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Bizbag
08-28-2007, 09:49 PM
The prevailing, most common opinion concerning arcane spellcasters in this game is that Sorcerers are better than Wizards. There are many arguments coming from both sides of the issue, but one of the most prevalent arguments out there is the Sorcerer's spellcasting speed.

You can compare the sorcerer's extra SP to the wizard's spell selection all you like, but the fact is that a sorcerer can fire off two Fingers of Death where a wizard can fire off one due to halved cooldowns, and on top of that, they get interrupted far less often because they're spending half the time actually casting the spells!

This is a blatantly unfair advantage given to Sorcerers with no legitimate reason. It have absolutely no basis in PnP, where Sorcerers were allowed 1 spell per round like everyone else, and not two spells per round.

On top of that, you can't even make a logical argument for it. If a Sorcerer gets decreased cast time because he is a 'natural' spellcaster, then why do bards get the slow cast animation and cooldowns?

Slow down the Sorcerer's cooldowns and cast time! It's time Wizards and Sorcerers were just as good as one another, just as they should be! One should not be clearly better than the other!

Arnya
08-28-2007, 09:58 PM
Go away!!

This is the benefit of sorc over wiz.

Wiz gets spell selection and more slots; sorc gets more SP and fast cast.

Please don't ask for basic game mechanics to change when everyone is bleeding for new content.

If you don't like it, roll a sorc.

Affront
08-28-2007, 10:06 PM
I totally disagree. Wizards and sorcerors are different. The most obvious difference being the selection of spells - wizards can have more spells memorized and can easily change them out.

How many level seven spells does your average sorceror get? My wizard has two more (& they are all useful :) ).

McSurlykins
08-28-2007, 10:07 PM
fo real lol....i dont want the concentration to be on this rather than making new content....peeps need to stop requesting for gimping of classes :( btw play a wiz and a sorc....and both equally useful , just in diffrent areas

Aesop
08-28-2007, 10:10 PM
I'd perfer they just add more spells tat are useful...then wizards will get more love

Aesop

Cowdenicus
08-28-2007, 10:17 PM
Wizzies need to nerfed because they get way more feats than sorcerors. It is not fair.

Lithic
08-28-2007, 10:17 PM
I'd perfer they just add more spells tat are useful...then wizards will get more love

Aesop

QFT

Nice thing about PnP is there was an easy system of spell research, so just because a spell isnt in the players handbook doesnt mean you can't make it up.

Even minor spell changes like element swapping would make wizards that much better. Sonic-ball? Freezing-ray? melfs electric shock? I can find a use for most of those :D

And what i wouldnt give for a finger of death that kills undead (toe of life maybe?) hehe.

Bizbag
08-28-2007, 10:20 PM
Go away!!

This is possibly the most mature argument I have ever read.

I don't think I denied that the fast spellcasting was an advantage. I'm saying it's an unfair advantage that makes Sorcerers disproportionately more powerful than Wizards.

Because it seems to matter to those who posted, I have played both a wizard and a sorcerer, and not only that, but my guild has been holding an ongoing discussion and comparison of the two classes, and in every case of people playing both, they favor sorcerers, simply because of the cast times and cooldowns. The magic missile spamming, the Death Effects thrown around, the Firewalls quickly lain, every single one prefers the Sorcerer.

The faster casting completely outweighs the extra spells their wizards get. With the exception of level 7 spells, and to a lesser extent, level 6 spells, sorcerers get enough spells to cover the useful ones, and a wizard finds himself filling holes in his spellbook with spells he might use once in a while.

Also, what happens when we get another level cap raise? When that happens, Sorcerers will get their second level 7 spell, allowing them both of the most common and useful level 7 spells - FoD and Otto's Sphere of Dancing. They'll only get 1 level 8 spell, but what about when we hit level 20? This is pure speculation, but I highly doubt there will be more than 3 extremely useful spells that no sorcerer should be without, and they'll get them all. At that point, there will be absolutely NO reason to play a wizard, because his only advantage left to him will be void.

Sorcerers should get this unfair power reduced. Yes, I'm calling for a reduction in Sorcerer power. Some people call it a 'nerf', but I believe it would make the game better. Think about it - I was advised by the first response by this thread that if I didn't like how one class was blatantly more powerful than another, I should just play the more powerful class. When one ability or power is so good that you can't imagine a player NOT picking it over another choice, it's too powerful and needs to be fixed. Why did evasion get changed? Because taking two levels of rogue was ALWAYS better than two levels of your primary class.

Aesop
08-28-2007, 10:21 PM
QFT

Nice thing about PnP is there was an easy system of spell research, so just because a spell isnt in the players handbook doesnt mean you can't make it up.

Even minor spell changes like element swapping would make wizards that much better. Sonic-ball? Freezing-ray? melfs electric shock? I can find a use for most of those :D

And what i wouldnt give for a finger of death that kills undead (toe of life maybe?) hehe.

Actually that is a good Feat that I wish they'd add


Energy Substitution (one elemental type)
and
Energy Admixture (same elemental type as Substitution)

one of the Wizards Benefits is the plethora of Feats available ... well give us more spells and more Feats and then Wizzies would be the bomb ;)

Aesop

Harbinder
08-28-2007, 10:25 PM
I totally disagree. Wizards and sorcerors are different. The most obvious difference being the selection of spells - wizards can have more spells memorized and can easily change them out.

How many level seven spells does your average sorceror get? My wizard has two more (& they are all useful :) ).
Wizards are the only class that can learn every arcane spell in the game.

Bizbag
08-28-2007, 10:27 PM
Wizzies need to nerfed because they get way more feats than sorcerors. It is not fair.

The fact that Wizards get more feats than Sorcerers is taken directly from the Player's Handbook. What I am calling for is the elimination of an advantage given to sorcerers that isn't based on the Player's Handbook.

Jarlaxel
08-28-2007, 10:31 PM
The prevailing, most common opinion concerning arcane spellcasters in this game is that Sorcerers are better than Wizards. There are many arguments coming from both sides of the issue, but one of the most prevalent arguments out there is the Sorcerer's spellcasting speed.

You can compare the sorcerer's extra SP to the wizard's spell selection all you like, but the fact is that a sorcerer can fire off two Fingers of Death where a wizard can fire off one due to halved cooldowns, and on top of that, they get interrupted far less often because they're spending half the time actually casting the spells!

This is a blatantly unfair advantage given to Sorcerers with no legitimate reason. It have absolutely no basis in PnP, where Sorcerers were allowed 1 spell per round like everyone else, and not two spells per round.

On top of that, you can't even make a logical argument for it. If a Sorcerer gets decreased cast time because he is a 'natural' spellcaster, then why do bards get the slow cast animation and cooldowns?

Slow down the Sorcerer's cooldowns and cast time! It's time Wizards and Sorcerers were just as good as one another, just as they should be! One should not be clearly better than the other!

Sorcerers are not better than wizards. Wizards have more versatility with spells and get bonus feats. To trade out the majority of sorcerer spells it costs 10k plat and have to wait three days. + wizards get a ton more spells than sorcerers. There are a lot of spells I would love to have as a sorcerer but can't fit them into my selections. Correct me if i am wrong but I believe wizards get more than 1 lvl 7 spell. I view wizards as having a slighty different role than sorcerers. Sorcerers are suppose to be the gunslingers of casting. Wizards play a different but just as effective role. I have a friend who hates playing a sorcerer for the reasons I mentioned above. He loves playing his wizard.

So sure put up another ranting post about the inbalance between sorcerers and wizards. When the devs nerf the sorcerers because to many people are whinning/complaining about how they think life isnt fair then I hope your satisfied. While your at it why not complain about the unfair advantages dwarfs have as fighters. Or the under developed paladin. When a more simple solution would be to accept it :) and roll a sorcerer yourself and enjoy the benifits YOU THINK you lack in your wizard.
Tired of reading these sorcerer's unfairness ranting posts.

Dariun
08-28-2007, 10:32 PM
I hate this idea. And that's not just the gin talking.

Bizbag
08-28-2007, 10:34 PM
When a more simple solution would be to accept it :) and roll a sorcerer yourself and enjoy the benifits YOU THINK you lack in your wizard.

It's a simple solution to simply accept something you believe is unfair and should be changed? It's simple, yes, but I don't believe it's the right solution.

Richard_the_Lion
08-28-2007, 10:37 PM
Sorcerers are suppose to be the gunslingers of casting. .

You just nailed the difference between sorcs and wizzies. Sorcerers are gunslingers, cowboys of the DDO world. Wizards are studious types that have to think about what spell is best for the situation, sorcerers just cast it. There is room for both types and certain quests are better suited for one or the other. This is coming from a sorc that has Otto's for the 7th level spell.

smodge13
08-28-2007, 10:37 PM
wizards get bonus feats, use one of those feats for quicken spell, then your wizard is still 2 bonus feats up AND has the faster cast rate, stop complaining, its a fair exchange.

Turial
08-28-2007, 10:44 PM
Wizzies need to nerfed because they get way more feats than sorcerors. It is not fair.

lol

Auran82
08-28-2007, 10:53 PM
The fact that Wizards get more feats than Sorcerers is taken directly from the Player's Handbook. What I am calling for is the elimination of an advantage given to sorcerers that isn't based on the Player's Handbook.

Why do people pick and choose what stuff from the PHB they want implemented?

Last I checked, Wizards weren't spontaneous casters either, do you want that implemented too?

Both classes play different roles, no need to make one worse just to make yout feel they are even.

Arnya
08-28-2007, 11:04 PM
Go away, now?

Seriously dude just go play the game and if you don't want to play sorc don't. But leave other sorcs alone.

One more class nerf and soooo many of US will go away.

And then you will have no sorc to drag your soft, bespectacled arse thru PoP...

Lorien_the_First_One
08-28-2007, 11:08 PM
The fact that Wizards get more feats than Sorcerers is taken directly from the Player's Handbook. What I am calling for is the elimination of an advantage given to sorcerers that isn't based on the Player's Handbook.

Great, so I guess you want to switch to spell slots instead of SP like the players handbook? In that case I'm all for your brilliant idea.

ericacek
08-29-2007, 12:08 AM
The prevailing, most common opinion concerning arcane spellcasters in this game is that Sorcerers are better than Wizards. There are many arguments coming from both sides of the issue, but one of the most prevalent arguments out there is the Sorcerer's spellcasting speed.

You can compare the sorcerer's extra SP to the wizard's spell selection all you like, but the fact is that a sorcerer can fire off two Fingers of Death where a wizard can fire off one due to halved cooldowns, and on top of that, they get interrupted far less often because they're spending half the time actually casting the spells!

This is a blatantly unfair advantage given to Sorcerers with no legitimate reason. It have absolutely no basis in PnP, where Sorcerers were allowed 1 spell per round like everyone else, and not two spells per round.

On top of that, you can't even make a logical argument for it. If a Sorcerer gets decreased cast time because he is a 'natural' spellcaster, then why do bards get the slow cast animation and cooldowns?

Slow down the Sorcerer's cooldowns and cast time! It's time Wizards and Sorcerers were just as good as one another, just as they should be! One should not be clearly better than the other!

I have 4 arcanes, 3 maxed, 3 sorcs and a wizard, i just currently started playing my wizard more cause he is fun, swopped 2 feats out and got him better gear. In a different way than the sorcs, the versatility is quiet nice.

FoD, mass hold and Ottos all loaded at once, i'm not complaining.

1 generic nuker/DC human sorc, 1 enhancement specced drow sorc and 1 WF sorc - Direct damage/reconstruct/repair specced WF party insane support Reconstruct unit ;).

And see i had to roll 3 sorcs who are insanely good at what they do best but my 1 wizi can do any of it as well with just a swop of few spells. The only downside is less SP, the slower casting plays a role as well but can be almost eliminated by playing smart.

My wizard has 4 spell focus schools - 2 enhancement 1 illusion 1 necro and while there will be quests where my edgy specced sorcs won't do that well the wizard will. On the other hand he can't compete with my enhancement specced drow who has mass hold as 7th lvl and goes have fun in Elite Cabal dualweilding thundering heavy picks of puncturing with charmed army on his side.

Btw 2 best 7th spells are #1 mass hold #2 Fod and only than Ottos, in my book. # 2 FoD because you can use Heighten and Flesh to Stone for fort saves instead and heightened PK which you can cast faster than FoD for insta kills. My 2 capped sorcs have both mass hold no FoD and the 3rd is only 10 now.

lostinjapan
08-29-2007, 12:11 AM
I have a sorcerer and a wizard both....

In complete disagreement with the OP.

Mirta
08-29-2007, 12:27 AM
The prevailing, most common opinion concerning arcane spellcasters in this game is that Sorcerers are better than Wizards. There are many arguments coming from both sides of the issue, but one of the most prevalent arguments out there is the Sorcerer's spellcasting speed.

You can compare the sorcerer's extra SP to the wizard's spell selection all you like, but the fact is that a sorcerer can fire off two Fingers of Death where a wizard can fire off one due to halved cooldowns, and on top of that, they get interrupted far less often because they're spending half the time actually casting the spells!

This is a blatantly unfair advantage given to Sorcerers with no legitimate reason. It have absolutely no basis in PnP, where Sorcerers were allowed 1 spell per round like everyone else, and not two spells per round.

On top of that, you can't even make a logical argument for it. If a Sorcerer gets decreased cast time because he is a 'natural' spellcaster, then why do bards get the slow cast animation and cooldowns?

Slow down the Sorcerer's cooldowns and cast time! It's time Wizards and Sorcerers were just as good as one another, just as they should be! One should not be clearly better than the other!

Please, shut your friggin pie hole and stop trying to ruin the game for other people. :eek:

If you're jealous of sorcs then just make one :rolleyes:

Mhykke
08-29-2007, 12:50 AM
The prevailing, most common opinion concerning arcane spellcasters in this game is that Sorcerers are better than Wizards. There are many arguments coming from both sides of the issue, but one of the most prevalent arguments out there is the Sorcerer's spellcasting speed.

You can compare the sorcerer's extra SP to the wizard's spell selection all you like, but the fact is that a sorcerer can fire off two Fingers of Death where a wizard can fire off one due to halved cooldowns, and on top of that, they get interrupted far less often because they're spending half the time actually casting the spells!

This is a blatantly unfair advantage given to Sorcerers with no legitimate reason. It have absolutely no basis in PnP, where Sorcerers were allowed 1 spell per round like everyone else, and not two spells per round.

On top of that, you can't even make a logical argument for it. If a Sorcerer gets decreased cast time because he is a 'natural' spellcaster, then why do bards get the slow cast animation and cooldowns?

Slow down the Sorcerer's cooldowns and cast time! It's time Wizards and Sorcerers were just as good as one another, just as they should be! One should not be clearly better than the other!


Ridiculous post.

1. Please stop calling for nerfs to player classes.
2. Wizards get a lot more skill points
3. Wizards get a lot more feats
4. Wizards have every single spell available to them.
5. As was mentioned earlier, are wizards a spontaneous casting class in PnP, since you bring up PnP?
6. You must play w/ some real weak wizards. While there are some great sorcs out there, there's also plenty of great wizards. In the hands of skillful players, neither class blows the other out of the water.

You ask what happens w/ the lvl increase, when sorcs get a 2nd lvl 7 spell. Why do you stop there? Maybe b/c it only shows half the picture, the half that supports your argument. How about finishing the thought. At lvl increase, wizards will get lvl 8th spells right away, sorcerers will have to wait until lvl 16 to get that lvl 8 spell. Oh, and, there will be a lot more spells (a whole other lvl) and so wizards will have even more spells at their disposal.

Again, ridiculous post, just stop it.

Cowdenicus
08-29-2007, 01:36 AM
I think they should slow down sorcerors casting and recasts only if they make wizards go from the sp system to the slot system.

Now that would be fair.

xberto
08-29-2007, 01:48 AM
Sorc's are just the flavor of the day so there is no sense in crying about how over-powered they are. It won't be long and all the sorc's will be crying foul because they've been nerfed, and pleading for respec, so let them have their fun.

GeneralDiomedes
08-29-2007, 01:48 AM
The fact that Wizards get more feats than Sorcerers is taken directly from the Player's Handbook. What I am calling for is the elimination of an advantage given to sorcerers that isn't based on the Player's Handbook.

Hmm .. my DDO Sorcerer can only know 4 spells maximum per level. Looks like that isn't in the PHB either.

jaitee
08-29-2007, 05:32 AM
lol another one of these posts,

nothing left to say every poster in here already shot you down about 100 times, with valid reasons

but all i have to say is how about enjoy what kind of class you made and instead of worrying to death about how good the sorc next to you in pop is? or how about stop thinking if the sorc next to you will land his PK before you will?

Memnir
08-29-2007, 05:47 AM
I'm gonna have to go with "No" on this one.

Let me put it this way:
When I play my Wizard, I miss the fast-casting and massive pool of spellpoints I enjoy with my Sorcerer
When I play my Sorcerer, I miss the versatility, extra spell slots, and extra meta-magic feats I enjoy with my Wizard.


They are differant classes - and as such need more than just a cosmetic class logo to make them distinctive and seperate. The fast-casting was added to make them functionaly differant - and I like that. A Wiz plays differantly from a Sorc, and if they took that away it'd not only cripple Sorcerers - it'd erode the differance between the classes.

Yeah - going with "No" on this one for sure...

Pyromaniac
08-29-2007, 05:52 AM
If we're making changes, lets make all wizards memorize their spells and need real time to do it :)

Oran_Lathor
08-29-2007, 06:45 AM
Sorry, not signing this either. Wizards and sorcerors are well balanced as is.

BUpcott
08-29-2007, 06:51 AM
This idea is right up there with Dingo's lets make the cure wounds series of spells cost 0 sp.

/so not signed

Cowdenicus
08-29-2007, 07:02 AM
This idea is right up there with Dingo's lets make the cure wounds series of spells cost 0 sp.

/so not signed

QFT

llevenbaxx
08-29-2007, 07:11 AM
How can you put fast casting and some more spell points up against the fact that wizards can now cast like PnP sorcerers? Wizards can cast whatever spells they have studied however many times they want(sp dependant obviously;)). They are like PnP sorcys with a hugely expanded spells per level(that can be switched while resting).

Casting as a wizard isnt about spamming the same spell over and over, its about casting different spells in chains to acheive a sort of fast casting. Add to that there is a much more likily chance that a wizzy is going to have that just right spell for any given situation. Advantage wizard imho.:)

Sue_Dark
08-29-2007, 07:14 AM
The prevailing, most common opinion concerning arcane spellcasters in this game is that Sorcerers are better than Wizards. There are many arguments coming from both sides of the issue, but one of the most prevalent arguments out there is the Sorcerer's spellcasting speed.

You can compare the sorcerer's extra SP to the wizard's spell selection all you like, but the fact is that a sorcerer can fire off two Fingers of Death where a wizard can fire off one due to halved cooldowns, and on top of that, they get interrupted far less often because they're spending half the time actually casting the spells!

This is a blatantly unfair advantage given to Sorcerers with no legitimate reason. It have absolutely no basis in PnP, where Sorcerers were allowed 1 spell per round like everyone else, and not two spells per round.

On top of that, you can't even make a logical argument for it. If a Sorcerer gets decreased cast time because he is a 'natural' spellcaster, then why do bards get the slow cast animation and cooldowns?

Slow down the Sorcerer's cooldowns and cast time! It's time Wizards and Sorcerers were just as good as one another, just as they should be! One should not be clearly better than the other!

Wah! My wizzy cant keep up with his/her Sorc... they must be changed so that I can keep up...

Go tell someone who cares!

Mercules
08-29-2007, 07:23 AM
Wizards get:
The ability to change around spells.
MORE SPELLS

Sorcerers get:
Faster casting
more SPs.

teddok
08-29-2007, 07:25 AM
The prevailing, most common opinion concerning arcane spellcasters in this game is that Sorcerers are better than Wizards. There are many arguments coming from both sides of the issue, but one of the most prevalent arguments out there is the Sorcerer's spellcasting speed.

You can compare the sorcerer's extra SP to the wizard's spell selection all you like, but the fact is that a sorcerer can fire off two Fingers of Death where a wizard can fire off one due to halved cooldowns, and on top of that, they get interrupted far less often because they're spending half the time actually casting the spells!

This is a blatantly unfair advantage given to Sorcerers with no legitimate reason. It have absolutely no basis in PnP, where Sorcerers were allowed 1 spell per round like everyone else, and not two spells per round.

On top of that, you can't even make a logical argument for it. If a Sorcerer gets decreased cast time because he is a 'natural' spellcaster, then why do bards get the slow cast animation and cooldowns?

Slow down the Sorcerer's cooldowns and cast time! It's time Wizards and Sorcerers were just as good as one another, just as they should be! One should not be clearly better than the other!

Sorry Wizards and Sorcs are very equal. I mean Sorc's cast twice as fast but only have a few spells. They have More spell points but are a lower caster lvl. A wizard can cast any arcane spell in the game can swap em out at any rest, and have a higher caster lvl. I dont think that Sorc are over powered. I belive that they are Fairly equal.

teddok
08-29-2007, 07:30 AM
This idea is right up there with Dingo's lets make the cure wounds series of spells cost 0 sp.

/so not signed

Ohh my god you are so right. I wonder if this is one of Dingo's alts.

Deragoth
08-29-2007, 07:38 AM
Bad idea. Wizards and Sorcs are just fine.

Strakeln
08-29-2007, 08:11 AM
Not for nothing, but we already ate a cooldown nerf once. Go away before you start screwing up one of the few classes that are working as they should.

negative
08-29-2007, 09:34 AM
Well, speaking as a Wizard, since I hardly ever need to cast more than a single spell per encounter, all I see that the Sorc's fast casting does is let silly casters waste all their SP on inefficient spells.:D

Charmazal
08-29-2007, 10:31 AM
Ok - I agree with the OP if you give us an additional 25% to 50% spell point boost on top of what we already have.

I think the reason wizards get jealous is because there's such a low supply of useful spells. However as more spells get added, sorcerers will still only have the same amount known at a time.

Fortunately at lot of the threads that happen on the board do not get considered seriously, and I hope that this is one such thread.

Gandalfs_Ghost
08-29-2007, 11:31 AM
OP: I believe "go away" is more of a request than an arguement.
Or an order if you like.
A command even.
A lot of the other posts though, those were arguements.

Venjamin
08-29-2007, 11:52 AM
Done well, a wizard should be able to go toe to toe with any sorcerer. That's the inherent problem, the wizard is obviously not working to his full advantage. It's like a political campaign, ignoring his own shortcomings and blaming it on his class versus the class of another.

Sorcerers need the fast casting to balance out how pointless they would be without it. If you got rid of the fast casting, no one... and I mean NO ONE would play a sorcerer, because if they cast at the same rate, they'd be trading the versatility for SP, and no one would do that.

Wizards get the versatility.

Sorcerers get the speed.

That's how it is, and that's how it should stay.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-29-2007, 11:54 AM
Done well, a wizard should be able to go toe to toe with any sorcerer. That's the inherent problem, the wizard is obviously not working to his full advantage. It's like a political campaign, ignoring his own shortcomings and blaming it on his class versus the class of another.

Sorcerers need the fast casting to balance out how pointless they would be without it. If you got rid of the fast casting, no one... and I mean NO ONE would play a sorcerer, because if they cast at the same rate, they'd be trading the versatility for SP, and no one would do that.

Wizards get the versatility.

Sorcerers get the speed.

That's how it is, and that's how it should stay.


Wizards are a multi-function tool kit.

Sorcerers are a machine gun.

Both are useful, both have their place, both can get the job done in their own way.

HumanJHawkins
08-29-2007, 11:58 AM
<CUT>Slow down the Sorcerer's cooldowns and cast time! It's time Wizards and Sorcerers were just as good as one another, just as they should be! One should not be clearly better than the other!

Dude. Just because you don't know how fo play a Wizard effectively is no reason to nerf another whole class.

I am on my third Sorcerer... Rerolled the first two because they sucked. It was a learning experience. So don't come on here and start asking for me to get nerfed just when I finally have something usable.

If you think a particular class is overpowered, get a piece of paper and start keeping track of how many times the different classes you play with die. I can almost guarantee you that Sorcerers will be at the top of your list. They are definitely NOT overpowered.

Alexander_Illusioni
08-29-2007, 12:01 PM
The real issue seems to be that at each spell level there are really only 4 "useful" spells the way DDO is currently. Yes, someone can point out a few situations where a particular spell would be nice to have, but those situations can be handled with scrolls generally. Therefore, the assumed disadvantage of a sorcerer (less spells to memorize and the lack of being able to switch them out easily) really does not exist. This is more of a lack of useful spells than anything else. Only way I can see this improving is to make more useful high level spells.

Draclaud
08-29-2007, 12:18 PM
The prevailing, most common opinion concerning arcane spellcasters in this game is that Sorcerers are better than Wizards. There are many arguments coming from both sides of the issue, but one of the most prevalent arguments out there is the Sorcerer's spellcasting speed.

You can compare the sorcerer's extra SP to the wizard's spell selection all you like, but the fact is that a sorcerer can fire off two Fingers of Death where a wizard can fire off one due to halved cooldowns, and on top of that, they get interrupted far less often because they're spending half the time actually casting the spells!

This is a blatantly unfair advantage given to Sorcerers with no legitimate reason. It have absolutely no basis in PnP, where Sorcerers were allowed 1 spell per round like everyone else, and not two spells per round.

On top of that, you can't even make a logical argument for it. If a Sorcerer gets decreased cast time because he is a 'natural' spellcaster, then why do bards get the slow cast animation and cooldowns?

Slow down the Sorcerer's cooldowns and cast time! It's time Wizards and Sorcerers were just as good as one another, just as they should be! One should not be clearly better than the other!

Dude, get a grip, It is what it is, and if you have a problem with it roll a Sorc. It seems everytime I hear the "Nerf Bat crowd" it's basically Waaaaah Some one has a beter character than I do Waaaaah Someone please nerf them, so my character won't stink as bad...Good Golly man reroll an effective char if it bothers you so much.

DagazUlf
08-29-2007, 12:24 PM
This idea is right up there with Dingo's lets make the cure wounds series of spells cost 0 sp.

/so not signed

LOL

Protagoras
08-29-2007, 01:13 PM
I'd perfer they just add more spells tat are useful...then wizards will get more love

Aesop

Wow.

I have chewed on this alot.. and that Aesop is a fable that is a perfect solution to this problem. If there wasn't such a 'short-list' of useful spells wizards would regain parity with Sorcerors.. Bravo ma'am.

Protagoras
08-29-2007, 01:22 PM
Hmm .. my DDO Sorcerer can only know 4 spells maximum per level. Looks like that isn't in the PHB either.

Actually its pretty close to that in the PHB.

clickie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer)

Rastawiz
08-29-2007, 01:29 PM
I have posted this in so many of wiz/sorc threads, I feel like a broken record.

In order to balance the 2 classes you need to fix the utility of all the spells that are for the most part worthless. And add alot more of the spells from the PHB. I know turbine has done some of this but the process could use a boost.

For example, jump was a worthless spell for the most part. When they fixed it, everyone wanted it all the time. Scorching ray was a joke, they improved it and now everyone loves. If alot more spells were like this, then there would be no complaint from the wizards.

Protagoras
08-29-2007, 01:35 PM
How can you put fast casting and some more spell points up against the fact that wizards can now cast like PnP sorcerers? Wizards can cast whatever spells they have studied however many times they want(sp dependant obviously;)). They are like PnP sorcys with a hugely expanded spells per level(that can be switched while resting).


Actually lets be reasonable about this shall we!

I am NOT saying I am behind the OP. I don't know, BUT

Wizards are NOT being able to cast like Sorc in PnP and Sorc aren't either.

Neither is being limited to a number of specific spells per level to cast, but rather are using a 'Mana' system.

If BOTH casters used the true PnP system they would be horribly reduced in power. And you could just about forget using MetaMagic with Sorc. at all if you went PnP as your casting times would become Horrid.

Anyway I think something needs to be done to make Wizards a LITTLE better.. I actually really Like Aesop's suggestion of MORE useful spells... I am also looking forward to a possible scribe scroll feat :)

Bizbag
08-29-2007, 01:44 PM
After reading the posts in this thread, I'm convinced I was wrong to suggest that sorcerers' spellcasting should be slowed. In PnP, Wizards could not freely pick any spell they had prepared and cast it; only a sorcerer could do that. The Spell Point removed this advantage from the sorcerer, so in compensation, they cast faster and have faster cooldowns to compensate.

However, I do still think there is imbalance between the two classes. I think Aesop's point is very true; there are too few useful spells of any given level, meaning a sorcerer can usually have most or all of them (currently level 6 and 7spells are an exception). Perhaps what we need is to increase the usefulness of existing spells and add more spells to the game, so that a wizard's versatility will be more important.

Protagoras
08-29-2007, 01:47 PM
After reading the posts in this thread, I'm convinced I was wrong to suggest that sorcerers' spellcasting should be slowed. In PnP, Wizards could not freely pick any spell they had prepared and cast it; only a sorcerer could do that. The Spell Point removed this advantage from the sorcerer, so in compensation, they cast faster and have faster cooldowns to compensate.

However, I do still think there is imbalance between the two classes. I think Aesop's point is very true; there are too few useful spells of any given level, meaning a sorcerer can usually have most or all of them (currently level 6 and 7spells are an exception). Perhaps what we need is to increase the usefulness of existing spells and add more spells to the game, so that a wizard's versatility will be more important.

Yeah I think so. That would be an elegant fix. Sorcerors are more popular currently, and have an edge in power. If there spell choice was a REAL hard one to make (i.e. many more useful spells) then wizards would become more viable as a class choice, and nobody has to be nerfed. Oh and I would still want a 'scribe scroll' feat.. and yes I know I am being greedy

BUpcott
08-29-2007, 01:56 PM
After reading the posts in this thread, I'm convinced I was wrong to suggest that sorcerers' spellcasting should be slowed. In PnP, Wizards could not freely pick any spell they had prepared and cast it; only a sorcerer could do that. The Spell Point removed this advantage from the sorcerer, so in compensation, they cast faster and have faster cooldowns to compensate.

Much respect to you for actually saying that. Now if only you could talk to Dingo.

Alavatar
08-29-2007, 02:04 PM
I just want to clarify some semantics.

Wizards and Sorcerers cast spells at the same speed. Sorcerer spell cooldowns is significantly less then a wizard. This gives the illusion of faster casting times if spam casting a single spell.

If you take a sorcerer and cast 4 different spells in succession (chain casting), time it, and compare it to the casting speed of a wizard chain casting 4 different spells, you will find that they take the exact same amount of time.

Sorcerers have the advantage of casting a spell repeatedly faster.

Bizbag
08-29-2007, 02:20 PM
There is a universal cooldown, but I am relatively certain that it actually takes less time for a sorcerer to cast a spell than a wizard. To test it, take a wizard and a sorcerer into a quest, and have them both start casting a Summon Monster spell.

Strakeln
08-29-2007, 02:22 PM
However, I do still think there is imbalance between the two classes. I think Aesop's point is very true; there are too few useful spells of any given level, meaning a sorcerer can usually have most or all of them (currently level 6 and 7spells are an exception). Perhaps what we need is to increase the usefulness of existing spells and add more spells to the game, so that a wizard's versatility will be more important.Bingo. Although I wish to attach a rider to this bill: introducing more immunities to heighten the value of the versatility is not a good option.

(I'm picturing a scenario where you "need" spells that are pretty much useless in all other instances... say, where a boss is immune to everything but pink daisies. It highlights the advantage of being a wizard but essentially renders sorcs useless for that quest).

Bizbag
08-29-2007, 02:31 PM
Bingo. Although I wish to attach a rider to this bill: introducing more immunities to heighten the value of the versatility is not a good option.

(I'm picturing a scenario where you "need" spells that are pretty much useless in all other instances... say, where a boss is immune to everything but pink daisies. It highlights the advantage of being a wizard but essentially renders sorcs useless for that quest).

This is one reason I like the Stormreaver raid. You don't have to have Otto's Sphere of Dancing to succeed, but it's probably the best CC spell to use against the Air Elementals. It also doesn't render Sorcerers useless by virtue of being a sorcerer, but it highlights their weaker point because both Finger of Death and Otto's Sphere are highly useful in there, but they can only choose 1 level 7 spell.

Cowdenicus
08-29-2007, 03:27 PM
Aesop is a chick?????

Protagoras
08-29-2007, 03:32 PM
Aesop is a chick?????

Mmmm well Aesop is a male name.. I guess I just looked at the display thing and though female.. I sure could be wrong.. haven't met the lady or gentleman to know.

muffinlad
08-29-2007, 04:05 PM
The prevailing, most common opinion concerning arcane spellcasters in this game is that Sorcerers are better than Wizards. There are many arguments coming from both sides of the issue, but one of the most prevalent arguments out there is the Sorcerer's spellcasting speed.

You can compare the sorcerer's extra SP to the wizard's spell selection all you like, but the fact is that a sorcerer can fire off two Fingers of Death where a wizard can fire off one due to halved cooldowns, and on top of that, they get interrupted far less often because they're spending half the time actually casting the spells!

This is a blatantly unfair advantage given to Sorcerers with no legitimate reason. It have absolutely no basis in PnP, where Sorcerers were allowed 1 spell per round like everyone else, and not two spells per round.

On top of that, you can't even make a logical argument for it. If a Sorcerer gets decreased cast time because he is a 'natural' spellcaster, then why do bards get the slow cast animation and cooldowns?

Slow down the Sorcerer's cooldowns and cast time! It's time Wizards and Sorcerers were just as good as one another, just as they should be! One should not be clearly better than the other!

I disagree with you, and I play Wizards and don't play sorcerers. Sorcs need some advantage, and this is it.

muffinwizzy

Aesop
08-29-2007, 04:07 PM
Aesop is a chick?????

um...sweety you haven't figured that out yet?

well


MMMOOOOOOOOOOO!!1!!!!1111!!!!1

;)

Aesop

Cowdenicus
08-29-2007, 04:13 PM
um...sweety you haven't figured that out yet?

well


MMMOOOOOOOOOOO!!1!!!!1111!!!!1

;)

Aesop

Hey nobody accused me of being smart. Infact I have a whole feebleminded thread going now. :D

Shrazkil
08-29-2007, 04:16 PM
This is possibly the most mature argument I have ever read.

I don't think I denied that the fast spellcasting was an advantage. I'm saying it's an unfair advantage that makes Sorcerers disproportionately more powerful than Wizards.

Because it seems to matter to those who posted, I have played both a wizard and a sorcerer, and not only that, but my guild has been holding an ongoing discussion and comparison of the two classes, and in every case of people playing both, they favor sorcerers, simply because of the cast times and cooldowns. The magic missile spamming, the Death Effects thrown around, the Firewalls quickly lain, every single one prefers the Sorcerer.

The faster casting completely outweighs the extra spells their wizards get. With the exception of level 7 spells, and to a lesser extent, level 6 spells, sorcerers get enough spells to cover the useful ones, and a wizard finds himself filling holes in his spellbook with spells he might use once in a while.

Also, what happens when we get another level cap raise? When that happens, Sorcerers will get their second level 7 spell, allowing them both of the most common and useful level 7 spells - FoD and Otto's Sphere of Dancing. They'll only get 1 level 8 spell, but what about when we hit level 20? This is pure speculation, but I highly doubt there will be more than 3 extremely useful spells that no sorcerer should be without, and they'll get them all. At that point, there will be absolutely NO reason to play a wizard, because his only advantage left to him will be void.

Sorcerers should get this unfair power reduced. Yes, I'm calling for a reduction in Sorcerer power. Some people call it a 'nerf', but I believe it would make the game better. Think about it - I was advised by the first response by this thread that if I didn't like how one class was blatantly more powerful than another, I should just play the more powerful class. When one ability or power is so good that you can't imagine a player NOT picking it over another choice, it's too powerful and needs to be fixed. Why did evasion get changed? Because taking two levels of rogue was ALWAYS better than two levels of your primary class.

Go away Please! Sir!.....that more mature for you?

Go cry elsewhere because a sorcerer beat you in kill counts. Personally ill take a wizard over a sorcerer any day of the week. I like being able to know the spells i need for a quest can be brought. I mean there are sorcerers out there that cannot even afford to fit in resists. I do not mean i'll take a wizard because they are better, but in my eyes, they are perfectly interchangable.

What you are not factoring in is 3-5 free feats. Its those free feats that are what allow a faster casting to be balanced. Not to mention the benefit of Int over Charisma. How many 1 rogue/13 sorcerers do you see....how many are good. Then you have all the high Con races with a negative 2 Charisma mods, severly limiting your choices of race, and maximum hitpoints. My wizard has 289 HP, how many sorcerers even break 200 HP? If you try to tell me how unimportant HP are, refer to line 1.

Verlok_the_Red
08-29-2007, 04:30 PM
Go cry elsewhere because a sorcerer beat you in kill counts

I'm guessing Its got nothing to do with kill counts in quests... But rather PvP... The person who started this tread was probally getting owned by a sorc with quicken.. So hes crying on the fourms and wasting everyones time, for an issue thats been beaten to a pulp in the fourms already..

Theres nothing rong with casting speed's enfact Turbine has already adjusted and imo perfected cooldowns for sorc an wiz..

So you may as well lock this thread because It's a complete waste of time..

/signed

Arnya
08-29-2007, 04:32 PM
Just to put the boot in...

My sorc is 1clr/13sorc... She gets no lvl7 spells.

Do I care? No

Why? She is still the single most powerful character I have (In 1800SP bursts)

Although she died over 200 times before lvl13 (I kept count in my bio)

I take her solo where my tanks fear to tread. I love my sorc please don't molest her any more than the last few nerfs...

Aesop
08-29-2007, 04:34 PM
Just to put the boot in...

My sorc is 1clr/13sorc... She gets no lvl7 spells.

Do I care? No

Why? She is still the single most powerful character I have (In 1800SP bursts)

Although she died over 200 times before lvl13 (I kept count in my bio)

I take her solo where my tanks fear to tread. I love my sorc please don't molest her any more than the last few nerfs...

asking a bunch of gamer boys to not molest a girl is almost too funny... trust me I've seen it and I have the drool stains on a few outfits to prove it... yuck

;)

Aesop

Cowdenicus
08-29-2007, 04:34 PM
asking a bunch of gamer boys to not molest a girl is almost too funny... trust me I've seen it and I have the drool stains on a few outfits to prove it... yuck

;)

Aesop

/signed :eek: :D

Cowdenicus
08-29-2007, 04:37 PM
nothing needs to be done w/ these 2 classes if you want your wizzy to cast faster invest in the quicken feat ....

which wizards can choose to get for free at 15.

/ninja.

Jaywade
08-29-2007, 04:39 PM
Go away Please! Sir!.....that more mature for you?

Go cry elsewhere because a sorcerer beat you in kill counts. Personally ill take a wizard over a sorcerer any day of the week. I like being able to know the spells i need for a quest can be brought. I mean there are sorcerers out there that cannot even afford to fit in resists. I do not mean i'll take a wizard because they are better, but in my eyes, they are perfectly interchangable.

What you are not factoring in is 3-5 free feats. Its those free feats that are what allow a faster casting to be balanced. Not to mention the benefit of Int over Charisma. How many 1 rogue/13 sorcerers do you see....how many are good. Then you have all the high Con races with a negative 2 Charisma mods, severly limiting your choices of race, and maximum hitpoints. My wizard has 289 HP, how many sorcerers even break 200 HP? If you try to tell me how unimportant HP are, refer to line 1.


well said on many points. Wizzy's can do so many things at lvl 14 my own wizzy's has max,emp,heighten,enlarge,and extend what sorcerer has those???

while it's cool that they can spam spells my own Scorching Ray does insane damge ( I one hit things w/ it all the time 3 rays each doing up to 200 pts of damage)....nothing needs to be done w/ these 2 classes if you want your wizzy to cast faster invest in the quicken feat ....

Belfalcon
08-29-2007, 05:46 PM
with all the feats wizs get pick u faster casting it is thare but cost more spell points..

Strakeln
08-29-2007, 07:46 PM
This is one reason I like the Stormreaver raid. You don't have to have Otto's Sphere of Dancing to succeed, but it's probably the best CC spell to use against the Air Elementals. It also doesn't render Sorcerers useless by virtue of being a sorcerer, but it highlights their weaker point because both Finger of Death and Otto's Sphere are highly useful in there, but they can only choose 1 level 7 spell.Excellent example of where a wizard outshines a sorcerer.

Dkmafia
08-30-2007, 12:05 AM
The prevailing, most common opinion concerning arcane spellcasters in this game is that Sorcerers are better than Wizards. There are many arguments coming from both sides of the issue, but one of the most prevalent arguments out there is the Sorcerer's spellcasting speed.

You can compare the sorcerer's extra SP to the wizard's spell selection all you like, but the fact is that a sorcerer can fire off two Fingers of Death where a wizard can fire off one due to halved cooldowns, and on top of that, they get interrupted far less often because they're spending half the time actually casting the spells!

This is a blatantly unfair advantage given to Sorcerers with no legitimate reason. It have absolutely no basis in PnP, where Sorcerers were allowed 1 spell per round like everyone else, and not two spells per round.

On top of that, you can't even make a logical argument for it. If a Sorcerer gets decreased cast time because he is a 'natural' spellcaster, then why do bards get the slow cast animation and cooldowns?

Slow down the Sorcerer's cooldowns and cast time! It's time Wizards and Sorcerers were just as good as one another, just as they should be! One should not be clearly better than the other!

Lol to bad I would get banned for saying what I thought of your idea. I personally cant even bring myself to level a sorc and I have almost 2 of everything else. Not everyone thinks they are that good. I'm happy they gave them the boost to mana, makes them playable now. Thats about it.

Zack77
08-30-2007, 02:31 AM
Like it's been said many times, leave the classes as they were. The dev's honestly *should* know what they were doing, and thats why they did it. I honestly dont care if you think they should be nerfed or not. I say they should not. I have both a sorcerer and a wizard. And I enjoy playing both. Normally, I play my wizard, since he can do it all, nuke, CC, buff, and be a party man. But, I play my sorcerer when I want a change of pace and be a pure nuker. It just depends how you enjoy playing. And the only downside between them is about 500-600 sp...... sometimes i get too used to my sorc lol.
Wiz has 1343
Sorc has about 1900-2100(somewhere around there, havent played him for about a month now) so, i'd prolly have a **** ton of SP left when im playing my sorc. And anyway, I only use the same spells on my sorc as my wizard(and I rolled my sorc 2-3 months after my wizard) and its not even all of the spells that are in a wizards spell slot. I use only 3 lvl 1 spells, 2-3 lvl 2 spells, 4 lvl 4 spells, 1 lvl 5 spell, 3 lvl 6 spells, and 3 lvl 7 spells. the only place im hurt on my sorc is on the lvl 6 and 7 spell list :(
But, all in all, I actually do prefer my sorc over my wiz(better solo ability lol)

weyoun
08-30-2007, 10:48 AM
Faster casting is the whole reason I play my sorceror. OP you need to concentrate on making your Wiz better, instead of whining about your lack of kills on the boards.

hannika
08-30-2007, 11:13 AM
asking a bunch of gamer boys to not molest a girl is almost too funny... trust me I've seen it and I have the drool stains on a few outfits to prove it... yuck

;)

Aesop

hahaha qft hun.

smatt
08-30-2007, 11:17 AM
Oh nice... Well to be honest Sorcs and Wizzys both need to have a major needle poked in their collective balloon heads. :D How about MORE super spell resistant mobs.... Ya that's the ticket :eek:

Makdar
08-30-2007, 11:45 AM
Have both a lvl 14 sorcerer and a lvl 14 wizard.

One is hardly better than the other. Maybe better at certain things. Wizards are way more flexible than sorcerers. Being able to have mem'd and cast FoD, Otto's Dancing Sphere, Mass, Hold and Flesh to Stone, Disenigrate, Greater Heroism and Symbol of Fear/Persuasion at one point of time is a huge advantage to wizards. Not to mention wizard's generally better spell penatration and spell focus due to more feats.

If casting time for sorcerer's was knocked down. Wizards would become clearly the more powerful class.

Do I play my wizard a lot. Yes, I do. Why? Because it's a lot of fun being able to cast more spells.

Clerical
08-30-2007, 02:52 PM
why would anyone ask for another class to be nerfed.. why are you not asking for wizards to get faster casting rates? Faster casting for sorcs is fun, i'm for keeping things in the game that are fun.. maybe even increasing them!*gasp*

HumanJHawkins
08-30-2007, 03:22 PM
Bones Combat Brigade Guild Motto:Sic Vis Pacem Parabellum - "If you want peace prepare for war"

Alternate Translation: 'You Have Sick View of Peace in yout Brain' :D

FoxOne
08-30-2007, 04:10 PM
wizards get bonus feats, use one of those feats for quicken spell, then your wizard is still 2 bonus feats up AND has the faster cast rate, stop complaining, its a fair exchange.

remember we have a maximum of 1316 Sp's & to quicken spells doubles the cost.So hmm no.

Val'lochar_Del'Armgo
08-30-2007, 04:12 PM
Yay- another 'nerf that caster class, cuz it isn't fair' thread by someone with a caster of the opposite class.

Great Idea, cuz if they just kept nerfin the cr*p out of both classes, well then WHY EVEN HAVE the two different classes? Someone is always gonna be unhappy.

And yes, I have a sorcerer.

And no, I don't think anyone who plays a wizard has any 'unfair' advantages over me and should be nerfed.

And No, I've never rolled a Wizard, don't intend to.

If you are unhappy, roll yourself a sorcerer and then post a thread about how unhappy you are about things they NEED to fix in this game that are really broken. Or about how we need more content. And some marketing.

Fast casting is the ONLY advantage left that my sorcerer has after all the changes made to everyone since this game came out. If it gets nerfed, she will retire to loot mule status, like my rogue did.

Raceslayer

Aesop
08-30-2007, 04:22 PM
I like Wizards.

Sorcerors are ok too.


but I perfer Wizards.


Leave Sorcerors alone. Though the whole double Mana from items worries me at times. I'll get over it.

If ya really want to help me get over it faster though you could add the following.


1. More Spells: There are lots of these in the books and we hardly have any in comparison. Sorcerors don't have enough choices to fry their brains yet ;)

2. More Metamagic Feats: Energy Substitution, Energy Admixture, Explosive Spell etc... I wouldn't object to Reserve Feats as well. Feats are the other advantage of the Wizard caster and having more choices would be nice.

3. Crafting: Yeah Crafting :) I know its coming but I really am looking forward to it :D Please please Please don't screw it up. This is DnD Online not WoW or EQ. Let's keep it that way.


Aesop

VirieSquichie
08-30-2007, 05:30 PM
Wizards are the only class that can learn every arcane spell in the game.

Too bad over half the arcane spells in the game have been reduced to (or started out as) useless filler.

I mapped out what spells I'd take for a sorceror that was built similarly to my wizard. I can get pretty much everything I actually care about. There are two or three very situational spells that I wouldn't have, but they're so rarely used I doubt I'll really miss them. By using the sorceror class I get the faster casting and more spell points. What's not to love?

That said, I made an extra wizard and a couple extra sorcerors just before the server merge - I haven't given up on wizards completely yet.

Makdar
08-31-2007, 08:14 AM
I believe wizards will become even more powerful/useful as time goes on and the lvl cap goes up.

A party with a sorcerer and either a wizard or bard and maybe both will be the best possible party. Add in a cleric and one or two tanks and you've got a party that can handle just about anything. Someone with pretty high rogue skills will need to come along as well most of the time too.

Mod 5 is gonna be mostly undead stuff. Wizards shine there. Bards, not so much. Sorcerers can always burn things.