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arminius
09-05-2007, 01:23 PM
I play pretty much all paladins, but now have a level 4 cleric. This whole cleric thing is entirely new to me.

One thing that is definitely different about playing a cleric is that, when people die, I feel guilty. If I have mana left, I feel guilty, and if I don't have mana left I still feel guilty for not having mana.

In most of the cases, it hasn't been my actual fault, but usually due to the group splitting up. Sometimes, tho, I get blocked by pillars or corners, and just can't manuever around in time, or they start running around the pillar to get to me and i'm running around to get to them and we're going the same direction and just never meet in time. And one time I was just flat out looking at something else and just missed the plummeting health bar.

Or, another time I was holding off on elemental resists for everyone in an attempt to save mana, and somebody gets blasted to death by a Niacs when I gave that person electric resist only.

Of course, this guilt is really totally irrational. When I play my paladins, if I die I never blame the cleric, and never check to see how much mana they have left, and never blame them if I didn't have all the buffs available in the game all the time. It is completely uncalled for to assume that other people do that when I'm playing cleric.

And, of course, dying is just part of the game, and whether it happens as a result of my mistake or the die-ee's mistake or nobody's mistake, it's going to happen.

I do want to find a way to get over this, before it damages my desire to play a cleric, a class I find fascinating and want to get to know better. "Guilt" is usually not a feature one seeks out in a game one plays for fun. Have any of the rest of you experienced Cleric Guilt Syndrome? How did you get over it? Does it just lessen over time? Do you ever get over it? Is there a support group? ;)

Please advise...

_

turkeymoon
09-05-2007, 01:38 PM
I had the guilt for a long time. I got over it by changing my view of the party. Careless mistakes can't be healed. If your the one making the mistake then guilt galore but if its someone who's - let say....running full bore into a "will die without help" situation without help....death is a lesson. Each party member should be self sufficient to a certain degree. It might help to think of a cleric as that person who picks up the slack from that and doesn't provide the full source of it.

CoolHand_Luke
09-05-2007, 01:49 PM
Yup... I got it too. But what helps me shrug it off is knowing that you are trying, that you cant be everwhere, that the death from niac's is also the fighters responsibility (potions or he could ask).
You will often have this struggle. Who gets rezzed first? Who get the heal while the other dies. Situation happen and well, sometime you will just have to pick up-the soul stones and run as far as you can towards the closest shrine with the hopes that after you get eaten alive like the rest of the party that one of you will be able to make it the rest of the way.
Try to last as long as you can with out using SP, or at least as little as possible until you are almost to or past a shrine. Running your cleric enough you will be able to judge SP comsumption/ specific party for perticular dungeon. It can be expensive with wands but it is always easier to go back to a shrine to "reload" reather than try to make it to the next on running on empty. Plus, after that shrine is cleared you can now go a little heavier on the SP until you are low enough to redo buffs. Redo the buffs in the lull of action, goback shrine... continue on.
Just some of me to you.

And I love playing my clerics BTW

Impaqt
09-05-2007, 02:22 PM
Well, I find there are 2 Kinds of Clerics (Well, Three if you count "BAD" as a "Type")

1 "Motherly" - THe Happy Go lucky Cleric.... She passes Out Buffs like no ones every twinked a character, Makes Sure everyones always Topped up on HP's, Asks the arcanes to wait so they can DV them up. Your General Party BabySitter. This is a Prety low stress way of playing a cleric as your giving giving giving...... You Usually Wind up Flat Broke in the end......

2: "Fatherly" The That'll Learn ya Cleric... He will Provide for a Parties Needs but not if he doesnt know what they are.. What is he? A Mindreader? If you Sprint ahead and get dead, You'll eventualy learn your Lesson.... Whats that Bubbling Glowing red pool over there dad? "Go Play in it and find out for yourself" "AAAAHHHHRRRRGGGGGG.. It Burns! It Burns!!!!" "Well, Maybe you should of asked for a Fire Resist or carried a Pot or CLicky".


I Probobly dont need to say that Feling guilty is silly. Its a Game.... If your just plain bad at Clericing... Stick to what ya do good. I'd rather be in a Party with no Cleric than a Bad one.

arminius
09-05-2007, 02:43 PM
I Probobly dont need to say that Feling guilty is silly. Its a Game.... If your just plain bad at Clericing... Stick to what ya do good. I'd rather be in a Party with no Cleric than a Bad one.

Oh yes, I agree that it is silly. The silliness part is the part that gets me. But just because it is irrational and silly doesn't mean it isn't there and influences me. And I don't think I make a bad cleric, gosh even if I was that little guy is so twinked and obsessively plotted out for maximum everything he could still outheal and outbuff and out-offensive-cast just about any mistake I could make.

I'm just noting this "guilt" thing is an odd emotion to feel in a game that is supposed to be fun. I mean, there are things in the world that can make one feel guilty and are fun (nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what i mean, say no more), but I didn't anticipate DDO being one of them till I met the Cleric Class.

Thought that was remarkable enough to be, you know, remarked upon...

_

Impaqt
09-05-2007, 02:46 PM
Get the 'Tude man.... Get the 'Tude........

PurdueDave
09-05-2007, 02:58 PM
I did on my first character. After playing a lot of others I realized dying was almost always my own stupid fault.

CoolHand_Luke
09-05-2007, 03:07 PM
Well, I find there are 2 Kinds of Clerics (Well, Three if you count "BAD" as a "Type")

1 "Motherly" - THe Happy Go lucky Cleric.... She passes Out Buffs like no ones every twinked a character, Makes Sure everyones always Topped up on HP's, Asks the arcanes to wait so they can DV them up. Your General Party BabySitter. This is a Prety low stress way of playing a cleric as your giving giving giving...... You Usually Wind up Flat Broke in the end......

2: "Fatherly" The That'll Learn ya Cleric... He will Provide for a Parties Needs but not if he doesnt know what they are.. What is he? A Mindreader? If you Sprint ahead and get dead, You'll eventualy learn your Lesson.... Whats that Bubbling Glowing red pool over there dad? "Go Play in it and find out for yourself" "AAAAHHHHRRRRGGGGGG.. It Burns! It Burns!!!!" "Well, Maybe you should of asked for a Fire Resist or carried a Pot or CLicky".


I Probobly dont need to say that Feling guilty is silly. Its a Game.... If your just plain bad at Clericing... Stick to what ya do good. I'd rather be in a Party with no Cleric than a Bad one.

thats right, if a red bar goes down... not your problem, right? heck he should have CSW pots. And also, why take anything personnal. Just a game. Never get exited or happy when you pull uber loot. Never get sad you missed a roll ror raid loot. It's just a game. Don't take anyresonibility for the "role" your character plays... blah blah whatever...is it to you a "good" cleric stands where you want him/her to. Cast that heal on you when you damand one. Don't take initiative, be a slave!!! Be mindless, let the person jump in the lava, why think, why anticipate needs, heck why even play... it just a game>ok i admit there is a line between coddleing and being the "fatherly" person. But to take ownership, even in a game, of your responsibilities to the group is worthwhile. And being flat broke is not a selling point dear sir, for you arguement is that it is just a game right? Oh thats right, the goal, is the fist one to have a gazilloin PP wins... but then again it is just a game...

Impaqt
09-05-2007, 03:15 PM
thats right, if a red bar goes down... not your problem, right? heck he should have CSW pots. And also, why take anything personnal. Just a game. Never get exited or happy when you pull uber loot. Never get sad you missed a roll ror raid loot. It's just a game. Don't take anyresonibility for the "role" your character plays... blah blah whatever...is it to you a "good" cleric stands where you want him/her to. Cast that heal on you when you damand one. Don't take initiative, be a slave!!! Be mindless, let the person jump in the lava, why think, why anticipate needs, heck why even play... it just a game>ok i admit there is a line between coddleing and being the "fatherly" person. But to take ownership, even in a game, of your responsibilities to the group is worthwhile. And being flat broke is not a selling point dear sir, for you arguement is that it is just a game right? Oh thats right, the goal, is the fist one to have a gazilloin PP wins... but then again it is just a game...

OMG, What the H-E Double Hockey Sticks are you talking about?

I'm sorry the satire in my Post completely went over your head..... But the fact remains that if people insist on Running ahead of the group and taking Zero Responsibility for their own characters, there is NOTHING the cleric should be expected to do about it. I pass out Buffs as Requested.... Why should I throw a greater Resists on someone who already has a Ring or Cloak? Gross waste of Mana...... SoF on somene who already has a Protection 5 Item?

Please give me a Buff that I can provide that a Player cannot obtain via Items...... I'll keep a Party Recitated, and even throw out a Mass Aid on occasion without being asked.... But thats about it.... I'm sorry, but most characters can survive just fine with their health bars 75-90% Full... If you feel the need to be at 100% Health. Drink a Pot......

IMO Playing the "Fatherly" cleric build better players.....

Kalanth
09-05-2007, 03:32 PM
Well, I find there are 2 Kinds of Clerics (Well, Three if you count "BAD" as a "Type")

1 "Motherly" - THe Happy Go lucky Cleric.... She passes Out Buffs like no ones every twinked a character, Makes Sure everyones always Topped up on HP's, Asks the arcanes to wait so they can DV them up. Your General Party BabySitter. This is a Prety low stress way of playing a cleric as your giving giving giving...... You Usually Wind up Flat Broke in the end......

2: "Fatherly" The That'll Learn ya Cleric... He will Provide for a Parties Needs but not if he doesnt know what they are.. What is he? A Mindreader? If you Sprint ahead and get dead, You'll eventualy learn your Lesson.... Whats that Bubbling Glowing red pool over there dad? "Go Play in it and find out for yourself" "AAAAHHHHRRRRGGGGGG.. It Burns! It Burns!!!!" "Well, Maybe you should of asked for a Fire Resist or carried a Pot or CLicky".

Oh dear god... Even though I am not afraid to wade into a battle and swing my weapon, but now I am realizing that I am a "Motherly" style cleric... I always carried 1000 charges and 200 heal scrolls while ensuring no one ever went below 3/4 health. Time to learn to be the 'Fatherly' type.

Alvian_Naivla
09-05-2007, 04:01 PM
Yea, I feel guilty from time-to-time, mixed in with a bit of anger and frustration. Some time characters die, and there's just not one thing you can do about it as a cleric. Most of the time, people are pretty cool about it.

It's the rare occasions that get me. You know, those "freak" things that occur at the last min.. Everything is going great, group has jelled, you're at the end, then one thing goes wrong, and you have a few people in your group acting nuts over it.

Now, I'm not speaking of PoP groups, or raids...nope..not the big boys, but silly things like STK. THOSE groups. Everyone in the group has an alt, everyone in the group knows the end boss pushes everyone out of the way. We know it, we discuss it, and at the last min. your spindly hinie gets pushed just enough out of the way that the caster gets smacked down...at the same time she lands the killing blow?

All the sudden you're a "stupid newb," get a five min. ranting tell lecture, from the caster who just did /death, got re-healed, only lost 200 xp after earning 2k, when you're trying to be nice, and appoligize? As well as explain, that this is an alt, you know all about stk, it's not your fault you got shoved by a 20 foot great axe, and I'm sitting here wondering why I'm not yelling back, leaving the group, or just laughing at the "ha-ha," of it all.

Guilt. Every game I make a cleric...every game, I feel guilty about every death.

Knowing you're in control of five other virtual lives has it's guilt factor.

QuantumFX
09-05-2007, 04:10 PM
As another "Just starting to play a cleric" player my opinion is if the party puts undue pressure on me to keep them "hjeeled" then they deserve to die - often.

But then again when I play on my other characters I blame myself (or lag issues) if I get killed.

If the other party members can use wands then I'm under no obligation to protect them from whatever they can wand whip/pot themselves out of. (ie. Oh look the ranger died from a niacs. Hmm... you know they sell resist energy wands in the red tent right?)

CoolHand_Luke
09-05-2007, 04:28 PM
If i sound a little harsh I guess it is becaus I fall into another type or catagory. It is proactive. I ask who needs what... and remember by character. I try to keep track of how long till the buffs wear out. I will throw a buff to anyone who calls for it. I don't top off usually, @85-95% is good to go with me. I reconize that my sp is not only mine but the parties, I am just the keeper of it. Consumables are mine unless donated. I try to anticipate the actions of the party. A mind reader, it helps. I know how many friends play and I know what they are going to do, or not do. If one zergs ahead, sure, he is taking his life into his own hands. I hold my DV's from some (knowing they will burn through it) until later. (I have one guildie I have to do this for, he's great player and loves to nuke!) and others I will tell them I got some and let me know when they want it. I can and do zerg. I play the parties speed. I see it as everone's responsibility to not only take of yourself the best you can but also the other characters, all the while getting better at the game.

So I have to disagree that if one is not so good at "clercing" to stink with what you are good at.

If you want to do a cleric, try, ask questions, fail...learn and try again; to discorage anyone with a general interest to become a cleric is wrong. Admittly clerics are not "needed", but going through a quest with needing to drink 1 pot, or use 1 wand is cheaper than sucking down those pots. Clerics provide that. So that I suppose is my main reason I get defenseive on clerics. Very seldom does CSW pot addicted people concede to that.

rant off

Casta
09-05-2007, 04:33 PM
2: "Fatherly" The That'll Learn ya Cleric... He will Provide for a Parties Needs but not if he doesnt know what they are.. What is he? A Mindreader? If you Sprint ahead and get dead, You'll eventualy learn your Lesson.... Whats that Bubbling Glowing red pool over there dad? "Go Play in it and find out for yourself" "AAAAHHHHRRRRGGGGGG.. It Burns! It Burns!!!!" "Well, Maybe you should of asked for a Fire Resist or carried a Pot or CLicky".



That discribes me perfectly. I havent felt guilty about anyone iv let die yet, they have mostly been wf so far.

If its my falt they died I might feel a little bad but having played a ton of fighters and a sorc and rogue I know most groups don't care if they die once or twice as long as theres not a group wipe, and there has never been a group wipe iv seen I would blame on the cleric, most of the times its a bad pull, the group got split up or the group just tryed to do something they coulden't handle.

Impaqt
09-05-2007, 04:39 PM
Sorry.. Asking "WHo needs Fire Resistacne" is just as bad as passing them out without asking.... Even though the Figter may have a Greater Resist cloak he'll say "Sure, I'll take one as long as your passin em out" to save himself a click or 2.... Bah.. FOrget that.....

Had to give a guildy a hard time the other night.... Kept harpin me for resists.. I want this, I need that.. "sheesh... did ya just start playin this game? Wheres your resist items???" Got a good laugh I must say......

There MUCH more to this game than watching little red bars and keeping track of timers.....

Frodo_Lives
09-05-2007, 05:50 PM
I pass out buffs, and try to keep everyone up near full on the little red bars. I don't use a ton of wands or scrolls, and I cast only the best buffs. I fall in the middle of the mother/father style, more like the big brother. I'll help ya, but only as much as I can afford to with my mana pool.

I very rarely feel bad if someone dies where it is their fault, but if it was preventable then I tend to get annoyed at myself that I wasn't a little quicker on the buttons and the guilt creeps in a bit.

I was running a PoP elite run and hit a ton of lag in one of the rooms ( I think it was the maralith room) and couldn't do much. Half the party died and I felt awful. Apoligized for the lag and they were fine with it (I'm on Kyber), no one thought twice about a bit of xp loss. That is the way to treat the cleric if you die, I have never freaked out on anyone in game for any reason. Not at the cleric who let us all die cause he wasn't paying attention, and not at the over aggroing moron that caused the party wipe.

CoolHand_Luke
09-05-2007, 05:54 PM
So why even carry resists? oh yeah its all about me!

Impaqt
09-05-2007, 06:07 PM
So why even carry resists? oh yeah its all about me!

Because there isnt another 2nd level spell that is more useful....

as I said.. I'm more than happy to hand out resists to those that ask and need them....

Try this to drive my point home....

Walk into a Quest with a Pug.... make it something pretty common that everyone knows.. Lets say PoP....

Announce

"WHo needs a Sonic Resist?"

See how many take you up on your offer......

Do the melee guys really need 14 Minutes of Acid and FIre Resist "Just in case" they get Burning Blood? Fact is, Most of the Wizards are dead before they have a chance to cast it. I see to it.....

Cold Reist is the only resist you ned at the beginning of the quest.... and an Improved Cold Resist ring or Cloak is all you need to nullify the Drows Cold Sheild.....

Oh.. and my groups do the Beholder room First.. SO no.. The fire resist doesnt make it to the Fire room.

CoolHand_Luke
09-05-2007, 06:18 PM
<<<agreed on the sonic in POP with pug

very viable...

and yes, if you know the quest, as a cleric, I would ask why would they need sonic in that situation

as for the Ring we'll maybe they have two rings and cloak already on that cover other things as well as the other resits you wont give them. And besided if it isnt a uber resist item, it gets trivial to even have on at times.

Confused... What is a clerics role in a party?

Impaqt
09-05-2007, 06:32 PM
<<<agreed on the sonic in POP with pug

very viable...

and yes, if you know the quest, as a cleric, I would ask why would they need sonic in that situation

as for the Ring we'll maybe they have two rings and cloak already on that cover other things as well as the other resits you wont give them. And besided if it isnt a uber resist item, it gets trivial to even have on at times.

Confused... What is a clerics role in a party?

You'd be surprised how many MORE spell points you have when you dont volunteer Buffs.... Its also quite amazing how many Resist acid clikies go off when someone does contract buring blood..... I have a L1 Resist wand I carry with Resist acid onmy hotbar..... If someone gets Buring blood,, I hit em with that.... If they dont fix themselves in a few seconds.

Please name me a quest where you need more than 2 Greater Resists at the same time.... Heck.. How bout more than one...... Reavers Fate.... Electric sonic and Acid are nice to have up..... I'm happy to pass out one or all.....(I'm gettin my Spell Ponts back anyway) Other than that.. our characters simply arent getting hit with multiple elemental attacks at the same time very often.... Sure casters occationally wil go between Cold and Fire.. but not too often.

Whats a clerics Role?
I guess that depends on the party.... My Role is to keep the party alive... To me that generally menas Netralizing threats before they can do any damage. THose threats are primarily Casters and clerics..... I make sure they are dead, Stunned, or otherwise incapacitated.....

CoolHand_Luke
09-05-2007, 06:57 PM
and how does a lowbie do that?

Blazer
09-05-2007, 07:05 PM
Soundburst usually works well as a lowbie on enemy casters.

Impaqt
09-05-2007, 07:25 PM
Soundburst usually works well as a lowbie on enemy casters.

As does Command, Hold Person, and Cause Fear....

CoolHand_Luke
09-05-2007, 07:33 PM
agreed those spell work good, so you would say your an offensive cleric?

Impaqt
09-05-2007, 07:37 PM
agreed those spell work good, so you would say your an offensive cleric?


Alandale is in the process of being respeced to a full Nullification Build.

Allendale is an offensive caster speced build... With a little mele splashed in.

Cayrie
09-05-2007, 08:28 PM
Well, I for one understand the OP's guilt. Just do what you can. Mistakes happen all the time. It's a bit more obvious when the cleric makes one, but meh, keep it in perspective. I find that when someone dies in one of my parties, they either contributed to their own death, or they didn't go all ballistic on me because I missed a heal. 9 times out of 10 I've cast the heal but it doesn't go off before their death. Stuff just happens, you will gain more confidence as you level and the guilt will dissipate.

As to the whole "motherly/fatherly" cleric discussion...By your description, I'm without a doubt the "motherly" type. In fact, I like full health bars all the time. I mean full. I mean I'll wand whip until I see perfect red bars. When I pop into a dungeon, I always throw out the resists I think will be beneficial in a quest, and I tell my party members to let me know if they DON'T need a resist, otherwise I will assume they do need them. Oh I get told all the time that I'm wasting money, I don't need to top off, I don't need to buff, but I don't care. (Fortunately, I rarely PUG anymore and my guildies have made peace with it.) Regardless, that's how I like playing my cleric, and that's what I do. I go through wands, heal scrolls and cure mass scrolls. Yeah, it's a lot of money. Fortunately my other girls make enough money to flip to my cleric. What do I need all that money for anyway? It's just sitting there.

Oh sure, go ahead, laugh, make your assumptions about the kind of player I am. I don't care. I'll keep on playing the way I like to play, just as every other player should. Suggesting someone do otherwise is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as pigeonholing clerics into two types of players, and suggesting that one method is superior to another...

CoolHand_Luke
09-05-2007, 09:47 PM
I think I take others death a bit personally because I am not used to seeing party members die....

I suppose one would get used to it and stop taking it personnel.

Albiet true... alot of deaths are thier own fault ,but I do get a sense of satisfaction when I can save one from their self.

Different people measure success in diferent ways. When you get capped you kinda loose the sting of death, and used to many possible ways for others to raise you. Not to mention the reuse of rez shrines... ahh the good old days when they were 1 use.:rolleyes:

Impaqt
09-05-2007, 11:14 PM
Ya gotta admit I'm pretty close on the catagories though.. Even if they were in Jest...

Second, I have to point out that I NEVER said one was Superior to another..... I just stated that I would fall into the fatherly type.. WHen I'm on my Melee toons, i certainly dont mind being at Full Health and full of Resists all the time....

Kalanth
09-05-2007, 11:20 PM
Took a reverse tally on your challenge, Impaqt. While in a dragon raid as people prepared to fight the golem, and again with the dragon, the cleric asked who needed Fire / Sonic. To a man, everyone said they did. When we fought the dragon, the cleric cast it 14 times extended... 25 mintues of fire protection to take down the dragon on normal? And just seconds after the party leader said don't waist mana?

I laughed, a lot, when I realized that what you said was completely true.

Yvonne_Blacksword
09-05-2007, 11:51 PM
...
death guilt makes my Juin drink too much...

/hand arminius a major mneumonic
/throws one back.
:(

Grenfell
09-06-2007, 08:12 AM
If i sound a little harsh I guess it is becaus I fall into another type or catagory. It is proactive. I ask who needs what... and remember by character. I try to keep track of how long till the buffs wear out. I will throw a buff to anyone who calls for it. I don't top off usually, @85-95% is good to go with me. I reconize that my sp is not only mine but the parties, I am just the keeper of it.

That's not even the "motherly" cleric. That's the "slave" cleric. Your SP is not yours, but the party's?

You're right about falling into another type of category.

I'm sure your parties love you -- after all, who doesn't love a slave waiting on them hand and foot?

Playstyle thing, I guess -- I get enough of being a slave to someone else with my kids....

/gren

Sojourner
09-06-2007, 08:25 AM
Well, I find there are 2 Kinds of Clerics (Well, Three if you count "BAD" as a "Type")

1 "Motherly" - THe Happy Go lucky Cleric.... She passes Out Buffs like no ones every twinked a character, Makes Sure everyones always Topped up on HP's, Asks the arcanes to wait so they can DV them up. Your General Party BabySitter. This is a Prety low stress way of playing a cleric as your giving giving giving...... You Usually Wind up Flat Broke in the end......

2: "Fatherly" The That'll Learn ya Cleric... He will Provide for a Parties Needs but not if he doesnt know what they are.. What is he? A Mindreader? If you Sprint ahead and get dead, You'll eventualy learn your Lesson.... Whats that Bubbling Glowing red pool over there dad? "Go Play in it and find out for yourself" "AAAAHHHHRRRRGGGGGG.. It Burns! It Burns!!!!" "Well, Maybe you should of asked for a Fire Resist or carried a Pot or CLicky".



LOL -- Thats awesome!! One of the best (and most accurate) descriptions of cleric types I've seen yet.


As to the guilt thing -- It is something you eventually have to learn to let go. I imagine it is the same thing with real-world doctors and nurses -- the more empathic and emotional you are, the less suited you are to the job (up to a certain point, you want them to have at least some empathy for you). Making the life-or-death decisions has to be stressful, and even more so for someone who takes every decision personally.

Cleric'ing is a hard profession if you take the deaths personally. Take a look at the [url=http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=119506]Healing Priority[url] thread. Fighter and caster both near death - next fireball is going to kill them both. You have time for one heal spell. Who gets it? Regardless of what the actual answer is - the decision making process itself is the hard part.


.

Riddikulus
09-06-2007, 08:40 AM
Lets say PoP....

Announce

"WHo needs a Sonic Resist?"

See how many take you up on your offer......
Isn't sonic useful in the Marut room?

I usually hit the melee with death ward & sonic in that room. Maybe I've been wasting mana?

Impaqt
09-06-2007, 08:46 AM
Isn't sonic useful in the Marut room?

I usually hit the melee with death ward & sonic in that room. Maybe I've been wasting mana?

I dont remeber the last time the Marut Survived long enough to do his Sonic blast tthing....

Gennerik
09-06-2007, 09:17 AM
Just go out and fight something (or a lot of somethings) that are really hard (overpowering, even) and see that no matter what you do, you just can't keep up with the healing all the time. It's even better if it results in a party wipe, no matter how much healing that you do. Then you see that sometimes things just get so bad that no matter how good of a Cleric you may be, you can't handle every situation, and sometimes monsters just get lucky (critical hits, etc).

Grenfell
09-06-2007, 11:23 AM
Ya gotta admit I'm pretty close on the catagories though.. Even if they were in Jest...

Second, I have to point out that I NEVER said one was Superior to another..... I just stated that I would fall into the fatherly type.. WHen I'm on my Melee toons, i certainly dont mind being at Full Health and full of Resists all the time....

Impaqt has not, but I will. :D

Mothering clerics are bad for the game. When I'm on my melees, I realize that my play gets sloppy around mothering clerics -- who cares if I'm reckless, someone is there to wipe my nose. Why worry about having Blindness Ward on, or carry any potions -- all I have to do is call out, "I'm blind" and someone is there to take care of it.

In high-end groups with people who have specific roles, that you trust, you can back off the tough-love somewhat, but they already know what they're doing.

It's early on, during low/mid level play where the mother-goose clerics ruin many a player for later on in their career.

/gren

Mad_Bombardier
09-06-2007, 11:29 AM
Gren has it spot on that "bumwiping nursemaid" clerics are bad for the game.

I like to play "mother hen" for the party by using my Fighter's multitude of clickies. Saves some Cleric mana for casting and emergencies. But as my Cleric? "Father knows best." :D

Strakeln
09-06-2007, 11:41 AM
I started a cleric recently, he's currently just under level 10. Impaqt may need to add a category as a result... the zerging cleric.

There are two types of players I've run into recently that get on my nerves: 1) The people oblivious to the "cleric tether"; and 2) the people waaaay too aware of the cleric tether, to the point that they refuse to move 5 feet without turning around to make sure you're on their tail.

As a result, I keep finding my cleric in the front of the pack, trying to encourage the party to get moving. If you keep finding your cleric in front of your main tank, you need to pick up the pace! After all, it's my money that will be getting burned if we zerg too hard!

Zenako
09-06-2007, 12:08 PM
Gheesh, Clerics can and should be on the front line where the action is. Especially in the low to mid levels.

Cleric quilt...sometimes a little pang...but generally have gotten past that.

Perhaps we should add to the list with the "Crazy Aunt/Uncle Cleric". The one who can and does do things you might not expect of the class, but somehow is always fun to be around and gets things done. Need to dopeslap the zergers, find a nice way to tell someone they are being foolish. Need to crack some mob's heads, pound away and glance at the health bars.

Personal responsibility goes a long way. Heal in battle if needed, but not to the detriment of the group. Save those who can be saved, but there is no Cure Spell for Stupid. We cannot and do not heal Stupid. Cajole those Palys and Rangers into casting some resists around. They probably work just as well as yours do, and most Palys and Rangers get so wrapped up in battle once things start happening that they have no time for other spells.

Aunt and Uncles tend to give you a LOT more leeway to finding your own path, but will keep you from going over the deep end.....most of the time.

Strakeln
09-06-2007, 12:55 PM
Gheesh, Clerics can and should be on the front line where the action is. Especially in the low to mid levels.There's a difference between "being on the front line" and "being the first into battle". I've had a lot of cases where I finally get the tank-types to move in front of me, only to have them run and hide behind me when they encounter a mob. Sure, I can take care of it, but that costs mana, mana that I used to buff the cowardly fighter so that he could take care of it for me.

I was hoping to make a "zerg enabler", but I keep finding myself having to push the fighters into battle. It's funny, but annoying... if I wanted to lead the pack, I'd have made another barbarian.

Hvymetal
09-06-2007, 09:29 PM
There's a difference between "being on the front line" and "being the first into battle". I've had a lot of cases where I finally get the tank-types to move in front of me, only to have them run and hide behind me when they encounter a mob. Sure, I can take care of it, but that costs mana, mana that I used to buff the cowardly fighter so that he could take care of it for me.

I was hoping to make a "zerg enabler", but I keep finding myself having to push the fighters into battle. It's funny, but annoying... if I wanted to lead the pack, I'd have made another barbarian.
Strakeln I've noticed some odd behaivor on Khyber lately as well anyone else notice it on other servers? Lower level tanks seem to hesitate fairly often now and wait for someone else to start the engagement, I've noticed this especially on my rogish characters cause I am waiting for them to grab aggro so I can start sneak attacking.

CoolHand_Luke
09-07-2007, 06:23 AM
That's not even the "motherly" cleric. That's the "slave" cleric. Your SP is not yours, but the party's?

You're right about falling into another type of category.

I'm sure your parties love you -- after all, who doesn't love a slave waiting on them hand and foot?

Playstyle thing, I guess -- I get enough of being a slave to someone else with my kids....

/gren

But is it any different than a fighter keeping aggro off the casters and clerics? Is that not "motherly" or is it being a slave? or is it taking care of other party members. Oh, BTW I play my parties as I would want others to as well. And if that is motherly to all of you... so be it... if I don't enjoy others deaths in a narcisitic way... so be it. If I take pity of those with bad luck, lack of knowledge, of poor nintendo skills let is be. I know at the end of a quest I did all that I could do and appearently MORE than others are willing to do to ensure the most positive outcomes and goal acheivement.

I vote be proactive... and let other party members that there was a better way... To let them swim in lave is as ignorant as swimming in it yourselves. Kinda riminds of the slogan "Friends don't let friends drive Drunk" Can this be applied here?

CoolHand_Luke
09-07-2007, 06:48 AM
I like the crazy aunt/uncle idea. I probably fall into that catagory. Honestly this thread has me thinking about how I play my cleric... things I want to keep and things I might want to try.
....after deep thought... meditation.... and yoga......

For instance... I am a lazy cleric. I like to throw out the buffs ahead of time so I don't have to worry about someone screamin.... owweee... I got burning blood. The screams of one on fire is intolerable.

I am impatient cleric...If the group is not moving fast enough I will go and pull mobs to the fighters. Kinda like a younger brother picking fights that the big brother has to finish.

I am an understanding cleric... I do not know all the fine details of this game. I do know know what will get me the absolute maxxed effect out of something... nore do I care too (see above about being lazy) I like to try differnt things to see what happens (see cray aunt/uncle). I also know that there are people out there just as if not more inept / incompentent / inexerienced, unknowledgable as I am and was. I expect it, and don't get mad or frustrated about it. I relate and remember.

I remember stopping and picking up every collectable I could (thought they were worth something, and they were then, and are now, just not worth my time or loss of space to me now).

Am I the, have gotta have the best type? No... but I got some really cool stuff that others would love to have.

Am I perfect, no.

Do I accept so responsibility of party wipes deaths, and such, yes, do I loose sleep no. Do I try to figure out what I could have done differently to have generated out a different and better outcome yes.

A slave no... parties SP... yes. But I guess that is just my not-so-greediness approach. For I also consider that fighters sword the parties, that wizzards spellbook the parties. If not... to expect anything out of any one else is foolish.

To expect a sorc to come to a dungeon with no SP is foolish. The party expects it and heck...

along some line of thinking ,it's his SP and if doesn't want to bring full bar that is his perogrative,

..... oh i get it... that would cause chaos which is well chaotic.....

need more meditation BRB

Strakeln
09-07-2007, 09:48 AM
Strakeln I've noticed some odd behaivor on Khyber lately as well anyone else notice it on other servers? Lower level tanks seem to hesitate fairly often now and wait for someone else to start the engagement, I've noticed this especially on my rogish characters cause I am waiting for them to grab aggro so I can start sneak attacking.Yeah, this was all low-level behavior, although I am not sure why. Did some GH runs last night with my little cleric, the tanks acted like they were supposed to.

Funny you mention seeing it on your rogish characters, I've noticed the rogue-types getting frustrated with the sissy tanks and try to show them how to rush into battle. The problem is, then the tanks start hiding behind the rogue, which is no good at all... it's tough keeping someone with 60-80 HP alive. Red bars start looking like graphic equalizers.

Eudimio
09-07-2007, 11:11 AM
Strakeln I've noticed some odd behaivor on Khyber lately as well anyone else notice it on other servers? Lower level tanks seem to hesitate fairly often now and wait for someone else to start the engagement, I've noticed this especially on my rogish characters cause I am waiting for them to grab aggro so I can start sneak attacking.

Yeah, I've noticed that in Khyber also. I think a lot of less-experienced players get shellshocked by grouping with so many twinkers. A lot of people can get rude when they're just using a party to power-level. So it's best to stand out of thier way.

Ringos
09-07-2007, 02:27 PM
Impaqt has not, but I will. :D

Mothering clerics are bad for the game. When I'm on my melees, I realize that my play gets sloppy around mothering clerics -- who cares if I'm reckless, someone is there to wipe my nose. Why worry about having Blindness Ward on, or carry any potions -- all I have to do is call out, "I'm blind" and someone is there to take care of it.

In high-end groups with people who have specific roles, that you trust, you can back off the tough-love somewhat, but they already know what they're doing.

It's early on, during low/mid level play where the mother-goose clerics ruin many a player for later on in their career.

/gren

So, using that logic, wouldn't fighters that kill quickly and don't lose a lot of life be ruining the cleric for later on? Just asking. And, if someone's play get's sloppy because others were to 'motherly', I would say that it's their own fault. If someone yells out 'I'm blind' etc., I take care of business...just the way I play, not right or wrong i guess.

Frodo_Lives
09-07-2007, 07:40 PM
When on my cleric I'll spend my sp on whatever will help the party the most, be it offensive spells, buffs, or heals. It all depends on the party and the situation.

What I don't do is lord it over the group that I am the cleric so I will tell everyone what to do and how to do it. I mean really, the point of playing a cleric is not to show the other members of the party that they don't need a cleric cause you refuse to use your mana on them. Using your sp to heal and buff/resist the party is not being "motherly" or ruining other players any more than playing your songs are as a bard. It makes the others better at what they do, and if they get careless and stupid because of overconfidence I really don't see how that is due to the cleric rather than the individual.

Grenfell
09-08-2007, 12:19 PM
So, using that logic, wouldn't fighters that kill quickly and don't lose a lot of life be ruining the cleric for later on? Just asking. And, if someone's play get's sloppy because others were to 'motherly', I would say that it's their own fault. If someone yells out 'I'm blind' etc., I take care of business...just the way I play, not right or wrong i guess.

Actually, I'm suggesting that it is in fact wrong. I know we're never supposed to say someone else's opinion is wrong, but... well, let's agree that I'm a rude boy.

You taking care of that fighter's blindness means that fighter never learns to carry a stack of Remove Blindness potions. Those are easily available, and yet people know not to carry them. It may be just the way you play but it results in sloppy players and affects the rest of us.

Fighters killing quickly has no bearing on cleric's play; at least if we're being clerics, instead of healbots. Am I going to forget to heal because fighters are killing fast? Not a chance.

But am I noticing my own play getting sloppy with a healbot cleric in group? Yes. For a fact.

/gren

Ringos
09-10-2007, 11:34 AM
Actually, I'm suggesting that it is in fact wrong. I know we're never supposed to say someone else's opinion is wrong, but... well, let's agree that I'm a rude boy.

You taking care of that fighter's blindness means that fighter never learns to carry a stack of Remove Blindness potions. Those are easily available, and yet people know not to carry them. It may be just the way you play but it results in sloppy players and affects the rest of us.

Fighters killing quickly has no bearing on cleric's play; at least if we're being clerics, instead of healbots. Am I going to forget to heal because fighters are killing fast? Not a chance.

But am I noticing my own play getting sloppy with a healbot cleric in group? Yes. For a fact.

/gren


It's a player's own fault if they get sloppy because they have a 'healbot' cleric, not the cleric's. If you get sloppy, blame yourself...it's personal responsibility. "Sorry I ran ahead, dies and caused a party-wipe, but that f#@^ing cleric just kept healing me! It's not MY fault!"

I'll heal all that need it, remove any ill my party has and do it with a good attitude. I've never had someone tell me that I've made them a worse player, quite the opposite in fact. They find that they can kill a lot better when they don't have to worry...doesn't make them sloppy though.

Well, we'll just play our own ways I guess.

Hvymetal
09-10-2007, 11:43 AM
Actually, I'm suggesting that it is in fact wrong. I know we're never supposed to say someone else's opinion is wrong, but... well, let's agree that I'm a rude boy.

You taking care of that fighter's blindness means that fighter never learns to carry a stack of Remove Blindness potions. Those are easily available, and yet people know not to carry them. It may be just the way you play but it results in sloppy players and affects the rest of us.

Fighters killing quickly has no bearing on cleric's play; at least if we're being clerics, instead of healbots. Am I going to forget to heal because fighters are killing fast? Not a chance.

But am I noticing my own play getting sloppy with a healbot cleric in group? Yes. For a fact.

/gren
So does the fact that my pally carries remove blindness/curse/disease wands and a lesser resto wand & tries to get a jump on the cleric mean I am a "Nannybot" Paladin & am contributing to others sloppy habits and poor play? Now I might have to provide some "tough love" on my Pally :D :p

Impaqt
09-10-2007, 12:39 PM
So does the fact that my pally carries remove blindness/curse/disease wands and a lesser resto wand & tries to get a jump on the cleric mean I am a "Nannybot" Paladin & am contributing to others sloppy habits and poor play? Now I might have to provide some "tough love" on my Pally :D :p

Yes and No.. It also means your prepared to take care of yourself if you are inflicted....

Do you Keep an eye out for the Blindness icon or the sound of being diseased? Do you stop what your doing to Fix someones blindness when they should be wearing Bindness Imunity or chuggin an inexpensive Pot?

I have all the wands on my Null Cleric.... I just dont stop what I'm doing to put a band-aid on everyone... It may be a few seconds.. Or even after the battle is complete before I get to ya.

Theadora
09-10-2007, 01:22 PM
Cleric guilt? Used to have it. Now, not as much. It depends on the situation. If you were being stupid, well...not at all. What you might hear is "You know....going that far ahead to try to fascinate a group of baddies in the Gianthold is not a great idea because you will be out of range. Oops. You died? " insert giggle here......

the guilt was severe in the beginning. It may be from being a mommy to a 4yr old and a 2 yr old. Now though, it is more like "Did you do something that I told you not to and then got hurt? Don't do it again. It will hurt more"

I went from nannybot to offensive caster to now playing a fighting cleric. It has been a wonderful progression.

Hvymetal
09-10-2007, 01:25 PM
Yes and No.. It also means your prepared to take care of yourself if you are inflicted....

Do you Keep an eye out for the Blindness icon or the sound of being diseased? Do you stop what your doing to Fix someones blindness when they should be wearing Bindness Imunity or chuggin an inexpensive Pot?

I have all the wands on my Null Cleric.... I just dont stop what I'm doing to put a band-aid on everyone... It may be a few seconds.. Or even after the battle is complete before I get to ya.
Well I won't stop fighting but if we're standing there and I hear someone is diseased yea I might ummm you know ummm check and see who it is and throw a quick remove on the poor disease ridden bastard :o I am ummm you know just trying to be a good Paladin and help out the less fortunate than myself:) And yea if I see someone has a curse on em or blindness I might ummmm kinda take care of that too because well ummm ok ok it gives me a feeling of power and control to know that their little minus 4 to hit's are within MY power to remove.... ummm so I guess the answer is yes or maybe a psychotic meglomaniac:)