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Allice
09-17-2007, 03:45 AM
Im quite fond of rogues, and you can ask any one i group with i love traps. What i would like to see is maybe a quest or event geared towards rogues. Kinda like Stealthy Reposesion but more trap bassed. Like the old world crucible. Were the point is to run through all the traps without dying. The trap boxes on the the other side of the traps and the like. I would personally have the quest set to just making it through alive as the point of the quest. Have solo-elite difficulties maybe add a few secret doors with mobs for those who arnt rogues =). I know this is alot like the crucible with the trap part and the swimming part. But i would like one that any level rogue can get to and try, one that possibly sets to the level of the player or group instead of being a specific level.

barecm
09-17-2007, 06:52 AM
The unfortunate reality is that Turbine will not develop quests for a single class. Although I would like to see some more quests where having a rogue is mandatory, it won't happen. Yes, there are times where having a rogue will be nice or easy or faster, but never required. What I can see are more chests that can only be accessed with a skillful rogue to pick the locks and traps similar to the one in Cabal. However, those type chests should be +1 lvl imho; probably won't happen either.

llevenbaxx
09-17-2007, 07:32 AM
...But hopefully they dont go completely nuts with the pure-rogue-trapmonkey type stuff or the one or two:rolleyes: of us who made MC rogues would be thinking it pretty lame. I was bummed out that my character with 10 levels of rogue, who stayed very dedicated to his craft(via equipment, enhancement and skill points) was numerically excluded(if only until next cap raise) from any of the rogue content.

Yes, I know its only one trap:) but you could also call it the first, especially since it did get some positive responses on the forums. Fact of the matter, that IS content made for not just one class, but one single build. Not a great idea imho.

smyter
09-17-2007, 07:33 AM
have you ever run cabal with the traps turned on?

llevenbaxx
09-17-2007, 07:46 AM
have you ever run cabal with the traps turned on?

How do you do that? Every time Ive ever been in there, they are all off, no matter the setting.

teddok
09-17-2007, 07:58 AM
How do you do that? Every time Ive ever been in there, they are all off, no matter the setting.

U kill that guy at the begining. He dies that traps are left on. U do lose out on a trap though.

Tenkari_Rozahas
09-17-2007, 08:02 AM
How do you do that? Every time Ive ever been in there, they are all off, no matter the setting.

i believe theres an NPC or something that will disable them for you.

Kalanth
09-17-2007, 08:33 AM
...But hopefully they dont go completely nuts with the pure-rogue-trapmonkey type stuff or the one or two:rolleyes: of us who made MC rogues would be thinking it pretty lame. I was bummed out that my character with 10 levels of rogue, who stayed very dedicated to his craft(via equipment, enhancement and skill points) was numerically excluded(if only until next cap raise) from any of the rogue content.


You were? I should keep an eye out for things like that because I can find every trap except for the mighty Cabal trap with my Rogue 10 / Barbarian 3.

I would like to see more trap heavy quests, and more quests that require stealth as well. Stealthy Repo is a good sneaker quest, and Maze of Madness is excellent for the traps, but combine the two and things would be more interesting in my opinion.

VonBek
09-17-2007, 09:07 AM
Stealty Repo stands as a good training run for sneaky & stealthy types. I have run it on elite with untwinked 2nd level Halflings. Casters and Melees can also run it, with durability, creativity, or a bit of both.

I would look forward to a series of quests along a similar path. The Quickfoot Gang have turned up in Cerulean Hills, Searing Heights. Their Hideout has toppled a few times, perhaps explaining why they make their presence known in that Vile Apothecary. Where will they, or their allies, next appear?

How would you design a follow-on quest for Stealth/Lockpick/Trapsmith types, without shutting out other play styles? What elements would you include besides traps and locks)? Can you a challenge for the "insidious cunning" bonus bypassing all mobs and not forcing conflict with oozeis and vermin?

Ragons
09-17-2007, 09:28 AM
The best quest for the rogue has to be 'Made to Order'. It is the only quest that I have seen that the party lets the rogue go first. The rogue not only disable the traps but also scouts ahead. I've seen people run through the traps but after setting off the land mines traps they usually are staring at 6 dwarvies. After a couple of time of running through the mines and hitting the dwarf parties, people learn the rogue should go first!
(I always enjoyed the 'Get Smart' doors at the end.)

BlueLightBandit
09-17-2007, 09:39 AM
Also is it Ghola Fan where there are a series of traps that you have to go through, to open a door, to fight some mobs, to get a key and hit a switch, to end up with the rest of the party staring blankly at you.

It can be done by something other than a rogue... but watching them take their time while you blitz through it is awfully fun.

llevenbaxx
09-17-2007, 11:05 AM
You were? I should keep an eye out for things like that because I can find every trap except for the mighty Cabal trap with my Rogue 10 / Barbarian 3.

I would like to see more trap heavy quests, and more quests that require stealth as well. Stealthy Repo is a good sneaker quest, and Maze of Madness is excellent for the traps, but combine the two and things would be more interesting in my opinion.

No, its just the one also. There was some praise from trapmonkies over this though, saying its "One trap in the whole game". Much like when the dragon raid came out it was just "One chest in the whole game" with the raid loot system. Just dont want these popping up all over.:)

Agree though, would also like to see some more content that had some more use for the other skills as I really like the class.

Tenkari_Rozahas
09-17-2007, 11:16 AM
next level cap increase that trap will probably be getting disabled all the time, cnaces are the max is litterally just 1 or 2 off from it XD

Allice
09-18-2007, 12:06 AM
I brought this up on the fact that rogues are one of the tougher classes to build. In all other games ive played rogues were weak tanks who would stand in the back and poke. This is the first game ive played were a rogue does what there sposed to do. They brave traps and sneak around for whatever personal drive they have. Stealthy reposession was good because it taught you to sneak and that sneak wasnt the just hide and walk foward ordeal it is in most games. In ddo you have to actually think when sneaking you have to stay in the shadows and away from the mobs. In games like EQ you can litterally walk over the mob and they wouldnt notice you. So you have to learn to sneak to become decent at it. As far as traps now a days it seems that the majority of them a rogue can just run through and have the cleric heal. There are some like in crucible that you cant just do that but even that one ive seen clerics do. I just think rogues should have a place to test there skills, based on there level, to see if there skills are up to par. Rogues are the only class were they have skills that they have to keep up to get a group through a mission, I could be wrong but thats what ive seen. Plus i really like running through traps.

Mercules
09-18-2007, 08:37 AM
And the Dead Shall Rise is another great Rogue quest. I suppose they figured if they didn't have them parties would just grab other classes because of all the undead. Notice, many undead heavy quests are also trap heavy giving the Rogue who is loosing his DPS a reason to come along for his other role.

The nice thing about And the Dead Shall Rise is that while most of those traps won't kill you, they will ruin your day. Getting blown off the ledge 3/4 of the way up the tower means a LONG run all the way back up passing through all those traps you ran through before. The quest doesn't make a Rogue a need, but it sure implies a need for one.

That being said these quests are fun for those of us who like playing Rogues. I'm sorry if our trapsmithing slows down the zergtastic fun, but traps are a major part of any D&D dungeon crawl. So, does anyone have phone number for the creators of Grimtooth's books? Is it Catalyst, I don't remember.

DSL
09-18-2007, 09:58 AM
And the Dead Shall Rise is another great Rogue quest. I suppose they figured if they didn't have them parties would just grab other classes because of all the undead. Notice, many undead heavy quests are also trap heavy giving the Rogue who is loosing his DPS a reason to come along for his other role.

The nice thing about And the Dead Shall Rise is that while most of those traps won't kill you, they will ruin your day. Getting blown off the ledge 3/4 of the way up the tower means a LONG run all the way back up passing through all those traps you ran through before. The quest doesn't make a Rogue a need, but it sure implies a need for one.

That being said these quests are fun for those of us who like playing Rogues. I'm sorry if our trapsmithing slows down the zergtastic fun, but traps are a major part of any D&D dungeon crawl. So, does anyone have phone number for the creators of Grimtooth's books? Is it Catalyst, I don't remember.

Ahhh, I fondly remember the Grimtooth books. Great fun indeed.

As someone who plays a rogue, I would not want to see quests that absolutely need one, but rather more traps like in And the Dead Shall Rise, which rely not so much on damage, but rather inconvenience. If the quest can be completed in half the time with a rogue disabling traps, then we will see parties more eager to bring them along for these sorts of runs (especially when dealing with undead). Wizard King is full of traps, for example, but rogues are routinely refused in PUG runs for this one, since most groups simply run through them.

However, no single class should ever really be mandatory for a quest, and even making specific classes nearly so should be done in moderation.

FluffyDucky
09-18-2007, 10:07 AM
A simple way to make groups more accepting of trap-smithing (instead of just running through traps and healing on the other side) is to speed up the process. Waiting for the sloooow search animation, then looking for the box you just 'found', then waiting for the slow disable device animation just takes to long to be worth it for most traps. I've had parties run through a trap, heal up, and take out the next room in the time it took me to find and disable a trap. And that was knowing where to look and finding/disabling it on the first try.

Besides speeding up the search and disable animations there are two other changes I would like to see that would speed up the process.

First, make the 'found trap' sound louder. Many times I have searched multiple times when I actually found the trap on the first try. Remember, I need to be able to hear the sound over the roaring flames, crashing blades, etc.

Second, once I have 'found' the trap do not make me search for the control box. I just made a successful roll, I should know where it is. Make it bright, sparkle, or even a big blue arrow pointing at the box. Making me hunt it down on the back of a column behind some spider webs when I supposedly just found it adds nothing but delays to a process that is already to slow.

VonBek
09-18-2007, 11:36 AM
A simple way to make groups more accepting of trap-smithing (instead of just running through traps and healing on the other side) is to speed up the process. ...

Given the pace of many groups, the basic idea seems pretty constructive.

Mercules
09-18-2007, 11:58 AM
First, make the 'found trap' sound louder. Many times I have searched multiple times when I actually found the trap on the first try. Remember, I need to be able to hear the sound over the roaring flames, crashing blades, etc.

I did that last night. I "spotted" the trap, so I searched it out. There was the trap, no box in sight so I ran back a bit, re-equipped my Spot goggles and moved forward till I got a spot notice again. I then Searched again from that spot. No box. Hmmmm... I put on the spot item again... Moved to the left and got the notice. Moved to the right, no notice. So I moved all the way over to the left of the hall and searched again. Still nothing. I ran through the trap, looked around. Nothing.

Now I was upset since my Search is HIGHER than my spot. I've never had a trap I could Spot, but couldn't Search. I am frustrated, double checking equipment when someone says, "Hey, it's over there in the corner." Yep... up and around the corner WAY away from the trap and I was able to pick it up with the initial Search to uncover the trap which is why I couldn't "find" it later or hear a successful Search sound.:D

The_Rocking_Dead
09-18-2007, 01:52 PM
We're exploring some options for making trapsmiths a little more useful. We want rogues to feel wanted, afterall. I agree, traps which waste a significant amount of time or resources ultimately do a better job of exhibiting a rogue's usefulness than one which poses a minor inconvenience.


I've got plenty of nasty little traps lined up for you in Module 5. I hope you'll enjoy running into them!

Mercules
09-18-2007, 02:06 PM
We're exploring some options for making trapsmiths a little more useful. We want rogues to feel wanted, afterall. I agree, traps which waste a significant amount of time or resources ultimately do a better job of exhibiting a rogue's usefulness than one which poses a minor inconvenience.


I've got plenty of nasty little traps lined up for you in Module 5. I hope you'll enjoy running into them!

THANK YOU. My favorite character to play is my Barb 1/Rogue 11. I'm going to be building a Rogue 1/Cleric X character with the new slots, and I just all together enjoy playing Roguish characters. I never want people to HAVE to invite me to a group, but giving them a small incentive and giving me some fun surprises when it comes to traps would be GREAT!

FluffyDucky
09-18-2007, 02:24 PM
We're exploring some options for making trapsmiths a little more useful. We want rogues to feel wanted, afterall. I agree, traps which waste a significant amount of time or resources ultimately do a better job of exhibiting a rogue's usefulness than one which poses a minor inconvenience.

I've got plenty of nasty little traps lined up for you in Module 5. I hope you'll enjoy running into them!

While naster traps mean rogues are more in demand for those specific quests I hope you consider my suggestions for speeding up trapsmithing as a way to make rogues more usefull in ALL quests. They are minor changes that IMO would make a big diffrence.

Hendrik
09-18-2007, 02:29 PM
We're exploring some options for making trapsmiths a little more useful. We want rogues to feel wanted, afterall. I agree, traps which waste a significant amount of time or resources ultimately do a better job of exhibiting a rogue's usefulness than one which poses a minor inconvenience.


I've got plenty of nasty little traps lined up for you in Module 5. I hope you'll enjoy running into them!


Count on it!

:)

Nice to see your still alive TRD. Been awhile since we heard from ya...

:)

Lorien_the_First_One
09-18-2007, 02:30 PM
We're exploring some options for making trapsmiths a little more useful. We want rogues to feel wanted, afterall. I agree, traps which waste a significant amount of time or resources ultimately do a better job of exhibiting a rogue's usefulness than one which poses a minor inconvenience.


I've got plenty of nasty little traps lined up for you in Module 5. I hope you'll enjoy running into them!

Thanks :)

The ongoing joke in the DDO world of Rogues is disabling traps is what you do AFTER the party runs through and is busy killing the mobs just past the trap.

No one waits.

Traps should HURT if you try to bypass them. Oh sure, we don't want to make things impossible without a rogue (one isn't always available) but it should hurt.

And there should be some optionals that NEED a rogue. No rogue? Fine, you just lost that optional mob and the associated xp & chest.




While naster traps mean rogues are more in demand for those specific quests I hope you consider my suggestions for speeding up trapsmithing as a way to make rogues more usefull in ALL quests. They are minor changes that IMO would make a big diffrence.

Fluffy is right. If you made the search animiation faster (it is PAINFULLY slow) it would be huge. A slight increase in the disable animation also wouldn't hurt but it isn't as bad.

Also a minor little nit... for those of us that haven't been in the dungeon as a rogue 100 times we first have to do the search animation, and then we have to look for real for the stupid trap when we hear it pop. Could we please, just in the Rogue's animation, have some big bright shiney highlight/arrow/something point out the location we just spent 10 seconds searching for?

And here's one people will probably find petty but it would make the rogue more efficient... Why do I even have to click the "disable" button? Why can't I just click on the trap to use it? There is no way to use a trap except disable it after all...

Palmetto
09-18-2007, 02:48 PM
We're exploring some options for making trapsmiths a little more useful. We want rogues to feel wanted, afterall. I agree, traps which waste a significant amount of time or resources ultimately do a better job of exhibiting a rogue's usefulness than one which poses a minor inconvenience.


I've got plenty of nasty little traps lined up for you in Module 5. I hope you'll enjoy running into them!
You are walking a very fine line that may result in creating quests that require certain classes to be in the party in order for the quest to be completed. I hope that you guys keep to your word by not crossing that line.

zyp
09-18-2007, 02:54 PM
I've got plenty of nasty little traps lined up for you in Module 5. I hope you'll enjoy running into them!

Considering the delicious array of new traps introduced in Mod 4, I have to say I'm drooling with anticipation for the new traps in Mod 5. You're an evil, evil genius RD:)

Hence
09-18-2007, 02:55 PM
What about other things Rogues can do? Like sneak and hide?

There should be multiple spots in quests, where a stealthy rogue can sneak past some guards to pull a lever for the rest of the party. Don't make this a necessity of the quest, just an easier way to get through the quest.

Quests like, "Offering of Blood" should include a hide/sneak mode when you take the bowl off of the pedestal at the beginning. If you take the bowl and immediatly sneak, or be sneaking when you take the bowl, you should be able to sneak through the rest of the dungeon without getting agro. It might be a game of patience in most circumstances, but it would be a fun mechanic nonetheless.

Rogues should be allowed an alternative way to complete quests then just hack-n-slash. Or alternative ways of helping a party complete a quest faster and easier besides just "trap-monkey".

ArkoHighStar
09-18-2007, 02:56 PM
Thanks :)

The ongoing joke in the DDO world of Rogues is disabling traps is what you do AFTER the party runs through and is busy killing the mobs just past the trap.

No one waits.

Traps should HURT if you try to bypass them. Oh sure, we don't want to make things impossible without a rogue (one isn't always available) but it should hurt.

And there should be some optionals that NEED a rogue. No rogue? Fine, you just lost that optional mob and the associated xp & chest.





Fluffy is right. If you made the search animiation faster (it is PAINFULLY slow) it would be huge. A slight increase in the disable animation also wouldn't hurt but it isn't as bad.

Also a minor little nit... for those of us that haven't been in the dungeon as a rogue 100 times we first have to do the search animation, and then we have to look for real for the stupid trap when we hear it pop. Could we please, just in the Rogue's animation, have some big bright shiney highlight/arrow/something point out the location we just spent 10 seconds searching for?

And here's one people will probably find petty but it would make the rogue more efficient... Why do I even have to click the "disable" button? Why can't I just click on the trap to use it? There is no way to use a trap except disable it after all...

I think we should go beyond that, if you spot the trap, the system should make an automatic search check, if you beat the dc by a certain amount you don't need to make a search action, if you don't then you make the regular search.
Clicking on the box to disable could be troublesome as you might disable the trap when you don't want to, clicking on the disable button is very quick, but I agree the animation is too slow

Gratch
09-18-2007, 03:02 PM
You are walking a very fine line that may result in creating quests that require certain classes to be in the party in order for the quest to be completed. I hope that you guys keep to your word by not crossing that line.

I mostly just want to hear something along these lines:

Rogue: Trap
Fighter: Who cares, I have 500 hp, I'm pushing through.
Rogue: Searching - maybe the cleric will wait.
Fighter: Arghghh... the floor fell in... I'm falling a really long ways. I'm okay... what's that ahead...?
Rogue: I found the box... but I don't know how that will help given you just sprung the floor.
FIghter. There's mindlflayers down here and I'm stunned. ARGGHHH... there's oozes coming up while he's sucking my brain out and I'm wielding the sword of shadows. I can see it's durability dropping.... AERREREGGGHHH...
Rogue: So can we stop next time I say trap?

Please Rocking... just a few one room branching paths that don't have to be traversed if the trap is found. So that you can do it without a rogue... you just might not want to... Blowing toons into blades sort of works... but blowing them into a beholder room... even better.

We had a bunch of threads on trap types at one point... but usually after the first run through, people know how to avoid them without *much* pain... let's change that in a place or two.

Mercules
09-18-2007, 03:06 PM
And there should be some optionals that NEED a rogue. No rogue? Fine, you just lost that optional mob and the associated xp & chest. From experience it would have to be a pretty good chest and not otherwise difficult to get to or people will just run PoP for chests and ignore that one. A possible named item spawning there might do it. The XP bonus for optionals is a joke right now. One run of PoP is how many optionals worth of XP?





Fluffy is right. If you made the search animiation faster (it is PAINFULLY slow) it would be huge. A slight increase in the disable animation also wouldn't hurt but it isn't as bad.

Also a minor little nit... for those of us that haven't been in the dungeon as a rogue 100 times we first have to do the search animation, and then we have to look for real for the stupid trap when we hear it pop. Could we please, just in the Rogue's animation, have some big bright shiney highlight/arrow/something point out the location we just spent 10 seconds searching for?

And here's one people will probably find petty but it would make the rogue more efficient... Why do I even have to click the "disable" button? Why can't I just click on the trap to use it? There is no way to use a trap except disable it after all...

I have to agree. I already have to swap several equipment pieces and search before I disable the trap.

Mad_Bombardier
09-18-2007, 03:10 PM
Please Rocking... just a few one room branching paths that don't have to be traversed if the trap is found. So that you can do it without a rogue... you just might not want to... Blowing toons into blades sort of works... but blowing them into a beholder room... even better.

We had a bunch of threads on trap types at one point... but usually after the first run through, people know how to avoid them without *much* pain... let's change that in a place or two.Two words: Teleport traps. You rush through get sent "somewhere" from which you cannot escape. The party must rescue you. Although, that punishes the party (being down 1 man) for your stupid mistakes. :(

Better still; Pit of Acid. You fall in, there's no way out except to wait as the pit fills with acid. You swim in the Acid and when the level rises high enough, you can reach the edge to jump out. Not only do you take 10d6 acid pool damage as the acid rises, but so does all of your non-blueshine equipment. :eek: Now, THAT'S evil to the zerger. :D

Palmetto
09-18-2007, 03:15 PM
I mostly just want to hear something along these lines:

Rogue: Trap
Fighter: Who cares, I have 500 hp, I'm pushing through.
Rogue: Searching - maybe the cleric will wait.
Fighter: Arghghh... the floor fell in... I'm falling a really long ways. I'm okay... what's that ahead...?
Rogue: I found the box... but I don't know how that will help given you just sprung the floor.
FIghter. There's mindlflayers down here and I'm stunned. ARGGHHH... there's oozes coming up while he's sucking my brain out and I'm wielding the sword of shadows. I can see it's durability dropping.... AERREREGGGHHH...
Rogue: So can we stop next time I say trap?

Please Rocking... just a few one room branching paths that don't have to be traversed if the trap is found. So that you can do it without a rogue... you just might not want to... Blowing toons into blades sort of works... but blowing them into a beholder room... even better.

We had a bunch of threads on trap types at one point... but usually after the first run through, people know how to avoid them without *much* pain... let's change that in a place or two.
In you scenario if the quest can still be completed - just much more painfully - then by all means create it. However, if the quest was just ruined by the idiot that fell through the floor then I'll have to pass.

ArkoHighStar
09-18-2007, 03:23 PM
You are walking a very fine line that may result in creating quests that require certain classes to be in the party in order for the quest to be completed. I hope that you guys keep to your word by not crossing that line.

I disagree Palmetto there should be certain quests where having a rogue gives you an advantage. They should be completable without a rogue but it should cost you something, ie nice big bits of damage, use of mana to protect people from the effects etc.

I would love to see a room with a lava lake with small islands, that without a rogue would require people to heal up as they go stopping at the islands, however a rogue could disable a device lowering a bridge. Or a long trap filled hallway with the box at the end that holds a +1 chest, or a lever to open a shortcut etc.

Palmetto
09-18-2007, 03:27 PM
I disagree Palmetto there should be certain quests where having a rogue gives you an advantage. They should be completable without a rogue but it should cost you something, ie nice big bits of damage, use of mana to protect people from the effects etc.

I would love to see a room with a lava lake with small islands, that without a rogue would require people to heal up as they go stopping at the islands, however a rogue could disable a device lowering a bridge. Or a long trap filled hallway with the box at the end that holds a +1 chest, or a lever to open a shortcut etc.
Advantage? Absolutely, but not required for completion.

That's what I'm talking about!!!! :D

Mercules
09-18-2007, 03:28 PM
So that you can do it without a rogue... you just might not want to... Blowing toons into blades sort of works... but blowing them into a beholder room... even better.

The first time I ran through And the Dead Shall Rise on my Rogue I was trying to keep towards the front of the party but one Fighter kept getting ahead. I had no more than said, "You might want to let me go first." than we hit one of the landings and the Fighter was blown through the blades and into open space. He splatted as he "Couldn't find my FF device fast enough." It was priceless.

I was sad he died from it, but it was just as likely he wouldn't and it would have just been an inconvenience to him to run back through.

Emili
09-18-2007, 03:38 PM
I mostly just want to hear something along these lines:

Rogue: Trap
Fighter: Who cares, I have 500 hp, I'm pushing through.
Rogue: Searching - maybe the cleric will wait.
Fighter: Arghghh... the floor fell in... I'm falling a really long ways. I'm okay... what's that ahead...?
Rogue: I found the box... but I don't know how that will help given you just sprung the floor.
FIghter. There's mindlflayers down here and I'm stunned. ARGGHHH... there's oozes coming up while he's sucking my brain out and I'm wielding the sword of shadows. I can see it's durability dropping.... AERREREGGGHHH...
Rogue: So can we stop next time I say trap?

Please Rocking... just a few one room branching paths that don't have to be traversed if the trap is found. So that you can do it without a rogue... you just might not want to... Blowing toons into blades sort of works... but blowing them into a beholder room... even better.

We had a bunch of threads on trap types at one point... but usually after the first run through, people know how to avoid them without *much* pain... let's change that in a place or two.

Well, on the same token, what if they required everyone in a quest to have 500hp, or 34 cha? Point being requiring a class is not a good thing.

I personaly do not like the idea of extremes - even in elite ie. the cabal chest - why should a rogue be a complete trap monkey or lock smith etc... they're much more that that. I do not see them putting in 44 str switches or 34 cha runes in elite content quests, why single out the rogue class and make them near max Search and Disable Device plus full buffs to have any chance at getting a trap box? That's crazy. Think about it. There should be less extreme (min/max) and the well rounded should be the more versitle class who survives the best - not the other way around. Building a barb with 500hp should cost you a ton in offensive capability, Building a complete trap monkey does already... I'd personally like to see builds at the extreme rendered incapable of doing anything outside the point of thier extremes. Make all stats count for something... that includes all skills and saves.

Mercules
09-18-2007, 03:41 PM
Well, on the same token, what if they required everyone in a quest to have 500hp, or 34 cha? Point being requiring a class is not a good thing.

We could easily make the claim that the extreme nature of some of the mobs is starting to make a 300 HP tank and a spam healing Cleric a need for some of the quests.

Charmazal
09-18-2007, 03:44 PM
Speed up the search skill.

Lorien_the_First_One
09-18-2007, 03:52 PM
Two words: Teleport traps. You rush through get sent "somewhere" from which you cannot escape. The party must rescue you. Although, that punishes the party (being down 1 man) for your stupid mistakes. :(

Better still; Pit of Acid. You fall in, there's no way out except to wait as the pit fills with acid. You swim in the Acid and when the level rises high enough, you can reach the edge to jump out. Not only do you take 10d6 acid pool damage as the acid rises, but so does all of your non-blueshine equipment. :eek: Now, THAT'S evil to the zerger. :D

Heh... you just reminded me of two of my favorite D&D traps from 3.0. Both were from the same Wizard's dungeon (who's name now escapes me).

You were in a tower that was very very very high up. The first had floor traps that when sprung dropped you through a tunnel covered in razer sharp blades (damage while falling) and then tossed you out of the side of the tower where you would probably plumet to your death (FF not so common as it is here...). If you managed to arrest the fall in the chute with a particular saving throw you took more damage from the blades while trying to climb back up. Barb and wizard fell... Barb splatted, Wizard cast FF and lived (not by much, blades almost killed him). One retreat to get the body and a raise dead later (she didn't really want to be that level anyway) we were back on track for trap number two...

Second trap was a teleporter, just like you say. Once again, Barb decided to investigate the odd area while the rogue was searching elsewhere in the room. Barb found himself in another room visiting half a dozen bad asses. The gong that accompanied the transport had us enjoying more monsters with our lead killer missing.

Chelsa
09-18-2007, 03:57 PM
I think there should be traps that will just flat out kill people. Sure you can run through it or however you get by it, but without the rogue you just die. The only cost will be time and resources.

Ustice
09-18-2007, 03:58 PM
With the new collection tech, we should have a lot more variety in puzzles/traps (I sort of think of them together).

Raithe
09-18-2007, 05:17 PM
We're exploring some options for making trapsmiths a little more useful. We want rogues to feel wanted, afterall. I agree, traps which waste a significant amount of time or resources ultimately do a better job of exhibiting a rogue's usefulness than one which poses a minor inconvenience.

We don't need quests designed for "making trapsmiths a little more useful" or quests that allow "rogues to feel wanted." What we need are traps that make sense and do a reasonable job of protecting whatever they are meant to protect - or traps that change the status of the inhabitants of a dungeon to "wary." Blade and elemental traps in the middle of well traveled corridors and doorways feel completely contrived, for example.

Make the traps seem real, and the rogue's role in a party becomes more real.


While naster traps mean rogues are more in demand for those specific quests I hope you consider my suggestions for speeding up trapsmithing as a way to make rogues more usefull in ALL quests. They are minor changes that IMO would make a big diffrence.

Trapsmithing used to be much faster because it didn't require buffing. Hit a spot warning, hit the search button, disable. Quick and clean. Now it is an ugly mess of 3 people run into a trap that no one can spot, equip, buff, buff, buff, boost, search, equip, disable. Get rid of all the intermediary steps and the mechanics don't have to change. Leave them in and the mechanics don't matter, it's going to be ugly regardless.


Well, on the same token, what if they required everyone in a quest to have 500hp, or 34 cha? Point being requiring a class is not a good thing.

I personaly do not like the idea of extremes - even in elite ie. the cabal chest - why should a rogue be a complete trap monkey or lock smith etc... they're much more that that. I do not see them putting in 44 str switches or 34 cha runes in elite content quests, why single out the rogue class and make them near max Search and Disable Device plus full buffs to have any chance at getting a trap box? That's crazy.

The developers shot themselves in the foot with many of the incomprehensible numbers they have bestowed on standard mobs and run-of-the-mill traps. I sometimes wonder if they might actually all be insane...

Snike
09-18-2007, 05:34 PM
I agree, traps which waste a significant amount of time or resources ultimately do a better job of exhibiting a rogue's usefulness than one which poses a minor inconvenience.

Search animation is too long!!

Zandorph
09-18-2007, 05:40 PM
I like the idea of optionals being required for certain parties. A good example I would give is the idea of the pit trap. Have the floor drop out (the whole floor in the room, don't leave us "rubble" to traverse the side on) and make the passage underneath follow the hall on top. Then put the only ladder up along with a switch that makes the above floor fall out (to make it even more punishing have those it falls on take damage:) ). When the party climbs up the ladder, they turn around and see the chest that they would have gotten if whoever didn't zerg blindly into the room and make them take the alternate route. And don't forget to make the chest worth it so people will watch where they step.

I would hope that this idea could be easily implemented if they ever get around to having random trap locations. That would teach us sword jocks to listen and stay back.:)

Gratch
09-18-2007, 05:46 PM
In you scenario if the quest can still be completed - just much more painfully - then by all means create it. However, if the quest was just ruined by the idiot that fell through the floor then I'll have to pass.

My example and use of the word "Branching" was meant to convey that you can do it the easy rogue disabling way or you end up in the trap room and have to crawl, ladder, run through a long hallway up to the next area.

The original and changed and then hotly debated "Rogue" quest was South 1 & 2. At one point you needed a rogue to unlock the door as there was no key (or knock spell). Then they put in a key in a random location on the map. So either you have someone who can lockpick or you have to wander all over looking for the chest with the key. Same as the Ice Flensers guarding the second key.

These were good "rogue using their unlock skill" to make things easier quests. I don't want every quest to be like these, but maybe a few more. One per 20? Some that use hide/sneak, unlock, disable, bluff, etc. (I totally need to pump up my etc skill. I hear it helps with lootz.)

The 61 dc on elite Cabal for One chest... that's more about making a rogue that does one thing really really well at the cost of way too many AP's or feats.

Kalanth
09-18-2007, 06:15 PM
You know, now that I think about it, you guys need to fix the NPC's in Gwylan's in a couple areas. Each time I go in there, regardless of the setting, I always let the elves trigger the force and sonic traps, then kill themselves running back through them to get to me. Don't you think that elf would realize that they just sprung a deadly trap?

LeLoric
09-18-2007, 06:27 PM
How bout brain washing traps that strip sp if you run through em.

Kalanth
09-18-2007, 06:30 PM
How bout brain washing traps that strip sp if you run through em.

Then all the fighters / rogues / barbarians would be unaffected (and you could make an argument that Rangers and Paladins would not be bothered as well). Brainwashing traps that dominate the character, possibly turning them into an NPC for 20 - 30 seconds would be interesting though. :)

SneakThief
09-18-2007, 06:57 PM
As someone that plays many rogues, I like many of the suggestions.

-Speeding up search. Possibly make the speed based on the search skill (higher=faster).

-I also liked the idea of auto-finding the trap if you beat the spot DC and then beat the search DC by some number(10, 20, etc).

-Oh and making the trap brighter and flashier when found so that we dont have to go looking for it again! Love that one!

-Of course any really deadly traps that are optional and get the party access to EXTRA stuff (names, chests, etc) are great!

- I dont now about clicking on the trap to disable it, but a long time ago, some did suggest being able to hotbar tools and have those useable for both traps and locks, I liked that one.

DSL
09-18-2007, 07:06 PM
We don't need quests designed for "making trapsmiths a little more useful" or quests that allow "rogues to feel wanted." What we need are traps that make sense and do a reasonable job of protecting whatever they are meant to protect - or traps that change the status of the inhabitants of a dungeon to "wary." Blade and elemental traps in the middle of well traveled corridors and doorways feel completely contrived, for example.

Make the traps seem real, and the rogue's role in a party becomes more real.

These two ideas do go hand in hand. A basic damage trap in a hallway with nothing else around ultimately does little except use up a bit of cleric SP or wand charges/potions. The best traps either work with the inhabitants or else do something more to stop interlopers than a bit of damage that's insufficient to kill anything the creatures beyond it couldn't easily kill on their own.

A few examples:

A trap that dumps intruders into a pit while archers rain arrows down from above.

A large-scale fire trap in a room full of efreeti or fire mephits, where anyone attempting to melee them must deal with the damage (while the MOBs of course are unharmed). The box would be on the other side of the room, allowing a rogue to sneak over and disable it before anything is aggro'd.

A basic "gong" trap in a hallway that alerts the next room's denizens of intruders, allowing them to buff up and start launching ranged attacks.




Trapsmithing used to be much faster because it didn't require buffing. Hit a spot warning, hit the search button, disable. Quick and clean. Now it is an ugly mess of 3 people run into a trap that no one can spot, equip, buff, buff, buff, boost, search, equip, disable. Get rid of all the intermediary steps and the mechanics don't have to change. Leave them in and the mechanics don't matter, it's going to be ugly regardless.

There is truth here: the switching around of spot/search/disable items is not only irritating, but also adds to the time involved, nevermind activating clickies! Nevertheless, I have to agree with Lorien that the disable button is basically redundant, as there is in fact no other way to "use" a trap box (unless they want to allow rogues at some point to re-arm them).

Canuckalhead
09-18-2007, 07:07 PM
I've got plenty of nasty little traps lined up for you in Module 5. I hope you'll enjoy running into them!

MORE GREASE!!! :D

Mercules
09-18-2007, 09:37 PM
I have to agree with Lorien that the disable button is basically redundant, as there is in fact no other way to "use" a trap box (unless they want to allow rogues at some point to re-arm them).

Re-arm traps? You mean like in PnP? :)

Allice
09-19-2007, 02:36 AM
My Idea for a possible rogue based quest was more for something that allows rogues to test out there skills, and have fun. My favorite quest as a rogue is the grey moon series because of the traps on the bridge. Its a rush to run through them and take little to no damage. Honestly i love alot of the ideas here , like the one about double clicking the boxes to disarm them. I just would love to be able to go to a place and run through traps without worrying through mobs. Being that rogues have a harder time against mobs i thought this may be fun. Maybe completing the quest would not get you exp or favor but something like + X theives tools the mod depending on how well you did. And yes im very excided about the traps in mod 5, I have not had the pleasure of using my rogues in mod 4 i kinda got caught up on my cleric ;P . I have heard of this cabal trap and would really love to test my skills on it. Now that my cleric is 14 im going to remake my rogue a 32 build elf and see what i can do with her. Though she will be my 4th rogue =P. Any ways love the ideas keep them coming please i love seeing what other people would like done with the rogue class because i think out of all of them the the rogue the most entertaining.

VonBek
09-19-2007, 05:46 AM
My Idea for a possible rogue based quest was more for something that allows rogues to test out there skills, and have fun.

That would be great. Adventure certainly includes sneaking, running, chasing, subterfuge and misbehaving. All of these can build tension for an in-game thrill.

The_Rocking_Dead
09-19-2007, 05:55 PM
One of the reasons we have traps that require a super high skill to beat the DC, is to offer a reward to people who do stick with the rogue class, pump a lot of points into their skills, and keep around items that aid them in their pursuit of treasure. There aren't many of these traps in the game, and they tend to be off the beaten path. This is our way of letting those players feel special. They make a sacrifice to attain that level of mastery, so they get the bonus. If we didn't cater to them once in a while, they would feel like it was an absolute waste to dedicate themselves so.

It's not that you're getting less treasure because you don't have a rogue who can get at it, you're just not getting bonus treasure. There's a conceptual difference in that.


Traps serve several purposes, and there may even be some overlap depending on the trap:

1: To protect something that needs protecting, like treasure or critical objectives. The Cabal For One treasure trap is an example of this. The Spike trap in Haywire's Foundry is another.

2. To slow you down. When the enemy knows you're coming, they look for a way to give themselves more time to prepare. In the metagame sense, this helps prevent players from merely zerging through content. Good examples include the telekenesis traps in And the Dead Shall Rise, and the mines in Made to Order.

3. To keep you on your toes. These traps tend not to do a lot of damage, but they do keep you moving, which may force less organized parties into making costly mistakes. The force trap security system in The Pit stands out for this, as well do many generic randomized traps.

4. As a general "Keep Out" mechanism. Your enemies don't want you traipsing about their lairs, killing their buddies and stealing their loot. To deter you, they have traps set up where you least expect them, such as in the middle of a hallway. They tend to know where their own traps are, and how to avoid them. These traps are there simply to impede you, in the hopes that some of you will die, or otherwise be turned away. From a pure gameplay standpoint, they are meant largely to waste your resources if you don't take adequate steps to avoid them, such as bringing a rogue. A good example of this one would be the Dart trap in Hiding in Plain Sight, or the big Fire trap in Shan To Kor.



Lastly, I hear your concerns over the search and disable actions, especially in regards to the fact that people are willing to suck up the damage to save a little time. All I can say is that I'll bring it up for discussion and we'll see if anything comes of it.

ahpook
09-19-2007, 06:17 PM
One of the reasons we have traps that require a super high skill to beat the DC, is to offer a reward to people who do stick with the rogue class, pump a lot of points into their skills, and keep around items that aid them in their pursuit of treasure. There aren't many of these traps in the game, and they tend to be off the beaten path. This is our way of letting those players feel special. They make a sacrifice to attain that level of mastery, so they get the bonus. If we didn't cater to them once in a while, they would feel like it was an absolute waste to dedicate themselves so.

It's not that you're getting less treasure because you don't have a rogue who can get at it, you're just not getting bonus treasure. There's a conceptual difference in that.

Sounds good and I agree with your intent. But I have one nitpick if we are talking about the cabal trap. All the lairs have 3 chests (except troll :)). Cabal has 3 chests, except that you need to have a very rare rogue build to get the 3rd. So, in fact, you ARE getting less compared to every other comparable quest (the gianthold lairs). And if you have a high level rogue and chose to disable all the other traps (since you have a great rogue) you in fact lose a chest and drop to 2. Except if the rogue is good enough for the all the traps except the one on that chest. Then you only get 1.

So your claim does not really apply very well to this chest. Now if this wicked trap was in the troll lair, what you say would make perfect sense.



...

Lastly, I hear your concerns over the search and disable actions, especially in regards to the fact that people are willing to suck up the damage to save a little time. All I can say is that I'll bring it up for discussion and we'll see if anything comes of it.

Awesome stuff. Thanks for all your great traps and listening to us.

VonBek
09-19-2007, 07:42 PM
Lastly, I hear your concerns over the search and disable actions, especially in regards to the fact that people are willing to suck up the damage to save a little time. All I can say is that I'll bring it up for discussion and we'll see if anything comes of it.

Thanks, and here's hoping.

Snike
09-19-2007, 08:29 PM
They make a sacrifice to attain that level of mastery, so they get the bonus. If we didn't cater to them once in a while, they would feel like it was an absolute waste to dedicate themselves so.


Whoot! Can Perform/Bluff/Diplomacy/Tumble/Jump/Spot/Listen/Swim/Repair/Heal at 60+ mean something too?

Lorien_the_First_One
09-19-2007, 11:52 PM
With the new collection tech, we should have a lot more variety in puzzles/traps (I sort of think of them together).

huh? what does picking up fungus have to do with traps and puzzels?

Falco_Easts
09-20-2007, 12:24 AM
Double traps. One with a low search DC and one with high. Rogue gets warning, searches, finds low trap, disables and gives the all clear. Party goes through and bang, main trap strikes.

Barrier traps. Zergers run through and a wall comes down isolating them from the party. Could be used to trap them in a confined cell until the party finds a lever to release the door later the quest.

Main wish is random trap and box placement though.

Cuchilo
09-20-2007, 12:27 AM
One of the reasons we have traps that require a super high skill to beat the DC, is to offer a reward to people who do stick with the rogue class, pump a lot of points into their skills, and keep around items that aid them in their pursuit of treasure. There aren't many of these traps in the game, and they tend to be off the beaten path. This is our way of letting those players feel special. They make a sacrifice to attain that level of mastery, so they get the bonus. If we didn't cater to them once in a while, they would feel like it was an absolute waste to dedicate themselves so.

Unfortunately, this isn't really true. I used to play a straight rogue, primarily for our smallish guild to have a competent trap and door specialist when needed. I rerolled him just before Mod4 went live as a Rogue1/Ranger11(now 13). He has maximum ranks in spot, search, disable and open locks, a +6 Int item and +13 items for all skills. He is quite as capable as almost all pure rogues at finding, disabling and unlocking anything in the game. The Cabal trap is a little different, but that is the only one I haven't been able to handle. Add the Wild Instincts spell, and a multi class with 1 level of rogue gets the warm fuzzy feeling you want the pure dedicated rogues to get.

Treerat
09-20-2007, 12:44 AM
Three things I'll put down about traps in DDO.

1) Randomize where the traps are, what type they are, and where the box is.

Right now its almost impossible to be a rogue and not have someone start jumping up and down in front of the (hidden) box before you even get in range to search for it. The same goes for people saying "need these buffs here" and "spike trap here" before you even can see where the trap they're describing would be. If the traps are random in location, type, and box location it makes memorizing a quest letter-perfect much less likely. That in turns keeps a little bit of fear (and replayability) in the quest.

This also has the nice effect of making a rogue-heavy build (if not a pure rogue) and combinations of complementary builds (ex. wizard/ rogue for search & disable partnered with a high-spot & sneak ranger to sense the traps without aggroing monsters) more useful. We already see some of this when groups at the proper level (and not twinked to the nines) run through the few quests with random traps (one of the LotD, VoN2, Hiding in Plain Sight, etc).

2) Increase the variety of effects traps have.

Most traps are the lethal/ damage type right now and frankly unless the damage is absolutely insane (ie Cabal chest trap on elite) such that death is 99% assured for the 500 hp barbarian, they're at best minor annoyances to the group. What we need are a greater variety of traps that create real problems for the entire party without necessarily killing (or even directly harming) anyone. The falling-floor trap above is a great example (if the dungeon makes proper use of the trap). Say after the floor falls away, the only way forward is through a maze-like series of interconnected vertical shafts (possibly laced with more traditional traps) that will add a minimum of say an hour to the quest. Also make where the "falling floor" traps are located random to keep people from memorizing the "one true route" through them. Now we have a quest that while a rogue might not be required to finish it, having one (or the mix of skills & spells in the group that can duplicate a rogue) sure makes the quest more viable.

Another thing would be traps that instead of doing any damage, have effects like the rooms in Prison of the Planes, or that trigger other effects. Traps that trigger a room/ corridor-wide effects that suppress (or dispel) characters buffs, negate or severely reduce the effectiveness of the "flavor of the month" spell or weapon effect, and traps that dump additional monster onto the party (ex. a trap that unleashes a horde of rust monsters when the group is fighting a large group of flesh renders). The idea being not as much that groups can't "brute force" their way through the quests, as that the choice is either give a few minutes thought to traps (ie bring a rogue or people who have some rogue-ish abilities) or suffer serious delays, costs, and terror when your 500hp barbarian has no haste, no blur, the heals are coming at 25% effectiveness, and you don't have the option to use a Power 5 weapon on the monster.

3) Greater diversity in how and when traps trigger, and where the area they affect is.

One thing I've noticed with all the current traps, is that they can be defeated by the simple method of sending someone with excessive reflex saves & evasion, or massive hit points, through first. The reason is because all traps currently activate right after the first person hits the trigger. One way to bring back a little fear about running down a corridor you don't know is to add the element of (random) trigger types, differing delays to the trigger, and not always having the trap affecting the trigger area.

For example: what if instead of triggering right after the 30+ reflex & evasion melee goes past, a trap triggers 10 seconds after they're past and it affects the area 20 feet behind the trigger (which is at a door). Why this becomes more dangerous is that this way after the group is told "no traps" by the spot-less bait, as they move forward the combination of time-delay and set-back distance mean Tail-End Charlie (usually the low-reflex cleric or a caster) is the one having to face the DC 30+ "save or become sliced squishy" trap and not the 300 hp "I only fail on a 1" trap bait. This way the group has to either be sure to bring someone along with the ability to sense (if not find) the traps, move forward very slowly, or risk the losing "random" group members to traps.

Dane_McArdy
09-20-2007, 05:54 AM
I think traps that have nasty effects that aren't normal everyday things, like curses and such that can be removed would be awesome.

Imagine a trap that sprays the party with an oily substance that doesn't wipe off so easily. It could be magical in nature. If a melee class gets hit, it causes monsters to avoid them and switch targets. If a caster class gets hit, it attracks monsters to them.

Sure in time the oil would wear off. But imagine the fun while it's on the people.

Traps that people don't want to get hit by would really make people let the rogue do their job.

Snike
09-20-2007, 06:10 AM
As a rogue, I wince everytime it takes me 15 seconds to make a search and disable animation. Some people complain they have to stand still for 10 seconds to get thier crack, err haste, let alone waste 15seconds to avoid 40 damage.

Riekan
09-20-2007, 07:53 AM
I agree that traps in this game need to be rethought. I understand the dev reasons for not having truely random traps. 1. If they were truely random, you could potentially enter a dungeon only to die from a trap exploding in your face. 2. With most people screaming for new content and higher level content ALL the time, when do they have the time to go back and retro-fit all the existing content. I'm sure there are others, but I would guess those are the main two.

However, even though this is not PnP, it is supposed to be based off of PnP. In that game, it is the common goal of a group of adventurers with differing but complimentary skills to seek out loot and achieve goals. Admittedly, it is easier in PnP as a truely turn based game to wait for the rogue to find and disable a trap because it takes that same time to roll the dice for that as it does for the Barbarian to roll the dice to kill the next obstacle in the party's way. While in DDO, the melee players are swinging away in real time and get anxious if they have to stop mouse clicking for 10 seconds.

The fact in DDO remains that the majority of players in the game have run all the quests 100s of times and know everything inside and out. I know I do. Rogues are barely needed as most people just take the damage and heal up. People are sooo into the zerging routine that they do complain if the rogue doesn't have everything down before front people are there. Everything has become go faster, go faster, get to the next quest because there is no reason for them to slow down.

As for the arguement that there are a few traps that "reward" pure or nearly pure rogues, it has already been stated that a 1 rogue/13 ranger can get his/her skills very close to a pure rogue. At that point, all a rogue can do to be better is spend ALL his action points on WotM, DD, OL, Search, and Spot enhancements. Unfortunately, this is character suicide. WotM is a good goal to shoot for, but anything past that and there is a good chance that all you are is a one trick pony. "Hey guys, I can get the Cabal Trap!" "Great, but can you help us fight to get there?" "Umm... I can swing my weapons, but I'm really squishy, and I don't hit a lot..." I know that is kind of an exaggeration, but you get the idea. Since traps are, at this point in time, not the major focus of most quests, you need to be able to hold your own as a pure rogue and have the player skills and build setup to survive your 4-7d6 sneak attack output.

Most groups won't pick up a rogue unless they can significately contribute to DPS, and a well build rogue can excel at that. However, they aren't shooting for the Cabal trap on that build either. I don't think making traps that a rogue has to spend everything on to get is the answer. At the same time, there isn't much game reason to stay pure rogue these day. Crippling Strike is nice for rogues who stay rogueish, but in truth, the 7d6 sneak attack is the better goal/advantage to be shooting for.

I like the idea of traps that have alternate bad side effects other than raw damage that would make a party less likely to blow through quests. Random trap trigger points would be nice too. Would be fun to not know if you were standing in the save spot if people were going to set off a trap. I think as a community, we need to keep circulating ideas as to want can be done to help the rogue class more needed without making them absolutely necessary in every quest.

Mercules
09-20-2007, 07:56 AM
As a rogue, I wince everytime it takes me 15 seconds to make a search and disable animation. Some people complain they have to stand still for 10 seconds to get thier crack, err haste, let alone waste 15seconds to avoid 40 damage.

I remember doing VoN4 a few weeks back where everyone just ran full speed through the whole thing. LFM didn't say speed run, but even so watching a Cleric run through a blade trap healing himself up as he went was disturbing. I finally said, "So basically I'm here for the 10% XP?" Silence.

kailus
09-20-2007, 08:42 AM
One of the reasons we have traps that require a super high skill to beat the DC, is to offer a reward to people who do stick with the Rogue class, pump a lot of points into their skills, and keep around items that aid them in their pursuit of treasure.

It is great to hear this is the intention but, from someone who's had a rogue from day one, I have to say the rogue is dead IMHO. I love my Rogue but I see no reason to play it, no reason to wait around for someone who's trying to get favor to pull me into a quest I've done 100 times already. The reality is a Rogue is virtually worthless in every other quest so we do not get to do anything except what you have mentioned in your post.

This is really the issue for the Rogue. STK was a great thing but once people got used to going around it, no one cared about a Rogue.

While you are focusing on making rewards for Rogue's, there is no benefit for parties to use one. Here's what most parties are looking for in a player benefit, Damage, Damage, Healing, Crowd Control, Damage. What is a Rogue, one round of Damage, Spell Point Sponge, Res, one round of damage, repeat.

Matter of fact is the Rogue does not have enough DPS advantage to be a party member. AC of monsters at lvl 10 quests makes them virtually useless. Worse than Rangers, don't see a lot of those anymore either.

Aeneas
09-20-2007, 08:52 AM
In a few days very few melee classes will be able to supply enough damage to be very effective, not just rogues. The days of melees at end game are dead unless you have an extra trick to help the caster-gods behind you. (see intimidate)

llevenbaxx
09-20-2007, 08:57 AM
Whoot! Can Perform/Bluff/Diplomacy/Tumble/Jump/Spot/Listen/Swim/Repair/Heal at 60+ mean something too?

A couple of those already are pretty useful. Jump can be used in a good number of spots to avoid different fights and traps. Id say its one of the more useful skills in the game right now.

As far as spot goes, true porfessionals dont need to spring traps to know theyre there.;) Also with the new mod, it will be extremely useful in finding stealthed enemies.

Would love to see tumble work more like PnP tumble though, there was just a thread the other day talking about possible changes that would make this an awesome skill.

Alot of those skills can be very nice if you take them into account when making a character. You just have to plan. Making it a point to use them can add much enjoyment to the game as well as set you apart from the rogues that dont.

deepshadow
09-20-2007, 09:08 AM
We're exploring some options for making trapsmiths a little more useful. We want rogues to feel wanted, afterall. I agree, traps which waste a significant amount of time or resources ultimately do a better job of exhibiting a rogue's usefulness than one which poses a minor inconvenience.


I've got plenty of nasty little traps lined up for you in Module 5. I hope you'll enjoy running into them!

Great to hear. My main is a Rogue and I love playing dungeons where he gets to ply his trade. I'd love to see more rogue dungeons and looking forward to trying some of the MOD5 runs.

Of course, you can't please all of the people all of the time. The Cabal chest is a great example. One side says everyone should be able to get it, even rogues with 1 level, otherwise what's the point. The other side says only specialized trap smiths should get it and keep it like it is. Seems like everyone has an opinion on this single chest. I say put some content in that requires specializes builds and rewards those players - even some dungeons should require some stealth or rogue work (Rogues aren't the only classes that can sneak/etc)

Would be nice if people understood this concept and accepted the fact that some characters will fail or be unable to perform in some situations/dungeons - The simple solution is to build a character that fills that role or put up a LFM if you intend to try to run that.

Generalizing in the design of every dungeon sets DDO on par with the lesser MMO's that are more generalized in nature and don't allow for specialized characters or builds. I think a balanced design here is the best design.

Snike
09-20-2007, 09:10 AM
A couple of those already are pretty useful. Jump can be used in a good number of spots to avoid different fights and traps. Id say its one of the more useful skills in the game right now.

Jump 40 is awsome. Nothing great about 40+ Jump, even if you scrafice to get it. That was the point of the post. None of those skills matter to "scarafice to get 60+"

As far as spot goes, true porfessionals dont need to spring traps to know theyre there.;) Also with the new mod, it will be extremely useful in finding stealthed enemies.

Same... no benefit for 60+

Would love to see tumble work more like PnP tumble though, there was just a thread the other day talking about possible changes that would make this an awesome skill.

Maybe I was wrong with tumble vs. fall damage, but I figured there was a cap like jump.

Responses in quote

llevenbaxx
09-20-2007, 09:20 AM
It is great to hear this is the intention but, from someone who's had a rogue from day one, I have to say the rogue is dead IMHO. I love my Rogue but I see no reason to play it, no reason to wait around for someone who's trying to get favor to pull me into a quest I've done 100 times already. The reality is a Rogue is virtually worthless in every other quest so we do not get to do anything except what you have mentioned in your post.

This is really the issue for the Rogue. STK was a great thing but once people got used to going around it, no one cared about a Rogue.

While you are focusing on making rewards for Rogue's, there is no benefit for parties to use one. Here's what most parties are looking for in a player benefit, Damage, Damage, Healing, Crowd Control, Damage. What is a Rogue, one round of Damage, Spell Point Sponge, Res, one round of damage, repeat.

Matter of fact is the Rogue does not have enough DPS advantage to be a party member. AC of monsters at lvl 10 quests makes them virtually useless. Worse than Rangers, don't see a lot of those anymore either.


Wow, I think you are mistakedly using the term rogue, when you really mean trapsmith. If all you set you rogue up to do is traps then of course there will be limited applications for him. This is a limitation you put on yourself though, with all the equipment/enhancements/feats/skills currently in the game, there is nothing in your list of what a group is looking for a rogue cant be good at.

Also, I dont understand why people feel it is a near traiterous offense to take any number of levels of another class to become a little more affective in the areas they may find themselves lacking. Its all in the planning. Sorry, I just hate to see blatantly false posts like the above about my second favorite class to play. Hell, it might be the best class in the game. That is all.

Mercules
09-20-2007, 09:29 AM
It is great to hear this is the intention but, from someone who's had a rogue from day one, I have to say the rogue is dead IMHO. I love my Rogue but I see no reason to play it, no reason to wait around for someone who's trying to get favor to pull me into a quest I've done 100 times already. The reality is a Rogue is virtually worthless in every other quest so we do not get to do anything except what you have mentioned in your post.

This is really the issue for the Rogue. STK was a great thing but once people got used to going around it, no one cared about a Rogue.

While you are focusing on making rewards for Rogue's, there is no benefit for parties to use one. Here's what most parties are looking for in a player benefit, Damage, Damage, Healing, Crowd Control, Damage. What is a Rogue, one round of Damage, Spell Point Sponge, Res, one round of damage, repeat.

Matter of fact is the Rogue does not have enough DPS advantage to be a party member. AC of monsters at lvl 10 quests makes them virtually useless. Worse than Rangers, don't see a lot of those anymore either.

WOW! While I have had problems from time to time getting groups with my Rogue, this is because of other players perceptions, not reality. They tend to see things your way and unless they NEED a Rogue they would rather have something else.

"What is a Rogue, one round of Damage, Spell Point Sponge, Res, one round of damage, repeat." Um... not if you learn how to play one. I do NOT use the damage enhancements for Sneak Attack. Instead I use ones that give me more accuracy such as the Dwarven one to help with hitting with axes. I also am weird enough to use Cleave with a Rogue. I can Cleave, Great Cleave, and still not have agro if I am following up a 2hander melee. Diplomacy and bluff can clear your agro so you start getting sneak attacks again. A Deception weapon can give you sneak attacks even if you are the ONLY target for agro.

As for AC at level 10+ quests. Yes, my level 12 Rogue has issues hitting level 14 Elite quest mobs. Part of that is that I use a strength based weapon instead of being a maxed out Dex Rogue with weapon finesse. However, a maxed out Dex Rogue with Weapon Finesse and Precision along with a few good "utility" weapons can be a great addition to a group. In my case I can dish out DPS because I am doing Sneak Attacks on nearly every hit I make.

I also:

Heal Warforged with wands and enhancements, a task some people grumble about.
Use wands for DD. You know those High AC mobs even the fighters have issues hitting, Scorching Ray to the face tends to work, or a Searing Light. Yes the casters can do this better, but you know what, sometimes they are lying down on the job because of the return flamestrikes/chain lightnings I laugh at. Why didn't they PK FoD them? Well, often these high AC mobs are red names.
Use wands/scrolls for healing. I've had numerous Clerics thank me for getting them up off the ground. I also carry Remove Curse/Disease/Poison and Lesser Restoration to help out.
Get to places others have difficulty going.(pit anyone?)


This is in addition to my normal tasks of:

Disabling traps
Providing additional DPS
Spotting hidden mobs before they slip past the melee crew and agro on the caster/healer.
Running through dangerous traps to pull levers, grab items, for the group.
Use Bluff/Diplomacy on those few NPCs in quest you can do that with.


Now, there could be some improvements to the Rogue class and some have been listed here, but overall a Rogue is useful and a good one very useful. It's the "Sorry I don't do anything but hit things." I usually find useless despite them often being the most numerous members of most standard groups.

llevenbaxx
09-20-2007, 09:57 AM
Responses in quote

I guess I just dont think because its possible to get a +60 to jump there should be content that only a +60 jump character should be able to do. If you are going to specialize to the point you sacrifice a number of other things, you had better have your own designs in utilizing it.

I mean, what are the major benefits in staying generalized?(for example) I have have a +40 to tumble, jump, sneak and open lock. Im not asking for content that only a character who has these "qualifying" stats can tumble fast/far enough before the entrance is sealed to get to the +40 jump ledge then sneak by the bad guy to get to the locked chest to find itemX . That wouldnt make any sense to me in the same respect specialized content for one specialty doesnt. Geuss its just me.

Laith
09-20-2007, 10:15 AM
I mean, what are the major benefits in staying generalized?(for example) I have have a +40 to tumble, jump, sneak and open lock. Im not asking for content that only a character who has these "qualifying" stats can tumble fast/far enough before the entrance is sealed to get to the +40 jump ledge then sneak by the bad guy to get to the locked chest to find itemX . That wouldnt make any sense to me in the same respect specialized content for one specialty doesnt. Geuss its just me.
Valid point.

IMO, if Turbine really wants rogues to feel special, they have to involve more applications for their OTHER skills (or implement some of the many skills dropped in translation from PnP).

a pure-classed rogue will have FAR more capped skills than any other character. Your example of tasks that require combinations of these skills is better than pretending a pure-class rogue has better trap skills than every possible multiclass.

Raithe
09-20-2007, 10:16 AM
One of the reasons we have traps that require a super high skill to beat the DC, is to offer a reward to people who do stick with the rogue class, pump a lot of points into their skills, and keep around items that aid them in their pursuit of treasure.

You just described 95% of the rogues that are built in the game. Nearly every pure rogue is a trapsmithing specialist, just like nearly every wizard and sorceror has "Wall of Fire." Taking the trapsmithing speciality away from some rogues to benefit a very small group of non-uber "elites" is actually detrimental to all of them.

Had a halfling rogue disable the Cabal trap on elite, with the help of my bard. First time I had seen that since the release of Mod 4. Then we did Feast or Famine where the caster died because he was in a trap that the same halfling rogue who disabled Cabal couldn't spot.

The math is off.


2. To slow you down. When the enemy knows you're coming, they look for a way to give themselves more time to prepare. In the metagame sense, this helps prevent players from merely zerging through content. Good examples include the telekenesis traps in And the Dead Shall Rise, and the mines in Made to Order.

This is what I knew was happening, and immensely disliked. Building traps because they serve some metagame objective is the very definition of contrived. Most of the fanatical players of this game are fairly intelligent geeks. They know when something has been put in front of them merely because they are being challenged - and they take it on as a personal mission to defeat the challenge themselves.

It's part of the reason rogues are shunned - because they are perceived as taking that challenge away. I'll repeat it again: make the traps seem real, and the rogue's role in the party becomes more real.

Laith
09-20-2007, 10:20 AM
This is what I knew was happening, and immensely disliked. Building traps because they serve some metagame objective is the very definition of contrived.Umm, so why is it metagame for the badguys to leave traps with the objective to slow down invaders?

Not every trap will be of high enough quality to kill an opponent. Think Home Alone: the glass under the windowsill wasn't gonna kill the theif, but it was sure to slow him down if he used that point of entry (which was uncertain enough not to devote more effort to).

The swinging paint cans on the other hand...

edit: yes, he stated a metagame reason, but that doesn't negate the RP explanation of the trap.

Lorien_the_First_One
09-20-2007, 10:33 AM
Lastly, I hear your concerns over the search and disable actions, especially in regards to the fact that people are willing to suck up the damage to save a little time. All I can say is that I'll bring it up for discussion and we'll see if anything comes of it.

Thanks for your feedback on this thread Rocking.

On this particular point I think would could look to PnP as supporting some of the suggested ideas. For example one person brought up the fact that a good spot should reveal the trap. After all, you "spotted" something. In the dungeons designed by Wizards almost all traps in 3.x have both a spot and search DC so that if they hit the rather high spot check they reveal the trap. If they miss that spot by a bit then just "something seems wrong" (basically what happens now in DDO) and if they blow the spot completely they get no warning.

Only if they don't outright reveal the trap in the spot do you have to search and try to hit that DC.

The same BTW would apply to hidden doors.

A change to add a "spot that reveals" DC to doors and traps would not only improve playability but would be truer to D&D.

Hafeal
09-20-2007, 10:49 AM
I agree, traps which waste a significant amount of time or resources ultimately do a better job of exhibiting a rogue's usefulness than one which poses a minor inconvenience.

A suggestion - a de-buffing trap. You run through an anti-magic field or a break enchantment spell is triggered, stripping you of your buffs. That would slow zergers down for certain, if only to avoid party caster aggro. Also, why wouldn't high level dungeons in particular have debuff zones, especially if they know you are coming?


And there should be some optionals that NEED a rogue. No rogue? Fine, you just lost that optional mob and the associated xp & chest.

Fluffy is right. If you made the search animiation faster (it is PAINFULLY slow) it would be huge. A slight increase in the disable animation also wouldn't hurt but it isn't as bad.

Yes, yes, yes.


The unfortunate reality is that Turbine will not develop quests for a single class.

OK -


What about other things Rogues and other classes can do? Like sneak and hide? ... All classess should be allowed an alternative way to complete quests then just hack-n-slash. Or alternative ways of helping a party complete a quest faster and easier besides just "trap-monkey".

Helped you out Hence. I completely agree with your premise. I would like to see less quests with "kill everything" to win and more "alternative" ending solutions that make insidious bonus worth trying for. Why do you always have to kill the named at the end rather than sneak and steal? And not only rogues sneak and steal.


Lastly, I hear your concerns over the search and disable actions, especially in regards to the fact that people are willing to suck up the damage to save a little time. All I can say is that I'll bring it up for discussion and we'll see if anything comes of it.

Thank you.

Raithe
09-20-2007, 12:31 PM
Umm, so why is it metagame for the badguys to leave traps with the objective to slow down invaders?


There are at least 2 problems with what is actually happening during game design processes:

1) Dungeons are made too linear. When it's obvious to everyone in the group that the path they are on is the only one available, traps along that route necessarily feel contrived. It appears more like someone knew when you were coming and set up the main thoroughfare accordingly. On the other hand, a side corridor filled with traps that opens up behind or at the flank of guards feels like a defense against a possibility.

Strangely, the traps mentioned in my quote (Made to Order and And the Dead Shall Rise) are actually some of the better traps in the game. Its kind of sad.

2) The AI can't deal with it. Once a trap has been set off, denizens are not necessarily alerted to the party's presence, and they are extremely likely to go running through the trap themselves, taking damage. The mystical nature of this behavior actually just adds to the feeling of things being contrived.

zyp
09-20-2007, 02:01 PM
One of the reasons we have traps that require a super high skill to beat the DC, is to offer a reward to people who do stick with the rogue class, pump a lot of points into their skills, and keep around items that aid them in their pursuit of treasure. There aren't many of these traps in the game, and they tend to be off the beaten path. This is our way of letting those players feel special. They make a sacrifice to attain that level of mastery, so they get the bonus. If we didn't cater to them once in a while, they would feel like it was an absolute waste to dedicate themselves so.

It's good to see this actually posted by TRD. When the GH mod came out and I encountered the Cabal trap (not to mention all those other cool traps), it gave me a whole new interest in playing the Rogue I'd stuck on the shelf. After enhancment respecs, some serious gear collecting, feat readjustments and the addition of the ventilated bracers I've gotten him to where he can search the box on his own every time and disable it 50% of the time on elite. It was a huge rush the first time I got that thing disabled on elite. Thanks again TRD.

zyp
09-20-2007, 02:13 PM
Most groups won't pick up a rogue unless they can significately contribute to DPS, and a well build rogue can excel at that. However, they aren't shooting for the Cabal trap on that build either. I don't think making traps that a rogue has to spend everything on to get is the answer. At the same time, there isn't much game reason to stay pure rogue these day. Crippling Strike is nice for rogues who stay rogueish, but in truth, the 7d6 sneak attack is the better goal/advantage to be shooting for.

After much respec to get my rogue to the point that he can do the Cabal trap reasonably well, I find that he is still an excellent melee. This is primarily due to a combination of wounding/puncturing, imp crit and weapon finesse (assuming that constitution stat damage can be counted as 'damage' with respect to the term DPS).

muffinlad
09-20-2007, 03:36 PM
It actually goes beyond just a Rogue based quest, or skill based quest, in my view, and on to "ROLE" based quest.

Few quests that I can think of (Von 1, BAM-Relic, and Crucibal most importantly) have actual components for non-combat skills that can help turn parts of the quest off (or make someone not wear their armor, etc), and in a few of those cases, like BAM, succeeding actually gets you LESS of a reward.

It is important that more ROLES, such as the trapsmith, become important to the game, and that your play style supports those roles. I for one, will not move past the Rogue while he is working on the trap. Even though I could survive the trap, I wait for it to be taken out, period. As I am often the Cleric or the Wizard with Haste, I make sure that everyone else knows that I see his role as important.

Now, I am not going to stop the barbarian, who with 100 Cure Crits and 100 haste posts who is out whacking up a storm....but nothing really else is either. They have money to burn, and they are playing the game like they just put in another quarter. Good for them....I am waiting on the trap to be disabled.

Regs,

muffinsquishy

Twerpp
09-20-2007, 03:43 PM
Yes I think there should be Multiclass specific quests too.

I mean when are they going to design something we can enjoy as Halfling Bard/Wiz/Barb dragonmarked shuriken specialists who plan to re-spec to double-mace as soon as it comes out????! Doesnt anyone care about us??

BlueLightBandit
09-20-2007, 09:48 PM
One of the reasons we have traps that require a super high skill to beat the DC, is to offer a reward to people who do stick with the rogue class, pump a lot of points into their skills, and keep around items that aid them in their pursuit of treasure. There aren't many of these traps in the game, and they tend to be off the beaten path. This is our way of letting those players feel special. They make a sacrifice to attain that level of mastery, so they get the bonus. If we didn't cater to them once in a while, they would feel like it was an absolute waste to dedicate themselves so.


I'm jumping in on this a little late, so bear with me...

I have no problems with the devs catering to those who have made sacrifices to achieve certain abilities, in fact, I applaud it.

My quams come into play when the needed abilities are specifically unachievable by entire races. Halflings, Warforged and Humans are simply unable to get high enough scores in search to find the trap for the Cabal chest. Dwarves are only able to find it if they take a dragonmark AND 10 action points into enhancements, that is a sacrifice. Halflings, with their favored class: rogue, are simply unable to find the trap, regardless of what sacrifices they do make.

That this is a chest for those who make sacrifices is just a post-event justification for an arbitrarily high number that was implemented without much thought. In otherwords, laziness. Instead of creating a universal set of rules that were applied to all races and all events, Turbine has repeatedly -tweaked- this and -nerfed- that based on either the whims of some angry forum-goers, or the lack of popularity of specific quests. Read: static loot, human versatility, and xp, were all implemented without the necessary foresight IN THE FIRST PLACE, thus they had to go back and change things.

The DC check to simply find this particular trap, is at such a level that entire races (not builds, not skill selection, not player ability) are simply unable to reach this mark. That is not a matter for sacrifice, but rather a matter of poorly DM'd quests.

Cowdenicus
09-21-2007, 05:32 AM
I would like to see more OPTIONALS that were geared toward class specific stuff.

Why my cleric has never been able to use his heal skill on an NPC is beyond me.

If these optionals have chests or good xp or shortcuts or whatever is just icing on the cake.

Not everything in Dungeons and Dragons needs to be a hack and slash fest.