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tc12
09-17-2007, 01:14 PM
I want to build a STR/TWF Ranger, only Elf instead of the typical Dwarf everyone builds these days. Yes I know for a melee class any non-Dwarf is giving up a lot of hit points, armor mastery, yada yada. So my question is not how to do this better with Dwarf or another race, but focused solely on how to do this best as an elf. Not a full build in the char planner yet, just looking at stats and splash first. Is this a good start?

STR 18 + 3 lvl +1 tome +6 item =28.
DEX 16 +4 Elf/Ra-Enh +6 (from item and/or tome) =26
CON 12 +4 (minimally) = 16
INT 8 (Will have plenty of skill points as is...)
WIS 9 +5 (minimally) = 14 (Enough spell pts with a magi item when shrining)
CHA 11 +1 Pal CHA enh +6 (from item and/or tome) = 18

Would use Elf longsword attack enhancement as well as the Paladin enh for +3 on the attack side. For anything *really* hard to hit can switch to longsword/rapier or sword-n-board if needed to drop the -4 or -2 2WF penalties.

My main question is on the Paladin levels. I've never splashed Pally before, part of my reason for wanting to try this build. Is the 18 target CHA ok? Is 3 levels good for this build or should I go only 2? I know deferring the 12th level of ranger means no +5 bark until the cap goes up, and I'm ok with that part if the bulwark/resistance enhancements with the 3rd level are worth it. Seems some people do this with the 3 level splash where others just do 2. Explanation of pro's/con's from Pally splash build experts out there would be greatly appreciated. (Impaqt? Gren? Others?)

TC

Bromm
09-17-2007, 04:37 PM
Yes 3 Levels of Pally is a must.

You will get Fear Immune, +1 AC enhancement to your Aura, +1 Saves Enhancement to your aura, and an Extra Lay Of Hands enhancement.

Also if i remeber your base saves get +1 Reflex and Will at level 3 for pally.

So if your set on playing a skinny arse Elf instead of a Dwarf then at least make sure you take 3 levels of Pally. I would suggest levels 3-5 so you get the fear immune and extra LoH early when they are most needed.


Cheers

Oh and your going to have alot of fun with this build :)

Impaqt
09-17-2007, 04:45 PM
11Range/3Paly is a nice split for current content.

You lose 1 pt on your Bark, but gain that back on your AUra so its a Wash. Level cap will go up eventually... Id rather have the Disease and Fear immunity now.

Persoanlly, I'd start STR at 17. Use those 3 points for CHR or Wisdom..... (10Wis, 13CHR probobly) You should be able to get to 1750 fairly easily with this guy... a +2 Favor tome will get ya up to 28STR.

Roguewiz
09-17-2007, 04:58 PM
What Impaq said.

Also, are you totally set on going Elf, or would you be willing to go Drow? You can save some points and get a higher INT also doing that.

Of course, you wont have longswords as a racial weapon.

Vengenance
09-17-2007, 07:47 PM
Looks good. Like Impaqt said I'd probably go with a 17 Str instead of 18 and put one more point into dex, which I believe then would get you to 28 Str/28 Dex at end game. This makes going range on occasion a very viable option, many shot FTW.

Also, you're probably just going to want to go with either longswords or rapiers due to the elven enhancements. Make sure you work work weapon focus:slashing or piercing and Improved Critical.

Sounds like a fun build, with an 18 Char you'll also end up with some pretty nice saves (+4 just from your charisma). You may also want to work UMD into your build since you have the Char already working in your favor.

QuantumFX
09-17-2007, 08:17 PM
Having played an elven 12 Ranger/2 Paladin I'd advise sticking with the 18 STR /16 DEX you currently have unless you plan on dipping 2 levels of fighter in the future. If DDO follows the same schedule as last year we'll see a cap increase soon enough where you'll get a 22 STR without tomes.

Also while the longsword enhancements are great you should focus your improved crits on Peircing first. Stuff that requires slashing weapons to kill tend to be uncritable and rapiers tend to do more damage to critable foes.

11/3 is a great split point. Taking at least one level early in your career allows you to wear heavier armor until you get evasion.

tc12
09-18-2007, 12:36 PM
What Impaq said.

Also, are you totally set on going Elf, or would you be willing to go Drow? You can save some points and get a higher INT also doing that.

Of course, you wont have longswords as a racial weapon.

Thx all for the input. I'll look more at the 17 vs. 18 STR. Do you think if I plan to get to 28 each DEX/STR at 16th level that's enough? (Instead of 30 STR with 18 start, 4th level pt & +2 tome.) Meaning:

2 Longswords is -4/-4 offset by the +3 between racial and follower enhancements. With a 28 STR will I still hit enough? At 16th I'd expect a lot of melee folks (those with mostly fighter levels) will be at STR 32. So my 2WF compares to them only if they're using PA or CE. I think I'm a bit behind comparing a switch to sword-n-board versus them turning their stance off. Hard to guess what 16th level content (and beyond) will be like, but want to be built as well as possible in thinking ahead. Ever a reason to go more than 3 Pal levels BTW, or does this lead to 17/3 at an eventual 20th cap?

2 rapiers might be a little better on this build, but I have a Drow rogue so rapier contention between characters is part of what I was trying to avoid here going Elf. (Dwarf doesn't help, I have a Dw tank.) Better to use a good looted weapon than try to trade or AH it, so longswords have a meta-game consideration vs. character optimization here in spreading usable weapon types for me.

Lastly for anyone who cares, flavor-wise in the "why elf?" sense: This would be a rebuild of my first successful DDO character -- my first to get capped and only char to hit 1750. Does ok still, but there's limits to usefulness of a 28 pt Elf ranger13/rogue1 ranged/finesse build. So I wanted another Elf Ranger, just 32 pt and built correctly for current end-game. Dropping the rogue skills for the Pally splash, to shore up the melee-focus. And he'll still range fine for the limited times it's actually usefull in current content...

Blazer
09-18-2007, 01:04 PM
2 Longswords is -4/-4 offset by the +3 between racial and follower enhancements. With a 28 STR will I still hit enough? At 16th I'd expect a lot of melee folks (those with mostly fighter levels) will be at STR 32. So my 2WF compares to them only if they're using PA or CE.

Will you hit enough with 28 STR? Quick number crunching says you'll end up with similar to-hit numbers if they're using PA or CE and you're using two longswords without PA. I calculated +23-24 (if 30 or 32 STR) for them vs +24 for you. This is before buffs and taking into account the + on the weapons; I just assumed they would be equal, for the purpose of this discussion.


Ever a reason to go more than 3 Pal levels BTW, or does this lead to 17/3 at an eventual 20th cap?

Well, that's an interesting call. Supposedly at 17th level rangers get Hide in Plain Sight as an ability. Who knows how it will be implemented, if it even is at all. If it stinks, or if it's not even given, 16/4 might be an interesting split since you'd get access to Divine Favor. With a respectable SP pool, having many casts of an additional +1/+1 might be nice. It'd be like carrying a bucketful of DF clickies.

sigtrent
09-18-2007, 02:16 PM
I have a character a lot like that, a bit more bow/dex based but the same class split and is an elf. I use rapiers over lognswords generaly but I have longswords.

It's a fun character, very versatile.

tc12
09-18-2007, 02:44 PM
Supposedly at 17th level rangers get Hide in Plain Sight as an ability. Who knows how it will be implemented, if it even is at all. If it stinks, or if it's not even given, 16/4 might be an interesting split since you'd get access to Divine Favor. With a respectable SP pool, having many casts of an additional +1/+1 might be nice. It'd be like carrying a bucketful of DF clickies.

Well there was no Camo at 13th. And given how little stealth matters in the game currently I'm dubious for what they could do with HIPS that would be a game-breaker. (Also think Rogues and crip strike, big whoop I don't feel I missed out having mulit'd my rogue...) I certainly would want the 4th +8 Fav Enemy at 15th, but after that it's questionable. I guess 13/3 for the next cap and wait and see.

Since you mentioned "a respectable SP pool", can any you or other SP-calc pros out there tell me how the Pal splash will affect my SP? (Meaning 11/3 versus what Ranger 14 would be.) I don't even know if Pal SP are based on CHA or WIS. If both are WIS, then I think I would go with the 17 STR and bump WIS to 11 and CHA to 12 from the stats I originally posted (9 & 11 respectively). Then 16 WIS is had with just a +5 item.

Oh, and is 18 CHA a reasonable target? I have a +6 CHA ring on my rogue that I could eventually pass down, as his UMD could go down 1 with little consequence. Or should I really try to reach CHA 20 then with Pal CHA I and a tome? (I know some folks can throw 1 or more tomes at all new chars, but I have none banked and loot one on average only every 2-3 months so far.) The real question I guess is how much value each 2 CHA brings to the Paladin benefits, so I know how much resources to commit to that versus other stats in this build.

tc12
09-18-2007, 02:54 PM
I have a character a lot like that, a bit more bow/dex based but the same class split and is an elf. I use rapiers over lognswords generaly but I have longswords.

It's a fun character, very versatile.

Ya, if my Drow rogue ends up with enough rapiers to share (haha), I could totally see rapiers here. They're just sooooo expensive in comparison as a fav weapon of 2 races, so trying to equip them on 2 characters is problematic for a casual gamer.

That would also be a great reason for a non-Drow option in the "Bardic Trapbuster" I put in your build request thread. :)

Blazer
09-18-2007, 03:03 PM
Since you mentioned "a respectable SP pool", can any you or other SP-calc pros out there tell me how the Pal splash will affect my SP? (Meaning 11/3 versus what Ranger 14 would be.) I don't even know if Pal SP are based on CHA or WIS. If both are WIS, then I think I would go with the 17 STR and bump WIS to 11 and CHA to 12 from the stats I originally posted (9 & 11 respectively). Then 16 WIS is had with just a +5 item.

Sadly, I am terrible at figuring out how the SP is calculated for multi-class characters who splash like this. However, I can tell you that both Pally and Ranger spells are based on WIS, so I'm guessing that you'll do just fine. Point of reference for you - my ranger with 16 WIS has 350+ SP with a Power IX ring and only 1 (maybe 2) tiers of the Ranger SP enhancement line. After you hand out some resists and barks, you can swap from your Magi scepter or whatever you use to boost your SP pool.


Oh, and is 18 CHA a reasonable target? I have a +6 CHA ring on my rogue that I could eventually pass down, as his UMD could go down 1 with little consequence. Or should I really try to reach CHA 20 then with Pal CHA I and a tome? (I know some folks can throw 1 or more tomes at all new chars, but I have none banked and loot one on average only every 2-3 months so far.) The real question I guess is how much value each 2 CHA brings to the Paladin benefits, so I know how much resources to commit to that versus other stats in this build.

18 CHA should be just fine for your build. Pally 3 will get you access to the Saves +1 aura, for a 2 total to all saves. Couple that with +4 from Divine Grace and you're at +6 across the board. Rangers only have will as their low save. With a 16 WIS, the pally aura and CHA modifier, you should be mid-teens before a Resistance item and buffs - more than enough for your build, honestly, considering your nice and high fort and reflex saves. Plus as an elf you get a bonus to saves vs enchantments anyway. The other benefits for you will be minimal - Smite Evil and Lay on Hands will be of little consequence to you since they will be pretty tiny.

spifflove
09-19-2007, 12:19 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116674

tc12
09-19-2007, 01:26 PM
So I rolled up Cnix (would be C'nix if the ' was allowed) this morning on Thelanis, endup up going with:

STR 17
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 8
WIS 9
CHA 12

With the last two matching items I have banked (+5 WIS helm, +6 CHA ring) for target 16 WIS & 18 CHA. Went with WF:slash to start, going with the longswords for now given IC is a ways away. Can always re-spec to Piercing later if I have more rapiers than longswords. Thanks to all who gave their input.

Spiff- Curious about PA. I can't see when it would be useful in a 2WF build, esp with non-light weapons. Can you really expect to hit with PA and the -4/-4 of dual longswords? Or is this when using a rapier offhand and/or against not-so-hard-to-hit stuff?

I was thinking Toughness at 3rd, along with Pal Tough I. This would be a decent HP boost in beginning through mid-levels. I likely would re-spec it out later as end-game 20-ish HPs isn't worth the feat.

TC

moonprophet
09-19-2007, 02:49 PM
If this is supposed to be a build that will eventually cast spells, you are going to be dissapointed. Temporary boosts like those from worn equipment do not count as the required WIS/INT/CHR needed to reach the minimum for spell casting. I could be wrong about this, but I don't think so.

Blazer
09-19-2007, 03:25 PM
If this is supposed to be a build that will eventually cast spells, you are going to be dissapointed. Temporary boosts like those from worn equipment do not count as the required WIS/INT/CHR needed to reach the minimum for spell casting. I could be wrong about this, but I don't think so.

You are wrong about this. Wearing an item to meet the level needed to cast a spell does work in DDO. PnP, so I've been told, is the opposite.

Bromm
09-20-2007, 10:30 AM
Yes in DDO you can use an item to cast spells in PnP you can not.

Just like we used to be able to use evasion with heavy armor i would not trust things not to be fixed so when i rolled this type of character i used

17 str
16 dex
10 con
9 int
11 wis
11 cha

+1 tomes are easy to come by and i'm also a dwarf so 10 con didnt hurt much.

Anyway i always take the safe road now it's only a matter of time till they fix the item thing though man would that make alot of people mad.

Cheers

Worst case you have to get a +3 Wisdom tome for your current build and with Storm Reaver only dropping +3 tomes in mod 5 and the ease of the quest you'll be able to get one soon enough.

tc12
09-20-2007, 11:21 AM
That was only an editing error anyway. The above shorted myself 2 points versus reality. It's 11 WIS / 12 CHA I started with. I had my comment right, that I was targetting 16 with only a +5 item, but hadn't updated the 9 after the copy/paste. Worst case a +2 tome would get me the level 3 spells if only base / level_pts / inherent counts. Really would only miss freedom of movement if level 4 wasn't accessible...