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Beherit_Baphomar
09-17-2007, 03:14 PM
Hello Ranger People.

Ok so, I like to keep my characters pure class, but one thing Id like, as Im sure we all would, is UMD on my ranger. Is it viable? I dont want to give up too much.
So basically I want my cake AND I want to eat it too!
Im looking for a nice UMD score, maybe a base of 18 at level 14 or something. A UMD where I can boost using items (Golden Cartouche) and buffs (Greter Heroism) and be able to equip race required weapons...which most seem to be around the 20-22 range. Is this possible? Or do you give up too much using a feat on Skill Focus - UMD and putting stat points into CHA?

Next question. Can someone tell me the feat tree for shot on the run? I believe it starts off with Point Blank Shot and works up from there. Obviously, I dont want to gimp my lil guy from the getgo and find out I can take shot on the run come level 14.

Thanks in advance.

Bee/Plook.

Roguewiz
09-17-2007, 03:27 PM
Hello Ranger People.

Ok so, I like to keep my characters pure class, but one thing Id like, as Im sure we all would, is UMD on my ranger. Is it viable? I dont want to give up too much.
So basically I want my cake AND I want to eat it too!
Im looking for a nice UMD score, maybe a base of 18 at level 14 or something. A UMD where I can boost using items (Golden Cartouche) and buffs (Greter Heroism) and be able to equip race required weapons...which most seem to be around the 20-22 range. Is this possible? Or do you give up too much using a feat on Skill Focus - UMD and putting stat points into CHA?

Next question. Can someone tell me the feat tree for shot on the run? I believe it starts off with Point Blank Shot and works up from there. Obviously, I dont want to gimp my lil guy from the getgo and find out I can take shot on the run come level 14.

Thanks in advance.

Bee/Plook.

Dodge
Mobility
Point Blank Shot

As far as UMD goes, Rangers get 6 + Int per level. So, you'd be spending 2 points every level to raise UMD. Which isn't so bad. Your maximum RANKS would be 8.

8 Ranks
+3 Feat
+3 Item
+4 Greater Heroism
= 18 UMD
+5 Boost (if you go for the max boost)
=23 UMD

Of course, this isn't taking into consideration your CHA, whatever you decide that to be.

Blazer
09-17-2007, 03:34 PM
Hi Bee,

Shot on the Run needs DEX 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, and BAB +4. I won't give my opinion on taking the feats to get SotR unless you ask. ;)

UMD on a ranger - well, it's kinda like UMD on any other class where UMD is not a primary skill (read: 8.5 ranks max at level 14) except you do get a skill boost enhancement if you wanted it. So with a 10 CHA, you're at 8.5 ranks or 8 effectively. SF: UMD to 11, GHero to 15, Cartouche to 18, +4 CHA item to 20...I'm sure you can work the math out from here. Certainly seems like you can do it, as long as you're only looking to use RR equipment.

Now of course the problem - assuming pure and non-human, you're looking at Dodge, Mobility, PBS, SotR, and SF: UMD. Whoops, there go all your feats. I'm sure you've realized this already, however, and are already thinking of what is truly needed vs. what is nice to have.

Beherit_Baphomar
09-18-2007, 10:09 AM
I always thought shot on the run was like a ranger staple...gotta have it...
Hmmm....

Thank you for the replys. Im enjoying playing my ranger, lvl3 and with a +1 dagger in his offhand and a rapier in his other he gets +8 to-hit....dual wielding fun...

There are so many feats...do you have to choose between dual wielding spec'd or ranged spec'd? I want to do both, but I want to do both good...

Roguewiz
09-18-2007, 10:40 AM
I always thought shot on the run was like a ranger staple...gotta have it...
Hmmm....

Thank you for the replys. Im enjoying playing my ranger, lvl3 and with a +1 dagger in his offhand and a rapier in his other he gets +8 to-hit....dual wielding fun...

There are so many feats...do you have to choose between dual wielding spec'd or ranged spec'd? I want to do both, but I want to do both good...

In DDO, you get them both. In PnP (if I remember right), you must choose.

Blazer
09-18-2007, 11:10 AM
As Roguewiz pointed out, in DDO you are granted both combat styles whereas in PnP you need to choose one. As long as you maintain a respectable DEX, you will do fine with ranged combat.

I don't consider SotR a ranger staple and here's why. First, ranged combat as everyone knows is borked in DDO. Other than that 20 seconds of Many Shot, the ROF is slow and the DPS is terrible even if you have a good STR behind it. Second, as long as you keep up a good DEX score (30+) you should have no problems hitting the majority of stuff while kiting it, should you find yourself in that situation. If you are having trouble, just plink it first with a Destruction bow and you're set now. Third, a non-human ranger only gets 5 feats. One or two are usually set aside for Improved Critical Slash/Pierce and Ranged*. That leaves you 3 feats, enough to take Dodge/PBS/SotR. Most feel that there are better feats to choose with those 3 available than the SotR chain, however, and I tend to agree.

*Yeah, I know, why IC: Ranged when I've said ranged combat is borked? It's for when you do break out Many Shot and a bow you want to crit more over that 20 second time frame. Or, for a more specific example, Silver Bow + IC: Ranged + Cold Iron arrows = very dead Demon Queen. d10 17-20/x3 is very nice.

Hope this helps you out Bee. Oh, and make sure you take Undead with one of your Favored Enemies. :)

Zenako
09-18-2007, 12:38 PM
Got to agree with Blazer on the SotR analysis. I really don't miss it and I find I still hit almost all the time while moving. Using those feats for Improved Crit much more useful. Also many times with a superior SPOT skill you can pick out the mobs at a great range and frequently kill them while they run towards you while you are standing still. You MIGHT have to move right at the end, but by then the mob is almost dead. By not moving, it lets your melee brerethen just intercept and finish them off as they close. Freeing up the three feats opens up a LOT of different design choices.

Beherit_Baphomar
09-18-2007, 01:52 PM
Well, my lil guy is Elf, he's at level 3 now with a 22 DEX, +10 to-hit with a bow.

First feat I took was weapon finnese...he has a STR of 14 but with a DEX of 22 it just seemed a good choice.

Another thing, when building a ranger should you either do DEX or STR or can you do both like I did? I think a 14 baase STR is not bad...I kept CON at 10 or 12, Im not worried about HP's endgame, the mobs wont get near me.

Im sorry for all these questions guys, its just rangers seem to have a bunch of really nie feats/enhancements available to them and they are way different from anything Ive played so far.

His stats are something like this;

STR 14
DEX 20 (22 @ lvl3)
CON 10
WIS 10
INT 10
CHA 10

I know Rangers, like Paladins, need a base WIS of 14 to cast spells, but I assume it works like Pallys and equipment bonuses go toward that 14. So I may need to wait a while before I can cast spells, but I thought the points best spent somewhere else.
Im thinking I may have to reroll, something Ive never done before. See, Im really enjoying playing this lil fella, but I want to get him right.
Should I drop STR and pump up CON and WIS? Im really not too sure what 14 STR is gonna give me when I use Weapon Finesse. Should I drop WF? Is maxing out DEX worth it? Or should I stick to 18 base? I have 32 points unlocked. I will take IC-Pierce/Ranged, and I was wanting to take a few other ranged-type feats...but I also wanted to have good TWF. I know I got improved TWF free at level 3, do we get greater twf free later on too?

Ok to summarize;

1) STR 14, should I drop this and put the points elsewhere?
2) Feats; I have Weapon Finesse, should I keep this?
3) General STAT question; do they look ok?
4) Do we get Grtr TWF free later on in levels? If so is there any other feats that help with TWF that I should consider?

Sorry again for all the questions guys....you are very helpful...

Soul-Shaker
09-18-2007, 02:38 PM
1) STR 14, should I drop this and put the points elsewhere?
2) Feats; I have Weapon Finesse, should I keep this?
3) General STAT question; do they look ok?
4) Do we get Grtr TWF free later on in levels? If so is there any other feats that help with TWF that I should consider?

Sorry again for all the questions guys....you are very helpful...

Jaysensen has a general ranger tips thread you should look at. The Ranger Tips Thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=118842)

Both str and dex builds have there own benefits, but I say the dex versions better for a elf/drow ranger because of the higher tohit that comes with it. You can gain dps through power attack, gain more dmg then str build if started 14 str, and not sacrifice much. (34-36 dex +12-13) vs ( 26-28 str build +8-9).

1) 14 is fine
2) Yes you should keep weapon finesse and pick up power attack later
3) You shouldnt max out a stat unless your a caster whose dependent on you spell dcs. Dropping your dex to 18 will give you 6 extra points to work with and you only lost 1 dex mod. Just make sure to keep investing in Dex at every 4 levels. bump your con to 12, int to 11 (eat a +1 int tome at lvl 1, and +2 in the future if you ever want CE), 3 points to put into wis and/or cha
4) lvl 2 twf/rapid shot, 6, imp twf/many shot, 11 grtr twf/precise shot/imp precise shot. Weapon focus, power attack both help twf on dex builds

Blazer
09-18-2007, 02:50 PM
Ok to summarize;

1) STR 14, should I drop this and put the points elsewhere?
2) Feats; I have Weapon Finesse, should I keep this?
3) General STAT question; do they look ok?
4) Do we get Grtr TWF free later on in levels? If so is there any other feats that help with TWF that I should consider?

Sorry again for all the questions guys....you are very helpful...

Since 1-3 are sorta tied together, I'm gonna tackle 4 first since it's easier and shorter. :) GTWF, like all the TWF feats, are granted to rangers when they hit the appropriate level. ITWF is at lvl 6, GTWF is a lvl 11. There are no other feats that help improve your TWF skills directly, no.

Ok, questions 1-3 are sorta tied around your initial stat distribution. Here's the deal - certain classes lend themselves well to min/maxing (barbs, for example). Rangers really aren't one of those classes. Elves are really nice in that they get a racial DEX enhancement, thus freeing you up to put more points into STR, CON, and WIS. If you put more points into STR at creation, and put those lvl up points into STR as well, you can safely hit 28 STR and 28/30 DEX with your elven ranger. This will give you more bang when you TWF and use a bow. The difference between 28 STR and 14-18 STR when using something like the Silver Bow is significant. I would suggest something like this perhaps:

STR 17 (+3 levels + 6 item + 2 1750 tome) = 28
DEX 17 (+5 enhancements + 5 item + 1 tome) = 28
CON 13 (+5 item) = 18
INT 8
WIS 11 (+5 item) = 16
CHA 8

If you're not worried about HP as you state, then you could drop CON to 12 at creation and put those 2 extra points elsewhere. DEX should you want to hit a 30, WIS if you were looking for the increased will save and SP, INT if you wanted the extra skill point. I know you're a higher end player Bee, so +5/+6 items won't be hard for you to come by.

With a stat distribution like this, you can forego Weapon Finesse and either pick up something like khopesh or focus on the elven strengths of longswords and rapiers. This frees up a feat for something else you may like/need more. You can also pick up the elven ranged attack enhancement line if you feel you're missing more than you want with a bow.

Zenako
09-18-2007, 02:59 PM
14 STR is fine for a finesse ftr and gets you some Bow Damage and with any sort of boosts let you get past DR if that becomes an issue.

I too would have thought about giving up a bit of DEX. I started with a 14 INT (but I also knew I would be doing some Rogue as well) and I started with a 12 WIS.

For spell casting you need 10+1/spell level you want to be able to cast WIS.

So at 11 WIS could cast 1st level spells
At 12 WIS could cast up to 2nd level spells
At 14 WIS could cast up to 4th level spells.

Keep in mind that a low levels when you first get access to spells your spell points will be almost non-existant. The best part of being spell using is that you will able to use a whole bunch of wands without having to UMD them. My Ranger now has about 170 Spell points (270 with Magi Mace equiped). When running solo, that is more than enough, and when running in a group, you can spread out the Barkskins pretty easily and maybe a Jump or two (or resists if they are needed.)

I started my Elf Ranger with 14 Str, XX DEX, 10 Con, 14 INT, 12 WIS, 10 CHA. Dex was as high as I could get it with the other stats. All level up boosts have gone into DEX.

rpasell
09-18-2007, 03:35 PM
I always thought shot on the run was like a ranger staple...gotta have it...
Hmmm....

Thank you for the replys. Im enjoying playing my ranger, lvl3 and with a +1 dagger in his offhand and a rapier in his other he gets +8 to-hit....dual wielding fun...

There are so many feats...do you have to choose between dual wielding spec'd or ranged spec'd? I want to do both, but I want to do both good...

I have 4 Rangers of varying type, and have never bothered with SotR with any of them. Obviously it's just an opinion, but it's usefulness is limited for the number of feats it requires. I usually add points to wisdom just because I like the extra spell points, and ability to keep a party buffed for the duration of any quest.

I never even thought about power attack on a dex/WF build, that's a great idea. I'm swapping it in tonight.

Both my capped rangers are Dex/WF builds, my level 8 is a Str build. They are all fun to play, can solo a ton of content, and with the right weapons out kill or compete with most pure DPS classes. Wounding of puncturing is a big part of that. The only thing I'm no good at is PvP.

Anyway, have fun with em, I think it's the best class out there.

Altbier
09-19-2007, 07:09 AM
My original build (fezziwig) is close to what you have except it was drow. Can't say that you will need the sotr. Keep pumping the dex and you will hit just fine. UMD was helpful but on the second generation build (fezziwigs) I left it out and cranked all of the class skills.

As for the wisdom score I would drop it to 9 use the points elsewhere and get a +6 wis item or +5 wis item and a +1 wis tome. Can only cast lvl 4 spells now and lvl 6 is the cap. Oh yeah and a magi item will help with the sp. The points could be used to lift your int score for the UMD you want.

Anything else would be style of play oriented.

Enjoy the ranger

Beherit_Baphomar
09-19-2007, 10:43 AM
Thanks guys,

I got the character planner working (YAY!) and Ive built myself a lil ranger.

So here he is:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Plook
Level 14 Chaotic Good Elf Male
(14 Ranger)
Hit Points: 132
Spell Points: 211
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 9
Reflex: 18
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 13 14
Dexterity 18 28
Constitution 10 10
Intelligence 11 12
Wisdom 13 14
Charisma 13 14

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14)
Balance 4 9
Bluff 2 2
Concentration 0 9
Diplomacy 2 2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 2
Heal 2 5
Hide 8 26
Intimidate 2 2
Jump 4 19
Listen 2 4
Move Silently 8 26
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 1
Search 5 20
Spot 6 21
Swim 2 2
Tumble 5 10
Use Magic Device 4 13

Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Reptillian
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse

Level 2 (Ranger)

Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw

Level 4 (Ranger)

Level 5 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead

Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device

Level 7 (Ranger)

Level 8 (Ranger)

Level 9 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons

Level 10 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Monstrous Humanoid

Level 11 (Ranger)

Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Ranger)

Level 14 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost IV
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Elf Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Elf Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Elf Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Elf Ranged Attack I
Enhancement: Elf Ranged Attack II
Enhancement: Elf Ranged Damage I
Enhancement: Elf Ranged Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity III




What ya think?

Primarily a solo'ist, I believe I am an excellent solo player...I love to do it.

Tell me what ya think guys. I dont seem to be able to put equipment onto him with the Character Planner, but looking at the lil fella without equipment it can, obviously, only get better.

I know he's a basic Elf Ranger, nothing special, but I think he's gonna be awesome solo.

Im very excited to reroll Plook and start levelling him.

Again, thank you guys for all your input.

Bee.

Roguewiz
09-19-2007, 11:07 AM
I "highly" recommend getting balance to around 25+ with items/buffs. As a dex monkey, you lose all your AC when kissing dirt. Other than that, looks good ;)

Edit:

Noticed ya didnt have items included. So I assume:

18 Dex Base
+2 Tome
+3 Level Raises
+5 Enhancements
+6 Item (Potential)
34 Total Dex (+12 Mod)

+12 Mod
+10 Item
22 Balance

NM on the points, that balance is close enough...providing you constantly wear a +10 or higher item ;)
** Although, I'd still shoot for 25+, if not closer to 30+

Beherit_Baphomar
09-19-2007, 11:56 AM
I could drop jump down to 10, giving me another 9 points to put into balance....now, balance doesnt help with actually getting tripped/knocked over, right? Balance is only used to get back up from a trip....

So that'd be 18 balance, base, plus item would bring it close to 30. Items with balance can be situational....Maze of Madness or any quest with lots of mino's....Air room in PoP....and jump can stand to be lowered some...

Cool....ty Rogue

swmarion
09-19-2007, 11:57 AM
you do need a trip save to prevent from being nocked down or trip

Blazer
09-19-2007, 12:01 PM
Roguewiz, why are you recommending such a high balance needed? I never sunk any points into my ranger, he's sitting on an 11 (32 DEX), and gets right back up first time after a knockdown/trip.

Side note: I wish if we had a high enough balance score, however, instead of just clambering back to our feet we could do a kip-up. Kinda like how a high tumble lets you do backflips. Kip-up would be awesome. :)

Beherit_Baphomar
09-19-2007, 12:21 PM
you do need a trip save to prevent from being nocked down or trip

The save is strength based, no?
Balance is to get back up, I think...thats what I recall anyways.

Jaysensen
09-19-2007, 12:26 PM
The trip check is a DEX or STR check (whichever is higher) vs the DC of the (Improved) Trip + strategy enhancements.

The Balance check is used every tick in order to get up. Failed Balance check = on your back.


I think the combat dice displays the correct check.

Blazer
09-19-2007, 12:28 PM
I think the combat dice displays the correct check.

It does. I get a STR check on my fighter, a DEX check on my ranger.

Pfamily
09-20-2007, 10:12 AM
If you took finesse just for THF, then you could save the feat by holding a "finesse-granting" weapon in your off-hand when you THF and spend the feat on something else.

Just my nickel...

Rangers are a blast Bee, enjoy!

PS: cast bark and freedom of movement on your party every chance you get, and run down to the Wavecrest every once in a while and cast a jump on all the noobs...then watch the jump-a-thon!

Beherit_Baphomar
09-21-2007, 12:01 PM
I took weapon finesse because my DEX is higher than my STR...I thought that was kinda the way to go, no?

WF takes your DEX bonus for yer to-hit rather than STR, right?

Does it not make sense to do that? Am I wasting a feat on that?

And yeah, you can get weapons with finesse, but you cant get wounding of puncturing with finesse....which is why I rolled Plook in the first place...I got me some nice weapons for a twf/ranger..

But yeah, tell me about weapon finesse and if Im wasting a feat...

rpasell
09-21-2007, 12:10 PM
I took weapon finesse because my DEX is higher than my STR...I thought that was kinda the way to go, no?

WF takes your DEX bonus for yer to-hit rather than STR, right?

Does it not make sense to do that? Am I wasting a feat on that?

And yeah, you can get weapons with finesse, but you cant get wounding of puncturing with finesse....which is why I rolled Plook in the first place...I got me some nice weapons for a twf/ranger.. The last thing you want to see in combat is "Miss, Miss, Miss, Miss". If you don't think you'll have a problem hitting then I guess you don't need it. Of course finding/buying nice rapiers and light picks is either expensive, or requires good loot table luck.

But yeah, tell me about weapon finesse and if Im wasting a feat...


Took me a second to figure out you meant you can't get a wounding of puncturing with finesse as a bonus on the weapon itself (i.e. a +1 Finesse Wounding of Puncturing Short Sword) as it would require 2 prefixes or 2 suffixes. That said I would say Weapon Finesse is almost a requirement for a DEX based TWF ranger. Especially if you are a stat damager.

Jaysensen
09-21-2007, 12:15 PM
I took weapon finesse because my DEX is higher than my STR...I thought that was kinda the way to go, no?

WF takes your DEX bonus for yer to-hit rather than STR, right?

Does it not make sense to do that? Am I wasting a feat on that?


You are looking at it correctly.

Look at it this way..Lets say you have 30 DEX and 24 STR. If you take Weapon Finesse, you are getting +3 to hit on one feat - hard to say if its worth it. Now if you are going 14 STR 28 DEX, I think its fairly obvious that Finesse is important as one feat is granting you 7 attack.

Technically, a Finesse weapon grats the feat, so you *COULD* offhand a Finesse weapon of something and main hand your main weapon. Id never do that on a DPS class.

Beherit_Baphomar
09-24-2007, 09:58 AM
You are looking at it correctly.

Look at it this way..Lets say you have 30 DEX and 24 STR. If you take Weapon Finesse, you are getting +3 to hit on one feat - hard to say if its worth it. Now if you are going 14 STR 28 DEX, I think its fairly obvious that Finesse is important as one feat is granting you 7 attack.

Technically, a Finesse weapon grats the feat, so you *COULD* offhand a Finesse weapon of something and main hand your main weapon. Id never do that on a DPS class.

Right, the FEAT Weapon Finesse lets me use shocking burst daggers of pure good in my offhand, or, like I said, a WoP dagger....far better weapons to have in your offhand than a finesse one.

Besides, I used a feat on Quick Draw, I think they are falling from the sky!