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NameisToad
08-28-2007, 12:58 PM
From an ancient thread in General:

I don't know about other clerics, but when I play my clerics in PUGs I tend to distribute heals evenly to the melee (other than taking care of the alpha hit).

So if you are taking proportionately way more damage than the other melee, you will fall behind and I have no problem with letting you die... after all raise dead only costs me 30 SP, so you had better have means of alternate healing.

I know when I play my cleric, I heal whoever is hurt, regardless of how much damage they've been taking or how much damage everyone else has taken.

I try to make sure no one dies until I'm out of mana, and preferably I don't run out of spell points either. (though I'm only level 12, and my guild doesn't group with me, so I'm nowhere near perfect)

Am I playing my cleric wrong? Are we all supposed to be as arrogant and prim as the above quote sounds to me?

Zenako
08-28-2007, 01:07 PM
Battlefield Triage is one of the hardest things to master. In some fights, I need to make SURE the caster lives, in other battles, the main tank MUST remain standing to keep aggro on them, or we WILL wipe. There is no single rule that covers all circumstances.

In a PUG I try to get a good sense of how things will play out and adjust accordingly. If the casters are just PK/Stoning mobs, then they tend to be safe. IF Wall of Fire is coming down, they WILL get aggro and get it hard and will need full time tending in many cases.

Mad_Bombardier
08-28-2007, 01:35 PM
Healing priority is always the Cleric. :D

As for healing mana sponges, I will heal normally. Then when I'm drained to less than half mana, I stop healing and carry soul stones instead.

Grenfell
08-28-2007, 02:21 PM
I don't PUG my clerics, so this is extremely skewed. Having said that, I would apply the same rule in PUG's, so here it is.

My priorities are:

(1) Myself -- unless there's another cleric, and HE's the main healer. Dead cleric heals/rezzes no one. If I have to heal and run away, I will, because as a battlecleric, chances are I'll be able to take care of whatever is following me, then return to bring the whole party back.

(2) Main Tank -- in our guild groups, we tend to run VERY light on melees, but in every case, I focus on one guy who tends to take the lead in getting and keeping aggro (whether defensive tank or DPS) and keep him upright. All other melees are clearly second class citizens, and they figure it out pretty quickly.

(3) Caster -- the true power in DDO at the high end is the caster. He's also squishy. I keep them upright as much as possible -- and it's easier to do since a CMW might keep them alive, while a tank requires a full Heal.

(4) Everyone else.

As a rule, I don't heal wand-carrying classes except in combat (and they don't heal me either when I'm on my paladin/ranger/etc.), and only to save them from death, and only if I can afford to do it without endangering one of the three above.

I never top off, unless at a shrine; people have potions and wands for that.

The most difficult thing is determing who your Main Tank is unless it's verbalized ahead of time. I try to keep attention to who has the aggro most -- it's usually the guy swinging a Greataxe or someone with a Tower Shield and using Intimidate. TWF'ers generally do not fall into this category, and they are lower on the list. A Rogue fighting in one of my parties should basically know how to control aggro, because they're going to be way down on the triage list.

/gren

NameisToad
08-28-2007, 02:31 PM
Ok, looks like:
3/3 arrogant is the answer
3/3 The guy I was originally quoting does the opposite of everyone else here

:(

ErgonomicCat
08-28-2007, 02:55 PM
You should and shouldn't listen to them.

If there's one guy pulling all the healing, you need to watch him fight. Is he up in the front keeping focus, running back to peel critters off the casters, and generally taking care of the rest of the party?

If so, heal him up like mad. He's saving you SP because you're casting one Heal, rather than 10 CMW.

Is he up front wailing away at everything while the rest of the party is being careful and tactical? Are 4 people doing careful pulls and one is doing headlong charges?

Then perhaps death and xp debt will show him why that's a bad idea.

Sojourner
08-28-2007, 03:00 PM
My list is pretty much the exact same as Grenfel's, whether pugging or guild grouping


1) Myself - Once the cleric dies, it can all go south even faster than it was before he died.

2) Primary Tank/DPS
2) Primary CC
These two can waffle a bit, depending on the nature of the fight. It basically comes down to which one is more likely to pull our bacon out of the fire. Or, possibly which one is more likely to survive to drag our stones to the shrine so we don't have a completely party wipe.

3) Secondary Healers. This may be #2 if on a heavy raid where you want one cleric keeping an eye on the other. Otherwise, as long as one is up you're ok, but you definitely keep healer #2 high on the list

4) Arcane caster
4) DPS
Depends on which you kept alive as #2. If you have a primary tank, you want to try to keep a CC caster up to make his job easier. If you kept an arcane up, you want to keep some muscle around to help finish off the mobs.

5 & 6 -- Whoever else is in the party.

Zenako
08-28-2007, 03:18 PM
Ok, looks like:
3/3 arrogant is the answer
3/3 The guy I was originally quoting does the opposite of everyone else here

:(

Well while it would be wonderful to be able to spread the healing amoung all the wounded (and you can if you keep fights tight with Mass Cures) you WILL need to make choices. Often you will see more than one red bar dropping at the same time. You have a finite response time and cooldown for spells. You will have to choose who to heal first, and the others might end up going down or dying before you even get another chance to cast another spell or use a wand. Split second decisions are the lifeblood of a real time game and encounter.

It is not necessarily aggrogant to be in that position, but gaming reality. The guy you quoted from, and we have no clue to the context his post was written, is not wrong, it is just that you very often do not have the luxury of healing everyone. This is part of why when playing my Cleric I get right into things and can cast the Mass Cures and get multiple party members at once.

sigtrent
08-28-2007, 03:23 PM
Generaly I heal whomever is hurt but when choices need to be made...

I come first
Second is the primary damage dealer, withouth them you can't really win
Third are those who can heal or raise me
Fourth is everyone else

On rare occasions I will intentionaly not heal someone who has a penchant for getting themselves killed but isn't actualy killing much. I don't mind kamakazi players so long as they are actualy doing something. But every once in a while you get folks that are just being dead weight on my mana bar. I heal them after everyone else is squared away.

rimble
08-28-2007, 03:54 PM
It is not necessarily aggrogant to be in that position, but gaming reality. The guy you quoted from, and we have no clue to the context his post was written, is not wrong, it is just that you very often do not have the luxury of healing everyone. This is part of why when playing my Cleric I get right into things and can cast the Mass Cures and get multiple party members at once.

OP, if you think this is arrogance you got it all wrong. Zenako has it right--Battlefield Triage. A Fireball goes off...the Sorcerer and Wizard health bars drop to 25% hp, you drop to 50% hp, the fighter is around 60% and dropping fast because he's getting wailed on, the Wizard is flailing around like a maniac because he cast Wall of Fire (again) and the Rogue is Tumbling away down the hallway because he busted out his monster Sneak Attack on the mini-boss (again)...

Better start making some decisions.

Sure, in an ideal situation, most Clerics will 'heal whoever is hurt'. However, everyone should contribute and help out...Rangers/Paladins/Bards should certainly wand-whip themselves and others a little...everyone should have emergency potions...and everyone should be equipped and play smart...shield-up, turtle, stay near the Cleric for healing...

You have far more control over your survival than the Cleric does. Most people like to just forego that responsibility and lay it all on the Cleric. Clerics generally don't appreciate that.

Jaysensen
08-28-2007, 05:38 PM
Using blanket statements isnt a good idea. Zenako had it right. The player skill involved in healing is to know when to heal who and with what spell.

It really "just depends." There are any number of variables and situations going on...
Do I have a jumping bean arcane who is managing aggro using Firewall? I might heal him over a Tank.
Is the melee tanking 3 Cultists? I may heal him over a Mage.
Is the archer kiting a orange name far away from the group? I definitely wont chase after him - he probably is soloing the monster on purpose.


That being said I dont feel bad when people die because they:
1) have no heavy Fort. Cant do much if you get double critted by an Ogre.
2) run off, aggro a room to get a chest, when we are skipping chests etc.
3) run into POP environmental rooms without resistances.
4) are friends who i want to kill on purpose.

cridus
08-28-2007, 07:15 PM
Well once the team is in the heat of things, I might be in the front lines as well starting off considering everyone is usually buffed out to all heavens. After a few fights I like to sit back and watch the battle progress, if the caster is firewalling a lot, I know he is murdering all the mobs so I like to keep him alive, tanks are keeping the aggro off me so I like to keep them up and running, other clerics are saving my sp so I like to keep them standing, Rogues disable traps, which saves me sp, open chests for loot and do very nice backstab damage so I like to keep them up and running. Basically I want the whole team to remain in fighting condition. But when the sh** hits the fan I rush the front lines, for mass cures and wand whip the back line this seems to help keep everyone standing. Of course sometimes people die, and if I think its safe I rez in combat, rare that I do this though.

My Priority in the heat of it, is whoever's bar is the lowest,
The rogue or caster can only take a few hits, so a cmw and they are good, the tank is almost at half, he can wait a sec, for a full on heal. The lowest prioirty I find lately is myself, many times I'm too busy healing others that I forget to get myself.

Sojourner
08-28-2007, 07:29 PM
Really where this triage shows up most is at mid levels.

Party is all grouped together nicely, covering each others back, and 2 or 3 casters jump out of nowhere and pound everyone with a flamestrike / fireball / lightning / sleetstorm (or 2 or 3).

The whole party is hurting, some may be close to dieing. But, you don't have mass cure spells yet. Time to figure out who gets the first spell, and who gets the second. If things are really hairy, whoever you have slated for cure spells 3 and 4 might not survive that long.

If everyone is equally likely to die very shortly, you go off your triage list - you can only save 2 of 6, who will it be? If only 1 or 2 are likely to die soon, but the rest can hold on just a bit longer then you get those 1 or 2 squishies first.


As a side note - this is where I loved my Empower Healing. Being able to use a CLW to fill up a squishie and a CMW or CSW to fill up a tank meant that I had CCW in reserve for when the cooldown timers just aren't cooling down fast enough. Much nicer than using CMW/CSW/CCW and only having a CLW in reserve for when cooldown timers are running tight.

Montrose
08-28-2007, 07:30 PM
OP, if you think this is arrogance you got it all wrong. Zenako has it right--Battlefield Triage. A Fireball goes off...the Sorcerer and Wizard health bars drop to 25% hp, you drop to 50% hp, the fighter is around 60% and dropping fast because he's getting wailed on, the Wizard is flailing around like a maniac because he cast Wall of Fire (again) and the Rogue is Tumbling away down the hallway because he busted out his monster Sneak Attack on the mini-boss (again)...

Better start making some decisions.

Sure, in an ideal situation, most Clerics will 'heal whoever is hurt'. However, everyone should contribute and help out...Rangers/Paladins/Bards should certainly wand-whip themselves and others a little...everyone should have emergency potions...and everyone should be equipped and play smart...shield-up, turtle, stay near the Cleric for healing...

You have far more control over your survival than the Cleric does. Most people like to just forego that responsibility and lay it all on the Cleric. Clerics generally don't appreciate that.

Mass cure brings the casters back up to near full and keeps the main tank long enough for you to fire off the heal. The rogue is on his own since he's out of your casting range, or soon will be.

With the introduction of heal spell and scrolls, it's not all that hard.

PurdueDave
08-28-2007, 07:35 PM
My healing priority is...

1. me
2. you

:)

Aspenor
08-28-2007, 07:43 PM
Using blanket statements isnt a good idea.

Does anybody else see a contradiction here?? :p

Jaysensen
08-28-2007, 07:46 PM
Does anybody else see a contradiction here?? :p

LOL that was unintentional.

Gennerik
08-28-2007, 07:56 PM
Personally, I focus on the melees. I really don't care which one happens to be taking all the damage or what-not. I just look at the percentage of loss on the bar. If casters ambush us, I'll normally fire off a Cometfall or something to give me some reacting time to heal people, and if a caster starts taking damage I'll heal them before the melee unless the melee is still being beat on by a majority of the monsters, then the caster is on his jumping-own until I get the melee stabilized.

If I have to break out a wand, that normally means that I haven't done a good job managing my SP or someone has been absolutely no help with hate management and is taking way too much damage. At that point I'll let them know, and if they continue, they die and someone can run them back to the shrine if they want.

NameisToad
08-29-2007, 10:09 AM
When I'm playing my cleric, I don't generally heal myself unless I'm down to less than 25% health, or everyone else is stable at the moment.

My first priority is always the guy with the smallest percentage of health left, and my lowest priority is always the guys who are 100%.

If I enter an instance and find that the party is splitting into multiple groups, I will occasionally take up a central location and wait for people to ask for heals. (unless there's a vocalized plan of attack and I am asked to do something else)

I'm a level 12 Drow cleric with ~1300 spell points, 12 DVs, Empower Healing Spells, Extend Spell, and plenty of money for wands and scrolls. I usually carry 5-10 CSW wands, 10-25 Heal Scrolls, 10-25 Greater Restoration scrolls, and 10-25 Raise Dead/Resurrection scrolls. I haven't run out of any of those items in quite some time, even while raiding. (which I sometimes do with a full party because PUGs are like that sometimes)


What I'm hearing is either that what I've been doing is impossible at high-end content (even though I've had no problem with this plan in POP on elite with 12s and 13s) or that I'm the best cleric who ever lived (which makes no sense since I've only had my cleric for a couple of months) or that I have an unusually good healbot build. (which makes no sense since I built him on the fly, like all my characters)

I've had people die in combat while I was around, but almost never before I ran out of spell points trying to keep them alive. (except for beholders... some people die instantly when beholders look at them)

My original question here was "Am I playing my cleric wrong?" and most of you seem to be saying yes. You seem to think that the job is harder than it has been for me so far. Maybe my experience will change if I ever get into any high-end content... or maybe I'm just the best who ever lived. :) (you want arrogant... you can have arrogant)

Ringos
08-29-2007, 10:33 AM
I heal those who need healin'. Nobody that runs with me (even in a PUG) needs to worry...they will always have their HP topped-off. I use wands for the majority of heals and save my mana for combat healing and casting the fun stuff (comet fall, destruction, GC,...). If I end up running with some people that run ahead on thier own, I'll mention something once, and if they continue to do it i just won't group with them again. People that group with me like having me around, and that's a source of pride I guess.

In battle, I just do my best to keep everyone up. A caster with 1/2 HP left will get healed before the dwarf fighter with 300+ HP (most of the time), although nobody has to wait too long. I don't like people dying on my watch, although I do enjoy it when a run-ahead maverick bites the dust! I top people off with wands after the battle.

apollojuly
08-29-2007, 11:31 AM
Until you learn the dyamics of a PUG healing can be tricky.

One simple starting point is to cast heal on the front line fighter most in need. Then while that recharges, cast CSW on the second tier character most in need.

Calling out strategy helps. "Lay massive firewalls here", "We're going to shield block the door", or "Fight inside our cloudkill" let you adjust your targets and spell selection.

And on a side note, the only time I don't heal is when somebody makes a bonehead mistake like falling from a height or walking into a known trap. Suck up your pride as you suck down a cure potion.

NameisToad
08-29-2007, 12:05 PM
OK, counting everyone but myself, I get 11 Arrogant and proud of it, and 4 I'm just doing a job and I try my best. (2 of the non-arrogant are borderline, but still)

I can't tell if it's player arrogance because gamers are gamers, or if it's something to do with the small number of clerics in the game, but it bothers me all the same.

Mad_Bombardier
08-29-2007, 12:18 PM
OK, counting everyone but myself, I get 11 Arrogant and proud of it, and 4 I'm just doing a job and I try my best. (2 of the non-arrogant are borderline, but still)

I can't tell if it's player arrogance because gamers are gamers, or if it's something to do with the small number of clerics in the game, but it bothers me all the same.It's not arrogance, it's simple facts. The Cleric heals himself first because if he goes down, everyone else falls like dominoes. It has nothing to do with "us vs. them." I also usually have someone in my party be the designated Cleric healer (Ranger, Bard, Paladin, UMD Rogue). It's his job to keep the Cleric up if things go badly and he can't heal himself or is incapped. The Cleric is just that important.

Roguewiz
08-29-2007, 12:59 PM
#1 Cleric
#2 Tank/DPS
#3 CC
#4 Everyone else

The Cleric should always keep themselves up as first priority. A dead Cleric, is a Cleric that isn't healing.

The Second person that should be healed, should be the Tank & DPS characters. Just because the Tank drops, doesn't mean it is insta wipe. DPS toons may have enough hp/ac to survive a few hits, while their DPS tears stuff up.

Third should be the Crowd Control people. Usually, they are pulling quite a bit of aggro. They also tend to have low hp. It is best to try and heal them, but not to worry if they are taking too much damage. Just let them die and rez them later :)

Fourth should be anyone else. Mainly other arcanes, other Clerics, Ranged people, ect.

Another thing to keep in mind, and I try to drill this into the head of every Cleric I come across, save the mana/wands for actual combat healing. Let those that can heal themselves, do so during downtime (in between combat). This will save you the spell points, and plat.

Jaysensen
08-29-2007, 01:08 PM
OK, counting everyone but myself, I get 11 Arrogant and proud of it, and 4 I'm just doing a job and I try my best. (2 of the non-arrogant are borderline, but still)

I can't tell if it's player arrogance because gamers are gamers, or if it's something to do with the small number of clerics in the game, but it bothers me all the same.

I think you are confusing a couple things - in game play, and the nature of people.

Generalizing that Clerics are arrogant, is obviously false, whereas generalizing that some people in general are just arrogant is also obviously a truism. There also should be a group of individuals who 1) are arrogant and 2) happen to be clerics meet. (/point self)

Many people believe that confidence and arrogance are only a stones throw apart. Confidence is necessary for a player to squeeze the most potential out of his or her character, in order to learn its limits and play it to its full potential.


On the other hand, like M-Bomb says, Clerics ARE just that important. For example, if one is a 12 CON Wizard with no Heavy Fortification casting Firewall and not jumping around, to be honest, that individual is playing his or her character to the detriment of the group. You dont HAVE to play the way everyone else does, but the cleric also doesnt HAVE to waste 25% of his or her spell points on one fight.

rimble
08-29-2007, 01:11 PM
OK, counting everyone but myself, I get 11 Arrogant and proud of it, and 4 I'm just doing a job and I try my best. (2 of the non-arrogant are borderline, but still)

I can't tell if it's player arrogance because gamers are gamers, or if it's something to do with the small number of clerics in the game, but it bothers me all the same.

I really can't reconcile what you're saying versus my understanding of the words you're using.

arrogant:
making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud

triage:
1. the process of sorting victims, as of a battle or disaster, to determine medical priority in order to increase the number of survivors
2. the determination of priorities for action in an emergency

moops
08-29-2007, 01:13 PM
There is a lot of good advice here--I don't consider it arrogant OR Selfish. Some of this changes if one runs with Guild or with PUGS most of the time, and also changes with builds, maybe that is where you have differences with others.

Many cleric builds take no damage so they never have to make the choice to heal themselves first. I hardly take damage even though I am an offensive caster--there are only a few areas where I will take alot of damage. Melee clerics will have different experiences, and if they are the only healer in the group they need to keep themselves alive..

I don't PUG alot but when I do I make sure that I stay alive first because I found out the hard way that not everyone has UMD or rez rings. With bosses or the Scale Run I have no problem sacrificing myself to get the last 500+ harm on a Dragon to make sure it goes down in time. When I am with Guild just about everyone can rez so I choose to keep the main tank and the main caster alive over myself when on the rare occaision it gets to that.

Now, after running with very good people, it can be very aggravating to join a PUG, and have a TWF with 30 AC and no Heavy Fort and NO POTIONS take up all my time when I could be casting CC/Destructions that would be more useful to the party--sure I can keep him alive and everyone else, BUT I like to do other things besides heal on my clerics and they are built to take down enemies fast themselves. At some point if the 2WF does not change his tactics I might just start to let him die so that he gets the idea that he SHOULD come up with a better strategy.

Also not all of us are built with MAX SP--I only carry around 1100 on both clerics, which is fine for 99% of the content that I do even with pugs since my spells rarely fail, but If I have a reckless player they can easily eat up 50% of my SPS, and that is no fun. And I know that there are level 14 clerics on this board with less than me, I think some under 1000.

Basically I've learned that if I feel like I need to write an Auto Script to keep a player alive, that I am actually neglecting the rest of the party--If I have to make the choice between casting a Greater Command which will keep most of the party fully healed or healing a MAnasponge, well, you know my choice.

NameisToad
08-29-2007, 06:38 PM
I really can't reconcile what you're saying versus my understanding of the words you're using.

arrogant:
making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud


On rare occasions I will intentionaly not heal someone who has a penchant for getting themselves killed but isn't actualy killing much.


That being said I dont feel bad when people die because they:
1) have no heavy Fort. Cant do much if you get double critted by an Ogre.
2) run off, aggro a room to get a chest, when we are skipping chests etc.
3) run into POP environmental rooms without resistances.
4) are friends who i want to kill on purpose.

1> don't have the best possible equipment
2> run off on thier own
3> run off on thier own
4> as a prank


After a few fights I like to sit back and watch the battle progress... other clerics are saving my sp so I like to keep them standing


My healing priority is...

1. me
2. you

prolly a joke, but still...


If I have to break out a wand, that normally means that I haven't done a good job managing my SP or someone has been absolutely no help with hate management and is taking way too much damage. At that point I'll let them know, and if they continue, they die and someone can run them back to the shrine if they want.


or maybe I'm just the best who ever lived.


And on a side note, the only time I don't heal is when somebody makes a bonehead mistake like falling from a height or walking into a known trap. Suck up your pride as you suck down a cure potion.

There's a great deal of arrogance in both presentation and content...

PurdueDave
08-29-2007, 07:08 PM
There's a great deal of arrogance in both presentation and content...

At least you qouted yourself.:D

Everyone should make it a priority to look out for number one when it comes to survival. This is for a couple of reasons but mainly because you know your situation best. This can come from dropping a scroll, just shedding some aggro, or block & chug.

A good healer will just keep you off the ropes while you have the aggro. Truthfully, healing is pretty straightforward. Mainly just pay attention to where people are and who's getting clobbered. Experience will yield the knowledge of when you can lay off the heals and conserve.

Gennerik
08-30-2007, 12:18 AM
There's a great deal of arrogance in both presentation and content...

Are you calling me arrogant because I critique my own skills? Or because after I let someone know that they are keeping me from effectively healing the rest of the party as well as themselves and will not be able to continue to do so shortly I may shift them down in my priorities? If it's the first, I'd like to say that having a good idea of what I can do as a Cleric doesn't make me arrogant. I'm just comfortable with what my Cleric can do, and because I normally only cast Cure Light Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, Heal, and Mass Cure Light Wounds, I very rarely ever run out of S. And if it's the second, then maybe, but at least I give them a warning that I won't be able to keep up healing them.

And by the way, I love your signature. :D

apollojuly
08-30-2007, 07:59 AM
My quote isn't arrogance. It's tough love.

rimble
08-30-2007, 10:44 AM
Man...now you're just trolling...you're reading whatever you want into those quotes and are quoting them completely out of context like some kind of shock journalist. It's really not important enough to me to explain how messed up your attitude is. So, take care.

Eladiun
08-30-2007, 10:54 AM
Battlefield Triage is one of the hardest things to master. In some fights, I need to make SURE the caster lives, in other battles, the main tank MUST remain standing to keep aggro on them, or we WILL wipe. There is no single rule that covers all circumstances.


Hammer->Nail->Head

I agree 100%. In most cases, I'll keep my tanks up and if I lose a caster or two, oh well I can raise em. But if the tank falls we all drop quickly after. In other cases where the tank can't damage nearly as effectively as the wizard, like wiz king for instance, I'll focus on my caster first.

Beyond that there are those guys who fall to the bottom of the list for other reasons... the guy who insists on running ahead of the rogue in a quest with a ton of traps and setting them all off, the zerging guy who shouldn't be zerging, etc... the mana sponges drop down on my heal list.

There is also a lot to how you heal. I ignore the 400 point barb till he is at 1/3 and then only hit him with a full heal and I'll wand whip the wizzy rather than 'over' heal em. I think it just comes with practice.

NameisToad
08-30-2007, 01:04 PM
Are you calling me arrogant because I critique my own skills?
No, the quote, "If I have to break out a wand, that normally means that I haven't done a good job managing my SP," is a great example of arrogance in presentation.


Or because after I let someone know that they are keeping me from effectively healing the rest of the party as well as themselves and will not be able to continue to do so shortly I may shift them down in my priorities?
The quote you are referring to here, "if they continue, they die," is an example of arogance in content. The following quote, "someone can run them back to the shrine if they want," is actually far more extreme in my opinion...


And by the way, I love your signature. :D

I thought you might. I like to take things slightly out of centext when I think they're funny. :)

Jaysensen
08-30-2007, 01:19 PM
Heavy Fort is required gear and isnt even rare. It is a level 11 mod on Belts, and Rings and is also a static item from Relic of Sovereign Past.

Buying a belt is cheap on Khyber at the AH, Do the quest 5 times, or buy the ore off the AH and do it once. Nowdays, many people going on that quest dont need the ore, and just give away their cut of the ore.

NameisToad
08-30-2007, 03:01 PM
Man...now you're just trolling...you're reading whatever you want into those quotes and are quoting them completely out of context like some kind of shock journalist. It's really not important enough to me to explain how messed up your attitude is. So, take care.

I don't know if I'd call it trolling, but when I was told that no one was being arrogant I felt a need to show the parts I thought justified my statement.

I'm not supremely upset by any of this, but I did want to know how the majority of forum clerics felt about healing and arrogance, and I think I've got some good answers here.

No one thinks being proud of his/her own accomplishments is arrogance, and anyone who has played a cleric up to level 10+ and still finds groups is obviously a cleric with some accomplishments to be proud of. I KNOW I'm not the best that ever lived, as I am not Domi Nate (formerly of the Pacific Knights) and therefor cannot be.

I also know that I'm a very good healer, because 99% of the groups I'm in tell me so when I go to log off. I just wanted to see if the quote in the first post had anythign to do with the healing priority of the majority of clerics. His quote was taken from a discussion on rogues in combat, and was defending a cleric's decision (possibly his own, I do not know as it was not stated) to cease healing the rogue who was acting as a melee combatant.

All of you agree that people who need more healing than normal should be left out in the cold unless they are providing services to warrant the extra attention. I really do heal everyone until I'm out of mana, and then tell the group I'm out of mana and on wands alone. Many people offer me Mnemonic potions, or tell the mana sponges to knock it off... Many people do neither and blame the mana sponge if we fail the quest. I'm happy with things as they are, and I doubt I will change my opinion of the best way to handle the situation, just as you guys will not change your opinions.

Discussions can be fun. :) Especially when some little a$$hat comes in and takes a bunch of quotes a little out of context and pokes a little fun at some people who take this game a little too seriously. :D

NameisToad
08-30-2007, 03:09 PM
Heavy Fort is required gear and isnt even rare. It is a level 11 mod on Belts, and Rings and is also a static item from Relic of Sovereign Past.

Buying a belt is cheap on Khyber at the AH, Do the quest 5 times, or buy the ore off the AH and do it once. Nowdays, many people going on that quest dont need the ore, and just give away their cut of the ore.

I've been playing for more than a year, I've deleted three capped characters (when the cap was 12) and I've never worn a heavy fort item.

If I ever cap another fighter (one of the deleted has been rerolled seven times, and is currently level 6) then I may acquire a heavy fort item and see if it helps him any. My wizard and my cleric haven't had any need for them, and those are my only high-level characters right now. (13 and 12, respectively)

Jaysensen
08-30-2007, 03:20 PM
Okay, that has nothing to do with what you said. You said "Best Possible Equipment". My point is that it is common and easy AND cheap. Best Possible would be like Ancient Band. Unless you think Light Fort is adequate. I dont care how many melees you have rolled up, though the lack of Heavy fort on all of them really shows a lot about you.


You really should try it with an open mind. You may not notice a difference, but over time, your survivability goes up dramatically.

moops
08-30-2007, 03:56 PM
I've been playing for more than a year, I've deleted three capped characters (when the cap was 12) and I've never worn a heavy fort item.

If I ever cap another fighter (one of the deleted has been rerolled seven times, and is currently level 6) then I may acquire a heavy fort item and see if it helps him any. My wizard and my cleric haven't had any need for them, and those are my only high-level characters right now. (13 and 12, respectively)

The Gianthold Quests on Elite changes the need for Heavy Fort considerably. I can deal with one melle without it most of the time, but 2 and depending on the quest I will run out of SP. I've seen people die in 2 hits.

Arnya
08-30-2007, 04:01 PM
Yesterday I ran Xorian with a PUG lvls7-8 with one lvl10. I was my lvl8 cleric. I s**t myself when the leader (a barb) invited not one, but 2 more barbs to group (one was WF). The other member was a rogue.

We had a sorc in group so I figured I'm healing the WF too. I laid out my apprehension at the start of the quest and warned them to get me wands if they want burst healing. Nope - crickets and tumbleweeds.

Get inside the path to madness and again I ask that they stay together and don't expext to be much over 60% health for much of the quest. I get offered cash. Sorry guys, too late I'm not taking a 20% hit so I can heal you.

We clear the path no problems, get inside the quest and OMG!! They all listened and stuck together and listened to the guide (the sorc - I find it helps if the damage dealer is the guide!)

We did fine until we got acid spray from the end PK hounds. Wipe. Kind of my fault because I sat on my remaining SP and didn't acid resist (I died then we all went down)

No sweat they all released bar one and we went back in and finished the quest.

AND!!! I noticed at least one of the barbs quaffing pots between battles. He got topped off to near 100%...

I was really impressed with the PUG because I only had like 525SP and had enough to buff the group before using the shrine. The only player I had to burst heal was the sorc when he was in his FW's. NOTE: the barbs didn't sit in the FW and swing, they stood still and let the sorc use them as obstacles.

I believe AGGRO MANAGEMENT is the key and healing priority naturally finds it's level if one player is keeping mobs occupied. I felt more effective with a near-wandless lvl8 cleric with 2 res scrolls than I usually do in PoP with my heal specced raid loot lvl14 capped cleric... Thanks to all in group.

Casta
08-30-2007, 05:57 PM
Iv rolled at least 20 fighters about half of them got capped, and I notice a huge difference with heavy fort. If you play a fighter think of how much more damage you get from crits, at least half my barbs damage comes from crits, maybe mobs don't have that kind of crit damage but even if it saves you from 10-15% of there damage thats a big thing. And thats not damage over time thats burst damage that can take you down faster then the cleric can heal.

And im still new to being a cleric but iv already decided I don't heal wf who do stupid stuff, like run ahead and get agro, they get no healing priority.

Arnya
08-30-2007, 06:00 PM
Question Casta: does playing a cleric influence your playstyle as a melee?

Seriously, do you zerg more because you know what a cleric is capable of?

Or do you have a little more patience and consideration?

I ask because my first capped was a cleric and man, I zerg with my melees because 'my cleric could keep me healed' :)

Gennerik
08-30-2007, 07:49 PM
No, the quote, "If I have to break out a wand, that normally means that I haven't done a good job managing my SP," is a great example of arrogance in presentation.

That's not arrogance. That's just me having a good idea of what my character is capable of, in pretty much every quest that I've taken my Cleric on (of near level... I've taken him on some much higher quests and had problems), I've had enough SP to keep people healed without having to worry about recalling or resorting to wands. I think trying to play down the fact that I have a good sense of my SP and what I can do with it would just be false modesty. :rolleyes:


The quote you are referring to here, "if they continue, they die," is an example of arogance in content. The following quote, "someone can run them back to the shrine if they want," is actually far more extreme in my opinion...

No, "if they continue, they die" is just plain fact. They're already taking up so much of my attention that the rest of the party is suffering, so if I shift my priorities away from them and they don't change their tactics, it's bound to happen.

And what's wrong with running back to the shrines? Since they changed the Resurrection shrines, I almost run everybody back to the shrines to raise them. Probably the few exceptions to this are Raising in the heat of battle, if we haven't gotten to a shrine yet, or if it's very far away, or if it was something that I neglected to do that caused their death. Otherwise, stones go back to the shrine and I'll heal them back up when people get back (or before we leave if I'm the one running). I don't see how that's that extreme. That't frugal (and probably why I don't run out of SP, though I do try to keep everyone alive to prevent having to make that decision).

NameisToad
08-31-2007, 09:25 AM
OK, boss.

Feeling that breaking out a wand is a small failure on your part is not arrogance. Stating it the way you did is the reason I called it "arrogance in presentation."

The line, "if they continue, they die," implies that you will cease healing them as a punishment for (playing poorly, being rude, not being effective, whatever the insult of the day is) and that implication is what makes it arrogant. When I am healing, and there are two mana sponges in the party, they frequently die. I frequently use up a wand or so along with all my spell points trying to keep them from dying. I usually succeed in keeping them (and everyone else) alive until I'm out of spell points. After I run out, the sponges usually die while the rest of the party continues on and succeeds with the quest. Depending on the mission, I may use a rez scroll or I may ask them to hold on until the next shrine.

Taking people back to the shrine for a rez is not arrogance. Saying that, "someone can run them back to the shrine if they want," implies that you don't care what happens to that individual any more, and you don't plan to interact with hmi/her any further. The arrogance is in assuming that you can mete out justice simply by refusing to do your job with regards to that one character any more. If you had said, "a quick trip to the shrine usually gets their attention," or something along those lines, I would not have quoted that section. :)

Casta
08-31-2007, 03:31 PM
Question Casta: does playing a cleric influence your playstyle as a melee?

Seriously, do you zerg more because you know what a cleric is capable of?

Or do you have a little more patience and consideration?

I ask because my first capped was a cleric and man, I zerg with my melees because 'my cleric could keep me healed' :)

My first cleric is only lvl 5 now so it hasn't changed my playstyle yet at least, my barb will always zerg because I don't like sitting around watching rage get wasted. If I was to build another tank now I think I would build it very differently.

Gennerik
08-31-2007, 05:46 PM
OK, boss.

Feeling that breaking out a wand is a small failure on your part is not arrogance. Stating it the way you did is the reason I called it "arrogance in presentation."

I slightly disagree, but I can see where you are coming from, so ok.


The line, "if they continue, they die," implies that you will cease healing them as a punishment for (playing poorly, being rude, not being effective, whatever the insult of the day is) and that implication is what makes it arrogant. When I am healing, and there are two mana sponges in the party, they frequently die. I frequently use up a wand or so along with all my spell points trying to keep them from dying. I usually succeed in keeping them (and everyone else) alive until I'm out of spell points. After I run out, the sponges usually die while the rest of the party continues on and succeeds with the quest. Depending on the mission, I may use a rez scroll or I may ask them to hold on until the next shrine.

I don't let them die. Just I stop focusing all my healing energies on them, which normally means that if they continue to charge in and get surrounded, they'll die. I'll keep healing them (until I'm out of SP at least, and normally until I'm out of wands, though that's dependent on how quickly they are making me blow through charges), just I stop worrying when I see large chunks of their HP bar disappear and try to focus on the party as a whole, not just keeping the SPonge alive. Basically, I'm about the same as you are, just I wrote it very briefly because I didn't have much time to be verbose.


Taking people back to the shrine for a rez is not arrogance. Saying that, "someone can run them back to the shrine if they want," implies that you don't care what happens to that individual any more, and you don't plan to interact with hmi/her any further. The arrogance is in assuming that you can mete out justice simply by refusing to do your job with regards to that one character any more. If you had said, "a quick trip to the shrine usually gets their attention," or something along those lines, I would not have quoted that section. :)

I'll clarify my statement:

At that point I'll let them know (They are taking up too much SP and I won't be able to keep up with healing them unless they change their tactics), and if they continue (Using the same tactics which are causing me to essentially waste SP), they die (Because I'm not going to sacrifice the party for one person) and someone (Alive, myself included) can run them (The dead person) back to the shrine if they (The dead person again) want (Or they can wait until the next shrine unless we need their skills, at which point we can run them back to the shrine or maybe I'll raise them if I can spare the SP, but if I'm already running low on SP, I probably won't cast Raise Dead).

Arnya
08-31-2007, 07:08 PM
My first cleric is only lvl 5 now so it hasn't changed my playstyle yet at least, my barb will always zerg because I don't like sitting around watching rage get wasted. If I was to build another tank now I think I would build it very differently.

Good answer :)

NameisToad
08-31-2007, 09:01 PM
I'll clarify my statement:

At that point I'll let them know (They are taking up too much SP and I won't be able to keep up with healing them unless they change their tactics), and if they continue (Using the same tactics which are causing me to essentially waste SP), they die (Because I'm not going to sacrifice the party for one person) and someone (Alive, myself included) can run them (The dead person) back to the shrine if they (The dead person again) want (Or they can wait until the next shrine unless we need their skills, at which point we can run them back to the shrine or maybe I'll raise them if I can spare the SP, but if I'm already running low on SP, I probably won't cast Raise Dead).

To me, the meaning of this is completely different from what you originally wrote. This isn't arrogant, but what I got out of your other post certainly was. Maybe it's time we chalked it up to a miscommunication and let it drop so Casta and Arnya can have the thread? :)

Pyromaniac
09-02-2007, 04:48 AM
Some good thoughts early on in this thread (i skipped the last bunch of pages).

1) You first
2) DPS barbarian/fighter type
3) Caster
4) Other melee types
5) Another cleric in your group


Its not selfish to keep yourself alive first - if you're dead nobody gets healed. Look at the killcounts to get an idea of what fighter type is getting aggro by doing the most DPS - its likely the barbarian with a greataxe.

Casters generally can move/instakill things if they're in trouble, though again if its firewall time they move up in priority if their pulling aggro.

For me it comes down to - You do DPS and Kills, you get aggro and you get heals. If you don't kill anything but get tons of aggro I hope you carry pots.

Hvymetal
09-02-2007, 10:44 PM
The only thing I can say is that Heavy Fort is not quite as common as some have posted. I have been trying to score a hvy fort belt or ring for my 10 ftr before she hits 11 for a week now, no luck not a single one been on the AH that I have seen. Ore has been going for about 20-50k pp on the AH for 15 and not too many running BAM anymore.

I have Hvy. Fort on my 2 14 Tanks (1's WF with the docent of defence from invaders, and my drow pally has ancient band), but the stuff is not necissarily falling off of trees. Most my rogues don't have hvy fort cause my slots are just that precious & or don't have enough yet. Please realize they do not drop off of and may not be quite so easy for every single melee to aquire out there.

Arnya
09-02-2007, 11:36 PM
To me, the meaning of this is completely different from what you originally wrote. This isn't arrogant, but what I got out of your other post certainly was. Maybe it's time we chalked it up to a miscommunication and let it drop so Casta and Arnya can have the thread? :)


///ALL YOUR THREADS ARE BELONG TO US!!!///

Gennerik
09-04-2007, 08:05 AM
To me, the meaning of this is completely different from what you originally wrote. This isn't arrogant, but what I got out of your other post certainly was. Maybe it's time we chalked it up to a miscommunication and let it drop so Casta and Arnya can have the thread? :)

I can see why you said as you did. Ok, Casta and Arnya, you two have fun. Though I do have to admit that I normally don't worry about myself nearly as much as other party members. I think the only time that I do is when people are fighting around me and we get hit by an AoE attack, where I'll throw out a Mass Cure spell. Otherwise, I've found it better to not heal myself, as it just gets more hate on me, unless they are stuck on me (such as when the main tank dies or with Undead that I hit with a healing spell).

HumanJHawkins
09-04-2007, 02:02 PM
Regarding the "I heal everyone equally and if some are taking too much damage, they can die" people:

I mainly play fighters. Meian is a max defense fighter who obviously takes a lot less damage. Unfortunately, this means she also DOES a lot less damage too. Bloodbath is a max DPS two weapon fighter who frankly, takes a lot of damage. But he also dishes out the damage at an insane rate.

So under this heal everyone equally plan, Meian will be happy... Always topped off. Swinging like crazy, but not doing a heck of a lot of damage. And some poor tank next to her will probably end up dead. Then, because she can't finish the baddie off quick and because she might not even have agro, the baddie is going to run to the back and kill the archer and then kill you, the Cleric.

But if it were Bloodbath in there, I guess you might let him die so that the baddie can (rinse and repeat) go kill the archer and then kill you? The alternative is to make a larger investment in healing the high DPS tank who is really capable of ending the battle A.S.A.P. so you don't have to keep healing everyone else over a longer period of time.

In other words, 100 SP spent healing a high DPS fighter like Bloodbath might save you 50 points each for 3 other combatants like Meian. You have to understand that not everyone takes a lot of damage without giving value back.

NameisToad
09-04-2007, 02:24 PM
In other words, 100 SP spent healing a high DPS fighter like Bloodbath might save you 50 points each for 3 other combatants like Meian. You have to understand that not everyone takes a lot of damage without giving value back.

I've played several Fighters and Barbarians. This type of situation/thinking is exactly why I created this thread, and exactly why I heal the way I do.

Nero
09-05-2007, 11:24 AM
First off before I get flamed to who knows where and blacklisted and probably never healed again....

1) I am a main Sorcerror
2) I also play a good fighter
3) I have had plenty of experiences as a mana spounge barb. (Didnt like it)
4) I usually take enhancements to make it easier to be healed.
5) I want to make a cleric.

Anyways.

One thing that probably adjusts the battlefield triage especially towards late game is the differences in hit point amounts.

Most well built sorcs especially humans have high constitution and high hitpoints I used to be quite shocked when I found out how low on average cleric hitpoints tend to be in comparison to my own sorcerror. With 228 Hitpoints at level 14 it surpasses most non battle clerics.

My 2 copper piece is this. Most clerics seem to believe arcane casters have the lowest hitpoints while more and more recently that is no longer true. The days are long gone when a simple cure light or cure mod could heal me to full. I frequently have to tell clerics I haven't grouped with to not use cure lights on me. I feel bad for saying it but still compare the difference.

7-8-12 ish casts of cure lights vs. 1 -2 casts of Heal?

Now I'm not saying anything down on behalf of the skill of the clerics (most clerics I'm with catch on really quick and everythings fine.) Its almost like I should hang a sign out. I have died a few more times then I'd like because I am group with a cleric I have never been with before and then I draw agro due to my firewall for some reason not killing as fast as I'd like or maybe I badly aimed a CC spell or otherwise and draw agro. So what ends up happening is mid fight my health gets low and I see this. (Combat): CENSORED's cure light wounds heals you for 23 points.
Then bam a giant normal hits me for 25-30 or what not and my I'm even farther below.

Now don't blame me too much for the agro I try really hard to mitigate damage to the party. I pass out displacements resists haste. I cast jump on myself but sometimes It just doesn't work out. I have had clerics stop healing me because they get the wrong impression that I'm an agro magnet and aren't worth anything.

In the end with a 500 damage every few second firewall it still takes a few seconds of time for the mobs to die. At which time I draw insane agro.
Also even with crowd control If i cast hypno and that one caster saves I also have supreme agro thanks to the recent adjustments with ranged cc and agro.

I had one bad experience because the cleric stopped healing me and I kept trying to keep the party nice and safe saying fight in my firewall etc. I kept dying after a party wipe that happened the very next fight while I was dead. (No cc no dps.) They reformed and decided I was the hindrance. The cleric had plenty of mana. He just misinterpreted my need and thought I was a waste.

I am usually worth the mana.

Compare.

10 second fight where I am the only one hurt.(usually by at least 100 points no one else is harmed)

Or

1 min fight where everyone is damaged and I am dead because the cleric stopped healing me the previous fight.

Summary: Arcane casters *usually* have the highest effectiveness as far a damage dealing killing or crowd controlling. Late game they also have some decent hitpoints to go with it. But rediculously low ac and 50-70% miss chance just doesn't mean much. However our life usually means much easier time then without us.

Sorry if my rant seems pointless mute redundant etc. Just please don't hate me for posting the way I see it. I just thought Id bring up the view from the sorc point of view which seems to be neglected.

Casta
09-05-2007, 04:43 PM
Summary: Arcane casters *usually* have the highest effectiveness as far a damage dealing killing or crowd controlling. Late game they also have some decent hitpoints to go with it. But rediculously low ac and 50-70% miss chance just doesn't mean much. However our life usually means much easier time then without us.


The difference is most casters use pk/fod alot and that gets you almost no agro. A caster that dose alot of firewall and cone of cold normally can't maintain that sort of damage for a hole quest, or chooses not to because they know it will get them killed.

As most people have said here its all situational, for example the gatekeeper and summoning him is a caster fight healers would be more focused on the casters but somewhere like the beginning of pop i almost never see casters die, its melee that takes damage if anyone dose.

Pyromaniac
09-09-2007, 06:00 PM
My main is a Sorc as well, so they're not forgotten :)

I've listed Casters as the #3 priority as they generally can jump/displace move out of the way more than the DPS barbarian can. In bursts my caster can out DPS my barbarian.

My sorc is a nuker, with insta-kill the second priority. If I'm in trouble I can generally nuke my way out of it, but I'm also not super squishy with a 220ish hp build.

Arcanes with 90hp soaking wet (and yes there are some out there that are at whatever the minimum possible hp are at lvl 14), they're likely to die painfully and often. They're more or less a one-shot for a lot of the mobs. I don't know where they rank on healing priority, maybe #7 Resurrection?

Gennerik
09-10-2007, 08:16 AM
Nero, you make some good points. Sorcerers normally do have more HP than their Wizard counterparts. I normally start of casting a Cure Light Wounds on them and see how well that does. If it only heals a small portion of HP, then I move on to Cure Moderate Wounds. Though I still keep Heal reserved for the more melee-oriented classes or for when someone is really in trouble, just because even at 228 HP it'd be complete overkill to cast a Heal on you and it takes too long to toggle the Empowered Healing off and then back on (during fights). But after battles, I would still use Cure Light Wounds to top you off. Squishier classes I normally do try to keep full on HP, just because they are the ones that normally need all their HP when things get stuck on them.