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Slapphappy
09-06-2007, 05:05 PM
I am building a wizard (currently lvl 4) with the intention of focusing on crowd control. My goal is that my spells will land as often as possible. I am learning that I don't really understand the way DDO does this too well. Could someone give me a quick overview of DC & saves and spell penetration & resistance? How do feats like spell pen, Grtr spell pen and spell focus figure in? How do spell penetration items like scepters work?

Thanks!

Locathus
09-06-2007, 05:37 PM
Saves:

Target must roll a d20 and add their appropriate save bonus (Fort, Reflex, Will). If the total is greater than or equal to the spell DC, the spell sticks. To calculate DC: 10 + (Int Modifier) + (Spell Level). You also add points for any feats or items that give you spell focus in that particular spell school. Feats and items stack with each other, but multiple items do not stack.

Spell Resistance:

Wizard rolls a d20 and adds their caster level. If the total is greater than or equal to the targets spell resistance, the spell sticks (although a separate save may still apply). The wizard adds points to the roll for spell penetration feats or for items. Again, feats and items stack with each other, but multiple items do not stack.

Note that each spell may or may not have a save, and may or may not be affected by spell resistance. As a general rule, spells that primarily deal damage (scorching ray, magic missile) are not affected by spell resistance. Whether or not a spell allows a save is always (?) given in the spell description. If both a save and spell resistance apply, you need to get through both to land the spell.

I hope that makes sense - if you have any further questions, feel free to post them. Welcome to the Wizard Forum!!
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Sybel
09-06-2007, 05:44 PM
To simplify it a bit for you: Spell Penetration item and feats are usefull for landing a lot of you crowd control spells like hold monster and flesh to stone, and whatnot. I would definetly pick up the two feats if i were you. As for spell focus feats, i wouldnt worry to much about them, but if you wanted to pick any up, go for enchantment, a good deal of the cc spells are from there. other than that just remember that web is your friend, and there are certain spells like symbol of pain, curse, enervation, etc. that will help you land your crowd control.

Slapphappy
09-06-2007, 08:08 PM
Okay, so this is what I am hearing... (and a few more questions)

DC overcomes saves. DC is (spell level + 10 + int modifier + spell focus feat) This has to be higher than (mob's saves + d20)

In addition, some mobs (like drow and some high level) have spell resistance. This means for a spell to land the casters must also have (level of caster + d20 + Spell pen feats + enhancements) greater than the spell resistance.

How close am I? (Don't be afraid to hurt my feelings.)

Question - Do spell penetration items (ex - scepter of spell penetration II)help with DC or only spell penetration?

Question - Spell desciptions list if spell has a save. Where can I find out if it is stopped by spell resistance?

Question - On the other side, do my characters have spell resistance? Is it worth investing in drow enhancements and items for this?

Question - Should I use my present abundance of dragon shards to trade out spell pen and greater spell pen until I am higher level (presently lvl 4)

Thanks for the help.

Oran_Lathor
09-06-2007, 09:46 PM
You are spot on now with respect to how DC and SR work.

Spell Penetration Items affect your spell penetration checks, but not your DCs. For example, your scepter of spell penetration II would give +2 to your spell pen rolls on level 2 and lower spells. Note that 'minor' spell pen items give +1 and 'greater' spell pen items give +3. You should also invest in spell focus items like, say, a +2 enchantment scepter. You can find these fairly easily on all high end reward lists, and can even get ones with more than one school on them (max two, outside of raid loot IE Stormreaver's Napkin).

Mousing over a spell should save whether it has a save or not. There may be a few rare exceptions, but I'm not sure of any off-hand.

Player characters (other than drow) do not get innate spell resistance. It can only be acquired by items. Even drow only get a base 11 SR, raisable via enhancements to, I believe 18. Generally speaking, neither SR items, nor drow SR are worth investing in. The reason for this is that mob caster levels are a little too high to make it effective. Of course, an SR 19 item is useful for running low level favor, but otherwise, wouldn't worry about it.

Finally, yes, I'd get rid of both the spell penetration feats and pick two of things along the lines of: mental toughness, extend, heighten (may wait on this till 6, 9, or 10), quicken, spell focus: enchantment, or improved mental toughness (not sure you can take IMT at 4th though.) The spell pen feats are nice to have on a CC build, but you won't be facing mobs with SR very often at all until level 9+, and even then you can likely get by with just one of them (though 2 isn't really overkill either.)

hope this is of some help
/peace

Locathus
09-07-2007, 05:34 AM
How close am I? (Don't be afraid to hurt my feelings.)

Question - Spell desciptions list if spell has a save. Where can I find out if it is stopped by spell resistance?

Question - On the other side, do my characters have spell resistance? Is it worth investing in drow enhancements and items for this?

Question - Should I use my present abundance of dragon shards to trade out spell pen and greater spell pen until I am higher level (presently lvl 4)

Thanks for the help.

I think you have the right idea on the first part.

I don't know of any official way to tell if a spell is affected by spell resistance. Most of us have just cast the spells often enough to figure out which is which. As a rule of thumb, if the spell's main effect is not to cause damage, it probably is affected by SR (which means most crowd control).

Probably, yes. They won't do you much good now, and you'd be better off with some additional spell points or other feats as mentioned by the last poster.

Take care.
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Slapphappy
09-07-2007, 08:35 AM
Thanks all for the responses and advice. Another question... If I want to focus of crowd control with this caster, what spells should I bring against enemies with a good will save. Web seems obvious, but what others? Should I bring a fort save spell? Which one?

Veers
09-07-2007, 11:03 AM
Mobs with good Will saves are Wizards and Clerics. Use Dex based spells like Web, or Fort based spells like Flesh to Stone and Finger of Death.

Mad_Bombardier
09-07-2007, 11:05 AM
Thanks all for the responses and advice. Another question... If I want to focus of crowd control with this caster, what spells should I bring against enemies with a good will save. Web seems obvious, but what others? Should I bring a fort save spell? Which one?If you are truly CC focused (say Enchantment spec'd) you won't need to differentiate based on Will save.

30 INT, SF: & GSF: Enchant, Enchantment Focus item, Heighten = DC 30 Will save. Not many mobs can regularly beat that.

Locathus
09-08-2007, 09:52 PM
If you run into mobs that are saving against your spells, you can also try things like solid fog - it doesn't paralyze mobs, but it does limit their effectiveness and can be a useful form of crowd control. Also, use spells where multiple saves can be forced - for example, if you cast the Disco Ball and something has a 30% chance of saving, you might not get as many mobs as you like. But, if you (or your party members) run the mobs back and forth a little, their chance of continuing to make saves is very low.
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