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Khurse
09-17-2007, 07:27 AM
Hi all

So a few spell questions
-Last night I was soloing a dungeon, made a mistake (plus had one of those
human bandit type makes 6 saves vs charm person/monster) got in some trouble and had to detonate a maxed/empowered fireball at my feet.
It did nothing to any of the human/elves/dwarves hacking at me and I died.

So- spell targetting. I notice my aoe spells (and dmg spells in general) have
missed tightly packed creatures surrounding me (point blank range) a number of times- I'd assume that the spell doesn't work unless it has a target except that I've also managed to hit a number of creatures I had not targeted with a fireball on occassion
-Is there any reason I sometimes hit tightily packed creatures, with nothing intervening to block the spell and sometimes it does nothing?

Most of the times when it seems to have no effect is time when they're surrounding me-is there some kind of minimum range on the FB?

Also charms-
When I charm a creature does it
A) Lose some fighting ability? Probably just my paranoia, but Minotaurs,trolls etc that I charm seem to lose to their uncharmed former comrades quite a bit

B) Do charmed craetures benefit from spells like haste? They seem to move faster, but don't seem to be swining faster (that I notice anyway)

teddok
09-17-2007, 07:35 AM
Well U stated a u were shoot at a rouge type.... That means evasion. They most likely dodged the fireball. Also it is an AOE, you do not need to target anything. Your charms can be buffed but be warned they turn on u and then ur screwed, especially when soloing.

Lorien_the_First_One
09-17-2007, 07:36 AM
They key to your first question is probably "bandit". Odds are they are rogues and L3(2?) rogues get evasion as a class feat. What that means is if they save they take no damage instead of the normal half damage.

Charmed creatures to benefit from all buffs. Unfortunately they AI is rather stupid and they rarely fight as well as they should (or even as well as they do when not charmed).

Tenkari_Rozahas
09-17-2007, 08:08 AM
also, if they are whacking at you and you cast a spell, yet it doesnt do anything but it looks like you casted it, more than likely you failed a concentration check and the spell didnt really go off.

teddok
09-17-2007, 08:11 AM
also, if they are whacking at you and you cast a spell, yet it doesnt do anything but it looks like you casted it, more than likely you failed a concentration check and the spell didnt really go off.

Ahhh to true. I forgot about that one.

transtemporal
09-17-2007, 06:51 PM
Last night I was soloing a dungeon, made a mistake (plus had one of those human bandit type makes 6 saves vs charm person/monster) got in some trouble and had to detonate a maxed/empowered fireball at my feet.
It did nothing to any of the human/elves/dwarves hacking at me and I died.

So- spell targetting. I notice my aoe spells (and dmg spells in general) have
missed tightly packed creatures surrounding me (point blank range) a number of times- I'd assume that the spell doesn't work unless it has a target except that I've also managed to hit a number of creatures I had not targeted with a fireball on occassion
-Is there any reason I sometimes hit tightily packed creatures, with nothing intervening to block the spell and sometimes it does nothing?

Most of the times when it seems to have no effect is time when they're surrounding me-is there some kind of minimum range on the FB?

As most other people have said, if they're rogues at high enough level they have evasion which means if they don't make the save they take half damage and if they make it they take none. For packs of rogues, use glitterdust. They'll still make their saves but at least they won't be sneak-attacking you cause they'll be blind.

Theres no "minimum range" for FB AFAIK.

The other thing it could be is lag. I've noticed a couple of times I've fireballed point blank surrounded by Kobolds in Kobold Assault and nothing happened so I fireballed again. Suddenly all the mobs just disappear. Vaporized apparently. :) Lag has a tendency to happen when there are lots of mobs attacking you which is probably why this happens when you're surrounded.


Also charms-
When I charm a creature does it
A) Lose some fighting ability? Probably just my paranoia, but Minotaurs,trolls etc that I charm seem to lose to their uncharmed former comrades quite a bit

B) Do charmed craetures benefit from spells like haste? They seem to move faster, but don't seem to be swining faster (that I notice anyway)

A) Charmed mobs don't lose any fighting ability AFAIK. Minotaurs, trolls, ogres, giants etc are just a bit dumb and they don't seem to have many tactics. Bugbears and hobgoblins will use trip quite a bit. And cultists are great - circling, strafing, casting spells, sneak-attacking their former comrades. I get a great kick out of seeing a troll shaman cursing his friends, or a high priest raining down flamestrike on his former comrades. I can almost hear his comrades yelling "Why Bob? I've known you since we were junior cultists! Aiiiiiieeee!".

Mua ha ha ha ha! Its those special moments that make the game worthwhile. :)

When your charmed mobs get killed, is he outnumbered by his former comrades? If so, you've found your reason.


B) Yes, your charmed mobs benefit from all the buffs you give them. Possibly the animations aren't keeping up but I can't say I've noticed. The best way to prove this is to keep your charmed pal buffed and hasted, then see how easily he takes you down when he becomes uncharmed!
:D

Mad_Bombardier
09-18-2007, 08:50 AM
The other thing it could be is lag. I've noticed a couple of times I've fireballed point blank surrounded by Kobolds in Kobold Assault and nothing happened so I fireballed again. Suddenly all the mobs just disappear. Vaporized apparently. :) Lag has a tendency to happen when there are lots of mobs attacking you which is probably why this happens when you're surrounded.Spells are affected by the same misfire bug as ranged and melee weapons. You click the button, it takes your mana, nothing happens. (Worse is when kobolds are on fire and aggro'd on you!, but have taken no damage :mad:). It happens to ranged weapons the most, with spells and melee being only minorly affected. You really have to pick a fast fire/cooldown spell and spam it to clearly see the misfire rate.

Missing_Minds
09-18-2007, 09:34 AM
I've been noticing fireballs misscasting in this manner a lot as of late. They REALLY need to fix this. It used to be that spells could be pretty much counted on. Anything as of late, forget it. let alone if your target dies the spell is flung straight up. That is bad coding. It should still target the same xy coord where it was to be thrown.

I mean how do you do it PnP? I target this spot (x,y) and cast. For any area effect spell, this is really how it should be done, even with a target. You just use the target's (x,y,z) spot for the point of impact, not the creature itself. Would make for better hitting honestly of area effect stuff.

kyrotep
10-02-2007, 05:39 AM
I don't know how many times I click on a mob in a large group of mobs and then hit a AOE CC. Before the spell goes off the one mob I click on runs off away from the group and is the only one effected by the CC.

Aranticus
10-02-2007, 09:08 AM
rogues get evasion at L2, rangers at L9

the misfire bug happens with potions too :(

MistressMayhem
10-02-2007, 09:10 AM
I don't know how many times I click on a mob in a large group of mobs and then hit a AOE CC. Before the spell goes off the one mob I click on runs off away from the group and is the only one effected by the CC.

Or worse, you target one mob who is surrounded by many other mobs and a tank takes that one out right as you cast your area affect spell. Fireball darts up towards the sky and the numerous other mobs (surrounding your dead mob) go unscaved. Grrrrrrr! That's ok though. Who doesn't love uselessly burning up mana? Not like that stuff runs out. (Sarcasm)

transtemporal
10-02-2007, 07:42 PM
Spells are affected by the same misfire bug as ranged and melee weapons. You click the button, it takes your mana, nothing happens. (Worse is when kobolds are on fire, but have taken no damage :mad:). It happens to ranged weapons the most, with spells and melee being only minorly affected. You really have to pick a fast fire/cooldown spell and spam it to clearly see the misfire rate.

Really?! Holy cr*p! I didn't know that. I get the misfiring fireball all the time but thought it was lag! It takes the mana and makes the missile sound but I don't see the detonation!

Come to think of it, I get it with any spell that requires an unobstructed path. Cone of Cold and Burning Hands are fine. Might have to test and experiment with them. Do people get the bug in clear areas with no obstructions? Ideally looking down on the enemy into a clear area?

I wonder whether obstructions or terrain in the way causes the spell to fail? It should sail towards that point anyway and prematurely detonate but maybe sometimes it just errors?

MistressMayhem
10-03-2007, 10:21 AM
Come to think of it, I get it with any spell that requires an unobstructed path. Cone of Cold and Burning Hands are fine. Might have to test and experiment with them. Do people get the bug in clear areas with no obstructions? Ideally looking down on the enemy into a clear area?

I wonder whether obstructions or terrain in the way causes the spell to fail? It should sail towards that point anyway and prematurely detonate but maybe sometimes it just errors?

I mostly see this with fireball a lot and while it doesn't occur too frequently (1 out of every 30 times maybe), it is extremely frustrating. I always have clear line of site and no obstructions, whether it be looking up at, down at, or straight at the targeted mob.

transtemporal
10-03-2007, 07:28 PM
I mostly see this with fireball a lot and while it doesn't occur too frequently (1 out of every 30 times maybe), it is extremely frustrating. I always have clear line of site and no obstructions, whether it be looking up at, down at, or straight at the targeted mob.

Interesting MM. The reason I ask about the obstructions is that the first time I really noticed it was on sorrowdusk fighting the wilderness ogres; the fireball would sail towards the ogres, no obstructions (that I noticed) but the fireball would fail to detonate. Sometimes it even shows them on fire but they don't take any damage! I guess this is probably happening 1 in 15-20 times for me when I'm using it heavily.

Thing is, everything in the game is just a bunch of textures, bounding boxes and clipping paths. Every time you cast a spell that requires line of sight, it draws a line between your bounding box and the targeted bounding box. Then you perform your casting animation. If that line is intersected by another piece of geometry at any time during your casting animation on a timer that says "if LoS is intersected for greater than x milliseconds", then you'll get the "target is obstructed" notification (I'm guessing, I did animation in another life).

Now this should work fine most of the time, but bounding boxes are pretty rudimentary and they actually overlap other bounding boxes and terrain geometry. It could be something as simple as the LoS being drawn between the bottom of your bounding box and the bottom of the targeted bounding box, with the targeted bounding box overlapping the terrain geometry and therefore putting your spell effect "out of bounds".

Will definitely have to play around with this I think. Sorry MM, kinda thinking out loud. :)

MistressMayhem
10-04-2007, 09:09 AM
Some of that was a bit over my head, but I think I get the jist of what you are saying. I didn't know that and it does make sense.

I should however clarify, the reason is see this occur mostly with fireball is because that is probably the spell I use most often. If I got a baddie running at me, I'll keep speed clicking that button until the mob is down. Since I do use this spell often and in such repetition (taking into account the brief cooldown period) is the reason I have noticed this happening. I clickie the fireball spell and the sorc goes through the motions, but nothing leaves my hand and the mana goes bye-bye. Normally, with the line of sight issue, I will still see a fireball leave my hand and detonate somewhere (even if it is not on or near the targeted mob).

Tenkari_Rozahas
10-04-2007, 09:57 AM
going through the spell motion and not getting anything off sounds like a mis-fire, if you have any ASF or Get hit, you have to make respective checks. to ASF or Concentration to see if the spell succeeds, if it doesnt you go through the motions and nothing happens and you loose the spell.

MistressMayhem
10-04-2007, 10:40 AM
going through the spell motion and not getting anything off sounds like a mis-fire, if you have any ASF or Get hit, you have to make respective checks. to ASF or Concentration to see if the spell succeeds, if it doesnt you go through the motions and nothing happens and you loose the spell.

That makes perfect sense. I know I've really beefed up her Concentration, but considering this does happen when I'm running backwards (away from mob), that would clearly explain it. Thanks.

transtemporal
10-04-2007, 03:21 PM
That makes perfect sense. I know I've really beefed up her Concentration, but considering this does happen when I'm running backwards (away from mob), that would clearly explain it. Thanks.

Yeah, except if its ASF or concentration failure, you'll see "Arcane Spell Failure!" or "Concentration check failure!" come up on screen. If you haven't seen that, then thats not the cause.

I tried to test this last night but I had horrible lag for some reason, so it wasn't really definitive. I'll wait til I get my new adsl connection.