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transtemporal
08-29-2007, 04:52 PM
OK I hear people talking all the time about "PK this, PK that" "Best spell in the universe" etc etc but on paper, it really doesn't look that great: a spell that allows spell resistance, then a will save, then a fort save?

Do people land this spell without fail, every time? Because it seems like it would fail a lot (how many creatures have a bad will save AND a bad fort save?)! If you do land the spell every time, how do you do it? Illusion school focus(es) and spell pen enhancements/feats/items?

Interested to hear your thoughts!

Cheers,
transtemporal

Arnya
08-29-2007, 04:59 PM
Having a 1clr/13sorc this is my instakill spell.

PoP rooms ie: fire and ice I can PK 80-85% on first hit; named guys about 50% including Kardin and Parnamuul.

I have heighten spell, illusion bracers and a spell pen 7 item...

The run up the halls? 98% accuracy - PK FTW

If you really want to up the odds theres the spell pen lines and, of course, curse/enervate to drop their saves

wiglin
08-29-2007, 05:09 PM
I love pk. With 32 cha 2 focus feats and an item I rarely fail anything that is pk'able. Some mobs like earth elementals just need to be hit with enervate first.

You learn what mobs tend to fail both saves on the first hit. Pretty much every mob in the gianthold quests can be pk'd with ease. As long as I get pass the spell resistance of certain mobs, I have not had any trouble pk'ing them.

FoD would be just as effective, but it has a couple of drawbacks.
1. With improved empower pk is cheaper.
2. Cooldown time is little longer.

As effective as pk is for me, those two drawbacks are enough for me to have something else for my level 7 spell.

I am an illusion focused pk'ing machine, but I do not slack on other spells. Firewalls do a ton of damage maximized with a superior potency item and full fire enhancements.

If for some reason I am rolling low on spell resistance, I just web the mob and let the mellee beat it down.

Mobs that need a little disco inferno usually have such low will saves that everything lands with ease.

So at the end of the day I wanted my pk to be as potent as it could.

I have partied with sorcerers that opted for more sp and no focus feats, and watch them try to pk the clerics in pop to fail over and over, then I come along and nail it the first time. In fact I can pretty much pk everything in pop on the first try. If it doesn't have a name it will usually die on the first pk. If it does have a name it may take a try or two or three.

It really is a play style choice. I know really good sorcerers that would rather nuke and use more cc methods, this is just as effective. It just depends on what you want to do.

Plus you have to think about mod 5. If we spend as much time in mod 5 content as we do now in the gianthold then the insta'kill sorc is gonna take a step back in effectiveness, or they will respec like me...lol

Vordax
08-29-2007, 05:13 PM
Having a 1clr/13sorc this is my instakill spell.

PoP rooms ie: fire and ice I can PK 80-85% on first hit; named guys about 50% including Kardin and Parnamuul.

I have heighten spell, illusion bracers and a spell pen 7 item...

The run up the halls? 98% accuracy - PK FTW

If you really want to up the odds theres the spell pen lines and, of course, curse/enervate to drop their saves

Finger of death is better though. Same spell point cost, spell pen 7 and necromancy bracers and only 1 save. If 98% is what your getting with PK then you would get 99.9% with FOD.

Vordax

Arnya
08-29-2007, 05:22 PM
FoD sure, but I would never give up my cleric level with the 3 free spells, wand use, 150-250sp dvs, willsave, extra SP for wis bonus

It's all down to playstyle. Basically if I can't one shot it with scorching ray then it gets PK'd...

Best Single Scorching Ray: 364 damage (empowered, I don't carry maximise) 3 of them you're looking at nearly 1200hp damage...

EDIT: only 3 rays!!!

Jaywade
08-29-2007, 05:31 PM
on my wizzy I use both so the cool downs don't matter...if my pk misses I fod, if it lands it's tab next target fod, then pk then fod then pk...lot's of fun

MondoGrunday
08-29-2007, 05:34 PM
in one word, YES!

pk rocks as does finger. i get wand usage on my sorc without the lvl of cleric but to each his own.

Arnya
08-29-2007, 05:38 PM
You get UMD usage. I prefer not to roll a 1 on remove para when the cleric is held.... I can now also use mass SoF etc wands without even 5% risk of failure.

...And, at lvl7 I could make a DC15 caster level check on raise dead scrolls... not bad having a 25% chance. My UMD only overshot this at like lvl12... when I had the cartouche and rabbit gloves.

Yeah, I like the versatility. And so do most of the people I run with :)

transtemporal
08-29-2007, 11:27 PM
Thanks all, just reading the other thread about instakill / nuker cross, it sounds like I might be spreading myself a little thinly to try and get both concepts working nicely. Will test it out I think. On Dantooine. :)

Deragoth
08-30-2007, 08:58 AM
I've had a lot of luck with PK. With the spell focus feats, and the added benefit of a really great Hypnotic Pattern, I find illusion to be very effective. I use Flesh to Stone for my gauranted caster killer, though.

Want to have some fun? Throw a fear spell at charging mobs, and PK/Stone any that are shaken. Most will be feared, and out of the fight, but ALL will have a -2 on there saves. It works great.

jkm
08-30-2007, 12:46 PM
FoD sure, but I would never give up my cleric level with the 3 free spells, wand use, 150-250sp dvs, willsave, extra SP for wis bonus

It's all down to playstyle. Basically if I can't one shot it with scorching ray then it gets PK'd...

Best Single Scorching Ray: 364 damage (empowered, I don't carry maximise) 4 of them you're looking at nearly 1500hp damage...

you get 4 rays?

ethsar46
08-30-2007, 06:41 PM
I mainly use PK if FoD is on timer or it fails.

Ive never had much problem landing too much, unless the quest is elite i guess.

Ive been running reaver alot tho, FoD and PK spam is great for elems.

Arnya
08-30-2007, 06:47 PM
you get 4 rays?

Edited - think I confused with MM :)

Guildmaster_Kadish
08-30-2007, 08:48 PM
It isn't about the monsters having a low will and fort save, it's about the sorceror having a high DC. Let's say 32 charisma.

10 Base DC + 7 Spell Level (Heightened) + 11 Charisma = DC 28. If you have higher charisma, or an item for spell DC's, then your DC is even higher.

I find that I can land PK nearly always on normal, and probably 80%ish on elite with my 12/2 sorc pally. I'd imagine a pure sorceror would do even better (1 higher charisma modifier and 1 higher spell level).

So yes, I'd say Phantasmal Killer is "That Good" (even if Finger of Death is better).

Master Kadish

MrWizard
08-30-2007, 09:09 PM
OK I hear people talking all the time about "PK this, PK that" "Best spell in the universe" etc etc but on paper, it really doesn't look that great: a spell that allows spell resistance, then a will save, then a fort save?

Do people land this spell without fail, every time? Because it seems like it would fail a lot (how many creatures have a bad will save AND a bad fort save?)! If you do land the spell every time, how do you do it? Illusion school focus(es) and spell pen enhancements/feats/items?

Interested to hear your thoughts!

Cheers,
transtemporal

Yea...with spell pen it works well. Don't understand it...but it works great.
Certain types save more than others....fighters seem to save more, clerics and casters fail good....dont know why..

but yea, its awesome

Aspenor
08-30-2007, 10:35 PM
Finger of Death > Phantasmal Killer

Additionally, spell penetration items, feats and enhancements only improve spell resistance check rolls, and do not affect spell DCs.

Arnya
08-30-2007, 10:43 PM
Well there are SF and GSF feats....

And some of us multiclasses don't have access to lvl7 spells.

Actually, I can only heighten to a lvl6 spell with my 1clr/13sorc... doesn't bother me at all , PK still hits a LOT of the time with nothing more than heighten (to lvl6) and illusion bracers... which makes it the DC of a heightened pure sorc spell... still no complaints from me.

EDIT: AND I can cast cause fear (lvl1 cleric spell) for a -2 to their saves :) I know it's not much, but even shaken mobs have -2 saves - this helped a lot until the mobs were > 6HD

Arnya
08-30-2007, 10:48 PM
Yea...with spell pen it works well. Don't understand it...but it works great.
Certain types save more than others....fighters seem to save more, clerics and casters fail good....dont know why..

but yea, its awesome

Answer:

Fighters have higher CON stats = higher FORT saves

Casters have higher WIS stats = higher WILL saves (if its an arcane caster, just check the saving throw progression for wizards/sorcs - better than a fighter for sure)

Spell pen does not factor into the equation unless mob has SR.

Jakylpops
08-31-2007, 02:35 AM
Throw an Enervation or two at anything that is likely to save and it will drop quite easily.

Blind_Skwerl
08-31-2007, 06:15 AM
I use PK alot, and I don't even heighten it. 34 charisma, spell pen feat and enhancements, illusion focus item, Greater spell penetration 4 scepter. It lands alot. Alot. :cool:




Alot.

Shade
08-31-2007, 08:21 AM
PK is great.

But for those mega high will save mobs, FoD is far superior.
Main things like that are many named mobs, evil outsiders and caster types.

For now I'll keep both, basicly non-stop killing with both thx to uber cooldowns. Mod 5 willl drop FoD for Delayed fireball. Fireball will be better because its massive dmg when u maximize, and wont be too sp costly like it is now.

Problem with FoD is its single target..

Weird will be THE spell to have once were high enough lvl.

Aspenor
08-31-2007, 08:33 AM
Weird will be THE spell to have once were high enough lvl.

Wail of the Banshee will technically outstrip Weird, if you take into account the number of saves allowed.

wiglin
08-31-2007, 11:09 AM
Weird could technically kill more mobs at once since their is not a cap on how many are effected as long as they are in the radius of the spell.

WotB has a cap of 1 mob per level, but effects a little wider area.

I guess it will depend on how Turbine implements the two spells. Although the necro line of spells is more effective overall, so my illusion based sorc will probably switch over to a necro based sorc come level 9 spells.

WotB
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: One living creature/level within a 40-ft.-radius spread

Weird:
Targets: Any number of creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart


What I like about PK now vs. FoD is that PK is cheaper with improved heighten , and it has a lower cooldown timer.

With a focus item and two focus feats my pk's land very reliably through elite settings.

MrWizard
08-31-2007, 11:39 AM
Answer:

Fighters have higher CON stats = higher FORT saves

Casters have higher WIS stats = higher WILL saves (if its an arcane caster, just check the saving throw progression for wizards/sorcs - better than a fighter for sure)

Spell pen does not factor into the equation unless mob has SR.

Spell pen is hugely important....drow are sr adn are everywhere...clerics cast it on themselves...flensers, reavers, and tons of mobs have them..

yea, I think it is a big difference for PK..

And the who con will.....well fighters have high con..so....clerics have high will..since both saves are needed, there should not be a big diff....

Orc rangers save more than fighters, dwarves of all kinds fall easily....fire giants easy, hill giants not so easy...

it is a little weird.....

jkm
08-31-2007, 11:47 AM
Spell pen is hugely important....drow are sr adn are everywhere...clerics cast it on themselves...flensers, reavers, and tons of mobs have them..

yea, I think it is a big difference for PK..

And the who con will.....well fighters have high con..so....clerics have high will..since both saves are needed, there should not be a big diff....

Orc rangers save more than fighters, dwarves of all kinds fall easily....fire giants easy, hill giants not so easy...

it is a little weird.....

in my experience, the ogre berserkers have higher will saves than the rangers, but lower fort saves. ogre rangers take forever to puncture to death.