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Varis
09-06-2007, 05:11 AM
Something I came up with and wonder if anyone has experience with a smiliar build.

The breakdown I'm sure has been done before... 10 rogue / 4 fighter

race: elf (32pts)
base stats:

14 str
20 dex (main stat for this build)
10 con
14 int
8 wis
8 cha

Feats:(in order, progression is R,F,R,F,F,F,Rx8)
dodge, weapon finesse, weapon focus: rapier, combat expertise, weapon spec: rapier, toughness, skill focus: umd, improved crit: rapier

Enhancements: elven dex2, elven attack2, elven damage2, elven resistance3, rogue dex 3, rogue attack speed boost4, fighter toughness2, skill boost 2, disable1, search1

now, I DO have very good gear saved up

DEX (20base+3level+3rogue+2elven+2tome+6item) 36

so let's figure AC based on the **** I have

base 10
+ 6 white dragon robe
+ 13 dex
+ 5 cloak of protection
+ 3 seal of earth/barkskin potion
+ 1 dodge
+ 5 combat expertise
+ 2 chaos guard
+ 7 mith heavy shield
----
52 AC
(until he is high enough wear the dragon robe, he will use a rr: elf +5 mith chain shirt)


for attacks:
BAB 11
+ 13 dex
+ 5 weapon
+ 1 focus
+ 2 elven attack
---
+32 to hit
-5 combat expertise
------
+27+27+32+37

HP: 247
(20heroic+60rogue+40fighter+56con+10dragon+30great er false life+16toughness+15fighter toughness)

saves: (+4 resist item, 18con,36dex,14wis)
fort +15 (deathblock)
ref +25 (imp. evasion)
will +10 (+15 vs enchantment)


skills: without boosts or buffs
dex 36 +13
Int 22 +6
items +13 to skills
+5 thief tools

Disable device 42
search 42
open lock 47
UMD 25
the rest is decent but not important to me




Now, I'm sure you are all aware how much buffs can add to this. I'm sure I can scroll a greater heroism, recitation perhaps and bring those numbers up a lot.
... my crappy saves could really use a GH lol.

anyways, question is, are those skills enough for most content on elite? (sans cabal trap)

Will that AC work ok or do I depend on displacement and buffs to get it near 60?

I know I hit like my grandma but is the bonus to hit high enough for top end elite? (I depend on puncturing, vorpal, banishing, disruption, etc on killing power)

I can't intimidate but will my melee with sneak attack damage draw aggro fast?

How much does uncanny dodge add to my AC?


So yeah, please give your input or point out mistakes I made and how I could improve on this.

Aspenor
09-06-2007, 09:23 AM
You're probably going to blow a few traps with a 42 disable score on elite.

Why bother with the fighter levels? Sure sure a few more feats, but high level rogues gain so many special abilities that are hard to pass up. You're not using your fighter levels to use armor mastery, so it's only giving you the feats, proficiencies, and hit points.

Additionally by purely maxing dexterity you are cutting yourself a tad short on charisma and/or wisdom. Rogues are a classic example of a class that should not be mix/maxed, and sacrificing spot skill and UMD points for extra strength and dex might not be a good idea (just my opinion, you might want a "combat" rogue and not as much a "skills" rogue). I started with 18 dex on a drow, and have not regretted it.

teddok
09-06-2007, 09:35 AM
How did you get a +7 shield

dragnmoon
09-06-2007, 09:39 AM
You're probably going to blow a few traps with a 42 disable score on elite.


42 Is more then Enough. Assuming he did not count +5 Tools with that.. If he did...then yeah he may have problems.

Aspenor
09-06-2007, 09:40 AM
42 Is more then Enough. Assuming he did not count +5 Tools with that.. If he did...then yeah he may have problems.

I am assuming several things with my statement:
1. He will run Foundation of Discord at some point in the future
2. Mod 5 will have some nasty trap DCs because the devs seem to get a kick out of it. :cool:

Then again, I haven't been able to test the waters on the disable score markers. I don't use traps enhancements and I still disable on 1s everywhere except the big Cabal for One trap. Chalk up 1 point for rogues with 18 base intelligence....

Aeneas
09-06-2007, 09:46 AM
that white dragon robe is a huge waste. Why bother working for it, and repairing it constantly if you're just going to blow an inventory spot on a +5 prot cloak for one extra AC?

dragnmoon
09-06-2007, 09:54 AM
I am assuming several things with my statement:
1. He will run Foundation of Discord at some point in the future
2. Mod 5 will have some nasty trap DCs because the devs seem to get a kick out of it. :cool:

Then again, I haven't been able to test the waters on the disable score markers. I don't use traps enhancements and I still disable on 1s everywhere except the big Cabal for One trap. Chalk up 1 point for rogues with 18 base intelligence....

I can get my Disable Traps up to 39 with Items Before +5 Tools, And I Have no problems, even when rolling 1. I have been telling people for a long time (Not saying you did this) that adding Enhancements and Feats to DD is not needed with good items.

That said.. Can not say to Mod 5.
And same here... Can not even find the Cabal trap to disable it.. But not willing to spec a Rogue just for 1 trap.

dragnmoon
09-06-2007, 09:58 AM
that white dragon robe is a huge waste. Why bother working for it, and repairing it constantly if you're just going to blow an inventory spot on a +5 prot cloak for one extra AC?

For me the reason I want the White Robe for my Rogue is it opens up 2 slots for me that I can use other things.

Repair is going down to 5 relics on Mod 5.. Still Think 5 is stupid... Should require 0. I hate forced Grinding.

Varis
09-06-2007, 10:04 AM
please remember that 42 is base, you can add +4 for greater heroism and another +3 for boost.

so a 49 is easy to get, not counting rabbit gloves.

I get the impression my skills are borderline, which is fine to me. I did not make this guy a trap monkey heh.

dragnmoon
09-06-2007, 10:43 AM
please remember that 42 is base, you can add +4 for greater heroism and another +3 for boost.

so a 49 is easy to get, not counting rabbit gloves.

I get the impression my skills are borderline, which is fine to me. I did not make this guy a trap monkey heh.

Unless you want to Spec for 1 trap..Your Skills are more then enough.

By the way you counting Tools in your 42 Base?

Varis
09-06-2007, 10:57 AM
yeah it's counting tools (17ranks+13item+6 int+1enhancement = only 37) but with buffs I can still get it to 50 so I think I can adjust.


The real question is though how will that stand up in combat? I'm sure I can pull aggro (or just do awesome dps heh) but the build has to withstand a few elite trolls.

The reason I am maxing my dex is to get a good to hit bonus and higher armor class. Dragon robe + dex = 19AC vs. mith chain shirt + fighter armor mastery = 16AC... and I figured it can keep going up as I level up without ever having to worry about max dex restrictions.

Roguewiz
09-06-2007, 10:57 AM
How did you get a +7 shield

It isn't a +7 Mithril Shield, it is the AC gained from using a +5 Heavy Shield...his bad for listing it like that ;)

Ironforge_Clan
09-06-2007, 11:02 AM
How did you get a +7 shield

The +7 is due to the +2 the shield adds to AC and the +5 magical bonus.

Varis
09-06-2007, 11:43 AM
It isn't a +7 Mithril Shield, it is the AC gained from using a +5 Heavy Shield...his bad for listing it like that ;)

well I figured of those that can't make that connection, I will think twice to take advice on armor class =)

Vengenance
09-06-2007, 01:22 PM
I also don't understand the reason of taking four levels of fighter, at least not with a dex build. You end up losing critical strike and 2D6 sneak attack damage. Your skills get decimated by taking the fighter levels and I don't quite understand what you get in return, a couple of weapon focus feats. By going elf you already get the bonuses to attack and damage with a rapier, with the insanely high dex you'll have your to hit will be high enough to hit anything in the game (my rogue has a 34 dex w/weapon finesse and I don't have trouble hitting anything). The only thing that it seems you get are fewer skill points a lower over-all UMD than most other rogues, less sneak attack damage than other rogues, in-ability to use Cure Serious Wands w/o failure, and no critical strike. In all seriousness it looks like a gimped build to me.

Aspenor
09-06-2007, 02:13 PM
I basically agree with Ven. Four fighter levels and all you end up with out of the deal is a few extra hit points, and +2 to hit. You won't need the bonuses to-hit of the weapon focus and specialization feats. You lose 2d6 damage on sneak attacks, crippling strike, and a few points of UMD. Plus the 4 fighter levels will make it somewhat more difficult to keep as many skills maxxed as you might want to have.

One level in ranger earns weapon proficiencies, wand usage of cures, energy resistances, and protections without a roll.

I just can't imagine 4 fighter levels to be that much of a benefit.

Roguewiz
09-06-2007, 02:27 PM
I also don't understand the reason of taking four levels of fighter, at least not with a dex build. You end up losing critical strike and 2D6 sneak attack damage. Your skills get decimated by taking the fighter levels and I don't quite understand what you get in return, a couple of weapon focus feats. By going elf you already get the bonuses to attack and damage with a rapier, with the insanely high dex you'll have your to hit will be high enough to hit anything in the game (my rogue has a 34 dex w/weapon finesse and I don't have trouble hitting anything). The only thing that it seems you get are fewer skill points a lower over-all UMD than most other rogues, less sneak attack damage than other rogues, in-ability to use Cure Serious Wands w/o failure, and no critical strike. In all seriousness it looks like a gimped build to me.

1st: A rogue w/o Critical Strike is not gimped.

2nd: He can take fighter in the earlier levels to reduce the hit you take on skills. In all honesty: UMD, DD, OL, Search, Spot...are all that are required. You can easily make up the lost skills, to a point at least

3rd: 5d6 is more than adequate, and there are numerous builds which are able to function well without it.


My view on the build:
Now, is this a good build? Questionable to say the least. I personally wouldn't build a Rogue this way. The AC is good, but that is really all this build has going for it. The DPS is laughable compared to other Rogue builds and the HP is quite low. The point of taking Fighter levels like this in a Rogue is to make an offensive Rogue with good hp and alot of offensive feats. My bud put it best, "I'm not a Rogue, I'm an Improved Evasion Fighter."

Having such a high dex, and going sword and board, is wasting the offensive potential you could have if you went the Two-Weapon progression instead.

Here is what I am doing with my Drow Rogue/Fighter type:

Take Rogue at: 1st, 3rd-6th, 9th, 10th-12th
Take Fighter at: 2nd, 9th, 13th-14th

1st: Skill Focus-UMD
2nd: Fighter Bonus - Weapon Finesse (BAB 1)
3rd: Two-Weapon Fighting
6th: Weapon Focus - Piercing
9th: Power Attack
9th: Figher Bonus - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (BAB 6 and must have 17 Dex)
12th: Improved Critical - Piercing (9 BAB at this level)
14th: Fighter Bonus - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (11 BAB and must have 17 Dex)

Like I said though, this is what I am doing ;)
** I'll post it later. It will be Relixandria Thunderwhisper in my sig.

Varis
09-06-2007, 02:45 PM
there is no way to do a AC build that is also a DPS build. You always end up with 40ish AC... that just does not cut it for tanking.

So yes, this build has **** DPS and moderate everything except AC.

What is has going for it?

Tank that has improved evasion, has UMD and can do traps.

Roguewiz
09-06-2007, 02:48 PM
there is no way to do a AC build that is also a DPS build. You always end up with 40ish AC... that just does not cut it for tanking.

So yes, this build has **** DPS and moderate everything except AC.

What is has going for it?

Tank that has improved evasion, has UMD and can do traps.

234 HP isn't tank HP
52 AC is tank AC

Half Tank, Half Squishy...Sounds like a Ranger in Everquest! :D

daniel7
09-07-2007, 09:23 PM
Hey Roa. Yeah I dont see anything wrong with your build. I like reading rogue builds b/c they are so different from each other. My rogue has 3 levels of pally and only an ac of 42(this is unbuffed, and no raid loot). My low ac doesnt seem to matter, probably b/c of my high saves(cha is 24 and uncanny dodge for when I really need it). But as some of these guys were saying I would only take these fighter levels if you need the feats. Also the more rogue you have in you the lower you can have your int. If you havent made this build yet also put it up in the guild forum and you can always send me a tell and ask me any questions about rogues. Rogues and Paladins are the only classes I feel like I can give advice on. See you later.

Adept 11/3 rogue/paladin
Eternal 13 rogue
Vindicate 14 paladin
Venerate 13 cleric

daniel7
09-07-2007, 09:28 PM
Oh hey one or two more things I just thought about. Play with the stats as a drow too you might come out the same or you might come out a little better. The other thing is that you can drop your int one point and send over an int tome at level one. Start with a 13 instead of 14. You will notice that at level 1 rogue you get a ton of skill points. More then you need. So you send over a +1 tome and from level 2 and up you will get the same amount of skill points.

A_Sheep
09-07-2007, 09:43 PM
Just a thought...

If you could find 2 feats to get rid of (Skill Focus: UMD and Dodge maybe), you could add least and lesser mark of shadow, which would give you 3 displacements (5 with enhancements) per day. If you took 1 level of wizard, then you could extend them, too.

Just a thought.