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View Full Version : What If Archers....?



Leftist
08-30-2007, 02:55 PM
:Posted this in another thread but it got lost in the shuffle...



What if they made Archery as deadly if not more deadly than Melee(damage, to-hit...). The way it is in real life. One or two successful shots = dead mobster. BUT(big but here) you only allow us to stack arrows in small stacks of maybe 10 or so. This would mean that you could totally take down an entire mob but if you have a series of bad attack roll numbers or you use up all your arrows early in the quest, you're forced to go Melee.

I think this might reward archers for putting a lot of emphasis on accuracy but limit us because we could only reasonably carry a hundred or so arrows on us at any given time. Not to mention being more limited by wanting to carry the special bane and effect arrows we find. There would also be no need to increase the drop rate or stack size of looted arrows because 10 +3 Bane arrows would be MORE than enough for a specific encounter.

Maybe I'm the only one that feels a little weird about the idea of carrying 5000 arrows on me. Sounds way out of proportion. Besides, I'd rather be a 1 shot 1 kill kinda toon than the way it is now. I might as well be throwing Snap-Caps at my enemies.

Before you all flame me, please take into account that I am not in favor of an UBER-IZATION of archery attacks, just want to make it more real and therefore balance it using real world limitations. You can only carry so many arrows, you can't always hit everything you want to kill but when you land a solid shot your enemy goes DOWN.

slumbering_dragon
08-30-2007, 03:20 PM
well to burst your bubble, this is not a real life game, its d&d, have u ever played PnP? all they need to do is speed up the firing rate of the ranged comabat to 1-1 ratoin with mellee thats all. if you want ubber damage try a holy of pure good bow with greater bane arrows on hot bar. thats what I do nd get very nice damage.

Leftist
08-30-2007, 03:49 PM
its a game. I know it sounds smart to tell someone that it's not "real life" but really smart people know that it goes without saying.

BUT to address your points, speeding up attack rates just means you have to carry more ammo. it also means that for those lucky enough to have the UBER BOW of NUCLEAR DESTRUCTION, they will start to do unreasonable amounts of damage. And as far as "just get xxxxx bow", the game shouldn't depend on having to find some rare item or buy it at the auction house just so you can be competitive with melee fighters.

Shade
08-30-2007, 11:24 PM
Even with the rarest bow, you won't be competitive with melee.

Your not meant to be.

The advantage of being and archer/ranger is your have much better survivability rate as you get a ranged attack, self buff, self healing and ability to run around like mad while fighting to avoid any kind of magic damage + evasion if you do get hit.

For all those benefits, if you also did the same dmg as a ftr or barbarian.. No one would ever play fighters or barbarian, theyd be completely useless.

Osharan_Tregarth
08-30-2007, 11:49 PM
Even with the rarest bow, you won't be competitive with melee.

Your not meant to be.

The advantage of being and archer/ranger is your have much better survivability rate as you get a ranged attack, self buff, self healing and ability to run around like mad while fighting to avoid any kind of magic damage + evasion if you do get hit.

For all those benefits, if you also did the same dmg as a ftr or barbarian.. No one would ever play fighters or barbarian, theyd be completely useless.

You mean they're not already? :eek:

Heh.. Couldn't resist the impulse Shade...


The only thing I don't like currently about archery is that we don't get some kind of scaling attack bonus to hit for standing still like the melee attacks get.

I think the current setup almost forces someone to min/maxing extremes in order to attempt to keep competitive with melee attacks. And by keep competitive, I mean *not missing* more attacks than you connect with.

Ilontu
08-31-2007, 02:33 PM
Although it isn't so in DDO (because of the +30 HP at lv 1), low levels in D&D (pnp) are like this.

A bow averages 4 damage per hit, and your averaqe person has 2 HP, meaning one arrow will most likely put them on the ground bleeding out only to die in a minute or so. Your average combat-hardened soldier has 4 HP as well, meaning that 1 arrow has about a 50/50 shot of putting them in a state of "dying" or just putting them very close to being in that state.

Most archers are only getting 1 shot per every 6 seconds, which is also similar to a professionally trained archer.

The problem is...where do you go from there when it comes to advancing the power of characters and enemies? D&D works off the basis of HP, to keep things steady and predictable. Instead of averaging 5 rounds worth of missing followed by a single kill shot, they meter it out so you do 5 rounds worth of nominal damage before you kill something. That way you don't feel like you just wasted 5 rounds without accomplishing anything before that final lucky blow, and most deaths aren't sudden and unavoidable (you have time to change tactics/flee/etc when you see things are going poorly). It keeps the pacing even, and lets face it, no one wants to lose their high level PC from one (un)lucky roll. Of course, D&D then takes a dump on the whole concept by adding save or die spells, but that's a whole other issue.

If you want to think in a realistic manner, HP isn't supposed to be a measure of just physical toughness. It's more a measure of vitality and their ability to continually dodge attacks, turning hits into near misses/grazes/etc. It's not that when you "hit" someone in D&D with 15 arrows that they've got 2 punctured lungs, no spleen/liver wooden shafts sticking through their eye sockets and their brain sliced into 4 separate pieces but they're just SO TOUGH they keep on fighting. It's that they've taken a few nicks and scratches and you've expended much of their energy to the point that their ability to keep dodging said hits is greatly diminished until one finally gets past them: ie you put that last hit on them that takes them below 0 health; That was an actual good hit.

KoboldKiller
08-31-2007, 02:55 PM
Need a faster attack rate on par with melee. There should be a scaling progression as well. The damages can increase with bow strength, banes and other types of bows. The gimping comes from my first two statements.