PDA

View Full Version : Protection from Vorpals??



Partymaker
09-11-2007, 07:11 PM
As we got a mini spoiler this week about what's coming up in the MOD5 preraid, (u can be vorpaled), I was like, what the... we MUST have a way to protect ourselves against this! And yes, we can protects our nice lil heads from being vorpaled :D

So to find out, I did a few tests with a friend in a tavern and to my great surprise, it wasn't at all what I was expecting...

Deathblock items protects against vorpals as well as Deathward (yes, both!), but NOT heavy fortification... and I thought it was a huge nonsense so I want ppl comments on this.

From my point of view, it should be the opposite, Heavy Fort. should protects us against vorpal but not deathblock or deathward.

About deathblock/deathward, they are suppose to protect against death spells as everyone knows (Slay Living, Destruction, PK & FoD so far). PK is suppose to cast something based on your greatest fear and make it looks so real that if you can't disbelieve the illusion, it "kills" you. Nothing really physical in this, even if there's a Fort save as everything is between your ears :D You disbelieve or you die from your fear...

For FoD, there's no real description in the compendium but I assume it's feeding on your Life Force, which isn't really a physical effect either I would say.

However, "Vorpal" isn't a spell, but rather a magical effect/enhancement on a slashing weapon. Once that magical effect is activated tho (with a 20), you need to confirm a critical THEN you got the effect, which is as physical as it can be! :p You lose your head, plain and simple. :eek: So if you wear heavy fortification, which is suppose to protects you from "head to feet" and void any possibilities to confirm any criticals, I can hardly find any logical reason to say it shouldn't protect you against vorpals.

I'm also wondering how this works in PnP as I haven't been able to verify this so far...

If we were back in MOD 3, I would say that we might have needed it that way as heavy fortification was rare, not to say priceless, and that many ppl didn't had it yet.

Now in MOD4, 50-75% of ppl wear heavy fort. on an item, it's kinda a "logical" requirement in Gianthold now.

And next in MOD5... NO ONE should be ever running anywhere without heavy fort., its really easy to purchase one at the AH + there's a LOT of new nice named items having heavy fort. on them. There should be no more excuses for not having one in MOD5...

So my questions would be..

1. How this works in PnP? I know, this is DDO, not AD&D, I still want to know how it works in PnP, if we can protects ourselves against vorpals and if so, how. I understand many times we need to change some stuff, but I hardly see why we would need to change that from PnP.

2. Is my logic right about the spells/effects etc.. or am I missing/forgetting any infos about all this? :rolleyes: (I believe ONLY heavy fort. should protects us against this, nothing else). If you don't think only heavy fort. should works for vorpals, bring arguments please, I would like to hear them ;)

Tx for your time all :cool:

Tenkari_Rozahas
09-11-2007, 07:17 PM
theres a difference between getting a crit and confirming one. you can confirm a crit, but it wont do anything damage wise against the people immune to it, but it wouldnt stop the effect, as its really non0-damaging (no die rolled) It's not like your wearing armor that puts a 3 inch iron collar around yoru neck to protect from swords.


from the SRD:


Vorpal: This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.)

It doesnt really say creatures immune to crits dont loose their heads, just says they dont die.

Elthbert
09-11-2007, 07:22 PM
Heavy Fortification does not protect you from Vorpals, because the Vorpal effect is not an effect from a crit, it is an effect which only occurs when a 20 is rolled and a crtical hit is confirmed. This is why( In PnP) it works on undead, even though it does not actually destroy them, this is no differant than the effect of a flaming burst weapon going off on a fortified person or a creature immune to crits. Now DDO's interpretation of vorpal ( and certianly how it has been implimented) is that it is a death effect, therefore, it is stopped by spells which prevent death effects, it is a fairly nice ruling.

Partymaker
09-11-2007, 07:31 PM
theres a difference between getting a crit and confirming one. you can confirm a crit, but it wont do anything damage wise against the people immune to it, but it wouldnt stop the effect, as its really non0-damaging (no die rolled) It's not like your wearing armor that puts a 3 inch iron collar around yoru neck to protect from swords.


Good point :cool: And this is something I discussed with my rl friend when we tested it... so basically, heavy fortification is really only damage-wise and isn't protecting against ANYTHING that needs a confirmed critical. :eek:

And Deathward/Deathblock doesn't really protects only against Death Spells like in their description, but rather protects you against any Instant Death effect, be it a spell or a weapon.

In that optic then, heavy fortification wouldn't work to protect a WF against Smiting, but Deathblock/Deathward would? Something else to test it seems :p

Ghoste
09-11-2007, 08:52 PM
There was a thread about this a month or so ago where someone pointed out Wizards just announced a decision that heavy fortification should in fact block the vorpal effect.

I dont recall if it said anything about deathblock/ward, but that doesnt make sense to me that those could block it since those block death effects, not decapitation. And if you read the description of the vorpal effect, as already posted in this thread, vorpal is not a death effect, but decapitation. And it emphasizes that although decapitation can lead to death, it does not do so in all cases.

ChaosTheEternal
09-11-2007, 09:32 PM
There was a thread about this a month or so ago where someone pointed out Wizards just announced a decision that heavy fortification should in fact block the vorpal effect.And then they announced they were wrong and said it doesn't (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070725a).

Here's the thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=112648) (it actually started two months ago). Post 217 (by me) linked to them reanswering the question.

And I had asked Wizards through their question channel and their statement was, no, Deathward does not protect against Vorpal.


Subject
Death Ward vs. Vorpal weapons

Discussion Thread
Response (Sam S.)
04/12/2007 03:17 PM
Hi there XXXXXX,

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support.

A Coup de Grace, massive damage, and the Vorpal ability are not death effects, just like disintegrate is not a death effect. Death Ward does not protect you from any of those means of death.

Take Care and Good Gaming! :)

Ghoste
09-12-2007, 12:26 AM
And then they announced they were wrong and said it doesn't (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070725a).

Here's the thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=112648) (it actually started two months ago). Post 217 (by me) linked to them reanswering the question.

And I had asked Wizards through their question channel and their statement was, no, Deathward does not protect against Vorpal.
Thank you for that. It's really important to have the rules really clarified like that so everyone is on the same pagee.

Elthbert
09-12-2007, 12:29 AM
And then they announced they were wrong and said it doesn't (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070725a).

Here's the thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=112648) (it actually started two months ago). Post 217 (by me) linked to them reanswering the question.

And I had asked Wizards through their question channel and their statement was, no, Deathward does not protect against Vorpal.


WEll As I said above it is a very generous ruling. Have you ever seen anyone in DDO get there head choped off? NO? Well in DDO they have treated it as a instant death effect with no save to which certian creatures are immune. this is differant from PnP becasue in D&D nothing is immune from the decapitationbut many things do not die from it. DDO has simply made it a death effect and Deathward stops it accordingly.

Wulf_Ratbane
09-12-2007, 08:30 AM
DDO has simply made it a death effect and Deathward stops it accordingly.

There's no excuse for incorrect implementation of the rules.

NOTHING stops the vorpal effect. That's the official ruling.

If you roll a 20 and "confirm,", then you cut off the head if it has one and the creature dies if it can't live without its head.

That's it. End of story.

Full disclosure: I don't own a vorpal. I wouldn't use it much if I had it. But it still galls me to see the "Deathward" symbol flash over the heads of monsters that should not be immune to vorpal.

The Devs have plenty of access to creatures that are legitimately immune to vorpal-- undead and constructs, for example. The Gianthold would run just as well with a few more giant skeletons or giant zombies or giant flesh golems or whatever.

And where we, the players, are concerned, when monsters start using vorpal weapons? Well, we should take our lumps. Fair is fair.

In the grand scheme of things, if the Devs want to "heighten the difficulty" of a quest, I would much rather that they give the mobs vorpal blades to use against us, than to break the rules to make mobs immune to our vorpals.

And, of course, they can always allow the players to use the "BLOCK" action to stop "special" attacks from going off. The game can use more tactical twitch play.

tihocan
09-12-2007, 08:34 AM
I vote for no deathward protection against vorpal! I want to get decapitated!

Eladrin
09-12-2007, 09:16 AM
In general, "Monster got lucky, you die with no recourse" isn't very good gameplay.

Insane AC? Crazy Saves? Every protective spell in the game? Won't help you, Kai-Teng rolled two 20's in a row.

That doesn't sound very fun.

Fura
09-12-2007, 09:19 AM
I vote for no deathward protection against vorpal! I want to get decapitated!

And see the animation!!

DSL
09-12-2007, 09:20 AM
There's no excuse for incorrect implementation of the rules.

NOTHING stops the vorpal effect. That's the official ruling.

If you roll a 20 and "confirm,", then you cut off the head if it has one and the creature dies if it can't live without its head.

That's it. End of story.

Full disclosure: I don't own a vorpal. I wouldn't use it much if I had it. But it still galls me to see the "Deathward" symbol flash over the heads of monsters that should not be immune to vorpal.

The Devs have plenty of access to creatures that are legitimately immune to vorpal-- undead and constructs, for example. The Gianthold would run just as well with a few more giant skeletons or giant zombies or giant flesh golems or whatever.

And where we, the players, are concerned, when monsters start using vorpal weapons? Well, we should take our lumps. Fair is fair.

In the grand scheme of things, if the Devs want to "heighten the difficulty" of a quest, I would much rather that they give the mobs vorpal blades to use against us, than to break the rules to make mobs immune to our vorpals.

And, of course, they can always allow the players to use the "BLOCK" action to stop "special" attacks from going off. The game can use more tactical twitch play.

The bottom line is that the Vorpal effect is a special case, and requires the DM to think for himself and examine the logic of it, since it falls outside the rules. While it should be potent and difficult to resist, if a generally-available defense were available it would make much more sense for it to be Fortification rather than Deathward. If a DM chooses to allow for such a defense, that's his perogative, but to make Vorpal weapons easy to defend against is likely a big mistake for most PnP campaigns.

For DDO, the devs chose to implement a defense against it, which is not nearly as problematic given that Vorpal weapons are far more common than in PnP campaigns. The decision to do this through Deathblocking effects, while perhaps odd, makes some sense in terms of DDO game mechanics. That is, it seems that they wanted to give a way to make certain MOBs immune to instant-kills (regardless of the source), without giving them blanket immunity to criticals (which would anger and frustrate nearly all melee players).

Presumably, of course, the players will be able to benefit from the same defense, and Death ward is fairly easy to come by, so it's addition to the repertoire of NPC attacks is hardly crippling to us.

Ustice
09-12-2007, 09:21 AM
In general, "Monster got lucky, you die with no recourse" isn't very good gameplay.

Insane AC? Crazy Saves? Every protective spell in the game? Won't help you, Kai-Teng rolled two 20's in a row.

That doesn't sound very fun.

um... Chaos orbs? Beholders?

Destruction is a... well, you know.

After all it is easier to roll a 1 and fail, than for them to roll 2 20's (5% and 0.25% respectively).

teddok
09-12-2007, 09:23 AM
Humm I dee those sets of Deathward armor going up in price on the AH:D .
Time to start posting them.

Laith
09-12-2007, 09:24 AM
um... Chaos orbs? Beholders?

Destruction is a... well, you know.saves apply to all of those situations. in some, a spell grants immunity. try again.

i think the point is that sometimes players get unlucky and die (say rolling a 1), but it was their "mistake" that caused the death. that is seen as different than a monster getting lucky and not even offering a chance at a counter roll.

Hendrik
09-12-2007, 09:26 AM
Easy way to protect from Vorpals;

Remove your neck!

;)


Eladrin;

I see where you are comming from. Might make for a bad game experience. On the other hand, with us increasing in power and the MOB's as well, I think I would kind of like to take that chance at getting Vorpal'd myself. Be a pain at times, just like failing your save on a Disintegrate but also could add some flavor to the game.

M1A1
09-12-2007, 09:29 AM
theres a difference between getting a crit and confirming one. you can confirm a crit, but it wont do anything damage wise against the people immune to it, but it wouldnt stop the effect, as its really non0-damaging (no die rolled) It's not like your wearing armor that puts a 3 inch iron collar around yoru neck to protect from swords.

I do happen to have a 3 inch collar around my neck confering Heavy Fort :)

So am I immune? Since WoTC has stated that DW dosent stop it, you think they will change the way it works?

Mad_Bombardier
09-12-2007, 09:29 AM
In general, "Monster got lucky, you die with no recourse" isn't very good gameplay.

Insane AC? Crazy Saves? Every protective spell in the game? Won't help you, Kai-Teng rolled two 20's in a row.

That doesn't sound very fun.Coming from a PnP campaign with an evil DM, that sounds exactly like my idea of fun. :D 0.25% (.0025 or 1 in 400) chance of happening? No biggie. But, considering the streaky RNG, it's probably best to have some protection.

Ustice
09-12-2007, 09:32 AM
saves apply to all of those situations. in some, a spell grants immunity. try again.

i think the point is that sometimes players get unlucky and die (say rolling a 1), but it was their "mistake" that caused the death. that is seen as different than a monster getting lucky and not even offering a chance at a counter roll.

It comes to the same thing. AC effectively becomes the save. The only difference is who is making the roll. (Though in this case, both are made by the server so I don't think that it matters.)

Actually, with Vorpals you get to make 2 saves. The origional to see if you get hit, and the critical hit confirmation. If your AC is high enough, this can be brought to as low as a 0.25% chance (chance of them rolling two 20's in a row), but you can always fail a save on a roll of a 1 (5% chance).

Also a Vorpal requires an initial roll of a 20 (no bonus allowed so it is a straight 5% chance) just to have the possibility of an instant death.

Ustice
09-12-2007, 09:34 AM
Coming from a PnP campaign with an evil DM, that sounds exactly like my idea of fun. :D 0.25% (.0025 or 1 in 400) chance of happening? No biggie. But, considering the streaky RNG, it's probably best to have some protection.

By the time you are facing Vorpals, you likely have Resurrection anyway. The loss of Constitution sucks, but 'dems the breaks. :)

Strakeln
09-12-2007, 09:49 AM
AAnd next in MOD5... NO ONE should be ever running anywhere without heavy fort., its really easy to purchase one at the AH + there's a LOT of new nice named items having heavy fort. on them. There should be no more excuses for not having one in MOD5...You mean "no melee character", right? Because, at least for my sorc's build, it makes no sense to burn an item slot to avoid critical hits when a few well-placed non-crits will take care of me just as fast.

Wulf_Ratbane
09-12-2007, 09:56 AM
In general, "Monster got lucky, you die with no recourse" isn't very good gameplay.

Insane AC? Crazy Saves? Every protective spell in the game? Won't help you, Kai-Teng rolled two 20's in a row.

That doesn't sound very fun.

Please. That's trite.

It's already analogous to rolling a 1 on any number of instant death saves, disintegrate chief among them.

The playerbase has already assimilated "****, I rolled a 1" into our gaming consciousness.

Vorpal is actually a little more lenient than Disintegrate, since having a high AC at least has a chance of negating the confirmation roll. Both start with a flat 5% chance to hose you-- and then Vorpal drops off.

Although it's worth noting that most players have given up on AC entirely.

Laith
09-12-2007, 09:56 AM
haha, in a game where AC has been deemed "ineffectual" at high levels except for the most focused of builds, i find it really funny that anyone thinks their chance at getting vorpaled would ever be near .25% per swing.

the way i see it, without some sort of immunity is present (be it DW or heavy fort), builds would be "forced" into favoring high AC again.

edit: at worst it's 4.75% chance per swing (could always roll a 1 on the confirm). odds are it's closer to that than .25% for any given character.

most spells and effects can be reduced to 0% with the correct items/spells/HP buffer. the only exception i can think of in DDO is psionics.

Eladrin
09-12-2007, 10:00 AM
The playerbase has already assimilated "****, I rolled a 1" into our gaming consciousness.
*I* rolled a one. That's typically much better taken than an invisible number you never see and spontaneous death.

Wulf_Ratbane
09-12-2007, 10:01 AM
The bottom line is that the Vorpal effect is a special case, and requires the DM to think for himself and examine the logic of it, since it falls outside the rules.

No, it does NOT fall outside the rules. The rule is simple.

If you roll a 20 to hit, and you confirm a crit, and the creature has a head, and losing its head is fatal, the creature is dead.

It could not be any more freaking simple than that.

Wulf_Ratbane
09-12-2007, 10:09 AM
*I* rolled a one. That's typically much better taken than an invisible number you never see and spontaneous death.

You really think people go back and check their combat logs to see what they rolled when the beholder or mind flayer fries them?

It's already invisible, I already know what happened, it doesn't make me feel any better in the slightest to scroll back through my combat log to verify that, yes, in fact *I* rolled a one. There's some consolation in that?

At the gaming table, with a die in my hand? You have a point.

On a computer, where all the "dice" are rolled for me? Not so much.

It's a pretty specious argument, especially weighed against the generally predominant feeling that you should follow the rules whenever feasible.

And if you really want to compare "fun-to-fun," how fun do you think it is for the players to have their vorpal toys taken away from them arbitrarily?

Every mob in the Gianthold has permanent deathward. Really? That's a huge funsuck.

akla_thornfist
09-12-2007, 10:13 AM
i got my head chopped off by the demon queen in pop 2 nights ago, so i think she has a vorpal allready. or was it something else

Mad_Bombardier
09-12-2007, 10:19 AM
In general, "Monster got lucky, you die with no recourse" isn't very good gameplay.

Insane AC? Crazy Saves? Every protective spell in the game? Won't help you, Kai-Teng rolled two 20's in a row.

That doesn't sound very fun.Wait a sec, that's not true! 20 on the confirmation roll should NOT automatically confirm. So, if you can get your AC high enough that the confirm cannot hit, you are immune to the Vorpal effect. Now, perhaps this is not possible with Kai-Teng's to-hit bonus versus player achievable ACs. But, it works in theory.


*I* rolled a one. That's typically much better taken than an invisible number you never see and spontaneous death.And in a game where death is near-meaningless and we can be freely Raised/Resurrected without penalty, why should it matter?

Aeneas
09-12-2007, 10:33 AM
Wait a sec, that's not true! 20 on the confirmation roll should NOT automatically confirm. So, if you can get your AC high enough that the confirm cannot hit, you are immune to the Vorpal effect. Now, perhaps this is not possible with Kai-Teng's to-hit bonus versus player achievable ACs. But, it works in theory.

And in a game where death is near-meaningless and we can be freely Raised/Resurrected without penalty, why should it matter?


What is kai teng? If he's a giant-type i can get to somewhere in the 70's with help for short span.

MrWizard
09-12-2007, 10:39 AM
back in the day....when vorpal CAME out as something that happened and eventually added as a part of an item, it meant nothing more than a really good hit on someone.

You used to roll a 20 and then damage...then the idea of critical hit with a natural 20 blossomed...soon the d100 tables of all sorts of things came out (lop off arm, lop off leg, just a flesh wound?).

Not sure what it is classified as now...but simply put, a natural 20 should have a chance of doing something awesome anyway (which it sorta does now in more damage), but in real combat there are always 'instant kills' even without magic.

We playtested in PvP and heavy fort did not stop someone from cutting off your head (why would it?) but deathward did (some explaination could be a magical warding of vital areas). Heavy fort stops the damage from hitting a critical area of your body (cod piece, good help, etc) and some would think that would stop a vorpal from cutting your head off...

I think the only thing at all that should stop a vorpal is a special neck brace....:D

Ustice
09-12-2007, 10:39 AM
*I* rolled a one. That's typically much better taken than an invisible number you never see and spontaneous death.

*Your head has been severed, and you die.*

"Drat, he rolled a 20."

/me shrugs.

Looks the same to me.

Riddikulus
09-12-2007, 10:40 AM
In general, "Monster got lucky, you die with no recourse" isn't very good gameplay.

Insane AC? Crazy Saves? Every protective spell in the game? Won't help you, Kai-Teng rolled two 20's in a row.

That doesn't sound very fun.
If this game didn't have essentially free, unlimited and unpenalizing raise dead then I'd agree with you. As it is death is merely a temporary condition.

Deathward and the like should not protect against vorpal... either for us or for the mobs, including the giants in gianthold.

The fact that gianthold has such protection has been less than successful... we have simply gone to FtS and they go down much faster than vorpals would have done. So what was the point of that protection?

Ustice
09-12-2007, 10:45 AM
If this game didn't have essentially free, unlimited and unpenalizing raise dead then I'd agree with you. As it is death is merely a temporary condition.

13:42:31 *Your head has been removed, and you die*
13:42:33 *MegaKleirk wants to Resurrect you. Accept?*
13:42:34 *MegaKlerik heals you for 1032 hit points.*
[MegaKlerik]: I gotcha. Sorry I took so long, I was in the middle of casting Heal.

B-)

Lorien_the_First_One
09-12-2007, 10:50 AM
*I* rolled a one. That's typically much better taken than an invisible number you never see and spontaneous death.

I disagree Elardin. Me rolling a 1 is no diff than them rolling a 20 and then confirming. I'm dead either way. The vorpal effect should be properly implimented. We shouldn't be imune and mobs (not even purple named) shouldn't be imune through either blanket immunities or a deathward/guard effect

Gornin
09-12-2007, 10:56 AM
Personally Death Ward protecting from being vorpalled makes sense. Vorpal power is essentially an instant death magic that has a specific physical effect to kill. Decapitation. And it also has a very specific and difficult trigger. How else could a little dinky longsword decapitate a giant? Dragon? As I recall there is no size limit to what vorpal will effect, and one of the death spells is required to make a vorpal. Death knell or some thing like that. I welcome any one to correct me on this thought, because I may not be remembering correctly. That is why heavy fort does not protect against vorpals. That is how it works in my campaign.

Wizzly_Bear
09-12-2007, 11:04 AM
i, for one, am tired of generic blanket immunities of enemies. we have clickies and spells, why can't they each have their own set of clickies that they use to buff themselves? why cant i charm or finger the dq? b/c you said so? thats a poor way to institute fun as well. now, if she were to buff against, and i could dispel, then she buff again, et cetera, we get the same result as now, that i cant use my favorite spells, but there's a reason other than 'b/c we said so' or 'b/c we spent a lot of time making it a certain way and we want it played that way'. gh, well, maybe theyre all wearing db items, so ok, but im tired of half my spell list being utterly useless and im sure that tanks feel the same about their weapons. it cuts off their head, period. being pigeonholed is not a fun way to play the game either.

btw, back to OP, i dont like the enemies using vorpal, and ill tell you why. it levels a part of the playing field, which normally would be a good thing, but its one of the only parts we had to our advantage. if theyre going to get our weapon effects then i want their enlarged spell list and infinite sps. also their saves, hps, et cetera would be nice to.

Wizzly_Bear
09-12-2007, 11:06 AM
Wait a sec, that's not true! 20 on the confirmation roll should NOT automatically confirm. So, if you can get your AC high enough that the confirm cannot hit, you are immune to the Vorpal effect. Now, perhaps this is not possible with Kai-Teng's to-hit bonus versus player achievable ACs. But, it works in theory.

And in a game where death is near-meaningless and we can be freely Raised/Resurrected without penalty, why should it matter?

IIRC.....a 20 on the confirmation roll does auto confirm. could be wrong, but pretty sure it does. been awhile since i saw the srd though, and this game deviates from that pretty far as well, so.......

Killbilly
09-12-2007, 11:09 AM
IIRC.....a 20 on the confirmation roll does auto confirm. could be wrong, but pretty sure it does. been awhile since i saw the srd though, and this game deviates from that pretty far as well, so.......

Well, I've successfully confirmed crits on a 1, so you can probably still fail on a 20. At least here, in pnp I'm not sure off the top of my head.

Elthbert
09-12-2007, 11:12 AM
There's no excuse for incorrect implementation of the rules.

NOTHING stops the vorpal effect. That's the official ruling.

If you roll a 20 and "confirm,", then you cut off the head if it has one and the creature dies if it can't live without its head.

That's it. End of story.

Full disclosure: I don't own a vorpal. I wouldn't use it much if I had it. But it still galls me to see the "Deathward" symbol flash over the heads of monsters that should not be immune to vorpal.

The Devs have plenty of access to creatures that are legitimately immune to vorpal-- undead and constructs, for example. The Gianthold would run just as well with a few more giant skeletons or giant zombies or giant flesh golems or whatever.

And where we, the players, are concerned, when monsters start using vorpal weapons? Well, we should take our lumps. Fair is fair.

In the grand scheme of things, if the Devs want to "heighten the difficulty" of a quest, I would much rather that they give the mobs vorpal blades to use against us, than to break the rules to make mobs immune to our vorpals.

And, of course, they can always allow the players to use the "BLOCK" action to stop "special" attacks from going off. The game can use more tactical twitch play.

Actually there is no offical ruling that nothing stops the Vorpal effect, there is an official ruling that heavy fortification does not stop the effect, something I have argued for years, on the D&D forum, and with much ridicule after the first ruling that indead it did. That does not mean that nothing stops it, there have been offical products which had items and effects which specifically stated they stopped vorpal effects.

That said I am just commenting on how vorpal has been implimented, concidering how many things have been altered in this game I think it is a relativly minor rules deviation.

kbmay44
09-12-2007, 11:15 AM
IIRC.....a 20 on the confirmation roll does auto confirm. could be wrong, but pretty sure it does. been awhile since i saw the srd though, and this game deviates from that pretty far as well, so.......

It has been stated by the Devs that even in DDO a 20 is an auto hit and a 1 is an auto miss.

Riddikulus
09-12-2007, 11:17 AM
It has been stated by the Devs that even in DDO a 20 is an auto hit and a 1 is an auto miss.
For an attack yes, but we're not talking about that.

For a confirmation roll, 1 is _not_ an auto miss. They are asking if 20 is _not_ an auto confirm as well.

Wizzly_Bear
09-12-2007, 11:19 AM
Well, I've successfully confirmed crits on a 1, so you can probably still fail on a 20. At least here, in pnp I'm not sure off the top of my head.

hmm, well suppose it would follow that 20s wouldnt necessarily be auto confirms then.

gtjohnson
09-12-2007, 11:24 AM
page 226 of the DMG says the following about vorpal's

To create Craft magic arms and armors ,(circle of death, keen edge)

Looks like death ward would block circle of death as it is an instant kill effect.

Laith
09-12-2007, 11:26 AM
page 226 of the DMG says the following about vorpal's

To create Craft magic arms and armors ,(circle of death, keen edge)

Looks like death ward would block circle of death as it is an instant kill effect.you're thinking too hard. it's spelled out in the Magic Items: Vorpal section.

vorpal cuts off heads. whatever happens to the creature after that (usually death) is completely secondary. It is NOT a death effect, just like Flesh to Stone is NOT a paralysis effect.

while deathward makes sense as a possible immunity, in pnp it is not.

Gornin
09-12-2007, 11:26 AM
page 226 of the DMG says the following about vorpal's

To create Craft magic arms and armors ,(circle of death, keen edge)

Looks like death ward would block circle of death as it is an instant kill effect.

ty

gtjohnson
09-12-2007, 11:33 AM
you're thinking too hard. it's spelled out in the Magic Items: Vorpal section.

vorpal cuts off heads. whatever happens to the creature after that (usually death) is completely secondary. It is NOT a death effect, just like Flesh to Stone is NOT a paralysis effect.


The vorpal is a result of the spell that creates the sword so if u are saying that keen causes it then dang i need a me a keen weapon lol.

But seriously it does seem that circle causes the effect but in pnp it is really up to the Dm to determine cause and effect so with that thinking then slay living could be another way to create the weapons.

However neither explains why it effects vampires as they are already (dead), maybe it is that pesky keen edge lol :eek:

Dane_McArdy
09-12-2007, 11:34 AM
i got my head chopped off by the demon queen in pop 2 nights ago, so i think she has a vorpal allready. or was it something else

Which one?

Bada-BING!

Wizzly_Bear
09-12-2007, 11:38 AM
The vorpal is a result of the spell that creates the sword so if u are saying that keen causes it then dang i need a me a keen weapon lol.

But seriously it does seem that circle causes the effect but in pnp it is really up to the Dm to determine cause and effect so with that thinking then slay living could be another way to create the weapons.

However neither explains why it effects vampires as they are already (dead), maybe it is that pesky keen edge lol :eek:

i dont think its supposed to affect vampires.....

they have heads to cut off, but iirc, they dont need their heads to live

Gornin
09-12-2007, 11:47 AM
Agreed, the vamp should not be able to be vorpalled. It states undead are immune. An argument could be made as to intelligent vs unintelligent undead, since it doesn't affect things that have actual life, but are animated. Intelligent undead have negative life energy and a will, so maybe that is the reason they allow it. I don't in my campaign.

Yes, it is a specific death effect caused by coupling those 2 specific spells in conjuction on an item, otherwise it is not explainable as to how huge and colossal creatures are affected by it. It is death magic and blockable by a ward. Items that state they can stop a vorpal weapon effect have death ward in their descriptor to create them.

Killbilly
09-12-2007, 11:50 AM
Vampires are specifically mentioned in the descriptive text as being vulnerable to being vorp'ed. In a lot of vampire folklore and fiction, removing the head is one of the few ways to kill one, so it makes perfect sense.

Gornin
09-12-2007, 11:51 AM
Vampires are specifically mentioned in the descriptive text as being vulnerable to being vorp'ed. In a lot of vampire folklore and fiction, removing the head is one of the few ways to kill one, so it makes perfect sense.

Forgot about that. Ty for clarification.

Solstice
09-12-2007, 12:00 PM
tested before on pvp (when module 3 launched) and deathward spell (not deathblock item) protected against vorpal and smiting....
dunno if will change on mod5. and nice if mobs can do that... but we could be consider red or purple name too :D

Wizzly_Bear
09-12-2007, 12:09 PM
Vampires are specifically mentioned in the descriptive text as being vulnerable to being vorp'ed. In a lot of vampire folklore and fiction, removing the head is one of the few ways to kill one, so it makes perfect sense.

i've never encountered a mythos with vampires where chopping off the head was sufficient for terminating a vampire's existence. some where heads were chopped off to see if they were vamps (ie if they survived they were vamp), some where stake in the heart, some wooden stake in the heart, some chopping off head and stuffing mouth with garlic, some with head chop with garlic in mouth and stake in heart, et cetera..... but never one where soley chopping off the head resulted in an end to existence. they always have some form of supernatural healing/regeneration.

Wulf_Ratbane
09-12-2007, 12:21 PM
The vorpal is a result of the spell that creates the sword so if u are saying that keen causes it then dang i need a me a keen weapon lol.

But seriously it does seem that circle causes the effect but in pnp it is really up to the Dm to determine cause and effect so with that thinking then slay living could be another way to create the weapons.

The spells used in the creation of magic items are there for (a) flavor and (b) balancing mechanisms. Other than that, they have no force in the rules.

Your logic is severely flawed.

You need the holy smite spell to create a holy weapon, but that does not mean that a globe of invulnerability will negate the holy effect on a holy sword-- nor would globe of invulnerability negate any weapon effect "created" with a 4th level or lower spell: flaming, frost, etc.

The fact that vorpal requires the circle of death presumably informed the decision to use deathward as the counter to vorpal, but that is a judgement call with no basis in the rules as written.

Gratch
09-12-2007, 12:22 PM
[Rated D for Decapitated]

I'm perfectly fine with the vorpal effect killing deathwarded players. As long as the vorpal animation gets a lot better. Blue??? Meh. I want to see a party member's head (with pretty helmet) roll up to my clerics feet when it happens. Then it would be totally worth it.

Once the mobs are clear, my cleric can have a talk with said tank's head "Do you really think you should roll on the cleric's mace next time we win the raid?"

Riddikulus
09-12-2007, 12:22 PM
i've never encountered a mythos with vampires where chopping off the head was sufficient for terminating a vampire's existence ... some chopping off head and stuffing mouth with garlic ...
Well technically in D&D you are cutting off his head and stuffing his mouth with holy wafers, but I haven't seen any holy wafers in the marketplace.

Slaying a Vampire: Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn’t always destroy it (see the note on fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape. Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion. Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent).

Ringlord
09-12-2007, 12:28 PM
I don't really care if we as players can be killed by Vorpal effect or not. I do see it as this though for purposes of the debate here.

Ok so deathblock and deathward work to stop the vorpal effect, but people are arguing that those are only for stopping spells and spell like abilities. Ok so basically magic effect that cause death. Now what is the vorpal part of a vorpal sword, but a magical effect that causes death by causing the blade to lop off the victims head. Ok so when the dice roll shows a 20 bringing up the confirmation roll which is the activation of the magical effect then that magic triggers the deathblock/deathward magic and viola.... it is blocked or stopped and no head loss for you.

Seems pretty simple to me. Sure it would be fun to see our heads go rolling :D and we die instantly in many other ways by failing a save at some time or another, but at the higher levels now it is mainly because we did not prepare protective spells before the fight. I think for now until they balance how often we are likely to run into mobs with the vorpal ability and how often it might happen it is best to leave the deathward/deathblock protection in place. Maybe they can change it later.

Jaysensen
09-12-2007, 12:31 PM
That doesn't sound very fun.

I dunno know man. Having my friends' heads lopped off randomly sounds like A LOT of fun to me.


Raar!

JayDubya
09-12-2007, 12:33 PM
for what it's worth, I'm with Eladrin - an invisible, unlogged, instant death sucks.

Others may not look at the combat logs when they die, but I do, and I would be very frustrated if I didn't know what was causing it.

With deathward on, a high level melee type is unlikely to die if hit by a single disintegrate, so even a failed save there is not the end of the world.

So I say no to monster vorpals. However, I see no problem with monster Wounders and Puncturers :)

Riddikulus
09-12-2007, 12:41 PM
Now what is the vorpal part of a vorpal sword, but a magical effect that causes death by causing the blade to lop off the victims head.
The argument here is that the magical effect is _not_ causing death... it is simply cutting off your head. That is a subtle but important difference. If you cannot survive without your head, that is your own problem.


I dunno know man. Having my friends' heads lopped off randomly sounds like A LOT of fun to me.
That would dovetail nicely into having a "friendly fire" difficulty setting for quests. :D


for what it's worth, I'm with Eladrin - an invisible, unlogged, instant death sucks.

Others may not look at the combat logs when they die, but I do, and I would be very frustrated if I didn't know what was causing it.
Nothing wrong with having a message "XXX has cut off your head. You die."

Gornin
09-12-2007, 12:43 PM
The spells used in the creation of magic items are there for (a) flavor and (b) balancing mechanisms. Other than that, they have no force in the rules.

Your logic is severely flawed.

You need the holy smite spell to create a holy weapon, but that does not mean that a globe of invulnerability will negate the holy effect on a holy sword-- nor would globe of invulnerability negate any weapon effect "created" with a 4th level or lower spell: flaming, frost, etc.

The fact that vorpal requires the circle of death presumably informed the decision to use deathward as the counter to vorpal, but that is a judgement call with no basis in the rules as written.

I don't see how my logic is flawed. It has to a magic effect or that little longsword couldn't lop off that adult red dragons' head in one swing. The descriptors for creating magic items are not for flavor, they are what is required. The flavor is provided by the DM, in that he sets up the other parameters to create the items. Like finding the right ritual in an old tome, or requiring the sword to be cooled in basilisk blood.

Wulf_Ratbane
09-12-2007, 12:51 PM
I don't see how my logic is flawed.

My post was as clear as it could be. Read the third paragraph again and see if it clicks.

If it doesn't, the fault doesn't lie with my explanation, but with your comprehension.

ccheath776
09-12-2007, 12:54 PM
No, it does NOT fall outside the rules. The rule is simple.

If you roll a 20 to hit, and you confirm a crit, and the creature has a head, and losing its head is fatal, the creature is dead.

It could not be any more freaking simple than that.

Hvy fort should protect against criticals.
Whatever the PNP books say about it should be final.

Riddikulus
09-12-2007, 12:55 PM
I don't see how my logic is flawed. It has to a magic effect or that little longsword couldn't lop off that adult red dragons' head in one swing. The descriptors for creating magic items are not for flavor, they are what is required. The flavor is provided by the DM, in that he sets up the other parameters to create the items. Like finding the right ritual in an old tome, or requiring the sword to be cooled in basilisk blood.
If you are going to argue that the "Circle of Death" spell automatically means that vorpal is blocked by "Deathward", then you must also argue that a vorpal cannot work on mobs>=9 HD, also per "Circle of Death".

The items required in the creation of the vorpal has no bearing on its final properties.

Gornin
09-12-2007, 01:11 PM
My post was as clear as it could be. Read the third paragraph again and see if it clicks.

If it doesn't, the fault doesn't lie with my explanation, but with your comprehension.

Since most weapon effects are created by spells higher than 4th lvl, sure minor globe wouldn't work, but major globe might and anti magic field will definately. That has no bearing on how the vorpal effect is created, or what is required to create the weapon. The spell descriptions do, or we couldnt create items if the spell didn't cause the effect on the item. If you want flaming, do you use a fire type spell. Which spell decides if it is lessor, normal or greater. So spells required to make item do have an impact on what the item is or how it works. You dont make a portable hole by using the acid arrow spell. So the spells are not there for flavor, they mean something.

As you can see, no comprehension problem here.

Now, try to explain how my little long sword cuts off the giants head when he is 20 feet tall and a neck like a sequoia and I am swinging at his knee cap, if it isnt a magical effect. Seems you avoided explaining that to me and instead tried to impugn my intelligence.

As to circle of death not affecting higher than 9HD, the spell is coupled with the keen weapon spell, and there is a ritual decided by the DM to bind the powers and have them work in conjuction, creating a more powerful, but limited effect. It is not AOE, and it is only triggerable by a very specific situation, all which concentrates its power.

Riddikulus
09-12-2007, 01:23 PM
Now, try to explain how my little long sword cuts off the giants head when he is 20 feet tall and a neck like a sequoia and I am swinging at his knee cap, if it isnt a magical effect. Seems you avoided explaining that to me and instead tried to impugn my intelligence.
So you are suggesting that while the giant is swinging his sword at a small creature that at no time does the giant's head have to lower a bit in order to do so?


As to circle of death not affecting higher than 9HD, the spell is coupled with the keen weapon spell, and there is a ritual decided by the DM to bind the powers and have them work in conjuction, creating a more powerful, but limited effect. It is not AOE, and it is only triggerable by a very specific situation, all which concentrates its power.
And as it is concentrated it is thus unaffected by Deathward. :D

Wulf_Ratbane
09-12-2007, 01:30 PM
Now, try to explain how my little long sword cuts off the giants head when he is 20 feet tall and a neck like a sequoia and I am swinging at his knee cap, if it isnt a magical effect.

It is a magical effect. I never suggested otherwise.

But it isn't circle of death and it isn't blocked by death ward.

Mad_Bombardier
09-12-2007, 01:36 PM
It has been stated by the Devs that even in DDO a 20 is an auto hit and a 1 is an auto miss.Nope. That applies to attack roll only, not critical confirmation.

I have failed to confirm a critical in DDO with a 20. Happened long ago with my (then midbie) Cleric versus the Fire Giant Captain in The Flame Lord's Haven. I came to the forums (and SRD) for help to learn what happened.

Riddikulus
09-12-2007, 01:41 PM
It is a magical effect. I never suggested otherwise.
I dunno... as a DM if I had a situation where a 20' giant was just standing there while a halfling was wildly swinging a vorpal down at the 4' level, I probably wouldn't allow the vorpal effect to occur... I think there are limits there.

Kind of like those cartoons where the little guy is swinging wildly while the big guy is holding him at arm's length.

Wulf_Ratbane
09-12-2007, 01:44 PM
I dunno... as a DM if I had a situation where a 20' giant was just standing there while a halfling was wildly swinging a vorpal down at the 4' level, I probably wouldn't allow the vorpal effect to occur... I think there are limits there.

Not according to the rules there aren't. In for a penny, in for a pound. Either you open the door to all sorts of "reasonable" interpretations, or you play the rules as written.

You know where I stand. ;)

Riddikulus
09-12-2007, 01:47 PM
Not according to the rules there aren't. In for a penny, in for a pound. Either you open the door to all sorts of "reasonable" interpretations, or you play the rules as written.

You know where I stand. ;)
Maybe it's the other head. Never mind, I shouldn't have gone there.

Riddikulus
09-12-2007, 01:49 PM
Not according to the rules there aren't. In for a penny, in for a pound. Either you open the door to all sorts of "reasonable" interpretations, or you play the rules as written.

You know where I stand. ;)
I guess arguably, when the vorpal effect went off, the halfling actually cut off the giant's leg on the frontswing, and then lopped off the head with the backswing as the giant came down... so in the end it can be explained.

It's just a flesh wound.

Laith
09-12-2007, 01:55 PM
I guess arguably, when the vorpal effect went off, the halfling actually cut off the giant's leg on the frontswing, and then lopped off the head with the backswing as the giant came down... so in the end it can be explained.

It's just a flesh wound.
that, or like the books explain, creatures just aren't standing around waiting for their turn. they move, they dodge, they occasionaly open themselves up to attack.

edit: dragons bite you, giants follow through to get full force, and both occasionally get distracted when fighting multiple opponents

Wulf_Ratbane
09-12-2007, 01:56 PM
I guess arguably, when the vorpal effect went off, the halfling actually cut off the giant's leg on the frontswing, and then lopped off the head with the backswing as the giant came down... so in the end it can be explained.

I'd be perfectly content with a ruling that you can't vorpal something 2 or more size categories larger than the wielder-- if that was the rule as written.

Maybe 4e will get it right. ;)

Emili
09-12-2007, 01:56 PM
As we got a mini spoiler this week about what's coming up in the MOD5 preraid, (u can be vorpaled), I was like, what the... we MUST have a way to protect ourselves against this! And yes, we can protects our nice lil heads from being vorpaled :D

So to find out, I did a few tests with a friend in a tavern and to my great surprise, it wasn't at all what I was expecting...

Deathblock items protects against vorpals as well as Deathward (yes, both!), but NOT heavy fortification... and I thought it was a huge nonsense so I want ppl comments on this.

From my point of view, it should be the opposite, Heavy Fort. should protects us against vorpal but not deathblock or deathward.

About deathblock/deathward, they are suppose to protect against death spells as everyone knows (Slay Living, Destruction, PK & FoD so far). PK is suppose to cast something based on your greatest fear and make it looks so real that if you can't disbelieve the illusion, it "kills" you. Nothing really physical in this, even if there's a Fort save as everything is between your ears :D You disbelieve or you die from your fear...

For FoD, there's no real description in the compendium but I assume it's feeding on your Life Force, which isn't really a physical effect either I would say.

However, "Vorpal" isn't a spell, but rather a magical effect/enhancement on a slashing weapon. Once that magical effect is activated tho (with a 20), you need to confirm a critical THEN you got the effect, which is as physical as it can be! :p You lose your head, plain and simple. :eek: So if you wear heavy fortification, which is suppose to protects you from "head to feet" and void any possibilities to confirm any criticals, I can hardly find any logical reason to say it shouldn't protect you against vorpals.

I'm also wondering how this works in PnP as I haven't been able to verify this so far...

If we were back in MOD 3, I would say that we might have needed it that way as heavy fortification was rare, not to say priceless, and that many ppl didn't had it yet.

Now in MOD4, 50-75% of ppl wear heavy fort. on an item, it's kinda a "logical" requirement in Gianthold now.

And next in MOD5... NO ONE should be ever running anywhere without heavy fort., its really easy to purchase one at the AH + there's a LOT of new nice named items having heavy fort. on them. There should be no more excuses for not having one in MOD5...

So my questions would be..

1. How this works in PnP? I know, this is DDO, not AD&D, I still want to know how it works in PnP, if we can protects ourselves against vorpals and if so, how. I understand many times we need to change some stuff, but I hardly see why we would need to change that from PnP.

2. Is my logic right about the spells/effects etc.. or am I missing/forgetting any infos about all this? :rolleyes: (I believe ONLY heavy fort. should protects us against this, nothing else). If you don't think only heavy fort. should works for vorpals, bring arguments please, I would like to hear them ;)

Tx for your time all :cool:

Fortification does not prevent a critical on you ... it prevents the x damage - that is it. All other damages take place... including any special damages such as smiting, disruption etc... that is how those work (think about it undead and golems can not take critical hits ... but these special effects have to fall on the critical hit range).

The word on Vorpal... The denifition Vorpal to me (and maybe I feel this way due to I go back to original rules where we had vorpal and swords of sharpness as an alignment restricted weapon)... should not be negated by Death Ward or Death Block nor even Fortification. The weapon is enchanted to help seek the neck. The roll of 20 then confirmed hit means you hit the neck area... the confirmation means that this sharp blade and the force you hit with it decapitated the opponent. IMO... nothing should stop that.

Gratch
09-12-2007, 03:13 PM
You know where I stand. ;)

I would guess if you were a halfling, you'd be standing on the giant's belt or back. Easier to vorpal from there but tough to communicate with minis, PnP movement rules or DDO. It's in the movies though... and probably computer RPG's a few years from now.

I'd go check if Age of Conan has that complexity to movement, but at this point I believe just browsing their website pushes out the release date by a year.

paintedman
09-12-2007, 03:41 PM
I guess for my two cents, a crit from a weapon is a natrually occuring effect, where as a vorp is a magical effect, Fort stopping natrual, death block stopping vorp.

Why the beef, its not like everyone has a vorp anyway...

-paintedman

Gornin
09-12-2007, 04:17 PM
Maybe it's the other head. Never mind, I shouldn't have gone there.

I had to clean my laptop because I spewed my tea I was drinking when I read this one. ROFLMAO.

Look, you guys are making my point. You, as the DM, are filling in actions to explain what happened, even if it isn't physically possible. Giant scenario - the person weilding the vorp is behind the giant to get back attack bonus, and the giant has used all of its attacks on opponents in front of it, it has no more actions or movement, PC takes last swing -20!, then rolls and confirms crit. So either the magic grabbed the giant and spun him around and presented his neck for the slaughter, or an instant death magic effect took place, picture an invisible disc that is razor sharp passing through the neck. Or the dragon, PC with vorp is near back leg and dragon used its bite attack on opponents in front of it. PC rolls 20, confirms and dragons head 20 feet away drops off, even though its neck is 8 feet thick.

No, it is not magic circle of death, but it is instant death magic, and so is CoD. And who says in the creation of a vorpal that CoD is required to be cast several times on the sword to increase its potency, along with keen wep, including the masterwork wep, when being forged had to be cooled in the blood of a creature with death magic (basilisk), and other requirements to make the item difficult to make and keep it fairly rare, but also makes it more potent than the base spells. How about using PWK, instead of CoD. I would accept that as a substitute for 2 of the CoD spells and ad nauseum. I could go on.

It is instant death magic that is rare and powerful and only works in a very specific set of circumstances. And no save either. How many times has the cleric in any PnP game mem'd and used DW? Rarely. And the few items that do stop vorpal effects use DW in the creation.

That is my view on it. I don't think you guys are wrong. I see your points of view, but I am trying to use logic to explain why I think I have a point and why I don't have an issue with it in DDO. Let's not even start me up on the super pimped mobs. Because of that and my own reasoning, I don't have a problem with it. Thanks for putting up with me.

Lmjankus1
09-12-2007, 05:58 PM
I think the prevalence of vorpal weapons is really the problem. I regularly group with people who have one vorpal for three of their melee alts.
The vorpal effect on a weapon, should be rare, nearly one of a kind. Generally you need to kill someone to pry it from their cold dead fingers. In our ancient pnp campaign we regularly defended the life and equipment of the character who had one. It was the basis of many an adventure.
I vote the monsters get vorpal effects just like us, Deathward be the magical protection against vorpals.

I also vote the monsters have limited spell points, can't aggro on me when im invisible and didnt do anything to them, and wizards should be able to figure out how to use any magic item in the game with enough research time-without rolling.

They are really more guidelines than rules. In every DM guide since the paperbacks, it says the DM's rule is the rule. If something isn't clear you as the DM can decide, just stick with your decision. As long as you spell it out so folks know what to expect, there should be no whining.

ChaosTheEternal
09-12-2007, 06:26 PM
No, it is not magic circle of death, but it is instant death magicNo, it's not. A Vorpal weapon does not make a Death Attack. All the effect of a Vorpal is is to instantly cut a creature's head from it's body.

If the creature doesn't have a body, Vorpal can't work (so, it's not death magic, because if it was, that wouldn't matter).
Some creatures immune to death magic and death attacks (vampires are an example of this) are vulnerable to decapitation, so that precludes it from being a death attack or death magic.
Creatures that aren't affected by decapitation can still be hit by the Vorpal effect. It just doesn't do anything important.


And who says in the creation of a vorpal that CoD is required to be cast several times on the sword to increase its potency, along with keen wep, including the masterwork wep, when being forged had to be cooled in the blood of a creature with death magic (basilisk), and other requirements to make the item difficult to make and keep it fairly rare, but also makes it more potent than the base spells. How about using PWK, instead of CoD. I would accept that as a substitute for 2 of the CoD spells and ad nauseum. I could go on.I don't know where you're getting that from. To create a Vorpal weapon, the caster merely has to prepare Circle of Death and Keen Edge when they go to make the weapon. No components, focus, or XP that the spells would consume are used, just the spell slots for the day.


That is my view on it. I don't think you guys are wrong. I see your points of view, but I am trying to use logic to explain why I think I have a point and why I don't have an issue with it in DDO. Let's not even start me up on the super pimped mobs. Because of that and my own reasoning, I don't have a problem with it. Thanks for putting up with me.I have an issue with it in DDO as it goes against the D&D rules. I got clarification from a Wizards customer service rep that I posted in the first page, but feel free to ask another one yourself (http://wizards.custhelp.com/). I had asked about Vorpal, Coup de Grace, and massive damage as they all have something in common. It's how grievous the injury is that kills.




Me? I wouldn't mind seeing the named mobs wielding special weapons like that. They're as "rare" as we are, so why not see them wielding unique weapons, like Paralyzers/Vorpals/Wounders/Puncturers/etc.?

I think the closest we get right now are some named that have slight additional damage effects on weapons and some higher end mobs with Unholy/Pure Evil weapons. Named mobs are higher level too, and they are more prominent in their circles, so no reason to think they wouldn't be better equipped.

Twerpp
09-12-2007, 06:42 PM
At this point all of the people whining that high AC is useless (which is untrue) can rejoice. High AC = less chance of crit confirmation. So unless the mobs are getting bloodstones you are much better off than other builds. Or just remind your friendly cleric to load death ward before those quests.

Wulf_Ratbane
09-12-2007, 06:53 PM
Or just remind your friendly cleric to load death ward before those quests.

What cleric doesn't have deathward loaded at all times?

Gornin
09-13-2007, 10:13 AM
No, it's not. A Vorpal weapon does not make a Death Attack. All the effect of a Vorpal is is to instantly cut a creature's head from it's body.

If the creature doesn't have a body, Vorpal can't work (so, it's not death magic, because if it was, that wouldn't matter).
Some creatures immune to death magic and death attacks (vampires are an example of this) are vulnerable to decapitation, so that precludes it from being a death attack or death magic.
Creatures that aren't affected by decapitation can still be hit by the Vorpal effect. It just doesn't do anything important.

You definately have a point there. But the magic acts different because of the combination of spells and the ritual for binding them together, causing a spectacular effect,and most monsters that are immune to death magic are constructs and undead. Very few monsters outside of those have death magic immunity.


I don't know where you're getting that from. To create a Vorpal weapon, the caster merely has to prepare Circle of Death and Keen Edge when they go to make the weapon. No components, focus, or XP that the spells would consume are used, just the spell slots for the day.

Magic items, especially items as powerful as vorpal, are difficult and time consuming to make, not to mention expensive. The DMG talks about making an item like this the subject of small side quests and it takes days to do the actual enchanting. Making a vorpal is not" Hey, lets give our fighter in the group a vorpal. I'll stop by to local shop, pick up a masterwork sword and go home and enchant it tommorow- bang - a vorpal". If your DM allows this by saying ," Well, just spend the money and the XP and we will say you did it in between adventures", you're lucky. And dont forget the spells enchant weapon and permanancy. Permanancy requires XP.



I have an issue with it in DDO as it goes against the D&D rules. I got clarification from a Wizards customer service rep that I posted in the first page, but feel free to ask another one yourself (http://wizards.custhelp.com/). I had asked about Vorpal, Coup de Grace, and massive damage as they all have something in common. It's how grievous the injury is that kills.

OK, I see that, so my conclusion is that circle of death is not the right spell. Lets say disentegrate would be more appropriate, since DW doesn't protect against it, to create a vorpal.
And I get the stuff about not following D&D. But it is closer than anything else out there, and as coding and technology improves, hopefully it will get better.


Me? I wouldn't mind seeing the named mobs wielding special weapons like that. They're as "rare" as we are, so why not see them wielding unique weapons, like Paralyzers/Vorpals/Wounders/Puncturers/etc.?

I think the closest we get right now are some named that have slight additional damage effects on weapons and some higher end mobs with Unholy/Pure Evil weapons. Named mobs are higher level too, and they are more prominent in their circles, so no reason to think they wouldn't be better equipped.

Agreed.

tihocan
09-13-2007, 12:16 PM
At this point all of the people whining that high AC is useless (which is untrue) can rejoice.
That's also what I was thinking and why I'd rather see the D&D rules be applied. But I understand I'm probably in the minority here ;)

People who don't care about AC will just wear a deathblock armor, so little change for them....

Spookydodger
09-13-2007, 01:17 PM
In general, "Monster got lucky, you die with no recourse" isn't very good gameplay.

Insane AC? Crazy Saves? Every protective spell in the game? Won't help you, Kai-Teng rolled two 20's in a row.

That doesn't sound very fun.

Well, Insane AC doesn't help you in the game anyhow, at least the insane AC we can achieve relative to the hitting ability of mobs. However, if it were insane relative to the mob's ability to hit us, then yes, it would protect you, as the crit wouldn't be comfirmed.

I believe the standing argument for deathward working against vorpal is that death spells are used to create a vorpal blade. At least that was what I read in these forums previously.

Spookydodger
09-13-2007, 01:22 PM
*I* rolled a one. That's typically much better taken than an invisible number you never see and spontaneous death.

Actually, this brings up a point I've been meaning to make. Do you think it's possible we can have an option to see numbers of things that affect us? Such as attack rolls against us, SR checks against us, and the like.

It would be nice to know for testing and general usage. (Holy cow, this guy hit me with a 75, my AC really IS useless)

DSL
09-13-2007, 01:47 PM
Actually, this brings up a point I've been meaning to make. Do you think it's possible we can have an option to see numbers of things that affect us? Such as attack rolls against us, SR checks against us, and the like.

It would be nice to know for testing and general usage. (Holy cow, this guy hit me with a 75, my AC really IS useless)

If they did this, then it wouldn't be long before we had complete listings of the overall hit bonuses of everymajor MOB in the game. There are several reason why this is a bad idea, mostly involving metagaming issues, but in any case I would presume that this was something Turbine very deliberately didn't want to happen.

Talon_Moonshadow
09-13-2007, 01:58 PM
There's no excuse for incorrect implementation of the rules.

NOTHING stops the vorpal effect. That's the official ruling.

If you roll a 20 and "confirm,", then you cut off the head if it has one and the creature dies if it can't live without its head.

That's it. End of story.

Full disclosure: I don't own a vorpal. I wouldn't use it much if I had it. But it still galls me to see the "Deathward" symbol flash over the heads of monsters that should not be immune to vorpal.

The Devs have plenty of access to creatures that are legitimately immune to vorpal-- undead and constructs, for example. The Gianthold would run just as well with a few more giant skeletons or giant zombies or giant flesh golems or whatever.

And where we, the players, are concerned, when monsters start using vorpal weapons? Well, we should take our lumps. Fair is fair.

In the grand scheme of things, if the Devs want to "heighten the difficulty" of a quest, I would much rather that they give the mobs vorpal blades to use against us, than to break the rules to make mobs immune to our vorpals.

And, of course, they can always allow the players to use the "BLOCK" action to stop "special" attacks from going off. The game can use more tactical twitch play.

The best use for a vorpal in my experiance had been for my low DPS multi classed toon to use on those casters that keep healing themselves.

Maybe on vampires as well....other than that, it's nice but not so great really.
(I want that axe from VON1!!!)

Talon_Moonshadow
09-13-2007, 02:05 PM
*I* rolled a one. That's typically much better taken than an invisible number you never see and spontaneous death.

Uhmm.......can we see some of thise numbers plz? Sometimes I understand why it should be hidden, but most of the time I'd like to know what happened.
If not the rolls, than a better explaination of why....or more documentation as how certain things work in the game.

Talon_Moonshadow
09-13-2007, 02:09 PM
i got my head chopped off by the demon queen in pop 2 nights ago, so i think she has a vorpal allready. or was it something else

Seems like it doesn't it. :) she gets six attacks i think.....but in her case there doesn't even seem to be one attack animation....she just ets in your face and you die. :)

Cyr
09-13-2007, 02:12 PM
creatures like golems and various undead are not killed by vorpals...how about making those creatures who are not killed when valid (ie most undead, but not lets say oozes) are vorpaled they are blinded instead (since their head is laying somewhere at their feet :) )
Seriously though, just wanted to comment on the deathward vs. heavy fortification argument. Deathward not stopping vorpals would result in some very annoyed players come MOD 5 and fortification never stopped vorpals in 3.0 or 3.5 PnP so this slight tweaking of the rules for player enjoyment is a good thing in my mind. Every effect in PnP pretty much has a counter (think the wizard spells which make it so that your life force is put in like your pinky finger that you cut off so vorpals do not kill you ) and in DDO there clearly is not the amount of variability as in PnP so making these slight rule adjustments for player enjoyment is a good thing...now in the future if they let us have a way of protecting vs. vorpals that is in PnP they can always revoke the deathward protection ala what heals feeblemind :)

Talon_Moonshadow
09-13-2007, 02:18 PM
i, for one, am tired of generic blanket immunities of enemies. we have clickies and spells, why can't they each have their own set of clickies that they use to buff themselves? why cant i charm or finger the dq? b/c you said so? thats a poor way to institute fun as well. now, if she were to buff against, and i could dispel, then she buff again, et cetera, we get the same result as now, that i cant use my favorite spells, but there's a reason other than 'b/c we said so' or 'b/c we spent a lot of time making it a certain way and we want it played that way'. gh, well, maybe theyre all wearing db items, so ok, but im tired of half my spell list being utterly useless and im sure that tanks feel the same about their weapons. it cuts off their head, period. being pigeonholed is not a fun way to play the game either.

btw, back to OP, i dont like the enemies using vorpal, and ill tell you why. it levels a part of the playing field, which normally would be a good thing, but its one of the only parts we had to our advantage. if theyre going to get our weapon effects then i want their enlarged spell list and infinite sps. also their saves, hps, et cetera would be nice to.

Yes, let them buff to protect themsleves....and let us have a chance to debuff them too. Let some of them have vorpals......but if they all do then I'd better see a lot of vorpals in that end chest too!

And actually, I think vorpals are boring....there is a lot of other ways to make baddies challenging without instant kill. ( I would like to see a few Sorcs get FODed though :) ) (but baddies should be forced to use some kinda mana management too)

DSL
09-13-2007, 02:32 PM
That is my view on it. I don't think you guys are wrong. I see your points of view, but I am trying to use logic to explain why I think I have a point and why I don't have an issue with it in DDO. Let's not even start me up on the super pimped mobs. Because of that and my own reasoning, I don't have a problem with it. Thanks for putting up with me.

Frankly, it can be rationalized either way, and ultimately your interpretation is not without merit, but the larger issue to consider is what game impact this would have. Deathward is already extremely powerful, essentially being a readily-available 4th level spell that gives complete immunity to nearly an entire spell school. To extend this to Vorpal weapons is exacerbating things.

Considering that "Vorpal" is a +5 modifier effect, it should be quite powerful, and negating its effects for an otherwise vulnerable creature should probably be more difficult than through a simple 4th level spell, or even fortification effects (though these usually have their own balancing trade-off). Ultimately, if it is too easy to resist, then it's not much fun for a player to use one, and it is likewise not sufficiently feared when in the hands of NPCs.

That this argument has gone on over 5 pages here, and more in past threads, is evidence that this matter is far from being clear, and WOTC "official rulings" aside, ultimately each DM has to decide for themselves how they are going to handle Vorpal weapons. If too many things are immune, then the DM is taking away the fun from the player who has (presumably) given something up for it. In DDO, there is usually less of a trade-off in using one (and in aquiring it), and especially given their frequency here, the choice they've made is not entirely unreasonable, provided that the use of Deathblocking by NPCs does not become ubiquitous.

Talon_Moonshadow
09-13-2007, 02:35 PM
[Rated D for Decapitated]

I'm perfectly fine with the vorpal effect killing deathwarded players. As long as the vorpal animation gets a lot better. Blue??? Meh. I want to see a party member's head (with pretty helmet) roll up to my clerics feet when it happens. Then it would be totally worth it.

Once the mobs are clear, my cleric can have a talk with said tank's head "Do you really think you should roll on the cleric's mace next time we win the raid?"

True......if I'm gonna be killed instantly, I want to see my head roll on the ground first........at least I would be laughing instead of cursing the Devs.

Talon_Moonshadow
09-13-2007, 02:56 PM
What cleric doesn't have deathward loaded at all times?

The ones I tried Shadow King on elite with the first three times. :(

DSL
09-13-2007, 03:24 PM
Not according to the rules there aren't. In for a penny, in for a pound. Either you open the door to all sorts of "reasonable" interpretations, or you play the rules as written.

You know where I stand. ;)

First, are you in fact seriously suggesting that reason and logic should take a back seat to the rules as written?

Second, this is in fact a part of the rules. Read the DMG description for "Vorpal", where it clearly states: "The DM may have to make judgement calls about this sword's effect" Allowing defenses against it, limiting it's usefulness against significantly larger creatures, etc. all in fact fall into the category of "judgement calls". So, if your DM decides that Fortification should prevent decapitation from this, and thus making a judgement call (whether it is a good call or not), then he is in fact following the rules.

Grettir
09-13-2007, 03:44 PM
First, are you in fact seriously suggesting that reason and logic should take a back seat to the rules as written?

Second, this is in fact a part of the rules. Read the DMG description for "Vorpal", where it clearly states: "The DM may have to make judgement calls about this sword's effect" Allowing defenses against it, limiting it's usefulness against significantly larger creatures, etc. all in fact fall into the category of "judgement calls". So, if your DM decides that Fortification should prevent decapitation from this, and thus making a judgement call (whether it is a good call or not), then he is in fact following the rules.

Our DM back in the early 80's decided there would be a rare item, a "Collar of Stiffness" that would negate vorpal effects. This was given to a Boss mob who turned out to be very tough to take down.

Of course in DDO, that Boss would be killed about a hundred times a day (at least) . . . . making the item as rare as vorpals, disruptors, banishers, etc . . .

And if our characters back then got a vorpal it was from a mob that was using it against us. I think it's about time we could get vorpaled.

Dinatius
09-13-2007, 05:39 PM
You really think people go back and check their combat logs to see what they rolled when the beholder or mind flayer fries them?

Actually... I do... For one, I like to see whether it was a 1, or if I need to up my saves more (depending on the toon... some toons i know have cruddy saves ;) )

Plus, Turbine gave us this nice little die on the screen, and if a beholder fries me and I roll a 1, that will be the last roll showing, along with what I 1'ed against. Works like a charm.

Wulf_Ratbane
09-13-2007, 05:43 PM
First, are you in fact seriously suggesting that reason and logic should take a back seat to the rules as written?

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying.

Are you in fact seriously suggesting that you prefer to play in a campaign where the DM capriciously ignores clearly written rules to substitute his own judgement for that of the designers and playtesters?

That **** went out with 1e.

Jaysensen
09-13-2007, 05:45 PM
Well, Insane AC doesn't help you in the game anyhow, at least the insane AC we can achieve relative to the hitting ability of mobs. However, if it were insane relative to the mob's ability to hit us, then yes, it would protect you, as the crit wouldn't be comfirmed.

I believe the standing argument for deathward working against vorpal is that death spells are used to create a vorpal blade. At least that was what I read in these forums previously.

AC DOES work. You just need to get really near to 60. Over 60 AC is very good... just difficult to get to.

DSL
09-13-2007, 05:52 PM
Yes, that's exactly what I am saying.

Are you in fact seriously suggesting that you prefer to play in a campaign where the DM capriciously ignores clearly written rules to substitute his own judgement for that of the designers and playtesters?

That **** went out with 1e.

Mostly, yes, except for the "capriciously" part. That's where "reason and logic" come into play. I trust the DM's I play under more than the WOTC playtesting process, which has always struck me as ineffective. In fact, I would be very wary of a DM who prefers a slavish devotion to the printed rules. The question is, if you don't trust your DM, why do you play under him?

ChaosTheEternal
09-13-2007, 05:56 PM
Magic items, especially items as powerful as vorpal, are difficult and time consuming to make, not to mention expensive.Yes, they have a cost.

Creating a Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingMagicWeapons). All it takes is what it normally takes to make a Masterwork weapon and the right spells prepared, which are defined as part of the magic item itself. Any class that prepares spells merely have to have them prepared each day they work on the weapon, a sorcerer or bard just have to know the spell. Working on the weapon expends those uses.

No side quests are required, just some available downtime for the caster to craft a masterwork weapon. Key point:

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item.All they need is the spells, if any, prepared or known, nothing else.


If your DM allows this by saying ," Well, just spend the money and the XP and we will say you did it in between adventures", you're lucky.If your DM allows this, you need to find a new DM. A "simple" +1 Vorpal costs the creator:
36,000 gp
2,880 XP
72 8-hour days forging it
A +5 Vorpal has an even higher cost:
100,000 gp
8,000 XP
200 8-hour days forging it
It is something they can work on between adventures, but unless their characters take a few months to over half a year break between adventures, and they're loaded, you're not going to see a wizard toting new magic weapons/gear for the party.


And dont forget the spells enchant weapon and permanancy. Permanancy requires XP.
I don't know where you are reading that from. Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) and Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm) are not required spells for crafting weapons. The enhancement bonus does not require any spells at all, and working with the weapon is what makes them "permanent". And even if Permanency were required (which, again, it's not), it wouldn't have an XP cost, as the description for "Creating a Magic Weapon" states (again) that the spells merely need to be prepared, they are not "cast", but they are considered "used" when the character works on the weapon for the day.

Brother_Tuck
09-13-2007, 06:38 PM
OK I might be new to the discussion (and skipped a few pages) but being a LONG time DnD player, the Vorpal weapon as implemented by DDO bothers me.

Currently, we can vorpal any monster in the game (assuming it does not have deathward/deathblock) and I take issue with this. I find it VERY questionable how a halfling melee type with his mighty vorpal can reach a giants head. Think back to our old Giant Caves days when we fought lots of giants that could get vorpaled. NO self respecting DM would ever have allowed this. Simply put if you cant reach their head you can not vorpal it. Any monster that is Large or bigger should not be able to be vorpaled - PERIOD. EVEN if the giant were lying prone on the ground (think greater command here) their neck would still be gigantic to get through and more than likely the sword would either get stuck or not complete the beheading.

I did discuss with with the "Rules Guy" from WOTC and he agreed that in his campaigns he would not allow this BUT we play an MMO and if they want to implement a variant of the rules, I can live with it. I suggest everyone else just roll with it.

Gornin
09-14-2007, 07:33 AM
Yes, they have a cost.

Creating a Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingMagicWeapons). All it takes is what it normally takes to make a Masterwork weapon and the right spells prepared, which are defined as part of the magic item itself. Any class that prepares spells merely have to have them prepared each day they work on the weapon, a sorcerer or bard just have to know the spell. Working on the weapon expends those uses.

No side quests are required, just some available downtime for the caster to craft a masterwork weapon. Key point:
All they need is the spells, if any, prepared or known, nothing else.

If your DM allows this, you need to find a new DM. A "simple" +1 Vorpal costs the creator:
36,000 gp
2,880 XP
72 8-hour days forging it
A +5 Vorpal has an even higher cost:
100,000 gp
8,000 XP
200 8-hour days forging it
It is something they can work on between adventures, but unless their characters take a few months to over half a year break between adventures, and they're loaded, you're not going to see a wizard toting new magic weapons/gear for the party.


I don't know where you are reading that from. Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) and Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm) are not required spells for crafting weapons. The enhancement bonus does not require any spells at all, and working with the weapon is what makes them "permanent". And even if Permanency were required (which, again, it's not), it wouldn't have an XP cost, as the description for "Creating a Magic Weapon" states (again) that the spells merely need to be prepared, they are not "cast", but they are considered "used" when the character works on the weapon for the day.

Yea, the lovely new rules where they made making magic items "cheap" and easy, and took all of the reality, richness and wonder out of magic items. I still use the rules, but I use them as guidelines, as the DMG suggests. Instead of having to have a boatload of gold, I allow gathering the materials and finding out how to bind the magic to items through research and finding of tomes etc. That is what the XP cost and GP cost is taking place of. If the PC wants to do it that way, I'll let them, but my group prefers the other way, where they actually have to find the rare material, and proper rituals. This lowers the cost in GP, and allows them to earn some more XP to put toward the crafting of the item. And if no rutuals were involved and special processes, why does it take days to make the item? Like I said, the current rules just take all of it into account and streamlines/simplifies it. I hate it.

Enchant an item and permanancy are basically part of the crafting feats, thats why the XP cost is involved in crafting items.

I would love a new DM, unfortunately, no one else wants to do it, so I end being the DM all the time, because my regular group of well over 20 years prefers the way I do things and run a campaign. I would love to be able to just play for once.


But, back to the point of whether deathward should protect from vorpal, in PnP I say yes as to the fact that in the descriptor, a death magic is used. But, as you pointed out and I agreed, WotC said no, because it is a mass damage effect. I replied that Disintegrate should probably be the spell, not CoD, since DW does not affect Disintegrate, to create a vorpal. I am agreeing with you, I conceded the point. Sheesh. But I also said with the limits of coding and technology, and the Massive part of MMO, things like vorpals aren't as rare, it gives some balance to DDO. Do I wish the game was much more closer to PnP? Hell yea! But, I will tolerate what we have right now because it will lead to better things. I actually love the game, try not to metagame at all, and I like the people in my guild. I don't have to DM for once, and I have alot of fun, and that is why I play and stay.

Angelus_dead
02-02-2009, 01:54 AM
In general, "Monster got lucky, you die with no recourse" isn't very good gameplay.
Good point.