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View Full Version : What is a "Time Sink" and Why Would You Want One?



HumanJHawkins
09-13-2007, 12:13 PM
When I hear the word "Time Sink", it conjures up an image of something essentially useless to take up time so that you don't notice the boredom as much. Either that, or something that takes an unnecessarily long time so that you are forced to spend more time in the game if you want to achieve certain goals.

But several people are asking for "Time Sinks" to be added to the game, and I can't imagine anyone actually wanting something like I've described above to be added to a game... So, what am I not understanding? What is a time sink and why would someone want one?

(Also what does "QTF" stand for?)

Thanks!

teddok
09-13-2007, 12:14 PM
It is a way to keep busy with out running normal content. It just gives you other things to do. Things like crafting. If turbine does it right you could spend hours upon hours crafting and enjoy it.

Blazer
09-13-2007, 12:17 PM
(Also what does "QTF" stand for?)

It's QFT, meaning Quoted For Truth.

teddok
09-13-2007, 12:21 PM
I thought it meant Quite ****ing True

slumbering_dragon
09-13-2007, 12:21 PM
crafting is one of the biggest time sinks in MMO's. I my self am the type of gammer that needs something new to do evey 30 dayss or so. I am not he player tha can sit there and make 30 builds and take them to lvl 14 with the same repitisious quests i get board. crafting takes a while and can eat up time when there r no groups going on in your lvl range. this happens alot in the 7-9 lvls.

Dariun
09-13-2007, 12:24 PM
But several people are asking for "Time Sinks" to be added to the game, and I can't imagine anyone actually wanting something like I've described above to be added to a game... So, what am I not understanding? What is a time sink and why would someone want one?


Stuff like the collectables (which I think is the only time sink in DDO and is poorly implemented).

Optional things that if you feel like doing it you can get a reward that is good-but-not-great.

People who like it can do it. People who don't like it can ignore it. Such "timesinks" are often what differentiates "online games" from "virtual worlds".

ArkoHighStar
09-13-2007, 12:24 PM
It has both negative and positive connotations

travel time for many playing this game is a negative time sink, in games like WOW and lOTRO travel times can be very long, so this kind of activity slows down progression making the leveling up process take a little longer. DDO promised to get rid of that, and to a certain degree it has as the longest travel time is maybe 10 minutes from the harbor out to to the far edge of the desert or gianthold. The consequence we quest more and level up faster.

Things like PvP, crafting and auctioneering tend to have a positive connotation as tends to give players who aren't currently doing content or just can't seem to find a group that night something else to do that has a positive impact on their gameplay, ie they feel like they got something out of it.

Outdoor areas have become the newest timesink in DDO, giving those who like to complete things certain goals that they can either complete with a group or solo if they are able.

Most guilds have created their own time sinks with the social aspect of being in a guild, many have their own chat servers (teamspeak, ventrillo) and some still play the game because of the community they have become part of within their guild or within the larger server community.

WestiesMA
09-13-2007, 12:26 PM
crafting is one of the biggest time sinks in MMO's. I my self am the type of gammer that needs something new to do evey 30 dayss or so. I am not he player tha can sit there and make 30 builds and take them to lvl 14 with the same repitisious quests i get board. crafting takes a while and can eat up time when there r no groups going on in your lvl range. this happens alot in the 7-9 lvls.

So instead of looting the desert for a bloodstone, you will loot the desert for the rare scorched mummy wrap scrap that is needed for crafting? What do you want to make? Pot holders?

I just don't see this as any different than doing res ring runs, or scale runs, so you can "complete' your character. :confused: Please help me understand why so many people want so badly to do this.

teddok
09-13-2007, 12:29 PM
So instead of looting the desert for a bloodstone, you will loot the desert for the rare scorched mummy wrap scrap that is needed for crafting? What do you want to make? Pot holders?

I just don't see this as any different than doing res ring runs, or scale runs, so you can "complete' your character. :confused: Please help me understand why so many people want so badly to do this.

All it does is give people more options of things to do. Say you log in and dont see any groups you care to join. What are you going to do get upset and log off, or you can do one of the Timesinks. Things like crafting you can spend many hours doing and enjoying the entire time.

ArkoHighStar
09-13-2007, 12:30 PM
So instead of looting the desert for a bloodstone, you will loot the desert for the rare scorched mummy wrap scrap that is needed for crafting? What do you want to make? Pot holders?

I just don't see this as any different than doing res ring runs, or scale runs, so you can "complete' your character. :confused: Please help me understand why so many people want so badly to do this.


The object of crafting is that you can design your own loot, so instead of looting some named item that a dev thought would be cool you get to create something that you think would be cool, or make somthing for someone else so you can make some plat. Crafting is not for everyone, but it can benefit everyone and keep more players in the game

Dariun
09-13-2007, 12:30 PM
Please help me understand why so many people want so badly to do this.

They are bored and there is nothing good on TV.

Dingo123
09-13-2007, 01:35 PM
Favor is a time sink.

A HUGE time sink.

ArkoHighStar
09-13-2007, 01:38 PM
Favor is a time sink.

A HUGE time sink.

only if you skip the content and have to go back and do it on elite later on, if you do it as you level it is considerably less of a time sink.

Cupcake
09-13-2007, 02:50 PM
All it does is give people more options of things to do. Say you log in and dont see any groups you care to join. What are you going to do get upset and log off, or you can do one of the Timesinks. Things like crafting you can spend many hours doing and enjoying the entire time.

I hate crafting. I hate finding the stuff to craft with. I hate the boredom of standing there waiting for something to finish being made. I do not enjoy crafting.

Cupcake
09-13-2007, 02:51 PM
only if you skip the content and have to go back and do it on elite later on, if you do it as you level it is considerably less of a time sink.

I actually have a lot of fun going backwards and running low level quests for favor with a high level character.

Ran 2 last night with StanC and Phil. I was on Cuppcake lvl 14. We did .....old gray garl? Something in 3 barrel cove. I hate those quests. But we ran it.

One shot killed the trogs. Was tons of fun.

FluffyDucky
09-13-2007, 02:52 PM
The entire game is a Time Sink. IE "something essentially useless to take up time so that you don't notice the boredom as much."

;-)

GeneralDiomedes
09-13-2007, 02:54 PM
The entire game is a Time Sink. IE "something essentially useless to take up time so that you don't notice the boredom as much."

;-)

A time sink for Real Life, yes. Now we want a time sink within a time sink.

Qzipoun
09-13-2007, 03:02 PM
I hate crafting. I hate finding the stuff to craft with. I hate the boredom of standing there waiting for something to finish being made. I do not enjoy crafting.


I actually have a lot of fun going backwards and running low level quests for favor with a high level character.

Ran 2 last night with StanC and Phil. I was on Cuppcake lvl 14. We did .....old gray garl? Something in 3 barrel cove. I hate those quests. But we ran it.

One shot killed the trogs. Was tons of fun.


Well maybe you like doing low level quests over and over again but most people don't. The vast majority of the players do not finish every quest before a mod comes out. But those that do need something else to spend their time playing with. Crafting allows those people who like crafting to spend more fun time with the game. If you don't like crafting don't do it, if you're happy with running the same quests hundreds of times then lucky you because you'll get lots of that with this game...

Cupcake
09-13-2007, 03:14 PM
Well maybe you like doing low level quests over and over again but most people don't. The vast majority of the players do not finish every quest before a mod comes out. But those that do need something else to spend their time playing with. Crafting allows those people who like crafting to spend more fun time with the game. If you don't like crafting don't do it, if you're happy with running the same quests hundreds of times then lucky you because you'll get lots of that with this game...

Borrowed Sentence from Teddok's post:

"Things like crafting you can spend many hours doing and enjoying the entire time."

All I, myself and I, was stating is, that "YOU" doesn't include me. I dont enjoy it. Others may, more power to them. I personally hate it.
I don't consider it fun by any stretch of the imagination. But that is my right.

Its your right to want it.

Just don't go knocking me cause I can't stand crafting and have fun playing instead.

Dwolf
09-13-2007, 03:15 PM
I still would love to see them take Three Dragon Ante and make it so that we can get a group together in a tavern and have a game of cards - a game within a game. TDA comes with optional rules for being played in character where options open up depending on how well a character can bluff etc.

Build something like that right into the DDO version, where score in bluff or diplomacy or haggle (or spot) can benefit the the player depending on which character he's playing it with.

This actually makes the game even more challenging if it plays differently depending on your character's score/skills etc. Characters can each ante up 50 gp or 50pp to participate in a game. If it really catches on, server events can be held where the grand-champion in a TDA tournament may cash in his (or her or its) winnings for some sort of magical prize.

If we're going to add optional "time sinks" let's make them different, fun, and adding to the immersion of the game.

HumanJHawkins
09-13-2007, 04:44 PM
<CUT>Things like crafting. If turbine does it right you could spend hours upon hours crafting and enjoy it.

I see... I get some of the other suggestions, but how is crafting a time sink... I have never seen it implemented. What about crafting takes time? I am assuming they don't give you a virtual hammer and a piece of mithril that you have to pound into a sword for example... (Right?!?)

:-)

jmelanie7
09-13-2007, 04:54 PM
I like the idea of three dragon ante, it's really a fun card game i enjoy playing, and when i don't feel like questing, i'd probably log on to play it. I would enjoy crafting too, and it would be great if we can name the items we craft, so they can be truly UNIQUE. Tough, i know it's alot of work for the devs to develop crafting. And since there is a craft skill in dnd you should add this too, and the result will depend on the check, it's really hard work to create this, so I don't think we'll see that in a near future, maybe next year!? I hope so! And devs, you should listen to Dworf too!!!

Blazer
09-13-2007, 04:59 PM
I see... I get some of the other suggestions, but how is crafting a time sink... I have never seen it implemented. What about crafting takes time? I am assuming they don't give you a virtual hammer and a piece of mithril that you have to pound into a sword for example... (Right?!?)

:-)

Not having played any other MMOs, I believe the time sink in crafting lies in collecting the items you need to craft your end product. Kind of similar to running the Gianthold Tor to collect scales for your dragonscale armor.

Katrina
09-13-2007, 05:01 PM
Three Dragon Ante would be sweet!
The only thing would be a lot of the people pressing for these 'time sinks' are the ones that don't want to get a group together. Maybe have another gamber guy in the dinghy?

HumanJHawkins
09-13-2007, 05:23 PM
Not having played any other MMOs, I believe the time sink in crafting lies in collecting the items you need to craft your end product. Kind of similar to running the Gianthold Tor to collect scales for your dragonscale armor.

Ahh. So the only difference between this and the "Collect the scales" thing is that you would have a bit more control over the magic behind the thing you were making... I.e. We have crafting already... It just isn't very flexible?

Falco_Easts
09-13-2007, 05:38 PM
I already have a time sink, it's called "Real Life". If I log on and there are no groups or I am bored I enjoy "Real Life". Spending time with my girlfriend and/or mates, playing sport, watching movies, all of these are great time sinks. Occasionally I might even "Do Housework".
I have enough time sinks as it is, I don't need any in the game.

JelloMold
09-13-2007, 05:50 PM
I already have a time sink, it's called "Real Life". If I log on and there are no groups or I am bored I enjoy "Real Life". Spending time with my girlfriend and/or mates, playing sport, watching movies, all of these are great time sinks. Occasionally I might even "Do Housework".
I have enough time sinks as it is, I don't need any in the game.

Falco, this is the second time in as many days that I've wanted to quote you on something. Lately you are doing an awesome job of stating exactly what I was thinking.

bandyman1
09-13-2007, 06:02 PM
Yeah, well....that's too bad Falco and Jello. Cause Turbine has already decided to implement them, based on demand from their player-base.

Here's a thought, since you are so quick to offer suggestions for peeps that are bored; If you don't want to participate in them, you don't have to. Why would you be against something that will be optional ( you will not be forced to participate in it ), yet will increase the number of happy customers Turbine has, thus increasing revenue for the things in game you would like to see implemented?

Falco_Easts
09-13-2007, 06:22 PM
Yeah, well....that's too bad Falco and Jello. Cause Turbine has already decided to implement them, based on demand from their player-base.

Here's a thought, since you are so quick to offer suggestions for peeps that are bored; If you don't want to participate in them, you don't have to. Why would you be against something that will be optional ( you will not be forced to participate in it ), yet will increase the number of happy customers Turbine has, thus increasing revenue for the things in game you would like to see implemented?

Meh...
Not so much against it as can't be bothered with it. If that's what others want to do, more power to them. I still stand by my thoughts that if people need a time sink (crafting) inside a time sink (DDO) well, they need to get out more.
I understand people enjoy different things about the game. Some like RP'ing, others power gaming to level cap. Some want to craft that' up to them. Just can't understand all the hype about it.

JelloMold
09-13-2007, 07:05 PM
Once again...what he ^ said.

Please don't confuse, "I don't understand why you need this" with "this is a worthless idea and you all are horrible people because you want it". Relax a bit and realize not everyone is here scrapping for a fight.

Dingo123
09-13-2007, 09:02 PM
only if you skip the content and have to go back and do it on elite later on, if you do it as you level it is considerably less of a time sink.

Without other people to advance you through it, in order to get max favor, or the high end rewards you would have to do every single quest in the game three times.

That's a time sink.

bandyman1
09-13-2007, 09:20 PM
Meh...
Not so much against it as can't be bothered with it. If that's what others want to do, more power to them. I still stand by my thoughts that if people need a time sink (crafting) inside a time sink (DDO) well, they need to get out more.
I understand people enjoy different things about the game. Some like RP'ing, others power gaming to level cap. Some want to craft that' up to them. Just can't understand all the hype about it.

Plz don't take this as confrontational. It's not. That's the problem with text, it's hard to read someones intent without the body language and tone we use to communicate verbally.

I highlighted the part of you post I did to point out that it is the exact same thing people are posting every time there is one of these threads. The problem is ( and I mean this as respectfully as possible ), it's not your ( nor anyone else's ) call to make on how much time someone else devotes to this hobby. If they want to be immersed in this virtual world that has been provided for us, and are willing to pay to do so, then they also have every right to ask Turbine to provide them with tools to make it more enjoyable. Just because such things are not important to you, does not make them less so to anyone else.

Falco_Easts
09-13-2007, 09:52 PM
Plz don't take this as confrontational. It's not. That's the problem with text, it's hard to read someones intent without the body language and tone we use to communicate verbally.

I highlighted the part of you post I did to point out that it is the exact same thing people are posting every time there is one of these threads. The problem is ( and I mean this as respectfully as possible ), it's not your ( nor anyone else's ) call to make on how much time someone else devotes to this hobby. If they want to be immersed in this virtual world that has been provided for us, and are willing to pay to do so, then they also have every right to ask Turbine to provide them with tools to make it more enjoyable. Just because such things are not important to you, does not make them less so to anyone else.

Agree, without body language it makes it hard sometimes.
I am not trying to talk anyone out of doing it, just expressing my thoughts on it. You are correct, it is not up to me what others do. Do I RP? No. Do I expect others to adopt my views on RP? No. Or PVP. Or Power Game. Similar things.
I am not trying to influence either player or Dev opinions on crafting just stating my view. To me, idea of a time sink in a time sink seems funny. To others it is the be all and end all of MMOing. To me, Power Gaming seems funny, to others it is the reason they play the game.
I always have other hobbies and interests outside of DDO to keep me busy and help me relax. To have a hobby inside a hobby is more involved then I wish to be.

Lorien_the_First_One
09-13-2007, 10:57 PM
I already have a time sink, it's called "Real Life". If I log on and there are no groups or I am bored I enjoy "Real Life". Spending time with my girlfriend and/or mates, playing sport, watching movies, all of these are great time sinks. Occasionally I might even "Do Housework".
I have enough time sinks as it is, I don't need any in the game.

I have heard of this "real life" thing but I haven't been able to locate it. Do you select it when levelling up? Is it a feat or an enhancement? Do I have to get to a particular favor level to unlock it?




Yeah, well....that's too bad Falco and Jello. Cause Turbine has already decided to implement them, based on demand from their player-base.

Here's a thought, since you are so quick to offer suggestions for peeps that are bored; If you don't want to participate in them, you don't have to. Why would you be against something that will be optional ( you will not be forced to participate in it ), yet will increase the number of happy customers Turbine has, thus increasing revenue for the things in game you would like to see implemented?

Thinking players are against stupid timesyncs if the nature of that sync makes them required. If they give you fairly worthless garbage then it doesn't matter. If the only way to get the weapons/armor/money needed to do what the game requries to be successful then it is bad for the game and should not be allowed.

Here's hoping they make crafting very limited and not follow the standard MMO model for how to do it.

Hambo
09-13-2007, 11:36 PM
I still would love to see them take Three Dragon Ante and make it so that we can get a group together in a tavern and have a game of cards - a game within a game. TDA comes with optional rules for being played in character where options open up depending on how well a character can bluff etc.

Build something like that right into the DDO version, where score in bluff or diplomacy or haggle (or spot) can benefit the the player depending on which character he's playing it with.

This actually makes the game even more challenging if it plays differently depending on your character's score/skills etc. Characters can each ante up 50 gp or 50pp to participate in a game. If it really catches on, server events can be held where the grand-champion in a TDA tournament may cash in his (or her or its) winnings for some sort of magical prize.

If we're going to add optional "time sinks" let's make them different, fun, and adding to the immersion of the game.

The major flaw of this idea is that it falls into the category of online gambling, and to implement it they would have to refuse to allow anyone under 21 (in the states) to have an account.

Games not involving "money", like darts or the halfing toss, where any 'monitary' risk is strictly between participants and not required to perform the activity are different. :D

Before someone mentions the one or two "games of chance" located around the environment (Phoenix Tavern and the Leaky Dingy come to mind), has anyone ever won, let alone played those more that a couple of times?

Hambo
09-13-2007, 11:42 PM
I have heard of this "real life" thing but I haven't been able to locate it. Do you select it when levelling up? Is it a feat or an enhancement? Do I have to get to a particular favor level to unlock it?





Thinking players are against stupid timesyncs if the nature of that sync makes them required. If they give you fairly worthless garbage then it doesn't matter. If the only way to get the weapons/armor/money needed to do what the game requries to be successful then it is bad for the game and should not be allowed.

Here's hoping they make crafting very limited and not follow the standard MMO model for how to do it.

I actually upgraded to Real Life 2.0(tm). It's not worth it, too many bugs. Like Microsoft, they only get it right after the second service pack. :rolleyes: :D

Falco_Easts
09-14-2007, 12:02 AM
I actually upgraded to Real Life 2.0(tm). It's not worth it, too many bugs. Like Microsoft, they only get it right after the second service pack. :rolleyes: :D

I was going to make a joke about "enhancements" and girlfriend favour but thought I would let it be :)

QuantumFX
09-14-2007, 01:04 AM
only if you skip the content and have to go back and do it on elite later on, if you do it as you level it is considerably less of a time sink.

QFT... :D

As for the main topic...

Not really. I purposefully avoid doing things like farming dragon scales because I like the quest and don't want it to become invaders 2.0 for me.

Dingo123
09-14-2007, 01:22 AM
only if you skip the content and have to go back and do it on elite later on, if you do it as you level it is considerably less of a time sink.

Did you REALLY think about this before you wrote it?

Let's apply this to actual gaming.


Alright everyone, we just did waterworks.

Cool.

Let's go do it again!

Alright.

Cool.

LET'S GO DO IT AGAIN!

Didja do the Pit?

Yeah.

LET'S GO DO IT AGAIN!

*facepalm*

And that's just if you do it back to back.

Says nothing about reforming a team to go do it again later on... but wait... THERE'S MORE!

This isn't a time sink. Or, it's much less of one... right?

If you did all the quests from normal to elite you would lever up pretty quickly... all well and good, right?

BUT THIS STILL LEAVES YOU WITH A BUNCH OF QUESTS YOU END UP OUTLEVELING ANYWAY.

So even if you "do it at the appropriate levels" you still end up outleveling quests, requiring you to go back and do them all later...

WHICH IS PRECISELY WHAT YOU JUST SAID YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO DO.

People just don't think sometimes, it's amazing how smug some internet jackasses can be when they thinks they can push around people.

QuantumFX
09-14-2007, 01:37 AM
Did you REALLY think about this before you wrote it?

Let's apply this to actual gaming.

SNIP

Why not do it on hard/elite the first time? Chances are someone in your group will have it open. Did Waterworks on hard with my level 2 cleric and a pug group. (Note: this is my first serious DDO based cleric.) Most fun I've had in waterworks since I ran it the first time.

Dingo123
09-14-2007, 01:51 AM
Why not do it on hard/elite the first time? Chances are someone in your group will have it open. Did Waterworks on hard with my level 2 cleric and a pug group. (Note: this is my first serious DDO based cleric.) Most fun I've had in waterworks since I ran it the first time.


And that's my point.. SOMEONE will have to run through it three times, and everyone ELSE will have to use them for it.

That's **** poor game design.

Falco_Easts
09-15-2007, 08:58 AM
And that's my point.. SOMEONE will have to run through it three times, and everyone ELSE will have to use them for it.

That's **** poor game design.

I disagree

Takes a lot more dev time to make new quests. Makes more effective use of time to make a single quest last 3 times as long. Not as a good as a new quest no, but better then no quest. If Dev's are strapped for time and budget this is a good way of capitilising.
Like I said, new quests are beter but as for as time:new material ratio I think this is as a good ratio we can expect.

~Inotna
09-15-2007, 04:34 PM
DDO is the first mmo I have played that doesn't require grinding to learn skills or raise levels/ranks. The devs are trying their hardest to get more content out to us. It does take some time but they want to get it right so we don't have alot of downtime. The deities know we are all bored out of our skulls with the current content but the DnD system has never been easy to program for. Time sinks like crafting and such would be a good idea just to break the monotony of running potp over and over and over and over and over again. Have patience. :)

Frodo_Lives
09-15-2007, 05:03 PM
There is nothing wrong with the idea of crafting (if done right) or some sort of card/gambling games. I'd like something to do if I just wanted to log on for half an hour or while I was waiting for a friend to log on. That being said time sinks are not a real deal breaker for me.

The only way I'd really take advantage of crafting is if the let you customize your armor/weapon/hat appearance. I hope that they don't make crafting so that you can make top end items without significant cost (not just plat) and can find a way to implement it without screwing up the already screwed up economy.

Cowdenicus
09-15-2007, 09:18 PM
There is nothing wrong with the idea of crafting (if done right) or some sort of card/gambling games. I'd like something to do if I just wanted to log on for half an hour or while I was waiting for a friend to log on. That being said time sinks are not a real deal breaker for me.

The only way I'd really take advantage of crafting is if the let you customize your armor/weapon/hat appearance. I hope that they don't make crafting so that you can make top end items without significant cost (not just plat) and can find a way to implement it without screwing up the already screwed up economy.

To add to that, I hope it is a real plat, item and time/xp sink. and I want to craft.