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Rameses
08-30-2007, 03:06 PM
Hello everyone. I am, Rameses!

I’ve rolled and re-rolled a Rogue since I first signed up for a subscription to Dungeons and Dragons Online (DDO.)

At first I thought I’d roll a Rogue like I played back in my pen and paper days. That led to re-roll number one. Trapmonkeys, while in interesting just can’t cut it in DDO, because of the lack of combat survivability.

A few more trails and errors I heard about a Sorcerer character that a guild member was planning with Divine Vitality (DV’s.)

What! A Sorcerer with DV’s so unheard of. So I rolled one of these DV Sorcerer’s. The synergy of a Sorcerer’s Charisma and the Divine Vitality requirement of Charisma Score to determine the base amount of DV’s that you start with far surpassed my expectations.
But I felt that with Mod 4 coming out at the time that the gaming environment was about to shift again from Direct Damage to more insta-death type casting. And that level of Cleric needed to have access to DV’s just didn’t allow for the “hot spell” at the time.

So I sat back at the time and thought what other class could have that same shared Charisma synergy without taking a hit to the over all effectiveness of the class.
Mind you, I already had a capped Rogue at the time that I was less than pleased with and a bard named Nikke; that was one of the first True Battle Bards on the Argonnessen server.

I enjoyed the versatility of Nikke (High Cha and decent UMD) but had a growing hate of the Bard class. Mostly due to the ignorance of the average player towards the Bard class.

I figured I didn’t like my Cookie Cutter 13 Rogue - 1 Fighter. He was very bland with decent trap-smithing skills and not to shabby combat skills, but really lacked the versatility of my Bard. Yes, I didn’t invest into UMD.

Re-Roll! I heard the call, it must be done. At the time the Cookie Cutter had been changed; everyone was rolling 13 Rogues – 1 Rangers for wand usage and two weapon fighting. And I did not want to fall into the Cookie Cutter rut again. So I plotted my next Rogue: The Penitent Rogue.

I would invest Character Generation points into Int, Dex, Cha as my characters primary statistics. The rest would be “dump stats.” Boy did this provide hurdles to jump as I leveled this character.


Rameses: The Penitent Rogue
Level 14 Chaotic Good Halfling Male
(13 Rogue \ 1 Cleric)

Hit Points: 220
Spell Points: 150
BAB: 9\9\14

Saves (Self-Buffed)

Fort: 20
Reflex: 30
Will: 17

AC 38 (Self-Buffed)

Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 14)

Strength: 12 (6 base +1 tome +5 Str item)
Dexterity: 32 (16 base +3 level +2 Racial +3 Class +2 Raid Tome +6 item)
Constitution: 16 (8 base +2 Favor Tome, +6 Item)
Intelligence : 24 (18 base +1 tome, +5 item)
Wisdom: 14 (8 base +1 Tome, +5 item)
Charisma: 22 (15 base +1 tome +6 item)

Level Progression
1-2 level Rogue.
3 level Cleric.
4-14 level Rogue.

Why a level of Cleric you may ask?
Pros-
The Ability to use all Divine Wands without ever making a UMD check which is very helpful while leveling.
Divine Vitality: I was tired of hearing I am out of Spell Points; sorry.
Proficiency in all Armors (heavy, medium, light)
Proficiency in all Shields (exception Tower)
+2 Hit points
+2 Fort and Will Save

Cons-vs. 14 Rogue
-1 BAB on a class that is already short
-1 Trap Sense
-1 Reflex Save



Skills (Level 14)
Balance: 29
Bluff: 15
Concentration: 8
Diplomacy: 28
Disable Device: 44
Haggle: 42
Heal: 11
Hide: 47
Intimidate: 11
Jump: 37
Listen: 15
Move Silently: 45
Open Lock: 52
Perform: n/a
Repair: 10
Search: 48
Spot: 39
Swim: 7
Tumble: 18
Use Magic Device: 37

The Penitent Rogues feats have changed so much since originally rolling him.
Currently The Penitent Rogue has the following feats.

Level One: Two Weapon Fighting. (on character creation: Extra Turning for more DV’s)
Level Three: Weapon Finesse.
Level Six: Skill Focus: UMD. (originally Skill Focus: Search)
Level Nine: Toughness. (Originally: Exotic Weapon Feat: kama. Hey, I had a Vorpal Kama.)
Level Twelve: Improved Critical: Piercing

The Penitent Rogues enhancements are in such a state of flux it’s difficult to list an accurate portrayal.
Currently The Penitent Rogue has the following Enhancements.

Halfling Dex: II
Halfling Cunning: II
Rogue Faster Sneaking: IV
Rogue Sneak Attack Training: IV
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy: I
Rogue Skill: Search III
Rogue Skill: Spot III
Rogue Stat Dex III
Cleric Divine Vitality: I
Cleric Extra Turning I


Notable Equipment in use by level 14
Not everyone is going to have access to some or even any of the loot. I will list alternatives.
+5 Mithral Chainshirt
+5 Heavy Mithral shield
+1 STR/CHA/DEX/CON/INT/WIS Tome (prior to aquiring Favor and Raid Tomes.)
+5 Int Tiara (never used unless a hard trap to search for.)
+5 Wis Necklace (Subjective use.)
+6 Con Belt
+6 Dex Boots
+6 Cha Ring (always on for UMD)
+5 Str Bracers (RR: Halfling)
+5 Thieves Tools
+5 Protection Necklace
Greater False Life Ring
Sevenfingered Gloves (Worn at all times: Titan Raid Loot.) Golden Cartouche is a good substitute
Head of Good Fortune (Worn at all times: Reaver Raid Loot.) fairly common Reaver Raids are easy to come by.
Ring of Shadows
intricate field optics (can't waste your time searching for Secret doors)
+3 Wounding Short Sword of Puncturing
+1 Wounding Short Sword of Puncturing

Scrolls carried and used on a daily basis at level 14
Heal
Restoration
Raise Dead
Greater Heroism
Stone Skin
Mass Cure Moderate
D-Door (yes I still have a bunch)
Teleport
Greater Teleport
Mass Spell Resistance
Reconstruction
True Seeing

Wands used
Resistance and Protection Wands level 11
Blur Wands level 10
X-Retreat Wands level 10
Remove Curse
Remove Blindness
Cure Serious and Cure Critical (no UMD checks!)
Shield level 10

Items in the Cyan color come from input from Impact. Thank you again sir.


I know you would never do this Rameses but would going 11/2/1 rogue/paladin/cleric drop int to 17 and use a +1 tome so you only lose 4 skill points raise starting cha to 16 drop the extra point wherever pick up paladin charisma so...

net pros:
+1 DV
+1 UMD
+10/+6/+6 to your saves (or there abouts through cha/base)

net cons:
-4 skill points
-1d6 sneak attack
no crippling strike
its so overdone... ??? agree on this - Rameses!

just wondering how that would play out?

I like the idea, Connnor. And it is an intersting twist to the "Batman" type frame. With Mod 6 on the horizen and level Cap being raised to 16. Maybe. Just Maybe.
_________________
I am, Rameses!

Vengenance
08-30-2007, 05:55 PM
Damn fine build, wasn't to keen on it when it was first posted (*** a cleric level, silly halfking) but after seeing him in action and partying with him I must say he's a huge asset to have in any party. My rogue is of the 11 Rogue/1 Ranger variety <yawn>, but after seeing what ram can do with his rogue I have to step back and bow. He can fulfill Rogue duties <anyone can do this>, Ftr duties <not to bad>, and cleric duties <wow, pretty impressive>.


/clap

Hope to see more of these running around stormreach.

I have just one question, with the dragonmarks for halflings being centered around healing, couldn't that be a viable path for this build as well if you wanted to focus more on your healing potential?

Rameses
08-30-2007, 06:33 PM
Thanks Geryl... and I'd consider the Dragonmarks if they were not so FEAT intensive...

As it stands I switched (today) extra turning feat for Exotic Weapon Pro: Kama. Just so I didn't take a -4 penalty to hit with my Vorpal Kama.
Since I can't seem to pull any other type of Vorpals.

As far as pulling off clerical duties...

Even with the golden cartouche you'll end up with a 31 UMD which is far better than most other CHA based characters out there... so lets recap shall we...

Heal Scrolls (40 DC: Roll of 9 or better.)
Restoration Scrolls (32 DC: FREEBIE!)
Mass Spell Resistance (44 DC: 13 or better! Yikes!)
Wand of Resistance 11th level (NO UMD CHECK because it's considered a Divine Wand! FREEBIE!)
Cure Serious Wands (NO UMD CHECK because it's considered a Divine Wand! FREEBIE!)

and don't forget these!

7-11 DV's based on FEAT Choices!

I am, Rameses!

Snike
08-30-2007, 06:58 PM
Just so I didn't take a -4 penalty to hit with my Vorpal Kama.

Does the -4 effect confirming your crits also?

Rameses
08-30-2007, 10:15 PM
I want to say yes... but i never pay attention.

Rameses
09-07-2007, 11:57 AM
Over the weekend I obtained what others might have said was impossible.
with Rameses I "clericed" a reaver raid with the guild. It was a very cool time and very challenging.

I am, Rameses!

Roguewiz
09-07-2007, 12:34 PM
Question: What activates 1st, Caster Level check or UMD for the scrolls? Or, does it activate off whatever is "higher"?

Only the Pentinent Rogue (errr...One) shall pass. ;)

Aspenor
09-07-2007, 12:43 PM
Whichever roll has the higher percentage chance of success is the roll performed.

Roguewiz
09-07-2007, 01:11 PM
Whichever roll has the higher percentage chance of success is the roll performed.

Good, means I'll be able to hit my GHero scrolls on one of my other toons.

Aspenor
09-07-2007, 01:15 PM
Good, means I'll be able to hit my GHero scrolls on one of my other toons.

Aye, I scroll GH on my spellsword with 8 levels of sorceror. I like to save my planar gird for in case I get debuffed and need an insta-GH.

Rameses
10-23-2007, 08:43 PM
Re-written and information updated.

SableShadow
10-23-2007, 08:58 PM
Pretty sweet, Ram! :)

Have you considered swapping some of those points in Sneak Attack Training over to Sneak Attack Accuracy or are you hitting just fine with what you've got now? What kind of unbuffed attack bonus are you running these days? I mean, the unbuffed in inventory display, plus whatever sneak attack/halfling cunning on top of that?

Rameses
10-23-2007, 09:11 PM
Pretty sweet, Ram! :)

Have you considered swapping some of those points in Sneak Attack Training over to Sneak Attack Accuracy or are you hitting just fine with what you've got now? What kind of unbuffed attack bonus are you running these days? I mean, the unbuffed in inventory display, plus whatever sneak attack/halfling cunning on top of that?

I am at +24 / +26 to hit while duel-wielding W/P Short Swords (only weapon set I duel-wield) and have notice that I regularly hit without fail.
As far as Sneak Attacks go I've also noticed that I get agro A LOT. Apparently Mobs don't take kindly to stat damage.

I am, Rameses!

Umbra
10-24-2007, 07:12 PM
Does a level of cleric let you use resurection scrolls without a UMD check?

Rameses
10-25-2007, 10:58 AM
Does a level of cleric let you use resurection scrolls without a UMD check?

sadly not without a level check which would be a DC of 18 on a d20+2 roll.

Impaqt
10-25-2007, 11:27 AM
I like this build, but there are indeed Cons....
Based on a 14 ROgue Vs. 13/1

-1 BAB on a class that is already short.(this is actually Significant because it drops you from a 10 to a 9, therfore losing an attack in your chain)
-1 Trap Sense
-1 Reflex Save

Other Pros though....

+2 Hit points (meh)
+2 Fort and Will Save (Will especially is a terrible save on rogues)

Rameses
10-25-2007, 01:04 PM
I like this build, but there are indeed Cons....
Based on a 14 ROgue Vs. 13/1

-1 BAB on a class that is already short.(this is actually Significant because it drops you from a 10 to a 9, therfore losing an attack in your chain)
-1 Trap Sense
-1 Reflex Save

Other Pros though....

+2 Hit points (meh)
+2 Fort and Will Save (Will especially is a terrible save on rogues)

thank you and duelly noted.

Lithic
10-27-2007, 02:13 PM
Anyone who's played with Rameses should be impressed with how many heal scrolls he uses in a quest. Stat damage? Heal scroll. Wizard at 125/180hp? Heal scroll. Shut the cleric up? Heal scroll.

Man Rameses if you didnt have the bankroll, your build would run out of consumables and suck noodles :P

Rameses
10-27-2007, 04:13 PM
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2739/screenshot00013js8.jpg

Lithic, look at The Penitent Rogues hotbars, then think about what you know about me.
I am just way to lazy to hit "C" to use a Cure Serious Wand, it's much easier to hit "V" for a Heal Scroll.
On top of it! With an insane haggle like mine Heal Scrolls are not so spendy.

I am, Rameses!

SableShadow
10-27-2007, 04:16 PM
http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot00013uh9.jpg


Lithic, look at The Penitent Rogues hotbars, then think about what you know about me.
I am just way to lazy to hit "C" to use a Cure Serious Wand, it's much easier to hit "V" for a Heal Scroll.
On top of it! With an insane haggle like mine Heal Scrolls are not so spendy.

I am, Rameses!


Ditto. Laziness ftw!!! :D

Slayer918
10-30-2007, 08:14 PM
I know you would never do this Rams but would going 11/2/1 rogue/paladin/cleric drop int to 17 and use a +1 tome so you only lose 4 skill points raise starting cha to 16 drop the extra point wherever pick up paladin charisma so...

net pros:
1 DV
1 UMD
+10/+6/+6 to your saves (or there abouts through cha/base)

net cons:
-4 skill points
-1d6 sneak attack
no crippling strike
its so overdone...
???

just wondering how that would play out?

Scaramouche
10-31-2007, 07:25 PM
I'm building a variant on this with all three healing dragonmarks and 2 levels of fighter to pick up the slack on feats. With the high int, keeping skills maxed shouldn't be too difficult. My goal is to be an ultimate support rogue. Use ranged repeater fire to deliver status effects and disruption/smiting/etc as much as possible, while providing very solid off-healing and DVs.

My question is a little off topic. How do you get that 48 search? I'm new to the rogue class, so please forgive this newbie question, heh.

I figure 14 ranks search + 7 int bonus + search item (+13) = 34. With 3 points of enhancement, that's 37. Greater Heroism is ... +4, right? So 41? I'm just not sure how to reach that 48 mark. Thanks!

Lithic
10-31-2007, 07:36 PM
I'm building a variant on this with all three healing dragonmarks and 2 levels of fighter to pick up the slack on feats. With the high int, keeping skills maxed shouldn't be too difficult. My goal is to be an ultimate support rogue. Use ranged repeater fire to deliver status effects and disruption/smiting/etc as much as possible, while providing very solid off-healing and DVs.

My question is a little off topic. How do you get that 48 search? I'm new to the rogue class, so please forgive this newbie question, heh.

I figure 14 ranks search + 7 int bonus + search item (+13) = 34. With 3 points of enhancement, that's 37. Greater Heroism is ... +4, right? So 41? I'm just not sure how to reach that 48 mark. Thanks!

17skill +7 int, +13 search item (ramz might have a +15 item) +3 enhancement (possibly up to 6 if ramz took search 4 and way of the mechanic, but im not waiting for the previous page to load)+4 GH +2 luck bonus (reaver head) is 46.

Rameses
11-01-2007, 11:19 AM
My question is a little off topic. How do you get that 48 search? I'm new to the rogue class, so please forgive this newbie question, heh.

I figure 14 ranks search + 7 int bonus + search item (+13) = 34. With 3 points of enhancement, that's 37. Greater Heroism is ... +4, right? So 41? I'm just not sure how to reach that 48 mark. Thanks!

Search Skill Break Down.
17 Ranks
+7 Int Mod
+15 Search item
+3 Enhancements
+4 Greater Heroism
+2 Luck (Head of Good Fortune.)
= 48 (Self-Buffed.)

Hafeal
07-18-2008, 09:31 AM
Ramses -

How is this build holding up under the level cap? I would think some of Impaqt's concerns would now be alleviated.

I am thinking of re-rolling my rogue (rogue/ranger) and love the idea of a cleric splash. I was wondering two things about your build:

1. Faster Sneaking - I have tried it and find it really only can be useful with smart parties or soloing. I would lean toward the greater accuracy especially at higher levels.

2. Bluff. Tried it and diplomacy. Seems to me with the insta-diplomacy, it might be worth it to skip bluff and up diplomacy with those points. Any thoughts?



I like this build, but there are indeed Cons....
Based on a 14 ROgue Vs. 13/1

-1 BAB on a class that is already short.(this is actually Significant because it drops you from a 10 to a 9, therfore losing an attack in your chain)
-1 Trap Sense
-1 Reflex Save

Other Pros though....

+2 Hit points (meh)
+2 Fort and Will Save (Will especially is a terrible save on rogues)

Rameses
07-18-2008, 10:03 AM
Ramses -

How is this build holding up under the level cap? I would think some of Impaqt's concerns would now be alleviated.

I am thinking of re-rolling my rogue (rogue/ranger) and love the idea of a cleric splash. I was wondering two things about your build:

1. Faster Sneaking - I have tried it and find it really only can be useful with smart parties or soloing. I would lean toward the greater accuracy especially at higher levels.

2. Bluff. Tried it and diplomacy. Seems to me with the insta-diplomacy, it might be worth it to skip bluff and up diplomacy with those points. Any thoughts?

I've been told that my Penitent Rogue is one of the best on the server. Now personally I just play the game, I am competative so I get antsy a lot.
I fully encourage splashing in a level of cleric. This is my second version of the character and I love it.
1.) fair enuff
2.) I agree, Diplomacy is way more useful.

I am, Rameses!

kryxzik
07-21-2008, 09:59 AM
This may have been covered earlier.

If I'm not as interested in the DV's,but more for the melee aspect of the build...

What would the pros/cons of substituting paladin for cleric be?

Hafeal
07-21-2008, 11:57 AM
Off the top of my head you would get aura of good and smite. Unfortunately this build is chaotic so you would have to change alignment too. You could Barbarian I suppose, blends with Chaotic and gives you the speed boost. Then take cleric or ranger to get the healing w/o UMD check.

Impaqt
07-21-2008, 12:11 PM
I assume this build has become even better with the Level cap increase to 16. But for a Melee Monster, check out my latest Rogue build.

THe Paladin Splash rogue has been done to death. Its good.. Especially with a High Charisma. You can never have enough will save ona Rogue IMO.

Thrudh
07-21-2008, 12:28 PM
I think this build looks fun too, but you really can't ask Rameses how good the "Build" is doing...

The guy is dual-weilding W/P weapons!!!! :eek::eek:

So of course he rocks... Unfortunately (maybe fortunately) in this game, it's hard to tell if a character is good because of his build, his gear, or the player behind the character...

so yeah, everyone who has played with this character thinks he's awesome, but how much of that is the "Build"?

Starting with a 6 STR and a 8 CON on a rogue is probably not a good idea for most people...

Impaqt
07-21-2008, 12:36 PM
Starting with a 6 STR and a 8 CON on a rogue is probably not a good idea for most people...

QFT!

I would not advise this as a "My First Rogue" (Same withmy latest build)

Lithic
07-21-2008, 01:50 PM
I think this build looks fun too, but you really can't ask Rameses how good the "Build" is doing...

The guy is dual-weilding W/P weapons!!!! :eek::eek:



pfft they are just shortswords ;)

Hafeal
07-21-2008, 02:10 PM
I assume this build has become even better with the Level cap increase to 16. But for a Melee Monster, check out my latest Rogue build.

I will. I am currently working off one of your builds for a warforged Wiz. I was actually thinking Rameses build would actually be better for a Wiz splash rather than cleric given the high int; yea, you don't get the wands but perhaps for 1st lev spells ... I haven't looked to closely yet.


so yeah, everyone who has played with this character thinks he's awesome, but how much of that is the "Build"?

Starting with a 6 STR and a 8 CON on a rogue is probably not a good idea for most people...

Yeah as I toy with the build on the character planner and having run a couple through creation, I am not thrilled with the challenge of a low str and con. Even Raneses said it is a challenge though.

Impaqt
07-21-2008, 02:11 PM
I will. I am currently working off one of your builds for a warforged Wiz. I was actually thinking Rameses build would actually be better for a Wiz splash rather than cleric given the high int; yea, you don't get the wands but perhaps for 1st lev spells ... I haven't looked to closely yet.


If you were Warforged rather that Halfling though............. Hmmmmmmmmmm

Rameses
07-22-2008, 12:03 PM
I think this build looks fun too, but you really can't ask Rameses how good the "Build" is doing...

The guy is dual-weilding W/P weapons!!!! :eek::eek:

So of course he rocks... Unfortunately (maybe fortunately) in this game, it's hard to tell if a character is good because of his build, his gear, or the player behind the character...

so yeah, everyone who has played with this character thinks he's awesome, but how much of that is the "Build"?

Starting with a 6 STR and a 8 CON on a rogue is probably not a good idea for most people...

LOL well considering this is an old and out-dated 28pt version of my Penitent Rogue the W/P weapons were handy.
That being said The Penitent Rogue 32pt ( http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=136277) is much better and I don't rely on TOYS like a W/P. I am having much fun with my Radiance II weapon.

Necro for the WIN!

I am, Rameses!

SableShadow
01-27-2009, 10:14 PM
bump for upcoming maintenance