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View Full Version : Need "Easy" Normal" and "Hardcore" Modes



HumanJHawkins
09-06-2007, 01:34 PM
Ok... All of these posts from Dingo (where he gets support from at least a few people) have convinced me... We really have a lot of players with different goals.

The majority want both challenge and competition. And there is no such thing as competition without strict rules that everyone follows. So when someone suggests letting you reroll your toon without losing your XP for example, , all of the people who want this to be a competition start screaming.

Why? Because if you can make a sweet high level toon by respecing along the way, then my sweet high level toon that was made without respecing suddenly doesn't look impressive.

But there is a substantial minority (including Dingo for example) who are not interested in competitive play, and mess around in their own way... They want to be able to come on and say, "Today, I would like to play a 12th level Wizard", and then make one from scratch (or by respec), and start playing.

There is a way to satisfy both types of user... Make an "Easy" mode for people who just want to experiment or play around. But, put some sort of floaty above their head, or make them glow pink, or something like that so everyone knows that they are not real toons made uinder the normal rules. And, require that easy toons only group with easy, etc. So you cant have 3 tweaked out "easy mode" toons powerleveling a normal toon.

This way, the typical players who want challenge and competition can still be proud of their achievements in normal mode, but the ones who don't want to spend (or don't have) the time to develop toons normall, can still do their own thing without hurting anyone.

And having made this, (perhaps more importantly since I would love it, and I am the most important person in the world), there should be a hardcore mode where twinking would be impossible and death would hurt a LOT more than it does now.

Maybe for DDO 2.0?

M1A1
09-06-2007, 01:58 PM
There needs to be an area, only accesable to you, where you dont interact with others and you could make a character (however you like) and see how it works against ___________ (insert monster here). Maybe this is accesable offline? But then you would find what you like and go into the process of making it a live character.

Shadow_Flayer
09-06-2007, 02:02 PM
How about giving them their own server entirely?

Because 'Easy Mode' people handing Vorpals and unbound +2 tomes out to the rest of the world sounds like a game killer to me.

blakbyrd
09-06-2007, 02:04 PM
Not disagreeing with your post or opinion here. However to me the basic issue still stands, and it isnt so much competition. It's, what is D&D? Such suggestions as of late by Dingo, go against what D&D is and what it has been built on for 30 years. If DDO didn't carry the name and licesning of D&D, then I wouldnt really care, but it does and as such a certain amount of expectation comes along with that, which is brought up multiple times by Turbine that changes accur to bring the game back more inline with D&D. Dingo's suggestions would do exactly the opposite and draw DDO further away from D&D, which to me is a bad thing for the game and a bad thing for what DDO is supposed to be.

I'm not out for personal competition...never really cared. I build characters I like and enjoy and in many cases they are not superior to others, but they are what I enjoy. They are perfectly capable though, and they do their jobs as is expected. I'm here to play with people, not compete with them. I;m also here (as I expect there may be many others as well) partly because of the namesake of DDO and the expectations of such. We know the basic rules layout from which it was derived, we start out with a familiarity of the subject. Purposefully straying from the very rules the game exists from, in my view is a bad thing for this game (perfectly fine for most others). It's the only D&D option for MMO play out there, it was designed from and for that, and as such should not be intentionally pulled away from it's purpose and reason for licensing.

I could be wrong...that's just how I see it. But do you really think WotC would want to license their product to someone who wants to throw the very core purpose of the product out the window and make it into something that is not what they licensed? Granted some will argue the very fact that DDO isnt D&D, and in many ways it isn't. Whats important though is that Turbine does continue to make changes for the specific reason of getting more inline with the D&D rules...not away from them. What Dingo has been asking for is to simply turn DDO into just another MMO and no Dungeons & Dragons Online. We would begin straying so far away from being DDO that it's very namesake would be meaningless, unearned, badmouthed and potentially have the license revoked.

Cruzer
09-06-2007, 02:07 PM
Being able to turn your level 14 Human fighter into a level 12 human wizard by doing nothing but hitting a "respec" button is an awful idea. I'm not looking at it from a competitive point of view that I had to level my level 14 fighter AND level 14 sorc from scratch and you don't.

If you do that, you might as well just let people pick their starting XPs. So if you have a level 14 character, you can just choose race, class, distribute attribute points, then assign startin xp up to 1 million xp (or whatever the capped amount is).

Mercules
09-06-2007, 02:12 PM
There needs to be an area, only accesable to you, where you dont interact with others and you could make a character (however you like) and see how it works against ___________ (insert monster here). Maybe this is accesable offline? But then you would find what you like and go into the process of making it a live character.

That actually would be a nice option to test out a character build. The only difficulty I see with allowing it off line is that would put code on people's computers someone could pick apart and maybe come up with a way to bug out on the server end and exploit something to give their character a bonus. Even baring that, someone could pick apart the code and find out EXACT stats on spells, monsters, and all of Turbine's other little secrets. Guess what happens when the rules monger gets ahold of his fist Monster Manual. :)

Arlith
09-06-2007, 02:14 PM
Ok... All of these posts from Dingo (where he gets support from at least a few people) have convinced me... We really have a lot of players with different goals.

yada, yada, yada.....

And having made this, (perhaps more importantly since I would love it, and I am the most important person in the world), there should be a hardcore mode where twinking would be impossible and death would hurt a LOT more than it does now.

At first glance, I thought, "Sure, why not!"

Only problem I see is two hours after "easy mode" when everyone has their 8 level 14 toons with free raid loot, 7 +3 tomes, and 45 equivilant "gestalt" levels, they will be screaming to know why they cant bring these toons to the next game level, after all the "Hard Work" of getting them to where they are.

But the hardcore mode.... hmmmmmmmm......

Gornin
09-06-2007, 02:17 PM
Not disagreeing with your post or opinion here. However to me the basic issue still stands, and it isnt so much competition. It's, what is D&D? Such suggestions as of late by Dingo, go against what D&D is and what it has been built on for 30 years. If DDO didn't carry the name and licesning of D&D, then I wouldnt really care, but it does and as such a certain amount of expectation comes along with that, which is brought up multiple times by Turbine that changes accur to bring the game back more inline with D&D. Dingo's suggestions would do exactly the opposite and draw DDO further away from D&D, which to me is a bad thing for the game and a bad thing for what DDO is supposed to be.

I'm not out for personal competition...never really cared. I build characters I like and enjoy and in many cases they are not superior to others, but they are what I enjoy. They are perfectly capable though, and they do their jobs as is expected. I'm here to play with people, not compete with them. I;m also here (as I expect there may be many others as well) partly because of the namesake of DDO and the expectations of such. We know the basic rules layout from which it was derived, we start out with a familiarity of the subject. Purposefully straying from the very rules the game exists from, in my view is a bad thing for this game (perfectly fine for most others). It's the only D&D option for MMO play out there, it was designed from and for that, and as such should not be intentionally pulled away from it's purpose and reason for licensing.

I could be wrong...that's just how I see it. But do you really think WotC would want to license their product to someone who wants to throw the very core purpose of the product out the window and make it into something that is not what they licensed? Granted some will argue the very fact that DDO isnt D&D, and in many ways it isn't. Whats important though is that Turbine does continue to make changes for the specific reason of getting more inline with the D&D rules...not away from them. What Dingo has been asking for is to simply turn DDO into just another MMO and no Dungeons & Dragons Online. We would begin straying so far away from being DDO that it's very namesake would be meaningless, unearned, badmouthed and potentially have the license revoked.

HEAR, HEAR!!!!!!!

Shaamis
09-06-2007, 02:17 PM
Ok... All of these posts from Dingo (where he gets support from at least a few people) have convinced me... We really have a lot of players with different goals.

The majority want both challenge and competition. And there is no such thing as competition without strict rules that everyone follows. So when someone suggests letting you reroll your toon without losing your XP for example, , all of the people who want this to be a competition start screaming.

Why? Because if you can make a sweet high level toon by respecing along the way, then my sweet high level toon that was made without respecing suddenly doesn't look impressive.

But there is a substantial minority (including Dingo for example) who are not interested in competitive play, and mess around in their own way... They want to be able to come on and say, "Today, I would like to play a 12th level Wizard", and then make one from scratch (or by respec), and start playing.

There is a way to satisfy both types of user... Make an "Easy" mode for people who just want to experiment or play around. But, put some sort of floaty above their head, or make them glow pink, or something like that so everyone knows that they are not real toons made uinder the normal rules. And, require that easy toons only group with easy, etc. So you cant have 3 tweaked out "easy mode" toons powerleveling a normal toon.

This way, the typical players who want challenge and competition can still be proud of their achievements in normal mode, but the ones who don't want to spend (or don't have) the time to develop toons normall, can still do their own thing without hurting anyone.

And having made this, (perhaps more importantly since I would love it, and I am the most important person in the world), there should be a hardcore mode where twinking would be impossible and death would hurt a LOT more than it does now.

Maybe for DDO 2.0?

I think this is a nice idea, but you would have to segregate the Cupcake/Normal/Hardcore characters with limitations:

1) cannot group with, trade items, or cash with a differing "type" character, so pollution is avoided.

2) "Cupcake"s can get really good drops, and 5X more XP than "Normal"s, and "Hardcore"s can get 1/5th the XP of "Normal"s, with nery low chances of good drops.

These character "levels" would all still have the normal, hard, and elite versions of each quest, but the characters would be in an alternate reality, where you can talk to, and role-play with others of a different challenge level, but you can't get items/grouping/cash from them.

That would be a neat challenge, and a badge of station, being a capped hardcore character.

Mercules
09-06-2007, 02:21 PM
But the hardcore mode.... hmmmmmmmm......

Hmmmmmmmm... indeed.

No Rez shrines, just rest ones.
Toned down enhancements.
Raise the ML on all items by several levels. Say +1 is ML 3, +2 items ML 5-6, +3 ML 8, and so forth. So +1 Flaming Pure Good is a level 8 item, not level 4.
Limited extendibles like wands/scrolls/potions, hand these out for collectibles instead of being easily purchased.

I'd love it.

Dharma
09-06-2007, 02:32 PM
Rather than changing the game and being able to run this or that way which would cut the number of people you could group with....

For making an already easy game harder I would like to see a difficulty above elite that is "damn near impossible". Make it only +1 loot level but maybe +3-5 on the CR level of difficulty above elite.

Dirac
09-06-2007, 02:34 PM
I like where you're coming from, but I think I would be against it for the reason that it would take a huge amount of development time (I'm guessing). We need development on content much more acutely.

My idea to solve this (I've been playing with posting in detail, but not gotten around to it) is just spread out the Normal, Hard and Elite settings. There is no good reason they need to be so close to each other in difficulty. As we play, as the game develops, as we increase levels, the difference between those that play a little and those who play a lot increases. Why not make Normal easier and Elite harder? Why only one level separation per setting? And with this, we should be able to open any quest on any setting.

Instead of having "easy" characters that never interact, have what we have now. However, if you are an "elite" character, there is no reason you need to do quests on normal in the first place.

Dharma, I think this solves this issue as well. We don't really need a "harder" setting as much as we need elite to be harder.

Shaamis
09-06-2007, 02:47 PM
Maybe, witht eh extra servers just collecting dust, they could devote one server, a sixth, as a "Buttercup" server, and maybe another as a "Hardcore" Server.

Hafeal
09-06-2007, 02:55 PM
There needs to be an area, only accesable to you, where you dont interact with others and you could make a character (however you like) and see how it works against ___________ (insert monster here). Maybe this is accesable offline? But then you would find what you like and go into the process of making it a live character.

I really like this idea.

It seems to me, at the end of the day, the concept everyone is bantering about is time. Not everyone has huge amounts of time to devote to generating different character builds.

Personally, I don't have the time to run 8 different characters to 9th level, let alone 14th level, to figure out if I like how the character plays or to find out the character is nerfed, fatally flawed, or otherwise relatively unplayable - even though he was a superhero in pnp.

As people love to point out, DDO is not an exact replica of pnp D&D.

Thus, in my opinion, any option which would allow you to be creative in seeing how different character builds work is a worthwhile endeavor and it would help make the game more accessible.

Some people want to "test run" a build. Some people will read the numbers and it "clicks" for them to see what combinations work.

To me, this suggestion is a good start to save and maximize the most valuable commodity you own, your time.

Sojourner
09-06-2007, 02:58 PM
"Easy Mode" - Sounds like an interesting idea for a game to implement. But, probably something that should be done right from the start. Not sure I would want to see any developer hours spent trying to fit that into DDO.


"Hardcore Mode" - Especially things like Mercules listed - Is probably how the game should have started to begin with. We're really only a couple steps away from "easy" mode as is it.


I think the fact that DDO is currently much closer to "easy" than it is to "hard" is one of the big things driving the permadeath guilds lately. After beating a game, what is left other than to beat it on a harder (permadeath) setting.


.

Dirac
09-06-2007, 02:59 PM
There needs to be an area, only accesable to you, where you dont interact with others and you could make a character (however you like) and see how it works against ___________ (insert monster here). Maybe this is accesable offline? But then you would find what you like and go into the process of making it a live character.

I, like many others here, think this would be really cool. However, it is pointless without equipment. And the equipment couldn't be transferable. Thus, you really have another world where any character can be created, with any set of equipment they want, and then they can do battle with any monster. That would seem to me to be on the scale of creating a new MOD.

As awesome as this would be, new and more content faster is more important.



No Rez shrines, just rest ones.
Toned down enhancements.
Raise the ML on all items by several levels. Say +1 is ML 3, +2 items ML 5-6, +3 ML 8, and so forth. So +1 Flaming Pure Good is a level 8 item, not level 4.
Limited extendibles like wands/scrolls/potions, hand these out for collectibles instead of being easily purchased.

I'm with Sojourner, this is probably how it should have started. I just don't see it happening now.

Dingo123
09-06-2007, 03:14 PM
Not disagreeing with your post or opinion here. However to me the basic issue still stands, and it isnt so much competition. It's, what is D&D? Such suggestions as of late by Dingo, go against what D&D is and what it has been built on for 30 years.



*SCREAM*


MOST of my ideas have been directly FROM D&D.

For Christ sake people.

In D&D you CAN keep your XP from past Characters. (Dungeon Masters Guide)

In D&D you CAN get items that provide you with XP. (Dungeon Masters Guide)

In D&D you CAN get "spells" that are free. (Complete Mage)

In D&D you CAN get lineage feats/abilities. (Unearthed Arcana)

In D&D you CAN get Gestalt Characters (Unearthed Arcana)

*PULLS OUT HAIR*

And these aren't just half cocked manufactured house rules my DM threw out one day. These are items/rules/abilities provided BY THE GAME DESIGNERS THEMSELVES IN SUPPLEMENTS/BOOKS THEY HAVE PUBLISHED.


So don't try to sit there and act like I'm ****ing all over some kind of hallowed D&D tradition.


Enough is ENOUGH.

Knock my ideas. Disagree with me. Call me every name in the book.

But don't LIE about what I say, and don't LIE about the source material JUST TO MAKE ME LOOK BAD. JUST SO YOU CAN ACT SUPERIOR!

Dharma
09-06-2007, 03:18 PM
Just wondering as I played AD&D for years and I never heard of being able to keep experience from other characters. Where does this rule exist?

Dingo123
09-06-2007, 03:21 PM
Just wondering as I played AD&D for years and I never heard of being able to keep experience from other characters. Where does this rule exist?


3.5 rules, DMG, check out page 41 I believe, maybe 42. If a character is unmade the player can rejoin the party with a new character that is, at maximum, the previous characters level minus one.

The purpose of it is party continuity, but the essence is still there. Assuming a portion of the previous characters experience (else it wouldn't be based on the previous characters experience).

isldur
09-06-2007, 03:59 PM
Ummm isn't D&D and AD&D a game that uses your imagination. Personally I played ad&d and do prefer the core rules for that, but pretty sure a DM could start a player at any level they wanted. It was always more fun to start at level 1, and work your way up but if everyone in your group was level 12 already, most DM wouldn't make you start at level 1.

That being said it doesn't translate to ddo because in ddo death is irrelevant (personally it would be nice to see a server where everytime you die you would lose 1 pt of constitution, thereby limiting deaths) and they really need players to go through the levels to learn to play a class correctly, especially for elite content.

I have personally played with a few people that seemed lost playing their classes at level 12 and up. Either they were power leveled by some friends or they had bought the account. Nice people but at level 14 I really shouldn't have to train you on stuff you should know by level 5. If I'm playing my lowbies, fine have no problem helping.


So no free xp and no easy button, AD&D,D&D, and DDO were meant to be played with a group soloing was added mostly for video game aspect. Some rules must be changed or adjusted to make the game work as a video game.

Instead of all this talk of sweeping changes to the game (DDO), really we should be yelling for fixes of the broken parts of the game. There are plenty of bugs that need attention, missing rolls on arrows and bolts are of major concern for my ranger, and have been for a long time yet seems no fix is insight. And don't get me started about stormcleave, it use to be one of my favorite quests, now it bugs so much its practically worthless.

Gornin
09-06-2007, 04:00 PM
*SCREAM*


MOST of my ideas have been directly FROM D&D.

For Christ sake people.

In D&D you CAN keep your XP from past Characters. (Dungeon Masters Guide)

In D&D you CAN get items that provide you with XP. (Dungeon Masters Guide)

In D&D you CAN get "spells" that are free. (Complete Mage)

In D&D you CAN get lineage feats/abilities. (Unearthed Arcana)

In D&D you CAN get Gestalt Characters (Unearthed Arcana)

*PULLS OUT HAIR*

And these aren't just half cocked manufactured house rules my DM threw out one day. These are items/rules/abilities provided BY THE GAME DESIGNERS THEMSELVES IN SUPPLEMENTS/BOOKS THEY HAVE PUBLISHED.


So don't try to sit there and act like I'm ****ing all over some kind of hallowed D&D tradition.


Enough is ENOUGH.

Knock my ideas. Disagree with me. Call me every name in the book.

But don't LIE about what I say, and don't LIE about the source material JUST TO MAKE ME LOOK BAD. JUST SO YOU CAN ACT SUPERIOR!

No one that I can see has called you a liar Dingo, but maybe I missed one, so I could be wrong. What we are trying to say is that the options you want are rare occurances in D&D, and your suggestions would make them common.

On the rare occasions one of my players says he is not happy with the way his character is headed or new info comes out, I would rather let him respec the PC a little bit than reroll. I can't remember the last time one of my group asked for that. I usually let them because I know I can trust them and I want them to have fun acting out their part in my story lines. (Yes, I am always the DM for some reason). Personally, each character is different and has its own back ground and is unique in how they gain XP. Maybe in an MMO this doesn't quite apply, but I think it evades the spirit of the game. That is why I don't agree with your suggestion here. Not that it is wrong or inaccurate, just not in the spirit of the game where every PC is unique.

Free xp - again rare, almost unique since they removed many of the tomes and manuals form the normal magic item lists. I remember the manual of puissant skill at arms and the libram of silver magic also, but now along with the book of vile darkness and the book of exalted deeds are artifacts - deck of many things too. (One of my all time faves to use on higher level campaigns). Remember, even in the old books, they were only usable once on a character.

The theme is similiar on most of your suggestions. I don't think that they are right for this MMO. I want the developers to try and be as close to the rules and spirit of D&D as possible. This is a dream come true for many of us. I can't wait until they DNI for games like this.


I apologize if I have offended you in any previous post I have made. It was never my intent, even though I don't like being compared to sheep ( herd mentality, etc.). I am trying to be constructive and instructive as to why many of us do not agree with your suggestions.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Arlith
09-06-2007, 04:05 PM
*SCREAM*


MOST of my ideas have been directly FROM D&D.

In D&D you CAN keep your XP from past Characters. (Dungeon Masters Guide)
In D&D you CAN get items that provide you with XP. (Dungeon Masters Guide)
In D&D you CAN get "spells" that are free. (Complete Mage)
In D&D you CAN get lineage feats/abilities. (Unearthed Arcana)
In D&D you CAN get Gestalt Characters (Unearthed Arcana)

And these aren't just half cocked manufactured house rules my DM threw out one day. These are items/rules/abilities provided BY THE GAME DESIGNERS THEMSELVES IN SUPPLEMENTS/BOOKS THEY HAVE PUBLISHED.


Maybe. I am not doubting you, I just have not played PnP in some time. But PnP has one thing that DDO does not. The DM. The DM provides balance. For example, in a PnP group I was in once we found a Deck of Many Things. I pull a card and it was something like "get out of any situation once" type of thing. Cool! I have a get out of jail free card, so I pull again. Another get out of jail free card. Pull again, get a level. Pull again get out of jail free! Ended up I gained a psionic ability, 5 levels and a few more odds and ends. COOL!!! I was sitting on top of the world, and was 5 levels above the rest of the crew. The next time we got together the DM had worked out a scenario that eventually had me losing 4 of those 5 levels and a few of the odds and ends. ****ed me off to no end!!! BUT, it brought my character back in line with the rest of the group. After I got over being ****ed, I had to admit it was the right thing to do. I had a better time because of it.

The point is, the DM provides balance to the game. Regardless of the rules the DM can say, "Nope, not gonna happen." You can argue until you are blue in the face, but if a DM doesn't want to change his/her mind, he/she just won't. You can either shut up and play, or pick up your dice and move along.

Here there is no DM to moderate every adventure, every party, heck every character to say, "Yep you can do that, nope you can't" or, "You're a Paladin in full plate holding a greatsword and a shield, no you are not an evasion build!" (sorry couldn't resist). Turbine has to provide balance without that "constant presence." The rules have to be the rules because there is no DM to say, "enough". So far they have done a good job providing that balance (/golfclap). Not always popular, but in the end when the tempers cool, most gamers I know agree.

I do not disagree with your ideas because they are not "DnD" but because I believe they bring imbalance to the game, open unforseen pathways for abuse, or start the game down a path to mediocrity (a fate worse than death).

And I disagree with your tactics, because you seem to be throwing out ideas one after the other that are certain to raise controversy. Not necessarily a bad thing, but so many grouped in such a short amount of time make it appear you are more interested in the controversy than the ideas. This type of behavior is certain to have people ignoring the ideas and questioning the intent of the person behind them. You have to have figured that out by now. For me that is confirmation that you care less for the ideas than the discord they bring about.

isldur
09-06-2007, 04:19 PM
Nicely put arlith.