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Renegade66
09-01-2007, 09:47 AM
NightbirdX and I met up this morning for a Madstone Crater Elite run as discussed on page 2 of this thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=119092&page=2

The bet was that he had to get at least half as many kills with his fighter as I had on my Barbarian. We had a caster and cleric with us (thanks Elandra and Emmaline!). The casters stuck to haste, web and solid fog only, although they gave us both GH. We had a good time and it was definitely a nice change of pace.

We did two runs.

The first was with Jellybean, my two weapon Barbarian and self proclaimed best fighter type in the game (even in the face of Shade's fruitless arguements).

Results:
NightbirdX = 26 (13.3% kills)
Jellybean = 169 (86.7% kills)
http://www.geocities.com/renegade66.geo/ScreenShot00142

The next run was with Blutus, my straightforward, SoS wielding Barbarian (i.e. nothing special).

Results:
NightbirdX = 56 (31.6% kills)
Jellybean = 121 (68.4% kills)
http://www.geocities.com/renegade66.geo/ScreenShot00146

I want to thank NightbirdX again for taking me up on the challenge and meeting me this morning. Certainly a great player and great guy. I'd group with him anytime and look forward to doing so in the near future.

If anyone wants to know more about the Jellybean build and equipment, just let me know here. I'm happy to share it. It's nice to know that a Barbarian can be more than a Maldini build.

Ren

NightbirdX
09-01-2007, 09:56 AM
My take on this competion :D
Well, Renegade had our little meet up this morning, and the tally is in. We did 2 fights and I will discuss them both. We chose to do Madstone Elite. The buffs we had were Greater Hero, Haste, Barkskin, and he was raged of course. I brought a Clr friend, and he brought a caster friend. The Clr and Caster were to only kill in self defense, if it was a mob tehy couldn't stop and we weren't able to get back to them to help. So all in all the only source of kills were on us two. In order for me to win the gentlemen's bet, I had to stop him from outkilling me 2 to 1.

Fight 1: Me vs. Jellybean

I was a bit dismayed when we gathered at Madstone to see that Jellybean was wielding 2 Rapiers. I knew the outcome then and there. 2 normal looking rapiers in anyones hands.... WELL he was dual wielding Wounding/Puncturing Rapiers. I knew there was no way that I could compete with that. I came out swingin though.

Jellybean (14 Barb): 169
Krakilor (14 Ftr): 26

I pretty much threw out the DPS within the first 15 mins of the match. Anything he touched died. It was really insane, though very fun to watch. He could easily 2 shot any fleshy mob in there from what I could see. I couldn't keep up with that so I went to the Vorpal and sprayed and prayed for a 20. Most of the kills that I got were probably from my disruptor, though I did get a few vorpals too.

Fight 2: Me Vs. Blutus

After our first go, he decided to swap out to his SoS Barb and see how it fared. So he brought Blutus and we went for all DPS, no punc/wound or any other instakills besides disruptors. This went a bit better though was still hard to keep up with. At first I was able to kill undead very well with my disruptor. We started out having a score of 6-5 with him in the lead. then towards the middle we both were getting saved quite a bit, and went to DPS weapons on undead giants, which for me was much slower going than for him in 2H mode, and he started to pull away. I eventually swapped back to Disruptor trying to eek a little more dignity out of the kill count.

Blutus (14 Barb): 121 Kills
Krakilor (14 Ftr): 56 Kills

I nearly made the 2/1 margin, but I was 9.5 kills short. It was a very good competition though. I had a lot of fun. Good to meet and play with more people that know what they are doing. Renegade's builds are really great. Jellybean is the best killing build that I have ever run with.

I believe that if I had been a Two Handed fighter build I could have kept possibly quite a bit closer to Blutus. No one will be able to keep up with Jellybean.

Krakilor isn't truly built for mass destruction, hate, and discontent. He is a versatility Dwarven Tactics build. High AC, 100% Fort, 370 HP's. I always do well in groups most of the time leading the kill count, but I am very well geared for what I do. Vs another well geared, and very well skilled Barbarian, I have no chance. Vs mediocre Barbarians with decent gear, I will win. But this was 2 great players playing great builds, with great gear, and his Barbarians Decraptitated me.

So here it is formally. I have been converted there is no DD/DPSer as good as a well geared, well equipped, very skilled Barbarian.

Renegade was a good sport about it though, no rubbing it in or making me feel like a horses patuty. It was a very professional match up vs. 2 mature men, who wanted to see results and not measure E-peens.

Very fun to do, I would recommend it to anyone who wants a good challenge. I thought it was really cool to go into Madstone and 4 man it with ease. First run went insanely fast. Though that wasn't due to my insanity. Jellybean didn't need any other melees there. He could have had a pocket caster and a pocket clr and done it easily with just those 3 and him doing all the killing. 2nd run went well, still pretty fast especially for Madstone Elite.

All in all good bout of fun. I look forward to doing it again when I get my 2h Fighter going.

If anyone has any questions about my build or gear feel free to ask.

Strakeln
09-01-2007, 10:45 AM
Here's what I would really like to see: same two runs, with swapped accounts. Determine how much of it was player skill and how much of it was build/equipment. The kill count difference is simply too significant, which tends to make me feel that Renegade was also a notably more skilled player (no offense Nightbird). This feeling is underscored by the fact that Krakilor broke out a vorpal in a kill count contest, and was going sword-and-board.

Again, not intending to offend, Nightbird... heck, I was even on the barbarian side of this discussion. And I know my suggestion is against the EULA and all that. Perhaps a substitute competitor?

Renegade66
09-01-2007, 11:07 AM
I would say the biggest thing our trial showed is the raw killing power of the jellybean build over a more conventional TWF with SoS and Bloodstone. There's no question a THF Fighter would have fared much better against Blutus. Although, versus Jellybean, little matters.

loki523
09-01-2007, 11:32 AM
No one will be able to keep up with Jellybean.

OMG it's so on. :p

We'll do 2. One in your playground and one in mine. :D

Shade
09-01-2007, 12:16 PM
I would say the biggest thing our trial showed is the raw killing power of the jellybean build over a more conventional TWF with SoS and Bloodstone. There's no question a THF Fighter would have fared much better against Blutus. Although, versus Jellybean, little matters.

All it shows is your 2hand barb is gimped and your dual wield one is decent.

That and the fact your a bit weird doing a DPS challenge with a caster instead of a bard. SoS is gimped compared to a proper greater bane greataxe with axe dmg.

Sucks we aren't on the same server because I routinely outkill ppl who use wounding of puncturing weapons there by a large margin.

Really due to there HP and Con sorcerers can get the highest killcounts there. Granted that would require a massive supply of major mnemonic potions to do so, but ive seen it done. Actualy i've seen a cleric do it, outkilled 3 fighters by an insane margine just using slay living and destruction.

NightbirdX
09-01-2007, 12:22 PM
Here's what I would really like to see: same two runs, with swapped accounts. Determine how much of it was player skill and how much of it was build/equipment. The kill count difference is simply too significant, which tends to make me feel that Renegade was also a notably more skilled player (no offense Nightbird). This feeling is underscored by the fact that Krakilor broke out a vorpal in a kill count contest, and was going sword-and-board.

Again, not intending to offend, Nightbird... heck, I was even on the barbarian side of this discussion. And I know my suggestion is against the EULA and all that. Perhaps a substitute competitor

Though your post stings a little, I will explain it to you. :mad: I do admit that Renegade is a very skilled player. But, this is not my first trip around the bases either. Krakilor is my 3rd build to level 14 and 3rd build to 1750 favor. He is my 2nd Fighter build to level 14, though I have many others in my "To Do" pile, and for what he does, IMO he is a perfect build. Perfect stats, perfect gear, perfectly planned skill points. I spent a lot of time planning, and replanning Krakilor. I even rerolled him once because I wasn't happy with ONE skill point being out of place by mistake. He is an axe and board fighter. He is a Dwarven Tactics fighter. Do I use Great Axes? From time to time yes I do. If I go against mobs that don't hit me often or I want to take down fast, I have a couple of Great Axes I use for that. Is that what his bread and butter is? No it isn't. So why am I going to go into a competition and play my Axe and Board fighter with a two handed weapon? I don't have any of the THF feats, I don't have any of the whirlwind series besides Dodge. I don't have Cleave or Great Cleave. Why go into a football game with the playbook you have been training with all season, and throw it out and pick up the other teams and run that? It makes no sense.

I repeat once again, let me put it in caps for significance: THE REASON I BROKE OUT MY VORPAL DWARF AXE IS BECAUSE THERE WAS NO WAY I COULD KEEP UP WITH JELLYBEAN'S KILLING CAPACITY. He has a crit range of 13-20 on both hands. Str high as hell to confirm, and is sapping Constitution at the cyclic rate. He is doing 1d6+1 con dmg on a Crit 35% of the time, not to mention that he is pinging away con on every hit that isn't a crit x2 hands. He would literally hit a mob, and within 2-3 hits it was dead. Imagine that on a hasted Barbarian waving around to woundypunc rapiers? I guess you can not imagine it, so you come around to belittling me in my playstyle. The fact that you are questioning my style after we both have posted comments about how well we both did, well... im not going to get into a ****ing match about it. I guess you have to see to believe.

I will reiterate. I doubt there are any other players out there that can keep up with Jellybean, unless they are the same build with dual woundypunc rapiers. I would put plat on it, a significant amount.

Now on the matter of Blutus, I more or less held my own to what we had set the rules at. I fell a few short. In the end his crit range got me. I have a 19-20 x3 on my Dwarf Axes. Hardly the best, but I had pulled a couple nice Dwarf Axes, and wanted something different on my dwarf. It just didn't seem right putting my Khopeshes on a Dwarf especially since they get Axe Attack and Axe Dmg as enhancements. Compare the 19-20x3 to his 15-20x2 on SoS if Improved Crit doesn't stack, then it is 18-20x2. A bit tired right now can't remember if it does or not. And he has a time and a half dmg modifier on 2h wpn. I think Kraki did pretty damn good vs Blutus, and I was happy to get any kind of a kill while going vs. Jellybean.


There's no question a THF Fighter would have fared much better against Blutus. Although, versus Jellybean, little matters.

QFT


All it shows is your 2hand barb is gimped and your dual wield one is decent.

Both of his builds performed fine, I have seen some great Barb and 2h Fighter builds, and Blutus was up there, Jellybean was Tops.


That and the fact your a bit weird doing a DPS challenge with a caster instead of a bard. SoS is gimped compared to a proper greater bane greataxe with axe dmg.

Slim pickins on a Saturday morning at 8am. Crazy that people don't like to get up at 8am to help people do friendly banters. Or let alone watch a couple of warriors go at it to see who can outkill without participating in any fun themselves.


Sucks we aren't on the same server because I routinely outkill ppl who use wounding of puncturing weapons there by a large margin.

Routinely outperforming a Rog or a Rng with a woundypunc is one thing, but on a dual woundypunc rapier barb with insane crit range is another.

Need to see it to believe it.

Renegade66
09-01-2007, 12:29 PM
All it shows is your 2hand barb is gimped and your dual wield one is decent.

That and the fact your a bit weird doing a DPS challenge with a caster instead of a bard. SoS is gimped compared to a proper greater bane greataxe with axe dmg.

Sucks we aren't on the same server because I routinely outkill ppl who use wounding of puncturing weapons there by a large margin.

Really due to there HP and Con sorcerers can get the highest killcounts there. Granted that would require a massive supply of major mnemonic potions to do so, but ive seen it done. Actualy i've seen a cleric do it, outkilled 3 fighters by an insane margine just using slay living and destruction.

I don't understand your comment about caster vs bard. What difference does it make who hands out the hastes and casts the crowd control? Dumb statement.

I also don't understand why you are talking about Sorcerers ability to kill and whatnot. My Sorc can outkill either of my Barbarians any day. This comment seems a bit misplaced.

My THF Barb gimped? Uh, ok.... 46 STR, all the THF feats, Stunning Blow, SoS and Bloodstone, hits for 200pts on a roll of 13? I don't think so.

Jellybean much better? Yep. The only thing you said that makes any sense.

You being able to outkill Jellybean? Not a chance and you're just making yourself look even sillier by continuing to debate the reality of the situation. Your axe barb and my SoS barb are comparable and kills will be very close. The reality though is that neither have a chance against Jellybean.

Just get over yourself and admit it. I'll still let you be the self proclaimed Barbarian Guru.

Oh and btw, NightbirdX is a very skilled player. You guys writing it off as a skill issue are wrong. It was simply a build issue and gear issue.

loki523
09-01-2007, 12:37 PM
Sucks we aren't on the same server because I routinely outkill ppl who use wounding of puncturing weapons there by a large margin.

No you don't.

Ok I take that back. Maybe you routinely outkill ppl who use wounding of puncturing weapons.

You don't outkill skilled people who use wounding of puncturing. Not on a dps build. Not a chance.

I wish you were on my server too so I could smoke you with my ranger...

Renegade66
09-01-2007, 12:41 PM
I wish you were on my server too so I could smoke you with my ranger...

Jealousy dual wielding wounding of puncturing rapiers against Shade's cookie cutter axe barbarian? No question, Jealousy wins. I'd cover all plat bets and look forward to his new round of excuses why he is still the best.

bandyman1
09-01-2007, 12:43 PM
I don't understand your comment about caster vs bard. What difference does it make who hands out the hastes and casts the crowd control? Dumb statement.

I also don't understand why you are talking about Sorcerers ability to kill and whatnot. My Sorc can outkill either of my Barbarians any day. This comment seems a bit misplaced.

My THF Barb gimped? Uh, ok.... 46 STR, all the THF feats, Stunning Blow, SoS and Bloodstone, hits for 200pts on a roll of 13? I don't think so.

Jellybean much better? Yep. The only thing you said that makes any sense.

You being able to outkill Jellybean? Not a chance and you're just making yourself look even sillier by continuing to debate the reality of the situation. Your axe barb and my SoS barb are comparable and kills will be very close. The reality though is that neither have a chance against Jellybean.

Just get over yourself and admit it. I'll still let you be the self proclaimed Barbarian Guru.

Oh and btw, NightbirdX is a very skilled player. You guys writing it off as a skill issue are wrong. It was simply a build issue and gear issue.

Only reason I can think of bard over caster is the song boosts to attack and damage. Ever notice in every one of his SS where he " soloed " whatever he has a bard and a cleric?

As for everything else you said, spot on.

Guy's an ass. You know it, I know it, and everyone else knows it. So don't worry about his comments too much. Noone really takes him seriously.

Taerdra
09-01-2007, 12:58 PM
With Jellybean, what weapons are you using? 2 picks or something else?

bandyman1
09-01-2007, 01:02 PM
With Jellybean, what weapons are you using? 2 picks or something else?

NightbirdX's OP says he is using rapiers.

Renegade66
09-01-2007, 01:07 PM
With Jellybean, what weapons are you using? 2 picks or something else?

Twin wounding of puncturing rapiers. Twin rapier smiters, banishers, disruptors too. DPS: +4 Icy Burst Cold Iron Rapier of Pure Good and a +3 version of the same.

Shade
09-01-2007, 02:13 PM
lol flames from a old man who proclaims BS about a group focused mmo.

Sorry but from a guy who
- uses geocities for hosting (lol your isp is AOL too right?)
- proclaims total BS and no one would ever consider backing up
- flames people on a message board when hes 40+ years old
-is proclaimed as so great yet cannot even build a 6man group or get a bard

Really isn't that insulting sorry. But hey welcome to my ignore list.

And about me:
- I have never posted anything saying I solo'd something. I think soloing is stupid in this game and have posted to that belief many times
- I post screenshots for fun of real quests, and help players with real answers. I dont sugar coat anything and don't promote my build every post. Infact I wasn't even going to repost my build except someone made a request.. (You offer to tell people of your build, but no one asks or cares)
- Always group with bards because I have allot of bard friends on my server and find it easy and more fun to group and do better as result
- Don't need to back up what I say because I have enough rep that others will know, was listed in the best of the best for my server in several posts

Anyways, welcome to there internet, your about 20 years late and have allot to learn.

Cathus
09-01-2007, 02:47 PM
you guys are all on the same server. It's called Risia. They did a fresh char copy last week. Go gather your favorite bard, arcane and cleric and battle it out.

LordGT
09-01-2007, 02:49 PM
Couldn't u guys just to Risia to beat your chests and truly see?

LastNameRage
09-01-2007, 03:07 PM
If you 2 decide to go and do it on risia, give us a heads up in advance. Can't wait to see what Shade thinks up to say after being doubled in kills by an elf barb ;)

Renegade66
09-01-2007, 03:38 PM
Should be fun. I'll install Risia this weekend.

Renegade66
09-01-2007, 04:31 PM
I expect we'll only hear crickets chirping.....

NightbirdX
09-01-2007, 05:42 PM
I'll run my Clr for this one, I do wanna see.

teddok
09-01-2007, 05:52 PM
I would love to take that challenge. I think i could do a little better.

Renegade66
09-01-2007, 06:12 PM
I would love to take that challenge. I think i could do a little better.

This challenge is exclusively for a certain big mouth who's seemingly all bark and no bite.

Clay
09-01-2007, 10:41 PM
lol flames from a old man who proclaims BS about a group focused mmo.

Sorry but from a guy who
- uses geocities for hosting (lol your isp is AOL too right?)
- proclaims total BS and no one would ever consider backing up
- flames people on a message board when hes 40+ years old
-is proclaimed as so great yet cannot even build a 6man group or get a bard

Really isn't that insulting sorry. But hey welcome to my ignore list.

And about me:
- I have never posted anything saying I solo'd something. I think soloing is stupid in this game and have posted to that belief many times
- I post screenshots for fun of real quests, and help players with real answers. I dont sugar coat anything and don't promote my build every post. Infact I wasn't even going to repost my build except someone made a request.. (You offer to tell people of your build, but no one asks or cares)
- Always group with bards because I have allot of bard friends on my server and find it easy and more fun to group and do better as result
- Don't need to back up what I say because I have enough rep that others will know, was listed in the best of the best for my server in several posts

Anyways, welcome to there internet, your about 20 years late and have allot to learn.

what diff does it make where he posts the proof? at least there is some evidence to support his words... where is yours showing you "routinely outkill ppl who use wounding of puncturing weapons." Or is that along the lines of "my dad can beat up your dad?"

interesting, that from a child accusing another of not backing things up, you seem reluctant to actually do so yourself.

never seen renegade flame anyone. this coming from a child focussed on age equalling skill is especially amusing.

perhaps there wasn't a 6 man group b/c they didn't need any other babysitters. some of us can actually play without depending on 5 other members to heal/buff/haste/hold our hands. (No offense to those who, like myself, enjoy the company of a group rather than soloing)

if you don't need to back up what you say cuz you are so great... why do you feel the need seek attention saying how poor others are? are you feeling a little insecure?

Renegade clearly stated that he was using "nothing special" by using the SoS... that was the whole point. Good thing you are mastering reading in school.

I look forward to seeing you accept Jellybean's challenge...

Strakeln
09-01-2007, 10:59 PM
THE REASON I BROKE OUT MY VORPAL DWARF AXE IS BECAUSE THERE WAS NO WAY I COULD KEEP UP WITH JELLYBEAN'S KILLING CAPACITY.This is exactly what I mean. You're in a kill count contest and you're losing, so you whip out the weapon that will make you lose more? Any player experienced in bogarding the kill count knows that hasn't been effective since before mod 3.

I'm not doubting your build or equipment or general skill, but when it comes to the selfish art of stroking one's e-peen via the kill count, I think you may be lacking. There are many who would say that is a not an undesirable trait.

Sojourner
09-01-2007, 11:10 PM
I'm not doubting your build or equipment or general skill, but when it comes to the selfish art of stroking one's e-peen via the kill count, I think you may be lacking. There are many who would say that is a not an undesirable trait.

LOL - I hereby award you a shiny penny for the most backwards sounding compliment of the night.

Strakeln
09-01-2007, 11:52 PM
LOL - I hereby award you a shiny penny for the most backwards sounding compliment of the night.Thanks, I spent some time trying to get it right :p

loki523
09-02-2007, 01:33 AM
I look forward to seeing you accept Jellybean's challenge...

No way! I'm hijacking Ren's hijack. I want to embarass him on my ranger first. :p

Renegade66
09-02-2007, 01:50 AM
No way! I'm hijacking Ren's hijack. I want to embarass him on my ranger first. :p

You can have him. Once you're done humiliating him, I'll smoke him with Jelly or Blutus.

geezee
09-02-2007, 04:12 AM
What's jellybean's build?

NightbirdX
09-02-2007, 06:36 AM
perhaps there wasn't a 6 man group b/c they didn't need any other babysitters. some of us can actually play without depending on 5 other members to heal/buff/haste/hold our hands. (No offense to those who, like myself, enjoy the company of a group rather than soloing)


There really weren't all that many people on at the time. We wanted to take people who could understand what we were trying to do. I had one friend that could help, and Ren had another. We in no way needed anyone else in there to help kill. We did fine just by ourselves.


This is exactly what I mean. You're in a kill count contest and you're losing, so you whip out the weapon that will make you lose more? Any player experienced in bogarding the kill count knows that hasn't been effective since before mod 3.

I'm not doubting your build or equipment or general skill, but when it comes to the selfish art of stroking one's e-peen via the kill count, I think you may be lacking. There are many who would say that is a not an undesirable trait.

I'll tell you exactly what weapons I was using prior to breaking out my Vorpal. I have a +3 True Law Dwarf Axe of Greater Monstrous Humanoid Bane, that I use for Mino's, +4 Flaming Burst Dwarf Axe of Pure Good, that I use for General Melee DPS, a +4 Acid Dwarf Axe of Righteousness that I use vs things immune to Fire, a +1 Vicious Dwarf Axe of Disruption, and my +2 Ghost Touch Heavy Mace of Greater Undead Bane, which I used to when Disruptor wasn't really being effective. I used others minimally such as my +1 Axiomatic Burst D. Axe of Pure Good, or my +4 True Law D.Axe of Pure Good. None of these weapons could kill things fast enough. Nothing I had could match the dual woundypunc rapiers. It really is insane how fast things died when he was on Jellybean. Its easy to sit back and tell me that I was dumb for using my Vorpal, but truly it was the only way I could get a kill on fleshies.


LOL - I hereby award you a shiny penny for the most backwards sounding compliment of the night.

QFT

Justicesar
09-02-2007, 08:11 AM
Looks like a fun test of builds but the 2 Wounding of Puncturing Rapiers- (Insert Any piercing Tank Build) should always come out on top. Thankfully most cannot equip their toons as such or Turbine would have to make the next tier of mobs, named or not , immune to stat damage. I have yet to find a Wounding Rapier of Puncturing and wanted to know what the difference is when only one is equiped....do the numbers fall to half...Or is the WP Rapier still the BOSS?? I saw one on the auction house for 20 Million Plat....tad to salty so I'll keep looking.

Strakeln
09-02-2007, 09:25 AM
I'll tell you exactly what weapons I was using prior to breaking out my Vorpal. I have a +3 True Law Dwarf Axe of Greater Monstrous Humanoid Bane, that I use for Mino's, +4 Flaming Burst Dwarf Axe of Pure Good, that I use for General Melee DPS, a +4 Acid Dwarf Axe of Righteousness that I use vs things immune to Fire, a +1 Vicious Dwarf Axe of Disruption, and my +2 Ghost Touch Heavy Mace of Greater Undead Bane, which I used to when Disruptor wasn't really being effective. I used others minimally such as my +1 Axiomatic Burst D. Axe of Pure Good, or my +4 True Law D.Axe of Pure Good. None of these weapons could kill things fast enough. Nothing I had could match the dual woundypunc rapiers. It really is insane how fast things died when he was on Jellybean. Its easy to sit back and tell me that I was dumb for using my Vorpal, but truly it was the only way I could get a kill on fleshies.Ouch, not one two-hander listed. There was a reason the original thread was called "Barb vs 2h Ftr", and not "Barb vs sword-and-board fighter". That reason is because no one even considered for a second that a sword-and-board fighter would be able to keep up. It wasn't even part of the discussion.

You showed up to the gun fight wielding a knife.

Renegade66
09-02-2007, 09:53 AM
What's jellybean's build?

Jellybean: Level 14 Elven Barbarian, CG, Male

STR = 21 base + 2 inherent + 0 Feat + 6 enchant = 29
STR (raged) = 29 + 2 rage pot + 2 madstone boots + 2 madston boot effect + 10 power rage = 45

DEX = 16 base + 1 inherent + 0 Feat + 5 enchant = 22
Note: 17 DEX required for TWF Feats (base/inherent only considered)

CON = 14 base + 2 inherent + 2 Feat + 6 enchant = 24
CON (raged) = 24 + 2 rage pot + 4 madstone boots + 4 madston boot effect + 8 power rage = 42

INT = 8 base + 0 inherent + 0 Feat + 0 enchant = 8

WIS = 8 base + 2 inherent + 0 Feat + 6 enchant = 16

CHA = 8 base + 0 inherent + 0 Feat + 0 enchant = 8

HP = 326
HP (raged) = 452

Saves (raged):
Fort = 30
Ref = 15 (22 with Improved Uncany Dodge)
Will = 18 (25 vs Enchantment and not much isn't)

BAB = +14
SR = 0 (19 with Ring)
Fort = 100%
DR = 5 / -

AC = 43 (standing with Shield), 49 Impr Uncany Dodge
AC (fully raged w/ shield) = 43, 49 Impr Uncany Dodge
AC (fully raged w/o shield) = 34, 40 Impr Uncany Dodge

Feats (All Std Barbarian plus the following selected):
Stunning Blow
TWF
Improved TWF
Improved Crit Pierce
Greater TWF

Enhancements:
DR Boost II
Sprint Boost II
Critical Rage II
Extend Rage IV
Extra Rage III (7 Rages per Rest over 3 min each)
Hardy Rage II
Power Rage IV
Elven Enchantment Resistance I
Elven Melee Attack II (+2 to-hit rapier/longsword)
Elven Melee Damage I (+1 dmg rapier/longsword)
Constitution II

Equipment:
Goggles: Sandstorm Goggles (True Seeing, Blindness Immunity)
Helm: +6 WIS Bandana
Necklace: +6 CON
Trinket: Kardin's Eye (+5 Resistance)
Cloak: +5 Protection
Belt: Belt of Brute Stength (+6 STR, Greater False Life)
Ring 1: Chattering Ring (+3 AC Dodge Bonus, +13 Spot, -10 Move Silently)
Ring 2: Ancient Band (Heavy Fortification, +3 Protection)
Ring Clickie: Two Seals of the Earth (6 charges DR10/Adamantine, 120 total, 12 min duration)
Gloves: +5 DEX
Boots: Madstone Boots (20% Striding, +4 DEX, Potency VII)
-----> Madstone Rage Clickie Effect (20% Melee Haste, +2 STR, +4 CON, +4 AC Natural Bonus)
-----> When hit STR/CON bonus double to (20% Melee Haste, +4 STR, +8 CON, +4 AC Natural Bonus)
Bracers: Bracers of the Demon's Consort (Demonic Curse, Demonic Shield, Demonic Retribution)
Armor: +5 Mithril Fullplate
Shield: Madstone Shield

Weapon to-hit (+1 weapons & fully raged w/ GH from Planar Girds)
Primary Hand = 36
Off-hand = 34
Dual Rapiers = 34/34

Weaponry:
Primary: Twin +1 Wounding Rapiers of Puncturing
DPS: +4 Icy Burst Cold Iron Rapier or Pure Good, +3 version of same
Undead: +1 Ghost Touch Longsword of Disruption, +2 Rapier of Disruption
Elementals: +1 Banishing Rapier of Tendon Slice, +1 Banishing Rapier
Constructs: +1 Ghost Touch Rapier of Smiting, +1 Rapier of Smiting

I think that's about it. Let me know if you have any questions.

Ren

Cold_Stele
09-02-2007, 11:39 AM
He is an axe and board fighter. He is a Dwarven Tactics fighter. Do I use Great Axes? From time to time yes I do.

I'm not sure I understand the point of this challenge as regards Barb vs Fighter - Nightbird is an axe & shield Tactics Fighter, not a DPS Fighter. There's absolutely no way he was ever going to come close to winning his challenge.

Even if he was to play an identical Fighter to himself who had THF feats instead of Tactics feats he'd lose by a considerable margin.

This challenge means nothing TBH - what we'd need to see for comparison of Barb vs Fighter is 2 toons with THF feats and identical weapons (SOS or whatever).

I don't mean to criticize Nightbird, or take away from Jellybean's victory either - they were the wrong builds to compare to each other, pure and simple. I actually think these two would have been better suited to go PvP against each other - a comparison of DPS vs Trip/Stun would have made much more sense.



/Stele

Renegade66
09-02-2007, 12:06 PM
Still waiting for whatshisname to take up the Risia challenge. Night and I were just having fun and he was the only person with ballz enough to take up the challenge.

PurdueDave
09-02-2007, 12:13 PM
Big props to you two guys for being willing to "put up or shut up" so to speak.

Jaysensen
09-02-2007, 06:15 PM
A
I routinely outkill ppl who use wounding of puncturing weapons there by a large margin.


I dont doubt this. The real question is: have you out killed a highly skilled player with dual W/P rapiers?

The sad reality is that there are a lot of people (especially Fighters) on Khyber with W/P Rapiers who arent very good twitch players. Or arent very good period.

geezee
09-02-2007, 08:52 PM
What skills do you recommend for a barb like this, Ren?

Renegade66
09-02-2007, 08:58 PM
I think I took Balance, Jump and Swim.

tihocan
09-02-2007, 09:48 PM
and Swim.
I guess you were a newbie when you created this build then?

Renegade66
09-02-2007, 11:19 PM
I guess you were a newbie when you created this build then?

Ha ha. Not sure what I was thinking. Nothing else would have been much better.

NightbirdX
09-02-2007, 11:59 PM
Ouch, not one two-hander listed. There was a reason the original thread was called "Barb vs 2h Ftr", and not "Barb vs sword-and-board fighter". That reason is because no one even considered for a second that a sword-and-board fighter would be able to keep up. It wasn't even part of the discussion.

You showed up to the gun fight wielding a knife.


I'm not sure I understand the point of this challenge as regards Barb vs Fighter - Nightbird is an axe & shield Tactics Fighter, not a DPS Fighter. There's absolutely no way he was ever going to come close to winning his challenge.

Even if he was to play an identical Fighter to himself who had THF feats instead of Tactics feats he'd lose by a considerable margin.

This challenge means nothing TBH - what we'd need to see for comparison of Barb vs Fighter is 2 toons with THF feats and identical weapons (SOS or whatever).

I don't mean to criticize Nightbird, or take away from Jellybean's victory either - they were the wrong builds to compare to each other, pure and simple. I actually think these two would have been better suited to go PvP against each other - a comparison of DPS vs Trip/Stun would have made much more sense.



/Stele


"Donny you're like a child that wanders in in the middle of a movie and wants to know whats going on..."

Have you guys been paying attention to anything that we have been posting between these 2 posts?

I KNEW that I wasn't going to be able to keep up or even beat him in the kill count. My object was to get at least half of the kills that he had. If I got that many kills, then I would win the match. We already knew he was going to have more kills than me. This had been determined a long time ago in the post that had preceded this. I have a couple of Great axes that I keep on me for certain occasions. But, I really don't use them full time, like I have stated time and time again, Kraki is an axe/board fighter.

I know there was an original thread on 2h Fighter vs Barb. I STARTED IT! Ren had made the comment that he would slay anyone by at least a 2 to 1 margin, and I said that he wouldn't be able to on my Axe and Board Fighter. I knew what I was getting myself into. Kraki is a great build and does very well in any PUG that I have joined. He is almost always tops in kill count. That is why I said that I would be able to beat the 2 to 1 odds. We weren't trying to compare builds, we weren't trying to say who was better, because we already knew who the better slayer was.

It was a simple gentlemen's bet saying that he could out kill anyone 2 to 1 and I took him up on it. Some people wanted to see it, we wanted to know how it would go down, so we set it up.

Please perhaps you should start at the beginning of the old thread and progress to the new one only after you have thoroughly read it, and know what is going on and what the situation is.

Fallout
09-03-2007, 10:15 AM
This should have different categories since some of these builds are weapon based.

TWF W/P weapons are just sick. But since this is a weapon specific build, what if devs decide one day puncturing is overpowered and they removed it? Or puncture on a natural roll of 20 and against a save? That effectively reduce that build by a huge margin.

Its like a barb goes into a WF quest with a smiting scimitar. Does that prove the barb has a good build?

This is more of a uber weapon contest instead of a character build contest. If want to make this more of a build contest, then use DPS rapiers instead of stat rapiers. And the fighter a DPS weapon also. I would be interested to see that result.

Ilundel
09-03-2007, 11:12 AM
Alright, so I was actually interested in seeing how Jellybean's build would stack up to a TW Fighter build, so being a guildy of Jelly's, we discussed doing the same challenge with my TW Fighter Build (Ilundel). We set it up and went for it. Basically my build is very simple, 32 STR, precision feat (and power attack in case needed), Piering weapon focuses (both) and improve crit, two weapon fighting style (all of them) with enhancements for confirm crit IV (+8), haste boost (max + extra 1 time, for 6 haste boosts).

I won't list the rest of the build because it doesn't matter for to-hit and criticals.

Basically, I have a wounding of puncturing rapier and a wounding of puncturing of hand dagger, Jelly used the same weapons. I haste boosted everytime there was enough mobs for it to be worth it, used all of them with all the shrines.

The results came in as followed:
Jellybean got 113 kills (59.2%)
Ilundel got 78 kills (40.8%)

Let me tell you, it was hella fun, the run took 39 minutes on elite. I salute Jelly for playing his build perfectly. To be honest I thought the result would indeed come in as they did, with him getting most of the kills but being not so far behind. Jelly will post the screenies I took, in case you guys are interested.

Strakeln
09-03-2007, 11:15 AM
Alright, so I was actually interested in seeing how Jellybean's build would stack up to a TW Fighter build, so being a guildy of Jelly's, we discussed doing the same challenge with my TW Fighter Build (Ilundel). We set it up and went for it. Basically my build is very simple, 32 STR, precision feat (and power attack in case needed), Piering weapon focuses (both) and improve crit, two weapon fighting style (all of them) with enhancements for confirm crit IV (+8), haste boost (max + extra 1 time, for 6 haste boosts).

I won't list the rest of the build because it doesn't matter for to-hit and criticals.

Basically, I have a wounding of puncturing rapier and a wounding of puncturing of hand dagger, Jelly used the same weapons. I haste boosted everytime there was enough mobs for it to be worth it, used all of them with all the shrines.

The results came in as followed:
Jellybean got 113 kills (59.2%)
Ilundel got 78 kills (40.8%)

Let me tell you, it was hella fun, the run took 39 minutes on elite. I salute Jelly for playing his build perfectly. To be honest I thought the result would indeed come in as they did, with him getting most of the kills but being not so far behind. Jelly will post the screenies I took, in case you guys are interested.Much more like results I would expect from a more balanced matchup.

Jaywade
09-03-2007, 11:32 AM
2 weapon fighting can be sick I have a dwarf that uses axes and does pretty sick damage, I couldn't keep up w/ jellybean but does sick damage never the less.... the key here is the the the combo of weapon and weapon effect / and racial and class abilites...... the wound/punct on a elf barb is insane a +1 weapon becomes a +3, added with rage not only is the to hit increased but the crit range to a 13...so 8 die rolls out of 1d20 mean a crit or 2-7 con gone.....it's easy to see how effective this is.....too bad it's the rarest weapon out there, hey I have 4 vorps, I know people that have 8..... a wound/punct rapier....it's worth 10 vorps... I've been looking for these for my malcis(drow multi rogue) forever best I've been able to come up with is a long bow with that effect.... last note I can't see the dev's changing stat damage becasue of this build.....there's not enough of these weapons out there, I do wish they would add it to slashing weapons though(hey wounding is) casue I would love a scimy w/ that!!!!! reminds me of back when vorp worked with a crit not a 20

Mhykke
09-03-2007, 01:17 PM
I don't get the way this challenge was set up either.

This isn't about comparing a ftr w/ a barb, or a build vs. another build.

This is comparing someone wielding 2 w/p rapiers vs. some other weapon. If I just knew that info. I'd bet on the dual rapier wielder.

Renegade66
09-03-2007, 04:16 PM
Jelly will post the screenies I took, in case you guys are interested.

http://www.geocities.com/renegade66.geo/ScreenShot00148

Maldini
09-03-2007, 04:47 PM
All you guys are too much talk. Go to Risia where all your characters are on the same server with the same gear or be quiet. Do your challenges there instead of using the "we're not on the same server" argument.

And to be honest, the SoS isn't the best weapon in the game.

And to the OP, you're not really doing anything special going TWF. I sometimes do it with Maldini and Heavy Picks and I'm not specced in TWF. I still do good damage.

When your base melee build is solid, pretty much anything you do with it will be good.

Also if you really want to show how effective your TWF barb is then get two +5 normal weapons and go against a barb with a plain +5 greataxe.

Ilundel
09-03-2007, 05:36 PM
Well then Maldini, you may not be a mathematicien, neither am I but I deal in mathematics all the time, to be blunt, if you put a standard +5 Khopesh doubled with either another +5 Khopesh or +5 hand axe on a barbarian build, and put a +5 greataxe on another and battle it out with bard buffs and everything else, I would bet all my plat on the guy wielding two weapons, and I mean ALL my plat with no exception. Heck, I would even put a Dwarven Axe with Hand axe combo and still would bet all my plat there.

The goal of this challenge was simple, it was never about DPS, it was about who would kill the most mobs and who would kill their mobs faster and the results are in - a dual wielding wounding of puncturing rapier outkills a sword and board fighter and kills faster then a barb with two handed weapon and a sword of shadows. Put the same gear in a barb as you would a fighter and both spec'ed for piercing and both wieilding dual wounding of puncturing and your barb also outkills the fighter by a margin. This game isn't all about DPS you know, if you kill mobs faster then you complete the quest faster and demand less healing due to downing mobs faster. Sure DPS is good for boss fights, but for those fights, i'm sure Jellybean's build can dish out good enough DPS.

Seriously, Renegade has extended his challenge to Shade on the Risia server earlier in this thread, all i'm hearing right now is crickets chirping...


All you guys are too much talk. Go to Risia where all your characters are on the same server with the same gear or be quiet. Do your challenges there instead of using the "we're not on the same server" argument.

And to be honest, the SoS isn't the best weapon in the game.

And to the OP, you're not really doing anything special going TWF. I sometimes do it with Maldini and Heavy Picks and I'm not specced in TWF. I still do good damage.

When your base melee build is solid, pretty much anything you do with it will be good.

Also if you really want to show how effective your TWF barb is then get two +5 normal weapons and go against a barb with a plain +5 greataxe.

Maldini
09-03-2007, 07:26 PM
Well then Maldini, you may not be a mathematicien, neither am I but I deal in mathematics all the time, to be blunt, if you put a standard +5 Khopesh doubled with either another +5 Khopesh or +5 hand axe on a barbarian build, and put a +5 greataxe on another and battle it out with bard buffs and everything else, I would bet all my plat on the guy wielding two weapons, and I mean ALL my plat with no exception. Heck, I would even put a Dwarven Axe with Hand axe combo and still would bet all my plat there.

The goal of this challenge was simple, it was never about DPS, it was about who would kill the most mobs and who would kill their mobs faster and the results are in - a dual wielding wounding of puncturing rapier outkills a sword and board fighter and kills faster then a barb with two handed weapon and a sword of shadows. Put the same gear in a barb as you would a fighter and both spec'ed for piercing and both wieilding dual wounding of puncturing and your barb also outkills the fighter by a margin. This game isn't all about DPS you know, if you kill mobs faster then you complete the quest faster and demand less healing due to downing mobs faster. Sure DPS is good for boss fights, but for those fights, i'm sure Jellybean's build can dish out good enough DPS.

Seriously, Renegade has extended his challenge to Shade on the Risia server earlier in this thread, all i'm hearing right now is crickets chirping...


If we're talking pure damage, then you have to take into account splash damage. You don't get that with TWF, but you get 20 - 25 x number of mobs in AoE. That's considerable. Plus you get huge crit numbers with two-handed weapons. The only one-handed weapon that can even come close in terms of crit damge is a good Heavy Pick. So I were to dual-wield, I would go with two good picks, whether they be Heavy and Light or both Heavy.

Also, from reading above, Shade probably put some of you on ignore and is probably ignoring this thread all together. Send him a PM.

I have to disagree with you about the DPS remark. The game along with any action-fantasy MMO IS about DPS. Whether it be in the form of spell damage from an arcane or melee damage from a...well, melee. The faster you kill things, the more efficient you are. The more efficient you are, the more you get accomplished. I have yet to see a person running about with Masterwork weapons at Level 14. The reason is, is because everyone who plays appreciates the importance of DPS.

Mhykke
09-03-2007, 07:41 PM
The goal of this challenge was simple, it was never about DPS, it was about who would kill the most mobs and who would kill their mobs faster and the results are in - a dual wielding wounding of puncturing rapier outkills a sword and board fighter and kills faster then a barb with two handed weapon and a sword of shadows.


I'm not disagreeing w/ you.

I just don't think the title of the post should've been "barb v. ftr challenge."

It's a w/p rapier(s) v. other weapons challenge.

Fallout
09-03-2007, 08:06 PM
I'm not disagreeing w/ you.

I just don't think the title of the post should've been "barb v. ftr challenge."

It's a w/p rapier(s) v. other weapons challenge.

Agree. This just simply shows how overpowered W/P rapiers are. This does not show skill or build. It just shows how powerful the weapon is.

GeneralDiomedes
09-03-2007, 08:22 PM
Agree. This just simply shows how overpowered W/P rapiers are. This does not show skill or build. It just shows how powerful the weapon is.

Actually if you want to get technical shows how powerful the Barb improved crit enhancement is.

Renegade66
09-03-2007, 08:31 PM
Actually if you want to get technical shows how powerful the Barb improved crit enhancement is.

Exactly. Same builds. Same skill level. Same weapons. Fighter has 30% attack speed boost to offset increased crit range. The results were that the barbarian dominated. A very good comparison for what it's worth.

BTW, no way what's his name has us all squelched. He just knows he'll lose. No shame in it, but he simply can't bring himself to admit the obvious. Makes him a less than valuable resource for barbarian expertise.

Maldini
09-03-2007, 09:36 PM
Exactly. Same builds. Same skill level. Same weapons. Fighter has 30% attack speed boost to offset increased crit range. The results were that the barbarian dominated. A very good comparison for what it's worth.

BTW, no way what's his name has us all squelched. He just knows he'll lose. No shame in it, but he simply can't bring himself to admit the obvious. Makes him a less than valuable resource for barbarian expertise.

His barb's powerful. It's a standard pure DPS dwarf. He's all geared up though and he makes his own groups, so he's always at max DPS. That's how he likes to play. I've ran a Madstone Elite run and we did the Dragon's on Elite. Needless to say, it was a bloodbath.

Fallout
09-03-2007, 10:56 PM
Exactly. Same builds. Same skill level. Same weapons. Fighter has 30% attack speed boost to offset increased crit range. The results were that the barbarian dominated. A very good comparison for what it's worth.


Where is the same weapons? The contest one party dual wield rapiers while the other person used a vorpal.

What I'm saying is that the contest doesn't show much because one party had a very lopsided advantage in weapons. Just like someone with +5 weapon is going to beat someone using master work.

For the 'contest' to work, have to use similar class weapons.

What if a fighter has a slashing scimitar and goes on a construct infested quest while the TWF barb did not use W/P. Then that contest will heavily favor the fighter.

So as a 'comparison' this contest was heavily favored to one side.

Or do a quest that has undead and no one use disruptors.

Sydril
09-04-2007, 12:27 AM
So much talk and hype when its really just all about gear. I've run with renegade in some pugs when he's been on jelly and its a good build. Heck I rolled a drow ranger 2 barb and am quite happy with it. But none of these builds mean squat without the fancy gear.

Don't get me wrong, theres definitely a lot of skill involved but this is just a contest of gear. Do it with straight up +5 weapons and the results may have some merit.

Maldini
09-04-2007, 12:29 AM
So much talk and hype when its really just all about gear. I've run with renegade in some pugs when he's been on jelly and its a good build. Heck I rolled a drow ranger 2 barb and am quite happy with it. But none of these builds mean squat without the fancy gear.

Don't get me wrong, theres definitely a lot of skill involved but this is just a contest of gear. Do it with straight up +5 weapons and the results may have some merit.

Hell, if they want to get fancy, they could even use plain +5 of Righteousness :)

bandyman1
09-04-2007, 06:28 AM
Hell, if they want to get fancy, they could even use plain +5 of Righteousness :)

Shade made the comment about " Too bad we aren't on the same server ".

He's also the one who claims he can " routinely outkill dual-wielded w/p ".

He threw down the gauntlet, he needs to put up or shut up.

Not about DPS anymore. It's about him thinking he's the God of melee and no one else comes close.

I respect ya Mal, but if the kid's going to run his mouth ( over and over ad nauseum.....probably still ****ed that the jocks slapped him around in high school ), let him fight his own battles.

Renegade66
09-04-2007, 07:00 AM
Where is the same weapons? The contest one party dual wield rapiers while the other person used a vorpal.


I was referring to the second challenge against Illundel. He and I both had a w/p puncturing rapier and w/p dagger.

HorridForm
09-04-2007, 07:22 AM
I havent looked at Renegades build but I can say that being in possession of 2 wounding of puncturing rapiers makes a considerable difference in his power level. The truth is that my Ranger who also duel wields the same items on top of being able to self heal, self buff, and kite 20 mobs togather and then eat them alive with multi shot wounding of puncture bow will probably net the same result.

I think it would be an intresting gentlemans bet to see how well this build competes against a Ranger. I think I would rather go toe to toe, meaning no help from outsiders, just the 2 of us running thru madstone, gianthold tor, or whatever...

LastNameRage
09-05-2007, 02:07 AM
I havent looked at Renegades build but I can say that being in possession of 2 wounding of puncturing rapiers makes a considerable difference in his power level. The truth is that my Ranger who also duel wields the same items on top of being able to self heal, self buff, and kite 20 mobs togather and then eat them alive with multi shot wounding of puncture bow will probably net the same result.

I think it would be an intresting gentlemans bet to see how well this build competes against a Ranger. I think I would rather go toe to toe, meaning no help from outsiders, just the 2 of us running thru madstone, gianthold tor, or whatever...


I'll take that bet and your gonna regret......

I bet you will land maybe 30% of the kills in a group against Jelly. Your 19-20 crit range wounding of puncturing bow holds nothing on not one but 2 13-20 wounding of puncturing rapiers. There is no comparison. If your have the rapier's then you may be able to get half of his kills, I still doubt that though. Also, Ren never claimed his build to be more survivable then a ranger or any other class, the build is still reliant on cleric's, haste monkey's etc... Having a solo toe to toe contest with him would just mean he'd be blowing lotsa plat slamming haste and heal pots, again, the debate is about raw killing power, not survivability/solo survivability.

If Ren had to beat everyone who thought they had a chance over on risia... He would never be on our server anymore and would probably be out of his rl job too.

And for those that knock his build by saying it's gear dependant, your wrong. There has been an influx of guys building similair builds using high + Burst of puncturing rapier's...And they do very well also, not aswell as Ren does...But they can still come close to an SoS barb if they have some skill.

DaveyCrockett
09-05-2007, 02:59 AM
I find it hilarious that Shade disappeared from this thread (which he appeared quite interested in) once the Risia challenge was mentioned.

Maldini
09-05-2007, 03:13 AM
Knowing Shade, he got upset and just won't come back to this thread. That's another reason why I would send him a PM and do it right instead of taunting him in a thread that he probably won't look at again.

Maldini
09-05-2007, 03:14 AM
I guess you were a newbie when you created this build then?

I put points into Swim and never regretted it, especially when I do the Cruicible, as well as any quest with an underwater section. It basically allows me to never have to put on an Underwater Action item.

DaveyCrockett
09-05-2007, 03:15 AM
Knowing Shade, he got upset and just won't come back to this thread. That's another reason why I would send him a PM and do it right instead of taunting him in a thread that he probably won't look at again.

Ok, I just sent him the PM.. We'll see what happens

Clay
09-05-2007, 06:18 AM
Knowing Shade, he got upset and just won't come back to this thread. That's another reason why I would send him a PM and do it right instead of taunting him in a thread that he probably won't look at again.

As someone mentioned earlier, Shade's actions were along the line of:

Shade says, "hey dirty toilet paper ! You suck!. I'll meet you out back after school and rearrange your face. "

After school.

...

...

Next day: Class Announcment: Shade has now moved to Timbuktoo and will no longer be with us. We wish him well and hope he doesn't write.

Shade threw down the challenge... he should be man enough to allow others to take him up on it.

NightbirdX
09-05-2007, 07:41 AM
Ren's build is more efficient heal wise because he kills so damn quick. If everything is dead before it touches you, then why do you need to heal? :) Though in our challenge his Barb's did die a couple of times. Blutus took a bunch more dmg than Jelly though because he wasn't able to kill as fast.

Renegade66
09-05-2007, 08:30 AM
A few responses:

To Sydril:
A dwarven axe wielding Barbarian can be awesome even without uber greataxes.
A human THF Barbarian can be awesome even without a Sword of Shadows.
Just grab a burst falchion of pure good for example.
The same holds true for the Jellybean build. Get a couple nice puncturing weapons that are easy to find and you will still be uber. Also, w/p shortswords and daggers will work really well too and they are much easier to acquire than the rapier versions.

One of the greatest benefits of a TWF vs THF is aggro control. Hypnotic Pattern or a single charmed monster can hold aggro on the entire mob while Jellybean kills each one individually without ever taking aggro. Meaning the monster is dead before it even knows it's being hit while his buddies are still staring at the pretty lights or beating the snot out of their once partner in crime. On the other hand, a THF barbarian will blow apart the hypno and other mezzes with their glancing blows and then start getting pounded. Or else, they can try to stand back and pick one off at a time, but this is where the twf version excels anyway.

To Tihocan:
Swim is very nice. I took another look at what I could have taken based on the criticism and I have no regrets. None of the other choices made a whole lot of sense and at times it's pretty nice having a huge swim score.

To HorridForm:
Jelly has gone against Jealousy who could be the best dual wielding w/p rangers in the game. The kill count will be very close, but in the end Jelly can kill faster due to the crit range. In general, I can kill my guy then go over to his and get half of those kills (i.e. random who gets last hit). He also tends to die more, since he has about half the hit points. He does better when he only fights the monster I'm on so he can rely on last hit luck. Again, he'll be very close to the same number of kills (could even be more). Now, I don't see this working well with a bow due to the attack speed and reduced crit range (btw I have a pure archer build with w/p bow). Finally, I have no intention of running Madstone Elite crater with only a ranger in tow. I'll spend most my time chugging pots and you'll spend most your time healing us.

To Maldini:
Not trying to pick a fight with you but are you Shade's Momma? I have no idea why he's trying to say an axe barb can kill faster than dual w/p rapiers, but he is. Plus, he laid out the challenge . . . "I routinely outkill people fighting with w/p, etc.". So be it. I took him up on it and he ran like a scared school girl. He doesn't have us all squelched and he has posted on other threads, plus now he has a PM from DaveyCrockett. He knows what's up and should be fighting his own battles.
I'm going to make this easy and tell him what he should do. He should come back and say, "After further consideration, Ren's right. There's no way a straight DPS build can outkill a Jellybean build for elite mobs such as those in Madstone Crater (editor's note: duh). However, Jellybean's build won't do near as well against high DR foes such as the Stormreaver." Otherwise, he can stand by his challenge, go to Risia and get humiliated. In light of those two options, maybe we shouldn't be wondering why he is on the lam.

Fallout
09-05-2007, 10:27 AM
And for those that knock his build by saying it's gear dependant, your wrong. There has been an influx of guys building similair builds using high + Burst of puncturing rapier's...And they do very well also, not aswell as Ren does...But they can still come close to an SoS barb if they have some skill.

They need to do a run that does not use W/P weapons. Using weapons that a vast majority that does not have access too isn't much of a test. What if the devs decide puncturing is overpowered and make it a natural roll of 20 instead? That build suddenly dropped off in power dramatically.

Barb's crit range makes alot of builds interesting, but this particular contest is gear dependent. To say its not its silly. Two rapiers of W/P. hmmm. Let me think about it...

Don't get me wrong, seeing interesting builds and comparisons is fun. But this comparison favors certain conditions.

Renegade66
09-05-2007, 10:58 AM
They need to do a run that does not use W/P weapons. Using weapons that a vast majority that does not have access too isn't much of a test. What if the devs decide puncturing is overpowered and make it a natural roll of 20 instead? That build suddenly dropped off in power dramatically.

Barb's crit range makes alot of builds interesting, but this particular contest is gear dependent. To say its not its silly. Two rapiers of W/P. hmmm. Let me think about it...

Don't get me wrong, seeing interesting builds and comparisons is fun. But this comparison favors certain conditions.

No one is argueing your point but I think you're missing ours. If you like the build, make it with easy to acquire puncturing rapiers (not wounding of puncturing).

If whatshisname ever crawls out from under his rock, it might be nice to do two comparisons.
1) proving that he's wrong in that he cannot keep up with twin w/p (obvious)
2) seeing what happens when going against two regular puncturing rapiers w/ no wounding

Test 1 will be a blowout. Test 2 will be closer, but I would wager the guy with the regular puncturing rapiers would hold his own if not defeat a guy with the huge DPS axe build.

Again, I'd be happy to participate in both tests.

Maldini
09-05-2007, 11:39 AM
Ren's build is more efficient heal wise because he kills so damn quick. If everything is dead before it touches you, then why do you need to heal? :) Though in our challenge his Barb's did die a couple of times. Blutus took a bunch more dmg than Jelly though because he wasn't able to kill as fast.



Any DPS barb can kill quick. That's our job.

Maldini
09-05-2007, 11:42 AM
To Maldini:
Not trying to pick a fight with you but are you Shade's Momma? I have no idea why he's trying to say an axe barb can kill faster than dual w/p rapiers, but he is. Plus, he laid out the challenge . . . "I routinely outkill people fighting with w/p, etc.". So be it. I took him up on it and he ran like a scared school girl. He doesn't have us all squelched and he has posted on other threads, plus now he has a PM from DaveyCrockett. He knows what's up and should be fighting his own battles.
I'm going to make this easy and tell him what he should do. He should come back and say, "After further consideration, Ren's right. There's no way a straight DPS build can outkill a Jellybean build for elite mobs such as those in Madstone Crater (editor's note: duh). However, Jellybean's build won't do near as well against high DR foes such as the Stormreaver." Otherwise, he can stand by his challenge, go to Risia and get humiliated. In light of those two options, maybe we shouldn't be wondering why he is on the lam.

Even with those weapons, you're giving yourself too much credit. You won't annihilate him in kill counts. Even if you were slightly ahead or slightly behind it doesn't matter because stat draining weapons aren't a measure of DPS. If I wanted to use those, I would have created a Ranger. Plus they're useless against stat-draining immune mobs.

And for the record, I'm not his momma, I'm his dirty, drunk aunt.

If you were a little more pleasant and respectful in your posts, you might have gotten a better response.

Fallout
09-05-2007, 11:52 AM
No one is argueing your point but I think you're missing ours. If you like the build, make it with easy to acquire puncturing rapiers (not wounding of puncturing).

If whatshisname ever crawls out from under his rock, it might be nice to do two comparisons.
1) proving that he's wrong in that he cannot keep up with twin w/p (obvious)
2) seeing what happens when going against two regular puncturing rapiers w/ no wounding

Test 1 will be a blowout. Test 2 will be closer, but I would wager the guy with the regular puncturing rapiers would hold his own if not defeat a guy with the huge DPS axe build.

Again, I'd be happy to participate in both tests.

Since they gave us so many shards maybe I'll drop stunning blow and get improve pierce crit for the hell of it on my barb and get piercing weapons just for fun. I don't have W/P but I do have plain punc weapons.

Renegade66
09-05-2007, 03:45 PM
Even with those weapons, you're giving yourself too much credit. You won't annihilate him in kill counts. Even if you were slightly ahead or slightly behind it doesn't matter because stat draining weapons aren't a measure of DPS. If I wanted to use those, I would have created a Ranger. Plus they're useless against stat-draining immune mobs.

And for the record, I'm not his momma, I'm his dirty, drunk aunt.

If you were a little more pleasant and respectful in your posts, you might have gotten a better response.

1) I will indeed annihilate him in kill count and will take your plat if you want in on it.
2) I never said stat draining weapons were a measure of DPS. That's been my entire point from the start. Being a barbarian doesn't mean following a generic cookie cutter Maldini/Shade/Blutus approach. You can even do better and it doesn't take huge DPS (although you can dish out plenty).
3) A dual wielding w/p rapier Ranger is not as good as a Barbarian version. Your choice to build a ranger wouldn't be a complete waste of time, but would be 2nd class.
4) There are few stat-draining immune mobs. Especially ones that aren't affected by twin smiters, banishers or disruptors. Red bosses are immune, but then you simply go DPS. Twin rapiers with a 45 str can dish out plenty.
5) You may only be his dirty, drunk aunt, but you've been acting like his momma. He shouldn't need to be defended by you. He should back up his words himself.
6) Pleasant and respectful? Sorry, I'm from Xoriat, not the land of the care-bears. You guys just don't like having anyone rain on your barbarian parade and questioning your self proclaimed barbarian uberness. I had no problem with him talking smack. It was all in good fun. I also appreciated his challenge and took him up on it. His fleeing like Tokyo school girls from Godzilla made him look like a punk. You defending him makes you seem like a doting mother who doesn't realize her son's a punk.

Renegade66
09-05-2007, 03:46 PM
Since they gave us so many shards maybe I'll drop stunning blow and get improve pierce crit for the hell of it on my barb and get piercing weapons just for fun. I don't have W/P but I do have plain punc weapons.

I wouldn't recommend it unless you had all the TWF feats as well.

BlackPantha
09-05-2007, 07:21 PM
who really cares, casters outkill any dps or con damage build. And it only gets worse, By the time level 18 hits casters will destroy entire rooms with one spell. The life of the melee is over, you are not needed, go back to your watering holes and curl up in a ball and die.

-- Your friendly neighborhood caster

HorridForm
09-05-2007, 08:28 PM
To Renegade:

I just wanted to throw out that Rangers are superior to Barbs in all respects. They are the most solo friendly class in the game. Truth is that if we were to do madstone Elite I would run all the mobs around in circles, let them swarm you, and after you died I would just keep killing mobs until I got tired or lost footing.

Now if you had a healer and mage buffing and supporting you then I am pretty confident you would out kill me, but then again thats like have 2 mini helpers to assist your build.

So everyone who reads this thread you should just build Rangers instead of Barbs. If everyone played/mastered Rangers there would be no need for any other class. :)

Oh and the only purpose of a w/p bow is to kite mobs from 3-4+ different packs and then kill them all in 20 seconds. I would never expect a w/p bow to out kill a duel wielding w/p Rapier Barb.

Anyhow its clear that I misunderstood the wager. My comments probably belong in a whole nother thread sorry for interrupting.

sigtrent
09-05-2007, 09:40 PM
Lol, it all depends on what you want to brag about I guess.

W/P weapons are amazing, and part of what lets Jelleybean outpace other 45str characters is the stat damage. the bigger the monster, the harder that con chips at its HP. Against an un-crittable opponent, Jellybean probably goes with a two hander because its likely to do more damage over time. (I think I read you use a SOS sometimes.) You do use those weapons for a reason.

My wizard happens to have one, no improved crit yet but none the less I have gotten kill count "wins" in gianthold quests along side barbarians and sorcerers by combination of throwing FOD and stabbing everything I can get my rapier on. Its a very strong weapon and in the hands of a Str based killing machine like a 14 barbarian it only gets worse.. and two of them.. I can only imagine!

I guess what I'd say is there isn't anything too unusual about Jelleybean. Not a lot of folks can claim to have two W/P rapiers. Then again anyone could build a Rapier based TWF Barbarian (although not everyone would think to do so, so props to Renegade666 for going that route). Its the combination of super killer weapons and a strong combat build.

Take a pure fighter, and the pure barb and give them +5 weapons of thier choice and the gap won't be so huge. Play skill and strategy are going to come into play there. Renegade666 may well still have an edge there. Those Legion fellows play the game hard and fast.

But I'm not sure that would tell us that barbarians on their face are better than similarly equiped fighters.

The challenges are cool though and many thanks for posting the results! Its cool to see when the metal meets the road, what happens. Since Renegade is on my server I'll have to try and weazel my way into one of his groups some time to watch his character in action. I've no doubt he would out kill any of my characters.

Truth is though, most folks that play the game don't have especialy amazing builds. My characters are far from min max monsters and I tend to lead kill counts in most of the groups I play in. But I play in a casual guild and/or pug. When I occasion to group with raiding guilds the tables turn on me and I'll by the time I figure out where everyone has gone, everything is likely already dead.

Clay
09-05-2007, 10:15 PM
I just wanted to throw out that Rangers are superior to Barbs in all respects.

in ALL respects? uh huh. right.


They are the most solo friendly class in the game.

THIS statement is a completely different idea from the first.


Now if you had a healer and mage buffing and supporting you then I am pretty confident you would out kill me, but then again thats like have 2 mini helpers to assist your build.

And you receive no benefit from mobs being webbed, from being hasted, stoneskinned, raged, blurred, healed?


So everyone who reads this thread you should just build Rangers instead of Barbs. If everyone played/mastered Rangers there would be no need for any other class. :)

Yeah. You and a FOD/PK Sorc run thru the hallway from bottom to top in PotP... You think you'll kill more, faster?.


sorry for interrupting.

np

Maldini
09-05-2007, 11:09 PM
Paladins or Clerics are the most solo friendly class. Paladins have the Lay on Hands in case of emergency and better AC since they can drink Barkskin potions.

Maldini
09-05-2007, 11:10 PM
who really cares, casters outkill any dps or con damage build. And it only gets worse, By the time level 18 hits casters will destroy entire rooms with one spell. The life of the melee is over, you are not needed, go back to your watering holes and curl up in a ball and die.

-- Your friendly neighborhood caster


Only true when the melee'ers are keeping aggro off of the casters. Casters can end up over their head if they're not careful.

Maldini
09-05-2007, 11:13 PM
1) I will indeed annihilate him in kill count and will take your plat if you want in on it.
2) I never said stat draining weapons were a measure of DPS. That's been my entire point from the start. Being a barbarian doesn't mean following a generic cookie cutter Maldini/Shade/Blutus approach. You can even do better and it doesn't take huge DPS (although you can dish out plenty).
3) A dual wielding w/p rapier Ranger is not as good as a Barbarian version. Your choice to build a ranger wouldn't be a complete waste of time, but would be 2nd class.
4) There are few stat-draining immune mobs. Especially ones that aren't affected by twin smiters, banishers or disruptors. Red bosses are immune, but then you simply go DPS. Twin rapiers with a 45 str can dish out plenty.
5) You may only be his dirty, drunk aunt, but you've been acting like his momma. He shouldn't need to be defended by you. He should back up his words himself.
6) Pleasant and respectful? Sorry, I'm from Xoriat, not the land of the care-bears. You guys just don't like having anyone rain on your barbarian parade and questioning your self proclaimed barbarian uberness. I had no problem with him talking smack. It was all in good fun. I also appreciated his challenge and took him up on it. His fleeing like Tokyo school girls from Godzilla made him look like a punk. You defending him makes you seem like a doting mother who doesn't realize her son's a punk.

Pretty much any real offensive barb is based off of a DPS model figured out a long time ago by people who first played D&D. You max out strength and Con. If you want to go TWF then you boost up Dex. There's nothing special about your build really. It is too a variation off of a DPS build.

And you have a serious chip on your shoulder. I never claimed to be uber. You assumed it. The only person with an attitude and a problem in this thread is you, not Shade.

You have something to prove which was made clear in this thread. That means that you have issues that you need to deal with. Life's too short to take a video game this seriously. You need to go outside more and enjoy the sunshine.

Also for pure DPS, twin Heavy Bursting Picks is better than Rapiers, especially Axiomatic Burst of Maiming or any other Bursting of Maiming due to the x4 critical.

scribble
09-06-2007, 12:51 AM
Hello,
It may be off the subject abit but, on your build Ren - where it says that twf needs 17dex (base/inherent only) - does that mean that if I had 16base dex , and then elven dex enhancement to make a total of 17dex, that the requirements for the remaining twf feats wouldn't be met.(just wondering if that would work to get me by until I could afford or loot a +1 dex tome.)

Appreciate the info

Maldini
09-06-2007, 12:59 AM
Hello,
It may be off the subject abit but, on your build Ren - where it says that twf needs 17dex (base/inherent only) - does that mean that if I had 16base dex , and then elven dex enhancement to make a total of 17dex, that the requirements for the remaining twf feats wouldn't be met.(just wondering if that would work to get me by until I could afford or loot a +1 dex tome.)

Appreciate the info

It needs to be BASE dex. Which means what you start with + points put in at levels 4, 8 or 12 OR Tomes. Enhancements or items will not let you meet the requirements.

scribble
09-06-2007, 01:04 AM
Thx Mald , appreciate the info =)

geezee
09-06-2007, 02:15 AM
In other words, you need a DEX tome like everyone else...

DaveyCrockett
09-06-2007, 02:59 AM
CON = 14 base + 2 inherent + 2 Feat + 6 enchant = 24

What feat gives you +2 CON? :p

spifflove
09-06-2007, 07:58 AM
Pretty much any real offensive barb is based off of a DPS model figured out a long time ago by people who first played D&D. You max out strength and Con. If you want to go TWF then you boost up Dex. There's nothing special about your build really. It is too a variation off of a DPS build.

And you have a serious chip on your shoulder. I never claimed to be uber. You assumed it. The only person with an attitude and a problem in this thread is you, not Shade.

You have something to prove which was made clear in this thread. That means that you have issues that you need to deal with. Life's too short to take a video game this seriously. You need to go outside more and enjoy the sunshine.

Also for pure DPS, twin Heavy Bursting Picks is better than Rapiers, especially Axiomatic Burst of Maiming or any other Bursting of Maiming due to the x4 critical.

Why? What would be more entertaining than doing this challenge? Runny PoP a gazzillanth time?

Maybe Maldini will accept the challenge in Shade's place.

Mad_Bombardier
09-06-2007, 09:40 AM
What feat gives you +2 CON? :pEnhancements are listed as Feat Bonus in the Attribute mouseover. So, that +2 is more than likely Barb CON II.

tihocan
09-06-2007, 09:58 AM
especially Axiomatic Burst of Maiming or any other Bursting of Maiming due to the x4 critical.
Sorry for derailing, but maiming is not such a great suffix. Pure good is usually better.
Do the maths: 4d6 on a 17-20 crit means you do 16d6 damage over 20 rolls (assuming confirming is not an issue).
On another hand, pure good will also do 16d6 if you can hit on a 5, which is usually the case, and will improve with a higher to-hit.
In addition, regular damage is usually better than burst damage, because there is less risk to "lose" it on a killing blow.
So maiming is only good against a high AC opponent IF you have some additional bonus to your confirmation rolls. Maiming is also better for auto-crits situations. But in the "average" usage, pure good is better.

tihocan
09-06-2007, 10:04 AM
Swim is very nice. I took another look at what I could have taken based on the criticism and I have no regrets. None of the other choices made a whole lot of sense and at times it's pretty nice having a huge swim score.
Where is it nice to have high swim? In Crucible? It's not like you really need it. Get the bubble belt from Co6 and you have +10 swim with underwater action. No real need for anything else.
On another hand, intimidate can be very useful to pull aggro from other party members (casters/clerics), and avoid chasing mob around. With the upcoming change to spot/listen, I think listen would be a great choice. Both seem vastly superior to swim, IMHO.

Renegade66
09-06-2007, 10:08 AM
What feat gives you +2 CON? :p

Enhancements show up under the Feat listing. In my case, Barbarian Constitution II.

Renegade66
09-06-2007, 10:11 AM
In other words, you need a DEX tome like everyone else...

Using a Dex tome to get to 17 allows you to spend base build points on 18 STR and 14 CON. Dex tomes are easy to find, buy or trade for. I have extra to trade you if you decide to run with this build.

Renegade66
09-06-2007, 10:14 AM
To Renegade:

I just wanted to throw out that Rangers are superior to Barbs in all respects. They are the most solo friendly class in the game. Truth is that if we were to do madstone Elite I would run all the mobs around in circles, let them swarm you, and after you died I would just keep killing mobs until I got tired or lost footing.

IMO rangers are gimped versus good fighters and barbarians in terms of dual wielding just because of the crit range and the haste boost enhancements.

Renegade66
09-06-2007, 10:27 AM
Against an un-crittable opponent, Jellybean probably goes with a two hander because its likely to do more damage over time. (I think I read you use a SOS sometimes.) You do use those weapons for a reason.


I have a DPS Barbarian named Blutus that uses the SoS. Jellybean doesn't use one.
Against red bosses:
Demon Queen: +4 icy burst cold iron rapier of pure good and a +3 version of the same
Titan: Twin Adoryn's Malices (+2 Adamantine light maces of Greater Construct Bane)
Stormreaver: +3 Transmuting rapiers of maiming or maybe anarchic burst versions.
Just a few examples. Jelly does very well vs DQ and Titan, but not near as well as Blutus vs the Reaver.



I guess what I'd say is there isn't anything too unusual about Jelleybean.

Right-on. I've only ever wanted to introduce Jellybean as an alternate build to a generic THF barbarian. Nothing special in the build. Easy to equip with puncturing rapiers or w/p short swords and daggers and will keep up or surpass the best DPS fighters and barbarians in the game. Ultimately, with the right gear, you can be the most powerful killing machine in the game with no other build coming close (with the exception of someone else wielding dual w/p rapiers).



Since Renegade is on my server I'll have to try and weazel my way into one of his groups some time to watch his character in action.

I'd be happy to join your group. Keep an eye for my alts (sort by guild).



Renegade666

OMG, I love this. I wonder if I can add a 6 to my forum name.

Renegade66
09-06-2007, 10:45 AM
Pretty much any real offensive barb is based off of a DPS model figured out a long time ago by people who first played D&D. You max out strength and Con. If you want to go TWF then you boost up Dex.

I guess here's where the difference lies. If you want to go TWF the you DO NOT boost up Dex. You effectively use the same DPS build with the exception of 16 starting dex for greater TWF (w/ tome). Your huge STR will out-do even a 36 Dex ranger or equivalent fighter, plus you far surpass the dex based fighter with regard to STR dmg.


There's nothing special about your build really. It is too a variation off of a DPS build..

Exactly! My point all along. The talk has always been around high DPS SoS or dwarven axe build. Jellybean is a straightforward alternative that I feel surpasses both even with readily available weapons and certainly with uber gear.


And you have a serious chip on your shoulder. I never claimed to be uber. You assumed it. The only person with an attitude and a problem in this thread is you, not Shade.

I don't think I said that Shade had an attitude. I simply disagreed with his statement that he could routinely outkill my build and I took him up on his challenge. Then I went on to comment on his suspicious disappearance as did others. I thought it was pretty funny. My attitude comes from him making idiotic claims of superiority when it's obvious the gear dictates otherwise. I also teased you for sticking up for him. Guess you're a bit thin skinned. Good thing you're not in the new Xoriat.



You have something to prove which was made clear in this thread. That means that you have issues that you need to deal with. Life's too short to take a video game this seriously. You need to go outside more and enjoy the sunshine.

This isn't about the game. It's about stirring up trouble on the boards to help the work day go more quickly. It's about having fun. Thanks though for your diagnosis doctor. I think now I'll be able to crawl out of my mom's basement and enjoy life as God meant it to be.



Also for pure DPS, twin Heavy Bursting Picks is better than Rapiers, especially Axiomatic Burst of Maiming or any other Bursting of Maiming due to the x4 critical.

Ok, so what's your point? Mine would be; a) consider using twin bursting picks over a Maldini/Shade/Blutus build, and b) dual wielding w/p rapiers will far surpass the kill potential of twin bursting picks (and all others for that matter).

Renegade66
09-06-2007, 10:48 AM
Maybe Maldini will accept the challenge in Shade's place.

I wouldn't hold your breath. Maldini is smarter than Shade. Plus, I already know the result. I'd really like to see Ilundel's fighter abuse the DPS THF Barbarian build of either of these guys.

Renegade66
09-06-2007, 10:49 AM
Where is it nice to have high swim? In Crucible? It's not like you really need it. Get the bubble belt from Co6 and you have +10 swim with underwater action. No real need for anything else.
On another hand, intimidate can be very useful to pull aggro from other party members (casters/clerics), and avoid chasing mob around. With the upcoming change to spot/listen, I think listen would be a great choice. Both seem vastly superior to swim, IMHO.

Intimidate would have been a better choice for sure. Too bad they don't allow you to respec skill points.

Maldini
09-06-2007, 11:41 AM
Sorry for derailing, but maiming is not such a great suffix. Pure good is usually better.
Do the maths: 4d6 on a 17-20 crit means you do 16d6 damage over 20 rolls (assuming confirming is not an issue).
On another hand, pure good will also do 16d6 if you can hit on a 5, which is usually the case, and will improve with a higher to-hit.
In addition, regular damage is usually better than burst damage, because there is less risk to "lose" it on a killing blow.
So maiming is only good against a high AC opponent IF you have some additional bonus to your confirmation rolls. Maiming is also better for auto-crits situations. But in the "average" usage, pure good is better.

Pure Good is nice, but 3d6 on a Crit isn't bad either. I'm talking about getting those big crit numbers and 10d6 on a crit is good for extra damage, especially when your main attack is doing 130 - 140.

Maldini
09-06-2007, 11:43 AM
Where is it nice to have high swim? In Crucible? It's not like you really need it. Get the bubble belt from Co6 and you have +10 swim with underwater action. No real need for anything else.
On another hand, intimidate can be very useful to pull aggro from other party members (casters/clerics), and avoid chasing mob around. With the upcoming change to spot/listen, I think listen would be a great choice. Both seem vastly superior to swim, IMHO.


There's nothing wrong with having a good swim. You can put points into Jump, Listen and Swim with no problem. Intimidate is something you don't want on a barb because it just gets you more and more aggro. Casters have crowd control abilities to get aggro off them, we don't. I wouldn't put points into Intimidate.

DaveyCrockett
09-06-2007, 11:45 AM
Enhancements are listed as Feat Bonus in the Attribute mouseover. So, that +2 is more than likely Barb CON II.

Well I knew what the hell it was.. lol.. I was busting balls because no matter what it is listed as, it's not a feat, it's an enhancement.

Maldini
09-06-2007, 11:45 AM
I wouldn't hold your breath. Maldini is smarter than Shade. Plus, I already know the result. I'd really like to see Ilundel's fighter abuse the DPS THF Barbarian build of either of these guys.


Actually I would accept it, but I'm at a school that blocks ports to online gaming and almost everything else that uses the internet, so I don't play while I'm here.

You'll just have to stroke your ego a little longer.

And trust me, you're not that good.

Maldini
09-06-2007, 11:52 AM
I guess here's where the difference lies. If you want to go TWF the you DO NOT boost up Dex. You effectively use the same DPS build with the exception of 16 starting dex for greater TWF (w/ tome). Your huge STR will out-do even a 36 Dex ranger or equivalent fighter, plus you far surpass the dex based fighter with regard to STR dmg.


You do boost up Dex. You started with 16 Dex. I wouldn't do that on mine, I would go 18 14 16 on a human, where on this I would go 18 16 14.



Exactly! My point all along. The talk has always been around high DPS SoS or dwarven axe build. Jellybean is a straightforward alternative that I feel surpasses both even with readily available weapons and certainly with uber gear.


You don't surpass anything. There is nothing that this build has that a two-handed build doesn't. There is nothing special about dual-wielding wounding of puncturing weapons. Rangers and TWF Fighters have been doing that since game launch. Again you give yourself too much credit.



I don't think I said that Shade had an attitude. I simply disagreed with his statement that he could routinely outkill my build and I took him up on his challenge. Then I went on to comment on his suspicious disappearance as did others. I thought it was pretty funny. My attitude comes from him making idiotic claims of superiority when it's obvious the gear dictates otherwise. I also teased you for sticking up for him. Guess you're a bit thin skinned. Good thing you're not in the new Xoriat.


I'm far from thin-skinned, I've made cockier people than you run away on these forums.



This isn't about the game. It's about stirring up trouble on the boards to help the work day go more quickly. It's about having fun. Thanks though for your diagnosis doctor. I think now I'll be able to crawl out of my mom's basement and enjoy life as God meant it to be.


Maybe that's your problem. Get a better job that fulfills your life better. Nothing's funnier than people who sit on the boards for hours at a time while at work. I'm glad their working hard. If only HR tracked websites more regularly.



Ok, so what's your point? Mine would be; a) consider using twin bursting picks over a Maldini/Shade/Blutus build, and b) dual wielding w/p rapiers will far surpass the kill potential of twin bursting picks (and all others for that matter).

It's pure luck as anyone knows. I could be on a team of 3 barbs, and the kill counts would varry because it all depends on who gets the last hit in. Let's not overexaggerate your build here. If I get the last hit in, I get the kill. If you get the last hit in, you get the kill. Kill count is not an overall show of uber DPS or fancy weapon. It's luck plain and simple.

If we had a DPS tabulator, you would see the difference better in the DPS between the TWF and THF builds.

But let's see how much longer you can float your own boat in this thread.

Mad_Bombardier
09-06-2007, 12:12 PM
Well I knew what the hell it was.. lol.. I was busting balls because no matter what it is listed as, it's not a feat, it's an enhancement.I figured based on your smiley. But, he responded too, so go bust his balls!

Renegade66
09-06-2007, 12:24 PM
It's pure luck as anyone knows. I could be on a team of 3 barbs, and the kill counts would varry because it all depends on who gets the last hit in. Let's not overexaggerate your build here. If I get the last hit in, I get the kill. If you get the last hit in, you get the kill. Kill count is not an overall show of uber DPS or fancy weapon. It's luck plain and simple.

But let's see how much longer you can float your own boat in this thread.

I'll float it a bit longer to address the only point you made worth commenting on.

In general, when DPSing mobs to death there is much luck in who gets the last shot in. However, when wounding of puncturing they are dead while their health is relatively high, so there's little chance for THFers to steal kills with glancing blows.

End result is that I would definitely get the kill on the target I'm on. I would also have a decent chance of getting the last hit in on your target. In addition, TWF have better "luck" getting the last kill since they get more hits/second HPS.

One final shot. I really enjoyed your "I'd take you up on the challenge but my PC's in the shop" excuse. If you're in school, shouldn't you be studying? I've finished my education (Ph.D.) and have advanced in my career (Director) to a point where I can choose to spend a bit of time trolling the boards. It's good to be boss, but I never would have gotten here if I slacked off in school as much as you apparently do. :D

Isn't it about time for one of you to put up or shut up?

Strakeln
09-06-2007, 12:40 PM
For those of us at work, this thread delivers. :D

Maldini
09-06-2007, 01:56 PM
I'll float it a bit longer to address the only point you made worth commenting on.

In general, when DPSing mobs to death there is much luck in who gets the last shot in. However, when wounding of puncturing they are dead while their health is relatively high, so there's little chance for THFers to steal kills with glancing blows.

If they're swinging on the same mob, then they could get over a 200 point crit + special effects, which would take the kill. If they're not, then they helped you kill the mob with all the glancing blows that they did on them. If it's not a crit, it's 50 - 60 point main damage + special effects, which could mean dead mob too before you get the last wounding hit in. It's all luck.



End result is that I would definitely get the kill on the target I'm on. I would also have a decent chance of getting the last hit in on your target. In addition, TWF have better "luck" getting the last kill since they get more hits/second HPS.

No, you assume that you'd get the kill. Get in a 12 man raid group with a lot of DPS melee'ers and let's see how many kills you get. That further proves it's all about luck. When there's more than one weapon hitting a mob, it's pure chance and timing to see who gets the kill. That's why kill counts are not THAT accurate.

As far as faster goes, the THF makes up for the attacks in AoE damage, and depending on how many mobs are around, you could easily do 100 - 200 point of damage in splash damage alone. It starts adding up and helps out the entire party by helping to maintain aggro.



One final shot. I really enjoyed your "I'd take you up on the challenge but my PC's in the shop" excuse. If you're in school, shouldn't you be studying? I've finished my education (Ph.D.) and have advanced in my career (Director) to a point where I can choose to spend a bit of time trolling the boards. It's good to be boss, but I never would have gotten here if I slacked off in school as much as you apparently do. :D

Isn't it about time for one of you to put up or shut up?

I do study. This is my down time. I'm in Medical School and I'm at the top of my class. Any more nonsense comments? Even if I could play regularly, I wouldn't. What did you get your Ph.D. in? Jerkoffology? Your company would be better off with you being more productive than trolling forums.

Maldini
09-06-2007, 02:05 PM
On top of everything, Wounding of Puncturing is a very effective way of killing things. People have been doing it for a long, long time in this game. It's nothing new.

A DPS THF Barb could easily switching to double Wounding of Puncturing Heavy Picks and dish out mash damage. But some people, including myself like to use Greataxes and get huge crit numbers, taking down mobs very quickly in the process.

Maybe some day they'll give us two-handed piercing weapons, and which point, I'd gladly use a Wounding of Puncturing on a regular basis. Until that day comes though, I'll stick to my GA's.

And why would I use Wounding of Puncturing Heavy Picks over a Rapier and Shortsword? For the same reason I use Greataxes over Falchions...i.e. for the big crit numbers.

Sydril
09-06-2007, 03:35 PM
I think this thread jumped the shark back when Shade ran off. I've lost interest.

Renegade66
09-06-2007, 04:30 PM
I think this thread jumped the shark back when Shade ran off. I've lost interest.

You're right. Sure, I could brag on myself some more and say that I "mastered" Jerkoffology by the age of 15. I could also continue to debate his misguided opinions. But, what's the point?

As I said, it's time to put up or shut-up.

I . . . put up
Shade . . . shut-up
Maldini . . . ???

Beherit_Baphomar
09-06-2007, 04:37 PM
Y'know, I like Shade.

Cocky lil fella....I like him...but if Davey PM'd him and he's not come back to this thread...dot dot dot

Wouldnt a better challenge than both of ya running in the same instance be running in seperate instances? Say Madstone again, with a cleric and caster/bard each...and give a time limit. Ten minutes and see who has the higher killcount. That way one isnt "stealing" kills from the other. Oh I know, with killcounts that far apart its pretty obvious who was doing what, just seems seperate instances would show it all much clearer.

Also, to address what upset "the other guy" (lol, sorry "other guy"); I was along side other people thinking what the eff is this guy doing pulling a vorpal in a killcount contest?!!?? But after actually reading yer posts, it makes sense to me. Even with a +20 Ubah Greataxesword of Shadows of Pure Good Righteousness Smiting Banisher you werent gonna outkill Ren with DPS, so you went with the "hope & a prayer" vorpal to try and get some kills. I got ya bro...dont mind the other fowk....

Strakeln
09-06-2007, 05:04 PM
But after actually reading yer posts, it makes sense to me. Even with a +20 Ubah Greataxesword of Shadows of Pure Good Righteousness Smiting Banisher you werent gonna outkill Ren with DPS, so you went with the "hope & a prayer" vorpal to try and get some kills. I got ya bro...dont mind the other fowk....I get his logic, I just consider it to be horribly flawed. If you wanted to get some kills, you'd be better off just waiting for Jellybean to get a couple of whacks in, then snipe with your +20 Ubah Greataxesword of Shadows of Pure Good Righteousness Smiting Banisher. Some back-of-envelope Fermi math to illustrate what I mean:

Vorpal kills: 4.75% (5% - 0.25% for failed confirms)
Whomping Stick kills: after Jellybean has hit the mob a couple of times, should be < 100HP left. On the SoS, you'll have a 24.75% chance of getting that crit, more if you're a raging barb.

(need to add some percentage to vorpals for the chance that a non-vorp strike does enough damage to kill... say an additional 5%? So in this case we're looking at ~10% chance of getting the kill vs ~25% chance of getting the kill)

Naturally, there are a bajillion other factors to consider, and these numbers are far from accurate. But looking at the significant difference in magnitude here suggests that even exact numbers would show a similar trend.

The only good the vorpal would do is if the "other person" had NO kills, and didn't want to have to admit to a total and complete rout. You can expect at least a couple of kills when using a vorp.

Jaysensen
09-06-2007, 06:56 PM
Since they gave us so many shards maybe I'll drop stunning blow and get improve pierce crit for the hell of it on my barb and get piercing weapons just for fun. I don't have W/P but I do have plain punc weapons.

Ill loan Fallout some of mine. I cant use all of them at once anyway.

spifflove
09-06-2007, 07:14 PM
Ive slacked off more than everyone on these forums and I still make 6 figures. /shrug. Ive mastered ...offology more than anyone on these forums easily but I have gotten laid more than anyone on these forums, possible combined. /shrug.

Good luck in Medical School Maldini, probably suffering alot less than I did but don't get too cocky. All it takes is once.

Maldini
09-06-2007, 08:37 PM
Ive slacked off more than everyone on these forums and I still make 6 figures. /shrug. Ive mastered ...offology more than anyone on these forums easily but I have gotten laid more than anyone on these forums, possible combined. /shrug.

Good luck in Medical School Maldini, probably suffering alot less than I did but don't get too cocky. All it takes is once.


I'm not sure about that getting laid part ;)

Eudimio
09-07-2007, 12:20 AM
Hey guys,

The reason intelligent people have disagreements about statistics/mathematics is that they are often debating two slightly-different things. It's my opinion that Maldini and Renegade are there.

Since Renegade originated this thread, I'll evaluate his point first. His point is simple: Mobs die faster with constitution damage than with hitpoint damage.

Everyone has noticed that mobs have inflated hitpoints. People that use con damage weapons know that mob constitution (along with strength and dexterity) are NOT inflated. The toughest (unnamed) mobs in the game might only have around a 20 constitution, and I'll use that number for the rest of this discussion. We'll also say that the mob has 20 hit die and 600 hitpoints. Now, a level 20 fighter with 20 constitution should have 300 hitpoints. So that mob would have a 50 constitution if they only got thier hitpoints from constitution and levels to get to 600. That discrepancy is why con damage is more effective. On Madstone elite, I'm guessing that that discrepancy is even larger.

Now let's talk about the Jellybean build. Without a doubt, it is by far the best con damage build in the game. I tip my hat to you. This also makes it the best smiting and banishing build with the right weapons. A wounding puncturing rapier is the best con damage weapon. Two of them give you 7 attacks (and the most swings/second barring haste boost). Elf is the best race for using rapiers. Barbarian is the best class for getting critical hits. You're batting 1.000.

Okay, for Maldini's point I'll use the following stats. A barbarian weilding a greataxe dealing 200 point criticals, 80 point non-criticals, and 30 point glancing blows every-other swing (I hope those are fair numbers). So I ask this question at what constitution/hitpoint ratio do those build achieve parity? Using 20 con and 600 hitpoints, the greataxe barb needs to score an average of 5 hits to kill it (actually slightly more than 5, but it's close). Jellybean would need an average of 8 hits to lower its con to zero (again slightly more). Funny enough, it would take one full attack sequence of hits plus one more hit for each of them. My guess is that most mobs in Madstone elite have a larger constitution/hitpoint descrepancy than I listed. But that is VERY easy to test and confirm.

And here's my math:

I'm only counting hits here, a good barbarian is only missing on a "1" anyway.

Jellybean: 1 point con damage per hit plus 3.5 con damge per crit 40% of the time = 2.4 points of con damage per hit

Greataxe Barb: 80 hitpoints damage per hit plus 120 hitpoints per crit 20% of the time + 30 hitpoints of glancing blows 50% of the time = 119 hitpoints of damage per hit.

So Renegade, if you want to move this discussion into just the raw numbers, could you get a madstone elite group together to hammer down those constitution and hitpoint numbers? It seems that you wouldn't have much trouble getting it together. I would suggest isolating a mob and killing it by con damage. If you just use wounding, you can get accurate con numbers on the first try. It will be harder getting exact hitpoint numbers. Again, it would be helpful switching to a very-low dps weapon when the mob's hitpoints are low. Then you just have to make sure none other party members damage your mob.

Anyone else can test this too. Just make sure you get the mob name, CR, constitution, and hitpoints.

Happy Hunting.

DaveyCrockett
09-07-2007, 01:11 AM
Ive slacked off more than everyone on these forums and I still make 6 figures. /shrug. Ive mastered ...offology more than anyone on these forums easily but I have gotten laid more than anyone on these forums, possible combined. /shrug.

Good luck in Medical School Maldini, probably suffering alot less than I did but don't get too cocky. All it takes is once.

I'm guessing you're a Catholic Priest? :D

spifflove
09-07-2007, 01:41 AM
I'm not sure about that getting laid part ;)

Im just going by the recent survey that said the average American male sleeps with 7 females in his lifetime. So ya if you count everyone on this post Ive slept with more than all combined unless one of u is Michael Jordan or something.

spifflove
09-07-2007, 01:45 AM
I'm guessing you're a Catholic Priest? :D

Good one

Strakeln
09-07-2007, 01:47 AM
Im just going by the recent survey that said the average American male sleeps with 7 females in his lifetime. So ya if you count everyone on this post Ive slept with more than all combined unless one of u is Michael Jordan or something.Tucker Max?

LastNameRage
09-07-2007, 02:01 AM
Im just going by the recent survey that said the average American male sleeps with 7 females in his lifetime. So ya if you count everyone on this post Ive slept with more than all combined unless one of u is Michael Jordan or something.


Thank god I am Canadian, you guys are pansies.

As for the debate, I am gonna have to agree with Ren again here...Put up or shut up, he said he will do it without a wounding effect on his rapier to make it easier for you guys, which is taking away from his own full effectiveness just so Shade or Mal will man up a bit. I'd suspect similair kill counts, assuming Shade is as Godly as he thinks and Mal is a beyond average player. Ren is a solid player and I am willing to bet Jellys beats anyone out there that's worthy of challenging Jelly when he has his full gear on.

And yes, I am Ren's mamma. (Tranny though)

Maldini
09-07-2007, 03:06 AM
Im just going by the recent survey that said the average American male sleeps with 7 females in his lifetime. So ya if you count everyone on this post Ive slept with more than all combined unless one of u is Michael Jordan or something.


Maybe I need to start lowering my standards and start sleeping with fat chicks to keep up with Spiff.

Maldini
09-07-2007, 03:07 AM
Im just going by the recent survey that said the average American male sleeps with 7 females in his lifetime. So ya if you count everyone on this post Ive slept with more than all combined unless one of u is Michael Jordan or something.


Thank god I am Canadian, you guys are pansies.

As for the debate, I am gonna have to agree with Ren again here...Put up or shut up, he said he will do it without a wounding effect on his rapier to make it easier for you guys, which is taking away from his own full effectiveness just so Shade or Mal will man up a bit. I'd suspect similair kill counts, assuming Shade is as Godly as he thinks and Mal is a beyond average player. Ren is a solid player and I am willing to bet Jellys beats anyone out there that's worthy of challenging Jelly when he has his full gear on.

And yes, I am Ren's mamma. (Tranny though)

Mal has nothing to do with this, since I won't be playing for at least 3 weeks. So don't include me in your peen-stroking contests because i'll splooge all over you guys.

spifflove
09-07-2007, 12:35 PM
Tucker Max?

Hey. I can neither confirm nor deny that allegation.

Beherit_Baphomar
09-07-2007, 12:51 PM
Maybe I need to start lowering my standards and start sleeping with fat chicks to keep up with Spiff.

Fat chicks need love too...send em my way.

spifflove
09-07-2007, 01:07 PM
Maybe I need to start lowering my standards and start sleeping with fat chicks to keep up with Spiff.

I wouldn't do that it will actually lower your overall score. Once word gets out that you are a whaler you won't have much fisherman's luck.

If you wanna do alittle whaling when no one is looking, however, then have at it.:cool:

Strakeln
09-07-2007, 02:00 PM
Fat chicks need love too...send em my way.Yeah, there's nothing wrong with an overweight girlfriend. They keep you warm in the winter, and in the summer you can sleep in the shade!

Strakeln
09-07-2007, 02:00 PM
Hey. I can neither confirm nor deny that allegation.Somebody knew what I was talking about!

Strumpoo
09-14-2007, 04:27 PM
I'll float it a bit longer to address the only point you made worth commenting on.

In general, when DPSing mobs to death there is much luck in who gets the last shot in. However, when wounding of puncturing they are dead while their health is relatively high, so there's little chance for THFers to steal kills with glancing blows.



Actually Ren, I would have to disagree with you here...

The DPS'r can still get the "last hit" in. After all, you are lowering their con, which in turn, lowers their hit points. If they get below that magic crit number (In remaining Hitpoints) the DPS barb can be one shot them for the "last swing".

I agree with one of the earlier posters that this test should definitely be done with some plain ol +5 weapons. Just to find out which build is better, the Two Hander, or the Two Weapon'r. In this case the gear wasn't nearly equal. You were using the equivilant of a machine gun, while the fighter was using a barely sharpened stick. :D Ok, maybe a stone club. :p

Not knocking you character, in fact I was thinking of building one of these types a while ago after playing around with my Ranger... I just like big bursting damage numbers too much..:) Glad to see they (dual wielding barbs) are as effective as I thought they would be.

I would like to see a Two handed Barb versus the Two weapon barb versus the Two Weapon Fighter versus the Two Handed Fighter.. I would like to see who come out on top for killing. I want to see them using equal weapons though...

I also agree with Shade, I have often outkilled the wounding/puncturing type with my barb. Now, these aren't dual wielding, crit raging barbs though, so they may destroy me in kills, but who knows...

Another interesting test would be to see what would happen if you took the THF vs TWF barbs/fighters into an undead quest, on elite, where disruptors don't come into play (at least not as much, or maybe just rule they can't be used).

I think we know where that comparision would end though. The numbers would be skewed in favor of the THF barb/fighter, and would probably look much like the numbers your competition showed, except reversed.

In this case, the DPS machine would have the advantage. Same as they would against the bosses in this game.

If I am worried about kill counts on my barb, which I usually don't care about, mind you... But every once in a while it is fun to compete. In these cases, I hate the "kill count", as it does come down to the last swing. I know darn well my (or someone else's) THF barb is doing most of the damage to most of the mobs but a lot of the kills can get sniped, by a quick hitting type.

If this game was about kill counts, and if you actually got something from having the highest kill count total. I would definitely be petitioning the devs for a "DAMAGE DEALT" category or something, as this would be a more accurate reflection on who was doing what.

Just a few things I figured I would chime in about. I think both builds can be fantastic..

Fallout
09-14-2007, 06:51 PM
Actually Ren, I would have to disagree with you here...

The DPS'r can still get the "last hit" in. After all, you are lowering their con, which in turn, lowers their hit points.



It does not look like its in proportion. Don't have hard numbers, but monsters are probably like human players. Have a base con, + Monster Vitality or something. Like 20 Con, but +300 HP Vitality. So you can knock the monster to very low con, but it still has lots of HP. Thats why W/P are sick since its not affected by over inflated HP.

Renegade66
09-15-2007, 07:27 AM
It does not look like its in proportion. Don't have hard numbers, but monsters are probably like human players. Have a base con, + Monster Vitality or something. Like 20 Con, but +300 HP Vitality. So you can knock the monster to very low con, but it still has lots of HP. Thats why W/P are sick since its not affected by over inflated HP.

Exactly.

skraus1
09-17-2007, 04:59 PM
Exactly.

Yeah, from my wounding ranger days, most beefy mobs have around 20 con. Giants and really mobs can have more up to around 30 I believe. Casters and archers have less.

A w/p rapier with jellybean's build averages 2.8 con a hit taken, so a normal fighting mob with a con of 20 would take around 7 hits....and he gets 7 a turn.

Invalid_86
09-25-2007, 06:14 PM
I'd have to agree with the others who noted that this was basically an equipment contest. Do it again using only vanilla +5 weapons and see what the numbers look like.

XFracture
09-25-2007, 11:20 PM
My observations in regards to the discussion.

I have both a TWF Barb and a TWF 3Pal/11Ftr. They both use pretty much the same gear. I merely mail the gear back and forth with a few exceptions. The difference between the two is basically this:

My Barb kills a bit faster and is USUALLY consistant on the kill counts. I know people say kill counts don't matter and what not and for the most part I agree with this. But I think everyone here worth any salt KNOWS when they're carrying the group in regards to kill count and when it's just a struggling match on who get's what.

When I compare the two this is basically what I see:

Barbarian +

- My fighter lacks in attack bonus by about +3 (WF and GWF offset the +10 str from rage) compared to my Barb but ONLY when the Barb is raging. Not counting attack boost.

- My Barb has a better crit range by 2. So my fighter crits a 1/4 of the time and my Barb crits roughly a 1/3 of the time. But only when he rages.

- My Barb has about 100+ more HP then my fighter does (when not raging).

Fighter +

- My Fighter has better saves. +6 better in each one.

- My Fighter has a better AC by about 9.

- My Fighter can use wands (heal, restore, blindness, disease etc.) and if he has to... rez.

- My Fighter get's 2x LoH which has saved my patutie on more than one occasion.

- My fighter has spring attack which negates that annoying -4 for attacking on the run. I'm a huge twitch player so for me this is a big thing.

- My fighter has precision which kinda knocks the +3 to hit the barb gets out of the equation. After all we're talking about stat dmg here.

-----------

I do not count base damage on either build as both are puncture builds BUT my Barb clearly out dmg's my Fighter when it does come down to DPS however only when raging.

So basically it boils down to raging. While my fighter is an all around good build and can handle multiple situations readily my barbarian is situational, no where near as self sufficient and in the puncture arena is only marginally better. It's that +2 crit range that get's it. While yes, if I pitt the two against one another, I think the Barb would win but not by a landslide. I think on average he would win in the kill counts but I'm not sure it's worth losing all the bonuses of the fighter.

HOWEVER if you look at the bigger picture, as levels begin to increase (and assuming patterns are equal) the Barb will continue to have his crit range increase by 1 maybe 2 AND he'll have tireless rage. I think that will bring alot more to the table. Unless something springs up for fighter in the 6 levels to come. Barring the possibility of Pretige Classes. Each have their pro's and con's but as it stands for RIGHT NOW I prefer my fighter TWF. He's just alot safer to play. = )

XFracture
09-25-2007, 11:37 PM
deleted

Fallout
09-26-2007, 12:03 AM
Each have their pro's and con's but as it stands for RIGHT NOW I prefer my fighter TWF. He's just alot safer to play. = )

Yah thats how I feel too. When fully buffed and raged, a TWF barb is powerful. But for overall consistant fighting, my TWF fighter is better.

XFracture
09-26-2007, 12:51 AM
Pretty much. My Barb has more HP and +2 crit range. That in my eyes just doesn't counterweigh all the upsides of my Ftr/Pal. But my barb is fun to play nonetheless.

Scalion
09-26-2007, 03:10 AM
I haven't read all 7 pages of replies but I've read bits and pieces here and there.

I have to say about the OP that it is just not accurate to compare a fully dps specced barb to a fighter sporting a sword and board and say that barb vs. fighter results are in. It would be more accurate to say that alligator vs. turtle results are in.

If you take out the wounding of puncturing and go for pure dps, I think a TWF fighter can definately keep up with a barb of any spec. Problem is that quite a few people are now multiclassing so heavily that they can't enjoy the power of a good TWF fighter. In fact most TWF I see are rangers and they can't do near the dps of a fighter, but have spells to compensate.

I will admit I don't have a level 14 TWF to comare anything with, but I am working on one (level 7 now) and I have never been beaten on the kill count by any other player, regardless of class. Even when someone runs ahead of the group to pad their kill count a bit I end up pullin ahead and usually leaving them in the dust.

I do think kill counts are a quite accurate way to gauge dps. Of course kills get sniped by other players, but overall it works out to show a fairly accurate dps meter. The only exception to this is on some rogues. I pull aggro off of just about any tank I group with so I prefer to switch targets regularly on my rogue to spread out my damage a little more to avoid aggro. Because of this tactic my kill count is usually fairly low but is a poor representation of my damage output.

Beherit_Baphomar
09-26-2007, 09:15 AM
Pretty much. My Barb has more HP and +2 crit range. That in my eyes just doesn't counterweigh all the upsides of my Ftr/Pal. But my barb is fun to play nonetheless.

Im the complete opposite of this. My barbarian is far, far better to play than my Paladin..Not because my pally is a gimp, but because the damage output on my barb is just....well, thats what the two are made for, killing, the barbarian does it far more effectively.

Strumpoo
09-26-2007, 12:56 PM
Well, if you are a 14 barb, there probably isn't one minute in a given quest when you aren't raging. ;)

My barb can rage for 21-22 minutes per rest. I haven't had a quest where I needed to be raged for more than that between shrines.

I would think the barb's saves should be close (if not higher) than your fighters when the barb is raged right? :confused:

XFracture
09-26-2007, 09:15 PM
Well, if you are a 14 barb, there probably isn't one minute in a given quest when you aren't raging. ;)

Yes and no. More often than not, yes.

I would think the barb's saves should be close (if not higher) than your fighters when the barb is raged right?

No. I actually should have corrected that it's +8 better not +6 when he's not raged. When he is raged his will save is 4 lower than my ftr, reflex being 8 lower and fortitude, off hand I think is a paltry 1 maybe 2 lower. I'll have to double check that.

Which I guess is no big thing but since I PUG non-stop it's more of a factor of not completing missions or progressing as fast not to mention all the afk's that happen.

But I also forgot to factor in the -2 that he recieves to AC while raging so in fact his AC is also 11 lower than my fighter.



As I said before, they BOTH get the job done. The Barb, who's pretty much a mirror image of the OP's "jellybean" minus the twin +1 W/P rapiers (I got 2x +2/3 puncturing rapiers of maiming, with a +2 paralyzing light pick of maiming I hot swap on occasion for giggles) does get the job done better. Not by a landslide by any stretch of the imagination but better nonetheless. However my fighter is just more self sufficient (i.e. reliable), meaning I heal myself more than my clerics do 1/2 the time and I manage to get hit much less (on most missions) then my Barbarian does.

But remember I am a HUGE twitch player. I'm constantly jumping, tumbling and circling my targets. And with that kind of playstyle my fighter just suits me better. It doesn't take anything away from the effectiveness of my Barb, just two different ways of playing. That's all.

Strumpoo
09-27-2007, 10:51 AM
As I said before, they BOTH get the job done. The Barb, who's pretty much a mirror image of the OP's "jellybean" minus the twin +1 W/P rapiers (I got 2x +2/3 puncturing rapiers of maiming, with a +2 paralyzing light pick of maiming I hot swap on occasion for giggles) does get the job done better. Not by a landslide by any stretch of the imagination but better nonetheless. However my fighter is just more self sufficient (i.e. reliable), meaning I heal myself more than my clerics do 1/2 the time and I manage to get hit much less (on most missions) then my Barbarian does.

But remember I am a HUGE twitch player. I'm constantly jumping, tumbling and circling my targets. And with that kind of playstyle my fighter just suits me better. It doesn't take anything away from the effectiveness of my Barb, just two different ways of playing. That's all.


Wasn't taking your comments as bashing one build or the other. Just wondering.:)

I think both build can be fun to play.

Like I said I prefer my barb due to my fascination with seeing huge damage number hit the screen. But a tactics type fighter could be fun too, I love all the feats they get.

maddong
09-27-2007, 12:00 PM
So are they actually going to run the contest with barbarian THF vs TWF vs fighter THF vs TWF? I was hoping the results would be out by now.

Renegade66
09-27-2007, 12:10 PM
So are they actually going to run the contest with barbarian THF vs TWF vs fighter THF vs TWF? I was hoping the results would be out by now.

Shade came on and laid down the gauntlet with the challenge and I took him up on it with Jellybean. Loki also took him up on it with his ranger Jealousy, but Shade ran for the hills.

He thought he was safe because we weren't on his server. When someone mentioned Risia he disappeared quicker than Bon Bons at a Weight Watcher convention.

Maldini tried valiantly to come to his defense, but he didn't have much of an angle to work with.

Very funny.

tihocan
09-27-2007, 12:18 PM
I got 2x +2/3 puncturing rapiers of maiming
There is no such thing as a "puncturing of maiming". Both puncturing and maiming are suffixes.

Strumpoo
09-27-2007, 01:08 PM
So are they actually going to run the contest with barbarian THF vs TWF vs fighter THF vs TWF? I was hoping the results would be out by now.

That's what I would like to see. All with plain jane +5 weapons. Then we would know the true "ultimate damage dealer" At least...kinda.. :eek: ;)

XFracture
09-27-2007, 08:21 PM
There is no such thing as a "puncturing of maiming". Both puncturing and maiming are suffixes.

LOL

That's my bad man. Whether or not those do or do not exist (which I am sure they do) you are however correct in the idea of me being wrong about my blades. One of those freudian slip thinga majiggies going on. Where you're thinking of one thing and write/say something else? I dunno what that's called but anyway while writing I was thinking of my Paralyzing Light Pick of Maiming, which appears in the same sentence that you are quoting, and for whatever reason i put maiming behind my rapiers as well.

The rapiers are weakening rapiers of puncturing. My bad and thanks for the heads up.

chewwook
09-27-2007, 11:15 PM
I see a lot fo people asking for a +5 contest, but that takes away part of why the barb is so much better. Give them both identical weapons- yes. But make them both bursting. Seriously how many of us run around with simply a +5 khopesh? Get identical bursting weapons and go from there, and you can see the dps difference with identical weapons.

Nick_RC
10-03-2007, 04:07 AM
LOL

That's my bad man. Whether or not those do or do not exist (which I am sure they do) you are however correct in the idea of me being wrong about my blades. One of those freudian slip thinga majiggies going on. Where you're thinking of one thing and write/say something else? I dunno what that's called but anyway while writing I was thinking of my Paralyzing Light Pick of Maiming, which appears in the same sentence that you are quoting, and for whatever reason i put maiming behind my rapiers as well.

The rapiers are weakening rapiers of puncturing. My bad and thanks for the heads up.

Hey X

Just curious as to how you find the weakening at mitigating dmg taken?

Wounding of puncturing is undoubtaly the faster killer of the two combinations but im curious about defensive wise. Say madstone elite for example.

Maybe this combination might make a barb with ac worthwhile as every hit you are reducing their to hit? not to mention you will have a nice reflex save 2wf.... interesting.

Rage

Strumpoo
10-03-2007, 09:47 AM
I see a lot fo people asking for a +5 contest, but that takes away part of why the barb is so much better. Give them both identical weapons- yes. But make them both bursting. Seriously how many of us run around with simply a +5 khopesh? Get identical bursting weapons and go from there, and you can see the dps difference with identical weapons.

That is a good point. How about both sides use a plain 'ol (I guess it can be called plain in this game..:eek: ) +1 Icy Burst of Pure good or something?

maddong
10-03-2007, 11:20 AM
I'd rather see the wounding/puncturing jellybean vs shade. Probably because I use wounding/puncturing I'm just curious how it stacks up on true loot *****s (I got my first raid loot about a week ago). They can always run it twice, once with +3 holy burst/greater banes and once with anything goes (wounding/puncturing vs pure damage).

XFracture
10-03-2007, 09:59 PM
Hey X

Just curious as to how you find the weakening at mitigating dmg taken?

Wounding of puncturing is undoubtaly the faster killer of the two combinations but im curious about defensive wise. Say madstone elite for example.

Maybe this combination might make a barb with ac worthwhile as every hit you are reducing their to hit? not to mention you will have a nice reflex save 2wf.... interesting.

Rage

I honestly don't take much damage. As I said in a previous post I'm a real big twitch player. I'm not the typical "run at the target, stand there and keep swining" guy. I'm the one that jumps over the target, get's a few swings in, tumbles to the left as the mob turns to attack, swings a few more times and then moves on to the next target.

Nor am I the first person into a room/encounter. I come flying in after aggro has been established on the point man and I start dwindling down the numbers. "Trimming the crowd" if you would. I'm also the guy that has nearly perfected the art of standing on top of my targets. They, for whatever reason, can't hit me while I'm ontop of them but I can beat the hell out of them. Anyone who has run with me undoubtedly has seen me demonstrate this several times.

However, if I understand your question correctly, I rarely pull aggro off of a pure DPS. I honestly believe that stat damage, for whatever reason, does not register as a big aggro grabber compared to that of pure DPS. More often than not if I go at the same target as a DPS toon, he's going to keep aggro off of me. Whether that DPS be a rogue, fellow fighter or even a mage. So as far as if they hit me as hard, I honestly can't tell you. I'll ask my room mate as he usually plays the meat shield. See if he's noticed a difference between running with me and w/o me as far as taking damage.

Saragon
10-22-2007, 10:05 AM
Interesting but long thread and I really don't see myself wading through all of it but, as is the case with most forums threads, I'll take the chance that the first and last pages provide sufficient insight into the discussion.

This dps vs. stat damage debate will rage on forever. Personally, I don't really care which one is more efficient at killing mobs in general questing. As far as I'm concerned both can get the job done fast enough for my liking.

My question is - how well does a stat damage build stand up to a pure dps build when it counts - that being, when you've got to switch to dps to take down a red named boss?

Renegade66
10-22-2007, 10:19 AM
My question is - how well does a stat damage build stand up to a pure dps build when it counts - that being, when you've got to switch to dps to take down a red named boss?

Back when this thread was in full swing (pre Mod 5), I would have answered that my Jellybean "stat dmg" build was not as powerful at dishing out DPS as my Blutus "THF" build with SoS, Bloodstone, 46 STR, etc. This was definitely true with high DR reds but much less so for non DR reds.

However, with the release of Mod 5, that has changed. Jellybean now dual wields Deathnips each of which crit on a 15 for an avg of over 160 dmg. I've swapped out my Stunning Blow for Power Attack and my DPS is just sick. Stormreaver is an excellent example due to his high DR. Jellybean dual wielding Deathnips now out damages Blutus and his SoS that hits for nearly 200 dmg on a 13.

Jellybean is no longer just the king of stat killing with twin w/p rapiers that crit on a 13, but is also the king of DPS with Power Attack, 46 STR and twin Deathnips.

Ren

BTW, Deathnips are tome turn-ins. They are +5 Heavy Picks that crit on a 19 for 4x dmg (15 for a Barb with Impr Crit Pierce) and has Seeker 8 and Maiming (3d6 non resistable dmg). Plus they look cool. ;)

oronisi
10-26-2007, 03:44 PM
Here's what I would really like to see: same two runs, with swapped accounts. Determine how much of it was player skill and how much of it was build/equipment. The kill count difference is simply too significant, which tends to make me feel that Renegade was also a notably more skilled player (no offense Nightbird). This feeling is underscored by the fact that Krakilor broke out a vorpal in a kill count contest, and was going sword-and-board.

Again, not intending to offend, Nightbird... heck, I was even on the barbarian side of this discussion. And I know my suggestion is against the EULA and all that. Perhaps a substitute competitor?

Don't forget heals! I want to add in a cleric that only used heal scrolls on the competitors, and kept count of how many each person took. Measuring your build by only one aspect is hardly a true measure.

Strakeln
10-26-2007, 04:30 PM
Don't forget heals! I want to add in a cleric that only used heal scrolls on the competitors, and kept count of how many each person took. Measuring your build by only one aspect is hardly a true measure.Fair enough, but in that case heals should only be sent upon request.

QuantumFX
10-27-2007, 12:06 AM
I see a lot fo people asking for a +5 contest, but that takes away part of why the barb is so much better. Give them both identical weapons- yes. But make them both bursting. Seriously how many of us run around with simply a +5 khopesh? Get identical bursting weapons and go from there, and you can see the dps difference with identical weapons.

+5 weapons plays to the critial rage enhancements as well. The +5 damage is pre crit so it gets modified by the crit multiplier. It also allows both contestants to kick on Power attack for additional pre-crit damage. Lastly, it's also easier to find.

The main thing is to remove wounding/puncturing from the equation. That's what the question is about Jellybean. His player thinks he's all that and a bag of chips but reading all of his posts the character just seems to be a collection of high end rapiers.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
11-18-2007, 05:03 AM
BTW, Deathnips are tome turn-ins. They are +5 Heavy Picks that crit on a 19 for 4x dmg (15 for a Barb with Impr Crit Pierce) and has Seeker 8 and Maiming (3d6 non resistable dmg). Plus they look cool. ;)

Looked at your trade list. Ive played since beta and played thousands of hours, and it just seems like you have faar too much of the right loot. Take of all your raid/uber loot and ask the same of Maldini, wield +5 scimys or an agreed upon weapon, I say Maldini would embarass you, badly. Sounds like you "buy" Plat or you "buy" the weapons using Visa or MC, or maybe you wear a +5 Magnetic Full Plate of Pulling (Raid Loot).

I'm typically not impressed by someone who has EVERY weapon they want, then picks fights with everybody and swears their great.. Just usually turns out that their "advantage" wasnt "earned."

Are you dictating that you either pulled in quest or bought all that loot in the Auction? Valid question, just stumped.

Borror0
11-18-2007, 07:06 AM
Looked at your trade list. Ive played since beta and played thousands of hours, and it just seems like you have faar too much of the right loot. Take of all your raid/uber loot and ask the same of Maldini, wield +5 scimys or an agreed upon weapon, I say Maldini would embarass you, badly. Sounds like you "buy" Plat or you "buy" the weapons using Visa or MC, or maybe you wear a +5 Magnetic Full Plate of Pulling (Raid Loot).

Sorry Leslie... put that is simply stupid!

Someone that has lots of good loot simply plays more and more effectively. He does not have such good loot because he bought it from farmers, he earned it. I understand you're a pooor little casual gamer that will never afford raid loot or expensive fear, but stop bashing others for have it. They earned it, and if you'd do the same as they did, you'd have it too. Good loot isn't as hard to come by as you think. A build isn't bad because he relies on one piece of loot. Sure, it's more gear dependant, but it's not any lesser. I know for sure that Jeallybean would PWN The Stout's ass, even with the best gear Renegade could afford.

A good build is a good build, no matter the gear it takes to make it work.

Maybe you don't have the gear to make it work, fine. But some do.


I'm typically not impressed by someone who has EVERY weapon they want, then picks fights with everybody and swears their great.. Just usually turns out that their "advantage" wasnt "earned."

Their advantage wasn't earned?

What do you mean? That the 3587989586968 times they ran PoP wasn't an effort?

Renegade66
11-18-2007, 09:58 AM
I have a full time job, play a couple hours a night and more on weekends. I've been playing since Alpha/Beta. I was able to loot or trade for the weapons I have with a manageable amount of game time. I didn't, but if you want to breakout your Visa and buy a w/p rapier from a dealer then go for it. It's your money. You really just need to have a vision of a build and gear then go out and make it happen. I traded a lot to get the gear I want and got lucky along the way. Deathnips are available to anyone and the jellybean build can be a lot of fun and a solid alternative to the generic THF build (Maldini and my own Blutus build).

I've played with the best and have never seen a THF build contend with dual w/p rapier wielding barbarian on elite hard to kill mobs. I would also contend that a w/p dual wielding fighter (Ilundel) or ranger (Jealousy) would also outkill the THF barbarian. To date, none of the so called experts have taken these guys up on the challenge.

One of the biggest "Barb experts" Shade initially laid down the gauntlet and said that he would own Jellybean and just wished we were on the same server. Someone said "Ok, how about Risia"? Obviously he thought he was safe and didn't think of Risia because he ran for the hills never to be seen again.

I always contended that the THF was better against red named, high DR bosses (e.g. Reaver). With the advent of the deathnip though, this is no longer the case. Jellybean dual wielding deathnips or offhanding with a greater bane weapon can match or exceed a THF in DPS now and not just in stat killing.

In the end, I offered this build up for people to try out and they have. I've had dozens of requests for build specifics and have seen a bunch of TWF barbarians running around. It's a solid build and a lot of fun. Take your jealousy and scorn, turn it into a deathnip and go build a jellybean. Most of all, have fun.

MondoGrunday
11-18-2007, 11:56 AM
hey ren,
i have a similar build, but i made a few tweaks to suit my playstyle (2 lvls of ranger for wand usage and twf feat so i could take umd focus). Other than the 2 lvls the primary focus remains the same, rage and swing the w/p piercing weaps. i find no body can keep up in pretty much all gianthold quests but out in litany I am average to a bit above average as a kill count leader due to the undead. currently i use 2 disruption weaps and some dwarven axes of greater undead bane.
my question here is , how do you fair against undead and what do you use to deal with them?
thanks in advance for info
mondo (aka Spiritmonger 12 Barb/2 Ranger - Ghallandra)

Mhykke
11-18-2007, 11:58 AM
Sounds like you "buy" Plat or you "buy" the weapons using Visa or MC


Honestly, where do you get the nerve? Do you feel the need to start fights on EVERY thread you are in?

Unbelievable.

Renegade66
11-18-2007, 12:34 PM
hey ren,
i have a similar build, but i made a few tweaks to suit my playstyle (2 lvls of ranger for wand usage and twf feat so i could take umd focus). Other than the 2 lvls the primary focus remains the same, rage and swing the w/p piercing weaps. i find no body can keep up in pretty much all gianthold quests but out in litany I am average to a bit above average as a kill count leader due to the undead. currently i use 2 disruption weaps and some dwarven axes of greater undead bane.
my question here is , how do you fair against undead and what do you use to deal with them?
thanks in advance for info
mondo (aka Spiritmonger 12 Barb/2 Ranger - Ghallandra)

You are really missing out on the extra pt of crit range at lvl 14 barb and you can't use wands while raged. I typically dual wield ghost touch disruption rapiers or longswords and turn off power attack. I do pretty well. I sometimes use a +4 Holy Maul of Pure Good too for DPS.

MondoGrunday
11-18-2007, 12:53 PM
ya i considered teh rage crit 2, but figure i'll get it at lvl 16. since i can shut off rage, the wands are great. i mostly use them to heal between fights when i'm not raged but from time to time i can sprint boost away from melee and shut rage off to heal up or use pots taht i carry as well. i have a 20 umd, so i really needed the umd feat and going ranger got that for me. i know there are other ways but i felt that was the best option for this build. i have one w/p rapier but i only have a w/p short sword for my off hand. its works well but not as good as two rapiers obviously. i have impr crit pierce so it helps a bit on the sword. i have a w/p long bow so the ranger feas help out there as well, plus i have a ton of "slaying" arrows. at lvl 20 i will lose out on the end game rage but i can deal with that for the other gains. all in all i love this build and he is extremely fun to play.

Strakeln
11-18-2007, 03:28 PM
ya i considered teh rage crit 2, but figure i'll get it at lvl 16.I fear they will move crit rage 2 up to level 16 barb with the update, based on all the (not too blatant) cries for nerf. My MC barb has been screwed more than once by moves like that :(

Renegade66
11-18-2007, 05:35 PM
ya i considered teh rage crit 2, but figure i'll get it at lvl 16. since i can shut off rage, the wands are great. i mostly use them to heal between fights when i'm not raged but from time to time i can sprint boost away from melee and shut rage off to heal up or use pots taht i carry as well. i have a 20 umd, so i really needed the umd feat and going ranger got that for me. i know there are other ways but i felt that was the best option for this build. i have one w/p rapier but i only have a w/p short sword for my off hand. its works well but not as good as two rapiers obviously. i have impr crit pierce so it helps a bit on the sword. i have a w/p long bow so the ranger feas help out there as well, plus i have a ton of "slaying" arrows. at lvl 20 i will lose out on the end game rage but i can deal with that for the other gains. all in all i love this build and he is extremely fun to play.

Sounds like a cool build. Nothing kills better than an archer with impr precise shot and greater slaying arrows. :D