Critique Warchanter build...

[NightbirdX]

Hey guys, I am looking to build a bard. I was thinking more of a melee bard. But, I want to start with a 18 Cha for the SP and the Spell DC's. I want to be Str Based, have some into Int for skills, and some into Con so I am not so squishy.

This is what I have come up with, please critique...


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Sairyns the Muse
Level 14 True Neutral Drow Female
(14 Bard)
Hit Points: 118
Spell Points: 789
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 5
Reflex: 11
Will: 8

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Strength 13 14 14
Dexterity 12 13 14
Constitution 11 12 12
Intelligence 16 16 16
Wisdom 8 8 8
Charisma 18 23 26

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 14

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Balance 3 4 4
Bluff 6 23 23
Concentration 5 18 18
Diplomacy 8 25 25
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle 8 25 25
Heal -1 -1 -1
Hide 1 2 2
Intimidate 4 8 8
Jump 6 19 19
Listen -1 -1 1
Move Silently 5 19 19
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform 8 25 25
Repair 3 3 3
Search 3 3 5
Spot -1 -1 1
Swim 2 2 2
Tumble 5 19 19
Use Magic Device 8 25 25

Level 1 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Bluff (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Perform (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell

Level 2 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 9 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness

Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness

Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Warchanter I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music IV
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I

[Lifespawn]

i'd take 3 off int and put them in con and use an int tome at lvl 1

[CSFurious]

first, what are the spell points for as you are a warchanter, it seems like overkill, and reminds me of a dwarf with 500 hitpoints, i.e., too much

second, i do not understand why you would not want to take a level of fighter or 2 for the bonus feats, i do not believe that you would be sad ending up 12bard/2fighter

peace

[geezee]

Probably wont be very effective as it is. If you want to be STR-based, you will need to invest in STR.

[sigtrent]

Are you making a warchanter to ehance your own fighting or that of others?

This seems to be a buffing warchanter dedicated to a support role, something you don't see much. As a combatant it is a bit less than it can be. You have quite a high inteligence for a combat focused bard, one of the things that makes me thing combat focus wasn't what you were going for.

[skraus1]

As a warchanter, you must have powerattack, so if you're planning on being melee speced then plan on USING it. For that, you need martial weapon profeciencies, so 1 level of fighter is a good thing because it gives you this AND a free feat. This will also still give you access to all important song improving enhancements.

You seem to be a casting bard with improved inspire courage through warchanger, which is fine, but quite unusual.

If I were you, I'd lower my int to 13 or 11, use a tome at level 1. Unless you're going rogue, you should have more than enough skill points.

Drop dex down unless you're planning on twfing or using ranged, because your ac is probably going to suck anyways and you should have displacement up.

Also, unless you really want to be a casting bard and not a melee bard, then I would drop my cha to 16 or 17.

Add those points into your str and con.

Basically dps and hp > AC, especially low ACs.

You can drop IMT and MT for dps or casting feats if you desire.

In my experience, good bard enhancements are expensive, so you will either be able to get your casting superb or your songs superb, but not both. A warchanter, unlike spellsingers, are natural song bards + DPS, so I would keep that in mind when you're building them. I would really recommend you make sure your inspire courage is always maxed out, which allows you to use powerattack to even greater effect.

Also drop your extra song enhancements, they really aren't worth it after the first one, if even that.

[NightbirdX]

I appreciate all of your guys input. I don't have a lot of experience playing a bard, so I appreciate the help. I guess my biggest concern is that I want to have some sort of self defense mechanism. I played a bard before that really didn't have any kind of weapon use and it really sucked. I have a level 14 heal bot also, so I am not really looking to go the complete casting route. I guess I am trying to put the best of both worlds into one build which is, I guess, proving to be woefully inept. If anyone of you guys could come up with stat numbers to give an example I would really appreciate it.

[NightbirdX]

I was doin some thinkin, here is what I have come up with...


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 14 Neutral Good Drow Male
(1 Fighter \ 13 Bard)
Hit Points: 157
Spell Points: 584
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 9
Will: 7

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Strength 15 16 16
Dexterity 10 10 12
Constitution 13 14 14
Intelligence 16 16 16
Wisdom 8 8 8
Charisma 16 21 24

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 14

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Balance 4 12 12
Bluff 7 24 24
Concentration 6 19 19
Diplomacy 7 24 24
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle 7 24 24
Heal -1 -1 -1
Hide 0 1 1
Intimidate 3 7 7
Jump 7 20 20
Listen -1 -1 1
Move Silently 0 1 1
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform 7 24 24
Repair 3 3 3
Search 3 3 5
Spot -1 -1 1
Swim 3 3 3
Tumble 4 18 20
Use Magic Device 7 24 24

Level 1 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Bluff (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Perform (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Spell (1): Hypnotism

Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Spell (1): Focusing Chant

Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Otto's Resistable Dance

Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Hypnotic Pattern
Spell (2): Heroism

Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Spell (1): Detect Secret Doors
Spell (2): Blur

Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Glitterdust
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (3): Good Hope

Level 9 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Spell (3): Displacement

Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Dispel Magic
Spell (4): Hold Monster
Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing

Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Spell (4): Break Enchantment

Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Dimension Door
Spell (5): Greater Heroism
Spell (5): Mass Suggestion
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Warchanter I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Bard Tumble I
Enhancement: Bard Tumble II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music IV
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I

[geezee]

The high INT is killing this build. If you never made a bard before, trust me bluff and tumble are useless. Diplomacy isnt so hot either. With a decent CHA and diplomacy item (whatever it's called), that will be good enough if you really are set on using diplomacy. If you absolutely have to have enough tumble to do back flips, the tradeoff is having an effective melee character.

The bard is too tight on ability scores to afford useless skills. Dont confuse bard with rogue.

So do you want 16 INT or do you want to be good in combat? Unless youre going for rogue skills, high INT is considered gimp on a bard by most people.

I have posted some very good battle bard builds on this board. So has Einer Mal, a page or 2 back. Theres also a very nice WF build which is pure bard, and some other good ones too. Take a look at what the experienced players have come up with.

[NightbirdX]

Thanks, Geezee, I will check some of the others out. I have looked at a few, but they haven't really filled what I am looking for. I thought Bluff, Diplom and Tumble were good to have, I will reconsider lowering Int. What stats would you recommend that I put the extra points into?

[~Jules921]

I've get a battle-bard that is coming up ok - I've got an open thread looking for critiques - so far not many since I made some adjustments. Below are a couple of links that follow my thinking process and has my latest stats.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=122462
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=121864
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=120763

Its really hard to let go int and mental toughness - but martial /battle builds have to do this. My build is TWF and she is really fun to play - sneakie sneakie - fascinate/hypnotize then kill kill kill.

Jules

[geezee]

The way the system is set up, as a bard you can choose one thing to focus on besides buffing. You can choose melee, or crowd control, or neither, or something else. You cant have everything. If you want to do something well, you have to decide what that's going to be. And focus on it at creation and throughout your whole career. If you want to make a character who is ok at melee and crowd control, but cant do either one in the end game, you can do that too.

In order to make a warchanter, you need to spend 2 of your precious feats on fighting. This is why nearly all good warchanters can fight themselves. There's a big synergy between warchanter and melee combat. If you wanted to be different, you could make a character who spends 2 feats on warchanter and focuses entirely on crowd control. But you would probably benefit more by going spellsinger, since that helps your cc spells.

There's a thread on this page called The Icy Kind, about my STR-based warchanter, Geezer. He's level 10 so far and extremely effective. He can usually lead the kill count when I feel like it. His CHA is 22 at level 10, and by level 14, his CHA will be 26-28 depending which tome I use. When it comes to casting cc spells, that's pretty damned good for a guy who's also an animal in combat and has the best buffs in the game. If that character is lacking anything you're looking for, then you probably dont want a warchanter.

There are a lot of variations of warchanter, and they tend to be very powerful characters, if built properly. As a warchanter you need STR, CON, and CHA, pretty much in that order. CON and CHA are almost equally useful. If youre going TWF, which is great for a warchanter because each hand gets full benefit from your buffs, then you will need some DEX too.

Have fun.

[skraus1]

The previous posters have given you a lot of good advice. Specialization is the key, with most builds having a few secondary abilites or strengths.

For example:
Geezee's Icy Kind Build is DPS + Crowd control build- which is a very good, classic warchanter build that has a typical bard feel to it from what I understand

My Zhaffy Build is a DPS+hp+saves+evasion+Rogue skills- which is a bard batman build that feels like a self buffing DPS fighter.

There are many other good builds out there. It really depends on the specializations you want and the feel you want. Everything however also has drawbacks.