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Lorien_the_First_One
09-20-2007, 03:39 PM
I've got a baby Bard...my first... and looking at the progression I'm wonding if if there is any real downside in taking 1 level of Sorc at some point.

Assuming a 26 CHR...

The one level of Sorc gives you 2 level 1 spells, 260 SP (180 base, 80 bonus)

You give up 1 BAB, 33 SP (25 base + 8 bonus), 1 level 5 spell slot, and the +2 inspire courage.

To me it would appear that the net 227 SP gain would be a huge playability improvement, especially with the lower level buffs costing more SP in mod 5.

The level 5 slot is a bit of a loss (and presumably that will turn into losing 1 of the top slots whatever they are in the future with level increases) but then that's the wiz/sorc trade off....cast more spell or cast more often, both have their advantages.

Losing the 1 BAB is a bit of a pain but +1 shouldn't make or break anything and it would let me cast GH on the whole party an extra time in return :D

Having access to all arcane wands without a UMD check couldn't hurt either (although from what I understand you don't tend to fail UMD very often :P)

So I ask the experts... What do you think?

skraus1
09-20-2007, 04:01 PM
Depending on what you want the bard to do. For a CC bard, the extra sp are useful, but for all sorc/wizzie spells you will no longer be able to umd their scrolls, as you will now rely on caster level. This REALLY sucks if you use high level sorc/wizzie scrolls a lot.

You also lose 1 caster level, which is not vital but is helpful.

Schmackdown
09-20-2007, 04:01 PM
A search on the word 'sorc' in this forum to get you started:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=118182&highlight=sorc

I personally believe that by the current cap, much less level 20, you'll regret taking the level of sorc. Your UMD will be high enough to use whatever you want, and unless your primary CC method is a constant stream of extended/heightened holds rather than just the standard Otto's or Fear, you'll likely be shrining to recoup songs, not mana. And that's even with keeping all of the melees displaced and hasted. I rarely use SP for healing, though, Heal scrolls are just too easy and effective. If you're a hardcore SP healer, those extra sorc points may do you right.

WolfSpirit
09-20-2007, 04:08 PM
Depending on what you want the bard to do. For a CC bard, the extra sp are useful, but for all sorc/wizzie spells you will no longer be able to umd their scrolls, as you will now rely on caster level. This REALLY sucks if you use high level sorc/wizzie scrolls a lot.

You also lose 1 caster level, which is not vital but is helpful.

Well, actually you will use whichever check has the greatest chance of success.
For example:
My Bard was using UMD for Greater Hero scrolls till about lv 10, thats because it had a better (though not great) chance of success.
At around lv 11 or so I started to notice the roll go from UMD to Caster Level Check.
Better chance of success from the caster level at that point.
As for your original question:
Its really a matter of personal choice depending on your own playstyle.
Have fun!
I love playing my Bard and the HUGH UMD is awesome.

Lifespawn
09-20-2007, 05:45 PM
bard spells cap out at lvl 15 so no real loss with 1 lvl of sorc after that.

The biggest question is are you a caster bard? be it healing or alot of sound bursts or dancing balls whatever if your a caster specced bard go for it.

geezee
09-21-2007, 09:23 AM
If you are planning to use cc spells, dont forget that the sorc dip will cost you a point when youre attempting to overcome SR. Which means it applies to almost all offensive bard spells. This could be compensated for with a spell pen feat, but that makes me wonder why not take a mental toughness feat instead? Did you take spellsinger? You really didnt say much about your character in order for people to give relevant advice. If we end up getting level 6 spells, the sorc dip will seem quite gimpy at level 16 imo.

skraus1
09-21-2007, 10:48 AM
My Bard was using UMD for Greater Hero scrolls till about lv 10, thats because it had a better (though not great) chance of success.
At around lv 11 or so I started to notice the roll go from UMD to Caster Level Check.
Better chance of success from the caster level at that point.


Guess they fixed it. People used to complain about this on the dev forums all the time.

Geonis
09-21-2007, 01:37 PM
My Bard is level 10/2 Ranger and I had a major problem with running out of SP. Then I rearranged APs and a feat to pick up Spellsinger and have nothad a problem with SP since. The +100SP and 10% discount combine to save quite a bit, and the +1 to DC is gravy. I say grab Spell Focus:Enchantment to be able to grab Spellsinger and pick that up. You won't regret it.

Kizer
09-22-2007, 11:49 AM
bard spells cap out at lvl 15 so no real loss with 1 lvl of sorc after that.

The biggest question is are you a caster bard? be it healing or alot of sound bursts or dancing balls whatever if your a caster specced bard go for it.

We get level 6 spells at 16.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

geezee
09-22-2007, 01:19 PM
We get level 6 spells at 16.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm


This page also shows why the gimpiness of MCing your bard will get worse at levels 18 and 20 too. Not having mass suggestion @ 18 and max IC @ 20 will seem probably have you wondering why you dipped for a number of spell points which may seem insignificant by that time.

Lifespawn
09-22-2007, 04:24 PM
sry that came out wrong bards cap out at lvl 6 spells for me waiting for lvl increase isn't an issue i plan on going 16 bard 4 barb for lvl 20 but mines a warchanter.The main thing i'm getting at is if your a healing specced bard or whatever the extra sp's may be worth it.

nbhs275
09-22-2007, 10:35 PM
spell points are a crutch on a bard. my battle bard(14 bard) has about 850 sp, and can go through any* quest without having to worry about it. Thats with buffing, healing myself, CC, perma hasting and killing. Its just a matter of not wasting spellpoints, using the right scrolls, and knowing what your doing.

I would say taking a level of sorcerer isnt going to horrible gimp you but you are going to miss out. Your making you fight songs weaker, your spell penetration lower, will miss out on some skills, and high end enhancments. Remember, if the level 12 and 14 enhancments are this strong, imagine what the level 20 will be(spell singer III !)

* it also helps that i use a torq and a horrible AC(its about 12-14 usually) to keep the mana flowing back in as it goes out.

Kizer
09-23-2007, 02:50 PM
This page also shows why the gimpiness of MCing your bard will get worse at levels 18 and 20 too. Not having mass suggestion @ 18 and max IC @ 20 will seem probably have you wondering why you dipped for a number of spell points which may seem insignificant by that time.

I really like how many spell slots we get from 16 - 20 as well. I wouldn't mind 5 level 1 - 5 spells or the 3rd / 4th spells slots for level 6 spells.

We also get +3 BAB between those levels, you'll get +4 bab out of for Barb levels. Then we get the +1 for IC at 20, not including enhancements like Inspired Attack +4. A pure bard at level 20 (spec'd for warchanting) will have the same BAB as a 16/4 split (when you are barb raging) while both use songs.

After playing a few flavors of the warchanter (one with BAB melee levels and a pure bard), I'd have to say pure bard is the way to go. With a greataxe and songs I regularly outkill the melee in my groups.