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swmarion
09-24-2007, 12:11 PM
I am wanting to make a full on enchanment bard.So it is very hard to resist what i cast at ya.Mainly spells like hypno and things like that.Its going to be a Drow and i was going for 20char-12intl and 12con.But i am still not sure what i need.plz help

EinarMal
09-24-2007, 12:30 PM
Well, if you want to maximze CC casting as a Bard you want to have the spellsinger enhancement and probably the spell penetration ones as well as maximum charisma and all level ups into charisma.

For feats I would suggest

SF Enchantment
GSF Enchantment
Heighten
Mental Toughness
Spell Penetration

That is for about the maximum CC casting approach, personally I would just use enhancements and an item for spell penetration and choose SF UMD or Extend instead of that feat. But the above would be the best min/max CC caster that you could make as a Bard.

TEK
09-24-2007, 05:49 PM
Well, if you want to maximze CC casting as a Bard you want to have the spellsinger enhancement and probably the spell penetration ones as well as maximum charisma and all level ups into charisma.

For feats I would suggest

SF Enchantment
GSF Enchantment
Heighten
Mental Toughness
Spell Penetration

That is for about the maximum CC casting approach, personally I would just use enhancements and an item for spell penetration and choose SF UMD or Extend instead of that feat. But the above would be the best min/max CC caster that you could make as a Bard.

not necessarily. a spellsinger gets you a +1 dc to spells yes, but your enchanments are all will based. so u could also take a virtuoso and use their song to give them a -2 to will saves even if some yahoo decides he wants to firewall everything AFTER u tell him that ur gonna fascinate. plus u'll get 3 extra songs and longer buffs :)

aslo note that currently the spellsong trance that spellsingers get can be dispelled :(, while the enthrall cant since they cant move if they're fascinated lol.

EinarMal
09-24-2007, 06:46 PM
not necessarily. a spellsinger gets you a +1 dc to spells yes, but your enchanments are all will based. so u could also take a virtuoso and use their song to give them a -2 to will saves even if some yahoo decides he wants to firewall everything AFTER u tell him that ur gonna fascinate. plus u'll get 3 extra songs and longer buffs :)

aslo note that currently the spellsong trance that spellsingers get can be dispelled :(, while the enthrall cant since they cant move if they're fascinated lol.

Your leaving out +100 spell points and +2 UMD in addition to the +1 DC and 10% spell reduction cost. I would never recommend virtuoso, it is not very good. Most pure Bards do not need more than 14 songs per shrine and it takes too long to first fascinate then reduce saves of mobs. In most groups they would all be dead before you even finish the save debuff song.

Plus to me +1 DC on every spell you cast is worth more than a situational -2 to will saves on some fraction of the time you are casting spells.

Zenako
09-25-2007, 10:47 AM
Well I have a Drow Spellsinger with 18 songs per shirne and I find I can often get most of them used during the quest. I tend to drop them 3 at a time for buffing, then drop another Spell Song when the first runs out. With 6+ minutes on the normal songs and 3 ish on the Spell song, I can cover just song buffing for about 30 minutes of game time. I also try to keep a few songs in reserve for emergency crowd control if things go awry. (Have normal Fascinate, Song of the Dead and Song of the Makers so all bases pretty much covered.)

I agree that the general across the board +1 from Spellsinger seems to be more worthwhile.

nbhs275
09-25-2007, 11:05 AM
only thing about an enchantment bard your gunna feel very very left out in all raids ands most end bosses.

Build for balance, and you'll be much better off. Lots of enchantment focus is ok, but you need atleast 1 or 2 other options to use when that doesnt work.

EinarMal
09-25-2007, 11:38 AM
only thing about an enchantment bard your gunna feel very very left out in all raids ands most end bosses.

Build for balance, and you'll be much better off. Lots of enchantment focus is ok, but you need atleast 1 or 2 other options to use when that doesnt work.

Yeah the best bet for a caster Bard like this is backup healing and buffing. You can still max out song enhancements and pick up at least a couple levels of healing bonus. They will have a lot of spell points for a Bard with spellsinger, high charisma and probably MT. Also, UMD will be high enough to probably use heal scrolls without little or no fail.

So when you can't use CC spells on anything you can at least help to heal and keep the group buffed/hasted. The other option is of course to work in some way of attacking directly.

If you go with more dex and less int you could spend a feat on a repeater and find a good de-buff/stat damage/or effect one and use that pretty easily or just use a shortbow with some sort of nice effect. It doesn't sound like they really want to melee any.

swmarion
09-25-2007, 12:12 PM
Also,what do i need to make my enchanment spells harder to resist?

Mad_Bombardier
09-25-2007, 12:34 PM
Also,what do i need to make my enchanment spells harder to resist?Answered in reply #1.


Well, if you want to maximize CC casting as a Bard you want to have the spellsinger enhancement and probably the spell penetration ones as well as maximum charisma and all level ups into charisma.

SF Enchantment
GSF Enchantment
Heighten
Spell PenetrationThe only thing to add is an Enchantment Focus item (scepter/weapon, bracers, or named cloak/goggles).

TEK
09-25-2007, 04:35 PM
Your leaving out +100 spell points and +2 UMD in addition to the +1 DC and 10% spell reduction cost. I would never recommend virtuoso, it is not very good. Most pure Bards do not need more than 14 songs per shrine and it takes too long to first fascinate then reduce saves of mobs. In most groups they would all be dead before you even finish the save debuff song.

Plus to me +1 DC on every spell you cast is worth more than a situational -2 to will saves on some fraction of the time you are casting spells.

you're right i am leaving it out because it has nothing to do with my point. i never tried to say spellsinger is bad. i have 2 bards and one IS a spellsinger, while the other is virtuoso. they're both good IMO

-2 to will saves are not situational if damn near all your spells require a will save (my point) which would mean that the -2 would be higher than +1 dc. fascinate is the best cc in the game with no saves and no spell resistance so with the virtuoso's enthrall you can add more insult to injury with a negative 2 to will right before the other casters start pking or hold etc.

all i was doing was pointing out the usefulness of the virtuoso for what the OP wanted to accomplish. personally bothe spellsinger or virtuoso would work, but i wanted him to see all the options an i didnt feel that i needed to show him spellsinger since you already took care of that :D

EinarMal
09-25-2007, 06:28 PM
you're right i am leaving it out because it has nothing to do with my point. i never tried to say spellsinger is bad. i have 2 bards and one IS a spellsinger, while the other is virtuoso. they're both good IMO

-2 to will saves are not situational if damn near all your spells require a will save (my point) which would mean that the -2 would be higher than +1 dc. fascinate is the best cc in the game with no saves and no spell resistance so with the virtuoso's enthrall you can add more insult to injury with a negative 2 to will right before the other casters start pking or hold etc.

all i was doing was pointing out the usefulness of the virtuoso for what the OP wanted to accomplish. personally bothe spellsinger or virtuoso would work, but i wanted him to see all the options an i didnt feel that i needed to show him spellsinger since you already took care of that :D

It's situational because in many groups you don't even need to fascinate things they just die. Consider all the CC spells that you cast what % of those are done after you fascinate and enthrall everything. I doubt it is even 30% of the time you actually play like that. So +1 DC 100% of the time versus -2 will save 30% of the time if that. For a CC focused Bard spellsinger is by far the better choice it is not even close.

markymarksta
09-25-2007, 06:29 PM
Hi, I have a enchanter bard with 34 CHA, who swings a sword.

On top of the feats suggested above and spellsinger song, the best spell to use to help your spells to be resisted is mind fog (-10 to will saves), which is a lvl 13 spell.

As for being left out of raids? I tend only to run the stormreaver at the moment - and the ability to cast dancing ball, heal and buff casters costing them 10% less in spell points makes you a worthwhile adition to your party and guild.

Have fun playing.

TEK
09-26-2007, 07:11 AM
It's situational because in many groups you don't even need to fascinate things they just die. Consider all the CC spells that you cast what % of those are done after you fascinate and enthrall everything. I doubt it is even 30% of the time you actually play like that. So +1 DC 100% of the time versus -2 will save 30% of the time if that. For a CC focused Bard spellsinger is by far the better choice it is not even close.

again ur trying to compare the two. good for you im glad you think spellsinger is better. i actually agree that it is, but for different reasons though.

im only stating the STRENGTHS of the virtuoso for the OP so he/she can get all his/her options. IT doesnt matter how you or I play, what matters is how the OP WANTS to play his/her toon.

oh and FYI i use fascinate alot more than 30% especially since the -2 works even if it's broken and i combo it with the fear spell since it doesnt break the fascinate. it's a mana saver since i technically casted one spell once. After that i can just beat on them melee style without them hitting me or my party members back.

EinarMal
09-26-2007, 07:59 AM
again ur trying to compare the two. good for you im glad you think spellsinger is better. i actually agree that it is, but for different reasons though.

im only stating the STRENGTHS of the virtuoso for the OP so he/she can get all his/her options. IT doesnt matter how you or I play, what matters is how the OP WANTS to play his/her toon.

oh and FYI i use fascinate alot more than 30% especially since the -2 works even if it's broken and i combo it with the fear spell since it doesnt break the fascinate. it's a mana saver since i technically casted one spell once. After that i can just beat on them melee style without them hitting me or my party members back.

He asked how to make the best CC enchantment caster Bard possible and that is by taking the spellsinger enhancement the end. Fascinating a pack and using fear does not require virtuoso. I am sorry but a few extra songs and a -2 will reduction song isn't even as useful as 100 spell points if that is all spellsinger did it would still be better.

EinarMal
09-26-2007, 08:23 AM
again ur trying to compare the two. good for you im glad you think spellsinger is better. i actually agree that it is, but for different reasons though.


You agree that it is better, of course I am comparing the two how else do you decide how to make the best possible CC enchantement casting Bard?

You are just confusing him by arguing for an enhancement that you yourself admit is not the best choice. No one, that has played the game would take virtuoso over spellsinger when making a CC enchantment focused Bard.

Aeneas
09-26-2007, 02:55 PM
go get your dreamspitter, gives +2 to enchantment dc's.

TEK
09-26-2007, 04:50 PM
You agree that it is better,
yup i did, and my previous post also said i agreed for different reasons


of course I am comparing the two how else do you decide how to make the best possible CC enchantement casting Bard?

by comparing it to what you want and how you wanna play.


You are just confusing him by arguing for an enhancement that you yourself admit is not the best choice. No one, that has played the game would take virtuoso over spellsinger when making a CC enchantment focused Bard.

im not arguing anything, i stated my opinion and attempted to clarify my view further after i thought you might have misunderstood the point i was trying to make, but you seem to be having the world of fun though so feel free to be as black and white and you want. I could use a little entertainment every now and again :D

TEK
09-26-2007, 04:54 PM
Fascinating a pack and using fear does not require virtuoso.

never said it was. you should know that since you're quoting me all the time. i stated that i use fascinate more than your quoted 30% and then further explained one of the things i use it for in an attempt to show how USEFUL the virtuoso can be. nothing more

EinarMal
09-26-2007, 08:14 PM
never said it was. you should know that since you're quoting me all the time. i stated that i use fascinate more than your quoted 30% and then further explained one of the things i use it for in an attempt to show how USEFUL the virtuoso can be. nothing more

Virtuoso isn't even worth 4 AP's and other requirements even if it were the only choice. About the only thing it is good for is getting song of the dead earlier and then dropping it at level 10. I suppose if you go the cheapest route it costs 10 AP so you might as well do that instead of extra song IV. I still think spellsinger is better for almost any Bard than virtuoso. I can't really think of any build that would be better as a virtuoso versus a spellsinger or warchanter.

Again, maybe for levels 6-10 go virtuoso then switch to spellsinger, but that is about it.

TEK
09-26-2007, 09:23 PM
Virtuoso isn't even worth 4 AP's and other requirements even if it were the only choice. I can't really think of any build that would be better as a virtuoso versus a spellsinger or warchanter.


yeah i kinda gathered that from ur first post;) :) :p :D

EinarMal
09-27-2007, 09:56 AM
yeah i kinda gathered that from ur first post;) :) :p :D

You know what would make it a lot better, if we had a lot more cool effects and songs that you could use. Then I can see using all those extra songs and really maxing out the singing of the Bard and using it all the time. A normal Bard with no enhancements (pure) has 14 songs, virtuoso gives you 3 more and you need at least extra song II so that would give you 19 songs at level 14. If you had more ways to use those that would be pretty cool. As it is now I just don't think most Bards use 19 songs per shrine.

TEK
09-27-2007, 10:05 PM
You know what would make it a lot better, if we had a lot more cool effects and songs that you could use. Then I can see using all those extra songs and really maxing out the singing of the Bard and using it all the time. A normal Bard with no enhancements (pure) has 14 songs, virtuoso gives you 3 more and you need at least extra song II so that would give you 19 songs at level 14. If you had more ways to use those that would be pretty cool. As it is now I just don't think most Bards use 19 songs per shrine.

heck yeah it would.

now we're starting to see a little eye to eye. you are right im sure. i mean not even myself go through all my songs (on average) before coming to a shrine, but i'd also rather have more songs and not need them than not have enough when it's needed.

songs for me are a mana saver which why fascinate is the best cc to me. that combo with fear that i mentioned is a really good example because all bards can do it but the virtuoso does it the best because of that -2 to will. there is only 2 spells off the top of my head that requires a fort save and thats sound burst and blindness. but everything else is will and it's not broken if the fascinate is broken.

this, IMO, sets up alot of combo potential between u and ur party in elite settings. this to me is one of the main strengths of a virtuoso because his songs are powered up a bit alowing more sp to go elsewhere(healing, buffing, etc).

yes the spellsinger is badass and yes i claimed that the spellsinger is better by comparison, but my reasons for that was purely different than urs. both the spellsinger and the virtuoso can do slightly different things than each other and it is when u play upon those differences you start to see strength and potential.

whats even better is that they're both enhancements so u can always swap out after a while :)