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sigtrent
09-06-2007, 02:51 PM
From Sigtrent's Build Request Thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=117232)

Build Name: Zergmeister
Author: Sigfried Trent
Requester: oZoro
Last Updated: 05/15/10

Key Words [Rogue, Assassin, THF, Zerg]

Objectives
The requester was bored and wanted something a bit wild. He didn't care for Rangers or Paladins and wanted a very aggressive and slightly crazy build. I went for the idea of a crazed zerging all out damage dealer that would pull far more agro than they probably should and abandoning most traditional wisdom for as much damage as possible, even if it was situational. So this is a build almost designed to fail in some ways, but for a strong player it could be a really fun challenge that actually can be very effective.

Design
At the time of the original the idea was to get big red numbers on every swing, some from two handed fighting, some from sneak attack. Another key was to simply move very quickly letting you zerg ahead even if the rest of the party wants to keep up. The original was human, but with all the THF bonuses warforged now get, it seemed good to make the switch. With rogue I was trying to max out sneak attack damage, Barbarian is in the mix purely for the speed boosts, and fighter is there just to round things out feat wise. Some attention was paid to survivability, but only when it didn't compromise the overall concept.

Sneak attack on a THF is a challenge. This build can pull agro like no ones business. As posters suggest one of the solutions to this is to keep on the move, dance around behind enemies to get the sneak attack via flanking rather than lack of agro. Workable if not optimal. Certainly working with an intimitank is ideal for this build to maximize its damage potential (although that works against the zerging idea). Cleave and Great Cleave play into all this. Both in the intim scenario and in the circle and strike mode, cleave gives you a way to throw those big red numbers at multiple targets. They are useless in single target DPS but in some cases they can be a delightful amusement, kind of like a living fireball. Of course it only exacerbates the agro challenges and that plays to the overall idea of the build nicely. It also has its moments when combined with Assassin 2, partly making up for the advantages you would have gotten with TWF. One advantage you do have over most rogues is that fortified targets are not really a problem. Your DPS isn't so dependent on crits and sneak attack, nor is DR as debilitating to your DPS.

Traps are included, although you are not especially good at them, but some trap/lock is better than no trap/lock. Improved evasion helps deal with the fact that your reflex saves are not all that stellar. Half damage and a pretty hefty HP pool help make up the edge you loose to dex heavy rogues. UMD was ignored after some consideration but its certainly easy to mod the build to include it. Stealth was included partly just because it could be, it's kind of an extra feature although it plays against type for the build concept somewhat and it plays into assassin 2 (even if this builds DC for that is pretty limited).

Compared to a THF barbarian, you are not really in the same league. They are stronger and tougher and do better non sneak damage. But with speed boost and sneak attack and such, this could do more damage on any given hit and there is some fun to be had there. You also have a wider range of defenses and a little more ability for solo questing and the like.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Chaotic Good Warforged Male
(1 Fighter \ 1 Barbarian \ 18 Rogue)
Hit Points: 302
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 12
Will: 4

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 23
Dexterity 12 12
Constitution 18 20
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 6 6
Charisma 6 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 5 11
Bluff -2 4
Concentration 4 5
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device 4 23
Haggle -2 -2
Heal -2 -2
Hide 5 32
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump 8 29
Listen -2 -2
Move Silently 4 31
Open Lock 5 24
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 4 23
Spot 2 22
Swim 4 6
Tumble 2 2
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)


Level 5 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 13 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 17 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 19 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude I
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude II
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude III


Play
I'd advise caution but that's not the point of this build, so go crazy! Kill them before they kill you! Keep moving and keep swinging. I will say that you should keep a good supply or repair potions. Its no fun making clerics pull their hair out in despair if you die, so keep yourself alive.

Variations
Including UMD is probably the most obvious minor modification. It would take a lot of effort to make it work with 6 charisma, but its certainly possible and only requires a bit of sacrifice skill wise.

Ozoro
09-07-2007, 09:28 AM
YES! death on legs! be that my own death or mob death! at this point, who really cares? looks cool. I look forward to leveling him. The Ozmeister aproves!

cheers! Oz

Roguewiz
09-07-2007, 10:01 AM
I've tried a similiar build. Fun to play, dies alot. Glancing blows as a strength based Rogue = Mmmm...Dirt!

Ozoro
09-07-2007, 10:10 AM
yeah, the 230 hitpoints concerned me, alot. all my toons have atleast 300. any way i can boost this cept GFL items?

Rentz
09-07-2007, 10:51 AM
stoneskin scrolls are only a 32 umd....buy stacks and stacks of'em. :P

also, i'd ditch hide and move silently and dump those points into bluff and diplomacy and actually use them.

you're going to have mega agro with the 2hander and will rarely get a sneak attack off unless you employ bluff.

a greataxe paralyzer (for the speed and reach) would be a great investment as well.

i think the right kind of player (one who is comfortable using clickies and tactical skills like bluff/diplomacy) could make this work.

alternatively, try a dwarf configuration and drop focus slashing in favor of axe enhancements. might squeeze a bit more hp/to-hit/dmg out of that with little loss elsewhere. would have to crunch numbers.

sigtrent
09-07-2007, 11:27 AM
My own rogue, who has less HP but admitidly doesn't use his two handers all that often tends to do a lot of circling the monsters when he pulls to much agro. Often they get cought up on one another.

But you could definately change the build a but for more HP, although it takes some doing. You would have to lower str or int/dex to get some more con. Or you could drop weapon focus slash for another toughness. I'm not sure it would make a big difference.

Anyhow, it's a crazy character. Bluff/diplomacy might work. I havn't actualy worked with them at decent levels myslef so I don't know how effective they are or at what scores they work. I included bluff since it was more focused on the damage side and if you wanted to take way of the assassin sometime down the road. I couldn't work it in this version wtihout selling the character focus short.

Rentz
09-07-2007, 11:49 AM
My own rogue, who has less HP but admitidly doesn't use his two handers all that often tends to do a lot of circling the monsters when he pulls to much agro. Often they get cought up on one another.

But you could definately change the build a but for more HP, although it takes some doing. You would have to lower str or int/dex to get some more con. Or you could drop weapon focus slash for another toughness. I'm not sure it would make a big difference.

Anyhow, it's a crazy character. Bluff/diplomacy might work. I havn't actualy worked with them at decent levels myslef so I don't know how effective they are or at what scores they work. I included bluff since it was more focused on the damage side and if you wanted to take way of the assassin sometime down the road. I couldn't work it in this version wtihout selling the character focus short.

for HP i was thinking the dwarven toughness line of enhancements would offer a nice boost without having to modify stats much, if at all.

for bluff, i'm not sure how high it would have to be...but 16 ranks + 11 item + 2 charisma = 29 before grtr hero or anything else. i'm thinking low 30's should be sufficient to bluff your average melee mob. but i could be wrong-

Rameses
09-07-2007, 12:00 PM
I promise you 230 HP is not enuff hit points for Oz.

Aspenor
09-07-2007, 12:05 PM
I promise you 230 HP is not enuff hit points for Oz.

/signed

Roguewiz
09-07-2007, 12:37 PM
I promise you 230 HP is not enuff hit points for Oz.

As a Rogue with 219hp currently, I can attest to this.

Aspenor
09-07-2007, 12:42 PM
As a Rogue with 219hp currently, I can attest to this.

Our point is that even with 800 hit points Ozoro would die in 2 seconds.

Roguewiz
09-07-2007, 01:13 PM
Our point is that even with 800 hit points Ozoro would die in 2 seconds.

I'd give him 5 seconds. Surely the cleric is paying at least some attention ;)

Aspenor
09-07-2007, 01:35 PM
I'd give him 5 seconds. Surely the cleric is paying at least some attention ;)

You overestimate Ozoro's skill. N00bsauce!!! :rolleyes:

spifflove
09-07-2007, 01:40 PM
You probably wanted to take greater two handed fighting.

I would ditch thf line and go for the spring attack line. Do that and you can do fine on 150 hp.

Ozoro
09-07-2007, 01:55 PM
You overestimate Ozoro's skill. N00bsauce!!! :rolleyes:

who are you again? N00by McN00bface right?

Roguewiz
09-07-2007, 02:43 PM
You overestimate Ozoro's skill. N00bsauce!!! :rolleyes:

Pfft...Which skill are we talking about? Skill in pulling aggro, or skill in dying.

I know they go hand-in-hand, but come on? Surely even the lowest HP Rogue can get an extra 2 seconds of life by running the mobs past the Cleric and hitting diplomacy.

It's like feign death in EQ, but funnier. ;)

sigtrent
09-07-2007, 02:47 PM
You probably wanted to take greater two handed fighting.

I would ditch thf line and go for the spring attack line. Do that and you can do fine on 150 hp.

True! Its supposed to be Two Handed in the feat list and not Two Weapon.

I personly do not at all like spring attack, it does very little that is useful for 3feats. Running around all the time just isn't a good way to do heavy damage in DDO.

sigtrent
09-07-2007, 02:51 PM
for HP i was thinking the dwarven toughness line of enhancements would offer a nice boost without having to modify stats much, if at all.


I agree, a dwarven version would be more durable.. I was going for all out balls to the walls damage (without being a full barbarian) and human does that best due to the extra Str and the Versatitlity damage boost and bonus feat. Human also is making it so you need less int for that skill selection.

Dwarf would inevitably be more "well rounded" and one look at the build tells you It's anything but that. :D

spifflove
09-07-2007, 04:54 PM
True! Its supposed to be Two Handed in the feat list and not Two Weapon.

I personly do not at all like spring attack, it does very little that is useful for 3feats. Running around all the time just isn't a good way to do heavy damage in DDO.

It ensures that you are always getting your backstab bonus. That overides any benifity you might be getting from splash damage.

It also keeps your hide in one piece.

sigtrent
09-07-2007, 05:29 PM
It ensures that you are always getting your backstab bonus. That overides any benifity you might be getting from splash damage.


How pray tell does that work?

So far as I know backstab works like this...
1. If the creature is not agroed on you when you attack it, you get a sneak attack.
2. If the creature is currently "helpless" (aka held, stunned or stoned) you get a sneak attack reguardless of agro.

That's it. I don't see how running arround effects that at all.

spifflove
09-07-2007, 08:09 PM
How pray tell does that work?

So far as I know backstab works like this...
1. If the creature is not agroed on you when you attack it, you get a sneak attack.
2. If the creature is currently "helpless" (aka held, stunned or stoned) you get a sneak attack reguardless of agro.

That's it. I don't see how running arround effects that at all.

Well my paladin strength rogue took the spring attack line and it works like this:
1. wait for tank to get aggro or sneak and attack
2. as soon as u lose the big red numbers switch to the next target that is attacking the tank.
3. keep moving
4. lather, rinse, repeat.
5. hit mobs as they close in for a nice sneak attack
6. keep moving
7. lather, rinse, repeat.
8. Surrounded? Whirlwind attack.
9. Improved feint.

Extra speed synergy will work well on this build. Humans could also take least dragon mark of movement.

sigtrent
09-09-2007, 12:51 AM
Ahh, well I wouldn't say that guarantees you sneak attack but I see what you are getting at. I've always found I can do the same thing without actualy having to move around all that much. But I like tumbling and you can scoot just a little bit without getting the move penalty. The attack rate is just a lot slower moving though so I don't see it as worth while. TWF is a bit better since I think you get two swings on the move.

Mostly a question of style I suppose but in the end I feel spring attack just isn't much worth while since you can do the same thing tumbling wtihout spending two feats. I can see it if you want whirlwind or your a pure fighter. Lots of feats to burn.

Ozoro
09-09-2007, 05:05 PM
is the purpose of the barbarian level purely for 1 rage?

spifflove
09-12-2007, 06:42 PM
is the purpose of the barbarian level purely for 1 rage?


Extra speed is the best reason to go one barb.

Wizzly_Bear
10-01-2007, 09:28 AM
totally get where youwent with this build and looks fun for an experienced player, but i have a coment on the asides afterward. rogue should be mobile, and moving around def DOES increase sneak attack, IF you do it right. you also get sneak damage if you hit your enemy from behind, regardless of whether or not they are aggroed on you/helpless (the only way rogues are viable in pvp is run around your enemy in circles so as to hit them from behind for this damage).

Pellaeon
08-31-2009, 04:15 PM
is there a way to rebuild this with new updated lvl 20 cap?

purple_paladin
08-31-2009, 05:55 PM
add 2 rogue and 4 fighter
13rogue gives a second rogue special and immune to knockdown if you go acrobat, then fighter for the kensai? and two more feats

ArloOne
11-12-2009, 05:43 PM
That looks to be just what your looking for...try it out...whats great about DDO..if you dont like a build or its gimped....re roll!

Mr S's builds are solid in most cases, the toon should be effective and fun!