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sigtrent
09-20-2007, 05:49 PM
From Sigtrent's Build Request Thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=117232)


Build Name: Flame Blade
Author: Sigfried Trent
Requester: Xirxx
Last Updated:05/17/10

Key Words [Sorcerer, Paladin, UMD, Rogue]

Objectives
The original request specified 2 rogue, 2 paladin and 10 sorcerer a combo often called a longblade sorcerer. The idea is you have evasion and high saves without investment in dex, access to various melee weapons and strong damage casting. They are challenging characters to play and level but can be quite a lot of fun in mid levels. This version really goes for broke with UMD and should be using wands and scroll casting pretty quickly. Saves are very well rounded for a caster.

Design
I went with human for the extra feat and skill points. I'm letting charisma do all the talking for saving throws here and for powering spell casting and UMD. Human also gives us versatility which is nice for augmenting many aspects of the build as needed. AC is a lost cause here once you start into the sorcerer levels in a big way. Prior to that you can just throw on some armor and a shield for working through lower levels. The original request wanted to go sword and shield, and this build can do that with a mithral light shield, but I suspect a greatsword will work out better overall with defenses focused on spells. I tried to get hit points as high as they will go. In the end game its not good for a fighter, but its pretty solid for a caster.

Spell wise its all about fire and ice damage, buffing, and mobility (D-Door, teleport etc...). This makes for a pretty enjoyable solo build, staying out of reach and raining down pain on your enemies.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Paladin \ 2 Rogue \ 16 Sorcerer)
Hit Points: 238
Spell Points: 1519
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 19
Will: 18

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 18
Dexterity 12 14
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 27

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 5 7
Bluff 3 8
Concentration 4 26
Diplomacy 7 12
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 7 12
Heal -1 -1
Hide 1 2
Intimidate 3 8
Jump 7 8
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 1 2
Open Lock 5 11
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 0 0
Spot 3 3
Swim 3 4
Tumble 5 6
Use Magic Device 7 34

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 3 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Human Versatility II


Level 5 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I


Level 6 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Wand Mastery I


Level 7 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements I


Level 8 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation II


Level 9 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded II


Level 10 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Maximizing II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma II


Level 11 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation III


Level 12 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements II


Level 13 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV


Level 14 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma III


Level 15 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation IV


Level 16 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements II


Level 17 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements III


Level 18 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I


Level 19 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 20 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Wand Mastery II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Wand Mastery III




Play
Early on this plays like a light fighter, late game it is much more a damage caster. How handy the sword action will be depends greatly on the challenge level of the quest. Carrying a good selection of heal and res scrolls will make this build more palatable to end game groups than it might otherwise be and will be the key to its soloability.

Spell penetration is a weakness but very few of the builds spells are affected by it. If the enemy has a lot of SR, just don't bother with casting the non-damage spells.

Variations
With this class breakdown there aren't a lot of other viable directions you can go. Its too hard to manage stats and skills. You could abandon charisma bumps for more strength as you level, but that hurts the saves and UMD which I think are more the strength here than its melee skills.

nbhs275
09-22-2007, 10:21 PM
the benefit of that many sorcerer levels isnt worthwhile when your already losing so many high end spells. I would say that 2 rogue 4 pally and 8 sorcerer would be better, and only if your set on getting firewall or stoneskin(SS you can get from scrolls, wands, or one you get it the seal of earth).

Ultimatly you will be much better off goin 8/4/2 paladin sorcerer rogue

way more healing, same or better saves, much better melee, and enough arcane spells to get you buy(blur, shield, arcane wand, along with some self healing via paladin)

sigtrent
09-23-2007, 03:19 AM
I find this combination of classes challenging to build for. The requester wanted those specific levels. I think your suggestion sounds pretty compelling thoug. I've not played anything like this build myself so I don't have a strong opinion.

Generaly I find it restrictive to make multi class sorcerers unless you are a Warforged (in which case the self healing is great even if you only have one level of it). I like to build the wizard fighters mroe due to the wealth of feat options and the abbility to focus on a narrow set of stats. Sorceres are challenging in that charisma does little except for spell casting.

I like the Socr/Paladin combo but its challenging, especialy when you throw in rogue. You have to wait a long time for your spell casting to become as usefull as your fighting and in the mean time your HP are rather lacking. I imagine it's a hard character to level up. I do like the massive UMD power on this one though.

I enjoy the challenge though and thanks for the advice!

Rentz
09-24-2007, 12:45 PM
the benefit of that many sorcerer levels isnt worthwhile when your already losing so many high end spells. I would say that 2 rogue 4 pally and 8 sorcerer would be better, and only if your set on getting firewall or stoneskin(SS you can get from scrolls, wands, or one you get it the seal of earth).

Ultimatly you will be much better off goin 8/4/2 paladin sorcerer rogue

way more healing, same or better saves, much better melee, and enough arcane spells to get you buy(blur, shield, arcane wand, along with some self healing via paladin)

i disagree -
8s/4p/2r = 9 BAB
10s/2r/2p = 8 BAB

you'll get better saves from 10sorc due to higher CHA enhancements and Rage spell.
30 point resists at level cap raise
3rd scorching ray at level cap raise
you'll have a ton more spell points with 10 sorc
longer buffs from 10 sorc
wall of fire and stoneskin (less operating cost and more total dmg reduced (100 points instead of 70)
higher CHA via sorc enhancement gets you closer to 39 umd for heal scrolls.
level 9 sorc spell choices gets your Rage (4 minutes of +2 str and +2 con which makes up for the lack of divine favor and paladin hitpoint advantage)
False Life spell further overcomes the paladin hitpoint advantage and acts as a good emergency instant 20 point heal to be used in a potion/false life/wand/lay on hands chain.

the ONLY advantage that 8 sorc/2 rogue/4 paladin gets you is Improved Crit.
10/2/2 has to wait until level 15 (mod 6?).

both builds have to use DIvine Power clickies for maximum melee attack profile; you might as well get all the benefit of sorcerer levels as well!

and to sigtrent:
why bother with a khopesh? you don't have Imp. Crit slashing and a shield will make a negligable difference in the giant hold, and is only a +2 improvement over the shield spell anyways.

you are far better off 2handing with power attack for 1.5x str modifier and +10 damage. your base dmg will be 30 instead of high teens.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116181
here's my old post of the drow breakdown for this build, all numbers included.

sigtrent
09-24-2007, 01:43 PM
why bother with a khopesh? you don't have Imp. Crit slashing and a shield will make a negligable difference in the giant hold, and is only a +2 improvement over the shield spell anyways.

you are far better off 2handing with power attack for 1.5x str modifier and +10 damage. your base dmg will be 30 instead of high teens.


The request specificaly requested Sword and Board. There are some advantages to that, but I agree that in generaly caster wizards who are Str based are probably a bit better off with a Two Hander. I chose kopesh since of the one handed weapons it is about the best and eventualy you would likely take improved crit at 15 to realize it's full potential. It seemed like the best feat to maximize one handed damage.

Rentz
09-24-2007, 01:59 PM
The request specificaly requested Sword and Board. There are some advantages to that, but I agree that in generaly caster wizards who are Str based are probably a bit better off with a Two Hander. I chose kopesh since of the one handed weapons it is about the best and eventualy you would likely take improved crit at 15 to realize it's full potential. It seemed like the best feat to maximize one handed damage.

meh, sounds to me like your client just needs to be reasoned with ;)

my first battlemage specc'd Bastard sword and mithral shield-- when i realized what i was missing out on (dropping 2 ac for +15 damage) i quickly respec'd to power attack and 2handers. i haven't looked back. imp.crit will be even better on the 2hander at level 15..especially if you can grab a sword of shadow.

i know you don't need convincing, i'm just writing the above for any other people who are thinking of sword and board in a build like this. The magical defenses of a battlemage are a perfect match for 2handing or TwF'ing. take advantage!

sigtrent
09-24-2007, 02:07 PM
I know you don't need convincing, i'm just writing the above for any other people who are thinking of sword and board in a build like this. The magical defenses of a battlemage are a perfect match for 2handing or TwF'ing. take advantage!

I appreciate any advice for the requesters or the builder :)

I generaly agree. My battlemage uses sword and shield (and sometimes TWF) but he is a finesse build so I'm not in it for the straight up damage.

Then again there is nothing stopping the same character from picking up a nice greatsword and using it when he wants to. All my characters go sword and shield on occasion no matter what weapon style they are specced out for.

nbhs275
09-24-2007, 10:54 PM
i disagree -
8s/4p/2r = 9 BAB
10s/2r/2p = 8 BAB

you'll get better saves from 10sorc due to higher CHA enhancements and Rage spell.
30 point resists at level cap raise
3rd scorching ray at level cap raise
you'll have a ton more spell points with 10 sorc
longer buffs from 10 sorc
wall of fire and stoneskin (less operating cost and more total dmg reduced (100 points instead of 70)
higher CHA via sorc enhancement gets you closer to 39 umd for heal scrolls.
level 9 sorc spell choices gets your Rage (4 minutes of +2 str and +2 con which makes up for the lack of divine favor and paladin hitpoint advantage)
False Life spell further overcomes the paladin hitpoint advantage and acts as a good emergency instant 20 point heal to be used in a potion/false life/wand/lay on hands chain.

the ONLY advantage that 8 sorc/2 rogue/4 paladin gets you is Improved Crit.
10/2/2 has to wait until level 15 (mod 6?).

both builds have to use DIvine Power clickies for maximum melee attack profile; you might as well get all the benefit of sorcerer levels as well!

and to sigtrent:
why bother with a khopesh? you don't have Imp. Crit slashing and a shield will make a negligable difference in the giant hold, and is only a +2 improvement over the shield spell anyways.

you are far better off 2handing with power attack for 1.5x str modifier and +10 damage. your base dmg will be 30 instead of high teens.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116181
here's my old post of the drow breakdown for this build, all numbers included.

OK, lets show you whats wrong here. I suggested 8/4/2 paladin sorcerer rogue, not sorcerer paladin rogue.

So BaB is 11, a large amount better then 8.

30 resists ? you say that like the cap is coming within the next 2 months, which is about 3 months short of the actual time. Paladin 8 gets you 20 resist, same as the sorcerer levels would.

3rd scorching ray? bad arguement, because its only going to have some value about 5 months down the line. Especially seeing i never said anything about using it.

paladin spells will last 8 mins, which isnt a far cry from 10. Difference is negligable. WoF isnt going to be doing the damage you want with only 10 caster levels, and its kinda backwards to rely on it. Stoneskin via scrolls and wands is 70, enough to work with.

10 sorcerer will have about x2 the SP, about half of the melee power and hitpoints. Mana pools dont have to be inflated when you dont have to chain cast. Also, a Torq will make the more paladin version much stronger, with the endless spellpoints it can derive from it.

Higher charisma? paladins get the same chain and advancment. next

Rage? it comes in A: clickie form B: Potion form and C: paladin 8 getting the +3 DF, which wont damage AC, which is something you should be striving for if your using a shield.

False life? Vigor is 20 hp, PLUS, the build i perposed has much larger LoH, self healing via SP, and more hp.

Improved crit is a big advantage. Divine power clickies are nice, but the boost to hit is only 36 seconds. Try making your way through a quest, but every 30 seconds you gotta switch to an item, use it, then switch back. Gets annoying.

as far as AC being useless in gianthold material, its not king but it is useful.

and anyways, the build i suggest could hit the upper levels of ac.

10 base
10 armor
8 dex
5 protection
2 choasguard
3 chattering ring
7 mithral heavy shield
1 haste
3 natural
3 paladin
____________
52, 57 if he took Combat expertise, 60 with full pally and ranger.

Personally, there is no reason to go with so many caster levels of sorcerer, when your not going to get any level 6 or 7 spells. 12/2 sorcerer rogue or sorcerer paladin is great because they gain alot with only the loss of a portion of SP and 1 or 2 spells. But dipping out takes away ALOT of sp, alot of the spell DPS, and 3-6 spells(not sure about the exact count). In this case your better off using the sorcerer as the dip class.

Rentz
09-25-2007, 10:16 AM
nbhs, it seems we're comparing apples to oranges...

i was responding to the first section in your post above where you said:

the benefit of that many sorcerer levels isnt worthwhile when your already losing so many high end spells. I would say that 2 rogue 4 pally and 8 sorcerer would be better, and only if your set on getting firewall or stoneskin(SS you can get from scrolls, wands, or one you get it the seal of earth).

my above points are (in my opinion) valid reasons why 10s/2r/2p is superior to 2r/4p/8s -- and i've actually played both of them. :)

comparing 10s/2r/2p to 8 pal/4s/2r is an apples to oranges comparison in my opinion. they accomplish their objectives through very different means.
it's almost not worth discussing as either build would be fine, it's more of a "what do you want to do?" question as opposed to "which build is superior" question.

however, here's some counterthoughts to your points-.


WoF isnt going to be doing the damage you want with only 10 caster levels
2d6 + 10 + 100% (maximize) + 40% (enh) +50% (potency) = 71 dmg per tick discounting any crits. while not 'uber', or the maximimum, it's not bad at all when combined with some nice 30 str two-handing damage. it also gives you a non-melee option for damage, which can't be said for a paladin.



Higher charisma? paladins get the same chain and advancment. next
you need 10 levels of sorc OR paladin to receive the +3 charisma enhancement- 8p/4s/2r won't qualify.


Rage? it comes in A: clickie form B: Potion form and C: paladin 8 getting the +3 DF, which wont damage AC, which is something you should be striving for if your using a shield.
-yes, rage comes in potion or clickies and is quite useable. however, it is nice to be able to extend it and not have to think about it for 4 minutes. more of a convenience thing and a nice benefit of 9 levels of sorc.
-AC is a completely different matter. obviously if you're trying to max ac, rage isn't the way to go.
-Divine favor: i could be wrong, it's been a while since i've touched my paladin: but IIRC you don't receive +3 divine favor until level 9?


Stoneskin via scrolls and wands is 70, enough to work with.
it will have suffer from caster check failure, but will be useable when buffing before a fight. not as nice as 100 points that you can cast more quickly than scrolling it, and at a cheaper price for a longer duration. but yes, it's viable.



10 sorcerer will have about x2 the SP, about half of the melee power and hitpoints. Mana pools dont have to be inflated when you dont have to chain cast. Also, a Torq will make the more paladin version much stronger, with the endless spellpoints it can derive from it.

10 sorc will have about 1150 sp vs about 700 for the paladin (not quite x2, but a nice amount more), and some very useful things to spend it on:
haste, displace, stoneskin, rage, false life, blur, shield, jump, and situationally; wall of fire/scorching ray. as well as 20 point resists (but with evasion, that's generally plenty).
-as for half the melee power; divine power clickies for the win. I can 2hand more diffensively than perhaps any other character out there aside from a warforged version of the same character. it's a nice balance.
-hitpoints: my drow battlemage stands at 209 hit points before any buffs, and gets himself up to 260+ before most combats. is it as many as a paladin? no... but it's very manageable.


False life? Vigor is 20 hp, PLUS, the build i perposed has much larger LoH, self healing via SP, and more hp.
again, different play styles. you don't need to heal as much when you're always displaced and stoneskinned. if you roll a warforged (which is also perfectly viable) you can heal yourself from mana.



Divine power clickies are nice, but the boost to hit is only 36 seconds. Try making your way through a quest, but every 30 seconds you gotta switch to an item, use it, then switch back. Gets annoying.
it's not bad really; i have a whole toolbar of divine power clickies, and about 10 charges on goggles which i don't have to unequip. it's quite manageable really. some people may not care for it, but i don't mind. not much worse than 1 minute divine favors.




Personally, there is no reason to go with so many caster levels of sorcerer, when your not going to get any level 6 or 7 spells. 12/2 sorcerer rogue or sorcerer paladin is great because they gain alot with only the loss of a portion of SP and 1 or 2 spells. But dipping out takes away ALOT of sp, alot of the spell DPS, and 3-6 spells(not sure about the exact count). In this case your better off using the sorcerer as the dip class

thats a perfectly fine and valid opinion-
my argument is that if you want to build a meleer who has a lot of nice magical abilities and doesn't rely on anyone else for buffs, 10sorc/2r/2p is a VERY nice option, and i don't believe there is a mathematically better combination of sorc/paly/rogue levels to create a battlemage. you're not using your sorc levels for offensive spells so much as you're using them for defense/buffs, and haste. fw is fun to stand in, though.

if you're not comfortable relying on buffs/magic to make you combat viable, then 8 or more levels of paladin (or something else) is for sure a much better option.

Taerdra
09-25-2007, 10:23 AM
just a note, chattering ring and chaosgarde are both dodge bonuses. the +3 ring applies.


Dodge bonuses do stack.

Rentz
09-25-2007, 10:37 AM
hah,
me=pwnd. :P