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View Full Version : Grease seems inconsistent



MageOfSoma
09-05-2007, 01:07 AM
On most spells (burning hands, web etc) it only affects enemies, not friendlies.

Grease, however, affects friendlies -- but only when cast by a toon.

If a mob casts grease, it doesnt (seem to) affect (their buddies, aka baddies)... Why is that?

It seems to me, being a magic spell, grease should NOT affect friendlies; it should be the dex equiv of web.

But if it does affect friendlies (which would make it unique among most spells, which don't affect friendlies), then, when the baddies cast it, it should affect baddies too

MoS

Dingo123
09-05-2007, 01:53 AM
On most spells (burning hands, web etc) it only affects enemies, not friendlies.

Grease, however, affects friendlies -- but only when cast by a toon.

If a mob casts grease, it doesnt (seem to) affect (their buddies, aka baddies)... Why is that?

It seems to me, being a magic spell, grease should NOT affect friendlies; it should be the dex equiv of web.

But if it does affect friendlies (which would make it unique among most spells, which don't affect friendlies), then, when the baddies cast it, it should affect baddies too

MoS

So does sleetstorm if I recall correctly.

These spells affect friendlies because if they didn't they would be unbelievably ridiculously powerful.

Think on it. A level 14 Sorc mass casting friendly grease left and right.

Now think about sleetstorm with its various effects as well.

And yeah.

Want to talk about a must have spell?

Lithic
09-05-2007, 02:10 AM
Grease DOES affect enemies when cast by enemies. The only enemies that cast it though are metal doggies though. If you run through proof in the poison, lots of times the dogs will grease and the casters fall on their butt, while our party laughs hehe.

As for sleetstorm, head to swiped signet on hard (elite as well) and watch the casters make their friends fall over. Or at least you can watch them if you arent blinded :P

Lorien_the_First_One
09-05-2007, 06:45 AM
So does sleetstorm if I recall correctly.

These spells affect friendlies because if they didn't they would be unbelievably ridiculously powerful.

Think on it. A level 14 Sorc mass casting friendly grease left and right.

Now think about sleetstorm with its various effects as well.

And yeah.

Want to talk about a must have spell?

That's a poor reason. Firewall should be a minor defensive spell, its a killer spell because we removed the friendly fire impact from the game.

Acid fog/solid fog are arguably also just as powerful as grease if not more so and once agian, no friendly fire.

It's just odd behavior....

Citymorg
09-05-2007, 09:50 AM
I want my grease to be flamable, cast grease, hit with a scorching ray/fireball and Kablewy everything goes up in flames. Just my little bit of fun.

Mad_Bombardier
09-05-2007, 10:00 AM
The thing thats REALLY inconsistent about Grease is that players are slowed and make 6-8 Reflex saves to cross the oilslick. And if the Grease is on a slope, then you cannot proceed at all (sometimes you can with Haste/Striding). Mobs will cross it at normal speed, even uphill, and only need to make 1 or 2 saves.

Missing_Minds
09-05-2007, 10:03 AM
The thing thats REALLY inconsistent about Grease is that players are slowed and make 6-8 Reflex saves to cross the oilslick. And if the Grease is on a slope, then you cannot proceed at all (sometimes you can with Haste/Striding). Mobs will cross it at normal speed, even uphill, and only need to make 1 or 2 saves.

This is the reason why grease is inconsistent. It unfairly targets PCs. Also notice how NPCs can attack when they should be swiming/drowning?

Memnir
09-05-2007, 10:11 AM
Most of the time I run A Matter of Information out of the Lobster - the Iron Defenders trip up the human rogues with them more often as they do me when they do their Grease Vomit thing.

As far as being inconsistent goes-
I agree with Mad's point about move speed. NPCs are not slowed by it at all as we are. It's like they all have Lesser Spiked Boots that won't prevent a knock-down - but maintain traction if they stay up. I want those on my lowbies, too!
I also don't think that metal dogs should be immune to their own grease - since PC casters are not immune to their own slicks. If we can play slip-n-slide in our own Grease - then they should be subject to the same rules. The Grease Vomit is a Turbine addition to the monster, but it should not be immune if we aren't.

Mad_Bombardier
09-05-2007, 10:17 AM
I also don't think that metal dogs should be immune to their own grease - since PC casters are not immune to their own slicks. If we can play slip-n-slide in our own Grease - then they should be subject to the same rules. The Grease Vomit is a Turbine addition to the monster, but it should not be immune if we aren't.Defender dogs I can understand. The artificer made them all with spiked paws so they wouldn't succumb to their own attacks. Similarly, a prepared caster can wear spiked boots or buff with Freedom of Movement before casting Grease.

Another inconsistency note, I want to be able to use projectile Grease like the Defenders. Have you seen how far they can spray!?! :eek: My Grease spell always appears somewhere near my feet. :(

jkm
09-05-2007, 10:28 AM
you still slide on grease with freedom of movement.

Wizzly_Bear
09-05-2007, 10:28 AM
That's a poor reason. Firewall should be a minor defensive spell, its a killer spell because we removed the friendly fire impact from the game.

Acid fog/solid fog are arguably also just as powerful as grease if not more so and once agian, no friendly fire.

It's just odd behavior....


I want my grease to be flamable, cast grease, hit with a scorching ray/fireball and Kablewy everything goes up in flames. Just my little bit of fun.


The thing thats REALLY inconsistent about Grease is that players are slowed and make 6-8 Reflex saves to cross the oilslick. And if the Grease is on a slope, then you cannot proceed at all (sometimes you can with Haste/Striding). Mobs will cross it at normal speed, even uphill, and only need to make 1 or 2 saves.


This is the reason why grease is inconsistent. It unfairly targets PCs. Also notice how NPCs can attack when they should be swiming/drowning?


Defender dogs I can understand. The artificer made them all with spiked paws so they wouldn't succumb to their own attacks. Similarly, a prepared caster can wear spiked boots or buff with Freedom of Movement before casting Grease.

Another inconsistency note, I want to be able to use projectile Grease like the Defenders. Have you seen how far they can spray!?! :eek: My Grease spell always appears somewhere near my feet. :(

QFT, all of it

Kalanth
09-05-2007, 11:16 AM
If Freedom of Movement worked like it should on Grease then I would actually use this spell. Since it doesn't I would never dream of using this outside of a joke.

As stated, though, grease does the same to bad guys that it does to us. Like bowling pins on a strike, most times. :)

blakbyrd
09-05-2007, 11:27 AM
As mentioned, grease effects everyone, regardless of who cast it. Mobs casting it affect other mobs who walk into it.

It appears the only effects that hit everyone (or potentially hit everyone) are spells that incur a movement rate reduction. I am guess it is either intentional, as movement rate reduction isnt a form of damage (although it can cause it) or it is simply a coding situation with movement that wasnt accounted for during spell creation and thus interferes with everyone in the effect.

The one thing that really bothers me though about grease, is that you cannot jump over it. Even though it is only placed on the floor, the effect seems to work in an infinitely vertical sense. If you jump before getting into it, you are instantly sucked down into it if you happen to be in the air when going over it. If you are in grease you cannot jump at all. Why is this? Granted I am sure its a coding situation again, but we should be able to jump over it.

Emili
09-05-2007, 01:05 PM
As I recall it's a very rare rare occurance that grease ... either the mobs or friendly ... ever knocks my characters down. No being slowed down is a slight anoyance and actually sleet is more annoying then grease since less is visible. The mob though do seem to get less saves in the time-frame but it also means when the fall they have less chances to get back up also.

Let's step back and think though... spells like grease and sleet storm are actually great for an arcane or ranged combatant, step back out of the effected area and you're at an advantage. The only people it really effects are your melee (provided they do not have freedom of movement may be more painful) - thus there is a smart way to use such spells. I remember when Ice storm was frowned upon also.

Point in hand is friendly fire spells were a mainstay in PnP while in DDO they cut us a break to help make the arcane more useful in more situations...

Blagrak
09-05-2007, 01:17 PM
The one thing that really bothers me though about grease, is that you cannot jump over it. Even though it is only placed on the floor, the effect seems to work in an infinitely vertical sense. If you jump before getting into it, you are instantly sucked down into it if you happen to be in the air when going over it. If you are in grease you cannot jump at all. Why is this? Granted I am sure its a coding situation again, but we should be able to jump over it.

It seems that all instant AOE spells like haste, halt undead etc are cast as disks, while persistent AOE spells are cast as spheres even they may only have the disk portion of the graphic.

I'm going to have to try and cast grease at the ceiling or some other uspended point this evening to experiment. It'd be hilarious to see it on the roof of a cave and still have the people beneath slipping and sliding and falling.

Missing_Minds
09-05-2007, 03:44 PM
If Freedom of Movement worked like it should on Grease then I would actually use this spell. Since it doesn't I would never dream of using this outside of a joke.

As stated, though, grease does the same to bad guys that it does to us. Like bowling pins on a strike, most times. :)

When did this change happen??? I use grease with my party only AFTER I give everyone freedom of movement. You can knock down the skellies in giant hold with a bit of grease. And I've never seen a party member slip/slide/fall/blue dot save when they have FoM on them.

Aspenor
09-05-2007, 04:30 PM
you still slide on grease with freedom of movement.

I don't.

Dingo123
09-05-2007, 09:42 PM
That's a poor reason. Firewall should be a minor defensive spell, its a killer spell because we removed the friendly fire impact from the game.

Acid fog/solid fog are arguably also just as powerful as grease if not more so and once agian, no friendly fire.

It's just odd behavior....

Firewall doesn't incapacitate the mobs ability to fight back anywhere near the extent that grease has the potential to.

Missing_Minds
09-06-2007, 06:38 AM
Firewall doesn't incapacitate the mobs ability to fight back anywhere near the extent that grease has the potential to.

This is where I agree with the theory. Practice fails to hold up to it though. Incapped mobs don't fight back. Period. This is why WoF is better than grease.

To be fair, I've never tried the combo of the two. I know the game won't light the grease on fire, but...

Lorien_the_First_One
09-06-2007, 06:54 AM
Firewall doesn't incapacitate the mobs ability to fight back anywhere near the extent that grease has the potential to.

You didn't read what I said... I said firwall was more powerful than it should be because we removed friendly fire.

I then went on to mention other incapacitating spells.

Kalanth
09-06-2007, 07:15 AM
When did this change happen??? I use grease with my party only AFTER I give everyone freedom of movement. You can knock down the skellies in giant hold with a bit of grease. And I've never seen a party member slip/slide/fall/blue dot save when they have FoM on them.

Just like any bug, not all the time. I was in Tempest Spine the other day and had FoM on me. Someone placed grease as a joke and I slid to the bottom of the hill. I checked to make sure FoM was still on, and I have 10 minutes left. So I bug reported it.

Shade
09-06-2007, 08:19 AM
So does sleetstorm if I recall correctly.

These spells affect friendlies because if they didn't they would be unbelievably ridiculously powerful.

Think on it. A level 14 Sorc mass casting friendly grease left and right.

Now think about sleetstorm with its various effects as well.

And yeah.

Want to talk about a must have spell?

I know lots of people who use grease all the time, usualy in gianthold tor. First the bard makes the whole party imune to it with freedom of movement, then he sprays the entire area with it.

Its not particularly overpowered.. The giants often slip and fall and it doesnt effect the party but the giants there are easy anyways.