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Shade
08-30-2007, 12:59 PM
Whats better pure ranger, or a mix.

Say 14 Elf Ranger, 32 pnt vs
Elf, 10 Fighter, 2 Ranger, 2 Rogue

Stats id think keep the Str/Dex even for max dmg, but not max both as its too expensive.. Save a few pnts for con for hp and cha for umd. I think 17 str 17 dex.. +3 str lvls, for 20, +8 item/tome,, 28.. And dex +3 enhance, 20, +2 enhance, 22.. +8 item/tome, 30. hmm maybe 15 dex. (I wouldnt have much trouble getting the +2 tomes id get favor fast and raid allot)
For pure one anyways,,, multi would have to be different.

Focus would be on solo ability, while not being 100% gimped for groups.. So obviously pick up at least 1 melee feat, probably power attack. Then ofcourse bow related feats.

Pure would get excellent bonuses vs favored enemies, which is really all im concerned about as I can swap them as needed. Possibly the bonuses outweigh the greater wep spec you can get on the Ftr build? Not sure on the numbers if someone can add them up.

Then the multi one would get more feats, so more versatilility.. Plus rogue levels to pick up UMD as a class skill, aimed at the use of heal scrolls, where the pure one probably would never get high enough umd to use heal scrolls, but hed get SP to heal with a tiny bit faster then wand/potion.

Jaysensen
08-30-2007, 01:09 PM
10/2/2s dont solo as well as any archer build with 11Ra. But UMD is invaluable in a group...so build a Derge. But go Elf and only go 18 Dex.


Honestly, I dont think you should build an archer. It will probably do about 1/10 of the damage of Axer. Build a W/P finesse Ranger with PA. The numbers will be small, but youll rarely miss, and your twitch skill will bring out the Real Ultimate Power of the Ranger. While similar in concept, Rangers dont play at all like Rogues, though you can just move over gear from Rieley.

BNFEAR
08-30-2007, 01:37 PM
Well I have just about every build there is and a Ranger was my last (well still in process). I hear so much about STR, and I agree it is viable and important, however, Dex is more important to me so I do not miss on an attack. It is like weapons, +1 icyburst of PG is nice, but in an instance where you are having trouble hitting, a +5 will hit more often and create more damage IMO. With that said my Ranger end stats will be 18, 34, 16, 18, 16 with items. I may change my mind if someone gives me a good reason, to 20, 32, 16, 18, 16 with items, but it cant be more damage. But with a 34 Dex and a Planar Gird, it is like having SOTR without the feats.

As for the 2 levels of rogue and 2 levels of fighter you mentioned, I do not see the need for more than 1 level of each until the level increase, then I would go 2 Fighter. Unless you are having trouble with traps and such, but my friends Rgr has one level of rogue, and he has very little trouble with traps.

Now this is my first heavy ranger build, as I have mostly melee characters, but I am having no troubles thus far, and my kill counts are always at the top (Unless I am ranging... LOL). If I get in trouble and go Sword and Board, my A/C is 35 or 36 (cant remember) at level 7, which is plenty. The only bad habbit I have is that I am a Pot Junkie (expensive habbit... lol).

I am always open to suggestions, may not always use em, but I like to hear em.

Vengenance
08-30-2007, 05:45 PM
I have a 13 ranger / 1 Rogue that I love. Can pretty much disable any trap and open any lock even on elite. My ranger is a 32 pt elf and at level 14 I have a 26 Str / 30 Dex. Using the racial enhancements for longswords and longbows (+2 to Hit/+2 to damge) I function like I have a 30 str and 34 Dex. I can bring the pain with both bows and longswords. I have enough UMD to use all RR itmes and to raise dead when needed.

I think my starting stats were:
Str:16--->26 (+3 lvl +1 Tome +6 Item)
Dex:18--->30 (+2 Racial +3 Ranger Dex +1 Tome + 6 Item)
Con:14--->20 (+1 Tome +5 Item)
Int:12--->18 (+1 Tome +5 Item)
Wis:10--->16 (+1 Tome +5 Item)
Char:8--->14 (+1 Tome +5 Item)

Feats:
Point Blank Shot
SF: UMD
Toughness
Improved Critcal:Range
Improved Critical:Slashing

Maxed jump, UMD, and alternated disable, open lock, search, and spot (put fewest points into spot as I have Wild Instincts as one of my spells. This build works well solo or in a party.

QuantumFX
08-30-2007, 07:09 PM
Uh oh... this discussion again...

Anyway from the last go around a 12 Ranger/8 Fighter will be more effective in more situations than a 16 Fighter/2 Ranger/2 Rogue. You give up a whopping +1 to hit and +2 damage with a bow for fantastic self buffs, more melee capability and higher total stats. And if you go 1 Rogue/12 Ranger/7 Fighter the situation favors the ranger build more.

sigtrent
08-30-2007, 09:13 PM
I have an elven Ranger 11 Paladin 3 in progress. Not sure he's a solo god but he is quite versatile and durable. Unlike pure rangers his will save is pretty decent and he can use a pretty massive range of wands.

Shade
08-30-2007, 11:13 PM
Hmm yea I guess 11th ranger is pretty powerful for resist + protection. Where as I can wear all those items on the ftr build, it wouldnt leave much slots for other important gear.

I know I could self heal well enough with wand + potion combo.. But still the heal scroll thing I really like..
So what about the 13 ranger/1 rogue build.. What do you lose from ranger for doing that? aside from the obvious 4th level spells which seems to be basicly freedom of movement, which is nice but can always pick up the boots..

I dunno about W/P finnesse idea. I don't like to be pidgeon holed into 1 deal and suck at everything else. W/P is fine, but Str based ranger outdamaged it vs favored enemies with good greater banes. Especially ones like undead imune to stat dmg. Other problem is I don't have any w/p rapier, or really a solid collection these days. Have more greater banes and dmg weapons these days as I trade the other ones.

Yea I know the dmg will suck and it might turn me off halfway thru lvling who knows.. But its always funny when I outkill ppl with twitch skill on a weak class, ranger would be the best for that heh.

QuantumFX
08-31-2007, 02:12 AM
For dipping 1 level of rogue (and doing the smart thing of actually maxing out DD/Spot/Search/UMD) you only lose some action points. You'll usually keep the Skill boost maxed out and the search enhancements cranked up to +2/+2 if you're an elf. You do gain some points in some minor skills and +d6 sneak attack.

Osharan_Tregarth
08-31-2007, 02:47 AM
The thread it was based on vanished in the great purge, but I'm liking the 11/2/1 Ranger/Paladin/Rogue that I'm running up. Mine is a human, but the stats work out better for a drow, and the ranged skills work out better for an elf(32 point builds, of course).

I'm currently running up(kinda slowly) a drow version as well, just to see how much it really bugs me to start with a 16 dex instead of an 18.

I think one or the other of these might even replace one of my pure rangers some day.

I've put in enough umd on Isharan to hit a 22 umd buffed with gear on, but being able to get the umd as a class skill is hard to resist.

Jaysensen
08-31-2007, 01:24 PM
While levelling up, you should use a Silver Bow. You put it away when melee gets the 3rd swing. At low levels Archery is superior to melee.

FOM isnt exclusive to Rangers, so if its "necessary", Im sure your Cleric will have it. The real difference is that at level 20 you lose another Favored Enemy and +2 stackable damage on FEs.

Even on finesse, you still do decent damage with the correct greater banes. If you dont dip into Pally levels, you can start with 14 STR and 18 DEX and still do decent damage on finesse. I would bet that you feel the same as me - missing sucks. I tell you this, playing my STR ranger vs my finesse ranger is completely different. I have to twitch A LOT less to maintain my attack bonus and (pay more attention to my buffs), and thus taking more damage. I guarantee you will like finesse better.

On a side note, the more Vorpals and Disruptors etc are in the group, the less valuable raw DPS is. And in some Cases, Cursespewing is just better than DPS.

Back to Soloing-Archery, were I to make an archer, Id go 13Ra/1Ro or 11Ra/2P/1Ro. I would design my item build in advance, and decide how I wanted to tune the Ranger.

BNFEAR
08-31-2007, 01:38 PM
I see a few replies talking to levels of Paly, so I would like to ask what it is you all see in Paly vs Ftr? Paly is a Cha class, and 2 levels is usually for using your charisma mod to saves, but you do get LOH, but that is also Cha based. Two levels of Fighter gives you 2 extra feats and tower shield profeciency and a bonus enhancement to STR. I am not saying Paly is not good, I just want to know why some of you feel it is better than Ftr?

Thanks,

Osharan_Tregarth
08-31-2007, 01:57 PM
I see a few replies talking to levels of Paly, so I would like to ask what it is you all see in Paly vs Ftr? Paly is a Cha class, and 2 levels is usually for using your charisma mod to saves, but you do get LOH, but that is also Cha based. Two levels of Fighter gives you 2 extra feats and tower shield profeciency and a bonus enhancement to STR. I am not saying Paly is not good, I just want to know why some of you feel it is better than Ftr?

Thanks,

Why paladin vs fighter? I think it just depends on individual playstyle really. If you are going for more of a front line combatant style, then the fighter levels would probably be the way to go. For soloing, I tend to favor something a little less "in your face".

For me, I want the extra bonus to savings throws. My evasion paladin ends up with a higher reflex save than my pure ranger, even with the pure ranger having a +5 save item, and the paladin having a +4. And my weak spot on my pure ranger, as well as my previous ranger rogue was will saves.

Paladin cha I vs Fighter str I... Just depends how much umd usage you want out of the character. Again more of a playstyle difference. The fighter will give you another (potential) point of damage, vs the paladin with another (potential) point of umd.

Also for two action points you can get the enhancement for +1 to hit with a longbow with the paladin levels.

As far as the feats go... Does evasion still work when using a tower shield? I've never actually tried before, so I don't actually know.

BNFEAR
08-31-2007, 02:07 PM
Why paladin vs fighter? I think it just depends on individual playstyle really. If you are going for more of a front line combatant style, then the fighter levels would probably be the way to go. For soloing, I tend to favor something a little less "in your face".

For me, I want the extra bonus to savings throws. My evasion paladin ends up with a higher reflex save than my pure ranger, even with the pure ranger having a +5 save item, and the paladin having a +4. And my weak spot on my pure ranger, as well as my previous ranger rogue was will saves.

Paladin cha I vs Fighter str I... Just depends how much umd usage you want out of the character. Again more of a playstyle difference. The fighter will give you another (potential) point of damage, vs the paladin with another (potential) point of umd.

Also for two action points you can get the enhancement for +1 to hit with a longbow with the paladin levels.

As far as the feats go... Does evasion still work when using a tower shield? I've never actually tried before, so I don't actually know.


I see where ya are coming from, it just did not seem worth it to me for saving throws when the starting stat seems to be 10 Cha and with a +6 item and Paly Cha I, that is only +3 to saves. Like you said it is player preference. As for the evasion, it still works with a Mith Tower, that is all any of my characters use and mine are all evasion except the Cleric. Now I am a huge advocate on UMD, all my characters have it, except my Cleric... lol.. and the lowest UMD is a 34 buffed (I am a scroll junkie!!!) lol...

Thanks for the input...

Jaysensen
08-31-2007, 02:29 PM
It is like wearing TWO Resistance Items. But it costs you a slot, so you need to look at item build. The difference in saves is huge.

A LOH is also faster than a potion, which in and of itself can save you.

Fighter levels are good too, but if you are going to triple class, that means you are going for versatility. Which means Pally levels are almost just plain better.

QuantumFX
08-31-2007, 03:01 PM
Paladin levels also give you more spell points and it segways nicely into wild empathy/improved wild empathy.

Shade
09-01-2007, 05:20 AM
Like all my chars, id focus more on DPS then worrying too much about special effects like vorpal disruption etc.. I really do not use those weapons as I find them unreliable and difficult to trade for (actualy I sell all the ones i find) Id use a good wounder ofcourse, but thats about it for special weapons for me.

17 str +3 lvls vs 19 dex +5 enhancement 20 vs 24, is only a difference of +2 to hit. Then one could swap wep finese feat for wep focus, bring the difference down to +1 to hit. Now you could sacrifice damage and pit the levels into dex for a net of +3 to hit vs str, but still +3 is not a huge deal, and not worth it to sacrifce all that dmg imo.

My rogue was finesse build, and even with the weak BAB of a rogue, he still everyting quite easy. Also with all the benefits of sneak attack dmg working well on a finesse build id still say even STR based rogue would be fine. Rangers.. Str for sure.

Now ofcourse an archer build still needs high dex to hit well, but again the loss vs putting the levels in it is small enough to overcome.

Re: blah blah blah at level 20. I think building for level20 right now is a bit silly. I can't predict the future, and neither can you so to say XXX will gain this by lvl20 or not, is just speculation. DDO is not DnD, and DDO at lvl20 will not be the same game as DDO at lvl14.. The game will change ALLOT in the many months leading up to that, same as it has from lvl10 to lvl14. Very few ppl planned good multiclass builds from what we knew at beta for today, and the same will hold true for lvl20. Just have to take that risk as a multiclass imo. Pure is usually pretty safe as you get to play with all the new enhancements good or bad as they come out, where as the low lvl benefits of your 2ndary classes gain no benefit and might be nerfed to be more in line with PnP (ala evasion fix)

Re: Paladin levels. Eh, elf gets enchant resist anyways for will save, and ranger gets high reflex and fort save as a class. So I don't see the benefit of a few more saves as worthwhile, the fighter feat can free up a regular feat for +saves feat anyways if such is desired, while keeping the FTR enhancements, which are better then a paladins at low lvl.
LoH is good no doubt, but not sustainable and not healing enough dmg to make a noticeable diffecent. Vs rogue lvls for umd to heal scrolls, which is a big unlimited heal.. tho would be unreliable without perfect umd gear.

Ftr lvls could gain the better AC i think , as you could take combat expertise. Thats works with bows right? and no dmg penalty cuz theres no ranger power attack so it sounds cool.. The -5 hit penalty would be tough to handle in many quests but doable with the right gear i'd think.

With moderate to high dex in mind, would going dwarf for there many bonuses like armor mastery make sense? Or do you gain more AC with the white dragon robe in the end with elf dex?

Meriadeuc
09-01-2007, 09:55 AM
Solo play is different from group play in a number of ways.

First of all, defense in general and saving throws in particular are much, much more important. Since there's nobody else there to bail you out, a failed will save frequently means quest over, dude. As a ranger (even an elven ranger), you literally cannot have your will save high enough. The freedom of movement spell has helped a lot in this department, but there's still Otto's and greater command (which can be just as deadly as hold). Hence the appeal of taking 2 or 3 paladin levels, if you can make the intitial stats and the end-game equipment work out.

AC is pretty important in places as well, so having a bit of a paladin aura is also nice. A dwarf with armor mastery III and a mithril breast plate will get you the highest AC up until a dex of 34, at which point the white robes will break even (the white robes have other benefits as well, of course).

Of course, the ultimate defense is not having things able to hit you at all, so archery in general (and kiting in particular) is much more important when you're soloing. I doubt there's any class with any sort of equipment that could sucessfully melee the BAM king solo on elite. But with a cripling bow of greater dwarf bane (I got mine for a song from the AH), it's pretty straightforward for a soloing ranger to lead him arround in circles, peppering him with arrows until he expires.

Disable device, on the other hand, is much less important when you're soloing, providing that you have evasion and a high reflex save. Providing that you're not stupid and don't keep running through a trap over and over again, the ocassional 1 on a reflex save isn't going to cause you too many problems (and in some cases you can even use the traps to help thin out your enemies).

Finally, stealth really is invaluable when you're going solo. In addition to the critical function of scouting out your enemies and formulating a cunning plan in a quest you've never done before (which, for me, is the real fun of soloing), once you're familiar with the layout you can also use stealth to bypass large portions of a quest that you're just trying to get through quickly. I routinely do Chains Of Flame and Tomb Of The Wizard King solo on normal when I'm getting ready for the Demon Queen raid, just because it's usually quicker to get started on them right away and bypass 80% of the mobs than it is to get a group together then have to fight all your way through.

Because of the benefits to stealth, reflex saves and archery, I tend to think that a high dexterity approach is best for a solo ranger, although high strength, moderate dex can certainly work as well. An elf with 3 level of paladin and the rest ranger is very appealing, providing you have the tomes and the equipment to take full advantage of it. In any case, I'd be carefull about taking more than 3 non-ranger levels, since if they end up with any sort of a decent implementation of the hiding in plain sight feat at ranger level 17, it's going to be a huge, huge boon for a soloing ranger.

Another possibility, now that the halfling luck enhancements are being de-nerfed, is a halfling pure ranger. You get pretty good saves, +1 to hit and to AC, and you get the advantage of all 5 favored enemies at level 20 (which will be pretty nice if you pick them well). It's also much less demanding for stats and equipment, since you don't have to worry about getting a good charisma bonus. Be carefull of the tempation to go too low on strength, however, since with the 3/4 carrying capacity it's very easy to become overloaded when you're hit by a bad ray of enfeeblement.

Jaysensen
09-02-2007, 05:21 PM
Like all my chars, id focus more on DPS ..

Ftr lvls could gain the better AC i think , as you could take combat expertise. Thats works with bows right? and no dmg penalty cuz theres no ranger power attack so it sounds cool.. The -5 hit penalty would be tough to handle in many quests but doable with the right gear i'd think.
...
With moderate to high dex in mind, would going dwarf for there many bonuses like armor mastery make sense? Or do you gain more AC with the white dragon robe in the end with elf dex?

Based on everything you just said, you should definitely scrap elf-archer altogether and go Dwarf STR TWF. You wont like CE and Archery. Without scaling attacks, even with max DEX, having CE on while shooting is noticable.

spifflove
09-03-2007, 01:37 PM
Shameless plug for archer build. Also check out Sigtrents bard version which is even better if you are just looking at the archery aspect. Honestly though you should probably play a Gol ranger or Retribution ranger.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=118824

sigtrent
09-03-2007, 02:46 PM
I see a few replies talking to levels of Paly, so I would like to ask what it is you all see in Paly vs Ftr?
,

For mine, I was looking for a "survivalist", basicaly a character that could survive nearly any situation and run stones to wherever they needed to go and the like. Paladin 3 gives you +2, around +6 to all your saves (more depending on cha investment), lay on hands, fear and disease immunity, smite evil (and as an elf using rapiers a nice chance to crit with it). And finaly you get a huge range of wand use between the two classes (mostly relevent at low levels). Rangers have some pretty poor enhancments so any mulit classing can help that out. You also get access to the clerical enhancments, either longsword or longbow +1. This gives you a nice, cheap little version of weapon focus for free.

The two feats from fighter 2 are nice and fighter 3 gets you +1 ac which is also nice. Tower shield is a waste for a ranger because the dex restriction actualy lowers your AC if anything. You also get a bit more more SP (than fighter mix) because both ranger and paladin base SP on WIS.

HorridForm
09-04-2007, 07:25 AM
I have a very good solo Archer build. I can say that having a 3 arrow many shot, sprint IV and devotion IV helps alot.

Sadus
09-10-2007, 01:56 AM
Best Archer Solo Build = Halfling Ranger with all 3 Dragon Makes and Full Upgraded Enhancements = 9 Cure Lights, 7 Cure Serious, 5 Heals. All Can be Effected by Ranger Devotion Enhancements and Empowered Healing if u so choose.

Feats could be:

1 Wep Finesse

3 Least Dragon Mark

6 Least Dragon Mark

9 Grt Dragon Mark

12 Empowered Healing

(I saw why bother with IC Ranged .... Bows have arse Threat Range) Just go for Useful Mod + Greater Bane Bows...

Nice Thing About Ranger is they get 90% of their Class Defining Abilities as Class Feats. So really other than Wep Finesse (for Dex Builds) really all your level granted feats are pretty much whatever...

I Think the Math on Heals is about 30-40 on Cure Lights, 60-70 Cure Serious, 200+ Heals. Maybe Take a Level of Rogue for Skills (UMD), 2 Levels of Pally if you want a Sv's Boost... or 1 or 2 levels of Wizard for Wand Use, Shield and Expedious Retreat. Nothing is going to Aid your Survivability more than that 2000+ Hps of free healing per Rest Shrine. Take a Couple Levels of Wizard and you'll prob have a pretty decent AC while using a bow plus stone skin wands and u should be able easily use blur scrolls (3 Mins a Pop).

Meriadeuc
09-10-2007, 07:02 PM
(I saw why bother with IC Ranged .... Bows have arse Threat Range) Just go for Useful Mod + Greater Bane Bows...



A major attraction of improve critical: ranged for a solo ranger is getting crippling to go off twice as often. A crippling bow of greater bane with IC ranged is a kiter's dream as long you have at least a little room to manuever (and kiting is a key solo tactic against dangerous opponents). The best part is that (at least untill the next update) crippling works on absolutely everything, including red and purple named bosses.

Sadus
09-11-2007, 01:45 AM
I guess if your going to be totally devoted to bow you could even drop Wep Finesse start your dragon marks earlier and take IC Ranged... although I don't see 19-20 as a huge increase vs 20... to give up a feat for...

Meriadeuc
09-11-2007, 05:14 PM
I guess if your going to be totally devoted to bow you could even drop Wep Finesse start your dragon marks earlier and take IC Ranged... although I don't see 19-20 as a huge increase vs 20... to give up a feat for...

I'm certainly not totally devoted to archery. In fact, I use a one-hander and a shield much more in general. But there are a number of fights that just cannot be done solo with melee (by anyone, not just by a ranger). For those situations, you have to use archery, and when you do an increase to 19-20 really IS a big deal. It doubles the chance of crippling, and once you get things crippled the whole process of kiting becomes much, much easier. So getting it done as soon as possible is easily worth a feat. When you're with a group, of course, things are totally different since kiting is rarely ever needed (usually, only for rust monsters). But when you're soloing there are places where you simply can't do without it, and in those circumstances IC ranged
is a great thing to have.

Sadus
09-13-2007, 06:40 PM
I'm certainly not totally devoted to archery. In fact, I use a one-hander and a shield much more in general. But there are a number of fights that just cannot be done solo with melee (by anyone, not just by a ranger). For those situations, you have to use archery, and when you do an increase to 19-20 really IS a big deal. It doubles the chance of crippling, and once you get things crippled the whole process of kiting becomes much, much easier. So getting it done as soon as possible is easily worth a feat. When you're with a group, of course, things are totally different since kiting is rarely ever needed (usually, only for rust monsters). But when you're soloing there are places where you simply can't do without it, and in those circumstances IC ranged
is a great thing to have.

True enough... it does double a very small % of crit chance :)