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Perryc
09-22-2007, 02:31 PM
The following is an excerpt from a build I authored on ddo.tentonhammer.com a couple of months ago. The full build can be seen at http://ddo.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=530. I've enjoyed success with this build, but am always looking for improvements. Any suggestions?

Race: Halfling
Class: Ranger 6 / Rogue 5 / Paladin 3
Alignment: Lawful Good


Starting Abilities:
28-pt Final
Strength: 14 24*
Dexterity: 12 20*
Constitution: 12 16*
Intelligence: 12 16*
Wisdom: 10 14*
Charisma: 14 20*


Hit Points: 152 at Level 14
Saves: Fort 24* / Ref 31* / Will 18*
BAB: 13


Class/Racial Features:
Small size: +1 AC / +1 attack
Special abilities: +1 to all saving throws


Feats (in the order selected):
Skill Focus, UMD
Power Attack
Two-Handed Fighting
Improved Critical, Any
Improved Two-Handed Fighting


Skills:
Balance +14
Disable Device +22
Haggle +14
Jump +17
Open Locks +23
Search +20
Use Magical Device +28*

Enhancements:
Follower of Sovereign Host
Paladin Charisma 1
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy 1
Paladin Resistance of Good 1
Paladin Bulwark of Good 1
Halfling Dexterity 2
Rogue Disable Device 2
Rogue Improved Trap Search 2
Rogue Sneak Attack Training 2
Ranger Skill Boost 2
Ranger Search 2
Ranger Dexterity 2
Halfling Luck 3
Halfling Cunning 3

Gear:
+5 Strength item
+4 Dexterity item
+4 Constitution item
+4 Intelligence item
+4 Wisdom item
+5 Charisma item
Shrunken Head (Cult of the Six series, min level 7, +3 Resistance)
Trapblast Goggles (Shan To Kor series, +4 Reflex Save)
Golden Cartouche (Delera’s series, min level 7, +1 Intelligence, +3 Use Magic Device)


Note: Items with and asterisk (*) include bonuses from items from the gear listed above.

Perryc
09-25-2007, 09:55 PM
Ok, I see several folks looking at this post, but does noone have an opinion one way or another? What is good about this build, what is not? What could be better? I know this build is not going to own the kill count, but it can get the job done.

Soul-Shaker
09-26-2007, 03:59 AM
OK Ill be the first to comment. sorry that its mostly negative

1st, 2HF on a ranger is just a waste. If you factor out glancing, TWF can get double buff from things like elf/drow rapier/ls/ss buffs, bard buffs, fav enemy dmg. ie a plain ss in the hands of a drow with +2tohit/+2dmg enahancements = 2d6 +4 dmg +1xstr +.5xstr vs a grtsword 2d6 +1.5 str, both in 1 swing animation.

2nd, all those rog lvls giving you sneak dmg will drop your overall dps using 2HF style. You will have a larger number tohit with 2hander thus making you chances of pulling aggro higher to lose future sneak attacks. Also you cant get sneak dmg on glancing blows so you might as well twf for more attacks that can do sneak dmg.

3rd, 5 rog nets you nothing special and limits your special abilities of a ranger such as increasing barkskin ac, resists, fort save, favorite enemy, dex 3 enhancement. 1 rog would open the rog skills for you and ranger skill points can fill in rog skills with decent starting int.

CSFurious
09-26-2007, 10:38 AM
you asked for criticism

first, rangers get two-weapon fighting feats free for a reason

second, ranger 8 is when you get barkskin which is a must have in my opinion

third, i think 3 different classes is too much multi-classing

fourth, drop the pallie levels, & decide if you want to be a pure ranger, a ranger/fighter, or a ranger/rogue

fifth, never roll this build:D

ErgonomicCat
09-26-2007, 11:59 AM
What's the goal of the build?

It seems to be a relatively solo/survivability-focused build to me. In that aspect, it would likely do a pretty good job. It's not the optimized, be all end all, but it will, as you said, get the job done.

I do agree with Soul-Shaker in that your THF and your Sneak damage will often be at odds with each other. For a secondary DPS'er, though, it won't be an issue. Are the rogue levels there purely for sneak attack, or do you plan to be the "We can't find a rogue, may you can do it" guy?

ErgonomicCat
09-26-2007, 12:03 PM
you asked for criticism
first, rangers get two-weapon fighting feats free for a reason


Eh. It's an option, sure, but TWF is one free feat. You don't have to use it.

If he was spending a feat on it, then ignoring it, that's one thing. But if he's going ranger to be a full bab sneaky combatant with high skills, the TWF feat is an after thought.



third, i think 3 different classes is too much multi-classing


Any particular reason for that? He's only maxing out his halfling enhancements. There's no real point in going much higher.

If it's just from a "I don't think 3 classes is how you're supposed to play" PoV, that's fine for you, but irrelevant to the discussion at hand. ;)

Keep in mind that I play PnP characters with as many as 7 classes, including PrCs. So I'm pretty much the poster child for multiclassing....

As an example (because I'm avoiding work), my current stable of backups includes:

Kobold Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Dervish 2/Bloodclaw Master 2
Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Invisible Blade 1/Master Thrower 3
Fire Elf Focused Transmuter (War Wizard variant) 5/Warblade 1/Swiftblade 3
Human Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Dervish 2/Bloodclaw Master 2
Mongo Human Fighter 6/Barbarian 1/Cleric 2 (Core)
Human Sorc 4/Fighter 1/Crusader 2/Exotic Weapon Master 2
Boris Half-Ogre Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Exotic Weapon Master 1
Benji, Feral Changeling Fighter 2/Swordsage 3/Warshaper 3
Desert Gnome Illusionist 3/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcraft Mage 2

Man. I'm really really bored today.

DDO doesn't encourage dipping as much as the PnP game does, but there's a lot to be said for two or three levels in several different classes. You get your stat boost (for all of 2 AP), typically get your first rank of the defining enhancements, and if you're going melee, you get your BAB, a save boost in your primary save, and HP from where ever....

Perryc
09-26-2007, 09:12 PM
Thanks for the comments so far. To address a few of the points that have been brought up.

The build isn't intended to be the best at one type of attack, i.e. TWF vs THF vs ranged, but to be good at all of them. As such, it's not intended to be a min/max build either. Instead, it challenges the pre-conceived notions of what a ranger SHOULD be and demonstrates what it CAN be.


1st, 2HF on a ranger is just a waste.
In actual combat, my experience has been that the build does far more damage with a +3 2HF Weapon than with 2 +5 2WF weapons. Granted, the build doesn't have the GTWF feat, but neither does it have the GTHF feat either. It does, however, have the PA feat that doubles the damage bonus for THF. Unfortunately, this decreases the effectiveness of the TWF attacks. For this build, at least, DPS is accomplished using THF while stat damage and debuffing attacks are done with TWF.


2nd, all those rog lvls giving you sneak dmg will drop your overall dps using 2HF style.
Again, in actual combat, the sneak attack applies to any attack from an opponents flank. This is also true if a mob is attacking another player nearby. The only time that the build loses the sneak attack in melee is when going head-to-head.


5 rog nets you nothing special and limits your special abilities of a ranger
The build exchanges the special abilities of a ranger with those of a rogue. While it can't cast barkskin with the current level cap, it can reliably disable any trap in the game and find almost all of the too. The levels of paladin also ensure that the saving throws are exceptionally high with a reflex as high as 38 and will and fort saves in the high 20s (yes, with GH). The sneak attack, and extra 10.5 pts (based on 3d6) of damage per attack on average for most attacks. That's an EXTRA 31.5 on critical hits with great axes and mauls.


never roll this build
Sorry, already done. In fact, this is a third generation version that has close to 2000 favor and all of the raids on elite.

I did ask for criticism, but I also asked for ways to make it better. So far, most of what I've read (Cats comments not included) seems to be colored by the predjudices of what a ranger SHOULD be and not what it CAN be.:D Sorry, that's just the way it seems.

Soul-Shaker
09-27-2007, 01:11 AM
Thanks for the comments so far. To address a few of the points that have been brought up.

The build isn't intended to be the best at one type of attack, i.e. TWF vs THF vs ranged, but to be good at all of them. As such, it's not intended to be a min/max build either. Instead, it challenges the pre-conceived notions of what a ranger SHOULD be and demonstrates what it CAN be.


In actual combat, my experience has been that the build does far more damage with a +3 2HF Weapon than with 2 +5 2WF weapons. Granted, the build doesn't have the GTWF feat, but neither does it have the GTHF feat either. It does, however, have the PA feat that doubles the damage bonus for THF. Unfortunately, this decreases the effectiveness of the TWF attacks. For this build, at least, DPS is accomplished using THF while stat damage and debuffing attacks are done with TWF.


Again, in actual combat, the sneak attack applies to any attack from an opponents flank. This is also true if a mob is attacking another player nearby. The only time that the build loses the sneak attack in melee is when going head-to-head.


The build exchanges the special abilities of a ranger with those of a rogue. While it can't cast barkskin with the current level cap, it can reliably disable any trap in the game and find almost all of the too. The levels of paladin also ensure that the saving throws are exceptionally high with a reflex as high as 38 and will and fort saves in the high 20s (yes, with GH). The sneak attack, and extra 10.5 pts (based on 3d6) of damage per attack on average for most attacks. That's an EXTRA 31.5 on critical hits with great axes and mauls.


Sorry, already done. In fact, this is a third generation version that has close to 2000 favor and all of the raids on elite.

I did ask for criticism, but I also asked for ways to make it better. So far, most of what I've read (Cats comments not included) seems to be colored by the predjudices of what a ranger SHOULD be and not what it CAN be.:D Sorry, that's just the way it seems.

All I can say to you is you havent played enough. twf will outdps thf when you max out. Why because something like buffs give bonus to both hands. take a look at Bard song that can give up to 9 dmg. thats 18 dmg with 2 weapons vs 9 dmg on thf. PA also adds +10 dmg like it does on 2hander but its just split among 2 weapons 5/5. And your a 6 rgr so has access to imp twf for up to 6 attack round as it is. He might as well just gone 6ftr since he already has paladin for saves. As for sneak attack dmg, SNEAK DMG DOESNT CRIT. And you do not get sneak dmg just for flanking in PvE, but only if you do not have aggro. In PvP is where they implemented Sneak only when flanking.

While Sneak dmg doesnt crit, FAV enemy dmg does apply on crits and with 2 weapons is like bard songs. You can currently add +10 dmg on fav enemies. Yes it is interesting to something different, but the way they implemented rgr is just a waste to make a ranger around THF. Also as I stated before, its a waste to use THF for sneak dmg.

CSFurious
09-27-2007, 06:01 AM
anyway, a ranger gets three free feats that are powerful, 2-weapon, improved 2-weapon & greater 2-weapon fighting so to make a ranger that fights with 2-handed weapons defies any reasonable logic

as to multi-classing, not that the devs around deserve a whole lot of respect, but a prominent one said "i would never multi-class"

here, you got a build with 3 "dips", sorry, you diminish the whole build too much

a 2-handed build should be a barbarian or a fighter that mostly stays pure to take advantage of the natural benefits of that class

now, if you want to come up with kooky builds to alleviate boredom with the game, this is one of them


Eh. It's an option, sure, but TWF is one free feat. You don't have to use it.

If he was spending a feat on it, then ignoring it, that's one thing. But if he's going ranger to be a full bab sneaky combatant with high skills, the TWF feat is an after thought.



Any particular reason for that? He's only maxing out his halfling enhancements. There's no real point in going much higher.

If it's just from a "I don't think 3 classes is how you're supposed to play" PoV, that's fine for you, but irrelevant to the discussion at hand. ;)

Keep in mind that I play PnP characters with as many as 7 classes, including PrCs. So I'm pretty much the poster child for multiclassing....

As an example (because I'm avoiding work), my current stable of backups includes:

Kobold Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Dervish 2/Bloodclaw Master 2
Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Invisible Blade 1/Master Thrower 3
Fire Elf Focused Transmuter (War Wizard variant) 5/Warblade 1/Swiftblade 3
Human Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Dervish 2/Bloodclaw Master 2
Mongo Human Fighter 6/Barbarian 1/Cleric 2 (Core)
Human Sorc 4/Fighter 1/Crusader 2/Exotic Weapon Master 2
Boris Half-Ogre Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Exotic Weapon Master 1
Benji, Feral Changeling Fighter 2/Swordsage 3/Warshaper 3
Desert Gnome Illusionist 3/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcraft Mage 2

Man. I'm really really bored today.

DDO doesn't encourage dipping as much as the PnP game does, but there's a lot to be said for two or three levels in several different classes. You get your stat boost (for all of 2 AP), typically get your first rank of the defining enhancements, and if you're going melee, you get your BAB, a save boost in your primary save, and HP from where ever....

ErgonomicCat
09-27-2007, 10:44 AM
as to multi-classing, not that the devs around deserve a whole lot of respect, but a prominent one said "i would never multi-class"



With all due respect, it's usually not the people that build the game that optimize the game. ;)

In the PnP game, I've read a number of "uber-builds" in published adventures (that come with warnings, even) that aren't a challenge to optimized builds 3 levels lower made by players...



here, you got a build with 3 "dips", sorry, you diminish the whole build too much


You've said that twice now.

But what is this build lacking vs ranger 11/paladin 3 or rogue 11/paladin 3 that isn't compensated for by a trade off in versatility, in your opinion?

It's easy to say "You shouldn't multiclass" - people say that in the PnP game all the time. And yet the strongest builds (the world record holders on the Char Ops boards) are overwhelmingly multiclassed. The only ones that aren't are pure casters, and even those usually have PrCs.

Jaysensen
09-27-2007, 01:39 PM
Ok, since this character is already capped, the only way to make this character better is to get better gear. Once you get a +13 search item and a +6 INT item, you can drop halfling search.

2hf vs twf... it all depends on gear. If you have better 2handers, go 2hf. If you have better 1handers, go twf. Period. And use greataxes over any other 2hander, as they swing faster.


Were you to reroll, 11/2/1 is an infinitely better level split. It is more versatile, and does more damage than the original build.