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Dingo123
09-06-2007, 03:59 AM
I'd like to see us keep a portion of our XP from deleted characters.

For example, if I delete a level 5 a percentage4 of that XP would remain in the slot that I just deleted, granted to the next character I create in that slot.

Trivilus
09-06-2007, 04:11 AM
You really need to completely think about something all the way thru before you post a suggestion.

You said in a prior post of yours that everyone should look from all angles before making a response, I would like to suggest you actually look at all angles before you post anything please.

This post has finally brought me to think that you are strictly out to bait people into flaming you and getting infraction points and not actually try and make viable suggestions.

I hope i dont get any points for this as I am by no means trying to flame, I am just asking you to put on your best Fireman's suit because I can feel the fire coming and I havent even found the match or light fluid yet.

Memnir
09-06-2007, 04:18 AM
No.
Deleting means a fresh start - period. If it's a waste, then don't reroll.

Dingo123
09-06-2007, 04:18 AM
Actually, this is an idea from the old old bbs mud game MajorMUD and it was a REALLY nice feature that I've missed ever since.

It meant that even if you took a dive, you would still come back with a measure of the power you had before.

It worked very well.

Knightrose
09-06-2007, 04:41 AM
I'm sick of seeing these threads. Stop feeding the fire people. Most of you just seem happy to argue.

Stop?

Taur
09-06-2007, 05:18 AM
like i posted on one of the other threads. stop feeding the forum trolls and eventually they'll go away.

Riorik
09-06-2007, 05:42 AM
He is right - I'm a veteran of a few MUD's and some of them had a 'reincarnation' type of feature with varying effects on the future stats/characteristics.

I'm not sure I like the suggestion as-is, however, I fail to see how it's a flame-worthy comment or even really out there at all. It's just a suggestion.
Currently, my own favorite topic would be character respecs.

In my own opinion, most of the necessary code and UI's are already in place to handle it. Picture this for a FULL character respec:

Snapshot of character is taken - mostly, to acquire the "Inherent Bonuses" to stats from tomes and the current experience total and choices for appearance and all quest completion status's.

Player is then taken to the stock/default character creation screen - and get to acquire stats EXACTLY like they might if they were building a fresh/new character including skills, spells, etc.

After going to level 1 and being created, the inherent bonuses are applied.
Player merely goes to the trainer of their choice and if they're capped on experience, talks 13 separate times.

Comment: The tomes are being applied before they got them originally.
Reply: Who cares, it's supposed to be fun, what does it *really* hurt to do this? This is a cooperative not competitive game.

Options: The player may or may not be able to select a different race and/or classes.

Dingo123
09-06-2007, 05:58 AM
He is right - I'm a veteran of a few MUD's and some of them had a 'reincarnation' type of feature with varying effects on the future stats/characteristics.

I'm not sure I like the suggestion as-is, however, I fail to see how it's a flame-worthy comment or even really out there at all. It's just a suggestion.
Currently, my own favorite topic would be character respecs.

In my own opinion, most of the necessary code and UI's are already in place to handle it. Picture this for a FULL character respec:

Snapshot of character is taken - mostly, to acquire the "Inherent Bonuses" to stats from tomes and the current experience total and choices for appearance and all quest completion status's.

Player is then taken to the stock/default character creation screen - and get to acquire stats EXACTLY like they might if they were building a fresh/new character including skills, spells, etc.

After going to level 1 and being created, the inherent bonuses are applied.
Player merely goes to the trainer of their choice and if they're capped on experience, talks 13 separate times.

Comment: The tomes are being applied before they got them originally.
Reply: Who cares, it's supposed to be fun, what does it *really* hurt to do this? This is a cooperative not competitive game.

Options: The player may or may not be able to select a different race and/or classes.


This would be handy for older botched characters (i.e. stats or skills you ask yourself "What the hell was I thinking?")

Lorien_the_First_One
09-06-2007, 06:10 AM
This would be handy for older botched characters (i.e. stats or skills you ask yourself "What the hell was I thinking?")

Why should you get to keep the good parts of what you did and not the bad?

Deriaz
09-06-2007, 06:54 AM
Don't think I like this idea. :/

If a capped character rerolled, and started at, let's say, level 3 (Or whatever. I dunno what you'd put the percent at, but a capped character has a lot of XP to begin with.). . . Then he has no reason to do a few of the lower level quests. So, he's skipping content. And then we get people complaining more about no content.

And along with that. . . It's not all that hard to level already. Instead of taking a few seconds to delete a character and reroll him to start at level 3 or whatever, just take an evening or two with some friends, enjoy the game, and you'll be level 3 again in no time.

I don't exactly see how this would be helpful. I mean, sure, you get to keep some of the EXP, and that you "keep the good parts" or whatever, but. . . It's, like, a few hours to get back up to where you would be if you got the EXP instantly.

I really don't see how hard it is to just take an evening or two, and start over from scratch, instead of asking to instantly be level 2 or 3 (If you were capped), or have an edge against a new player to the game, since you're getting an EXP boost from the beginning. :/

-D

Dingo123
09-06-2007, 06:55 AM
*sigh* then why not just start at L14 Dingo? It's just a game, you should be able to start all powerful...

You might want to go back to your post on viewing the game as a whole.

You're going to sit there... with a straight face... and equate respec with starting with a brand new level 14 character out of the box?

You're really going to do that.

You're going to ignore the possibly weeks worth of effort spent actually playing the game?

You're going to tell me that someone ELSES fun should be smeared because it's best for THEM? It's certainly not best of the game. People having the characters they want is best for the game, not characters they're frustrated with and resent.

So yes, you want to force people to experience the game you want them to "for their own good".

Right-O.

Missing_Minds
09-06-2007, 07:07 AM
There is actually a bases for this in table top as well. Normally in the case where the group is of lvl X that is much higher than first. Now maybe your DM won't let you come back as the same level but close to it.

While it would be nice... I have to say I'm against it. It is not overtly hard to level in this game at all. A few bad pugs may set you back some, but nothing that is not easily over come.

Dingo, please do everyone (yourself included). Stop flaming and flame baiting people. Your original post was not bait this time. But your subsequent posts most definatly are.

Shaamis
09-06-2007, 07:18 AM
I'd like to see us keep a portion of our XP from deleted characters.

For example, if I delete a level 5 a percentage4 of that XP would remain in the slot that I just deleted, granted to the next character I create in that slot.

It's a remote possibility, only in the fact that some house rules of PnP allwed this.

But Alas, DDO is not a PnP carbon-copy, and we earn XP too fast as it is now.

I say no, do not allow this, for the reasons below.

I have re-rolled at least 6-7 characters, from 4-9th level, and I still am glad I didnt get the residual XP benefit.

It opens the door for abuse in my mind, and shoddy character design.

Just take a moment, do your research, and make sound decisions about your characters build/development.

Otherwise, you'll see an army of the latest rule-munchkin builds, hit level cap so fast, it will make your head swim, and then DDO will be in trouble.

Sue_Dark
09-06-2007, 07:20 AM
Thats a pretty lame idea, actually. If it takes you more than 2 hours to get to level 3, solo on pretty much any class, you have obviously no need to get that exp back. Learn how to play.

llevenbaxx
09-06-2007, 07:21 AM
I dont like it. It makes no sense in a D&D capacity. Experiences of another character, in no way should benefit any other charcter. They didnt fight those monsters, why would they benefit? There is a core set of rules they are working from, this change would make no sense from a D&D standpoint(or is that the point?). I vote no.:)

Arlith
09-06-2007, 07:22 AM
I'd like to see us keep a portion of our XP from deleted characters.

Sigh... What a waste is right. Soon there will be no trains left.

Shaamis
09-06-2007, 07:23 AM
There is a form of benefit gained by another character gaining XP in DDO, it's the Drow/32-point build reward.

XP is easy to re-earn, but try to earn Drow racial stats, or four more creation points for non-drow builds.

DDO already has this kind of reward, just not the way you were thinking.

The_Ick
09-06-2007, 07:25 AM
Wow, you guys are hard on Dingo. Regardless of whether or not you like his ideas, atleast he is presenting constructive ideas. And even if you don't agree with him, he has the right to post whatever he wants. If you don't like his ideas, a simple "I don't aggree with this because..." would do. You guys are like forum bullies. Ease off...

Anywho, as far as the idea. I wouldn't hate if they put something like this in. I have run out of characters slots twice over and between current and deleted toons. And letting me skip some of the lower level content that i have run an insane number of times would not make me feel that there is less content in the game. The only content i really feel the game is lacking at this point is more high level content. Stuff to do with my capped toons.

In the long run, this would probably only save me a couple nights worth of playing but i like the line of thinking. It might give people some incentive to reroll capped toons which would put off the endgame a little for them.

teddok
09-06-2007, 07:29 AM
You're going to sit there... with a straight face... and equate respec with starting with a brand new level 14 character out of the box?

You're really going to do that.

You're going to ignore the possibly weeks worth of effort spent actually playing the game?

You're going to tell me that someone ELSES fun should be smeared because it's best for THEM? It's certainly not best of the game. People having the characters they want is best for the game, not characters they're frustrated with and resent.

So yes, you want to force people to experience the game you want them to "for their own good".

Right-O.

Again Dingo it fall back to enjoying the game. If you dont like the way the game runs then dont play it. You have shown time and time agian that you dont like the way the game works. Ok we get it. You dont like DDO. The rest of us like it the way it is for the most part. We all know there are a few issues that need to be worked but none the less we still love it. Your suggestion would completely mess the game up and cause most of us would end up leaving. I know i would if they started doing the things they asked for, and not just to spit you but because the idea's really blow.

Mercules
09-06-2007, 07:31 AM
You're going to ignore the possibly weeks worth of effort spent actually playing the game?

So yes, you want to force people to experience the game you want them to "for their own good".

Sorry, but if you are thinking of the game as "effort" and you don't enjoy it, why play it? Take my Warhammer:FB army I am putting together. Yes I have to paint literally hundreds of little figures, that is after carefully assembling them, which comes after carefully designing the forces of the army. All of this would be seen as some as "work" or "effort". I could see someone saying, "All that time and effort putting together an army and it gets its butt whooped?" I see it as something to do that is relaxing and has me focusing on something other than how my day went. DDO is the same sort of thing.

I think too many people focus on what the current MAX level is and forget the fun they had the first time they played their character. Now level 2 is just a chore when the first time through they went, "Alright, level 2 already. At level 3 I get a new feat/spell/ability! Almost there." A slight shift in perspective can make a "task" more "fun".


Because it's a fugging video game? Are you like Calvin's dad or something? Going to lecture me on the joys of adversity and how it will help be build character?

Apparently you missed why the comic is funny. Not only is it funny because it happens to us all that we have some authority figure announce how it will be good for us, but also because it is true. This is called irony. It's ironic that we all grumble about it, that Calvin points out the silliness of saying it, and that in the end it is still true. People don't appreciate what they have not worked/suffered for.

Take 5 college students. Ride around with them for a few days and I bet you can pick out who actually paid for their car, or is paying for their car, themselves and who had mommy, daddy, or grand-something give/buy them a car.

wundernewb
09-06-2007, 07:33 AM
.

You're going to ignore the possibly weeks worth of effort spent actually playing the game?

This is an MMO. You pay monthly. MMO gamers (as opposed to the regular type) know upfront that if they want a new character, they have to start from scratch. This keeps MMO gamers playing longer, because the game is more or less about advancing your character. And keeping MMO gamers playing longer puts money in people's pockets.

This is why MMO's have "time sinks". The more time you spend playing the game, the more money they make, and starting new characters from scratch is a time sink every paid subscription-only MMO has.


You're going to tell me that someone ELSES fun should be smeared because it's best for THEM? It's certainly not best of the game. People having the characters they want is best for the game, not characters they're frustrated with and resent.



It's not about the most fun for the players. It's about the most money for the gaming company, tempered by a threshold of how slow of advancement the majority of players will tolerate.

Making the players advance quicker is counterproductive to profits. Yes, as things currently stand, some players will become frustrated and quit, but not nearly as many as would quit from boredom if they advanced too fast.


So yes, you want to force people to experience the game you want them to "for their own good".

Right-O

And by the overwhelmingly negative response this thread will get, (and others have gotten) it seems that you want to force people to experience the game you want them to "for your own good".

That may sound harsh, but if there is an easier way to do things, people will do them. It's human nature. MMO companies realise this, and therefore try to keep players from having to make the choice if they want to do something the easy way, or the hard way.

AmsterdamHeavy
09-06-2007, 07:36 AM
Actually, this is an idea from the old old bbs mud game MajorMUD and it was a REALLY nice feature that I've missed ever since.

It meant that even if you took a dive, you would still come back with a measure of the power you had before.

It worked very well.

An old MUD....not D&D, enough said.

Hendrik
09-06-2007, 07:50 AM
Still trying to pull things from other games to improve your gameplay eh Dingo?

This is DDO. This is NOT WoW, CoH, or any other game you have played. I suggest you crack open your hardcover DnD books and look for ideas there. Start with Second Edition and move up to 3.5.

There is your source material for improving DDO.

This is ripe for abuse and clearly shows limited forethought for the game as a whole and concentrates, again, on personal game improvements.

You want to delete a character and use a part of his XP to bump up a fresh reroll to a higher level by NOT Questing? This is just XP Pot 'idea' with a different twist to it.

A big NO to this idea.

Arlith
09-06-2007, 07:54 AM
In the long run, this would probably only save me a couple nights worth of playing but i like the line of thinking. It might give people some incentive to reroll capped toons which would put off the endgame a little for them.

How could it put off the endgame when they keep the xp and are right back in the endgame???

Part of toon development is playing the toon. Knowing what you can/can't do with it. Whether you RP or not, each toon develops a unique personality while coming up through the ranks. I have several characters and each finds a niche, an area all their own that is developed over the course of leveling.

Another problem is that one type of toon is not the same as another. Someone runs a fighter up to 14, decides one day the they want to run a caster. Delete fighter. Roll Sorcerer. Now they have a capped Sorc. They've never played a sorc and have no idea how to run a sorc.

I can see potential for abuse. My sorc already swapped spells in the last three days, but I need this spell. So I delete sorc1, roll sorc2 and walla! I have the spell. I don't like my feats, just delete the toona and roll another, all new feats on the way. Who needs Fred?

Last, it opens yet another door that should not be opened. Well if we can keep the XP, why should we lose the raid loot we worked so hard for. It should xfer too!

The problem I have with most of these suggestions is they take all the game out of the game. You log in, and walla you are at endgame. Its "DDO Godmode". Its wrong.

I have deleted several toons, most capped. Each time I started back at the bottom and worked my way up. Each time I do, I get a little better at the game. Which is the whole point of playing the game.

Olaff
09-06-2007, 08:03 AM
If XP was difficult to come by, or if dying meant something significant, I might agree with this kind of proposal.

As it is, it's ridiculously easy to cap a character, even for a casual player like myself.

blakbyrd
09-06-2007, 08:06 AM
Dingo,

You are yet again doing nothing more than asking for DDO to simply throw out it's core roots and intention and become precisely not D&D, after which the game itself is named and based upon. Some of your other suggestions might have had an extremely slim chance of ever getting considered, but this one I cannot even imagine would produce any more thought at Turbine than a good 5 second laugh.

Although MUDs are the originators to where the MMOs came from, they were very limited on what they could do, leveling was an entirely different story and there were so many to choose from (thousands then, and still thousands of em now), that they had to come up with odd situations and circumstances to keep people (your suggestion being one of them). How popular was that idea do you think? MajorMUD was not exactly a slouch in the MUD departments (certainly larger ones out there of course), and yet how many other places (MUDs, MOOs, MUSHes, full graphical MMOs such as DDO is) have you ever seen or heard of this idea coming to light again? It's not a popular mechanic at all, and has no basis or reasoning behind even doing it. Back to DDO, this suggestion clearly goes against the very basic design of D&D.

Side note: I am not beginning to agree with some others here in that you are intentionally trying to flame bait the forums.

JelloMold
09-06-2007, 08:13 AM
I start and reroll characters all the time just to get a basic feel for the class, race etc. If we applied all the "wasted" XP to one of my characters, I would be the new demi-god you were all planning on fighting in Mod 5.

I see none of that as wasted. As in life, I learn much more from my mistakes than from my successes.

Dirac
09-06-2007, 08:15 AM
Stop dragging Dingo's previous posts into his new ones. Stop trying to tell him what he needs out of a game, what game he should go play, or psycoanalyze him. If you don't like his new idea, explain why this idea is a bad one.

I think this idea has some merit, you get to keep some of the experience you have as a player. The most useful senerio would be re-rolling a new character of the same class, you relly don't need to "learn" that class again at the low levels. Sure, xp is easy to come by, but leveling in real time is all a function of the time you have to play. Re-rolling is more of a barrier for some than for others.

However, xp is easy to come by, thus the need for this is low. I don't like the idea of using xp for new classes that people need time to learn. I am also worried about the dev time necessary to code all the ramafications of such a change, time that is deperately needed for new content.

I would be against this, though I appreciate people brainstorming on how to make DDO better.

The_Ick
09-06-2007, 08:18 AM
How could it put off the endgame when they keep the xp and are right back in the endgame???

Part of toon development is playing the toon. Knowing what you can/can't do with it. Whether you RP or not, each toon develops a unique personality while coming up through the ranks. I have several characters and each finds a niche, an area all their own that is developed over the course of leveling.

Another problem is that one type of toon is not the same as another. Someone runs a fighter up to 14, decides one day the they want to run a caster. Delete fighter. Roll Sorcerer. Now they have a capped Sorc. They've never played a sorc and have no idea how to run a sorc.

I can see potential for abuse. My sorc already swapped spells in the last three days, but I need this spell. So I delete sorc1, roll sorc2 and walla! I have the spell. I don't like my feats, just delete the toona and roll another, all new feats on the way. Who needs Fred?

Last, it opens yet another door that should not be opened. Well if we can keep the XP, why should we lose the raid loot we worked so hard for. It should xfer too!

The problem I have with most of these suggestions is they take all the game out of the game. You log in, and walla you are at endgame. Its "DDO Godmode". Its wrong.

I have deleted several toons, most capped. Each time I started back at the bottom and worked my way up. Each time I do, I get a little better at the game. Which is the whole point of playing the game.

While i see & agree with your concern about it unlocking other requests, such as keeping raid loot i have to disagree about it disrupting toon development. Atleast the way i am picturing it. I think the key point to remember here is that you are not keeping all of your XP, just a small percentage. And how much it really effects the toon development depends on what kind of precentage we are talking about.

In my mind i was thinking under 10% of your XP would be kept. That means that if you deleted a capped toon you would be looking at about a 4-5 lvl toon (and remember that is on he high end of this suggestion). I defintately agree that if we were talking about starting rerolled toons at 8th+ lvl there would be some concern, but i think you don't even really start to get a feel for your toons until 4th lvl. My point is ultimately that i don't think you would lose that much knowledge of the game or toon development by skipping the first 1-3 lvls. Again that is just my pespective from the way i play. I really dread getting a toon to 5th lvl, just because i have run those low level quests so many times.

As for putting off the end game, it could do this for some is because it would encourage them to reroll their toons when they wouldn't have before. And let's face it, rerolling toons is what you have to do to keep playing the game.

Again in the long run, this only really effects me a couple hours out of each toon i roll so i could give or take the idea. I do however think that some incentives to reroll toons would be a good thing for the game.

barabel
09-06-2007, 08:22 AM
Since Turbine gets their income from people playing on a month to month basis, they should be doing everything they can to encourage people to play longer, not shorten the gaming experience.

That being said, I don't see why they would want to make it easier or faster for people to level up their characters for whatever reason. The faster or easier they make it, the less amount of time players will be spending online.

Dingo, can you explain why Turbine would/should add such functionality aside from some players want to re-level faster?:confused:

Mercules
09-06-2007, 08:29 AM
The most useful senerio would be re-rolling a new character of the same class, you relly don't need to "learn" that class again at the low levels.

I beg to differ about this. I've played a "tactics" fighter, an "intimidate" fighter, a range based fighter, and a DPS fighter. While I've rerolled some of them or deleted them between 8-10 in some cases I can tell you those 4 characters all of the same class play very differently.

I also had a Bard that was good at Healing while my current Bard does buffing/CC. Very different to play.

BattleCleric, SupportCleric, OffensiveCasterCleric, and GenericCleric are all VERY different to play.

DPS Rogue with trapsmithing, trapsmith/support Rogue, and ranged based Rogue... different, different, different.

Kingfish
09-06-2007, 08:30 AM
Because it's a fugging video game?

Yeah, A video game based on a RPG...where you build a character to fame and glory(and kewl loot)!

Lets see how this plays out...

Bob: Hey DM, I was thinking...I don’t like where Severis has gone...sure he's 5th lvl and all but, I want to reroll him and reassign all his skills...he'll still be a rogue but this time i want him to be ALL CHR and use UMD instead of the hide, in the shadows sneaky sneaky kinda guy, he is gonna be a OUT in you FACE flamboyant almost swashbuckler type!

DM: what?

Bob: Yeah, I know the rest of the group is use to me being the hiding type, sneak ahead and scout type but, they will just have to get use to Severis the BOLD...THE FACE MAN!

DM: What about all the history with that character...what about all the cousins and what not...and the Dragonmark? What about all the ties to your House?

Bob: Pffft...just lets say it never happened.

DM: But, it did...and the other players KNOW it did too.

Bob: So? This is what I want! Its just a fugging game man...comeon!

DM: And if you decide you don't like the FACE MAN?

Bob: So? Its just a fugging game man.

I don't know...i dont like it...seems to lessen the overall integrity.

Just my 2 cents and I do know that sometimes two cents = no sense...but not THIS time.

M1A1
09-06-2007, 08:40 AM
...can you explain why Turbine would/should add such functionality aside from some players want to re-level faster?:confused:

I have been playing since June 2006 and I just noticed this feature a little while ago. The person standing right after the docks that lets you skip all the intro **** and go right to the Harbor. This was a GREAT addition, I dont need to go through that anymore, just like I dont need to go through all the Good Blades and those quests that are right around the 1st trainers (you know the ones Im talking about) while this is not exactly like what his post is about, I could see this as the middle ground. You get a character to 1750 (or whatever the "proved yourself" point is) you can get the credit for all those quests on any characters created after that point.

Dirac
09-06-2007, 08:44 AM
I beg to differ about this. I've played a "tactics" fighter, an "intimidate" fighter, a range based fighter, and a DPS fighter. While I've rerolled some of them or deleted them between 8-10 in some cases I can tell you those 4 characters all of the same class play very differently.

I also had a Bard that was good at Healing while my current Bard does buffing/CC. Very different to play.

BattleCleric, SupportCleric, OffensiveCasterCleric, and GenericCleric are all VERY different to play.

DPS Rogue with trapsmithing, trapsmith/support Rogue, and ranged based Rogue... different, different, different.

Of course this is true. That's really what I meant, it would be useful for one re-rolling the same type of character.

blakbyrd
09-06-2007, 08:50 AM
Aside from the fact that Dingo's ideas are blatantly against the core of D&D, I must admit that there are some points to all of this that I too have been through over the years.

That simply being, the ability to find that perfect MMO for me. For the most part no such MMO exists. With every such game you have to weigh out the points that are good and bad to you to decide which side takes over, at which point you will know if the game is worth playing or not. DDO, for me, has come the closest, but of course there are situations and game mechanics I too do not like, but they are far outweighed by the parts I do like, which is why I remain here and not in WoW, EQ2, Eve, etc.

It is understandable for players to want to suggest how to make a game better for them, but when you enter into a game that has a monthly subscription and regular maintenance costs, the suggestions become more difficult to get implemented, because some necessities of maintaining such a high cost game require doing exactly what the customer may not want, and being able to balance that with what the customer does. Giving the customer everything they want in a monthly subscription game will quickly reduce the long term subscription such players would have as their play time would generally dwindle down much faster and they will move on. DDO offers a bit more in its mechanics as an MMO than most others do, which in turn creates the need for tact and strategy, which goes beyond that of the typical cookie-cutter, Mario mentality MMOs. DDO certainly isnt for everyone, just as any other MMO certainly isnt for everyone.

Still, and yet again, this is based on D&D and with that comes a responsibility to maintain it to D&D as best they can, as it is licensed as such and expected to remain as such, or Turbine could lose the very license to use the name. Asking to blatantly deviate from the rules and design of D&D would be bad for this game in particular because that is not what D&D is or is about. Asking for too many such things (assuming they started becoming a reality) could cause the very game you like to go away as WotC would be able to pull the licensing, because it is not what they licensed and it would no longer be what it was supposed to be. Most other MMOs don't have such restrictions and could easily implement such drastic rule changes with no prior basis to say otherwise, but D&D does not have this convenience....not if it wants to remain titled for it's very namesake.

Most of Dingo's suggestions are of course possible, but he's coming into a world of players (many of which know and understand the basics of what D&D is) and asking them to throw their rules out the window. It's not going to be a popular position to be in, and many D&D fans will take offense to that and will defend the rules that has made D&D the RPG giant for so long. You can try such things in almost any other games and the opposition wont be so fierce because their is no underlying, pre-defined ruleset for people to use as a defense and it comes down simply to opinion. It wouldn't be much different if Dingo simply came to a regular D&D PnP session and started telling the DM and other players that all these basic rules should be changed...it simply wouldn't go ever well and he'd find fierce opposition there as well.

barabel
09-06-2007, 09:13 AM
I have been playing since June 2006 and I just noticed this feature a little while ago. The person standing right after the docks that lets you skip all the intro **** and go right to the Harbor. This was a GREAT addition, I dont need to go through that anymore, just like I dont need to go through all the Good Blades and those quests that are right around the 1st trainers (you know the ones Im talking about) while this is not exactly like what his post is about, I could see this as the middle ground. You get a character to 1750 (or whatever the "proved yourself" point is) you can get the credit for all those quests on any characters created after that point.

M1A1 - I respectfully disagree with your assessment.

The training missions are special and are meant to instruct the players on how the game operates. Allowing experienced players the ability to bypass this I think is really the exception to the rule.

As for the change to the Goodblade quests, all they really did was open up which missions the players could begin playing. (Which I think was a great decision). However, players aren't given anything for free due to this change. They still need to run quests to get their characters leveled up (Goodblades or other missions). Turbine is just taking away the linear route everyone had to take before.

llevenbaxx
09-06-2007, 09:19 AM
Wow, you guys are hard on Dingo. Regardless of whether or not you like his ideas, atleast he is presenting constructive ideas. And even if you don't agree with him, he has the right to post whatever he wants. If you don't like his ideas, a simple "I don't aggree with this because..." would do. You guys are like forum bullies. Ease off...

Anywho, as far as the idea. I wouldn't hate if they put something like this in. I have run out of characters slots twice over and between current and deleted toons. And letting me skip some of the lower level content that i have run an insane number of times would not make me feel that there is less content in the game. The only content i really feel the game is lacking at this point is more high level content. Stuff to do with my capped toons.

In the long run, this would probably only save me a couple nights worth of playing but i like the line of thinking. It might give people some incentive to reroll capped toons which would put off the endgame a little for them.

Hey I wounldnt mind either, but think of the new players who wouldnt be able to skip levels 1 & 2(or to where ever). Turbine needs as many players at all levels as they can get. I might skip all the outer harbor stuff given the option and im sure im not alone. This idea goes against everything I would think Turbine would prefer. Faster leveling for vets and less overall low level characters for new players to group with. All for a very minor convienence.

Really if they start doing this type of stuff, how long until we start seeing the let us start at w/e level we want suggestions. Alot of people just like to jump on these (bad imho:)) suggestions that they feel would hurt the game, even though they would provide a minor bonus/convienence for certain individuals, in a hopes they never see them get into the game.

Mercules
09-06-2007, 09:21 AM
M1A1 - I respectfully disagree with your assessment.

The training missions are special and are meant to instruct the players on how the game operates. Allowing experienced players the ability to bypass this I think is really the exception to the rule.

As for the change to the Goodblade quests, all they really did was open up which missions the players could begin playing. (Which I think was a great decision). However, players aren't given anything for free due to this change. They still need to run quests to get their characters leveled up (Goodblades or other missions). Turbine is just taking away the linear route everyone had to take before.

And who WOULDN'T want to run the Goodblade quests. You can get some ok starter items out of them until you pass down your twink gear you can't use till level 2-3.:rolleyes: You also get solid XP and a bunch of Favor for very little effort and that favor goes towards your first backpack slot which most people like to get quickly.

M1A1
09-06-2007, 09:22 AM
Since Turbine gets their income from people playing on a month to month basis, they should be doing everything they can to encourage people to play longer, not shorten the gaming experience.

That being said, I don't see why they would want to make it easier or faster for people to level up their characters for whatever reason. The faster or easier they make it, the less amount of time players will be spending online.

Dingo, can you explain why Turbine would/should add such functionality aside from some players want to re-level faster?:confused:

The fact of the matter is, those quests in the begenning are desigend so you can get the basics of grouping (goodblades) and then its back to solo only stuff so you can get a 'little" better understanding of the game. After you have reached a certain point in your DDO experience these are a nuisance and should follow the route of the intro quests i.e. new characters able to auto-complete

teddok
09-06-2007, 09:24 AM
I think this idea has some merit, you get to keep some of the experience you have as a player.

The experience that you have as a player is the fact that you know know what it is that you are doing and you know the quests the loot and everything else.

M1A1
09-06-2007, 09:26 AM
Hey I wounldnt mind either, but think of the new players who wouldnt be able to skip levels 1 & 2(or to where ever). Turbine needs as many players at all levels as they can get. I might skip all the outer harbor stuff given the option and im sure im not alone. This idea goes against everything I would think Turbine would prefer. Faster leveling for vets and less overall low level characters for new players to group with. All for a very minor convienence.

Really if they start doing this type of stuff, how long until we start seeing the let us start at w/e level we want suggestions. Alot of people just like to jump on these (bad imho:)) suggestions that they feel would hurt the game, even though they would provide a minor bonus/convienence for certain individuals, in a hopes they never see them get into the game.

When they want to start getting new subscriptions/players, I will start caring about a "brandspanking new" person struggling in the harbor.

barabel
09-06-2007, 09:37 AM
Well M1A1, I don't see why a player should automatically get a free pass on all the Goodblade and Apirant quests.

These quests I think are in a different vein then "How do I cast a spell or how do I sneak" type training missions which occur on the beginning island.

llevenbaxx
09-06-2007, 10:06 AM
When they want to start getting new subscriptions/players, I will start caring about a "brandspanking new" person struggling in the harbor.

Advertising or not, new players are popping up, seriously I have met them:). Its not so much they will neccessarily be struggling or need our help at all. Its about playing an MMO and actually having alot of people to group with. Take out any rerolls/alts from levels 1-3 and Im thinking that will be a noticable % of low level characters.

M1A1
09-06-2007, 10:10 AM
Well M1A1, I don't see why a player should automatically get a free pass on all the Goodblade and Apirant quests.

These quests I think are in a different vein then "How do I cast a spell or how do I sneak" type training missions which occur on the beginning island.

Because they are useless, unless its really your first character. I havent done any of those quests on a new character until I did them for favor.

Mercules
09-06-2007, 10:12 AM
Well M1A1, I don't see why a player should automatically get a free pass on all the Goodblade and Apirant quests.

These quests I think are in a different vein then "How do I cast a spell or how do I sneak" type training missions which occur on the beginning island.

I hate to say it, but running through the Goodblade's chain with an untwinked Rogue is different than an untwinked Sorcerer is different than an untwinked Barbarian is... you get the idea. The classes and builds play a bit different. Now twink gear can seriously homogenize your lower level experiences.

M1A1
09-06-2007, 10:15 AM
I am in no way endorsing that this be "mandatory" only that it be an option for people that dont want/need to do these anymore. Im not saying wipe the whole of the harbor, if you want to do them fine, you want to help a "new" noob fine, just dont make ME do it. :o

Mercules
09-06-2007, 12:27 PM
I am in no way endorsing that this be "mandatory" only that it be an option for people that dont want/need to do these anymore. Im not saying wipe the whole of the harbor, if you want to do them fine, you want to help a "new" noob fine, just dont make ME do it. :o

We aren't... you can go run WW 20 times, STK 8, TR 10, SC 7, VoN 1-4 3, and PoP/MoM till your capped. Have fun with your dull grind. You still have to earn your XP for every characters and if you give most people an "easy" button they will push it. Lets leave the easy buttons out of the game.

M1A1
09-06-2007, 12:32 PM
We aren't... you can go run WW 20 times, STK 8, TR 10, SC 7, VoN 1-4 3, and PoP/MoM till your capped. Have fun with your dull grind. You still have to earn your XP for every characters and if you give most people an "easy" button they will push it. Lets leave the easy buttons out of the game.

Close your eyes, pretend there is a big red button on a table, now pretend you push it. Ok, now pretend you dont push it. So how did either of your choices affect me? Thats right, they didnt.

Dharma
09-06-2007, 12:35 PM
I have 6 toons all of which have done Goodblades on elite in the first 2 levels. These low quests are quick, easy, and give good xp if done at lvl 1 through elite. You are guaranteed to get lvl 2 and close to level 3 if you start at the first in and work your way through the harbor.

If you are skipping them you are short handing yourself on favor early. It is crazy to see lvl 14's running harbor quests for favor.

3 toons with 1750 at lvl 14

The easy button is for Staples not DDO. Dingo please stop posting easy button idea's they have no place in this game. After getting favor I have though why can't I just start with favor on a new toon... But then would I get the +2 tome that I hadn't earned? If I didn't get it I would be upset and then what else should they give me for free because I did it once?

As it is you can get a toon to 14 way to fast if you try... Free xp, favor, loot, sp and anything else is against the game mechanics.

Dharma
09-06-2007, 12:44 PM
But this is the best place to begin teaching new players...

On new toons this is where I find the newbies. Give them a few nice little toys and teach them what I can about the game and there chars. If all the experienced players got to skip these quests then it would happen later in harder quests.

Try running WW with a level 1 cleric never played before and that is what they have to run because that is all they can get a group for because the exp people don't have to do goodblades. Can a level 1 cleric do it sure if they know what they are doing.

Taking away from new people to the game isn't the right thing to do when we desperately need new blood in the game. A good experience for these new people with experienced people will go a long way to making this game better. (More players = more turbine funds = more development = more content = more advertising maybe (new box release) = happy player base)

It is a circle that if you start to break it the whole thing can collapse.

M1A1
09-06-2007, 12:45 PM
I have 6 toons all of which have done Goodblades on elite in the first 2 levels. These low quests are quick, easy, and give good xp if done at lvl 1 through elite. You are guaranteed to get lvl 2 and close to level 3 if you start at the first in and work your way through the harbor.

If you are skipping them you are short handing yourself on favor early. It is crazy to see lvl 14's running harbor quests for favor.

3 toons with 1750 at lvl 14

The easy button is for Staples not DDO. Dingo please stop posting easy button idea's they have no place in this game. After getting favor I have though why can't I just start with favor on a new toon... But then would I get the +2 tome that I hadn't earned? If I didn't get it I would be upset and then what else should they give me for free because I did it once?

As it is you can get a toon to 14 way to fast if you try... Free xp, favor, loot, sp and anything else is against the game mechanics.

That the goodblades/solo quest around the trainers would be done (optionally) like the creation quest.

This is wrong considering you can skip the creation quest, teleport to the harbor with 1000 or so xp and an action point.

Mercules
09-06-2007, 12:57 PM
Close your eyes, pretend there is a big red button on a table, now pretend you push it. Ok, now pretend you dont push it. So how did either of your choices affect me? Thats right, they didnt.

Ah... another believer that they live in a vacuum. If you make it easy to skip level 1-4 there are more people that would use it, than wouldn't. If less people run levels 1-4 then those who choose to have fewer people to group with. If those who choose to run 1-4 their second time through find there are very few groups in that range they too will likely skip level 1-4 since "No one does them anyway." If that happens then those that have no choice but to run level 1-4 now have no one to group with, become discouraged, and leave the game before they have a chance to actually experience it.

Think this won't happen? How many people still run desert quests when they get a new character up to level 10 instead of doing something like PoP where you get a ton or XP for a short amount of play time/effort?

Now, how does your choice effect me when no new players come into the game but players continue to leave? Oh, right... no DDO to play.

Dharma
09-06-2007, 12:59 PM
I was referring to the keeping stuff from a character you delete.. Not in regards to the newbie region of the game.

I am pro skipping that area as it is a solo only region of the game and could do without that 1000xp and 1ap. There are situations in pnp D&D where you start at a higher level and such.

If they do it to the goodblades or any harbor region then people will ask for more .. and more ... and more. It is a bad idea to set a precedence of auto-completion game content. The newbie area is all trainers and a guide to the game. It isn't real game content in my opinion that you are skipping. It is similar to I wouldn't read the book again (if i had one) for rerolling a character. I would skip reading the book and do it.

Mercules
09-06-2007, 01:02 PM
That the goodblades/solo quest around the trainers would be done (optionally) like the creation quest.

This is wrong considering you can skip the creation quest, teleport to the harbor with 1000 or so xp and an action point.

They are optional. You can walk out of the tavern, over to the Sewers, and start doing WW. You just don't get the lazy XP for it. the starter quests are training quests that give you a small bonus in extra XP and a few potions. Once you know how to set your spells on your bar after resting, you really don't need to "learn" it again.

M1A1
09-06-2007, 01:03 PM
Ah... another believer that they live in a vacuum. If you make it easy to skip level 1-4 there are more people that would use it, than wouldn't. If less people run levels 1-4 then those who choose to have fewer people to group with. If those who choose to run 1-4 their second time through find there are very few groups in that range they too will likely skip level 1-4 since "No one does them anyway." If that happens then those that have no choice but to run level 1-4 now have no one to group with, become discouraged, and leave the game before they have a chance to actually experience it.

Think this won't happen? How many people still run desert quests when they get a new character up to level 10 instead of doing something like PoP where you get a ton or XP for a short amount of play time/effort?

Now, how does your choice effect me when no new players come into the game but players continue to leave? Oh, right... no DDO to play.


A post I made earlier. They are not advertising the game. They are not worried about new players. Neither am I.

M1A1
09-06-2007, 01:05 PM
They are optional. You can walk out of the tavern, over to the Sewers, and start doing WW. You just don't get the lazy XP for it. the starter quests are training quests that give you a small bonus in extra XP and a few potions. Once you know how to set your spells on your bar after resting, you really don't need to "learn" it again.

I can skip the creation quest but I have to kill the dude in the wavecrest. Whats the point. If i can skip one nuisance, why not be able to skip the goodblades/solo quests if i WANT to?

Dharma
09-06-2007, 01:08 PM
I think it would be incorrect to say they don't want new players. That would be like saying they don't want profit.

New players are trying the game all the time...

No they aren't advertising right now... Would you advertise when the product isn't on the shelf? If they have any budget for advertising it would be best used at the release of the next major paid expansion which according to the forums as I have read it is Mod 6.

M1A1
09-06-2007, 01:11 PM
I just want to be able to skip those quests like I do the creation quest (at my option). It is the thing I dread the most when creating a new character, not the three weeks its gonna take to cap, not the fact that I gotta find great stuff for a new character, but that I gotta do GOODBLADES. LOL

Mercules
09-06-2007, 01:15 PM
I just want to be able to skip those quests like I do the creation quest (at my option). It is the thing I dread the most when creating a new character, not the three weeks its gonna take to cap, not the fact that I gotta find great stuff for a new character, but that I gotta do GOODBLADES. LOL

Again... YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO THE GOODBLADE'S QUESTS! EVER!

Wavecrest on the other hand, yes you have to do that one and I could see skipping that as an option.

Mercules
09-06-2007, 01:16 PM
I can skip the creation quest but I have to kill the dude in the wavecrest. Whats the point. If i can skip one nuisance, why not be able to skip the goodblades/solo quests if i WANT to?

What is stopping you? You are choosing to run those as there is no mechanic making you run them.

Dharma
09-06-2007, 01:16 PM
You said that "you gotta do Goodblades" ... which is false you don't have to unless you want the favor.

Favor shouldn't be free. If you don't like it then skip it. They can't make it so you don't have to and everyone else does, sorry you aren't that special. If they make it so that anyone that wants to can skip everyone will. Then were will the new people be? If you don't wanna help them learn, don't. But don't complain either when they get in your group and don't know how to play.

M1A1
09-06-2007, 01:54 PM
You said that "you gotta do Goodblades" ... which is false you don't have to unless you want the favor.

There you go, now your thinking. And yes I do HAVE to do them...because it will come to a point where you need total favor for something they put into the game, like half-orcs. And your right it shouldnt be FREE, but I think I have auto-earned that little bit of favor out of the whole in the yr+ I've played this game.

Mercules
09-06-2007, 02:08 PM
There you go, now your thinking. And yes I do HAVE to do them...because it will come to a point where you need total favor for something they put into the game, like half-orcs. And your right it shouldnt be FREE, but I think I have auto-earned that little bit of favor out of the whole in the yr+ I've played this game.

Welcome to your sense of entitlement. Please let me know how it works for you.

You don't have to move if you are in the middle of the street and a bus is coming. You might want to, but you don't have to. You might have incentive to run Goodblade's quests, but nobody MAKES you do it. Had this same discussion when I worked with kids with behavioral issues. "You make me..." Nope, that is a conscious decision you make.

Coldin
09-06-2007, 02:12 PM
There you go, now your thinking. And yes I do HAVE to do them...because it will come to a point where you need total favor for something they put into the game, like half-orcs. And your right it shouldnt be FREE, but I think I have auto-earned that little bit of favor out of the whole in the yr+ I've played this game.

FYI, Half-orcs won't require favor to unlock. They're core DnD so everyone will get them. Same goes for Monks, Druids, and Half-elves.

Dirac
09-06-2007, 02:20 PM
Welcome to ...

Merc, you probably want to edit this in a hurry. Your first statement is only kind of insulting. He does not have a sense of entitlement as in "wants something for nothing," but wants something for new characters based on what he did with old characters. You can disagree, and I do, but saying he is wrong, not because of logic or an error of reasoning, but because there is something wrong with his state of mind or functionality of his brain is way over the line (read again the analogy you are implicitly drawing at the end of your post).

This is not a complicated discussion. One side believes that by putting in time and effort in one character should give an xp or favor reward to future characters. This is not absurd, as you can already get a stat reward for future characters based on 1750 favor for earlier characters. The other side says no. One is a creation benefit (stats) the other is based on doing quests. Every character should start out the same place. I think both points of view are reasonable, I agree with the latter, and this is one where it makes sense to agree to disagree.

Mercules
09-06-2007, 02:28 PM
Merc, you probably want to edit this in a hurry. Your first statement is only kind of insulting. He does not have a sense of entitlement as in "wants something for nothing," but wants something for new characters based on what he did with old characters. You can disagree, and I do, but saying he is wrong, not because of logic or an error of reasoning, but because there is something wrong with his state of mind or functionality of his brain is way over the line (read again the analogy you are implicitly drawing at the end of your post).

His statement is basically that he has spent a year+ playing the game so he is entitled to it. That is a false sense of entitlement.

The only correlation I drew between him and my previous work is that MANY people feel they are entitled to things they are not. In my current work I deal with PHDs that each believe that they personally are more important than the other PHD asking for help with their software, or that I should bend our policy and rules because they need this report for court in an hour and didn't bother to try and create it until now when they found out their database had been removed by their network admin so the software won't run.

I have little sympathy for those that feel they are entitled to something special for all the work they have done enjoying themselves on a fun hobby all year.:rolleyes: Shouldn't they be thanking Turbine for providing this service instead?

Hafeal
09-06-2007, 02:38 PM
Why should you get to keep the good parts of what you did and not the bad?

I would say because if it makes the game more enjoyable to do so and people will play more, get their friends to play and/or like the game better because of it, then do it. I am not saying this idea will do that, although I don't think it is as horrible an idea as some posts make it out to be.


It's not about the most fun for the players. It's about the most money for the gaming company, tempered by a threshold of how slow of advancement the majority of players will tolerate.

See above.


If XP was difficult to come by, or if dying meant something significant, I might agree with this kind of proposal. As it is, it's ridiculously easy to cap a character, even for a casual player like myself.

No offense Olaf, going by your sig, you are a casual player but that does not per se mean that xp is easy to come by. As a casual player myself, xp is slow, especially if you suffer death xp at higher levels as you progress through the game.


Stop dragging Dingo's previous posts into his new ones. Stop trying to tell him what he needs out of a game, what game he should go play, or psycoanalyze him. If you don't like his new idea, explain why this idea is a bad one.

Well said Dirac.

Lorien_the_First_One
09-06-2007, 02:43 PM
I would say because if it makes the game more enjoyable to do so and people will play more, get their friends to play and/or like the game better because of it, then do it. I am not saying this idea will do that, although I don't think it is as horrible an idea as some posts make it out to be..

Allowing experienced players to skip the first few levels of content won't make more people play the game...it will damage the game. It will do so both because it will let me start a bard above the minimum even though I've never played one and thus, make more crappy middle level groups. You might as well support the power levelling companies out there.

It will be even more harmful in that less groups at low levels will mean it will be more difficult for new players to join and enjoy the game.

Dirac
09-06-2007, 02:45 PM
His statement is basically that he has spent a year+ playing the game so he is entitled to it. That is a false sense of entitlement.

It is your opinion that his entitlement is false. I agree that you should not be entitled to what he wants. But compare my statement, "While you can get xp rewards for new characters, I do not believe new characters should get xp or favor bonuses. The reasons for this are ..." to your first line of your post.



The only correlation I drew between him and my previous work is that MANY people feel they are entitled to things they are not. In my current work I deal with PHDs that each believe that they personally are more important than the other PHD asking for help with their software, or that I should bend our policy and rules because they need this report for court in an hour and didn't bother to try and create it until now when they found out their database had been removed by their network admin so the software won't run.

I'm with you, and believe that is all your are trying to do, but read what you are saying in context of your reply to this one person. You can't help but think you are drawing the comparison.



I have little sympathy for those that feel they are entitled to something special for all the work they have done enjoying themselves on a fun hobby all year.:rolleyes: Shouldn't they be thanking Turbine for providing this service instead?

Think about what that means. You have little sympathy. That is exactly what is coming through in the post that I mentioned. :) Sticking with explaining why the idea is not good, and refraining from expressing your disdain for their point of view is what I was getting at.

Nonetheless, I would think the context you provide just in this post is enough for people not to take you the wrong way. I was just expounding at what I was trying to say. No worries. :)

Girevik
09-06-2007, 02:54 PM
Allowing experienced players to skip the first few levels of content won't make more people play the game...it will damage the game.

The horse has already left the barn as far as the 1750 favor and 32-point builds, but allowing experienced players to skip the first X levels would have much less impact on the perceived disadvantage to new players.

For one thing, it has a successful precedent. DAoC has (had) a level cap of 50. Once your first character hit 50 on any server, you could then create level 20 characters (actually, you still created level 1's, but you could use a "/level 20" command to give them the experience to hit level 20) on any server.

Sure, that made the under-level 20 hunting areas fairly thinly populated, but once a new player achieved level 20 they achieved parity with the characters around them.

It did not hurt the game and no one ever griped about this on the DAoC forums, unlike the 32-point builds (which are advantages given to one character based on the achievements of another).

The game will be "hurt" a lot less if 2500 favor provides you the ability to use "/level 4" in the Harbor than if it provides you with 36 point builds.

captain1z
09-06-2007, 05:05 PM
firstly.......

-I did not read the thread beyond the OP and 1-2 replies

- I will assume that the usual replies were made

- I dont think I want to read the whole thing or that I need too..base on priors


secondly..........

- I actually like the idea

- reminds me of the legacy system from another game....next character inherits some XP and items/weapons from previous because they are linked in some way (karma or blood)

- you could potentially start out at level 3 and twinked. I would like that and seeing as It only takes me 3 hrs to get to 3rd level anyway it wouldnt matter all that much, just saves me 3 hrs and another round of goodblades and such.

In response to Dingo123 's OP.............wait 4 it..........wait 4 it

/agree (puts on flame retardent jammies)


*please dont hurt me*

Ghoste
09-06-2007, 05:23 PM
it will come to a point where you need total favor for something they put into the game, like half-orcs.
Drow ecl +2 - favor: 400
Half-orc: elc 0 - favor 2000+ ????
I dont think so.

I do agree though that there will likely be very appealing rewards for higher and higher favor, but I doubt it will be something like access to standard classes or ecl 0 races.

Arlith
09-06-2007, 06:00 PM
For one thing, it has a successful precedent. DAoC has (had) a level cap of 50. Once your first character hit 50 on any server, you could then create level 20 characters (actually, you still created level 1's, but you could use a "/level 20" command to give them the experience to hit level 20) on any server.

Sure, that made the under-level 20 hunting areas fairly thinly populated, but once a new player achieved level 20 they achieved parity with the characters around them.

But this is not DAoC. I have never played it. I looked it up on Google, and if the info I read is correct they have more people on one server than DDO total (which indicates that it is either so much better than DDO that we should all play that and DDO be damned, or that it is so easy that everyone that tries it beats the game (disclaimer, my own HO and not necessarily the opinion of Turbine or other DDO players). Which means that people hitting level X right off the bat could have a greater impact on the 1-3's than it does on DAoC. I can see the arguments now, "All you power gamers start off at level X and never help us new level 1-3's! Elitist pr#$%s!!!!"

nbhs275
09-06-2007, 07:03 PM
can we get saome sort of rule instatuted where after 5 horrible idea threads that get locked you can no longer post threads?

No. Because it would catter to the high end player. And wouldnt help the little guy. The person you pretend your trying to help.

If i can get to 14 in a week, then i can do it in 5 when i get to start at level six. But that level 6 newb finds out he gimped his sorcerer with 18 intel, he does the same thing and comes out level 2.

So without further detail.. NO..Just No.

DrAwkward
09-06-2007, 07:20 PM
Actually, this is an idea from the old old bbs mud game MajorMUD and it was a REALLY nice feature that I've missed ever since.

It meant that even if you took a dive, you would still come back with a measure of the power you had before.

It worked very well.

Its also an idea in accordance with tabletop D&D these days. If your character perma-dies in PnP you don't start over from first level -- you bring in a new character thats appropriate level for the party.

It doesn't fly in current MMO practices because it bypasses the requirement to beat the lowbie content to death. I think it might work in DDO because:
a) DDO is already "not like other MMOs"
b) Its closer in spirit to tabletop gaming
c) We still have favor grinding to keep us doing the lowbie quests.

The only reasons I can see for us to still start over fresh are:
a) Permadeath players probably don't want to keep any XP
b) It would theoretically reduce the number of first level characters for newbies to group with.

To mitigate a), we can have keeping XP as just an option - maybe you have to hand Fred your Brain (and a Superflurious Shard, and a bazilllion Gold) and say "eat half, give the rest to my next of kin."

To Mitigate b) ... well. How many of us really group with noobs when we start over? How many of our re-rolls are first level for more than 45 minutes?

Hmm.. not used to posting in these contraversial threads... Is it mandatory I insult someone?

Shamguard
09-06-2007, 07:22 PM
Actualy Dingo has a resonable idea here.:eek:

Personaly I'm tired of running the low level stuff every time I start a new character and would like some way of starting a character at a higher level.

We do it all the time in PnP games the DMG even has rules for starting higher level characters. It allows you to bring a new character in to an existing group near the current level of the party. That way you don't have a 1st level character in a 10th level group.

We already have the shortcut from the noob harbor now; so why not start a character at say level 5 or 6. This wouldn't be a game breaker since it would just allow an existing player to create a new character at a higher level.

Actualy by basing it on a percentage of the XP the character you deleted had would be fair. I would say 30-50% at most or about half the level of the character you just deleted.

The character would start with no money or equipment (so what we all twink anyway) and I would even give them zero favor though I wouldn't be against giving them credit for all the level 1-3 quest on solo/normal if the previous character had at lest done them at that level.

There is nothing game breaking or unbalancing to this since you are deleting a higher level character and starting a new lower level character, of a different class granted and I can see some issues with this, but once again nothing that really breaks the game.

This is something that could be tied to favor or just given as a new perk for the game since to use it you'd have to play enough to have the XP to transfer. Even setting a minimum XP amount so you have to delete at least a level 9 or 10 character before you got this.

Just some random thoughs, but people just because you don't like what someone has said in the past. Think about what he is saying before you get out the matches.

Rragnaar
09-06-2007, 09:29 PM
Wow, you guys are hard on Dingo. Regardless of whether or not you like his ideas, atleast he is presenting constructive ideas.


Do you not read the ideas? They are nowhere near constructive, but rather they are very destructive ideas.

If the ideas from any of his posts were introduced into the game, it would cause a cataclysmic collapse of the game itself. You would watch more than 2/3 of the population from each server say "To Heck with this game, they are destroying it on purpose." Then Turbine would lose a lot of money causing them to shut down the servers due to a lack of funding for the deseigners and we all would be stuck going to other games for MMO enjoyment.


Some ideas, like he stated, are from MUD's that he played on. Well obviously the ideas failed, as nobody plays most of these anymore. Most of the people maintaining the servers for these gave up due to a lack of profitability for those games. While they were fun at first, they were very limited due to being strictly text based.

If he doesn't want the criticism, he shouldn't make the posts. If you are not hard on someone for making idiotic posts, how will they ever learn? Though, that statement requires that the OP learns from his mistakes and the criticism, which by the amount of posts that he makes that are absurd, he obviously does not learn.

Arnya
09-06-2007, 10:05 PM
The hardest thing to explain, and to appreciate is the meaning of 'experience'

By spending time at a certain level you learn things.

Experience points reflect this. When you have enough experience at the current class level, you get to advance and gain more skills, building on the skills you should have mastered at the previous level.

I know this isn't perfect because we don't have a DM that decides whether or not you are 'good enough' to advance, we have XP doled out on a quest-completion basis.

But the practical upshot is this: as you level, you learn how to play your class and how to interact with a group of adventurers ie: sharing experiences.

This is the nature of D&D and bypassing any of this is not in D&D spirit.

My opinion would be that if a new player could start at level 1 or 14 she would generally choose lvl14 to see where a built-up character would end up. In MMOs this is bad.

There needs to be that anticipation of the next level or skill increase with no definitive endgame in sight.

This, I believe, is why Dingo is getting flamed by myself and others - Walk a mile in your character's shoes and learn her, love her, then if you must, reroll her better. That's D&D.

nbhs275
09-06-2007, 10:45 PM
Actualy Dingo has a resonable idea here.:eek:

Personaly I'm tired of running the low level stuff every time I start a new character and would like some way of starting a character at a higher level.

We do it all the time in PnP games the DMG even has rules for starting higher level characters. It allows you to bring a new character in to an existing group near the current level of the party. That way you don't have a 1st level character in a 10th level group.

We already have the shortcut from the noob harbor now; so why not start a character at say level 5 or 6. This wouldn't be a game breaker since it would just allow an existing player to create a new character at a higher level.

Actualy by basing it on a percentage of the XP the character you deleted had would be fair. I would say 30-50% at most or about half the level of the character you just deleted.

The character would start with no money or equipment (so what we all twink anyway) and I would even give them zero favor though I wouldn't be against giving them credit for all the level 1-3 quest on solo/normal if the previous character had at lest done them at that level.

There is nothing game breaking or unbalancing to this since you are deleting a higher level character and starting a new lower level character, of a different class granted and I can see some issues with this, but once again nothing that really breaks the game.

This is something that could be tied to favor or just given as a new perk for the game since to use it you'd have to play enough to have the XP to transfer. Even setting a minimum XP amount so you have to delete at least a level 9 or 10 character before you got this.

Just some random thoughs, but people just because you don't like what someone has said in the past. Think about what he is saying before you get out the matches.

Throw enough **** and something will stick. Its not a horrible idea, but implementing it fairly and without a risk for exteme exploitation just isnt worth the time and effort. Expecially with what i consider a rather low benefit. And there is always the fact that no one would every play lowbies other then newbs. And then newbs wouldnt get anyone helping them to learn, and didnt you think newbs need some sort of program to help them? Seems conterproductive to one of your other goals.

captain1z
09-06-2007, 10:52 PM
The hardest thing to explain, and to appreciate is the meaning of 'experience'

By spending time at a certain level you learn things.

Experience points reflect this. When you have enough experience at the current class level, you get to advance and gain more skills, building on the skills you should have mastered at the previous level.

I know this isn't perfect because we don't have a DM that decides whether or not you are 'good enough' to advance, we have XP doled out on a quest-completion basis.

But the practical upshot is this: as you level, you learn how to play your class and how to interact with a group of adventurers ie: sharing experiences.

This is the nature of D&D and bypassing any of this is not in D&D spirit.

My opinion would be that if a new player could start at level 1 or 14 she would generally choose lvl14 to see where a built-up character would end up. In MMOs this is bad.

There needs to be that anticipation of the next level or skill increase with no definitive endgame in sight.

This, I believe, is why Dingo is getting flamed by myself and others - Walk a mile in your character's shoes and learn her, love her, then if you must, reroll her better. That's D&D.




reason why I dont think you would miss the leveling play experience is because anyone who gets this perk as a reward has already leveled almost 100 characters and knows his/her role in a party...so I dont think you would be missing much if anything at all.

Arlith
09-06-2007, 10:59 PM
reason why I dont think you would miss the leveling play experience is because anyone who gets this perk as a reward has already leveled almost 100 characters and knows his/her role in a party...so I dont think you would be missing much if anything at all.

Now THAT idea I like! After your 100th Level 14 toon, you can start a character at level 6.

PaintHorseCowboy
09-07-2007, 12:12 AM
/smacks dingo over the head with a light mace.

No.

Again...

Again....

Again.....

Again......

Again.......

I am inclined to agree with someone else's assessment. You are simply here to bait people. Please stop with the rediculous, half-baked suggestions.

Yes, I can use the /ignore function, but then someone at Turbine might actually implement one of these hare-brained ideas because everyone has ignored you due to the fact we're tired of your very ill-received ideas. You're like an outlet pipe...constantly spewing forth pure sewage.

Thank you though, for consistantly adding to the total amusement of everyone who participates in the development forums. I'm sure we've all been enlightened by your knowledge of the Dungeons & Dragons realm. And frankly, I care not that you supposedly have over $1,000 dollars worth of 3.5 books stacked next to your computer. Some of these ideas you've come up with beg the question, "Did you ever bother to crack the cover and actually read them?"

Shamguard
09-07-2007, 12:23 AM
Throw enough **** and something will stick.

or as a friend of my put it "There must be a pony in here somewhere.":D


Its not a horrible idea, but implementing it fairly and without a risk for exteme exploitation just isnt worth the time and effort. Expecially with what i consider a rather low benefit. And there is always the fact that no one would every play lowbies other then newbs. And then newbs wouldnt get anyone helping them to learn, and didnt you think newbs need some sort of program to help them? Seems conterproductive to one of your other goals.

What extreme exploitation, you delete an existing high level character you can create a new character at half its levels. Nothing special about the character except you don't have to level grind through the lowbie dungeons that have you have already run to death.:rolleyes:

As far as new characters not having anyone experienced to play with. How often do you just create a 1st level character just so you can go and help some random (not a RL friend) 1st level noob get through the Goodblade quests. Personaly, I run must of the 1st and 2nd level content to elite solo. By the time I start grouping I'm at least 3rd level.:cool:

I twink all my new characters with equipment my higher level characters pick up or buy for them giving all my new characters a +1 or +2 ECL over any untwinked character.:eek:

I currently have a 9th level rogue who hasn't done at least a third of the quest in the harbor at all because the though of killing 200 kobolds (again) just makes me sick to my stomach and what she did do in the harbor I mostly just did one time on elite for the favor.:cool:

So don't give me the "this is unfair to new players":rolleyes: excuse because this game is already unfair to new players.:rolleyes:

I don't buy that it is unbalancing to game play, because if having a higher level character was unbalancing to play then we'd all have to start over at 1st level every time a new character was created, just so "we'd all have to help him".:rolleyes: Now that would be fair to new players.:p
No high level characters just a bunch of forever level 1 charcters doing the same 14 quests over and over. ROTFLMAO

I think you people are so against the OP on this one you'll come up with any excuse to discredit it. (his other ideas where jokes:D )

This idea, if anything, is a toned down character respec that so many of you have been crying for every time there is a change to the rules. Take your "I hate the OP" blinders off and give this idea some thought and I think you'll find that it does have some merit.

Oh yes, Rragnaar, the reason the old MUDs and other text based game no longer exist isn't because the game ideas where bad, it's because the technology to play the game advance to a point that there was something better to play. The game ideas probably still have merit just no one either remembers the games, (these kids have no sense of history) or someone just thought they have a better way of doing it.

If the old stuff is so bad why do they rerun T.V. shows from the 50s and 60s still? I mean most of those shows got canceled so they must not be any good.:cool:

Maybe some of you need to think your posts through, and think about your logic. Before someone starts flaming you just because you post.:D

Now shake hands and go play DDO and have fun or I'll spank you both.:D

Shamguard
09-07-2007, 12:31 AM
/smacks dingo over the head with a light mace.

No.

Again...

Again....

Again.....

Again......

Again.......

I am inclined to agree with someone else's assessment. You are simply here to bait people. Please stop with the rediculous, half-baked suggestions.

Yes, I can use the /ignore function, but then someone at Turbine might actually implement one of these hare-brained ideas because everyone has ignored you due to the fact we're tired of your very ill-received ideas. You're like an outlet pipe...constantly spewing forth pure sewage.

Thank you though, for consistantly adding to the total amusement of everyone who participates in the development forums. I'm sure we've all been enlightened by your knowledge of the Dungeons & Dragons realm. And frankly, I care not that you supposedly have over $1,000 dollars worth of 3.5 books stacked next to your computer. Some of these ideas you've come up with beg the question, "Did you ever bother to crack the cover and actually read them?"


So, what is the point of this post other than to belittle the OP. If you have a point to make about the current idea make it. If not you are just being the type of person you claim the OP is.

Arlith
09-07-2007, 01:00 AM
As far as new characters not having anyone experienced to play with. How often do you just create a 1st level character just so you can go and help some random (not a RL friend) 1st level noob get through the Goodblade quests. Personaly, I run must of the 1st and 2nd level content to elite solo. By the time I start grouping I'm at least 3rd level.:cool:

I do not roll new toons just to help new players.. but when I roll one, I usually run PUGS through the harbor and alot of the market place. Lots of new folks in there. Some listen, some don't and some I wanna pound their head into the ground until its a bloody messy pulp. But in spite of the irritations, I meet some good folks that way.


I twink all my new characters with equipment my higher level characters pick up or buy for them giving all my new characters a +1 or +2 ECL over any untwinked character.:eek:

Some I do, some I don't. I PUG with the ones I do, because an equipment advantage can save the day when you have a poor group.


So don't give me the "this is unfair to new players":rolleyes: excuse because this game is already unfair to new players.:rolleyes:

And don't give me the it's already unfair to the new players, so its okay to make it more unfair excuse.:D


Maybe some of you need to think your posts through, and think about your logic. Before someone starts flaming you just because you post.:D

Thinking.......


......


......

Nope, still don't like it.

Now shake hands and go play DDO and have fun or I'll spank you both.:D


Ewwwww Cooties!

wundernewb
09-07-2007, 07:33 AM
I would say because if it makes the game more enjoyable to do so and people will play more, get their friends to play and/or like the game better because of it, then do it.

See above.

Making a game more enjoyable, period, works well for regular games. The designers of those don't care how long you play them, because once you've purchased them, they've made their money from you. How long the game keeps you interested often has little bearing on how enjoyable it is.

MMO's on the other hand, have to make their money every month. Yes, they want to make the game enjoyable so others will play it, but not to the point of making advancement much faster, because a measured pace of advancement is what keeps people playing (and) paying.

Not saying Dingo's idea wouldn't make the game more fun, but I believe the extra people brought in by that change would be far outweighed by the number who got bored faster than usual and left.

Lorien_the_First_One
09-07-2007, 07:38 AM
As far as new characters not having anyone experienced to play with. How often do you just create a 1st level character just so you can go and help some random (not a RL friend) 1st level noob get through the Goodblade quests. Personaly, I run must of the 1st and 2nd level content to elite solo. By the time I start grouping I'm at least 3rd level.:cool:


What a shame. This hurts the game and should not be encouraged.


So don't give me the "this is unfair to new players":rolleyes: excuse because this game is already unfair to new players.:rolleyes:

Great argument against allowing so much twinking...



I think you people are so against the OP on this one you'll come up with any excuse to discredit it. (his other ideas where jokes:D )

Nope, actually partically agreed with him in at least one thread :p

Kingfish
09-07-2007, 08:03 AM
Hell, I say take the little goober out by the docks! FORCE everyone back through the Rook's Gambit just to get on the boat to Stormreach!

Then, rebuild the damn gate between the noob harbor and the main one...like it use to be! You want to ***** then *****!!!

And while we are at it...lets hang that dude infront of the Market Gate that keeps taking our bribes to let us by! BY GOSH...you WILL do WW before you even get a SNIFF of the market!

See what happens?

Give someone a little break and then they want more, and more, and more.

BOOHOO...I don't want to have to do the PIT AGAIN...wait, i REALLY don't want to do the pit again...scratch that...ok...I DON'T WANT TO DO MADSTONE AGAIN...wait...:eek:

Mercules
09-07-2007, 08:50 AM
I do not roll new toons just to help new players.. but when I roll one, I usually run PUGS through the harbor and alot of the market place. Lots of new folks in there. Some listen, some don't and some I wanna pound their head into the ground until its a bloody messy pulp. But in spite of the irritations, I meet some good folks that way.



Some I do, some I don't. I PUG with the ones I do, because an equipment advantage can save the day when you have a poor group.



And don't give me the it's already unfair to the new players, so its okay to make it more unfair excuse.:D



Thinking.......


......


......

Nope, still don't like it.



Ewwwww Cooties!

See... this is more of the community we need. When I create a new character I end up torn on what to do. I have started a PuG with the notation, "Goodblade's no zerging or tourguiding, new players welcome." Grab 2-3 other players and then go through all the Goodblade's quests helping them out when needed. If I get one of those I can tell has played the game WAY too much and who just rushes the whole quest I'll kick them so that new players can experience the game with a little help and safety in a way they can ask questions.

I like helping out the new people, but I've also been annoyed with the "I've done this 50 times, lets just skip this." crowd. So I try to only get the newere people and that is fun. The zergers I want to unbind from any point and throw them off the lighthouse with the hope they fall through the world and into that big empty zone no one else can see.

M1A1
09-07-2007, 09:04 AM
See... this is more of the community we need. When I create a new character I end up torn on what to do. I have started a PuG with the notation, "Goodblade's no zerging or tourguiding, new players welcome." Grab 2-3 other players and then go through all the Goodblade's quests helping them out when needed. If I get one of those I can tell has played the game WAY too much and who just rushes the whole quest I'll kick them so that new players can experience the game with a little help and safety in a way they can ask questions.

I like helping out the new people, but I've also been annoyed with the "I've done this 50 times, lets just skip this." crowd. So I try to only get the newere people and that is fun. The zergers I want to unbind from any point and throw them off the lighthouse with the hope they fall through the world and into that big empty zone no one else can see.

There will always be bleeding hearts like YOU that wanna do this ****. So be it, im not holding YOU back, yet you would dare force YOUR ways onto me. What a joke.

M1A1
09-07-2007, 09:07 AM
His statement is basically that he has spent a year+ playing the game so he is entitled to it. That is a false sense of entitlement.

I have little sympathy for those that feel they are entitled to something special for all the work they have done enjoying themselves on a fun hobby all year.:rolleyes: Shouldn't they be thanking Turbine for providing this service instead?

For all the work others have done.

Hendrik
09-07-2007, 09:10 AM
There will always be bleeding hearts like YOU that wanna do this ****. So be it, im not holding YOU back, yet you would dare force YOUR ways onto me. What a joke.

Wow.

Just wow.

Way to look out for your Community and fellow gamers.

M1A1
09-07-2007, 09:11 AM
Wow.

Just wow.

Way to look out for your Community and fellow gamers.

But this is a game, are you gonna be there if I get evicted or I lose a job. No you wont. Get real.

Hendrik
09-07-2007, 09:17 AM
But this is a game, are you gonna be there if I get evicted or I lose a job. No you wont. Get real.


Huh?

How does your loosing a job or being evicted related to not looking out for your fellow gamers and community?

So because its a game no need to look out for your fellow player and community members?

Selfish much?

Still, wow.

M1A1
09-07-2007, 09:20 AM
Huh?

How does your loosing a job or being evicted related to not looking out for your fellow gamers and community?

So because its a game no need to look out for your fellow player and community members?

Selfish much?

Still, wow.

It is a game and in the end you DONT matter to me, just like I DONT to you. Lets keep it that way and get back to the subject at hand.


EDIT: What are you here for anyway, I dont recall you posting in this thread at ALL, did you come in here just to attack me?

Hendrik
09-07-2007, 09:33 AM
It is a game and in the end you DONT matter to me, just like I DONT to you. Lets keep it that way and get back to the subject at hand.


EDIT: What are you here for anyway, I dont recall you posting in this thread at ALL, did you come in here just to attack me?

See, I happen to care about the community and my fellow gamers - why I am an active poster and take part in the community.

May want to go back and re-read the thread, I have been here posting. Nice try playing the victim.

M1A1
09-07-2007, 09:36 AM
May want to go back and re-read the thread, I have been here posting. Nice try playing the victim.

:eek:

M1A1
09-07-2007, 09:40 AM
Still trying to pull things from other games to improve your gameplay eh Dingo?

This is DDO. This is NOT WoW, CoH, or any other game you have played. I suggest you crack open your hardcover DnD books and look for ideas there. Start with Second Edition and move up to 3.5.

There is your source material for improving DDO.

This is ripe for abuse and clearly shows limited forethought for the game as a whole and concentrates, again, on personal game improvements.

You want to delete a character and use a part of his XP to bump up a fresh reroll to a higher level by NOT Questing? This is just XP Pot 'idea' with a different twist to it.

A big NO to this idea.

Real good advice there for someone making a suggestion.


Wow.

Just wow.

Way to look out for your Community and fellow gamers.

Oh, heres you starting on me.


Huh?

How does your loosing a job or being evicted related to not looking out for your fellow gamers and community?

So because its a game no need to look out for your fellow player and community members?

Selfish much?

Still, wow.

And another aimed at me and nothing to do with the subject.


See, I happen to care about the community and my fellow gamers - why I am an active poster and take part in the community.

May want to go back and re-read the thread, I have been here posting. Nice try playing the victim.


Now we're up to date on what YOU have 'contributed" to this topic.

GOOD JOB!?!? :eek:

Cowdenicus
09-07-2007, 09:46 AM
I'd like to see us keep a portion of our XP from deleted characters.

For example, if I delete a level 5 a percentage4 of that XP would remain in the slot that I just deleted, granted to the next character I create in that slot.

While I am for developing a /respec option, I cannot agree with this suggestion because certain classes just play differently.

Cowdenicus
09-07-2007, 09:49 AM
I dont like it. It makes no sense in a D&D capacity. Experiences of another character, in no way should benefit any other charcter. They didnt fight those monsters, why would they benefit? There is a core set of rules they are working from, this change would make no sense from a D&D standpoint(or is that the point?). I vote no.:)

So you are against 32 point builds?

M1A1
09-07-2007, 09:53 AM
So you are against 32 point builds?

:)

Quarion
09-07-2007, 10:03 AM
Since we've had to visit this thread more than 3 times in the last day or so, it's now closed. Lets keep the flames, insults, and general rudeness to yourselves from now on. k?

-Quarion