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LA_MIKE
09-04-2007, 11:51 AM
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Riekan
09-04-2007, 02:51 PM
Better to go 2 levels of rogue if you are looking for evasion. The 3rd level only gets you skill points, and if that's the reason for it then leave it in. However, if you are tanking, you have agro, so you won't be getting any sneak attack bonus. If the 3rd level of rogue is for the extra d6 of damage, you won't be getting it.

LA_MIKE
09-04-2007, 03:49 PM
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sigtrent
09-04-2007, 06:28 PM
You have just described the now famous/infamous Batman build.

Impaqt
09-04-2007, 06:37 PM
WHen you figure out how to do all that effectively, Let us know. Until then, your going to need to scale back your expectations a little bit.

LA_MIKE
09-04-2007, 07:00 PM
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Aeneas
09-04-2007, 09:50 PM
You have just described the now famous/infamous Batman build.

Yeah, if you want a rogue intimitank (which is different) see below.

Jebin
09-04-2007, 11:26 PM
Why not just make a tough rogue instead of a tank concoction that can maybe do traps?

Here's something I came up with after reading your requirements.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Intimigue
Level 14 Lawful Good Drow Male
(1 Fighter \ 3 Paladin \ 10 Rogue)
Hit Points: 217
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 16
Will: 8

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Strength 16 21 21
Dexterity 13 14 18
Constitution 13 14 14
Intelligence 13 14 14
Wisdom 9 10 10
Charisma 13 14 15

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 14
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 14
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 14
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 14
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 14

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Balance 5 14 14
Bluff 1 2 2
Concentration 1 2 2
Diplomacy 1 2 2
Disable Device 6 19 23
Haggle 1 2 2
Heal -1 0 0
Hide 3 6 6
Intimidate 5 19 19
Jump 3 15 15
Listen -1 0 2
Move Silently 3 6 6
Open Lock 5 21 25
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 2 2 4
Search 6 19 25
Spot 3 17 23
Swim 3 5 5
Tumble 5 14 14
Use Magic Device 5 19 22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance I

Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Follower of Vulkoor

Level 3 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Acid Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I

Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I

Level 5 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance II
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I

Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II

Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II

Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II

Level 10 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II

Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II

Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Way of the Mechanic I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I

Level 13 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I

Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II



Okay, so this build uses Drow and shortswords (Extra +3 to attack and +2 to damage with the Paladin Vulkoom thing and Drow weapon enhancements), or you can use a 32 point Elf build with longswords to get the same stats and results. (I think it's Sovreign Host or something for the +1 to longswords)

It requires a +1 Int tome at level 1 to help with skill points, but it's not necessary. It did end up with 10 Balance, Jump, and Tumble, not exactly game breaking to miss out on those. The rest of the tomes you can pick up once you're capped to fill in the odd abilities. (Odd abilities are something everyone should be using, when you consider that the max tome bonus is 5, and the max item bonus is 6)

Looking at the initial requirements:


1 - Complete (minus Cabal) trapsmith.

Disable Device of 23 before any buffs. +7 from tools, +13 from an item bumps you to +43. Add in a +2 from a +4 int item, a +1 Luck item, and drink a Heroism pot for another +2 and the +3 boost will put you up to 51. (Without Greater Heroism) Anyone who says that's not enough is blowing smoke.

Search of 25 before any buffs. +13 from an item, +2 from that same +4 Int item, a +1 Luck item, down a Heroism pot for +2 more, and +3 from boost will get you to 46. (Without Greater Heroism) Never had any problems finding stuff with this much search.

Spot of 23 before any buffs. +13 from an item, +1 from the +2 Wisdom on a Nightforge Helm (highly recommended as standard gear) and ad +2 from a Heroism Pot and you have 38. (Without Greater Heroism) I've never come across anything I couldn't spot with 36, let alone 38.



2 - Intimitank (draw all aggro, soak it up safely via defense)

Intimidate skill is only 19 without any items, but it can be raised easily enough. Then again, just like any Intimidate based tank, what happens when you can't hold agro after the intimidation wears off? Well, nothing says lovin' like 5d6 sneak attack. You may not hold agro after the intimidation wears off, but you'll have no trouble getting it back. Then again, you're strength based, so you might not lose agro anyway.

As far as soaking up damage safely, that depends on what you mean by that. If you intend to shield block, then you can ditch combat expertise and pick up Shield Mastery and hide behind a Tower Shield.

If you expect AC to win the day, you'll definately be able to raise it up there.

10 Base
+9 +5 Mithral Chain Shirt (Or Breastplate for 10)
+7 +5 Heavy Shield
+2 Dodge from Chaosgarde
+2 Aura AC
+5 Protection item
+6 Max Dex (+5 with Breastplate) 18 Dex +4 item, better item means you can drop some of the enhancement based dex.


41 AC before +3 or +5 Barkskin, +5 Combat Expertise, +6 Improved Uncanny Dodge, +1 Haste, and +2 Recitation.

That should be good enough for most anything, if you expect AC to save you from Elite level 16 quests, you'll be sorely dissappointed.

All this with Improved Evasion. Not much else needs to be said about that.


3 - Able to kill, at whatever speed (enemy swings 10 times ineffectually vs my 1 effective scratch)

21 Str with the +2 tome, add +5 gloves for 26. Obviously, it's not the 30+ fighters can get to, but then you consider you're getting +3 to attack and +2 to damage from enhancements. You're looking at effectively 30 strength. You don't do 'scratch' with 30 strength :)


4 - UMD

Use Magic Device skill is at 22 unbuffed, letting you swap out any RR'd item you can imagine without having to swap on UMD items. With a +5 Cha item, it'll jump the UMD to 25, drop on a Golden Cartouche for +3, and a +1 Luck item will jump to you 29. +3 more from a boost and +2 for a Heroism will get you to 34. You roll a one and you'll fail a Raise Dead scroll. Greater Heroism of course will put you at 36 which is zero failure. I think that's good enough.


5 - Decent Hit Points

217 Hitpoints, add a +4 Con item for +28, Greater False Life +30, add the Giant Hold Favor for +10 and you end up with a very healthy 285 hitpoints. Granted, it takes 4 Toughness Feats, but those are only giving 16 hitpoints a piece, if you have to have the Feats for something else, I'd like to know what.

In my opinion, anything over 250 hitpoints is overkill. Those dwarven barbarians running around with 400+ hitpoints aren't any safer from PK or the Finger. Disentegrate and Polar Ray are the only spells that can top 200 damage, but both only do so barely. So with 285, you've got about a 85 point buffer, you shouldn't have any trouble keeping yourself topped off anyway.

If you're getting hit consistently while standing still, you're not doing your cleric any favors. So, a well guarded 285 will make any cleric happy.


6 - Decent Saves

These numbers are all before Heroism/Greater Heroism, and Prayer/Recitation, so basicly unbuffed.

Fort Save:
Base = 8
+4 = 18 Con (13 Base, +1 Tome, +4 Item)
+4 = Resistance Item
+5 = Divine Grace 20 Cha (13 Base, +1 Tome, +1 Enhancements, +5 item)
+2 = Aura

Total Fort Save = 23

Reflex Save:
Base = 8
+6 = 22 Dexterity (13 Base, +4 Enhancements, +1 Tome, +4 Item)
+4 = Resistance Item
+5 = Divine Grace 20 Cha (13 Base, +1 Tome, +1 Enhancements, +5 Item)
+2 = Aura

Total Reflex Save = 25
vs Traps
+6 Improved Uncanny Dodge
+3 Trap Sense
+1 Improved Trap Sense Enhancement

Total Reflex Save vs Traps = 35

Will Save:
Base = 4
+1 = 12 Wisdom (Base 9, +1 Tome, +2 Nightforge Helm)
+5 = Resistance item (Nightforge Helm, like I said, should be standard gear)
+5 = Divine Grace 20 Cha (13 Base, +1 Tome, +1 Enhancements, +5 Item)
+2 = Aura

Total Will Save = 17

vs Enchantment Spells (Holds, Charms, Dances, Commands, Symbol of Stunning, Hypnotism, Touch of Idiocy, Crushing Despair, Feeblemind, Mindfog, Powerword: Blind)

+2 = Elf Enchantment Resistance
+2 = Improved Enchantment Resistance Enhancement

Total Will Save vs Enchantment Spells = 21


7 - Something along the lines of the 8f/3p/3r line

Guess this build doesn't meet all the requirements ;)

I currently play a Fighter 4/Rogue 10 build with 263 hitpoints, 41 unbuffed AC, and this same effective 30 str setup. He meets all the requirements you set forth except the saves and intimidate (He has bluff instead). I have a blast playing him, although it's sometimes hard to get people to believe that yes, my rogue has as good as, and sometimes better stats than some tanks.

Aeneas
09-05-2007, 12:56 PM
I play a 10 rogue/2 fighter/2 paladin rogue intimitank. The build was posted here, but was lost in the great thread cleanup of 2007. I have a build of him saved and i will post it here although it is an older version and a little rough and incorrect in parts.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 14 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(2 Fighter \ 2 Paladin \ 10 Rogue)
Hit Points: 185
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 16
Will: 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 10 11
Dexterity 17 23
Constitution 10 12
Intelligence 14 14
Wisdom 9 9
Charisma 14 15

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14)
Balance 7 16
Bluff 2 2
Concentration 0 1
Diplomacy 2 2
Disable Device 6 18
Haggle 6 16
Heal -1 -1
Hide 5 8
Intimidate 6 18
Jump 0 5.5
Listen -1 0
Move Silently 5 9
Open Lock 7 22
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 3.5
Search 6 20
Spot 3 15
Swim 0 2
Tumble 7 16
Use Magic Device 6 22

Notable Equipment
Armor: +5 Mithral Breastplate
Shield: +5 Mithral Heavy Steel Shield

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Finesse

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device

Level 4 (Rogue)

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 10 (Rogue)

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery II
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery III
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Giant Dodger I
Enhancement: Dwarven Giant Dodger II
Enhancement: Dwarven Shield Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Shield Mastery II
Enhancement: Dwarven Shield Mastery III
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I



He's wearing +5 acid guard mith breast plate, Helm of the Mroranon, and Kardin's Eye. With a planar gird a +2 cha tome and a +6 cha cloak, all saves are over 20 (and an additional 4 vs. spells) and AC is at 50 with CE turned on.

Gianthold AC breakdown (aka relevant ac breakdown):
55 vs. giants.
58 with bark pots.
64 with imp uncanny dodge active.
66 with ranger bark.
69 with full pally.
71 with recitation.
72 hasted.
74 blocking.

Still working on getting a chattering ring and daggertooth's belt to jump him up to 79 blocking and fully decked out vs. giants. (Yes a KDS would give one more, but i hate them and they're ugly so :p )

HP's are at 259. Shield block DR is something like 27 and he's wearing golden greaves for 3.

PS. the batman builds were mostly paladin and never took 10 rogue levels. Therefore they missed out on improved evasion and improved uncanny dodge. Intimitanks benefit greatly from both.

Aeneas
09-05-2007, 01:07 PM
That should be good enough for most anything, if you expect AC to save you from Elite level 16 quests, you'll be sorely dissappointed.




No he won't be. Especially if he builds correctly. I can tank a pair of sky nights in the tor with a couple buffs and never heal or drink a potion.

Just make sure you have a heavy fort item, crits are brutal.

LA_MIKE
09-05-2007, 01:13 PM
..

Aeneas
09-05-2007, 03:01 PM
Don't worry about balance and jump. Get a balance ring from invaders. Get a 30 minute jump buff from house p.

If you're just taking all those fighter levels for armor mastery you're wasting feats. Get a daggertooth's belt.

Your skills will be fine, don't forget you'll almost always have a greater heroism on you at higher levels and at least a +10 item for each one.

With only 2 backstab dice, low strength is your enemy. You only need to hit dex 24, that's +7 which will be your max dex in +5 mith bp (no tower shield, and with fighter armor mastery II). With starting 14 dex you can hit 24 with 1 from rogue enhancement, 2 from levels, a +1 tome, and a +6 item. Feed your strength monster. I would recommend at least a starting 14. Same for Con.

I would go this route with a 32 pt buy character.

STR 14 (+1 tome, 2 fighter enh, 6 item, rage spell = 25 for von switch)
Con 14 (+1 tome, +1 human versatility, 6 item = 20 con)
Dex 14 (+1 tome, +1 rogue enh, 2 from levels, 6 item = 24 dex for +7)
int 14 (for extra skills and search help)
Wis 10 (unimportant with only 3 paladins levels, better spent on cha)
Cha 14 (+1 tome, +1 paladin enh, +6 item = 22 cha, so +6 to saves, umd, and intimidate checks)

I know wis looks low, but remember, the 2 points you lose in wis for your will save you get right back in the form of a save bonus from charisma due to divine grace. Min maxing is great in the first 10 levels, but being weak in any area only hurts you later in the game.

Take your rogue level first for max skill points. Get your paladin levels early, and fighter levels later in the progression so you can take combat feats with higher bab requirements, like improved shield master or improved critical.

If you proceed with the 28pt build idea, drop int to 12 (eat a +1 tome as soon as possible and use your first level stat increase to add 1 more), and wis to 8.

QuantumFX
09-05-2007, 06:20 PM
I think the rumors of Batman's demise have been greatly exaggerated. Batman was never a newb friendly build. (ie. Gear dependency, metagaming dependency, never updated for Mod 3.3 or 32pt builds.) If you take these factors into account you can still make something that's fun.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 14 Lawful Good Human Male
(6 Fighter \ 2 Paladin \ 6 Rogue)
Hit Points: 195
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 14
Will: 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 16 24
Dexterity 14 18
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 15 16
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 12 14

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 12
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 14
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 14
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14)
Balance 6 19
Bluff 1 2
Concentration 1 2
Diplomacy 1 2
Disable Device 7 24
Haggle 1 2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 6 8
Intimidate 5 26
Jump 7 11
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 6 8
Open Lock 6 24.5
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 5
Search 7 27
Spot 3 18
Swim 3 7
Tumble 6 8
Use Magic Device 5 22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Skill Focus: Search
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 2 (Paladin)

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Bullheaded

Level 4 (Rogue)

Level 5 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise

Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Intimidate

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Fighter)

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Sentinel

Level 10 (Rogue)

Level 11 (Fighter)

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Bash
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Fire Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Way of the Mechanic I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate I
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I



AC
+10 - Base
+10 - KDS
+7 - Max Dex bonus (KDS + FAM1)
+7 - +5 Heavy Shield
+4 - SoF (Self cast)
+1 - Dodge
+5 - Combat Expertise
+3 - Barkskin Pot
+1 - Haste
+2 - Luck (Recitation)
+5 - HV Clickie (YES it stacks with Uncanny Dodge)
+4 - Uncanny Dodge Clickie (YES it stacks with HV 3.0)
+2 - Shield Block
+2 - Chaosguarde
+1 - Self Aura
--------------------------------
+64

+3 - Chattering Ring
+2 - Lvl 12 Ranger barkskin
+3 - Lvl 11 Paladin
--------------------------------
+72

Disable Device
+17 - Base
+3 - Int
+3 - +6 INT item
+15 - +15 DD Item
+7 - +5 Tools
+5 - HV
+2 - DD Rogue skill enhancement
+2 - Way of enhancement
+4 - Greater Heroism
+3 - Ventilated Braciers
+1 - Luck
--------------------------------
+62

Search
+17 - Base
+3 - INT
+3 - +6 INT item
+15 - Search Item
+5 - HV
+2 - Rogue Search Enhancement
+2 - Way of Enhancement
+3 - Skill Focus
+1 - Find Traps scroll
+4 - Greater Heroism
+1 - Luck
--------------------------------
+56

Line-dog
09-06-2007, 01:07 AM
My one character with 1750+ favor is a human 3Pal / 4Ftr / 7Rog. He's not the batman build. I actually made him before someone posted the Batman build that (at least as originally posted) only attempted to have average rogue skills. I wanted him to be more Rogue than that. He's been great. I can Intimidate better than most intimitanks. He's got over 270hp (I really need to find a greater false life item), good saves, good AC (with his +2 aura and CE), heavy fort from BAM, Improved Trip, and Stunning blow. with an additional 4D6+2 damage sneak attack when someone else gets the aggro. Can DD, OL etc... whip heal and buff wands, and throw out two Lay on Hands and an Intimidate for the rescue. Many times he's the one bringing five soul stones back to the rez shrine. UMD allows him to equip just about anything I want. If there is a pure rogue in the party I will usually just let them handle all the traps and switch his gear into more of a heavy melee mode. But when I do that sometimes I'm surprised to see many pure rogues struggle with being a rogue. He doesn't have the flat out kill count ability that some pure fighters, and barbarians have though. That's ok because he does so damn much for the party there's never a dull moment . . . and he's only a 28pt build. It would've been sweet to start him with 32pts.

Going forward: I want to eventually take him to 3Pal / 7Ftr / 10Rog, or 3Pal / 6Ftr / 11Rog. But level 7 has some great enhancements for fighters.

Divine Power clickies rock.

LA_MIKE
09-06-2007, 03:31 AM
..

Aeneas
09-06-2007, 09:54 AM
What you sir are looking for then, is the fighter forum. You apparently want a fighter with a rogue/pally splash, so post in the fighter forum for that, they'll be more helpful.

Jebin
09-06-2007, 05:54 PM
Now, I don't want you to think I'm making fun of you, because I'm not, I'm trying to figure out what you want, and keeping it light. Here's what I saw in your last post, please, correct me if I'm wrong.


The thing about these builds for me is, why are you putting more than 3 levels of Rogue into any build?

Translation: I don't want to be a rogue.


I don't want to make a Rogue.

I don't want to be a rogue.


I want to make a Fighter,

I want to be a fighter.


able to intimidate, open locks, disable device, and UMD items.

I want to be a rogue.


With so many Rogue levels vs Fighter levels, you're losing out on hit points, BAB, and feats.

I'd rather be a fighter than a rogue.


You're gaining skill points that aren't imperrative to the build, and Sneak attack that I'm not concerned with.

Being a rogue isn't important.


I know, Imp Evasion, Uncanny Dodge/Imp UD. But I'd rather have the inherent tougher Fighter levels over the squishier Rogue.

I'd rather be a fighter than a rogue.


That's one reason I'd put points into Wisdom over Strength. The bonus to WILL and skills outweighs the extra hit/damage because that's not going to be my primary job.

Being a fighter isn't important.


I'll be able to fight better than most other classes even after taking the build in this direction.

Being able to fight as well as a fighter is important.


DPS and topping kill lists knowingly doesn't factor in.

Being a fighter isn't important.


I'm building a Fighter,

I'm going to be a fighter.


stealing 3 Paladin levels for better saves while retaining BAB and hp,

I want to be better than a fighter.


stealing 2 Rogue levels for Evasion,

I want to be a rogue.


and a further Rogue level to catch up the 5 important skills to the build.

Being a rogue is important.


If I didn't have to take that 3rd level Rogue, I wouldn't.

I don't want to be a rogue.


That's one objective of my discussions: trying to figure if I can make a build achieve all this without dipping more Rogue

I'd rather not be a rogue.


because I'd rather retain another Fighter level.

I want to be a fighter.


I just don't want so many Rogue levels.

I don't want to be a rogue.


You see why we're having trouble figuring out what you want? :)

Now I'm going to pick apart your build a little bit, because you wanted comments. I'm going to compare your build to your own requirements for that build. First of all, before I go any further, if you went ahead and built this character, I think you'd end up hating it.

First of all, your combat ability, which according to this comment:


I'll be able to fight better than most other classes even after taking the build in this direction.

You expect to out fight at the very least an unbuffed combat bard.

Okay, BAB of 13 for the 8F/3P/3R, vs a Bard 14's BAB of 10. Assuming the bard intended to fight from the very start, he's probably taken 15 Str at creation, while your build has 10 Str and 13 Dex. You took one combat feat with Weapon Finess, since the bard doesn't need weapon finess, he'll use Weapon Focus: Slashing. I'll just ignore items bonuses because they can be the same for both builds. Both builds are human and throw one Human Versatility enhancement into strength, while your build places the Rogue Dex 1 and Fighter Str 1 on as well.

8F/3P/3R = BAB 13 + 2 Dex = +15 to hit
Bard = BAB 10 + 3 Str + 1 WF = +14 to hit

8F/3P/3R = Rapier = 1d6 +1 Str
Bard = Longsword = 1d8 +3 Str

So...looking at the handy melee damage analysis we see that...

8F/3P/3R vs Unbuffed Combat Bard (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/graph.php?minac=10&maxac=50&8F/3P/3R=+15/+15/+20/+25:+4.5/+4.5/+4.5/+4.5:+18x2/+18x2/+18x2/+18x2:+9/+9/+9/+9:4/90&Bard=+14/+14/+19/+24:+7.5/+7.5/+7.5/+7.5:+19x2/+19x2/+19x2/+19x2:+15/+15/+15/+15:4/90)

You're going to be very dissappointed with your combat ability.

Now, onto your rogue skills.


I have enough skill points to keep OL/DD/Search/Intim/UMD at +22 each

First of all, Open Lock was only 20, but that's not important.

Nimble Fingers
Skill Focus: Search
Rogue Search 1
Rogue Disable Device 1
Rogue Open Lock 1
Fighter Intimidate III ?!!?

I think you'd be better off with a 4th level of rogue instead of trying to patch up your skills with feats. Because that is what you're trying to do. These skill levels you're getting to are the base for most rogues. Most rogues that haven't spent any feats on them and only a minimum of enhancements.

I won't bother pointing out the pro's and con's of 8th fighter vs 4th rogue, they should be obvious when looking at the total ranks spent, and the fact that the second level of skill enhancements is available at level 4. Unfortunately, if you only took 7 levels of Fighter, you wouldn't be able to pick up Fighter Intimidate III.


- 208 hit points - Will this be enough?

Sure it'll be enough, but:


I'd rather have the inherent tougher Fighter levels over the squishier Rogue.

I thought your idea was to not be as squishy as a rogue? QuantumFX's build had 195, Aeneas' had 185, and mine had 217.

Well, if you meant that to mean higher saves, well the only considerably higher save is will and it comes from feat selection, +3 will from Luck of Heros and Iron Will, right? Well, that gave you a base of 13 Will while QuantumFX's human had 7. Aeneas' dwarf had 5--9 if you factor in the innate dwarf bonus plus the 2 increase spent through enhancements. My drow build had a base of 8 and if you factored in the enchantment resistance (and enhancements) it jumps it to 12.

If you can find a Will Save that is game breaking and is not enchantment based I'll give you a high five. PK and other Fear spells don't count since you're immune to fear. Bestow Curse and Slow are both cured by potions, you carry potions right? Glitterdust you should be wearing Blindness Ward for, while Hypnotic Pattern could be a problem...once you finish fighting Kobolds I doubt you'll have any issues.

All three of these builds have comparable Fort and Reflex saves to the 8F/3P/3R build. All three of these builds have even if not better skill selections than the 8F/3P/3R build. All three of these builds can blow the 8F/3P/3R build out of the water in melee combat.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that unlike other games where a certain role has to be filled by a certain class, (EverQuest's Warriors come to mind) Dungeons and Dragons combat system is much more flexible with regards to class boundries. If a well built bard has a better chance to hit, AC, and hitpoints than a poorly built fighter, the bard will perform as a tank better. No secret bonuses for the fighter class (*cough* EverQuest *cough*) allow them to be better tanks, everything is out in the open. It's a simple game of numbers.

If you don't have the numbers on your side, you're not going to do well.

Cheers.

LA_MIKE
09-07-2007, 06:42 AM
..

Roguewiz
09-07-2007, 08:56 AM
You guys are being very helpful, and I thank you. :)

The reason I posted in the rogue forum was to get the rogue insight from those who know best. Building a fighter with great saves, a good AC, and an Intimidator is one thing, but the rogue aspect is the area I want to be sure I fully understand before incorperating it.

I'm learning a lot.

The problem you are going to run into, with your stat setup and the leveling progression you want, you won't have everything you want, if any of them at all.

Take this into consideration:
* 10 Strength is too low to be a non-finesse type fighter
* 14 Dexterity is too low to be considered a finesse type fighter
* 20 Int is great to be a trapsmith Rogue, but you don't have enough levels of Rogue for it.
* 10 Charisma for Divine Grace, is too low.

With everything you want, you should consider taking a look at my Rogue'adin build (in my sig). Make the necessary modifications to be a Drow, and you won't be unhappy.

LA_MIKE
09-07-2007, 09:10 AM
..

Roguewiz
09-07-2007, 09:17 AM
Ya I'm tweaking things a bit.

My STR above works out to 12.

With a 14 DEX, I might not be a great finesse fighter, but it's better than a 12 STR Fighter.

With things the way they are, I do have enough INT to slot the Rogue skills needed.

My CHA above works out to 16, for +3 to all saves.

I'll check out your build now. Thanks for the input. :)

I was speaking in regards to the nice Rogue enhancements ;)

LA_MIKE
09-08-2007, 07:34 AM
..

Jebin
09-08-2007, 04:32 PM
Ok, I finalized my Human 28 point build.

My opinion remains unchanged, I don't think you'll enjoy this build if you go ahead with it.

The problem I see, is that it tries to do so many things (Granted, that was what you were trying to do) that it ends up doing a few adequately, while the rest end up mediocre at best. Nothing is done exceptionally, which means everything this build attempts to do can be done better by someone else. That someone else in most cases will be another rogue.


1 - Complete (minus Cabal) trapsmith.

You're build is adequate as a trapsmith. You don't have enough rogue levels to pick up a good selection of skill boosting enhancements, but you managed to max your skill ranks in Search and Disable. Your ability here is the same as a rogue who decided that he'd better put the trapsmith part of being a rogue in, just because people sort of expect it.


2 - Intimitank (draw all aggro, soak it up safely via defense)

Your intimidate skill is high enough, and you picked up Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery. I assume this means you'll be turtling, and you should be alright in this manner. Unfortunately, turtling doesn't win the day in most cases, and Intimidate doesn't last forever.


3 - Able to kill, at whatever speed (enemy swings 10 times ineffectually vs my 1 effective scratch)

See, this is where this build's biggest deficiency is. The ability to kill. Hell, the ability to hit is even more important than that. A wizard with Tenser's Transformation will out melee this build.

Strength is not a dump stat for a fighter. You've said you wanted to build a fighter with rogue skills, but I'm not seeing it. I'm not sure what to call this build, but I know I don't want to claim it's a rogue.

Weapon Finesse? It gives you a net +1 to attack while limiting you to an inferior selection of weapons. Why not pick a Weapon Focus and raise your strength? You'll only need 16 dexterity to fill Full Plate with Fighter: Armory Mastery II. What about Mithral Full Plate you ask? I doubt you'll ever find a suit-they're extremely rare-let alone keep this build around long enough to need it.

Also, I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but you can't use Evasion in heavy or medium armor, so having a Dex as low as you've decided will not allow you to fill out light armor's Max Dex bonus, especially with Armor Mastery II.

Dodge is only 1 AC, and not worth trashing your melee capabilities by requiring 13 Dex on top of spending a feat on it.


4 - UMD

With only 15 ranks of Use Magic Device, I'm wondering what's going on. Skill Focus: UMD helps, but why isn't your UMD maxed?


5 - Decent Hit Points

Your hit points are nothing spectacular, about the same as a normal fighter with a higher con who didn't bother taking Toughness at all. So basically, not enough for a straight fighter, but enough for a multiclassed rogue. Except you're trying to be a fighter with rogue skills. /shrug


6 - Decent Saves

Again, nothing spectacular here either. About the same as a full Paladin who took the full aura bonus, but nothing else in regards to save bonuses. You spent three feats to get your saves where they are...Is it worth it? I don't think so.

If saves are so important (Will being the one you've tried to patch the most), why not take Paladin up to level 7? Four fewer fighter levels means three feats gone (Iron Will, Bullheaded, and Dodge come to mind) and no Armor Mastery 2, but you can wear a belt for that. Then at level 7 Paladin you have the AC and Resist Aura 2, plus the extra Charisma 2 at Paladin 6.

Or better, why not use a Dwarf or Elf with innate bonuses to Will Saves and slide in another level of rogue to make up for lost skill points? You don't lose another BAB until rogue level 5. 4th level of rogue gets you +2 skill enhancements, and Uncanny Dodge.

Fighter 8 vs Rogue 4 = +4 HP, -6 Skill Points, +1 Fort, -1 Reflex, +1 Fighter Feat, -1 Uncanny Dodge (Uncanny Dodge = +4 AC +4 Reflex clickie)

Or Drow will get you to 18 Int for the same ability points as 16 for a human, leaving your skill point level alone.


7 - Something along the lines of the 8f/3p/3r line

Drow would make for a much better choice for your 8F/3P/3R build. As a human with 16 Int, the only thing you have over a Drow is the bonus feat at first level, the choice to spread your enhancement ability choices, and Human Versatility.

The Drow on the other hand will have identical skill points because his Int will be 18. He comes innate with +2 Will save vs nearly every will save in game, and his Charisma will be 2 points higher giving another +1 to every save making up for both Iron Will AND Luck of Heros, not to mention part of Bull Headed. Your dexterity starts at 10, which allows you to even your con back out to 12 while still maintaining 13 dex.

So the only real benefit is spreading your ability enhancement choices (Not that great in my opinion) and Human Versatility the skill boost. Now, I've never been a fan of skill boosts, and if you're planning on using it to UMD great, but if you're intending it to boost your rogue skills, you'll be out in no time.

So for UMD, Human Versatility is +5 for 20 seconds, 5 times a day. While if you maxed out UMD ranks like in my example below, you'll gain +2, extra Charisma from Drow makes another +1, and then you could just pick up Rogue Action Boost 1 for the last +2. You end up 3 points higher constantly, and still have the same level while boosted. You save 9 action points to place in other interesting enhancements, like Elf Enchantment Resistance for more Will saves.

I can't make the decision for you, so you'll have to decide for yourself.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for some advice that's not basically telling you to scrap the build. I went through your leveling, and skill selection, and found you don't have your skills as high as you could get them if you adjusted your level order slightly.

Disable Device = 17 Ranks = 2 Nimble Fingers + 3 Int + 1 Enhancement = 23 = Maxed

Open Lock = 17 Ranks = 2 Nimble Fingers + 2 Dex + 1 Enhancement = 22 = Maxed

Search = 17 Ranks = +3 Int + 1 Enhancement = 21 = Maxed

Intimidate = 14 Ranks = +2 Bull Headed, +3 Cha, +2 Enhancement = 21 = Not Maxed

Use Magic Device = 15 Ranks = 3 SF: UMD, +3 Cha = 21 = Not Maxed

You're missing five skill points from your chosen skills. Here's an adjusted leveling example with skill selections that squeezes an extra three skill points out for those primary skills and doesn't affect your Feat selection at all. It basically just moves your second rogue level back a few levels.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 14 Lawful Good Human Male
(8 Fighter \ 3 Paladin \ 3 Rogue)
Hit Points: 162
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 13\13\18\23
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 10
Will: 7

Starting Ending
Base Skills Base Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14)
Balance 5 5
Bluff 2 2
Concentration 1 1
Diplomacy 2 2
Disable Device 7 20
Haggle 6 6
Heal 0 0
Hide 5 5
Intimidate 6 19
Jump 3 4
Listen 0 0
Move Silently 5 5
Open Lock 5 16
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 3
Search 7 20
Spot 4 4
Swim -1 0
Tumble 5 5
Use Magic Device 6 19

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)

Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 4 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 7 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 8 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+6)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 12 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+5)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)



Disable Device = 17
Open Lock = 15
Search = 17
Intimidate = 17
UMD = 17

It's only missing 2 from your primary skills, and on the last level you can adjust it to where you want those skills missing - I left them out of Open Lock as I feel it's the least important.

Roguewiz
09-10-2007, 09:13 AM
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 16
Wis 12
Cha 16

* Str is still too low
* Dex is still too low
* Con is about right, for a Rogue, however you want to be an Intimitank...thus, it is too low.
* Int is too high. You are paying a premium to get to that level.
* Wis is fine
* Cha is ok, however, it is a tad high as well. You are paying a premium to get to that level also.


Disable Device 23
Intimidate 21
Open Lock 22
Use Magic Device 21

* Disable Device = With a +15 item, you will have 38. With +7 tools, that makes it a 45. Not bad, but, don't expect to disable anything other than Normal content (for level 13+ quests)

* Intimidate = Intimidate is good. You should be able to rip aggro on the 1st try on MOST encounters. However, as the game progresses, I honestly see Intimitanks being not required. You can't intimidate: Undead, Constructs, Vermin, Animals, and I think Elementals (some).

* Open Lock = Decent, but nothing to brag about. Your dex is awefully low. Like Disable Device, there will be some things that you just can't open. (The door in PoP comes to mind)

* Use Magic Device = 21 is good enough to equip most items, but if your goal is to use Raise Dead scrolls and such, it is too low. You'd need the 7 Fingered Gloves and Greater Heroism to even have a remote chance of hitting the DC. Also, you are only hitting 21 because you took UMD Focus. If you can't hit 20 without it, then you are wasting a feat IMO.


Feat: (Selected) Luck of Heroes (Useless)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Nimble Fingers (Useless)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Finesse
Feat: (Selected) Iron Will (Useless)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Selected) Bullheaded (Useless)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge (Useless)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery

Weapon Finesse = With your dex being so low, even with a +6 Item, your to-hit is going to suck. Also, since you took Combat Expertise, your to-hit will be even lower (while running CE)

Level Stat Raises
You raised Str, Wis, and Cha as your level based stat raises. I question them all. If it was for the purpose of giving you an even number, why not just equip a +5 item? They are easy to come by and that will allow you to put those points into something else that would give more benefit, like Dex, since you are something resembling a Finesse fighter.

Overall, I don't see how viable you are going to be. You want to do everything, but sacrafice too much to attempt to do everything (and do it poorly I might add)

Aeneas
09-10-2007, 01:48 PM
You can intimidate most undead.

Only mindless undead cannot be intimidated, like skeletons. Also, you can intimidate some animals, worgs for instance, and elementals.

The only real time you'll run into trouble with intimidate checks is against large creatures because you will take a size penalty to the check.

Roguewiz
09-10-2007, 01:53 PM
You can intimidate most undead.

Only mindless undead cannot be intimidated, like skeletons. Also, you can intimidate some animals, worgs for instance.

True, forgot about the "intellgient" undead.

As far as Worgs go, perhaps I should have been a little more informative. Intimidate doesn't work on things with no-intelligence or lower than animal intelligence (which is 1-3). Worgs, have higher than normal Intellgience, at around 5 or 6. Also, Worgs are not animals, they are Magical Beasts.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/worg.htm (for Worgs)

Aeneas
09-10-2007, 02:07 PM
They trip like wolves, so they're animals to me :D Wonder what category those new carrion rats are going to fall into in mod 5. Anybody know?

Roguewiz
09-10-2007, 02:28 PM
They trip like wolves, so they're animals to me :D Wonder what category those new carrion rats are going to fall into in mod 5. Anybody know?

Undead Mickey Mouse. They have a +5 to tickle your funny bone.

Averroes
09-11-2007, 11:24 AM
* Con is about right, for a Rogue, however you want to be an Intimitank...thus, it is too low.
[...]

* Disable Device = With a +15 item, you will have 38. With +7 tools, that makes it a 45. Not bad, but, don't expect to disable anything other than Normal content (for level 13+ quests)

* Intimidate = Intimidate is good. You should be able to rip aggro on the 1st try on MOST encounters. However, as the game progresses, I honestly see Intimitanks being not required. You can't intimidate: Undead, Constructs, Vermin, Animals, and I think Elementals (some).

* Open Lock = Decent, but nothing to brag about. Your dex is awefully low. Like Disable Device, there will be some things that you just can't open. (The door in PoP comes to mind)

* Use Magic Device = 21 is good enough to equip most items, but if your goal is to use Raise Dead scrolls and such, it is too low. You'd need the 7 Fingered Gloves and Greater Heroism to even have a remote chance of hitting the DC. Also, you are only hitting 21 because you took UMD Focus. If you can't hit 20 without it, then you are wasting a feat IMO.


I'm not at all sure where you're getting your information...

I run one character with rogue skills -- 14 int, max ranks, and a +11 item is enough to disable every trap in the game on elite except The Trap. Open lock doesn't even require max ranks. I don't have to equip an item to get the door in PoP on elite.

Your list of things that can't be intimidated is incorrect, as has been pointed out above. It works on anything intelligent, including 95% of the undead in the game. A modified score of roughly 40 is good for all existing content aside from the Stormreaver, whose check is about 48.

Further, I'd say that 13 base con is too much for a build trying to do this many things. My intimitank was built with 6 con, and has eaten a +2 tome and wears a +4 item for 12. He has 220 hitpoints, which, once again, is plenty for all existing content (when coupled with a mid- to high-50s AC and no save below 20).


To return to the original point of the thread, I'd say that it is no longer possible to adequately perform all 3 roles (trapsmith, intimitank, offensive melee) with this sort of build. Pick 2, and you can do them as well as a pure specialist.

tc12
09-11-2007, 12:03 PM
Str 12
Dex 14

* Str is still too low
* Dex is still too low


I had trouble reading past here in the build too. Really Mike, you need to listen to what folks are telling you here. You simply will have no melee at all if you don't pick either your STR or DEX and raise it to a respectable level. DEX if you take finesse, STR otherwise. One of them should be planned to hit at 26 minimally with gear, level points, enhancements, tomes and whatnot. Otherwise you simply will not be able to hit anything. Even if somehow you could get and hold agro in a full defensive mode, no one wants to party with any type of "tank" who cannot deal any damage at all.

Roguewiz
09-11-2007, 12:41 PM
I'm not at all sure where you're getting your information...

I run one character with rogue skills -- 14 int, max ranks, and a +11 item is enough to disable every trap in the game on elite except The Trap. Open lock doesn't even require max ranks. I don't have to equip an item to get the door in PoP on elite.
1. My point is, without the upper level Rogue enhancements, there are some things that wont be disabled/found. Going with so few Rogue levels will limit him in the long run. The only other hybrid build which can realistically, hit most traps, is a Wizard/Rogue with high INT.
2. Open lock can be offset by having a high dex, which his build does not have.

Your list of things that can't be intimidated is incorrect, as has been pointed out above. It works on anything intelligent, including 95% of the undead in the game. A modified score of roughly 40 is good for all existing content aside from the Stormreaver, whose check is about 48.
If you check my post from 9/10, you'd see I went into better explanation.

Further, I'd say that 13 base con is too much for a build trying to do this many things. My intimitank was built with 6 con, and has eaten a +2 tome and wears a +4 item for 12. He has 220 hitpoints, which, once again, is plenty for all existing content (when coupled with a mid- to high-50s AC and no save below 20).
I like how you included 50+ AC and 20+ saves, which I won't argue. If you can maintain that level of AC/Saves, it makes surviving easier. But guess what, it makes no difference in the long run. While I personally do not maintain that high of an AC, I do maintain 240ish hp and 26+ to all saves. HP > AC. Period, end of story. Doesn't matter if you can avoide 3 out of 5 swings, its the two swings that connect for 40+ which hurt. As an intimitank, you are going to get aggro, you are going to be hit. Higher HP will increase survivability.

To return to the original point of the thread, I'd say that it is no longer possible to adequately perform all 3 roles (trapsmith, intimitank, offensive melee) with this sort of build. Pick 2, and you can do them as well as a pure specialist.


See above for my comments, in red as usual.

Aeneas
09-25-2007, 08:34 AM
P.S. Good luck doing anything useful in most new content if your rogue can't do something outside of backstab damage in mod 5. Intimitank with a good sorc will be the name of the game.

Treerat
10-10-2007, 09:08 PM
See above for my comments, in red as usual.

Apparently people have forgotten just why pure rogues cried constantly about how Batman tanks "were making rogues useless."

First some basic math to show just how high someone that had unlocked access to drow could push their rogue skills without touching the rogue enhancements or high-end raid items. Keep in mind that while the Batman didn't require specific raid loot, the build was highly gear dependent - requiring items such as race-restricted skill items, +5 mithril full plate, planar girds, and lots of consumables to become fully effective.

Search: 17 Ranks + 5 (20 int) + 13 (item) + 2 (free drow/elf feat) + 3 (skill focus) + 4 (Greater Heroism) + 2 (2 ranks elven search) +1 (find traps scroll) + 1 (rabbit gloves, prayer, etc) = 48 (49 if they find a +2 luck item)
That may not be enough for the chest trap in cabal, but it's certainly enough for any of the traps outside the pre-raid in Litany 3 on elite. I know this because my own rogue runs slightly less when I don't equip everything and still can find the trap boxes.

Disable Device: 17 Ranks +5 (14+6 int) + 13 (item) + 3 (skill focus) + 4 (Greater Heroism) +1 (luck item) +7 (+5 picks) = 50 (51 with +2 luck source)
Again enough to do the Litany traps on elite and not blow them or have very little chance of blowing them.

Use Magic Device: 17 ranks + 6 (22 charisma) +3 (skill focus) +3 (cartouch) +4 (Greater Heroism) +1 (luck item) = 34 (35 with +2 luck)
Thats enough to successfully use a Raise Dead scroll (the normal benchmark) 95% of the time. Plus most arcane wands, and Heal scrolls reliably 70% of the time.

As for open locks, show me a place where the rogue MUST open the lock the first try. A place where the rogue has NO chance to go back and retry the lock until it opens and where failure to open such a lock spells failure in the quest. Right - there are none. So a Batman-style build doesn't need to max their Open Locks; as long as they have practical chance (say on a 15 or better), they can keep trying to open that lock until they either run out of picks (unlikely when people can carry 200+) or succeed.

Those values are comparable to the typical rogue who doesn't invest feats into skills (using them for combat-orientated feats instead) and doesn't possess abnormally high starting intelligence. Key reaching those numbers is being able to use feats from the fighter levels for combat, and the paladin levels to remove the need for save-boosting feats.

As for your "hit points > AC" comment: try telling that to the tanks that can wade into a room of monsters, hit intimidate to keep everything off a fire-walling caster, and walk away without being spam-healed. Here is a breakdown of why AC still matters even at the end-game.

Take a melee with 55 AC (the basic benchmark for AC tanks in Giant Hold) and a monster with a +44 to-hit bonus.

55 AC - (+44) = 11.

The monster needs to roll an 11 or better out of 20 to hit the tank. That is roughly a 50% miss rate assuming a 5% (1 out of 20) chance of any one number popping up. Now lets consider casting Displacement on this tank (as the 400+ hp barbs always claim makes them "equal" to AC tanks).

1 * .50 (AC-based miss rate) * .50 (miss rate from displacement) = .25

Or a 25% chance that the monster can even connect with the AC melee with Displacement. Now assuming a monster takes 8 swings at this AC-based melee and a no-AC barbarian, and that each hit is for 50 hitpoints.

Barb: 8 * 0.5 (miss rate) * 50 = 200 points of damage taken
AC Melee: 8 * 0.25 * 50 = 100 points of damage taken

What that translates into is that the AC-based melee can go twice as long as the "hit points only matter" melee before taking the same amount of damage. Plus the higher they get their AC, the longer they can go before needing that heal versus the guy who gets hit 50% of the time at best. Since DDO heals are fixed in value (rather that working off a percentage of the targets maximum health), there is also no practical value in having more hit points after the maximum reliable heal plus a 1-3 hit buffer. Either the extra never gets used (in the case where the healer has time to space out heals), or its depleted and can't be restored without extra drain on limited healing resources.

As to what the OP was looking for - check the Paladin forum since that was where Grenfel was quite active and posted serveral links to (and versions of) his Batman intimidate-tank. That is the sort of build you are looking for; a marriage of high survivability (based on AC), good aggro-management (via intimidate), and the critical rogue skills (DD, OL, Search, UMD) with respectable killing capabilities (maybe not fast, but able to outlast anything it couldn't beat down quickly).

Cianos_Fanas
10-12-2007, 11:06 AM
I've been thinking about this Batman idea lately also so here is my take on the subject. I wanted good rogue skills and strong intimidate. I'm not looking to be the kill leader I just want to disable, open locks and try to hold agro while the dps guys do their thing. Let me know what you think. Keep in mind that this is a 32pt build and does not include items/tomes etc. Ending stats (w/o tomes) will look something like 16,24,16(18),24,14(16),24


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.60
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Jack of the Wood
Level 14 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Fighter \ 2 Paladin \ 10 Rogue)
Hit Points: 155
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 17
Will: 9

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Strength 10 10 11
Dexterity 16 16 19
Constitution 12 12 12
Intelligence 16 18 18
Wisdom 10 10 10
Charisma 16 17 18

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14) (Level 14)
Balance 7 21 21
Bluff 3 4 4
Concentration 1 1 1
Diplomacy 3 4 4
Disable Device 7 21 26
Haggle 3 4 4
Heal 1 8 8
Hide 7 8 8
Intimidate 7 21 25
Jump 4 15 15
Listen 0 0 2
Move Silently 7 8 8
Open Lock 7 21 25
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 3 4 4
Search 7 21 26
Spot 4 17 21
Swim 0 0 0
Tumble 5 7 7
Use Magic Device 7 21 21

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Nimble Fingers

Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Finesse

Level 3 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Intimidate

Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery

Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)

Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 10 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery

Level 13 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost IV
Enhancement: Improved Drow Spell Resistence I
Enhancement: Improved Drow Spell Resistence II
Enhancement: Improved Drow Spell Resistence III
Enhancement: Improved Drow Spell Resistence IV
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance I
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance II
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance III
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Perception II
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device III
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I