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Flint_Redbeard
09-12-2007, 12:23 PM
Well my plan is to have a TWF ranger with a high ac switching between twf and sword and board when need be.
Just bear with me give me suggestions etc.

Drow Ranger probably going ranger 14
STR 12 4
DEX 18 10
CON 12 6
INT 14 4
WIS 12 4
CHA 10 0

Feats:
Lv1 Weapon Finesse,
Lv3 Point Blank Shot,
Lv6 Dodge,
Lv9 Combat Expertise,
Lv12 Power Attack, the plan is to alternate between power attack and combat expertise when the need arises.

Dex 18 starting, 3 from lv 4,8,12, 3 from rgr enhancements, 2 from drow enhancements, +6 item, +2 tome from favor eventually 34 DEX

So let me think how i can get high ac.
10 base
12 dex
1 insight parrying weapon,
1 dodge feat
chaos garde, 2 dodge,
5 protection
5 barkskin
7 from +5 hvy shield
5 combat expertise
white dragon robe 6 armor, 4 deflection, 2dodge
chattering ring 3 dodge
haste 1 from potions
hmm so 64 i think without buffs from others 66 if i block

correct me if im wrong pick it apart find the flaws. Thats all i can think of, let me know what you think or how i can improve Thanx

Jaysensen
09-12-2007, 12:39 PM
CE and PA while not used simultaneously, are really great together. Why? Because it allows you to go from Offense mode to Defense mode. If you're doing lower level content, the AC thresholds are lower. Perhaps you dont need 60 AC. If youre fighting Elementals, pop on PA. etc...


The Protection and Deflection on the Dragon Robe wont stack. Not sure if you counted it or not.

You also need a +1 STR Tome for PA.

Impaqt
09-12-2007, 12:39 PM
White Dragonscale Robe - +6 armor, Moderate Fortification, +4 Protection, Greater Cold Resistance, Shield 3/rest

THe White Dragon Robe does not offer any Dodge Bonus.

THe +4 Protection Bonus on the White RObe will not stack with a +5 Protection item.

10 base
12 dex
1 insight parrying weapon, (No One in their Right mind is gona use one though) 1 dodge feat
2 chaos garde, 2 dodge,
5 protection
5 barkskin
7 from +5 hvy shield
5 combat expertise
6 white dragon robe 6 armor, 4 deflection, 2dodgeedit: Guess ddoforums dont support strikethrough)

3 chattering ring 3 dodge
1 haste 1 from potions
58(60 Blocking)

Also.. I dont see what Point Blank Shot is for...... MUCH better served to get Improved Crit or even Weapon Focus: in there instead.

Osharan_Tregarth
09-12-2007, 12:45 PM
Looks pretty decent to me Flint. I'm actually trying to steer my guildies towards a similar build when they are starting out new rangers these days.


I'm not a big fan of point blank shot. Are you taking it to try and qualify for shot on the run someday? Because that's the only real purpose I can see for it.

I'm a HUGE fan of the improved crit feats. So I'd personally drop the dodge and the point blank shot, take the power attack and combat expertise early, and then take improved crit ranged and piercing for your 9 and 12 feats. Or if you keep the dodge, at get at least one of the improved crit feats.

Are you planning on staying pure ranger?

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 12:54 PM
What role do you see filling? You have a high AC but your DPS output will not be enough to keep agro so you can't play the defensive tank role, not sure if you are planning on intimidate.

Defnitely take IC piercing over point blank shot that is a no brainer.

This build seems too extreme to me, you will seem ok I guess in that you won't die much, not only because of your AC but no mobs will bother with you. I just don't see how this build would be better than a DPS ranger in a group. Yeah they take more hits but they are actually killing things much faster.

I would up the strength, go with 13 Int and find a +1 tome. Go strength based finesse just is not good in this game. About the only class that you can justify it with is a rogue.

Impaqt
09-12-2007, 12:59 PM
I would up the strength, go with 13 Int and find a +1 tome. Go strength based finesse just is not good in this game. About the only class that you can justify it with is a rogue.

Huh? Why do you say that? FInesse/High AC Go hand and hand... Sure, Youmay limit yourself 5-8 points of damage per swing.. I hardly call that gimped for the AC this guy potentially can acheive.

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 01:03 PM
Huh? Why do you say that? FInesse/High AC Go hand and hand... Sure, Youmay limit yourself 5-8 points of damage per swing.. I hardly call that gimped for the AC this guy potentially can acheive.

What good is AC for a tank that cannot gain agro or kill anything? I would rather have a DPS dwarf ranger that is strength based if I were filling a tank slot. The other tanks in the group are going to get agro and take all the hits anyway if they are a decent DPS build.

Jaysensen
09-12-2007, 01:04 PM
[QUOTE=EinarMal;1342794Go strength based finesse just is not good in this game. [/QUOTE]

Having played both, I consider Finesse better. Drastically. The problem is that you MUST have top shelf weapons. Finesse really lags behind, until you get to your smiters, W/P, disruptors etc, but then it pulls waaaay ahead.

If you are rich, build finesse (with PA). If you arent, build STR.

Impaqt
09-12-2007, 01:08 PM
I would up the strength, go with 13 Int and find a +1 tome. Go strength based, finesse just is not good in this game. About the only class that you can justify it with is a rogue.

You made a Blanket Statement about Finesse..... Thats what I'm Curoius about.....

A Drow 2WF Finesse build can dish out LOTS of damage withthe righ tEnhancement makeup... Treason offhand with a Nice Seeker Rapier in the main... You'll see lots of damge adding up quick.. and gain plenty of aggro....

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 01:24 PM
You made a Blanket Statement about Finesse..... Thats what I'm Curoius about.....

A Drow 2WF Finesse build can dish out LOTS of damage withthe righ tEnhancement makeup... Treason offhand with a Nice Seeker Rapier in the main... You'll see lots of damge adding up quick.. and gain plenty of aggro....

The thing is that the only advantage of finesse, for DPS, is that you can get higher to-hit for elfs/drow that would go that way. In most cases you just don't need the extra to-hit as people when buffed hit all the time anyway.

That same Drow, with higher strength does more damage. If you don't need the extra to hit that you could get with dex, and most builds generally don't, then it is not that great of an idea.

Rogues are a special case since so much of their damage is from sneak attacks that the strength part matters less and you want to hit as much as posibble, and they generally have lower to-hit to begin with.

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 01:35 PM
Having played both, I consider Finesse better. Drastically. The problem is that you MUST have top shelf weapons. Finesse really lags behind, until you get to your smiters, W/P, disruptors etc, but then it pulls waaaay ahead.

If you are rich, build finesse (with PA). If you arent, build STR.

A strength based build could use those as well. You gain 3-4 to hit by going max dex, how can that be drastically better? In most cases you don't even need the extra to hit so it is "wasted" as your hitting mobs easily anyway, especially if you group with casters/bards.

Strength is more versatile as well, you do not need to rely on weapons that may not work against undead, red named bosses, or require saves to function.

Osharan_Tregarth
09-12-2007, 01:45 PM
But if he went str based, he wouldn't have the potential for the high armor class, would he?

I mean, isn't that the point of this thread?

Impaqt
09-12-2007, 01:48 PM
A strength based build could use those as well. You gain 3-4 to hit by going max dex, how can that be drastically better? In most cases you don't even need the extra to hit so it is "wasted" as your hitting mobs easily anyway, especially if you group with casters/bards.

Strength is more versatile as well, you do not need to rely on weapons that may not work against undead, red named bosses, or require saves to function.

Finnessable weapons are availabale to bypass ALL DR and Immunities just like non Finessable weapons...

Cold Iron, Byshek, Flamtouched, Bludgen, Pierce, Slash, Adamantine, etc etc etc...

If youcan gain +4 to +8 To hit the 4 or so points of damage per swing are gneerally nullified.... Especially on Elite content when Mob AC goes up pretty high... Sure, You can get buffed to high heaven... But What good does that do when you face a mob that dispells your buffs? We have very few right now.. But if you think thats gonna stay the same your in for a surprise.

People who think the current Content and levels are "End Game" really need to think about the game as a whole and down the road a bit more.

Turbines track record is to continuosly make the game more difficult...... I see no reason why that trend wont continue... I like my Dex/Finesse builds quite a bit.. and their TO Hits will Hold up through Level 20 and beyond.

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 01:50 PM
But if he went str based, he wouldn't have the potential for the high armor class, would he?

I mean, isn't that the point of this thread?


correct me if im wrong pick it apart find the flaws. Thats all i can think of, let me know what you think or how i can improve Thanx

Well my point was, what good is AC if you cannot fill the tank or the DPS roll in a group. So the high AC is not that great. The point of the thread. Pointing out flaws per his instructions....

You can still with enhancements hit 28 dex and be strength based so it's not like he has to gimp it.

AC in and off itself has no value, if mobs generally can't be attracted to you someway then your high AC is "wasted" as it is doing the group little good. So you contribute less DPS to the group, and you don't take damage, but you don't prevent damage from being heaped upon the other tanks in the group. This build could be played with a much lower AC with little difference in most groups since you won't be attracting agro anyway.

If you can't intimidate mobs, have no AOE attack like cleave to grab agro, and generally through finesse do less damage than any strength based DPS build in the group how are you going to get any agro to help mitigate the damage taken by the group as a whole? If you can't lower that then your AC, for the group, is not very useful.

Jaysensen
09-12-2007, 02:18 PM
This is the first time I have ever disagreed with Einar, incidentally. I highly doubt we will agree on this theory, but I would like to discuss this from MY POINT OF VIEW. Like I said, I have two Drow Rangers, built around the Rapier platform. The to hit differential is drastic. But it is probably due to playstyle. This is a really good discussion, so lets talk specifics.

Weapons are a wash, because either build can use any sfx weapon. But the difference is in attack bonus.

Unless stated otherwise, everything is the same. Both have feats and enhancements that make no bearing on the discussion. Both have virtually identical gear. But assume that if it exists, I have it.

Raquelle (Hulking Drow Ranger-type)
27 STR (16 starting, +3 levels, +2 tome, +6 item)
26 DEX
Weapon Focus: Pierce

13 BAB
2 Drow Rapier or SS
8 STR
4 G Hero
1 WF: P
-5 CE
-----
23

Tawnie (Tempest Ranger type. hey, shes a year old. give me a break)
18 STR
36 DEX (20 starting, +3 levels, +2 Tome, +5 enhance, +6 item)
no WF: P

13 BAB
2 Drow Rapier or SS
13 DEX
4 G Hero
-4 Moving
-5 CE
-----
23


Attack vs Damage
I like CE. I have it on almost all the time. Thats -5. I perfer twitch-attack. Thats -4 right there. But the STR based Ranger cannot afford the -4 to hit. I always have G Hero on. Thats +4. I rarely get to group with Bards. Both are BAB 13.

To me, what the real question comes down to is: 4ish attack - big on crit confirmations (advantage finesse) or 6ish damage (drastic advantage STR). I think 4 points of attack is huge. Someone else PLAYING MY CHARACTER may not. For my playstyle its huge. I think my largest point of contention is that 4 attack IS HUGE. There is no single feat that gives 4 attack - unless you count Exotic Profs.

Beating DR
Einar has/had a great thread on beating DR for the purposes of wounding. That was the biggest reason I rolled Raq as STR. But you know what, in practice, I find that beating DR is virtually moot. As soon as my monster is cursed, I run to the next one. It gets a Destruction or FOD to the face in a second or two.

Red Names
First, get a nice Greater Bane weapon, and you may or may not notice a large difference in damage. Really, though, Red Names are so few and far between. With a finesse ranger, you should KNOW you are tuning your build to be weaker against boss monsters. To me, its ok, because Id rather have the extra to hit. Tuning for performance against Red Names is like picking FE: Dragons. Until raid bosses take hours like in other MMORPGS, the sub one minute fight with Cochitelhua or Lord Istharan is an acceptable tradeoff. Hell, it may not even be worth an inventory slot.

AC
I value AC over damage. TO ME, the extra damage from the STR, isnt worth the loss of AC. AC + Buffs + Saves > Buffs & Saves. AC is not a dead build strategy, and its easier to get a better AC with a finesse build. Only by a few points, but the question is: is it the critical few points where it makes a difference? 55 to 58 or 45 to 48? Highly noticable difference bumping your AC into the high 50s.


Again, this post isnt saying any one philosophy is wrong. For me, this was my rationale. Having extensively played both finesse and STR Drow through ALL content, both endgame and low levels, I am one of the few people who can say based on experience, one is "better" than the other.

I admit to having a skewed DDO experience as 1) my guild is highly skilled and geared, and 2) we have a very high number of wounding builds (at least 6 w/p rapiers) and Necro Sorcs.

PS If we had attribute respec, Id respec Raquelle to Finesse.

Soul-Shaker
09-12-2007, 02:20 PM
The floored tohit of a finesse really does help WHEN combined with STANCES and still leaves you available to drop stances if they ever does release non barb/caster type mobs and make newer mobs similar to TS blackgaurds. And like jaysensen has mentioned, its only really good if youve got great gear already, cuz most times theyre all +1/2. especially w/p. Another thing to look at is


TWF +5dmg/-5tohit PA to both hands with 34 dex and maybe 14base str( 22str max, +2tome,+6item) vs 26/28 str

+11/+8 dmg, +7 tohit finesse pa
+8(+9 with 28str) / +4 dmg, +8(9 with 28str) tohit with str build

clearly the PA build does more dps and loses less tohit. The only time the finesse build loses is if it needs to have both ac and dmg because they cant have both stances active. But thats what favorite enemy dmg is for (up to +10 fav enemy dmg, just choose dr mobs)

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 02:30 PM
If youcan gain +4 to +8 To hit the 4 or so points of damage per swing are gneerally nullified....

+8 :eek:

Dex advantage is at most for elf/drow 20 base + 5 enhancements. So for a Ranger that would be +7 points higher than possible with a strength build. That is in the +3-4 range depending on items/tomes.

For a Dwarf that comes in at a grand total of +3 points higher in the +1-2 range. Again AC is nice, but I cannot see how this build beats a Dwarf strength ranger with 400 hit points. Dwarfs are just too strong to ignore at this point sadly.

Jaysensen
09-12-2007, 02:33 PM
No one pointed this out, but if you go finesse/Robes, you theoretically will one day be able to add Monk levels for WIS bonus to AC. (Im not holding my breath though)

Soul-Shaker
09-12-2007, 02:38 PM
correct me if im wrong pick it apart find the flaws. Thats all i can think of, let me know what you think or how i can improve Thanx

Well my point was, what good is AC if you cannot fill the tank or the DPS roll in a group. So the high AC is not that great. The point of the thread. Pointing out flaws per his instructions....

You can still with enhancements hit 28 dex and be strength based so it's not like he has to gimp it.

AC in and off itself has no value, if mobs generally can't be attracted to you someway then your high AC is "wasted" as it is doing the group little good. So you contribute less DPS to the group, and you don't take damage, but you don't prevent damage from being heaped upon the other tanks in the group. This build could be played with a much lower AC with little difference in most groups since you won't be attracting agro anyway.

If you can't intimidate mobs, have no AOE attack like cleave to grab agro, and generally through finesse do less damage than any strength based DPS build in the group how are you going to get any agro to help mitigate the damage taken by the group as a whole? If you can't lower that then your AC, for the group, is not very useful.

Unless your like me who likes to solo(split up to quicken missions) or can run ahead almost everwhere, then you'll have the aggro easily. More mobs are also getting cleave/glance type dmg. Youll also be suprised at how fast someone gets aggrod if they dont miss(cept on a 1).

Soul-Shaker
09-12-2007, 02:41 PM
No one pointed this out, but if you go finesse/Robes, you theoretically will one day be able to add Monk levels for WIS bonus to AC. (Im not holding my breath though)

Hehe was just thinking of posting this but beat me to it. But on the topic, my newest 12 rgr is built for bows atm just because I wanted to give it another test, but its mainly built to do 15rgr/1monk twf finesse in the future.

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 02:45 PM
Hehe was just thinking of posting this but beat me to it. But on the topic, my newest 12 rgr is built for bows atm just because I wanted to give it another test, but its mainly built to do 15rgr/1monk twf finesse in the future.

Monks! Impaqt talking of level 20 and beyond! Well in 2012 I will have to re-do all my builds :p

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 02:48 PM
Unless your like me who likes to solo(split up to quicken missions) or can run ahead almost everwhere, then you'll have the aggro easily. More mobs are also getting cleave/glance type dmg. Youll also be suprised at how fast someone gets aggrod if they dont miss(cept on a 1).

Yeah I mean if you are solo or facing mobs by yourself obviously agro is irrelevant at that point.

I am not saying AC is pointless, but on a finesse Ranger trying to hit extreme numbers by taking Dodge, etc... is not worth it. It's not like a strenght based Dwarf couldn't hit mid-40's easily enough and have about another 100 hit points over the elf build.

Impaqt
09-12-2007, 03:09 PM
Dwarf STR TWF Ranger
18 STR
3 Levels
+2 Tome
+6 Item
------
29 STR (+9 TO hit)

Drow Finesse Ranger
20 Dex
3 Levels
2 Drow
2 Tome
3 Ranger
6 Item
---
36 (+13)

Thats +4 To Hit RIght there

Dunno how you get +1-+2 out of that....

We should probobly agree to disagree here.....

WHen Dwarves get Nerfed though...... ANd it will Happen...... Dont say I didnt warn ya.... DOnt say you didnt see it coming.. and PLEASE dont cry "Nerf! I'm quitting the game because you[turbine] wrecked my character"

Soul-Shaker
09-12-2007, 03:12 PM
Yeah I mean if you are solo or facing mobs by yourself obviously agro is irrelevant at that point.

I am not saying AC is pointless, but on a finesse Ranger trying to hit extreme numbers by taking Dodge, etc... is not worth it. It's not like a strenght based Dwarf couldn't hit mid-40's easily enough and have about another 100 hit points over the elf build.

Actually only up to 42hp more over a elf/drow(elfs -2 base, dwarves +2, dwarves +2 con enahcement = 6 diff x 14). If your going higher in con, you must be losing somewhere else like int so no CE or cha then umd becomes a diff. And if you want higher then delvers 22 dex, then a dwarf will have to invest past 6 pts in dex(14+6item+2tome+3rgr dex) to invest in dwarven armor mast2 or daggertooth belt that a elf/drow can get. While a dex characters ac will keep going up due to more stat points in dex with no armor restriction.
But if your adding in toughness feats, then thats talking more ap/feat usage. But drow get the better fav DPS weapons and better utility weapons(smite, banish, w/p). The difference between 1 ac when youve hit a higher ac is actually quite noticable and also saves on heals/sp of both clr and resources. Mid 40s isnt considered good ac at all if your going for ac. Im running around with 54-56 AC TWF on my rgr self buff.

Vengenance
09-12-2007, 03:39 PM
Also.. I dont see what Point Blank Shot is for...... MUCH better served to get Improved Crit or even Weapon Focus: in there instead.

Don't you need Point Blank Shot to qualify for precise shot and improved precise shot?

Blazer
09-12-2007, 03:43 PM
Don't you need Point Blank Shot to qualify for precise shot and improved precise shot?

Yes, you need it but no, you don't need to select it; it's automatically granted to rangers.

Impaqt
09-12-2007, 03:57 PM
Yes, you need it but no, you don't need to select it; it's automatically granted to rangers.
TO clarify... Yes, the Non-ranger character needs Point Blank for PS and IPS.. But since PS and IPS are ranger granted feats, there is no such requirement.

Just like you dont need a 15/17 dex for TWF/ITWF and GTWF on a aRanger.

Blazer
09-12-2007, 04:07 PM
Thanks for clearing up my poor use of antecedents. :o

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 05:26 PM
Dwarf STR TWF Ranger
18 STR
3 Levels
+2 Tome
+6 Item
------
29 STR (+9 TO hit)

Drow Finesse Ranger
20 Dex
3 Levels
2 Drow
2 Tome
3 Ranger
6 Item
---
36 (+13)

Thats +4 To Hit RIght there

Dunno how you get +1-+2 out of that....

We should probobly agree to disagree here.....

WHen Dwarves get Nerfed though...... ANd it will Happen...... Dont say I didnt warn ya.... DOnt say you didnt see it coming.. and PLEASE dont cry "Nerf! I'm quitting the game because you[turbine] wrecked my character"

Was comparing a finesse dwarf with +3 dex enhancement from being a Ranger to a strength based Dwarf, not elf to Dwarf in that case.

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 05:27 PM
Actually only up to 42hp more over a elf/drow(elfs -2 base, dwarves +2, dwarves +2 con enahcement = 6 diff x 14). If your going higher in con, you must be losing somewhere else like int so no CE or cha then umd becomes a diff. And if you want higher then delvers 22 dex, then a dwarf will have to invest past 6 pts in dex(14+6item+2tome+3rgr dex) to invest in dwarven armor mast2 or daggertooth belt that a elf/drow can get. While a dex characters ac will keep going up due to more stat points in dex with no armor restriction.
But if your adding in toughness feats, then thats talking more ap/feat usage. But drow get the better fav DPS weapons and better utility weapons(smite, banish, w/p). The difference between 1 ac when youve hit a higher ac is actually quite noticable and also saves on heals/sp of both clr and resources. Mid 40s isnt considered good ac at all if your going for ac. Im running around with 54-56 AC TWF on my rgr self buff.

Was counting toughness, the feats are equal since you don't need weapon finesse. I does cost you some additional AP's.

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 05:29 PM
WHen Dwarves get Nerfed though...... ANd it will Happen...... Dont say I didnt warn ya.... DOnt say you didnt see it coming.. and PLEASE dont cry "Nerf! I'm quitting the game because you[turbine] wrecked my character"

Nerf away the only Dwarf I have is a cleric. I really personally dislike them but cannot argue with their power for melee builds.

Flint_Redbeard
09-12-2007, 06:02 PM
first off who cares about dwarves i like elves and drow there thats my stand point. If i wanted to ask about dwarves or make a dwarf warrior cause theyre dmg is far superior and have twice the HP then id lv my lv 2 dw ftr up. That being said and i dont mean to sound rude lets talk about my drow ranger.

As far as the high ac thing, well i have a 10 ranger i havnt played in a bout a year my ac is only 40 buffed with bark. Not really sure where to go but its obvious ill need a higher ac if im going to try out new content some day. Cause the places i did go i got raped by mobs.

So I thought id like to remake a ranger with a high ac in mind ya know see what its like to not die. Only go drow cause of better stats, and so i can dual wield named scimitars and have the last name Do Urden.... only kidding of course albeit ive seen far too many of the drizzit clones already.

Also I dont claim to be or try to be a tank, i just want a high dex for bonus to hit and + to ac. Also i want to take feats for ac so i can kill stuff and not be dead in the process. I figure a high ac with twf would be a good idea. Of course i wont do as much dmg as a dwarf twf. Then again my toys of choice have always been wounding and if i can hit them every time i swing well ... you get the picture.

as for the feats Yeah wasting a feat for dodge for 1 ac does seem trivial, and pbs well ive always taken that force of habit i guess. WF piercing and imp crit ill probably take instead.

Well thats my thoughts im glad to have riled up so many people keep it coming. Also the mistakes yeah it was typed this morning hastely before college. First off i didnt know what bonus white dragon robe was ive never seen it didnt know it didnt stack with prot items. Also i guess i counted chaos garde twice only the 2nd time was a typo about the robe thing i meant to say robe/bracers but goofed and had bracers already on the list. like i said sleepy eyed hastely done before i was late to class.

Flint_Redbeard
09-12-2007, 06:06 PM
Double post oh noes. About the name my first toon was a dwarf fighter on a trial account, and i stupidly named the account after it.. REMEMBER FOLKS TATTOO'S ARE PERMANENT much like my forum name >_<

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 06:14 PM
Double post oh noes. About the name my first toon was a dwarf fighter on a trial account, and i stupidly named the account after it.. REMEMBER FOLKS TATTOO'S ARE PERMANENT much like my forum name >_<

With a name like Flint and you don't like Dwarfs:eek:

I would consider balancing out your stats a little more. If you are dead set on finesse you should still start with 14 strength you can get to 20 without much trouble. Power Attack actually requires 13 strength btw. That will let you do more damage over time (every point matters when you are swining 150 times a minute). It also lets you use your favortie wounder without worrying as much about DR.

Flint_Redbeard
09-12-2007, 07:06 PM
Well its not that i dont like dwarves i do, i just curse myself for making my forum name the name of a toon that got deleted long ago. Before feat respecs lawl. I coulda choose something more vague instead of a full name of a deleted toon.

Also im partial to elf rangers cause i used to play one back when i first started PnP d&d a few years ago. Sadly i stopped cause its hard to maintain a group when people leave for college, and when peoples schedules change every few months. Ah the joys of online gaming no scheduled games and you can play anywhere with internet.

Now about the stats, I had said the following

Str 12
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 10

You said i should go for 14 str so id have 20 when i find items and tomes or something. So bump the int down to 12 and hope for a tome? oh i heard you get a tome for having a certain amount of favor can someone elaborate on this? I honestly dont know ive only been back a week after not playing for 13 ish months.

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 08:32 PM
Well its not that i dont like dwarves i do, i just curse myself for making my forum name the name of a toon that got deleted long ago. Before feat respecs lawl. I coulda choose something more vague instead of a full name of a deleted toon.

Also im partial to elf rangers cause i used to play one back when i first started PnP d&d a few years ago. Sadly i stopped cause its hard to maintain a group when people leave for college, and when peoples schedules change every few months. Ah the joys of online gaming no scheduled games and you can play anywhere with internet.

Now about the stats, I had said the following

Str 12
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 10

You said i should go for 14 str so id have 20 when i find items and tomes or something. So bump the int down to 12 and hope for a tome? oh i heard you get a tome for having a certain amount of favor can someone elaborate on this? I honestly dont know ive only been back a week after not playing for 13 ish months.

Well, for 1750 favor you get a +2 tome, but that takes a long time. The problem is you can't take power attack with 12 strength and you can't take combat expertise with 12 int. You might consider bumping wisdom down to 10, you just need to find a wisdom item later on so you can cast spells. In later levels +1 tomes become pretty common to find/trade for, but if you don't have any it makes it a little dicey.

I think you gotta go 10 wisdom 14 strength and 14 int so you are not stuck without a tome later on not able to advance. The 10 wisdom is ok as you can easily find a +2 wisdom item early and +4 wisdom items are pretty cheap and available on the AH or vendor.

QuantumFX
09-12-2007, 08:40 PM
Monks! Impaqt talking of level 20 and beyond! Well in 2012 I will have to re-do all my builds :p

Uuuugh!!! Do you REALLY want to redo them?


With a name like Flint and you don't like Dwarfs:eek:

What can he say - he's a GI Joe fan... :D

Anyway back on topic(s).

I agree with EinarMal about the question "Why do you need that much AC?" If your answer is "I grab too much agro and don't have the means to mitigate it" then yes you can use the AC. However if you lose the ability to grab agro to have a high AC you've simply gone from one extreme to another. Simply put: If you're incapable of gaining agro then you don't need the AC, you need to move into flanking position.

However, I do also agree with Jaysensen about how the finesse route plays better in some hands. Grenfell posted a challenge that try a STR ranger with the same equipment and see how you fair. The problem is that my kill counts are generally smaller with STR rangers.

Now as for monk levels - I'm still holding out hope that we'll see a combat system revamp with proper double weapons and proper bucklers. This would make the monk level dip unnecessary. Our current system is totally unbalanced to favor THF styles.

Flint_Redbeard
09-12-2007, 08:55 PM
a friend said i should splash 2 lvs of fighter if im going finesse ranger.

he said even with
Str 12
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 10
fighter str 1, tome+1 and 6 item would bring me to 20 str he said. Brings up an idea fighter would add 2 feats, ftr str 1, all armors and shields, not that i would use anything other than light armor.

I had thought to take weapon finesse, combat expertise, power attack, weapon focus piercing and then improved crit piercing. That still leaves 2 feats maybe dodge, and exotic weapon prof light repeater, or dodge toughness?

QuantumFX
09-12-2007, 09:25 PM
I had thought to take weapon finesse, combat expertise, power attack, weapon focus piercing and then improved crit piercing. That still leaves 2 feats maybe dodge, and exotic weapon prof light repeater, or dodge toughness?

Or Power Crit/whatever. (Finesse=on crit effect love. :D )

Also INT is a dumpstat for non rogue dipping rangers. +1 INT tomes are pretty cheap. You could start with a 12 INT and eat the tome later. This will open up 2 base build points for other stuff.

Oh and dipping 2 levels of fighter segways nicely into a STR build too! (Got an elf ranger that started with an 18 STR/18 DEX and have it mapped out where he could hit 30 STR/30 DEX @ lvl 14)

Flint_Redbeard
09-12-2007, 09:51 PM
made the ranger

Drow

STR 14
DEX 18
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 10

Started off lv 1 rgr i think lv2 ftr lv 3 rgr lv4 ftr lv 5-14 rgr

took weapon finesse to start and giant FE. Also im poor atm my highest is lv 10 and i dont play it hah so tomes arnt cheap to me. Come to think of it i think i have a 4 wis ring somewhere so ill be fine.

as for that last feat the fighter gives, toughness, exotic weapon light/hvy repeater or power crit damn hard choices.

QuantumFX
09-13-2007, 12:55 AM
took weapon finesse to start and giant FE. Also im poor atm my highest is lv 10 and i dont play it hah so tomes arnt cheap to me. Come to think of it i think i have a 4 wis ring somewhere so ill be fine.

You just need to watch the AH for a bit. At least on Sarlona INT tomes are a dime a dozen and the high priced ones are posted by people who want them to come back at the end of the auction. (Last one I bought cost 4,000 Plat.)


as for that last feat the fighter gives, toughness, exotic weapon light/hvy repeater or power crit damn hard choices.

Just a reminder - If you go toughness you'll need to make it one of your generic feats. It's not on the fighter bonus feat list.

Also, If you have a buttload of sweet repeaters then use the feat there. Otherwise Powercrit is really nice as it applies to all weapons (All your finesse and ranged.). It stacks with the fighter's crit enhancement too.

CSFurious
09-13-2007, 05:44 AM
first, silver bow is one of the best ranged attacks in the game so you do not need to waste a feat on a repeater

second, you can wait to get your int tome, & once you get your main into the gianthold, you will get one no problem, i pull at least 1 to 2 +1 tomes a week out of there, my drow ranger has already used 4 +1 tomes at level 10 which i guess makes her a 36-point build

EinarMal
09-13-2007, 06:39 AM
Uuuugh!!! Do you REALLY want to redo them?



Not really! The problem is you can sort of guess at how they might implement monks, what class abilities they will get and enhancements but nobody knows. For that matter no one knows how 16-20 will play out in terms of class abilities, enhancements, and lots of other things.

Sadly the chance that you will not have to re-roll, if you are really into optimal builds, is pretty small no matter what you do.

Flint_Redbeard
09-13-2007, 08:43 AM
first off i dont have much time to play each day, and the times i do play are generally morning for a few hours, and there are never any lv 10 groups lfg. Its usually lowbie or lv 14s. As well my first ranger was pretty much bow oriented towards most every feat and i dont have the money to respec every feat.

And most importantly I WANT TO RELEVEL A RANGER. In particular this drow ranger cause its been 13 or 14 months since i played ddo last. I would also like to see what its like to level up now with the new content thats been added, and the way enhancements have been changed.

Oh and id like to try and see this build through to see how i like it, instead of it being another scribble in my notebook from when i get bored...>_<

just my thoughts

Taerdra
09-13-2007, 09:39 AM
Back to the build:
a) Move STR to 14, drop WIS to 10. Spells cast and spell points both work off your modified number, so you will be set there. This is important for overcoming DR and utilizing Power Attack properly. Stats should finish at 20 STR and 34 DEX.

b) Go Ranger 12/Fighter 1/Paladin 1. Pally gets you an extra +1 to save and AC, Fighter gets you an extra feat which you should use. Switch out F1 for Rogue 1 at first level is you want a really good UMD or trap skills. You don't need 2 fighter levels. Take at least Ranger 11 -- that was my only mistake on my build IMO.

c) Feats you should go: lvl 1) Weapon Finesse; 3) CE or Toughness; 6) Power Attack; 9) Imp Crit Pierce; 12) Toughness or CE. Use the Fighter level to pick up either Weapon Focus Pierce or to replace one of your fighter bonus feats (WFin, CE, PA or IC) with a more general feat. Iron Will is best choice in my opinion as your Will save is not going to be that great.

d) You can use Dragonshards on FE feats as well. Take what is useful at the time and then switch them out for higher level content. My overall preference is Undead, Evil Outsider, and Aberration, but Giant is a very reasonable alternative.

e) White Dragon robes look great, but you only get 1 AC versus +7 AC bracers (RR required) and they are a total pain to fix all the time. Personally I would not lock into one robe slot. I've done this as I use it for my Heavy Fort spot, and I am desperately trying to find a Heavy Fort ring because being able to switch is a huge benefit with Greater Axeblock, etc., coming.

Flint_Redbeard
09-13-2007, 11:36 AM
so far ranger 1 ftr 2 ranger 3
toughness
wep fin
dodge

think ill keep the 12 rgr 2 ftr idea cause of the extra feat, no need for pally or rogue imo cause i dont plan to dd and do it very poorly at that so no rogue for me.

Bromm
09-13-2007, 01:31 PM
wrong thread

Soul-Shaker
09-13-2007, 04:31 PM
a) Move STR to 14, drop WIS to 10. Spells cast and spell points both work off your modified number, so you will be set there. This is important for overcoming DR and utilizing Power Attack properly. Stats should finish at 20 STR and 34 DEX.

Agreed unless adding a lvl of monk in future then try to fit str 12/14 wis 14. 14 wis would give max 22 for +6 wis bonus to ac with 1 monk level. also drop int to 12 and find a +1 tome for CE, unless your really patient and to maximize points go 11int, eat a +1 at lvl 1, then eat a +2 later down the line for CE.



e) White Dragon robes look great, but you only get 1 AC versus +7 AC bracers (RR required) and they are a total pain to fix all the time.
Was this suppose to read you only get +1 higher ac over +7 bracers
Chaos garde + robe = 8 vs bracers 7
Yeah it is a little of a pain to fix it, but down the line they will lower/change it, mod5 already lowering it to 5relics.



Personally I would not lock into one robe slot. I've done this as I use it for my Heavy Fort spot, and I am desperately trying to find a Heavy Fort ring because being able to switch is a huge benefit with Greater Axeblock, etc., coming.

Many great piece of loot coming with mod5 that may move your spots. Hvy fort of grtr false life belt. helm with hvy fort + toughness feat.

Jaysensen
09-13-2007, 05:22 PM
Personal AC is all about Survivability. Its not valueless, but its not as valuable TO THE PARTY as AC + Intimidate. On a Ranger, its not about defensive-tanking. Its about killing things and taking less damage.

Elurian had a Ranger-intimiTank he was working on. Very good in concept, but I think he quit a while back.

Adequate AC also helps immensely in zerging. And I mean zerging like doing 15 min TF runs, or 12 min Djinn Orb runs. OBVIOUSLY, if you dont zerg a lot, AC is less valuable, and offense is better.