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neilkjos
08-29-2007, 02:18 AM
My main toon is level 9 and has had lightening reflexes since the get-go and now I am really questioning what it really does for me. Is the reflex save really the vital? There are other feats that I could respec for. I never took Power Attack (I thought the -5 to hit wasn't worth it) or Toughness. In some of the favored builds last year they all took lightening reflexes.

Any help appreciated :)

Crabo
08-29-2007, 04:35 AM
It would really depend what class you were playing, and also what you were trying to do with the particular character. Having a bonus to your reflex save is always useful. The question is...is it more use to you than some other feat?
Maybe you could give us a little more information about your character and playstyle.

Roguewiz
08-29-2007, 07:49 AM
As Crabo stated (Is that you Caz?), it really depends on your class or playstyle. For example, if you are a high dex toon anyways (or Paladin), the need for an additional +2 reflex save is nominal at best.

Also, remember, that if it is a question of making saves on traps (and surviving), why not just wait the extra few seconds to have the trap disabled (if there is a Rogue with you).

Keep in mind, that alot of the spells that casters are using, may not have a save associated with them.
Ice Storm - No Save
Fireball - Save
Lightning Bolt - Save
Scorching Ray - No Save
Cometfall - Save
Flamestrike - Save
Frost ray, or whatever it is called - No Save
Searing Light - No Save (i believe)

The most common dmg spells cast by casters are the two "ray" spells. Both do not have saves associated with them. Also, the higher level you get, the more likely they will start casting Slay Living, Phantasmal Killer, and Finger of Death.

What class are you playing? Can you offset a low saves for resist spells, or, spells in general?

stockwizard5
08-29-2007, 07:59 AM
IMO Lightning Reflexes is a MUST HAVE for any character with Evasion and DEX < 34; a NICE TO HAVE for Evasion and DEX >= 34; USEFULL for Fighters/Hybrid Fighters (extra feats); and probably not worth it for anyone else.

Roguewiz
08-29-2007, 08:04 AM
IMO Lightning Reflexes is a MUST HAVE for any character with Evasion and DEX < 34; a NICE TO HAVE for Evasion and DEX >= 34; USEFULL for Fighters/Hybrid Fighters (extra feats); and probably not worth it for anyone else.

As a toon with Improved Evasion and 30 Reflex (before buffs), trust me, 30+ is overkill ;). I run around with +40 vs traps.

Also, you always fail on a 1.

The save you want to obtain to reliably make your reflex, is 22-25 roughly.

neilkjos
08-29-2007, 08:51 AM
Ok, he is 9th level fighter. Currently he has a 27 str, 14 dex and a 9 reflex save. I play with three other friends (fighter, wizard, and cleric). So I play a full DPS offensive toon. I hope that helps.

Roguewiz
08-29-2007, 09:30 AM
Ok, he is 9th level fighter. Currently he has a 27 str, 14 dex and a 9 reflex save. I play with three other friends (fighter, wizard, and cleric). So I play a full DPS offensive toon. I hope that helps.

Ah, Fighter. If you plan on going 14 Fighter, then you have more than enough feats to take Lightning Reflexes.

Best you can get (Before buffs)
4 Reflex = 14th Fighter
2 Reflex = Lightning Reflexes
5 Reflex = 20 Dex (if you come across a +6 dex item)
4 Reflex = +4 Resistance Item
15 Total Reflex

Crabo
08-29-2007, 12:38 PM
Ok, he is 9th level fighter. Currently he has a 27 str, 14 dex and a 9 reflex save. I play with three other friends (fighter, wizard, and cleric). So I play a full DPS offensive toon. I hope that helps.
If you are going full offensive , i dont think you will see a noticable difference if you took lightning reflexes. As we move into higher content, crowd control becomes more important and crowd control spells also become more powerful. You will find that on many occasions the mob casters have either been crowd controlled in some way or outright killed by the caster in your group. If they are still standing, they will be lucky to fire off one or two spells before you kill them yourself. Also as roguewiz said (/wave, yes its Caz), many damaging spells don't even have a save.
As a pure fighter, saves will never be your strong point. If anything , luck of heroes would be a better choice because it would give +1 saves across the board, but really i think there is other feats that you could either do more damage with (wep focus/wep spec/2 hander feats/powerattack) or have more fun with (stunning blow/imp trip). Powerattack is DEFINITELY worth playing around with , particularly if you use 2 handers, but even if you don't. I doubt i could ever make a melee character without powerattack after trying it for the first time.
Leave your saves where they are so the pallies at least have one thing to feel good about themselves ;)
PS: Never send a pally to do a fighters job.

smyter
08-29-2007, 02:14 PM
As a toon with Improved Evasion and 30 Reflex (before buffs), trust me, 30+ is overkill ;). I run around with +40 vs traps.

Also, you always fail on a 1.

The save you want to obtain to reliably make your reflex, is 22-25 roughly.

I run with 33 on my fighter 10/rogue4 and still get hit by traps on some GH quests on elite > than a roll of 1... and I have trap sense on top of that. I still get good saves, but 30 is not overkill.

Mad_Bombardier
08-29-2007, 03:11 PM
I run with 33 on my fighter 10/rogue4 and still get hit by traps on some GH quests on elite > than a roll of 1... and I have trap sense on top of that. I still get good saves, but 30 is not overkill.Agreed. I, too, notice a big difference on Elite trap save rate on my Ranger between unbuffed +24 Reflex save and buffed +28.

ErgonomicCat
08-29-2007, 04:41 PM
Ah, Fighter. If you plan on going 14 Fighter, then you have more than enough feats to take Lightning Reflexes.

Best you can get (Before buffs)
4 Reflex = 14th Fighter
2 Reflex = Lightning Reflexes
5 Reflex = 20 Dex (if you come across a +6 dex item)
4 Reflex = +4 Resistance Item
15 Total Reflex

I'd argue that you can do better than +2 reflex as a fighter.

Human Fighter 14 has 8 fighter feats, 6 normal.

14 feats total.

WF/WS/GWF/GWS - 4
Imp Crit/Power Crit - 2
Toughness - 1
Combat Expertise or Power Attack/Cleave or Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack or - 1/2/3
TWF/ITWF/GTWF or THF/GTHF or Shield Mastery, ISM, Shield Bash- 2/3

That's 10-13 feats based on your path. Most of those are key to doing what your fighter is doing - damage. If you're a tank, you can drop a few, but you'll probably want toughness again and maybe skill focus (intim). ;) So while the fighter gets 14, he's got maybe a couple to spare on "friviolous" things. And I'd argue that a +2 reflex is inferior to a few other things, like Stunning Blow.

If you go non human, it's one feat less. If you go warforged fighter, you're down to 11 feats, because you're getting Adamantium Body and Heavy Fort.

Roguewiz
08-29-2007, 04:52 PM
I run with 33 on my fighter 10/rogue4 and still get hit by traps on some GH quests on elite > than a roll of 1... and I have trap sense on top of that. I still get good saves, but 30 is not overkill.

Question I have, what kind of fighter are you? Most "melee" based NON-finesse fighters will have a hard time reaching that high of a reflex save.


I'd argue that you can do better than +2 reflex as a fighter.

Human Fighter 14 has 8 fighter feats, 6 normal.

14 feats total.

WF/WS/GWF/GWS - 4
Imp Crit/Power Crit - 2
Toughness - 1
Combat Expertise or Power Attack/Cleave or Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack or - 1/2/3
TWF/ITWF/GTWF or THF/GTHF or Shield Mastery, ISM, Shield Bash- 2/3

That's 10-13 feats based on your path. Most of those are key to doing what your fighter is doing - damage. If you're a tank, you can drop a few, but you'll probably want toughness again and maybe skill focus (intim). So while the fighter gets 14, he's got maybe a couple to spare on "friviolous" things. And I'd argue that a +2 reflex is inferior to a few other things, like Stunning Blow.

If you go non human, it's one feat less. If you go warforged fighter, you're down to 11 feats, because you're getting Adamantium Body and Heavy Fort.

You wont hear any arguement from me about how inferior Lightning Reflexes is when compared to the other feats you can take. I was just trying to be a positive voice in regards to his idea. ;) (happens every once in a while...rarely, like once in a blue moon and when pigs fly...that kinda thing)

I personally feel that all the "save" feats are a waste.

ErgonomicCat
08-29-2007, 05:47 PM
You wont hear any arguement from me about how inferior Lightning Reflexes is when compared to the other feats you can take. I was just trying to be a positive voice in regards to his idea. ;) (happens every once in a while...rarely, like once in a blue moon and when pigs fly...that kinda thing)

I personally feel that all the "save" feats are a waste.

You gotta tell it like it is, man! There is no room for softheartedness when you're optimizing a character!

Post hardcore to be hardcore!

Or something like that. ;)

And if you are considering a save feat, I'd pick Iron Will. Fighters have low will saves, and notoriously low wisdoms. Plus, will save targetting spells tend to be things like Dominate Person, whereas Reflex based spells are simply damage for the most part.

Average fighter is 8-10 wis, 12-14 dex. All things being equal, you need +2 will more than +2 reflex.

Aranticus
08-29-2007, 07:19 PM
Question I have, what kind of fighter are you? Most "melee" based NON-finesse fighters will have a hard time reaching that high of a reflex save.



You wont hear any arguement from me about how inferior Lightning Reflexes is when compared to the other feats you can take. I was just trying to be a positive voice in regards to his idea. ;) (happens every once in a while...rarely, like once in a blue moon and when pigs fly...that kinda thing)

I personally feel that all the "save" feats are a waste.

tell that to fighters who are consistently being commanded and held in high lvl quests. even with the bam helm, my ftr still gets commanded for like 30% of the time. a cc-ed tank = useless

Crabo
08-29-2007, 10:18 PM
tell that to fighters who are consistently being commanded and held in high lvl quests. even with the bam helm, my ftr still gets commanded for like 30% of the time. a cc-ed tank = useless

Better yet why dont you consider gearing your tank properley before you run off. Protection from evil , freedom of movement and spell resistance pretty much negate alot of the reasons for even having a will save.

As someone said, fighters will saves suck anyway , the difference of +8 to your roll or +10 to your roll is negligible on anything that is worth saving against.
As a pure damage fighter i say forget reflex saves, just wear resists and have enough hp to survive 1 or 2 big spells.....forget will saves and buff/gear yourself properley and your fort save is probably ok anyway.

Roguewiz
08-30-2007, 07:40 AM
Better yet why dont you consider gearing your tank properley before you run off. Protection from evil , freedom of movement and spell resistance pretty much negate alot of the reasons for even having a will save.

As someone said, fighters will saves suck anyway , the difference of +8 to your roll or +10 to your roll is negligible on anything that is worth saving against.
As a pure damage fighter i say forget reflex saves, just wear resists and have enough hp to survive 1 or 2 big spells.....forget will saves and buff/gear yourself properley and your fort save is probably ok anyway.

That poor nail was hit so good on the head, it is crushed for life now!

Basically, Crabo explained it 110% accurately. +2 to saves will not make much a difference in the long run.

Carry around the equipement for the occasion and switch out as necessary.

ErgonomicCat
08-30-2007, 08:37 AM
Better yet why dont you consider gearing your tank properley before you run off. Protection from evil , freedom of movement and spell resistance pretty much negate alot of the reasons for even having a will save.

As someone said, fighters will saves suck anyway , the difference of +8 to your roll or +10 to your roll is negligible on anything that is worth saving against.
As a pure damage fighter i say forget reflex saves, just wear resists and have enough hp to survive 1 or 2 big spells.....forget will saves and buff/gear yourself properley and your fort save is probably ok anyway.

That's really where I was going with it. ;)

If you're CC'ed 30% of the time, you're failing on a roll of 1-6 (kinda). If you increased your saves by 2, you're failing on a roll of 1-4, or 20% of the time. So Iron Will is a 10% resist in a lot of ways. That's okay, but not huge. And it's not what I'd bet on. I'm not gonna say that 10% reduction means I'm set. It's an incremental change....

To sum up:

Reflex: That's why god gave you HP.
Fort: If it's not horrific, you're not a fighter.
Will: Would be nice, but you're not gonna get it high enough, so compensate in other ways.

That's the optimization PoV, at least, imho, ymmv, tbd, ianal.

For permadeath, more solo, low cash, etc, it might be different.

Aranticus
08-30-2007, 09:28 AM
Better yet why dont you consider gearing your tank properley before you run off. Protection from evil , freedom of movement and spell resistance pretty much negate alot of the reasons for even having a will save.

As someone said, fighters will saves suck anyway , the difference of +8 to your roll or +10 to your roll is negligible on anything that is worth saving against.
As a pure damage fighter i say forget reflex saves, just wear resists and have enough hp to survive 1 or 2 big spells.....forget will saves and buff/gear yourself properley and your fort save is probably ok anyway.

i use the fragment of silver flame and carry a +5 heavy shield of SR 15. in case you do not know, fom does not help vs gtr command. my will save is +16. most of the time, i'm the only tank standing when a gtr command is thrown at the group. all coz i have the extra +2 to save. i usually charge straight for clerics, stunning or tripping them the 1st moment i can. i always wear on myself, a gtr fire resist cloak and the white dragon plate. i do not sting on self sufficiency and coz of that, i'm usually the last man standing. your tanks might be weak but i build mine to not only withstand damage but magical assualts as well

Aranticus
08-30-2007, 09:33 AM
That poor nail was hit so good on the head, it is crushed for life now!

Basically, Crabo explained it 110% accurately. +2 to saves will not make much a difference in the long run.

Carry around the equipement for the occasion and switch out as necessary.

nope, he was 110% wrong. Crabo did not bother to even find out the setup i have, the saves i got before commenting. check out ErgonomicCat's post. that is the reason why a +2 can be so useful. lightning reflex not so much for we can heal the damage take but a tank that is commanded, dominated is often the start of a wipe... unless the squishies really rock. in the beholder room in potp, i have more than my fair share of glory, surviving dominate, mindblast while charging towards the flayers, trip/stun them, then turn my attention onto kardin. this would not have been possible had i not build my ftr to be self functioning.

Crabo
08-30-2007, 10:19 AM
i use the fragment of silver flame and carry a +5 heavy shield of SR 15. in case you do not know, fom does not help vs gtr command. my will save is +16. most of the time, i'm the only tank standing when a gtr command is thrown at the group. all coz i have the extra +2 to save. i usually charge straight for clerics, stunning or tripping them the 1st moment i can. i always wear on myself, a gtr fire resist cloak and the white dragon plate. i do not sting on self sufficiency and coz of that, i'm usually the last man standing. your tanks might be weak but i build mine to not only withstand damage but magical assualts as well

You must be relatively new player or you would understand that SR15 in high level content is nearly worthless. Try getting a cleric to buff you with SR26 before you head down the caster tunnel in BAM next time bud, greater command becomes a thing of the past.It isn't your +2 will save that is allowing you to be the only one standing, it is the fact the party hasnt been buffed properley :)
I am not saying saves have no part in the game by any means , just trying to help the op with a decision. I have tried lightning reflexes and iron will on my fighter and noticed little difference , if you asked me to spec out greater 2 handed fighting for any save feat i would laugh for days about it.

Crabo
08-30-2007, 10:33 AM
nope, he was 110% wrong. Crabo did not bother to even find out the setup i have, the saves i got before commenting. check out ErgonomicCat's post. that is the reason why a +2 can be so useful. lightning reflex not so much for we can heal the damage take but a tank that is commanded, dominated is often the start of a wipe... unless the squishies really rock. in the beholder room in potp, i have more than my fair share of glory, surviving dominate, mindblast while charging towards the flayers, trip/stun them, then turn my attention onto kardin. this would not have been possible had i not build my ftr to be self functioning.

The reason i didnt need to ask about your setup was because a fighters saves could not get any worse than my fighters saves. Despite this, there is no content in the game that i havent been able to complete. Sure i have been held plenty of times...heavy fort negates any problems arising from that, i have been dominated (oops forgot to equip my fragment /give self uppercut) and i have been mindblasted (bah forgot to equip SR ring or they penetrated my SR). None of these things have ever caused any major problems in getting the dungeon completed.

If you are getting commanded 30% of the time going down the caster tunnel in BAM the i suggest that your willsave isnt all its cracked up to be . I know i have never been commanded 30% of the time going down there...is it possible that my 6 will save or 8 or whatever it is is better than your 16? No.
Is it possible you should try it with SR26 and realise that SR15 doesnt cut it anymore? Well thats up to you.

Roguewiz
08-30-2007, 10:44 AM
All it really comes down to is;
* Character build
* Equipment
* Luck of the dice.

High Charisma and Paladins levels make "save feats" a waste. Conversely, taking a "save feat" when your class has that save as the "good save", is also useless.

The biggest problem is, that most Fighters will have a crappy Wisdom on top of their crappy Will.

The problem I see is that with the direction DDO is heading, the devs will begin artificially inflating various things with mobs. Not only does this include their HP, damage, saves, and AC; this will also include their other stats which make it easier for them to land spells on you. Lets put it into perspective.

Lets say the DC to resist dominate is 25, and your Fighter's save is:
***This is based on the "average" min/maxed Fighter***

5 Base (14th Fighter)
1 Wis (8 Wis + 4 Item = 12 Wis = +1 Mod)
4 Resist Item
2 Feat
12 Will

65% of the time you will be dominated? Someone check my math, I've never been good with percentages. This is taking into consideration you have the wisdom item and the resist item. Just imagine what it would be if you didn't have the equipment.

Lets assume, that all "Cleric" NPCs 30 Wisdom.
Greater Command
10 base
10 Wisdom Mod
5 Spell level
= DC to resist 25 + Caster Level, not counting "inflated" modifiers.

As far as the resist check, I believe it is
10 + Casting Ability Mod + Caster Level + Spell level?

I don't play casters that much, so I can't remember.

Crabo
08-30-2007, 10:47 AM
All it really comes down to is;
* Character build
* Equipment
* Luck of the dice.

High Charisma and Paladins levels make "save feats" a waste. Conversely, taking a "save feat" when your class has that save as the "good save", is also useless.

The biggest problem is, that most Fighters will have a crappy Wisdom on top of their crappy Will.

The problem I see is that with the direction DDO is heading, the devs will begin artificially inflating various things with mobs. Not only does this include their HP, damage, saves, and AC; this will also include their other stats which make it easier for them to land spells on you. Lets put it into perspective.

Lets say the DC to resist dominate is 25, and your Fighter's save is:
***This is based on the "average" min/maxed Fighter***

5 Base (14th Fighter)
1 Wis (8 Wis + 4 Item = 12 Wis = +1 Mod)
4 Resist Item
2 Feat
12 Will

65% of the time you will be dominated? Someone check my math, I've never been good with percentages. This is taking into consideration you have the wisdom item and the resist item. Just imagine what it would be if you didn't have the equipment.

Lets assume, that all "Cleric" NPCs 30 Wisdom.
Greater Command
10 base
10 Wisdom Mod
5 Spell level
= DC to resist 25 + Caster Level, not counting "inflated" modifiers.

Dominate is a similiar resist check.

As far as the resist check, I believe it is
10 + Casting Ability Mod + Caster Level + Spell level?

I don't play casters that much, so I can't remember.

Haha dont know man, all i know is they sure dont seem to have spell penetration ;)

Roguewiz
08-30-2007, 10:50 AM
Haha dont know man, all i know is they sure dont seem to have spell penetration ;)

Thats why I have my nullcloth gown for Mindflayers and Beholders, 20SR is better than no SR after you get dispelled ;)

Crabo
08-30-2007, 11:00 AM
Thats why I have my nullcloth gown for Mindflayers and Beholders, 20SR is better than no SR after you get dispelled ;)

Yea i carry one on my ranger also. I doubt 20SR is enough for some elite flayers but it gives you a chance. If its only flayers on their own i will always ask a cleric for the good SR. I doubt alot of people even know that SR helps against mind stun at least it seems that way..i rarely hear people ask for SR. Maybe they dont need it cause they have awesome saves :)

Roguewiz
08-30-2007, 11:03 AM
Yea i carry one on my ranger also. I doubt 20SR is enough for some elite flayers but it gives you a chance. If its only flayers on their own i will always ask a cleric for the good SR. I doubt alot of people even know that SR helps against mind stun at least it seems that way..i rarely hear people ask for SR. Maybe they dont need it cause they have awesome saves :)

I've come to expect all buffs, and my usual Cleric knows that. Since he is usually 5 feet from me, I just throw something at him if he isn't listening.

I've got the Prot from Evil trinket and SR20. Now all I need is the Beholder optics and I'll be good to go. Nothing worse than making your save for disintergrate and still dying becaus 220hp > 209hp

I hate mindflayers with undying passion. They see me, go Mmmm....24 Cha, tastey. Then proceed to eat my brains out, or something like that.

Zenako
08-30-2007, 11:25 AM
On my cleric, Mass SR26 is a standard casting all the time, along with Mass Aid spell. (more for the HP buffer than the to hit boost). SR 26 can and does make a noticeable difference. Cuts down the ole healing bills a lot!

Jaysensen
08-30-2007, 12:47 PM
Okay, a lot of people have said things that are spot on and accurate, but I took Lightning Reflexes on my batman, and there is a world of difference with the value of the feat on an evasion and a non-evasion type. That being said, at the time I took it - Level 12 CAP - it was a great addition to my build. No Resist 4/5 existed. I flayered the feat once the cap hit 14 for Toughness.


I am also considering Lightning Reflexes on my evasion cleric. Why? Because I love running through traps as if they werent there. My saves are great for a cleric, but I dont like failing reflex saves at all. It isnt JUST level split... its item build also. If I had a Titan Visor (havent seen it drop) and a 5 Resist item (no slot), I wouldnt even consider picking up the feat.


Lightning Reflexes CAN be good - but its only good on certain builds. To the OP, because you dont have evasion, I would definitely say forget it and just buy Toughness or something fun.

Aranticus
08-30-2007, 06:33 PM
The reason i didnt need to ask about your setup was because a fighters saves could not get any worse than my fighters saves. Despite this, there is no content in the game that i havent been able to complete. Sure i have been held plenty of times...heavy fort negates any problems arising from that, i have been dominated (oops forgot to equip my fragment /give self uppercut) and i have been mindblasted (bah forgot to equip SR ring or they penetrated my SR). None of these things have ever caused any major problems in getting the dungeon completed.

If you are getting commanded 30% of the time going down the caster tunnel in BAM the i suggest that your willsave isnt all its cracked up to be . I know i have never been commanded 30% of the time going down there...is it possible that my 6 will save or 8 or whatever it is is better than your 16? No.
Is it possible you should try it with SR26 and realise that SR15 doesnt cut it anymore? Well thats up to you.

no i wasnt talking about BAM dwarves but potp dwarves. BAM's just an example of where clerics use gtr command. u cant get SR26 unless you get the clr to cast it and not all clr love to buff. i made my ftr to be a stand alone, i can solo my way up to the top of the giant skel in potp.

neilkjos
08-30-2007, 06:57 PM
Having read all of the threads I believe my decision will be to scrap both Lightening Reflexes and Iron Will and take Toughness, Stunning Blow, and/or Power Attack. It sounds that like they will be more useful as a non-evasion fighter.

Crabo
08-31-2007, 01:02 AM
no i wasnt talking about BAM dwarves but potp dwarves. BAM's just an example of where clerics use gtr command. u cant get SR26 unless you get the clr to cast it and not all clr love to buff. i made my ftr to be a stand alone, i can solo my way up to the top of the giant skel in potp.

The op stated that he normally played with a few friends, thus i attempted to give him the correct advice keeping this in mind. He didn't state that he wished to be solo champion of Stormreach. Sometimes it would seem that people use these threads to beat their chest rather than offer helpful advice.

If you are having difficulty getting the cleric to buff with SR , you are playing with the wrong clerics. Most that i play with are only too happy to provide buffs that will make their healing job easier.

Edit : sorry i thought you meant BAM, but to be honest POP is just as good an example. It is a ridiculously easy quest and one that less skilled players seem to frequent for that very reason.

Crabo
08-31-2007, 01:11 AM
Having read all of the threads I believe my decision will be to scrap both Lightening Reflexes and Iron Will and take Toughness, Stunning Blow, and/or Power Attack. It sounds that like they will be more useful as a non-evasion fighter.

Sounds like a good plan, and if you decide to take lightning reflexes back at some stage its no big deal to burn a shard and change it back in. Having said that you were an offensive DPS fighter i really think you should take a look at powerattack, particularly if you like seeing bigger numbers. Good luck and have fun :)

Roguewiz
08-31-2007, 11:41 AM
Having read all of the threads I believe my decision will be to scrap both Lightening Reflexes and Iron Will and take Toughness, Stunning Blow, and/or Power Attack. It sounds that like they will be more useful as a non-evasion fighter.

That is the best route IMO. I've haven't had the chance to use stunning blow, so I'm not sure on the effectiveness of it. I have, however, used Toughness and Power Attack. Power Attack is extremely useful, if not required, for Offensive Build tanks. Toughness should be taken by everyone, IMHO at least.

Also, don't forget about your Weapon Specilization feats as a fighter, and the Weapon Focus feats. Fighters can be an offensive powerhouse if built properly.

Tanka
08-31-2007, 12:34 PM
I would consider Iron Will to be useful, but my Will save sucks, so I do everything I can to bring it up. (Sits around 15ish when fully buffed.)

Stunning Blow is incredible with the right Enhancements. On my main, I sit at a DC27 Stun with no item (10 base + 10 (Str 30) + 7 (3 Dwarf + 4 Fighter)), and DC37 with the Tenderizer.

Power Attack is also worth it. I generally hit for around 120 on a crit from the Sword of Shadows -- well worth it all.

Aranticus
08-31-2007, 09:24 PM
The op stated that he normally played with a few friends, thus i attempted to give him the correct advice keeping this in mind. He didn't state that he wished to be solo champion of Stormreach. Sometimes it would seem that people use these threads to beat their chest rather than offer helpful advice.

If you are having difficulty getting the cleric to buff with SR , you are playing with the wrong clerics. Most that i play with are only too happy to provide buffs that will make their healing job easier.

Edit : sorry i thought you meant BAM, but to be honest POP is just as good an example. It is a ridiculously easy quest and one that less skilled players seem to frequent for that very reason.

i'm not beating my chest over here. so far you and Roguewiz are the only 2 who says iron will is useless, and Roguewiz plays part pally builds! it doesnt matter if he played with friends or pug or solo. the goal is to be an effective player. this is where many players fail to realise. look at all the threads where clerics complain about sp sponging tanks. there is no I in a team. everyone is part of it. each one has to be able to take care of themselves in one way or another.

i'm not sure if you pug but the quality of pug varies. i never demand any buffs from my clerics, if they give, i'll be there but will not insist that they play the way i want. in particularly bad quests i'll suggest but never demand. when i play my clr, i do give buffs, prot from evil, aid, SR n deathward if needed. this i do not only to help the team but also to impress upon any budding clerics the usefulness of the buffs

PS: in pop a good group will quickly learn to kill the cleric 1st. i've seen a particularly unlucky run where the casters missed their fod and the whole party got wiped. all due to the luck of rolls. the pally n the clr rolled 1 and the tanks were commanded (i was still on my way). 2 enemy clr n 2 archers... they were taken out fast. in such instances, iron will may have actually helped avoid the command (tanks did not take it) and help agro the mobs long enough to allow clr to come up

Crabo
09-01-2007, 04:12 AM
i'm not beating my chest over here. so far you and Roguewiz are the only 2 who says iron will is useless, and Roguewiz plays part pally builds! it doesnt matter if he played with friends or pug or solo. the goal is to be an effective player. this is where many players fail to realise. look at all the threads where clerics complain about sp sponging tanks. there is no I in a team. everyone is part of it. each one has to be able to take care of themselves in one way or another.

i'm not sure if you pug but the quality of pug varies. i never demand any buffs from my clerics, if they give, i'll be there but will not insist that they play the way i want. in particularly bad quests i'll suggest but never demand. when i play my clr, i do give buffs, prot from evil, aid, SR n deathward if needed. this i do not only to help the team but also to impress upon any budding clerics the usefulness of the buffs

PS: in pop a good group will quickly learn to kill the cleric 1st. i've seen a particularly unlucky run where the casters missed their fod and the whole party got wiped. all due to the luck of rolls. the pally n the clr rolled 1 and the tanks were commanded (i was still on my way). 2 enemy clr n 2 archers... they were taken out fast. in such instances, iron will may have actually helped avoid the command (tanks did not take it) and help agro the mobs long enough to allow clr to come up

The Sp sponging tanks you speak of are the ones that are not properley buffed /geared. This could be for various reasons, the 2 most common ones being that they didnt know what buffs they needed so didnt know to ask for them OR they asked for buffs and for some reason were not given. If i ask a cleric for SR or any other buff, i ask nicely and i expect to be either buffed or told that they dont carry the spell. I will not move my stumpy dwarven legs until one of those 2 things happen.

If you are playing with people that refuse to cast their class buffs this is your own problem. ...but it doesnt surprise me if your whole party wipes in PoP while they wait for you to get there to solo the dungeon for them.

Like i said before , i was trying to help the OP out with group play in mind. He wasnt telling us that his his friends were inept and he needed to be able to solo everything while they watched.
From the start my intention has been to help the OP. From the start your intention has been to justify your build.

Shade
09-01-2007, 08:44 AM
Would say only take it on a character with a moderate reflex save, and one with feats to spare, ie a fighter with 10-16 starting dex. Starting higher and its mostly unnessary..
Starting lower and your reflex sucks too much either way.

Definetely not nessary a character with insane dex like 34. Also not needed on a barbiaran as they have too few feats to spare and decent reflex with uncanny dodge.

Wizard perhaps, one that is more rounded and goes for a bit of AC and such, as they get some bonus feats to help round there character out.

Aranticus
09-01-2007, 09:27 PM
The Sp sponging tanks you speak of are the ones that are not properley buffed /geared. This could be for various reasons, the 2 most common ones being that they didnt know what buffs they needed so didnt know to ask for them OR they asked for buffs and for some reason were not given. If i ask a cleric for SR or any other buff, i ask nicely and i expect to be either buffed or told that they dont carry the spell. I will not move my stumpy dwarven legs until one of those 2 things happen.

If you are playing with people that refuse to cast their class buffs this is your own problem. ...but it doesnt surprise me if your whole party wipes in PoP while they wait for you to get there to solo the dungeon for them.

Like i said before , i was trying to help the OP out with group play in mind. He wasnt telling us that his his friends were inept and he needed to be able to solo everything while they watched.
From the start my intention has been to help the OP. From the start your intention has been to justify your build.

lol good stuff there. both us are trying to help him. u dun like save feats, i like iron will. i gave example of when it'll be useful etc u REFUSED to accept it. no need bait, i dun troll. tata i'm out of here