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paulmoore
09-11-2007, 09:46 PM
For some reason or another, I have an infatuation with building TWF toons. My best one is a Drow TWF named Tovah. She uses a Flaming burst scimitar main, flaming burst kukri offhand, and deals out some serious damage. Her AC is lacking however, and her saves aren't all that great. Right now she is a pure ranger at lvl 8. In any given quest, I get hit alot, and get hit hard. I don't want to be a mana sponge cause of the low AC, but on the same token I want to get in there and help out and not sit idly by while the party I'm in gets hammered. I would like to build a better, less gimped version if you will. Something that has decent to hit and damage, but has good saves and AC to go with it. Here are a few ideas that I have been kicking around....

2Pally/6Fighter/6Ranger- The 2 lvls of pally to get fear immunity and divine grace to help out with the saves as well as medium/heavy armor proficiency. The fighter levels are for weapon feats, FAM I and fighters strength I. The ranger levels are for the free TWF feats which brings me to a question...

At ranger level 2 you get TWF and Point Blank shot??? even though you don't need to meet the prerequisites for them. Now the TWF chain goes all the way up to lvl 12 with GTWF. If I were to use the multiclass above, I would get the TWF feat at the second ranger level, but would I be able to get ITWF and GTWF if I only have a total of 6 ranger levels, or does it go by total character levels??

I am really open to any suggestion here. I would prefer not to make a dwarf but will if I find the need to substantially raise the AC with DAM enhancements. I prefer slashing weapons, and really like the scimitar/kukri combo as they have a very wide crit range, decent damage, and I am not wasting a feat on a khopesh. I don't have any issues with piercing weapons, just haven't messed around with any lately although the elf/drow to get bonus to hit and damage with rapiers/shortswords/longswords(for elves) but the max for those is only a +2. I'd like to see what kind of TWF toons others have made that work pretty well and maybe try to tweak them to fit my style. Thanks in advance for anyone who can take the time to give me some input or suggestions!!

tihocan
09-12-2007, 08:58 AM
Now the TWF chain goes all the way up to lvl 12 with GTWF. If I were to use the multiclass above, I would get the TWF feat at the second ranger level, but would I be able to get ITWF and GTWF if I only have a total of 6 ranger levels, or does it go by total character levels??
You need 6 ranger levels, but you can also pick them as regular feats.

I have a twinked alt I play for fun who is a TWF pure fighter dwarf. I think it's best to get good AC with the fighter/dwarf AM enhancements. The build is something like str 18 / dex 16 / int 12 / ... with +1 dex and int tome to meet prereqs for ITWF and Combat Expertise (mandatory if you want AC). I'll also pick improved trip and stunning blow.
Just a suggestion to play with :)

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 09:09 AM
Though not popular, there is one post about this type of build, a dragonmark elf with lesser mark of shadow gets displacement. If you pick up the feat extend (can after 4 levels of Ranger) and the extra dragon mark enhancements you can use an extended dragon mark displacment 5x per shrine. This displacement will last 14*6s x2 extended or 168 seconds for a total of 840 seconds per shrine. That is over 14 minutes of constant displacement.

So if you go Ranger 11/Paladin 3 or Ranger 11/Pally 2/Ftr 1, and use your feats on extend, least mark of shadow, lesser mark of shadow, IC Piercing or Slashing, and one other of your choice you get saves and "AC" through displacement.

To match the 50% miss chance of displacement you would need an AC in the mid-40's to upper 40's at least in the end game and that is tough to do while TWF without some awesome gear. You cannot go with med/heavy armor either unless you want to lose evasion.

Impaqt
09-12-2007, 09:29 AM
I've build a lot of TWF Characters....

at Ranger 6 you get ITWF.

Once you hit BAB +11 you can take GTWF as a Feat Choice... Fighter Bonus or regular level feat.

There are a few Dwarven Ranger Builds around that can really get the AC and HP's up to rediculous levels.....

I also posted a nice Barb/Ranger/Fighter build the other day that should be a couple posts below this.

Taerdra
09-12-2007, 09:58 AM
A couple of thoughts:
1) You really need to fit TWF, ITWF, and GTWF into your build if you want to be a premium damage dealer.
2) TWF is somewhat more gear-dependent than the traditional 2Handed method. That means if you really want to optimize your character you need to loot A LOT and you can't get discouraged on the way.

In terms of defense, there are really some clear ways to go:
1) High-DEX build, probably elf or drow: Bonuses of this are it is not class-dependent due to high DEX, you get swappability with robes that improves your flexibility a great deal. You will have to sacrifice some STR, but as long as you start at 14+ you will be OK. ACs can get into the high 40s without a shield and 50+ with a shield. I recommend Ranger as your base class, but that is preference. Rogue adds sneak damage. You can also go stat-damage on a build here, but that is truly uber weaponry.
2) Dwarf-based build. You can also get into high 40s pretty easily by using the AM enhancements. Bonuses here are you can maintain a much higher STR and keep your damage up and Rangers IMO have a weak enhancement line that allows for you to spend big in this category. You need at least Rgr 11 on this one as your DEX won't be as high as you need for straight feats.

After that, I think all TWFers wind up with low 40s-high 30s AC and you can do multiple things. Barbs are particularly good in that regard as they have high HP anyway and with Rages can drive STR into the 40+ area as well. You can also go multiple ways with weapons: Rapier for uber stat damage or Heavy Picks for uber crit damage.

My 2 cents anyway.

Aspenor
09-12-2007, 10:21 AM
The most defensive TWF character I have ever seen is actually my spellsword hybrid. I don't think I've had a cleric heal me since he made level 14 :) I'm talking little to no damage, pretty much constantly. His primary benefit is his ability to buff himself with arcane spells. I don't worry a whole lot about AC, but I do use extensive damage reduction (stoneskin & displacement constantly, elemental resists) and his saves are ridiculous high.

He's an 8sorceror/4paladin/2rogue. Two rogue levels for evasion, UMD, and sneak attack damage/rogue attack bonuses. I spread the rogue levels out, taking level 1 as rogue and level 9 as rogue, maxxing UMD at level 1 and skipping it from level 2-8, then dumping ALL my level 9 rogue skill points into UMD. I have a similar UMD to a pure rogue.

I went drow for the racial bonuses to charisma, intelligence, and dexterity. Additionally, I use the drow racial bonuses to melee with shortswords and rapiers.

Four levels of paladin offer divine grace, disease and fear immunity, and casting divine favor from mana. My saves with Greater Heroism are approximately 27/34/24, from memory.

I recommend going strength based, whereas I went dex based, will reroll eventually because this build is so much fun :)

Honestly though, it can be a tough build to play for the early levels. By level 14 though, you are a defensive TWF powerhouse with access to arcane buffs, self healing, lay on hands, UMD, evasion, and totally sick saves.

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 12:33 PM
The most defensive TWF character I have ever seen is actually my spellsword hybrid. I don't think I've had a cleric heal me since he made level 14 :) I'm talking little to no damage, pretty much constantly. His primary benefit is his ability to buff himself with arcane spells. I don't worry a whole lot about AC, but I do use extensive damage reduction (stoneskin & displacement constantly, elemental resists) and his saves are ridiculous high.

He's an 8sorceror/4paladin/2rogue. Two rogue levels for evasion, UMD, and sneak attack damage/rogue attack bonuses. I spread the rogue levels out, taking level 1 as rogue and level 9 as rogue, maxxing UMD at level 1 and skipping it from level 2-8, then dumping ALL my level 9 rogue skill points into UMD. I have a similar UMD to a pure rogue.

I went drow for the racial bonuses to charisma, intelligence, and dexterity. Additionally, I use the drow racial bonuses to melee with shortswords and rapiers.

Four levels of paladin offer divine grace, disease and fear immunity, and casting divine favor from mana. My saves with Greater Heroism are approximately 27/34/24, from memory.

I recommend going strength based, whereas I went dex based, will reroll eventually because this build is so much fun :)

Honestly though, it can be a tough build to play for the early levels. By level 14 though, you are a defensive TWF powerhouse with access to arcane buffs, self healing, lay on hands, UMD, evasion, and totally sick saves.

Along these lines here is my TWF dragon marked elf build. More fighter less caster with much better DPS but much worse saves and no evasion/umd compared to Aspenor's build above.

If you were not addicted to run speed (and the DR boost is really nice at lower levels) you could sub Rogue for Barbarian but you cannot then get GTWF until the next cap.

(Elf Male Neutral Good Fighter 8/ Barbarian 1/ Wizard 5)

Stats:
Str 16 (30 =16 +3 Levels +1 Tome +2 Enh. +6 Item +2 Rage)
Dex 17 (22 =17 +5 Item
Con 12 (22 =12 +2 Favor Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
Int 12 (18 =12 + 6 Item)
Wis 8 (12 =8 +4 Spell)
Cha 8

Level Progression:
1-Barbarian
2 thru 6-Wizard
7 thru 14-Fighter

Skills:
Jump
Balance
Listen

Feats:
1-Toughness
2-(WB) Extend
3-Least Mark of Shadow
6-(WB) Maximize
6-Lesser Mark of Shadow
7-(FB) TWF
8-(FB) Weapon Focus Piercing
9-ITWF
10-(FB) Weapon Spec Piercing
12-(FB) Stunning Blow
12-IC Piercing
14-(FB) GTWF

Enhancements:
Fighter Strength II
Fighter Stunning Blow III
Fighter Trip II
Fighter Toughness III
Fighter Haste Boost II
Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Elf Extra Dragonmark III
Elf Melee Attack II
Elf Melee Damage II
Elf Arcanum III
Wizard Energy of Scholar II
Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost I
Barbarian Sprint Boost I

HP:
112(Levels) +20(Heroic) +10(Draconic) +30(GFL) +16(Tough) +30(Ftr. Tough III) +84(Con)=302

SP:
230(Levels) +50(EOS II) +45(Elf Arc. III) +100(Magi) +56(Int)=481(+150 Dragonmark Displacement)

Spells:
1-Shield, Exp Retreat, Jump, Ray of Enfeeblement
2-Blur, Owl's Wisdom, Resist Energy (Invisibility Dragonmark x7 per rest)
3-Rage, Haste (Displacement Dragonmark x5 per rest)

Saves (Fort/Reflex/Will):
23/17/15

To Hit:
BAB 11
Str 10
Weapon Focus 1
Weapon 5
Haste 1
Greater Hero 4
Racial Elf 2
TWF -2
32

Damage:
Strength 10
Weapon 5
Racial Elf 2
Weapon Spec 2
19/14

Defense is pretty strong with stoneskin scrolls/wand plus constant haste/displacement/rage/20 pt. jump. You will do more damage by far with GTWF, but do not have awesome saves/evasion/umd/self healing. I went more the tactics route as well and with a weighted off-hand weapon you are looking at very good stunning blows to help with damage/defense as well as trip.

A note on run speed, with exp. retreat, 10% innate Barb run speed boost, and the run boost enhancement this guy is literally supersonic.

maddong
09-12-2007, 01:02 PM
If you have a +1 dex tome you can do the elven shadowblade build on the fighter forum. I believe it is what Einar based his build on.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116302

nbhs275
09-12-2007, 01:09 PM
barb 14.. Done

Taerdra
09-12-2007, 01:46 PM
Here's a barb-based version of what EinerMal had laid out. This one is interesting in that it is much more defensive than the traditional barb, but akin to the Jellybean build in terms of damage, etc. Put stat damagers in this toon's hands with the 35% critical rate on dual rapiers.

Barb 11/Fighter 2/Wizard 1
STATS
STR 18 + 3 levels + 1 Ftr enh + 9 Rage + 2 Rage spell +6 Item + 2 Tome = 41 Raged (higher with Raid Loot)
CON 13 + 1 tome + 2 Barb enh + 8 Rage + 2 Rage spell + 6 Item = 32 Raged
DEX 16 + 1 tome + 1 Elf enh + 6 Item = 24
INT 10 + 6 Item = 16

FEATS
1) 2W Fighting
3) Least Dragonmark
3F) Power Attack
6) Lesser Dragonmark
6F) Imp 2W Fighting
7W) Extend Spell
9) Imp Crit Pierce
12) Greater 2W Fighting

KEY Enhancements:
Power Rage 3 (can get away with 2 if need be, but allows +5 item use)
Extend Rage 4
Extra Rage 3
Hardy Rage 2
Crit Rage 1
Power Attack 2
Extra DMark 4
Barb CON 2
Ftr STR 1
Elf DEX 1
Elf Melee Att 1
Elf Melee Dmg 1
3 Free Points (Spring boost, Willpower, Enchant Resist would be my choice)

Rage would be in the 2:30+ range at lvl 14 and Extended Displacement would match well, so you could definitely hit them in tandom. This build gives you 7 rages and 6 uses of Displacement.

Again, dual-wield rapiers. Excellent to-hit potential, 35% Crits, +15 STR damage.

I would rather go pure barb, get Crit Rage 2, and use a different race. But this is kind of a cool alternative to your traditional barb build.

Just popped in my head.

Geonis
09-12-2007, 05:43 PM
The trick to using a TWF is to realize one thing.

Your AC sucks!!!!

Once you realize that, you can move on to ways to mitigate damage, such as Blur, Displacement, and Stoneskin.

The other, most important, damage mitigation is to kill stuff FAST!

Here is one similar to what I play as my main, but with a couple of the mistakes I made fixed.

This build is a strength build, and can hit a 24 Str with a +6 Str item, or 26 with a +2 tome. It uses the khopesh, as not much except for THF can keep up with the damage output ability of dual khopeshes. I know you take a -4 to hit when using dual khopeshes, but the damage output is worth it, and with the UMD you can hit, you can throw up your own GH if there is not a caster around. :D


As far as armor, you want to stick with mith chain shirt or breastplate. This is to keep your evasion working. I know you only get 20pt resists till next cap raise, but believe me you really don't even need anything but acid and fire, and sometimes sonic, as you will evade everything else.

As for the tomes you need just 2, 1 Dex by level 5 for Imp and Grtr TWF, and a Cha tome whenever to bring your Cha up to a 20 before items.

Couple this with a +6 Cha item, swapping out Weapon Focus for Skill Focus:UMD at higher levels, a GH, the Golden Cartouche, and your UMD is at +35, with a Rogue Skill Boost you're looking at a +37 (no fail on a Raise Dead) and Heal on a 3!

Now onto your to hits.

Base attack will be 13 (BAB) + 7 (24 Str) + 4 (GH, self cast from scrolls) + 3 (Divine Favor) + 3 (weapon, could say 5, but lets be realistic as you will want some good damage modifiers) - 4 (TWF without light offhand) = +26

Doesn't sound great does it? But let's think about this, your attack is actually +26/+26/+26/+31/+31/+36/+36.
It is also easy to get a few more points out of this, add Haste +1 to all attacks, upping the plus of the weapon jumps all atacks by 2, a Bard with maxed out song gives you another +4 to all attacks (and 6 or 7 to base damage, I highly recommend bringing a Bard, it ups the effectiveness of this build by an order of magnitude). So the max theoretical to hit of this build (without any +2 tomes or raid loot) is +33/+33/+33/+38/+38/+43/+43.

On to damage:
Base damage doesn't look like much, main hand is 1d8+13, with off hand being 1d8+9.
But, we specifically didn't use +5 weapons in our main attack numbers, so we could get some extra damage here.
Let's define the rest of those khopeshes shall we?

+3 leaves essentially 5 points of bonus undefined (for level 14 non-rr weapons). My preferred combination is holy burst of maiming. (Not that I have these yet.) That is an additional extra damage of ~13 on each hit, with an extra ~32.5 on a crit.

So, damage looks like this using only self buffs

Main hand/reg hit - 1d8 + 13 + 2d6 = min-16 avg-24.5 max-33
w/Bard______________________________22_____30.5____3 9

Offhand/reg hit - 1d8 + 9 + 2d6 = min-12 avg-20.5 max-29
w/Bard___________________________18______26.5______3 5

Mainhand/Crit - (1d8 + 13)*3 + 2d6 + 3d6 + 2d6 = min-49 avg-77 max-105
w/Bard________________________________________67____ _95______123

Offhand/Crit - (1d8 +9)*3 + 2d6 + 3d6 +2d6= min-37 avg-65 max-93
w/Bard_____________________________________55_____83 _____111

Now, are you going to have your perfect weapons, no probably not, so drop the damage a small bit and you can see that you will still be doing great chunks of damage to enemies.

Of course with a Bloodstone (Got one of those too. :) ) and the changes to Seeker coming soon, your crit damage all jumps up another 18 points.




Now onto AC:

Well, there isn't a whole lot to say here. Your AC is going to suck. Your damage mitigation will be Displacement and Stoneskin, with some Blur thrown in the mix. You have no chance of failure UMDing any of these. Make sure to keep Stoneskin up all the time if possible and use the Displacement as needed for the tough fights, and use your LOH or Heal scrolls for when it goes bad.

If possible, this character should be PermaHasted, as it just amps up the damage output. Use your attack speed boost to augment the Haste (Yes, it does stack) and you can be a true terror damage output-wise. I have had many Barbs ask me what the hell I'm doing to put out that much damage.

Saves:

Assuming a +6 Cha and Con item and +4 Dex and Wis items saves look pretty good:

Fort - +29
Ref - +27 and evasion
Will - +21

You can always add a Resist item if these aren't good enough for you, but I find that overkill.





Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.60
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 14 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Fighter \ 10 Paladin \ 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 202
Spell Points: 144
BAB: 13\13\18\23
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 18
Will: 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 14 18
Dexterity 16 18
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 12 12
Charisma 16 19

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14)
Balance 5 12
Bluff 3 4
Concentration 1 1
Diplomacy 3 4
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 10
Heal 1 1
Hide 3 4
Intimidate 3 4
Jump 2 4
Listen 1 3
Move Silently 3 4
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 0 2
Spot 1 3
Swim 2 4
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 5 21

Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh

Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+6)

Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 13 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+6)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma III
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV

Blind_Skwerl
09-12-2007, 06:13 PM
Here's my build:

Tourbillon Patek
Neutral Good Dwarf (32 points)
12 Ranger / 2 Fighter

Str 18 (+3 level ups)
Dex 15
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 6

Feats Taken:
Weapon Focus: Slashing
Toughness
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Critical: Slashing
Power Critical
Favored Enemies: Undead, Giant, Evil Outsiders

End game, this guy does huge damage numbers, and is nearly an automatic confirm for crits. Hp's will be around 350ish. With 12 levels of ranger, you get twf feats automatically, so dex is not a problem. As for AC, expect low 30's unless you turtle up with a +5 mith tower, def fighting stance, etc... then you could reach into the 40's. This build and the discussion of it is posted in the ranger forum under: Strength based TWF dwarf.

EinarMal
09-12-2007, 06:18 PM
If you have a +1 dex tome you can do the elven shadowblade build on the fighter forum. I believe it is what Einar based his build on.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116302

Indeed that got me started for sure. I've been doing similiar TWF builds but with Bards instead of wizard/sorc/dragon marks. That is actually another very good option. Bards make excellent TWF, provide great benefits to the group, and are good defensive characters with buffs. The best defense in the game outside of 55+ AC is displacement, stoneskin, and perma haste for out moving opponents.

paulmoore
09-12-2007, 10:27 PM
Wow, lots of good ideas here, seems like I have a lot of sifting to do. For some reason I am kinda partial to wanting to use the rogue levels for evasion. Still not sure on whether I should go STR or DEX based for attack though. If I go with a drow toon, I can cap my DEX to 20 at creation, which I believe is enough for GTWF if I'm not mistaken. I would get my CON up to 10so as not to have any penalties to starting HP and then sink the rest into STR. With the rogue levesl and maxing out the UMD skill I might have enough to self heal with wands so I wouldn't necessarily need the paladin levels unless I wanted dvine grace for the saves. ARRGH with so many choices, I'm not sure what to do!!!! Thanks again for all the input, it is most appreciated.

nbhs275
09-12-2007, 11:04 PM
go barb 14, 18 str, 16 dex, 14 con

Max Str

go the entire TWF line and IC:Piercing

using heavy picks you can get x4 crits on 17-20

Thats easily 200+ damage crits in your main hand

1d8
+5 weapon
+18 str
+8 PA
+6 Seeker
+5 Damage Boost
+6 bard
_________
196-224, before any other bursting effect(anarchic burst is +2d6 on a hit, +7d6 total on a crit)

No way a fighter or ranger keeps up with that. Also is the king with smiting, banishing and WP.

EinarMal
09-13-2007, 06:44 AM
go barb 14, 18 str, 16 dex, 14 con

Max Str

go the entire TWF line and IC:Piercing

using heavy picks you can get x4 crits on 17-20

Thats easily 200+ damage crits in your main hand

1d8
+5 weapon
+18 str
+8 PA
+6 Seeker
+5 Damage Boost
+6 bard
_________
196-224, before any other bursting effect(anarchic burst is +2d6 on a hit, +7d6 total on a crit)

No way a fighter or ranger keeps up with that. Also is the king with smiting, banishing and WP.

Builds like that are so boring to play though. That is what makes arcane TWF or Bards more fun in my opinion. Once you have played a class that can buff, self heal, and do many other things that you are ignoring it is hard to go back to pure melee. Sure the Barb has higher DPS, but I don't know I find it kind of boring to me, to each his own I guess. Not saying it isn't a good way to go, just not for everyone. I like being more versatile and being able to do lots of things to help out the group. It is more fun to me to be able to help out a fellow tank by throwing blur/displacement on them or drop an AOE extended haste myself versus bugging the wizard/sorc for it.

Take a TWF Bard for instance, can the Barb build add ~6 damage and to-hit to everyone in the group, or haste, or fascinate for added CC? I find it more fun to have lots of things that you can do rather than just *only* really being able to kill mobs and soak up heals. Plus I find that people in a lot of groups don't want to support a build like that, as the game goes on I think people expect more self reliance. A lot of casters don't want to buff or cast haste so it is nice to just be able to do it yourself.

I guess it just depends on what you consider *better*. If you are strictly talking DPS then the Barb definitely wins hands down. There are lots of other things though, at least to me, that matter besides DPS.

Taerdra
09-13-2007, 07:27 AM
The trick to using a TWF is to realize one thing.

Your AC sucks!!!!



This is totally untrue. With the right build you can achieve 50 AC TWF with purely your own buffs. Combine that with the Stoneskin/Displacement combo in one shape or form (UMD, DMs, etc.), you will ake very few hits. Quite frankly, you don't give up as much offense as everyone makes it out to be.

AC is like anything else. You need to build for it from the beginning. My ranger's AC:
10 Base
12 DEX
7 Armored Bracers
5 Barkskin
2 Pally Aura
4 Protection
1 Dodge
1 Haste Clickie
5 CE
4 Shield Clickie
===============
51 AC

That's w/o other casters, to-hit is fine and I have 20 STR to punch thru DR when needed. Dwarf 2WF are regularly in the mid 40s on STR builds.

Taerdra
09-13-2007, 07:35 AM
Wow, lots of good ideas here, seems like I have a lot of sifting to do. For some reason I am kinda partial to wanting to use the rogue levels for evasion. Still not sure on whether I should go STR or DEX based for attack though. If I go with a drow toon, I can cap my DEX to 20 at creation, which I believe is enough for GTWF if I'm not mistaken. I would get my CON up to 10so as not to have any penalties to starting HP and then sink the rest into STR. With the rogue levesl and maxing out the UMD skill I might have enough to self heal with wands so I wouldn't necessarily need the paladin levels unless I wanted dvine grace for the saves. ARRGH with so many choices, I'm not sure what to do!!!! Thanks again for all the input, it is most appreciated.

Just don't forget that Rangers get evasion at lvl 9 as well. You don't have to go Rogue to get evasion. A 1 Rogue / 12 Ranger / x full BAB class is a very strong build. You miss out on SA damage and Improved Evasion at Rogue 10, but your to-hit will be better, hps will be better, and you can still have all the trap/UMD you want.

Sounds to me like you want either 1 Rogue / 11 Ranger / 2 Paladin or 10 Rogue / 2 Fighter / 2 Paladin. If you really want to get unusual, you could use one of Einer's Bard builds and redirect skills to trapsmithing, but I think once you throw the trapsmithing thing in the mix a Bard base will be tougher to pull off.

There is no need to spend 6 points to cap your DEX at creation. 18 DEX still gets to 34 DEX full maxed out which is plenty. Spend the 6 pts elsewhere you will be glad you did.

nbhs275
09-13-2007, 08:08 AM
Builds like that are so boring to play though. That is what makes arcane TWF or Bards more fun in my opinion. Once you have played a class that can buff, self heal, and do many other things that you are ignoring it is hard to go back to pure melee. Sure the Barb has higher DPS, but I don't know I find it kind of boring to me, to each his own I guess. Not saying it isn't a good way to go, just not for everyone. I like being more versatile and being able to do lots of things to help out the group. It is more fun to me to be able to help out a fellow tank by throwing blur/displacement on them or drop an AOE extended haste myself versus bugging the wizard/sorc for it.

Take a TWF Bard for instance, can the Barb build add ~6 damage and to-hit to everyone in the group, or haste, or fascinate for added CC? I find it more fun to have lots of things that you can do rather than just *only* really being able to kill mobs and soak up heals. Plus I find that people in a lot of groups don't want to support a build like that, as the game goes on I think people expect more self reliance. A lot of casters don't want to buff or cast haste so it is nice to just be able to do it yourself.

I guess it just depends on what you consider *better*. If you are strictly talking DPS then the Barb definitely wins hands down. There are lots of other things though, at least to me, that matter besides DPS.

Already have a great battlebard, would rather not make the same build. Also, TWF is a long chain, and eats up too many resorces on a bard in my opinion. OH, and about your +6 damage//to-hit deally, guess what? Everyone else in the party gets it too. So anyone around you that is made for high DPS is still going to outdo you.

And the final factor that still makes me weary of your build is the fact you cant cast GH, your UMD is low, and your spellpoints suffer anytime you heal from them. As for the barbarian self heal, what moron doesnt carry potions?

EinarMal
09-13-2007, 08:19 AM
Already have a great battlebard, would rather not make the same build. Also, TWF is a long chain, and eats up too many resorces on a bard in my opinion. OH, and about your +6 damage//to-hit deally, guess what? Everyone else in the party gets it too. So anyone around you that is made for high DPS is still going to outdo you.

And the final factor that still makes me weary of your build is the fact you cant cast GH, your UMD is low, and your spellpoints suffer anytime you heal from them. As for the barbarian self heal, what moron doesnt carry potions?

Meh wasn't suggesting you build one just stating that many people find pure melee builds boring after playing something like a battle bard, battle mage, battle cleric.

As far as a particular build there are many ways to go and MANY people differ with you on whether or not TWF makes sense for a Bard so I will just leave it at that. Compare the UMD of a battle Bard to a pure Barb hmm well they don't have any. GH, well you can scroll cast it with a caster check if you go 12/2 for GTWF, again the Barb can't do that. Pots, well hope you have a lot of plat (the OP) because you are going to have to down them by the bucket full to keep yourself healed with 300-400+ hit points.

nbhs275
09-13-2007, 09:16 AM
Meh wasn't suggesting you build one just stating that many people find pure melee builds boring after playing something like a battle bard, battle mage, battle cleric.

As far as a particular build there are many ways to go and MANY people differ with you on whether or not TWF makes sense for a Bard so I will just leave it at that. Compare the UMD of a battle Bard to a pure Barb hmm well they don't have any. GH, well you can scroll cast it with a caster check if you go 12/2 for GTWF, again the Barb can't do that. Pots, well hope you have a lot of plat (the OP) because you are going to have to down them by the bucket full to keep yourself healed with 300-400+ hit points.

GH scrolls are just as expensive as a stack of healing pots. UMD on a battlebard? my battle bard has a 39, well over 300 hp, and does great DPS with healing, CC and buffing.

Also, what people find enjoyable is not something for you to deside i dont think. Considering i have a great battle cleric, a great battle bard, and an offensive paladin. My TWF barbarian is fun, just a change up and different play style then them. In my estimation not everyone likes to play the same character in 10 different forms.

EinarMal
09-13-2007, 09:22 AM
[quote=nbhs275;1344055]GH scrolls are just as expensive as a stack of healing pots. UMD on a battlebard? my battle bard has a 39, well over 300 hp, and does great DPS with healing, CC and buffing.

quote]

Your awsome man, it's incredible how you've managed to build the absolute best possible battle Bard build ever congrats!! Next up solving world hunger and nuclear proliferation. :rolleyes:

EinarMal
09-13-2007, 09:29 AM
Also, what people find enjoyable is not something for you to deside i dont think. Considering i have a great battle cleric, a great battle bard, and an offensive paladin. My TWF barbarian is fun, just a change up and different play style then them. In my estimation not everyone likes to play the same character in 10 different forms.

(OP's original goal)
Right now she is a pure ranger at lvl 8. In any given quest, I get hit alot, and get hit hard. I don't want to be a mana sponge cause of the low AC, but on the same token I want to get in there and help out and not sit idly by while the party I'm in gets hammered. I would like to build a better, less gimped version if you will. Something that has decent to hit and damage, but has good saves and AC to go with it. Here are a few ideas that I have been kicking around....

And your suggestion is Barbarian, the kings of mana spongeness. He is not trying to build a max DPS TWF he clearly states it. A dwarf ranger/paladin is a much better suggestion, or even an elf with high dex and AC. An Arcane/Bard also with buffs has more defense and options to play with than a Barbarian. If your goal is good defense in addition to offense a Barbarian would not be my first choice.

nbhs275
09-13-2007, 10:16 AM
barbarian AC

10 base
13 armor
5 dex
5 protection
3 dodge
4 shield clickie
4 madstone
1 haste
6 uncanny dodge
______
51 AC

add in a full pally and your at 55 2handed, heavy shield is 58, and after the update human versitility is another +5 on boost. 63. Yeah....reallllly squishy

EinarMal
09-13-2007, 10:23 AM
barbarian AC

10 base
13 armor
5 dex
5 protection
3 dodge
4 shield clickie
4 madstone
1 haste
6 uncanny dodge
______
51 AC

add in a full pally and your at 55 2handed, heavy shield is 58, and after the update human versitility is another +5 on boost. 63. Yeah....reallllly squishy

Are you serious, you are adding in uncanny dodge, a bunch of high end items etc... That is not what most TWF/THF Barbs are running around with. I also did not say they were squishy I said mana sponge. Protection +5, 3 Dodge bonus give me a break 99.9% of people cannot hit that. Shield clickies also are a total pain for 30 seconds of use. Where are you going to put all these shield clickies to keep that up?

nbhs275
09-13-2007, 11:46 AM
Are you serious, you are adding in uncanny dodge, a bunch of high end items etc... That is not what most TWF/THF Barbs are running around with. I also did not say they were squishy I said mana sponge. Protection +5, 3 Dodge bonus give me a break 99.9% of people cannot hit that. Shield clickies also are a total pain for 30 seconds of use. Where are you going to put all these shield clickies to keep that up?

Lets see that bard of yours get higher. and counting undcanny dodge? why not, its a boost. If ya got it, use it. Shield clickies are 60 seconds. Which is good enough, considering the only time a high AC counts for anything in the end game is against SOME end bosses. And the whole mana sponge issue.. Clerics heal, thats all alot of them can do it seems. Might as well give them something to do.

+3 dodge is a chattering ring. Its titan loot. Which anyone can get. Go and run the raid. It'll drop for you eventually.

+5 protection is fairly common these days, and even a +4 is only going to set you back 1 point.

In the end, the only way you can have a high end AC is to have HIGH END loot.

maddong
09-13-2007, 12:03 PM
I would consider any dual wielder without stunning blow nerfed. When the mindflayers spawn at the end of potp it is awesome to pull out that offhand vertigo +10, stun and kill the first mindflayer. Move to the second mindflayer and stun and kill it. Dual DC 30+ fort saves rock for precision strikes. It also essentially adds some defense to your build.

EinarMal
09-13-2007, 12:08 PM
Lets see that bard of yours get higher. and counting undcanny dodge? why not, its a boost. If ya got it, use it. Shield clickies are 60 seconds. Which is good enough, considering the only time a high AC counts for anything in the end game is against SOME end bosses. And the whole mana sponge issue.. Clerics heal, thats all alot of them can do it seems. Might as well give them something to do.

+3 dodge is a chattering ring. Its titan loot. Which anyone can get. Go and run the raid. It'll drop for you eventually.

+5 protection is fairly common these days, and even a +4 is only going to set you back 1 point.

In the end, the only way you can have a high end AC is to have HIGH END loot.

Seriously who cares what the max possible AC of a Barb is for short bursts? Most Barbs do not have 50+ AC while fighting 95% of the time. It probably isn't even 40. I am sure clerics really appreciate healing your Barb and your attitude. The OP specifically asked for a build that was not a mana sponge so your whole point is what exactly?

Barbs make very strong DPS oriented TWF's I am glad you enjoy yours. There are other TWF builds that also work well, as with most things in life there is not ONE AND ONLY ONE WAY TO DO SOMETHING. That is the best thing about this game, being able to build fun, effective, and different builds. If it wasn't for that there are many people who would no longer be playing this game. The day that the only way to build an effective TWF is by building a Barb is the day before I would not be playing this game any longer.

paulmoore
09-14-2007, 06:39 AM
Well, I was hoping that this wasn't going to turn into a flame war between people due to their different builds. That was not my intention. I was just hoping to get some insight about how I can build a new TWF toon that has a little bit more defense than my previous version(shich I still play by the way) With that being said, I was in the character generator just messing around. looking at all the feats and things and I kinda have a general outline. Obviously, this toon is going to be TWF, which means that it is going to be heavily melee orientated. Now, I love to throw out DPS numbers, but it is not the most important thing. Staying alive is. Now, by nature of the build, my AC will be lower than other toons, I understand this. One person stated about damage mitigation. Well, I think that having a high to hit and decent damage will achive that to a point. This is what I was thinking about. Going fighter until lvl 12. Only reason is that it seemed to me that no other class could get greater weapon spec/greater weapon focus because they are all fighter spec'd feats. These I think will help out with the attack and damage numbers. That leaves me with 2 lvls left. What would be a good support class to go with that build? Or am I still doing this all wrong??

Also...
Taerdra said-There is no need to spend 6 points to cap your DEX at creation. 18 DEX still gets to 34 DEX full maxed out which is plenty. Spend the 6 pts elsewhere you will be glad you did.

How did you come up with this number?? If I start out at 20 DEX and get 3 from lvl 4,8 and 12, 2 from elven DEX II and a +6 DEX item that is only 31. A time would take that up to 32. No way could I get there if I started at 18, or am I mising something?

nbhs275
09-14-2007, 11:14 AM
if your building for TWF, dropping so much into dex isnt a great idea because the advantage of the two weapons is usually nullified by the lower strengeth alot of these builds have.

And if your not into the barbarian idea, a fun little setup for a more defensive TWF would be ranger 11/paladin 3

Stats would look something like this(on a human)

str 30(18 base+3 level+6 item+2 tome+1 enhancment) 16
dex 26(14 base+6 item+2 tome+4 enhancment) 6
Con 16(12 base+3 item+1 tome)
Int 8
Wis 16(10 base+6 item)
Cha 20(12 base+6 item+1 tome+1 enhancment)

Feats would be:

1: Toughness
1: Khopesh
3: Power attack
6: Skill focus: UMD
9: Improved crit: Slashing
12: Improved crit: Ranged

Though if you dropped the power attack and khopesh, you could get Dodge and TW defense:

AC would be:(if you dont take khopesh and PA)

10 base
10 armor
8 dex
5 protection
6 dodge
1 shield
1 haste
4 barkskin
2 pally
_________
47, 51 with shield clickie, 53 defensive fighting, 56 with heavy shield, 59 with full pally and ranger, 66 with HV ac boost and recitation, 69 against favored enemies.

Pretty defensive i would say. And still with enough strength to do useful damage. If you take khopesh, you can try and use two choasblades. With two of those your never going to be needing healing other then in the most dire of fights.

Jaysensen
09-14-2007, 12:31 PM
the only time a high AC counts for anything in the end game is against SOME end bosses.

AC is great all the time, if you have enough...

Jaysensen
09-14-2007, 12:37 PM
Well, I was hoping that this wasn't going to turn into a flame war between people due to their different builds. That was not my intention. I was just hoping to get some insight about how I can build a new TWF toon that has a little bit more defense than my previous version(shich I still play by the way) With that being said, I was in the character generator just messing around. looking at all the feats and things and I kinda have a general outline. Obviously, this toon is going to be TWF, which means that it is going to be heavily melee orientated. Now, I love to throw out DPS numbers, but it is not the most important thing. Staying alive is. Now, by nature of the build, my AC will be lower than other toons, I understand this. One person stated about damage mitigation. Well, I think that having a high to hit and decent damage will achive that to a point. This is what I was thinking about. Going fighter until lvl 12. Only reason is that it seemed to me that no other class could get greater weapon spec/greater weapon focus because they are all fighter spec'd feats. These I think will help out with the attack and damage numbers. That leaves me with 2 lvls left. What would be a good support class to go with that build? Or am I still doing this all wrong??

Also...
Taerdra said-There is no need to spend 6 points to cap your DEX at creation. 18 DEX still gets to 34 DEX full maxed out which is plenty. Spend the 6 pts elsewhere you will be glad you did.

How did you come up with this number?? If I start out at 20 DEX and get 3 from lvl 4,8 and 12, 2 from elven DEX II and a +6 DEX item that is only 31. A time would take that up to 32. No way could I get there if I started at 18, or am I mising something?

You also get Ranger Dex 3. Start with 18.

If you can get to 13 INT with tomes, spend a feat on Combat Expertise. It is great for any AC build. Get Fearsome armor.

Greater Weapon Spec is like level 7/8 Fighter required (something like that), so unless you reroll, you arent gonna get it.

Taerdra
09-14-2007, 12:39 PM
1st time I've ever been ninja'd... yay! Or did I ninja you? :)



Taerdra said-There is no need to spend 6 points to cap your DEX at creation. 18 DEX still gets to 34 DEX full maxed out which is plenty. Spend the 6 pts elsewhere you will be glad you did.

How did you come up with this number?? If I start out at 20 DEX and get 3 from lvl 4,8 and 12, 2 from elven DEX II and a +6 DEX item that is only 31. A time would take that up to 32. No way could I get there if I started at 18, or am I mising something?

If you take Ranger or Rogue you get 3 DEX enhancements there as well. Class and race enhancements of same type do stack.

EinarMal
09-14-2007, 12:40 PM
You also get Ranger Dex 3. Start with 18.

If you can get to 13 INT with tomes, spend a feat on Combat Expertise. It is great for any AC build. Get Fearsome armor.

Greater Weapon Spec is like level 7/8 Fighter required (something like that), so unless you reroll, you arent gonna get it.

It is actually level 12 fighter required for greater weapon spec...

Provides a +2 bonus to damage rolls
This bonus stacks with the Weapon Specialization feat.
Prerequisite: Fighter Level 12, Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons, Weapon Specialization:

Taerdra
09-14-2007, 12:43 PM
AC is great all the time, if you have enough...

Agreed. I really am tired of this fallacy that, if you are not 50+ or 55+, AC is totally useless.

paulmoore
09-15-2007, 01:32 PM
Ok so I am leaning more towards the drow ranger 11 paladin 3 build. I'm thinking about the starting stats seeing as how I haven't unlocked the 1750 favor. Here is what I was thinking about. Going a high DEX build to not use armor, just robes, and taking weapon finesse. This way, IF I have to pull out a bow, I won't suck at using it. So here would be the starting stats....

STR 15+ +6 item, + +1 STR tome=22
DEX 18+ 3 from levels, +3 ranger enhancements +6 item, +2 elven DEX=32
CON 10+ whatever item I can get
INT 13 for Combat Expertise
WIS 10+ whatever item I can get
CHA 11+1 from paladin CHA, +6 item=18

This way I get all my TWF feats for free, I will dual wield either rapiers or shortswords, and get the drow melee attack and damage enhancements, be able to use ranger evasion, get a somewhat decent boost to saves from the pally levels, and have somewhat decent hit ponts. Would this work out ok, or should I do some more tweaking??

Jaysensen
09-15-2007, 04:22 PM
Agreed. I really am tired of this fallacy that, if you are not 50+ or 55+, AC is totally useless.

Yeah, its a pet peeve of mine...

OP, 11R/3P is a GREAT level split. Id look into how you can squeeze out another 2 points into CHA. Depends how any/what types of tomes/items you can acquire. You probably want around 20-22 final CHA. Personally, Id drop STR, but at this point its just fine tuning, and youre pretty much fine where your stats are at.

nbhs275
09-15-2007, 10:14 PM
AC is great all the time, if you have enough...

Well, its great up until gianthold where they buffed their tohit so high that numbers lower then 40 are completly useless, and numbers above 50 is where it because worth sacrificing for. My pally has a 51 AC when he uses his shield, and that is enough that i can solo any non gianthold content without burning up potions and scrolls. But in things like madstone elite, its not worth slowing down the DPS for a 5 ac bonus the shield grants. Because in madstone, things dieing quickly is more helpful then a fighter slowly wittling down mobs.

nbhs275
09-15-2007, 10:18 PM
Yeah, its a pet peeve of mine...

OP, 11R/3P is a GREAT level split. Id look into how you can squeeze out another 2 points into CHA. Depends how any/what types of tomes/items you can acquire. You probably want around 20-22 final CHA. Personally, Id drop STR, but at this point its just fine tuning, and youre pretty much fine where your stats are at.

sorry for two posts but i missed this. Why would you boost dex and lower strength? the ranger class already gives you the feats without needing a high dex, so its not worthwhile to neglect strength. Giving up extra damage on TWF is what makes alot of rangers sup-par, and why many builds are starting to be dwarf axe fighters. For the ability to neglect dex, and build with high stength and con. Dex should only be considered for saves, AC, and ranged combat.

paulmoore
09-16-2007, 12:25 PM
nbhs275 said-Dex should only be considered for saves, AC, and ranged combat.

It seems to me to be a good reason as to have a high DEX to start off with. In order to keep all the ranger skills working, especially evasion, I have to be in light armor. Now out of all the light armor that I know of, the Kundarak Delving Suit has the highest total AC bonus at 16, which is the same as +5 Mithral Full plate(which I can't use). With a final DEX of 32 and the subsequent +11 bonus that it gives, I would only need a set of armor bracers +5 to meet the same exact total AC bonus of the best light armor in the game at this time. This way, I can swap out robes of any elemental resist, deathward, fearsome, etc to achive whatever I need to. The reflex save will be insane, coupled with evasion I will pretty much be taking no damage from AOE spells. And I can also see it working very well with ranged combat seeing as how any bow to hit is based off of DEX I have the ability to stand back and range mobs if I find that I am getting hit too often. What I do plan on diong though is taking the build one step further. I will also make a STR based TWF build with the same class split and pit them against each other and see how they do. I feel that this will be a good learning experience for me, and help me to get a better understanding of how all the feats and skill work and how to maximize them for each character. I would like to thank everyone who posted a responce to this thread, your insight has been most helpful. Thanks again!!!

nbhs275
09-16-2007, 12:32 PM
nbhs275 said-Dex should only be considered for saves, AC, and ranged combat.

It seems to me to be a good reason as to have a high DEX to start off with. In order to keep all the ranger skills working, especially evasion, I have to be in light armor. Now out of all the light armor that I know of, the Kundarak Delving Suit has the highest total AC bonus at 16, which is the same as +5 Mithral Full plate(which I can't use). With a final DEX of 32 and the subsequent +11 bonus that it gives, I would only need a set of armor bracers +5 to meet the same exact total AC bonus of the best light armor in the game at this time. This way, I can swap out robes of any elemental resist, deathward, fearsome, etc to achive whatever I need to. The reflex save will be insane, coupled with evasion I will pretty much be taking no damage from AOE spells. And I can also see it working very well with ranged combat seeing as how any bow to hit is based off of DEX I have the ability to stand back and range mobs if I find that I am getting hit too often. What I do plan on diong though is taking the build one step further. I will also make a STR based TWF build with the same class split and pit them against each other and see how they do. I feel that this will be a good learning experience for me, and help me to get a better understanding of how all the feats and skill work and how to maximize them for each character. I would like to thank everyone who posted a responce to this thread, your insight has been most helpful. Thanks again!!!

AC from delving suit is 10 armor, 6 dex. Add in either dwarf armor mastery or a dagger tooth belt and thats 8 dex. So 18 armor, +2 from choasguard. and i saved about 50% of the effort that it would take to get to 34 dex. Also saving a feat because i can run all of my melee off of strength, for more damage and weapon choice. And for ranged combat, the 3-4 bonus to hit isnt worth the devotion, considering that the only time ranged combat does good damage is during manyshot every two minutes. If your not hitting with a 29(14 BaB+8 dex+4 GH+3 weapon) then your doing something wrong.