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hennebux
09-12-2007, 05:31 AM
I understand people want to multi paladins but come on already I'm sick of it.Can we please get some pure pallies in here talking about what's what.We all know pure pallies have been getting the shaft...I'd like to see a build that doesn't include punking out...

For instance, axiomatic better than lawful...
Wizardry better than wisdom for sp...
Adherent's pendant or nightforge gorget ?
Heavy pick improv crit punc ?
Smite evil does it land ?
Amongst many others....

Jondallar
09-12-2007, 08:37 AM
When turbine makes pure paladins have some type of real advantage besides "I'm staying pure in hopes that turbine gives some class love at lvl 20" peole will begin to discuss the minutae of being a pure class paladin. As it stands there is barely any reason to go full paladin. Multiclass makes the paladin so much better.

That being said I have a multiclass Paladin who uses heavy picks and Impr crit is a must, he steals kills all the time. Also he wears the Night forge gorget because A) I cant find anther heavy fort ring and B) He had the neck slot open.

Wisdom is not a must for SP. My paladin has a base wisdom of 12 and with the nightforge helm and a pop8 along with the energy of the templar enhancements and mental toughness has 295 sp, which unless you want to be a primary healer is plenty.

Smite still owns.

Adherent's Pendant blows, turn undead is still broken sacred items come on shields (+5 sacred Mithril Tower).

good enough for ya?;)

Hvymetal
09-12-2007, 01:04 PM
I understand people want to multi paladins but come on already I'm sick of it.Can we please get some pure pallies in here talking about what's what.We all know pure pallies have been getting the shaft...I'd like to see a build that doesn't include punking out...

For instance, axiomatic better than lawful...
Wizardry better than wisdom for sp...
Adherent's pendant or nightforge gorget ?
Heavy pick improv crit punc ?
Smite evil does it land ?
Amongst many others....
I have a pure pally, and a multiclass, but yea unfortunatly my Pure seems to fall a little bit by the wayside each mod that comes out.

Axiomatic vrs. Lawfull, both situational, personally my new fav I am using is a Holy Burst Bastard Sword of Maiming.

Wiz vrs. Wisdom, in a perfect world I'd fit in both, right now I'm using a +6 Wisdom helm, the best Wiz item I have is I and the Wisdom also boosts my Will save by 3.

Adherent's Pendant vrs. Nightforge Gorget, I'd say the gorget, I made a mistake and took the Nightforge Plate when BAM 1st came out. Eventually things worked out for me, I pulled an Ancient Band I now wear for the Hvy. Fort and so now I wear the Adherents Pendant for the extra SP and because I am probablly one of the few Pally's w/ cure mod on my list and I use my sp to help back up heal after I've buffed everyone and left a pool for Divine Favor.

Smite Evil, yes still use it all the time.

Unfortunatly until we get some love there doesn't seem to be much to discuss without getting all the pure Pally's depressed:(

Dworkin_of_Amber
09-12-2007, 02:49 PM
My recent "Paladin Build Guide" started with a 14 Paladin build.

But the reality is that past Level 11, there just is no convincing reason to stay a Paladin, and way too many good reasons to multi-class (Tower Shields, Bonus Feats, Evasion, Skill Points, SP, etc). The L3 & L4 spells are underwhelming (although, with what I'm hearing about Mod 5 Deathward may be far more important than we ever knew), and the AP's just don't shine either.

Give me a good reason to go more than 11 Paladin, and I'll be more than happy to crank out good Pure Paladin builds.

hennebux
09-29-2007, 10:44 PM
I agree completely with the fact that "pure" pallies get the shaft.I have 2 capped.I would also like to add that wizardry is better for sp than wisdom you can always pick up resistance items easier. Also I rock pop's but it seems to me we're the least equipable class cause we got so many stats too feed

KoboldKiller
09-30-2007, 12:06 AM
I have a good reason to stay pure, because Paladins are pure and righteous. To taint the blood of a Paladin is an abomination and all "multi-classed" Paladins should be spurned and purged.

Thank You,
Leothalas

Jondallar
09-30-2007, 04:09 AM
I have a good reason to stay pure, because Paladins are pure and righteous. To taint the blood of a Paladin is an abomination and all "multi-classed" Paladins should be spurned and purged.



What if the Paladin had a troubled past...say born in the slums forced to learn how to steal(rogue) in order to survive, then becoming a street thug (fighter)until finally being called by the silver flame to be a paladin. Hows that for your roleplaying need to be a pure paladin.:D
Jond

Hvymetal
09-30-2007, 06:52 AM
I agree completely with the fact that "pure" pallies get the shaft.I have 2 capped.I would also like to add that wizardry is better for sp than wisdom you can always pick up resistance items easier. Also I rock pop's but it seems to me we're the least equipable class cause we got so many stats too feed
I agree that wizardry is better, but I havent gotten better than a wiz II item for my pally really, and along with Karadin's Eye my will save is fairly high witha +6 wis helm:)

Riddikulus
09-30-2007, 08:28 AM
But the reality is that past Level 11, there just is no convincing reason to stay a Paladin, and way too many good reasons to multi-class (Tower Shields, Bonus Feats, Evasion, Skill Points, SP, etc). The L3 & L4 spells are underwhelming (although, with what I'm hearing about Mod 5 Deathward may be far more important than we ever knew), and the AP's just don't shine either.

Give me a good reason to go more than 11 Paladin, and I'll be more than happy to crank out good Pure Paladin builds.
Agreed.

I think the reduction of the base AC aura from 2 to 1 was an attempt to make purer pally more enticing, but I haven't seen that do much... there are more MC builds than ever.

The fact is that three levels of paladin gives you all of the paladin benefits except for a couple extra points on AC/saves/loh/smite. My fighter10/pally3/ranger1 MC is absolutely superior to my pure pally in every way.

I'm not sure what can be done to "fix" paladins.

Frodo_Lives
09-30-2007, 12:54 PM
I have a pure lvl 14 capped pally and I can tell you compared to my fighter he is gimped. I still enjoy playing him and he is a good addition to the group with his auras, healing, and buffs but he can't come close to a fighter or barbarian for pure melee damage.

My paladin has resorted to using smiters, vorpals, disruption weapons simply because I can't do enough damage otherwise except for smite.

I have a multi class paladin which is a 6/2 Paladin/Rogue who will go the rest of the way fighter that I think will turn out quite nicely, but even then I still think I took a few to many levels of paladin.

Paladins have gotten the shaft, and while they are fun at low levels they just don't add up to be what they should at higher levels.

axebender
09-30-2007, 02:49 PM
the reasoning i think pure pally is out of style is dps is the new sexy thing. so people forsake the pally for fighter. a paladin is not a dps machine and kill counts mean nothing. i agree i love stayin pure pally and unfortunately paladins wont see anymore real love till end game if and when we see epic lvls. but point blank a well built pure pally can out last most classes in a quest despite not being able to pour out the damage. with a little patients and time the mob will die anyways just takes a little longer. hopefully with epic lvls all those that didnt go pure will be at aww of the paladins greatness.

Mhykke
09-30-2007, 05:20 PM
the reasoning i think pure pally is out of style is dps is the new sexy thing. so people forsake the pally for fighter. a paladin is not a dps machine and kill counts mean nothing. i agree i love stayin pure pally and unfortunately paladins wont see anymore real love till end game if and when we see epic lvls. but point blank a well built pure pally can out last most classes in a quest despite not being able to pour out the damage. with a little patients and time the mob will die anyways just takes a little longer. hopefully with epic lvls all those that didnt go pure will be at aww of the paladins greatness.

Slight correction.
People don't forsake pally for fighter. They forsake pally for barbarian, if they're looking for dps.
If a paladin goes for DPS, he can hang well enough w/ fighters.


That being said, my main is a pure pally, and like was previously mentioned, the only reason I stay pure is in the hope that something gets tossed my way. We've seen races and classes get buffs, while paladins got nerfs. It ain't right I tells ya!

axebender
09-30-2007, 07:32 PM
i agree the devs nerf pally because of the core rules like the nerf to divin power..but this is rediculas this game has become ddo not pnp ridiculously high hp mobs and a pnp based pally dont make sense they should have been more leanent with our extra 1 pt of ac they took away and divin power should have been left alone. though dp is still usefull ddo have to realize that its not balancing classes by making it more pnp when that got thrown out the window since launch

Mhykke
09-30-2007, 10:50 PM
i agree the devs nerf pally because of the core rules like the nerf to divin power..but this is rediculas this game has become ddo not pnp ridiculously high hp mobs and a pnp based pally dont make sense they should have been more leanent with our extra 1 pt of ac they took away and divin power should have been left alone. though dp is still usefull ddo have to realize that its not balancing classes by making it more pnp when that got thrown out the window since launch

You won't find an argument from me. Paladins were hardly an overpowerful melee class before the nerf to aura and DF. In today's DDO, it's even more laughable looking at those nerfs.

Hvymetal
10-01-2007, 03:52 AM
You won't find an argument from me. Paladins were hardly an overpowerful melee class before the nerf to aura and DF. In today's DDO, it's even more laughable looking at those nerfs.
You guys stop, you are making my Paladin, very very sad. And where's our Holy Avengers I say? Get one now it would be a "meh" weapon. I am guessing they will never be implimented.

khonda
10-01-2007, 02:06 PM
I don't think there's anything wrong with the paladin class at higher levels. It all depends on what it is you are looking for in your character.

It's all a matter of give-and-take. My paladin is level 14. I could have splashed rogue for evasion, or fighter for extra feats; both were very tempting and very valid approaches. But I stayed as I did not want to dilute my attack bonus (-1 BAB for taking two levels of rogue) or will saves. Multi-classing also dilutes your caster-level and spell points.

And as a 14th level paladin, I can cast resist enery and death ward that is every bit as powerful as a cleric, and lasts just as long. I stayed pure paladin for that reason alone. I can cast extended resists and deathward on myself and others. In a way, I am "giving" 300 spell points to my party's cleric so she won't have to cast those resists, and can then cast more heals, destructions, etc.

I find the pure paladin is a good utility character. Providing an aura for the melees and providing extra spell points to the casters. All while maintaining full BAB, good armor class, and excellent saves.

I think paladins fit very well into the grand scheme of things. They don't dps as well as fighters and barbs, but make up for it with healing, buffing and auras.

Don't fear OP, there are other pure paladins out there :D

bandyman1
10-02-2007, 06:23 AM
I have a pure lvl 14 capped pally and I can tell you compared to my fighter he is gimped. I still enjoy playing him and he is a good addition to the group with his auras, healing, and buffs but he can't come close to a fighter or barbarian for pure melee damage.

My paladin has resorted to using smiters, vorpals, disruption weapons simply because I can't do enough damage otherwise except for smite.

I have a multi class paladin which is a 6/2 Paladin/Rogue who will go the rest of the way fighter that I think will turn out quite nicely, but even then I still think I took a few to many levels of paladin.

Paladins have gotten the shaft, and while they are fun at low levels they just don't add up to be what they should at higher levels.

That's the part I don't understand. Why not? Best case senario, a fighter gets +3 Str from enhancements. That's +1 to hit and damage. And with max lvl Divine favor, it's the fighter that's behind the pally.

Neither can come close to a DPS speced barb.

Riddikulus
10-02-2007, 06:53 AM
And as a 14th level paladin, I can cast resist enery and death ward that is every bit as powerful as a cleric, and lasts just as long. I stayed pure paladin for that reason alone. I can cast extended resists and deathward on myself and others. In a way, I am "giving" 300 spell points to my party's cleric so she won't have to cast those resists, and can then cast more heals, destructions, etc.
So your one big plus for Paladins is actually a diversion from the PnP rules and therefore subject to someday being nerfed?

In PnP a level 14 Paladin has a caster level of 7, so you should only be half as good as a cleric.

Paladins are in a sad state in DDO... and most of it has to do with inflated HP and AC that everyone has here.

Hvymetal
10-02-2007, 11:08 AM
So your one big plus for Paladins is actually a diversion from the PnP rules and therefore subject to someday being nerfed?

In PnP a level 14 Paladin has a caster level of 7, so you should only be half as good as a cleric.

Paladins are in a sad state in DDO... and most of it has to do with inflated HP and AC that everyone has here.
QFT, and most especially the inflated AC and HP on the MOBs, and inflated attack bonuses while were at it. It might be nice to see a few class-specific items out there, not sure really how that would go just got off work, the sun is up and can't really think too well ATM.

Blazer
10-02-2007, 11:15 AM
I wouldn't say a paladin is way behind a fighter, either, but they can be. To keep a paladin up with a fighter, you have to build more offensively than most paladins I've seen in game are built. Assuming the fighter has taken all the WS and WF feats, he's got an inherent +2 to hit (WF and GWF) and +4 to damage (WS and GWS). The paladin could take WF, but the other 3 feats are fighter only. So...

Paladin: WF, DF = +4 to hit, +3 to damage
Fighter: WF, GWF, WS, GWS = +2 to hit, +4 to damage

The difference I see is that the paladin needs a SP pool to get that +3/+3 from DF. Most times he can keep that running throughout a quest, but against beholders it's useless. His DF could also be dispelled, though I don't remember that happening often on my pure paladin. The fighter has an inherent +2 to hit and +4 to damage that is always present, although it is typed for a specific weapon type (typically slashing). The +3/+3 from DF is applicable to whatever weapon the paladin uses.

khonda
10-02-2007, 11:28 AM
So your one big plus for Paladins is actually a diversion from the PnP rules and therefore subject to someday being nerfed?

In PnP a level 14 Paladin has a caster level of 7, so you should only be half as good as a cleric.

Paladins are in a sad state in DDO... and most of it has to do with inflated HP and AC that everyone has here.

If that's the case, I better prepare to have Lay on Hands nerfed too, since that heals far more than in PnP.

As it stands though, there are currently benefits of playing a paladin to level 14. Will they nerf it? Perhaps, they did do it with evasion.

But sorcerors and bards can change out spells, and rangers get both archery and two weapon fighting lines. There are significant deviations from PnP that were made intentionally.

Currently, I do feel that paladins do have benefits to play to high levels as compared to barbarians and fighters. If their spell casting is nerfed, then I would definitely agree that high level paladins would be far too limited compared to the others. I may retire my paladin at that point. But until then, I'll enjoy my level 14 paladin. :)

Zenako
10-02-2007, 11:59 AM
Pure Paly (see below). With Magi item in hand, have over 450 Spell points to start a quest.

Buffs abound. Death Ward is focused. Gonna be needing that one often it seems. Three LoHs, and Divine Sovereignty every 20 minutes.

The effective DPS of Divine Sovereignty on a boss undead is REAL nice., followed by LoH and you can drop many of them real fast. Mix in a smite or two with a nice weapon.

One nice thing most of the Paladin spells have no material components to worry about or keep on hand. Freeeing up a few inventory slots.

Failing saves? Not very often thank you.

The role and benefits of being a Paladin increase as the party size decreases from what I have seen. I can take the role of a Cleric if needed (except for Raise Dead - that UMD is just too high to cover). I can fight quite effectively. Do I have the DPS of a raging barbarian...nope. But the mobs will die.

Oh I also have Cure Mod Focused and with the Adherents Pendant and some enhancements to Healing spells can do quite respectible amounts of healing that way.

sigtrent
10-02-2007, 12:52 PM
I just don't care about class purity. For me each class just one tool to make the character I want. Just like I am not defined by my job, a character is not wholy defined by his class.

Paladins will no doubt get some upper end enhancments eventualy, all the classes probably will. The game only ends at 14 for the moment. Eventualy it will likely get up to 20 and there will be more reasons for and agaisnt staying pure to any class.

I think the advantage a pure paladin has would be in spell casting. If you build with it in mind, a paladin could have a decent SP pool and access to a number of usefull buffs for the party. Instead of just casting on yoruself you could, as many rangers do, provide the whole party wtih some protections.

Paladins are essentialy a defensive fighting class with offensive strenghts agaisnt specific enemies. They arn't so great in DDO for two reasons.
1. Few quests fully test the wide range of defenses paladins have
2. Many of the paladins most powerful benefits come early

axebender
10-02-2007, 07:59 PM
this is true but at epic lvls if we ever reach that stage of the game has some great epic feats for paladins that just make them so much better at what they do

bandyman1
10-05-2007, 09:40 PM
I wouldn't say a paladin is way behind a fighter, either, but they can be. To keep a paladin up with a fighter, you have to build more offensively than most paladins I've seen in game are built. Assuming the fighter has taken all the WS and WF feats, he's got an inherent +2 to hit (WF and GWF) and +4 to damage (WS and GWS). The paladin could take WF, but the other 3 feats are fighter only. So...

Paladin: WF, DF = +4 to hit, +3 to damage
Fighter: WF, GWF, WS, GWS = +2 to hit, +4 to damage

The difference I see is that the paladin needs a SP pool to get that +3/+3 from DF. Most times he can keep that running throughout a quest, but against beholders it's useless. His DF could also be dispelled, though I don't remember that happening often on my pure paladin. The fighter has an inherent +2 to hit and +4 to damage that is always present, although it is typed for a specific weapon type (typically slashing). The +3/+3 from DF is applicable to whatever weapon the paladin uses.

I agree with your assessment here, but you have to keep in mind that those are specific scenarios. And the pally can still boost DPS over the fighter in those instances with smite evil.

So, I stand by my original opinion of a paladin's DPS, is NOT gimped compared to a fighters. Just because someone's pure paladin build is when compared to that same person's fighter build, does NOT mean that that is the way things stand across the board.

Frodo_Lives
10-06-2007, 07:32 PM
I have yet to see many paladins do the kind of damage over the long haul that a well built fighter can do. Maybe it's just me because I know that therre are some excellent DPS paladins out there.

I will admit that if I rebuilt my paladin today there are a few things I would do differently. He is a drow but he does not need to start with an 18 cha or a 14 wis. I would bump up str a couple of points and probably go a more combat oriented route in terms of feats.

I didn't mean to imply that my paladin is a waste of space for the party, he does have 524 sp and can buff the heck out the party and has a number of good points. It's just compared to a combat oriented fighter or barbarian his DPS over the long haul isn't in the same area.

Pure Paladins have gotten hit with a few nerfs though. DF, smite, and the aura nerfs did make them less desireable than before. The reduction in importance of AC at high end content means that the AC buffs they do give are not as important. They have a few good spells that can save the cleric some sp and with the right smite they can dish out a lot of damage over a short period of time.

Mhykke
10-06-2007, 07:42 PM
I have yet to see many paladins do the kind of damage over the long haul that a well built fighter can do. Maybe it's just me because I know that therre are some excellent DPS paladins out there.

I will admit that if I rebuilt my paladin today there are a few things I would do differently. He is a drow but he does not need to start with an 18 cha or a 14 wis. I would bump up str a couple of points and probably go a more combat oriented route in terms of feats.

I didn't mean to imply that my paladin is a waste of space for the party, he does have 524 sp and can buff the heck out the party and has a number of good points. It's just compared to a combat oriented fighter or barbarian his DPS over the long haul isn't in the same area.

Pure Paladins have gotten hit with a few nerfs though. DF, smite, and the aura nerfs did make them less desireable than before. The reduction in importance of AC at high end content means that the AC buffs they do give are not as important. They have a few good spells that can save the cleric some sp and with the right smite they can dish out a lot of damage over a short period of time.

You're not comparing apples to apples. If your pally started w/ an 18 cha and a 14 wis, then you simply can't compare that to a "combat oriented fighter or barbarian". You need to compare the combat oriented paladin to that of a combat oriented fighter. My pally started w/ 18 str, and compares somewhat well to fighters in terms of DPS, but I've absolutely had to go the DPS route completely (max str, power attack, bloodstone, etc.) to compare well.

Compared to DPS barbarians, well, there's no comparison. Barbs leave both in the dust.

bandyman1
10-06-2007, 08:13 PM
I have yet to see many paladins do the kind of damage over the long haul that a well built fighter can do. Maybe it's just me because I know that therre are some excellent DPS paladins out there.

I will admit that if I rebuilt my paladin today there are a few things I would do differently. He is a drow but he does not need to start with an 18 cha or a 14 wis. I would bump up str a couple of points and probably go a more combat oriented route in terms of feats.

I didn't mean to imply that my paladin is a waste of space for the party, he does have 524 sp and can buff the heck out the party and has a number of good points. It's just compared to a combat oriented fighter or barbarian his DPS over the long haul isn't in the same area.

Pure Paladins have gotten hit with a few nerfs though. DF, smite, and the aura nerfs did make them less desireable than before. The reduction in importance of AC at high end content means that the AC buffs they do give are not as important. They have a few good spells that can save the cleric some sp and with the right smite they can dish out a lot of damage over a short period of time.

I never meant to imply that you meant your paladin was a waste bro. My response was motivated by the fact that this opinion has seemed to become prevalent of late, and I really don't understand why :confused: .

I have a 14th lvl pure fighter. I also have a 14th lvl pure pally ( 28 point build ), and her 9th lvl ( 32 point ) rebuild.

Zyndris has maxed Str., which puts her at 32 ( +2 tome ) at lvl 14 without rage pots, or madstone rage/effects. She also has GWF, GWS, and Ipr. crit.
With a standard +5 khopesh, she'd dish out 1-8 + 25 per strike with PA on, at + 27 to hit. Crits on a 17-20 for 3x damage + 18 for her bloodstone. That's of course assuming no bard songs, and not using GH.

Now Selyra will have a 28 Str. ( +1 tome ) at lvl 14 without the same mods I didn't use on Zyn. I have Imp. crit, but no WF or WS, but I can DF myself constantly.
With the same +5 khopesh, she'll dish out 1-8 + 22 per strike with PA on, at + 26 to hit. Same crit range, same mods on a crit.

Now the situations Blazer mentioned do arise, but they aren't prevalent by any means. And Sel has smite evil for those situations, allowing her a massive boost to DPS over the fighter in those instances.

So that's 3 points of damage per strike lower than my fighter, or 9 on a crit. Assuming I pull a +3 Str tome somewhere along the way, the gap would narrow to 2 points per strike, and 6 on a crit.

I just don't see how that could be considered gimp :confused: .

Especially since Sel could use every bit of SP for DF, and still would have better saves, healing/neg-effect wand usage, and 3 LoH/1 unyielding sovereignty to use per rest. And between the daggertooth's belt and maxed bulwark, will have an AC = to a dwarven fighter with both armor mastery lines maxed.

Don't get me wrong, I love my fighter....but I love my pally too. And she's not gimped compared to any one-handed fighter builds I've seen.

Mithran
10-15-2007, 07:24 AM
The problem with many Fighter and Barbarian builds is that they are cleric-reliant, and Fighters and Barbarians don't typically make donations to clerics; that's the job of the tithing paladin.

Brutality is my second paladin build, and Finduilas is about my sixth or seventh. Paladins have more demands on their stat points than Fighters do, but they don't need to beg clerics for their various resistances, Restorations, and heals. Brutality has nowhere near the Str needed for survival. Ermizhad doesn't have the Hit Points. I think I've hit my own style of play's sweet spot with a 1 Fighter/11 Paladin/2 Rogue build. I'm working on a pure Paladin at the same time, but the 2 levels of rogue help a lot, and Dexterity comes cheap to elves, my chosen race.

Lillitheris
10-15-2007, 09:18 AM
A 24 Str paladin is basically the same as a 30 Str fighter thanks to Divine Favor.
The fighter might have a few extra feats - but the paladin has access to a good selection of spells, up to 4 LoHs, astronomical saves and almost equal AC.

I don't know what all this fuss is about. Caius (pure 14 paladin) can hold his own in every quest out there. Even though she is not pure, the same goes for Lucilla (drow 12 paladin / 2 fighter, 28 Str and Power Attack).

Kaboth
10-15-2007, 01:00 PM
Well I can say my Drow Pally 14 is not gimped. He may not have the most outrageous DPS, He may not have the best AC, he may not have the most HP but he IS very self-suffcient, with a pretty good AC and Pretty good HP, with pretty good DPS, one of the best saves in the game, etc..

My pally has about 250 HP, a 46 AC, Uses Khopeshes for DPS, has a almost a 200 point heal 3/rest, has a 20 UMD, 400 SP, 5 smite evils a day, his buffs, and his str is a 25 and his Cha is a 26 and his saves are in the mid twenties or higher. I am sure I could tweek him out more if need be, but he holds his own pretty good.

This not to say that Pally's could maybe use so pure build love, but I hardly think its the doom and gloom predicted here.

Yvonne_Blacksword
10-15-2007, 01:18 PM
My pure pali got deleted...
Sure!
She had great saves and the whole LOH stuff was cool...

But by level 12 she was just too...weak?

Might have been my build but I started to think 4 levels were all you needed...

I like pure builds with a future.

I am not into the fact that pali's in DDO dabble...a little rogue..a little fighter.

I was always under the belief that holy knights should remain pure...in every way.

Therefore, until it is fixed, and pali becomes undecidedly valuable to the party...other than that aura thingie, wand usage and saves...I will play other fighter types.

In my mind, a pali should not train with scalywags, brutes and those of questionable moral standing...

Purity of mind and soul used to mean something...
Now with a little time and effort...almost anyone can dabble in purity!

Twerpp
10-15-2007, 02:01 PM
In this video-game of mobs with +500hp one lousy hit of smite evil isn't being scaled properly. In PnP it can be a game-breaking incapacitating blow that kills the boss baddie and saves the day, here its equivalent to one really nice crit, and yes a damn nice crit if you crit on it. However as a class special abilty it should be in scale with the mega hit-points given to mobs, it should be either a short action boost (20 is way too long) or Pallys should be given some more smite evils. I dont think a 5 second smite evil action boost would be overpowered or give Pallys an edge over over melees but bring them more in line with this video game where right now the PnP-like implentation is a little weak, its good for setting a one-hit high record that's about it.

What do you guys think?

Twerpp
10-15-2007, 02:11 PM
My pure pali got deleted...
Sure!
She had great saves and the whole LOH stuff was cool...

But by level 12 she was just too...weak?

Might have been my build but I started to think 4 levels were all you needed...

I like pure builds with a future.

I am not into the fact that pali's in DDO dabble...a little rogue..a little fighter.

I was always under the belief that holy knights should remain pure...in every way.

Therefore, until it is fixed, and pali becomes undecidedly valuable to the party...other than that aura thingie, wand usage and saves...I will play other fighter types.

In my mind, a pali should not train with scalywags, brutes and those of questionable moral standing...

Purity of mind and soul used to mean something...
Now with a little time and effort...almost anyone can dabble in purity!

Sorry you deleted your pally because you felt so weak. As for the RP soapbox youre standing on you can't account for every persons story line. A rogue who found religion, a squire or knight who fought to be in the ranks of a holy order, or a Paladin fed up with the hierarchy of their order decides to grow in a different direction. Pure pally does need some love but should never be the fighter/barbs equal in melee. Multiclassing is all about diversity in builds and what class doesn't want a taste of the pallys awesome defensive power?

I do think full pallys should get back their +5 Aura's especially at 14th level elite content there's no way you can say the extra +1 AC/Save is overpowered.

PS I do think sorc/pally is a tough one to explain!

Jondallar
10-15-2007, 02:36 PM
In this video-game of mobs with +500hp one lousy hit of smite evil isn't being scaled properly. In PnP it can be a game-breaking incapacitating blow that kills the boss baddie and saves the day, here its equivalent to one really nice crit, and yes a damn nice crit if you crit on it. However as a class special abilty it should be in scale with the mega hit-points given to mobs, it should be either a short action boost (20 is way too long) or Pallys should be given some more smite evils. I dont think a 5 second smite evil action boost would be overpowered or give Pallys an edge over over melees but bring them more in line with this video game where right now the PnP-like implentation is a little weak, its good for setting a one-hit high record that's about it.

What do you guys think?

I like that Idea, I find that my Smites are nice for UNdead boss types, its like getting a crit, However, its been ages (multiple months of playing) since I critted on a smit evil, and often have been actually missing mobs by rolling a 1 with my smites:( . The timer (5 sec) or adding more smits would be better, or they could fudge the numbers like they have done with LoH and maybe smits would be better

hennebux
10-19-2007, 11:06 AM
Thnx for all the constructive feedback :D I was not trying to imply that pure pallies at 14 are gimp but like some one else said they are not invaluable to a party at high level.I feel the point does prove out though that the class was nerfed back at enhancements and there is an apparent gulf between multi's, other melees, and pallies.With paladins always coming out inferior.Remember if you would, smite evil doesn't always land. I've seen it miss a heck of alot.Loh is marginalized by the massive amount of hps flying around today.
The fact that pallies have to equip so many items just to hang, imho clearly outweighs their buffing abilty.Fighters and barbarians generally wear what they want, and trust me, can shuffle said gear a heck of alot easier when a nice item drops for them.When comparing paladins to other melees. I feel it's inconceivable for anyone to come up with a pure pally build that is on par.As well as the further embarassment that people who splash pally are more powerful than your pure class.Can any other class claim these lowly distinctions?

For suggestions.I agree with pure pally only loot, as well as the five second smite thing.I would also like to see an improved pally spell list with more pally only spells.A return on the auras to original but only at highest end.Heck might as well buff loh a little too.Some high end divine abilities would also be great (imagine intercession!)

As far as enhancements go...boy I could spend an hour on that alone...So far pally skills, ability points,and enhancements need a complete overhaul.I'll save that for another day...

P.s. Whoever said unyielding sovereignty worked on enemies ,hasn't been in contact with his deity lately...

llevenbaxx
10-25-2007, 02:37 PM
The fact that pallies have to equip so many items just to hang, imho clearly outweighs their buffing abilty.Fighters and barbarians generally wear what they want, and trust me, can shuffle said gear a heck of alot easier when a nice item drops for them.When comparing paladins to other melees. I feel it's inconceivable for anyone to come up with a pure pally build that is on par.As well as the further embarassment that people who splash pally are more powerful than your pure class.Can any other class claim these lowly distinctions?



Depends on what you mean by more powerful. I dont thinks its an embarassment at all that a paly that splashes ftr is a slightly better ftr, kinda makes sense actually. Or that one that splashes rogue is a little more versatile. Pure class shouldnt really be any better or worse than a MC, just different;)

That said I wouldnt mind either seeing smite evil get a revamp. We need a couple more per rest or have it do about 2-2.5X more damage. It doesnt scale in uses with the amount of combat in the game or in damage with the amount of hps the mobs have. This is a combat game, the combat class feats should get the same steroids, the rest of the game and other classes injected.

Emili
11-01-2007, 05:09 AM
A 24 Str paladin is basically the same as a 30 Str fighter thanks to Divine Favor.
The fighter might have a few extra feats - but the paladin has access to a good selection of spells, up to 4 LoHs, astronomical saves and almost equal AC.

I don't know what all this fuss is about. Caius (pure 14 paladin) can hold his own in every quest out there. Even though she is not pure, the same goes for Lucilla (drow 12 paladin / 2 fighter, 28 Str and Power Attack).


Fighter and pally fall at about the same to-hit and damages... most fighters however (when build for damage output) sport greater weapon specialization and power attack which comes to the equal of a pally under it's DF. My amilia (Pally) with her 28 str falls a little shy of my Emili (fighter) with her 32 str in overall dps... reason being though I think is Emili confirms every single crit in comparison to Ami... Emili also has cleaves and improved trip among other feats and enhancements to shore her up. Flanking mastery - which I used to consider a waste (but took for lack of other enhancements) makes quite a difference in a mobile combatant. Generally speaking though my fighters seem to have about 20% more dps on average then Amilia sporting her DF and smites. They use pretty mush the same weapons also SoS, nice 2handers and khopeshes. Both fighter and pally however do fall far behind the curve of a barbs greater rage combined with the critical rage enhancements... with an SoS and critting on 13 (40% of thier rolls) a damage built barb is pulling down the mob faster than any melee (self-buff a barb up to 50 str and a barb is brutal).

wizzy_catt
11-01-2007, 05:27 AM
Both fighter and pally however do fall far behind the curve of a barbs greater rage combined with the critical rage enhancements... with an SoS and critting on 13 a damage built barb is pulling down the mob faster than any melee (self-buff a barb up to 50 str) and one out of 4 swings is well over 200.

48 str(so quicktoezy says) but if you want add extra potions hmmm yep 51 can be achieved. hmm what are you doing here lol go get some rests ;)
quadruple rage: double madstone rage + barbie rage + rage clicky/potion am i missing something?

jmonty
11-01-2007, 09:52 AM
after taking power attack and eating a 2 str tome, my pure pally seems to do alot better than before.

alot of this game is what gear you have and what you do with it. you just need the best weapons against the enemies you are fighting to come out on top.

jmonty
11-01-2007, 09:57 AM
48 str(so quicktoezy says) but if you want add extra potions hmmm yep 51 can be achieved. hmm what are you doing here lol go get some rests ;)
quadruple rage: double madstone rage + barbie rage + rage clicky/potion am i missing something?

wow, that is alot of strength. :D

maybe rage shouldn't stack...