impossible or even bannable. I suppose you could add up all the DOT damage and it may end up doing more than ... say one scorching ray. If you have the skills to keep the mob at a kiting distance the whole time. Be one long acid arrow to reach the 12d6 no save of scorch tho.

I too concede the scorpion point, but that bug *hopefully* will be fixed soon.

Trolls - firewall all the way - they regen all but fire/acid , have 2 compare it against the same level (4) spell acid rain, as I did above, prob a 3:1 difference

Troll regen doesn't exactly work that way in DDO.

Basically, if they are hit with any fire or acid damage, their regeneration completely stops for a short time (examine them after hitting them with fire/acid, and you'll see an effect called "Vulnerable" on them). However, if you leave them alone long enough, their Vulnerable state will wear off and they will begin regenerating again back to full, even if all of their damage was from fire/acid.

Fire/Acid Guard armor works great against them, since any fire/acid damage at all halts their regeneration for a while. However, in terms of spells, you are almost always better off with fire against them.

For that matter, even a 1st level wand of Burning Hands can help immensely if your melee's have no fire or acid of their own.