PDA

View Full Version : Make Clerical Healing Spells Cost No SP.



Dingo123
08-27-2007, 06:07 AM
Listen... Clerics don't have enough SP.

They don't. They live off wands, they live off scrolls.

Whatever.

They don't have enough SP.

Clerics hardcore spec'd just for healing often have not enough SP.


So...

Just let Clerics cast their spontaneous healing spells for free.


Seriously. It would dramatically improve the game.


Listen, eventually it becomes an issue of how deep the Clerics pockets are... not skill... not SP management... but how many wands you have on you... how many heal scrolls.

It's got to stop.

So make Clerical healing free.

Test it.

Try it.

See for yourself.

Sojourner
08-27-2007, 06:17 AM
If you're spending money as a cleric, you're doing something wrong. Clerics don't have tons of mana, but they certainly have enough to get the job done without having to rely on wands and scrolls.

You should be able to make to to level 10-12 with only a dozen wands or so. And even in the end-game missions you should only be using a wand every 4 or 5 missions. Scrolls you should be using even less of. Scrolls are emergency backup.


I generally carry:
* Remove Poison Wand
* Lesser Restoration Wand
* Remove Blindness Wand
* Maybe a Remove Disease wand, but can't remember for certain
* 3 CSW Wands
* 30 Raise Dead Scrolls
* 30 Heal Scrolls

The scrolls are mostly carried for Titan Raid or Reaver Pre-Raid, don't think they get used anywhere else.


Take a look at your playstyle, figure out where you are using most of your scrolls and wands, and then quit doing it.
* Don't top off party members, its a waste of manna.
* Get them to about 80-90% health and call it good.
* Max our your heal skill or get a heal item and get everyone to rest next to you.
* Use your offensive spells when doing so will cost less mana than it would to heal people afterwards otherwise
* Let the pallys and rangers do some of the simple buffs like resist energy

.

Dingo123
08-27-2007, 06:34 AM
If you're spending money as a cleric, you're doing something wrong. Clerics don't have tons of mana, but they certainly have enough to get the job done without having to rely on wands and scrolls.

You should be able to make to to level 10-12 with only a dozen wands or so. And even in the end-game missions you should only be using a wand every 4 or 5 missions. Scrolls you should be using even less of. Scrolls are emergency backup.


I generally carry:
* Remove Poison Wand
* Lesser Restoration Wand
* Remove Blindness Wand
* Maybe a Remove Disease wand, but can't remember for certain
* 3 CSW Wands
* 30 Raise Dead Scrolls
* 30 Heal Scrolls

The scrolls are mostly carried for Titan Raid or Reaver Pre-Raid, don't think they get used anywhere else.


Take a look at your playstyle, figure out where you are using most of your scrolls and wands, and then quit doing it.
* Don't top off party members, its a waste of manna.
* Get them to about 80-90% health and call it good.
* Max our your heal skill or get a heal item and get everyone to rest next to you.
* Use your offensive spells when doing so will cost less mana than it would to heal people afterwards otherwise
* Let the pallys and rangers do some of the simple buffs like resist energy

.


*I* don't even play a Cleric... it's the Clerics who are so often griping about being perpetually out of mana and or wanding.

Oran_Lathor
08-27-2007, 06:40 AM
Nowhere close to signed. Clerics are already among the most powerful classes in the game when played to their potential. Clerics who are broke need to A) Learn to play better B) Learn to avoid terrible group mates or C) Learn to accept the consequences of their not learning the things listed in A and B.

Dingo123
08-27-2007, 06:46 AM
Nowhere close to signed. Clerics are already among the most powerful classes in the game when played to their potential. Clerics who are broke need to A) Learn to play better B) Learn to avoid terrible group mates or C) Learn to accept the consequences of their not learning the things listed in A and B.


Nothing kills fun play faster than elitism.

The game not fun for you?

WELL JU SAWK!!! GOEZ HOME N LRN 2 PLY!


TEH GAYM IZ FYNEZ. YA A LOTTA PPL AR LEVING BECUZ TEHY SAWK!!!

SHURE WE HAV SRVR MERGZ... BECUZ U ND TO LRN 2 PLAYZ!!!!1!!22!!1!

How often do you see a Cleric cast Flamestrike? or Dismissal? Hell, SOUNDBURST?

The vast majority of the time I see a Cleric I see that cleric standing around doing not much of anything. Just waiting for a little red bar to go down.

SP is a straight jacket.

There are so many options available to Clerics but they do not pursue them ebcause of their limited spellcasting points.

Tenkari_Rozahas
08-27-2007, 06:57 AM
you want a char that can heal and still have SP to cast other spells? Get a Dmarked Halfling cleric with a level of sorc. plenty of SP to go around.

Anastasios
08-27-2007, 07:06 AM
Nowhere close to signed. Clerics are already among the most powerful classes in the game when played to their potential. Clerics who are broke need to A) Learn to play better B) Learn to avoid terrible group mates or C) Learn to accept the consequences of their not learning the things listed in A and B.

Listen to this clown, lol, and don't forget D) A cleric does whatever it takes to keep his group going, and if that means having to spend some coin, then by all means do so.

The best clerics in this game pay the most coin than any other player in this game for supplies coz they are the ones doing the hardest quests, and any one of them that whines deserves to be hooked up, if any of you are grouped with a cleric that has been taking care of you, why wouldn't you throw him some loot, some coin or even a cure wand???

As for no SP for heals, you need to understand that will never happen, why even bring that up when there are already methods to avoid using SP for heals, albeit it costs money, if that is how the cleric rolls, then you got a good cleric who understands his job.

Dingo123
08-27-2007, 07:13 AM
you want a char that can heal and still have SP to cast other spells?

That's EXACTLY what I want.

If Clerics were allowed to chuck around some more of those interesting spells a bit more freely they wouldn't HAVE to be healbots. The cleric class would imrpove as a whole and more poeople would want to play them.

More people playing Clerics means less wait for the team (Yes, yes save your elitist "We don't need no Cleric!) ****.

Fine, good for you, everyone else does.

The more Clerics playing the more teams that will spring up around them....

Consider you have 15 players. Under the current system we'll say 2 of them are Clerics.

One Cleric per team, team of 6... so 12 guys have a team... 3 don't.

Now, let's say under the new system just one more guy rolls a Cleric... now we're looking at a 3/15 split... so now we have 3 teams, with 5 players.

Everyone wins.

But you only have five players!

Well now that Cleric doesn't have to be a healbot and can be much more pro-active in combat and be less of a blank file.

BUpcott
08-27-2007, 07:38 AM
Nothing kills fun play faster than elitism.

The game not fun for you?

WELL JU SAWK!!! GOEZ HOME N LRN 2 PLY!


TEH GAYM IZ FYNEZ. YA A LOTTA PPL AR LEVING BECUZ TEHY SAWK!!!

SHURE WE HAV SRVR MERGZ... BECUZ U ND TO LRN 2 PLAYZ!!!!1!!22!!1!

How often do you see a Cleric cast Flamestrike? or Dismissal? Hell, SOUNDBURST?

The vast majority of the time I see a Cleric I see that cleric standing around doing not much of anything. Just waiting for a little red bar to go down.

SP is a straight jacket.

There are so many options available to Clerics but they do not pursue them ebcause of their limited spellcasting points.

I cast Comet Fall, Greater Command, Destruction, and Blade Barrier on a regular basis and still have enough SP to heal. And soundburst just isn't that effective when you have spells like comet fall and greater command, that why you don't see it.


Listen... Clerics don't have enough SP.

They don't. They live off wands, they live off scrolls.

Whatever.

They don't have enough SP.

Clerics hardcore spec'd just for healing often have not enough SP.


So...

Just let Clerics cast their spontaneous healing spells for free.


Seriously. It would dramatically improve the game.


Listen, eventually it becomes an issue of how deep the Clerics pockets are... not skill... not SP management... but how many wands you have on you... how many heal scrolls.

It's got to stop.

So make Clerical healing free.

Test it.

Try it.

See for yourself.

LMAO. My cleric whom I have been playing since release carries two CSW wands, 50 Heal Scrolls, 25 Raise Dead scrolls. All of which I hardly use. I disagree with your post. With that said there is a point where it cost a bit to be a cleric (I found it was level 8-10; depending on what quest or series was being run). We don't need our heal spells to be free, some cleric just need to learn that the red bar doesn't have to always be full.

llevenbaxx
08-27-2007, 07:46 AM
I think clerics are just about right also. I used to blow through my sp fairly quick as an offensive caster type healer. Took some refining on my end in the picking my spots where spells are and are not neccessary. You cant seriously make healing free though, it would trivialize the whole game.:)

If people are in constant need of healing, they are not using team tactics, are not prepared for quests(proper resists/buffs) or are simply in over their head(quest level). As the cleric you have to make it clear you are not a crutch for other players to content which is well over their heads. If you go along on quests in these types of scenarios, you do so at the cost of additional plat. Its always your call though.

There is a balance of offensive casting and healing to be had though, you just have to find it.

Dingo123
08-27-2007, 07:46 AM
I think clerics are just about right also. I used to blow through my sp fairly quick as an offensive caster type healer. Took some refining on my end in the picking my spots where spells are and are not neccessary. You cant seriously make healing free though, it would trivialize the whole game.:)


Don't you get it... HEALING IS ALREADY FREE.

The ONLY real difference between what I'm proposing and the system that exists currently is that it costs the Cleric less money.

Dingo123
08-27-2007, 07:47 AM
LMAO. My cleric whom I have been playing since release carries two CSW wands, 50 Heal Scrolls, 25 Raise Dead scrolls. All of which I hardly use. I disagree with your post. With that said there is a point where it cost a bit to be a cleric (I found it was level 8-10; depending on what quest or series was being run). We don't need our heal spells to be free, some cleric just need to learn that the red bar doesn't have to always be full.


If you don't need them... why carry them? Why have them at all? Oh, wait, in case you... wait for it... wait for it..

In case you DO need them.

And if they never came in handy, you wouldn't keep them around.

Gennerik
08-27-2007, 07:47 AM
I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about. If you tend to see Clerics just sitting around, that's probably because they've created their characters to do something other than combat (Probably lower Wisdom and higher Charisma for DVs and the like). Either that, or people just don't feel like casting other spells because they don't feel they do enough damage. And those people that are often complaining about spending so much money are probably the same ones that have almost full SP and start off using Wands and/or scrolls.

Personally, I'm a Flame Strike, Destruction, Greater Command, Soundburst, Searing Light, Cometfall, Blade Barrier casting fiend and I pretty much don't use wands unless things get really ugly (and that rarely happens). I think the last time I bought wandswas probably about 3 months ago, and I buy 3 Cure Serious Wands at a time. If you're efficient at healing and know what you're doing, then you can easily make it through just about every quest without ever having to touch a wand or scroll and still have plenty of SP to play around with.

BUpcott
08-27-2007, 07:54 AM
If you don't need them... why carry them? Why have them at all? Oh, wait, in case you... wait for it... wait for it..

In case you DO need them.

And if they never came in handy, you wouldn't keep them around.

Learn to read, I said I hardly use them. Maybe I should have used different wording
I rarely use them.
It is seldom that I use them.
I scarcely need them.
I hardly ever actually use them.

Yes I have them in case I DO need them. But I DON'T buy them that often. Maybe once a month, if that.

The point was that since <insert your choice from the above>, the cost is extremely minimal (low, cheap). Therefore I am not spending all my money on wand or scrolls, in turn not whine that I am broke (which I am not).

There is no need to make spontaneous spells free. Call it elitism. Call it experience but if you rely on wands and scrolls because you can;t manage your SP then too bad for you pay the price. It just takes some learning.

Dingo123
08-27-2007, 07:55 AM
I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about. If you tend to see Clerics just sitting around, that's probably because they've created their characters to do something other than combat (Probably lower Wisdom and higher Charisma for DVs and the like). Either that, or people just don't feel like casting other spells because they don't feel they do enough damage. And those people that are often complaining about spending so much money are probably the same ones that have almost full SP and start off using Wands and/or scrolls.

Personally, I'm a Flame Strike, Destruction, Greater Command, Soundburst, Searing Light, Cometfall, Blade Barrier casting fiend and I pretty much don't use wands unless things get really ugly (and that rarely happens). I think the last time I bought wandswas probably about 3 months ago, and I buy 3 Cure Serious Wands at a time. If you're efficient at healing and know what you're doing, then you can easily make it through just about every quest without ever having to touch a wand or scroll and still have plenty of SP to play around with.



Alrighty, no wands... go do madstone crater, elite, no wands. No scrolls. And since you're so good at what you do, no pots of any sort for you or them. Oh, and you're the only one healing.

Come back.

Tell me how it went.

Dingo123
08-27-2007, 07:55 AM
Learn to read, I said I hardly use them. Maybe I should have used different wording
I rarely use them.
It is seldom that I use them.
I scarcely need them.
I hardly ever actually use them.

The point was that since <insert your choice from the above>, the cost is extremely minimal (low, cheap).


In other words..

You use them.

Roguewiz
08-27-2007, 08:02 AM
Listen... Clerics don't have enough SP.

They don't. They live off wands, they live off scrolls.

Whatever.

They don't have enough SP.

Clerics hardcore spec'd just for healing often have not enough SP.


So...

Just let Clerics cast their spontaneous healing spells for free.


Seriously. It would dramatically improve the game.


Listen, eventually it becomes an issue of how deep the Clerics pockets are... not skill... not SP management... but how many wands you have on you... how many heal scrolls.

It's got to stop.

So make Clerical healing free.

Test it.

Try it.

See for yourself.

What in the world are you smoking? Healing spells for free? Do you realize how exploitable that is?

Spontaneous spells in PnP DnD are not free, so why should they be free in DDO? They shouldn't. Clerics are the most powerful base class in PnP DnD (Base, meaning just the Players Handbook). They have the potential to being just as powerful if played/built right.

A few comments:
1) Not everyone needs "Heal" cast on them. Judge your heals based on the amount of HP someone has.
2) Not everyone needs to be healed at the end of a fight. IE, let the people that can use wands or heal, top themselves off.
3) Wands and scrolls...Too expensive? Ask for wand/scroll donations, or ask the somewhat friendly Bard/Rogue to go buy you some (if they have a good Haggle)
4) Not every spell needs to be empowered, maximized, or whatever!

You must think beyond what is happening now. If Turbine did anything as stupid as allowing Clerics to cast healing spells for free, the 1st thing they would do is limit the affectiveness on heals on undead even more. The 2nd thing, would be to buff all undead. The 3rd thing might be something like giving all healing spells a cooldown.

So no, it would be the 2nd worst idea in MMORPG history to do something like that. It would break the game. (The 1st worst idea in MMORPG history is the NGE for Star Wars Galaxies...but that is an entirely different rant)


If you don't need them... why carry them? Why have them at all? Oh, wait, in case you... wait for it... wait for it..

In case you DO need them.

And if they never came in handy, you wouldn't keep them around.

Why have a lawyer if you don't need one?

Wait for it...
Wait for it...

In case you do need one!!!

BUpcott
08-27-2007, 08:03 AM
Alrighty, no wands... go do madstone crater, elite, no wands. No scrolls. And since you're so good at what you do, no pots of any sort for you or them. Oh, and you're the only one healing.

Come back.

Tell me how it went.

OMG one quest! And I know there may be a couple others, but we are talking overall here not specific quests. The vast majority of quest don't require a little extra attention.

Oh and I did do that quest on elite as the only healer. And probably before you even knew where the entrance was. Casted comet fall and healed the group, yea I used some heal scrolls, but not even close to enough that I would whine about spending money.

Anastasios
08-27-2007, 08:07 AM
So no, it would be the 2nd worst idea in MMORPG history to do something like that. It would break the game. (The 1st worst idea in MMORPG history is the NGE for Star Wars Galaxies...but that is an entirely different rant)



Why have a lawyer if you don't need one?

Wait for it...
Wait for it...

In case you do need one!!!

LONG LIVE SWG NGE!!!!! Lest we forget, lol, One of the worst days ever huh, lol, worst week ever by that matter, glad to see the reference.

Anastasios
08-27-2007, 08:12 AM
And by the way, just think back to how ez it used to be a cleric in GH anyways, LONG LIVE HOLY SMITE NERF!!!!!!!!! Lest we forget about that one two, richest my cleric had ever been.

blakbyrd
08-27-2007, 08:14 AM
Personally, I am seeing several inaccuracies amongst not only the OP here, but also some replies in opposition to him.

There are some problems with the cleric class, however most of them (in my opinion) are not in the class design, but with the player of those clerics. This is not to mean that the players are bad, rather their intention or attitudes don't work well for the cleric class. To further specify, the only comments I am really making here are in regards to the healing clerics, not the battle clerics, as they have plenty of threads of their own already.

A healing cleric can easily be the most active and busy member of a group, even if never entering into a battle themself. Playing a cleric can be very costly and very frustrating...it is not meant for everyone. Playing the healing cleric takes a certain type of person, and again not everyone finds that type of play fun, and apparently more people play clerics than people who find that style of play to be fun.

To be more specific, in regards to the OP, I do not think cure spells should be mana-free. Just think where the clerics would be if DDO went even closer to the D&D rules and only allowed you a certain number of spells from each level before having to rest instead of having mana which lets you cast many time more spells. Clerics also gain other benefits because of their lower mana count, which although usually ignored or taken for granted is partly why they get lower spell or mana counts. As some have mentioned, going mana-free isnt going to happen. All MMOs need money sinks and clerics tend to take the largest chunk of being that, but it's generally a false sense of need rather than the actual option to do so that it is.

As for those stating that a cleric should rarely ever need to resort to alot of wand or scroll usage, that is somewhat true and somewhat false. It really depends on your playstyle and attitude towards playing a cleric. It is true that you shouldnt need to spend much on such items when the cleric is exceptionally picky about how or who they play with (of which many do this, and it greatly lessens the clerics available to many groups, which is an adding factor to the bad name of clerics everywhere). It is true, that those clerics who only group with guildmates or specific friends will generally go through much less supplies than any other cleric, and by limiting oneself to such groups, is easy to claim that a cleric should not need such supplies or funding for those supplies. The false part comes in, because not every cleric is experienced, nor does every cleric decide that they will only play with certain people or groups (thankfully they all do not do this or a large partion of the game would find themselves with no available clerics ever).

As for the idea that clerics cannot cast offensive spells and be healers at the same time, while preserving mana, that too is false. They most certainly can, and in many situations, the use of such offensive spells can save alot of mana from not having to heal people as much. Knowing which mob to cast slay living on, or when to comet fall an oncomming group of mobs can save a ton of mana by making the kills easy on the group and requiring little to no healing being cast during the fight. Clerics have quite a few nice offensive spells that are very beneficial to the group as well as very beneficial to the cleric's mana. The determining factor to this, however, is knowing when to use them and when not to.

To be the most beneficial healing cleric to a group, many things must be combined and acted upon accordingly within any given group, and the group itself determines the values each thing has in importance. Again for those who only do guild groups, they do not have to give much thought to things as they know exactly how their friends play and they know what to watch for, and can negate many portions of trying to determine what holds the most importance. This also greatly helps in negating the necessity for lots of extra supplies in wands and scrolls. However, we all know that such groups are not going to happen, and there are many, many PUGs that will negate all such rules and expectations. Sadly though, many clerics will simply avoid those groups, and by doing so, it is very easy to say that there is no need to spend alot of money on items or you're simply playing poorly. There's a reason why such clerics wont join PUGs, and thats largely because they know very well that in doing so it will involve spending alot more on items to keep the group alive.

All in all though, to be the best healing cleric you can be relies on experience and quest klnowledge, and ifnally adding in an understanding of your group's make up (be it friends or strangers). All 3 things must be taken into account, however their individual importance is based upon your playstyle. Some clerics prefer to conserve mana and use wands and scrolls instead, while others reserve wands and scrolls as a last resort. Both styles work quite well, however one will be more costly than the other. Neither is wrong, just undertsand how you play and what your needs are. Try playing both sides, you might find the other more beneficial to you. Nothing will make playing the cleric easier than simple experience, as you begin to learn what is most effective where, when the group needs to be at full health and when it doesn't, etc. KNowing the quests is also very important, as you know what buffs are needed and which ones aren't, when you need to conserve mana and when you can dump it quickly, etc. Group makeup is also important. If you know your group and hwo each person plays it greatly lightens the load on the cleric and they know who to watch and take care of first. In a PUG, the place of the cleric becomes much more hectic, as you do not now how each person is going to play, who is going to be the one to run off, who is going to accidentally pull the next group of mobs before you are ready, etc. All of which equates to more mana getting spent unnecessarily. However this will happen in PUGs on a normal basis. Typically, PUGs tend to be the big reason so many clerics go into hiding. It is more costly in mana and supplies, and many PUGs are less likely to offer donations to cover these supplies to the cleric, instead leaving the cleric to foot the entire bill to help allow the group to succeed, which in itself is not entirely fair, but it happens alot. This also adds to the bad name of clerics, even though in these cases it isnt the cleric's fault, instead they become money conscious over mana conscious. We all know most quests will not produce enough in loot to cover the cost of even 2 cure serious wands, and many a cleric can find themselves broke if people don't help out or they dont have other characters to send money from.

All in all, the cleric is a great class, but probably the most abused. They are fully capable as they are now, if you are able to play it well, and again, not everyone can or wants to play that way...clerics are not for everyone. Most other classes are rather forgiving in their playstyles, whereas clerics do not get nearly as much room in their playstyles if they are to be a healing cleric.

On a final note, no...clerics are not required in every quest. In actuallity, clerics are not really required much at all, except for a few certain quests where people maintain a common method of finishing a quest (although alternatives are there, just that most dont use the alternative methods). Many classes can heal, and in good groups these other classes can fulfill all healing needs just fine. The problem comes in when people playing these other classes simply refuse to do the healing when needed. I've seen plenty of rangers, paladins and UMD rogues, who either dont know they could even heal or use wands, but who simply refused to even do it. In a good group a couple of these would be all that is needed, and that's not even taking into account the beneficial nature of having a good bard along.

Targitaj_Silverskin
08-27-2007, 08:17 AM
my sorc have not anoth sp for kill all monsters - hey make my spell's cost 0 sp:)

lol most stupid thread ive ever seen^)

Aesop
08-27-2007, 08:17 AM
um...no... sorrry i'd have more in depth reason but really that is just crazy.


now if you said you wanted them to inlude the Feat from Complete Arcane that let you sacrifice a permanent spell slot 8 levels higher to get one of your spells as a spell like ability usable once per round...then I'd say sure. Of course until 17th level you couldn't use that Feat anyway... but you'd then be able to have Cure Light Wounds that you could cast an infinite number of times for no mana cost.


I think the Feat is called Innate Spell. It has some prerequisites that are a little hefty too.. I think Silent, Still, and Quicken Spell


Anyway


I believe this suggestion would make the game far far far too easy. If other peopole in the group would just self heal a bit and help the poor cleric out I think it would make everyone's life easier.

Aesop

Hendrik
08-27-2007, 08:18 AM
*I* don't even play a Cleric... it's the Clerics who are so often griping about being perpetually out of mana and or wanding.

As a person the PLAYS a Cleric, a big, fat NO!

llevenbaxx
08-27-2007, 08:22 AM
Don't you get it... HEALING IS ALREADY FREE.

The ONLY real difference between what I'm proposing and the system that exists currently is that it costs the Cleric less money.

But... I thought it was free? :D

No really I think I get what your saying. Adventuring can cost as much or as little as you want it too. That is a fact. For all classes, you can buy a ton of useful but not neccessarily needed items. If you choose not to have them(while playing any position), you end up leanning on your party a little bit more. Most of this leanning gets put on the clerics shoulders for better or worse. If you didnt have to buff at all or cast cures between battles, would be hurting at any point for sp?

As a cleric, you have to find a playstyle that is both fun and profittable. Most of this(98% or so:)) depends on your party and the quests that party is trying to tackle(level 12-13 party in a level 16 quest? You will/should need some additional healing. Same as 6-7 level party in a level 10 quest). If you are constantly having to revert to wands/scrolls, the party is out of its league. Not trying to sound elitist by any means, but as a cleric you can limp a party through just about anything, but you will be trading plat directly for xps. The choice is yours.

Dharma
08-27-2007, 08:26 AM
Free heals would completely unbalance the game..

My main character is a cleric which I play often. I have 1295 sp and have no problem buffing, healing, destructing, and anything else I want to throw in the mix. (Symbol of Fear, G. Command...etc.) I don't use wands or scrolls nearly at all. I no longer accept money for them either.

If you can't complete any quest without using them including the Reaver Preraid which I typically have at least 1 unused shrine in. Then you need to learn to play better.

You are probably:
- Over healing
- Not using good heal efficient spells
- Not letting the tanks take enough damage before healing
- Topping off hp bars is what costs most clerics sp that they should spend, so don't do it.
- Battle Cleric spec'd (Str build cleric is ******** - If you wanted the sp to be a true battle cleric you would go for max sp so you could use your spells.)

The Healbot Build cleric is a poorly played extremely powerful class so forego STR up your WIS get the SP and cast for damage not wield a weapon.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-27-2007, 08:29 AM
If you don't need them... why carry them? Why have them at all? Oh, wait, in case you... wait for it... wait for it..

In case you DO need them.

And if they never came in handy, you wouldn't keep them around.

That would be the same reason my sorc carries backup wads and sp pots...

My first 1750 char was a cleric. That also means it was an untwinked char. Prior to the change in SPs I went through wands like crazy. After that I still went through them, but not too badly.

By L10 or L12 I also made enough between questing and donations (which I never ask for) that I was always doing just fine... I also learned by then to tell people to behave when they were being stupid and if they didn't, oh well, I carried them to the shrine.

When new areas got openned up in the GH I went through heal scrolls like toilet paper. On a general quest now I only run seriously short of SP if I've decided to go heavily offensive on my casting and not just contribute strategically to the offense.

I wouldn't mind a little more SP... I think it would be more fun if they got something between what a Wiz & Sorc get... but if Clerics had unlimited healing we would be a dominating force. I mean seriously, we'd outkill the rest of the party.



Alrighty, no wands... go do madstone crater, elite, no wands. No scrolls. And since you're so good at what you do, no pots of any sort for you or them. Oh, and you're the only one healing.

Come back.

Tell me how it went.

Done it. With a weak party I end up needing a wand to do some topups, but 1 wand (or a couple heal scrolls) tops. If it takes more than that...the party SUX big time and they need the cleric to step in and tell them what to do.


And a weak party is the biggest reason some clerics sit back and just heal. Some of them don't feel safe watching combat while they also try to keep track of bad party's idiot meters.

Gennerik
08-27-2007, 08:29 AM
Alrighty, no wands... go do madstone crater, elite, no wands. No scrolls. And since you're so good at what you do, no pots of any sort for you or them. Oh, and you're the only one healing.

Come back.

Tell me how it went.

As a matter of fact, I have done it already. I actually never use the Mnemonic Potions, so that isn't even an issue. Being the sole Cleric, I used about a wand of Cure Serious, though I also focused on mostly healing or Cometfalling things. The reason I know this is because it's one of the few quests where doing it on Elite means that I may have to use wands because of the giant skeletons. They make it difficult to use the Mass Cure Light/Moderate spells without getting hate and they hit everyone, meaning that you're going to need to heal the melees a lot.

AmsterdamHeavy
08-27-2007, 08:29 AM
We don't need our heal spells to be free, some cleric just need to learn that the red bar doesn't have to always be full.

/QFT

...and vice versa; the 300 hp tank doesn't need to be at full every second of the quest either.

"h3al!"

Rissten
08-27-2007, 08:40 AM
Another thing I do with my cleric that usally gets those kill counting tanks back in line and keep them from running away all crazy, is this simple rule go it alone die alone. I'll pick up the stone and carry it till we get to a shrine instead of resing them. this give them the opportunity to think about their actions. I don't chase people I usally stay with the largest group if they run off.

binnsr
08-27-2007, 08:40 AM
2) Not everyone needs to be healed at the end of a fight. IE, let the people that can use wands or heal, top themselves off.
QFT - My fighter carries 3 stacks of CSW pots and starts chugging them as soon as the battles over -- I view after-battle healing to be my responsibility.
Rather than rant over healing spells costing money, why don't you rant that not enough people are topping themselves off?



You should be able to make to to level 10-12 with only a dozen wands or so.


QFT again! I purchased 5 CSW (or maybe it was 6?) wands for my little cleric when she turned 5. She's lvl10 and has 3 and a half of those wands left. When my blue bar hits rock bottom, I simply say 'running on wands now' and my team usually tightens up for the few minutes it takes to get to a shrine.

Maybe thats because she rarely PuGs out -- running with a fairly consistent team can dramatically change your financial outlook.

Mercules
08-27-2007, 08:46 AM
How often do you see a Cleric cast Flamestrike? or Dismissal? Hell, SOUNDBURST?

The vast majority of the time I see a Cleric I see that cleric standing around doing not much of anything. Just waiting for a little red bar to go down.


At lower levels I use Soundburst and Command to great affect. Soundburst works wonders on mobs with low Fort saves and Command is good for those with low Will saves. One for caster and rogue mobs who can do good burst damage or hold, and the other for things like ogres, elementals, and giants who can all do a lot of damage.

Searing Light & Nibus of Light are great for those things that are hard to hit or have DR. Searing Light works very well on Undead.

The various alignment smiting spells can be very handy and Divine Power can turn a meek Cleric into something that can beat it's way out of a bad situation and an already combat focussed Cleric into a killing machine.

When we get to level 5 spells we start getting nasty. Slay Living drops casters quickly as it is a Fort Save. It's more powerful than PK as there is only one save, although the range is a bit closer. Greater Command turns a group of Giants/elementals into statues for 6-12 seconds(did you know you can Extend it?) and give melee a good chance of destroying them without taking damage. Dismissal can get rid of some nasty foes with the wave of a hand.

6th level spells. Blade Barrier, wow. Comet Fall, wow. Symbol of Fear, wow. I use them all. Blade Barrier is great for those mobs that are hard to hit or have DR. Throw up the Barrier and keep them moving through it. Comet Fall does damage and knocks mobs down. I have alternated it with Greater Command to keep a big group under control when someone pulled extra agro. Symbol of Fear is becoming a new favorite Crowd Control spell for my Cleric.

Then we get Destruction and things die. Symbol of Stunning can be great as well.

I don't just stand around and heal damage. I PREVENT it in the first place. Why? Because it is cheaper to kill a caster mob dead than to heal up the 4-5 teammates that would have taken a couple of AoE damage spells otherwise.

The other way I save SPs is not healing idiots. I watched a Fighter run through several traps chasing a caster mob further and further away from myself and the Sorcerer who were just waiting for it to come into range.

The Rogue in the group was disabling the trap and we all could have pulled back around the corner and killed the caster mob when they came around with little damage. The now nearly dead Fighter stood on the other side of the traps until disabled and then just continued to stand there waiting for healing. I finally broke down and tossed a Divine Healing on him and let him sit that out. Had he died I would have carried his stone to the shrine. If he didn't like it, well, tough. My concern is keeping the group upright and moving forward and wasting my SPs now means I won't have them when we all need them later.

When I am not the "healer" of the group I am ALWAYS able to heal myself. My WF has a splash of Wizard and wands. My Rogue and Sorcerer UMD wands. I also run a Bard and Paladin who are self healing. My Fighter is the only one with no access to wands, and she carries potions and USES them even when being healed. If I do something stupid(and I do that from time to time) I heal my own butt up.

Clerics would stop complaining about costs if people would start being responsible for themselves and stop expecting Clerics to "Shut up and heal." Why don't I play my Cleric in PuGs much? Because people expect me to show up with wands and Heal & Raise Dead scrolls and use them constantly. I refuse to. I will bring along several Cure Serious wands, about 15 Heal scrolls, and about 10 Raise Dead. -IF- I use a scroll then something has gone seriously wrong and we need me to or the quest is going to fail. Wands I use just to ease people's minds when I bust out the offensive magic and I don't mind using half a wand on a quest. I do not, however, go through multiple wands on a quest like some Clerics.

Laith
08-27-2007, 09:13 AM
if you want to better understand the issues of being a cleric: play one.

apply this rule anywhere it may seem appropriate.

next time a cleric complains about healing your group, remind them that they have a CC effect for each type of save:

fort: soundburst (yes, it works in GH on normal/hard just fine), destruction (the death of a caster well worth its weight in healing)
ref: cometfall
will: command, greater command, order's wrath, chaos hammer

... and a damage effect that can easily rival fire wall (blade barrier).

it may take a while for a cleric to stray from the tried-and-true tactic of healbotting. But, like finger of death + firewall, being reliable doesn't make it the best tactic in every situation.

Shrazkil
08-27-2007, 09:15 AM
Listen... Clerics don't have enough SP.

They don't. They live off wands, they live off scrolls.

Whatever.

They don't have enough SP.

Clerics hardcore spec'd just for healing often have not enough SP.


So...

Just let Clerics cast their spontaneous healing spells for free.


Seriously. It would dramatically improve the game.


Listen, eventually it becomes an issue of how deep the Clerics pockets are... not skill... not SP management... but how many wands you have on you... how many heal scrolls.

It's got to stop.

So make Clerical healing free.

Test it.

Try it.

See for yourself.

wow , i feel much dumber after reading that for some reason... WTB extra cromosone back, paying well.

Winded
08-27-2007, 09:36 AM
I have a capped Cleric. I hate when people who dont play a cleric say anything about clericing. Go away and build a cleric.

This thread has been a excercise in BS , as usual, with the Uber liars. Deflate your egos a bit and be honest for a change.

Ill set a challenge. For all those that say I never use scrolls or wands, prove it. Come with me, group up or shut up. All pugs , Raid preferred and not the wussy Reaver Raid.

There is nothing more useless than a heal bot. They are typically played by people who have never played a video game before. How absolutely boring. I feel sorry for ya to be so , so.... well boring. Healbots are for Girls that are playing this game cause their BFs do. ( laugh please... this is dribble anyway so why not laugh about it)

I prefer to be an active member of the group, a leader, a killer, a healer.

See how that was stated, "leader" first.
Most clerics I play with couldnt lead a group out a paper doll fight. And we wonder why other player classes have weird expectations of clerics.

The person using the Reaver Pre-Raid as an example - HAH( the loudest HAH, you;ll ever hear). Theres more shrines in there than any class could use.

If you dont use wands and scrolls , you probably dont use much in the way of other spells, and prefer to watch people take damage and complain about it than throw down some of the most powerful spells in the game.

Im building a new 32pt cleric. He is first and foremost a Spell slinger then a healer. Get used to it.

Mizyrlou
08-27-2007, 09:49 AM
My cleric main used to be what seemed perpetually five shades of broke with all the cure wands I'd blow through. That changed once I started running quests with a steady group of people. I had a better handle on playstyles and what thier rosters had as far as hp and damage dealing, as well as they knew what capabilities mine did.

My cleric's still not rich, but she's equally not desperate to grab whatever coin drops from a broken crate like she used to be.

Equally, knowing how well the CC lands really helped for what I call 'proactive healing' since if the mob's been greater commanded, it's too busy trying to get up to be whomping on the group.

And as far as Winded's comments, as much as I'd love to disagree, I really don't want to get the infraction point as well as I do need to head out to work.

Roguewiz
08-27-2007, 09:51 AM
I have a capped Cleric. I hate when people who dont play a cleric say anything about clericing. Go away and build a cleric.

This thread has been a excercise in BS , as usual, with the Uber liars. Deflate your egos a bit and be honest for a change.

Ill set a challenge. For all those that say I never use scrolls or wands, prove it. Come with me, group up or shut up. All pugs , Raid preferred and not the wussy Reaver Raid.

There is nothing more useless than a heal bot. They are typically played by people who have never played a video game before. How absolutely boring. I feel sorry for ya to be so , so.... well boring. Healbots are for Girls that are playing this game cause their BFs do. ( laugh please... this is dribble anyway so why not laugh about it)

I prefer to be an active member of the group, a leader, a killer, a healer.

See how that was stated, "leader" first.
Most clerics I play with couldnt lead a group out a paper doll fight. And we wonder why other player classes have weird expectations of clerics.

The person using the Reaver Pre-Raid as an example - HAH( the loudest HAH, you;ll ever hear). Theres more shrines in there than any class could use.

If you dont use wands and scrolls , you probably dont use much in the way of other spells, and prefer to watch people take damage and complain about it than throw down some of the most powerful spells in the game.

Im building a new 32pt cleric. He is first and foremost a Spell slinger then a healer. Get used to it.

Healbots are played by two types of people.
1: The social person. Who likes to group and such.
2: The person that wants to be "god" in the group and hold everyone's character lives in the balance. :p

Most are #2

bandyman1
08-27-2007, 10:03 AM
This is wrong on so many lvls I can't even reply.

/Not signed

Mad_Bombardier
08-27-2007, 10:08 AM
How much SP does it cost to heal the damage dealt by a Commanded giant? You guessed it, ZERO! Use your Cleric SP for buffs and offensive or crowd control casting and you won't need much SP for healing.

Sojourner
08-27-2007, 10:20 AM
The thing about running with pugs, is the cost for supporting them is all over the map.

Using Reaver Pre-Raid for exmple -- My cleric has ran that thing with pure pugs (zero guildies, friends, buddies, etc - 5 completely strangers) probably around 20 times.
I've ran it with pugs that donated 5 or 6 wands, 10k plat, and then ran the entire mission with me only using 3 wand charges and 1 scroll.
I've ran it with pugs that didn't donate a single copper, and it took all 30 heal scrolls, most my rez scrolls, and all my wands.
But, on average, with a decent pug that knows how to act fairly competent, that mission burns up about 2 wand, 10 heal scrolls, and half a dozen rez scrolls.

I carry enough to cover worse-case scenarios, but don't start to get worried until they start burning through multiples of the average.


The lesson here ---

If you are constantly using up scrolls and wands, no matter what mission you run or who you group with, whats the common denominator in all those groups you've been in? Probably you. Doesn't mean you're an idiot player or have a gimp build, just means you need to go back and look at your playstyle and strategies to see how you can improve.

For a cleric played efficiently, you should only be using a couple wands or scrolls here or there.
Once you've got that down, you realize a very important truth -
A cleric's costs are not based on how uber a build the cleric is, or how elite their gear is --- it is all a matter of how good their team is.
If you go into that reaver mission and only burn up one or two scrolls -- you weren't an awesome cleric, you were a good cleric supporting an awsome team.


Honestly, cleric costs are pretty low. And, probably on par with (or cheaper than ) what fighters are paying for equipment repairs and pots.

Zenako
08-27-2007, 10:34 AM
Sojourner speaks the truth...

My cleric usually incurs minimal costs during quests. I generally run with some skilled players with good gear. But when not, I speak up, I let others know what we should be expecting and what they should not be expecting.

even Madstone will be group dependant. Sometimes it can almost be a breeze, other times a royal pain in the butt.

PaintHorseCowboy
08-27-2007, 10:58 AM
Madstone crater on elite, no wand usage (by the cleric), no scroll usage (raise dead, heal, or otherwise), went just fine. We completed it with no deaths.

I did not run out of spell points. I am not a capped character. I do not have a +6 Wisdom item.

I do, however, have just over 1,200 spell points on him. I also have the potential for more as I can still turn level 14, eat a +2 Wisdom tome at 1,750 favor, and acquire a +6 Wisdom item. For the record, that's more than my level 14, xp and favor capped, wizard who is sitting at 1,218 spell points. By the way, my wizard has maximum intelligence but did not take improved mental toughness, electing instead to allocate his feat differently. Also, for the record, my cleric is heavily heal specialized, to the point of being called a "heal-bot" by some.

The idea of being able to cast something as critical as a heal spell for free is absolutely absurd. It goes hand-in-hand with the suggestion (a little further down the list) of allowing casters to cast combat spells for free.

Let's take a look at this using HEAL as an example. You have how many level 6 spell slots, three, maybe four (not sure as my cleric isn't xp capped yet). Using standard PnP rules, that means you could cast HEAL three times every shrine in this game. Now think about how many times you probably cast it between shrines.

Do you really want to continue complaining about this when, if they made the game play like PnP (which the stated intention as far as I'm aware was to make it play as closely to PnP as possible), you would be using even more wands and scrolls than you already do?

Fortunately, the developers realized that that type of system would be unworkable for an MMO, resulting in the exacerbation of the "problem" you are describing. So they came up with the spell point variant which, in fact, works VERY well.

I respect your right to have and post your opinion, however I cannot agree with it. Personally, I have no spell point difficulties on my cleric. Yes, I carry scrolls. I carry several types of them in fact including, Heal, Raise Dead, Resurrect, and Greater Restoration. This probably stems from my time in the Boyscouts with the motto of "Be Prepared." However, at this point, the only ones I'm using on an even semi-regular basis are the Greater Restoration scrolls. The reason is, I do not have the spell memorized because I find I need other spells more often and have them memorized instead. On rare occasions I will use a Heal or Raise/Resurrect scroll but only if I am out of spell points with which to cast it. That only happens when things go particularly badly.

If you find yourself in many pickup groups, limit the number of scrolls/wands you will use/carry. If the group needs more healing, suggest they pitch a few pieces of platnium or wands/scrolls your direction. Any good group in PnP would help their cleric if he was having "financial difficulties" so it's not unreasonable to expect something similar here. I am not saying charge per heal, I am saying it's okay to ask for a small amount to defray the cost. Even those of us you have termed as "elitist", who are mostly self-sufficient and heal ourselves between battles, only requiring a CSW or Heal or two during heavy combat, will generally pitch a little cash your way if you ask in a polite manner. If they don't, not everyone has a team mentality and you can feel free to exercise your right not to group with them again. However, I'd suggest being careful of how much/how often you're using this as players, despite the popular opinion of some, do talk to each other. Sometimes about other players. If it looks like you're using this scheme to become "independantly wealthy" and taking advantage of other players generosity, you might find your source of income drying up. Personally, I fail to see how clerics can complain they are broke all the time. With the Charisma score and allocated skill points into Haggle, and a little item swapping, my level 13 Cleric, with no help from my other characters is sitting on a half million platnium. More than enough to buy your way through several adventures, no matter how badly they go.

I am also like most healing clerics in the fact that I hate seeing party members die. I will do the utmost to keep them on their feet, however, if a person is playing in a completely ignorant manner, I also have no problems ceasing to refill their mana sponge, watching them die, then pitching their stone at the next shrine we come to. If they elect not to use the rest portion of the shrine while I'm standing next to it (so they get the benefit of my heal skill), then they can drink their own potions to heal themselves. "What? You're not carrying potions on your Dwarven Barbarian? Hmm...sure you don't want to use that shrine?"

I've got deep pockets on my cleric, however, that does not mean that I reward unintelligent play with continued heals thereby reinforcing their play style. I am speaking mostly to/of the player who constantly over-rates their abilities, runs off alone, gets massive attention from mobs, then runs back screaming "HEAL ME!" Sorry mate, but you just went to the bottom of the list when you're so far away from the rest of the party, who incidentely is still mopping up the remainder of the fight you pulled to us previously, that your name is unselectable. I hope you brought some potions.

Again, I respect your right to have and post your opinion, but I cannot agree with it.

/not signed

Kalanth
08-27-2007, 10:58 AM
/HELL NO!

I just retired my 14th lvl Cleric (straight class is boring, but that is another conversation). Even though he only just barely hit 1000+ SP thanks to an item I never had a problem healing. To remove the SP cost would be to make the game so ungodly easy that no one would want to play it.

Dharma
08-27-2007, 11:04 AM
This is for Winded

Anytime you wanna do a run and see me use little to no wands and scrolls look me up. In addition, for your comment about the reaver preraid unless you read the entire thread don't comment on me. My reference was related to someone stating that is the only quest you should need wands/scrolls in GH. Which I endeavored to show as incorrect.

Khyber - Dhorin (14clr) 1295sp

Aspenor
08-27-2007, 11:05 AM
This has to be some kind of joke.

Roguewiz
08-27-2007, 11:11 AM
This has to be some kind of joke.

Dingo123
Community Member ----->Join Date: Aug 2007 <-----

binnsr
08-27-2007, 11:21 AM
I do, however, have just over 1,200 spell points on him. I also have the potential for more as I can still turn level 14, eat a +2 Wisdom tome at 1,750 favor, and acquire a +6 Wisdom item.
Was about to ask you about how you hit 1300 without a +2/3 tome and +6 item ..

the best I could figure for a 12clr with +1tome and +4/5 wis item was 1240 - that would be 30wis [18+1tome+3lvl+3clrwis+1hum+4item], all the enhancements and a magi item.

Absolute max, according to my calculations is: 1361 (34 wis , enhancements and wiz VII item*)

then I saw this: "Last edited by PaintHorseCowboy : 08-27-2007 at 11:05 AM. Reason: I typo'd the number of SP and just caught it. 1,200, not 1,300. " so never mind.. :D


* I've never seen one of these, but hear they exist..

Charmazal
08-27-2007, 11:32 AM
op: silly idea.

That's like asking wizards to have free crowd control spells because it's imposing on their nuke time.

I'd rather they dropped the price of the resistance spells or even heal spells but to completely abolish is just too far.

Think about this part too - if healing was free then everyone would have 1 level of cleric. Which then means pure clerics woulnd't get groups, then we'd be back upset about how tough clerics have it - and then another change - and then anotehr.. and it's a big circle of ****.

Leave it be. The best I've been able to do is get my groups to snag pharian resists before the level starts and thats about it.

Nott
08-27-2007, 11:35 AM
No SP? why not spam cast healing and so you never lose? What's that... too much delay between being able to cast cures? Turbine should reduce recast time to fix that. While they're at it, my easy button needs a recharge kthx~

Making healing have zero cost (SP / items / platinum / time / whatever) would be among the worst changes this game could ever see. Fortunately, Turbine, while not perfect in their decision making, is certainly astute enough to realize that.

teddok
08-27-2007, 11:35 AM
Bro April Fools day is still a few months away.
You are kidding right. I mean this is all a big farce right.

Please say your joking. I might have a exempt you from my no flaming rule if your not.

Steam313
08-27-2007, 11:40 AM
Ok, as a cleric and it being my first and only, I must say depending on your playstyle, yes a cleric doesn't have enough spell points, BUT you have shrines for that, scrolls, and potions!!! If your running out of SP in 2-3 small battles your either not buffing your group properly, your spell penetration is bad, your trying to take too much of a primary role, or your playing with a bad group. As my cleric is currently my one and only, I have amassed enough cash and goods to keep myself and my party alive for a very long time. (honestly if your a cleric worth your salt ASK YOUR GROUP FOR DONATIONS! 90% will help you out with wands/scrols/plat, I have even had people donate 100k pp just for 1 good no-death run!) If you research your toon, find out what gear works best for you play style and and what you want to do with that cleric, you can assume a hybrid (non-melee) role of support spellcaster WHILE healing. I did extensive research on these forums b4 i hit lvl 6 with my cleric to see what area i wanted to take him in. I foudn all of the gear in the static/non-static loot threads i wanted, wrote it all down on paper, and went OCD getting everything I needed, from the Invaders! healing mace, to my chaosguardes, to my black drasonscale plate all in less than one month. I never once bought anything from the auctions, everything was either traded from something i found or pulled personally.

I myself am an ocd bar filler, if its not full im not happy cause i feel like i'm not doing my job. I usually spend 20-30k plat on a full bag of CSW wands, i carry 20 raise dead scrolls, and i dont carry anything else but that and my gear and my reagents. no heal scrolls, no buff wands, nothing it all comes out of my SP pool and I still have the ability to buff, heal, and support cast when its necessary. (and all this geqar while it costs, it lasts well over a week!) I use destructon, Blade barrier, Symbol of fear and stunning, and banishment depending on the circumstances and i still am able to keep a party topped off with SP. I'm not teling your "LTP Scrub!" i'm simply enlightening you on the fact that yes, a cleric is a money sink. but if you think for just a second and take advantage that you are the REASON the group lives or dies, and simply and politely ask for small donations usually a group will either help you out or even go get you what you need! If you really want to play a cleric go ahead try it, its ture that its playstyle does not suit everyone and honestly if you want to be able to heal and have a massive spell pool to cast offensive stuff make a sorc/cleric hybrid and build a toon the way you want to. No one is making you do 14 straight lvls of cleric for EVERY spell in the Divine tree. You make your character the way you want, Splash a few lvls of sorc in there for the +sp*2 from items and get some basic well working offensive spells! or if you want a non-pirmary healer make a battle cleric and go melee/hybrid spellcaster.

In short, a cleric can be whatever you want it to be, from a pure heal-bot (which is the way mine is built) to a battle-cleric, to a support role caster its all on how you want to play it and gear it. Dont let people pigeon hole you into being a healbot if you dont wanna... politely tell them your not made for main-healing and ask they get a healbot in addition to you.

-Castar of Heals
Lv 14 Cleric
185 HP
1300 SP
28pt build

/end ramble

Lizzybrat
08-27-2007, 12:00 PM
*I* don't even play a Cleric...


I think this sentence says it all.

Vi'Aed
08-27-2007, 12:13 PM
With all due respect to the Op, I would be intensely against this idea. As I have stated in other threads, I think healing is far too easy as it is now.

The real issue is that the Cleric bears the brunt of party problems. If something isn't going well then the Cleric is spamming heals and quickly running out of sp. This can be mitigated with heavy expenditures in wands and scrolls. But that is the thing, the burden of problems ends up on the Cleric as the safety net of the party.

The problem might be (often is) with either other party members being sp drains or the party just not really being up to the quest. If a cleric is blowing through heal wands and scrolls maybe the party shouldn't be dong that quest.

As I have stated in other threads, this issue comes down to parties that shouldn't being doing quests are doing them bolstered by cleric consumables. My inclination would be to limit the availability (ala FW scrolls) of heal scrolls and wands above cure mod.

BurnerD
08-27-2007, 12:18 PM
My main is a cleric and I don't see an issue with spell points. I use a few wands here and there, and also some heal scrolls, but they are used by choice, and not necessarily by absolute need.

No matter what class you play it is always important to remember that you don't have to kill very monster and every mob by yourself! This is the main reason why casters of any type burn through all of the sp's quickly. A caster using good tactics casts cc or insta death spells when necessary rather than every encounter.. more often than not the fighters can handle the smaller mobs. When the balance of the encounter is off a greater command and a destruction or two from a cleric can be a great balancer, but when the fighters are squaring off against opponents they should be able to handle fairly easily there is no need to destruct or finger of death them. Likewise if the melee classes approach an encounter sensibly by letting the right person take aggro then the cleric and casters can once again cast more efficiently. Nothing like watching a ranger or rogue go grab aggro before the tank can.

Spell points are more than sufficient when tactics are employed. If you PUG the higher level quests (which I do frequently) then be prepared to spend a little plat.

Dkmafia
08-27-2007, 12:45 PM
Listen... Clerics don't have enough SP.

They don't. They live off wands, they live off scrolls.

Whatever.

They don't have enough SP.

Clerics hardcore spec'd just for healing often have not enough SP.


So...

Just let Clerics cast their spontaneous healing spells for free.


Seriously. It would dramatically improve the game.


Listen, eventually it becomes an issue of how deep the Clerics pockets are... not skill... not SP management... but how many wands you have on you... how many heal scrolls.

It's got to stop.

So make Clerical healing free.

Test it.

Try it.

See for yourself.

Tell your tanks to get some armor and your mages to stop casting PK and you will have plenty of mana.

Guildmaster_Kadish
08-27-2007, 12:50 PM
Bro April Fools day is still a few months away.
You are kidding right. I mean this is all a big farce right.

Please say your joking. I might have a exempt you from my no flaming rule if your not.

Exactly my thoughts... Dingo123 has made some other similar threads as well just recently... See "Rumor: Druids/Monks got the Boot" (How a player of less than a month has somehow gotten this idea I've no clue) and "I'm afraid of Sorcerors..." (Ummmm... suffice to say that without looking into the thread I thought that the only logical reason for such a title was PvP play).


Dingo123
Community Member ----->Join Date: Aug 2007 <-----

Interesting that he is suggesting such revolutionary changes to the game having not even experienced it for a month.

Master Kadish

Lebrac
08-27-2007, 12:54 PM
this has probably been said in this post but i don't feal like reading thehole thing cause it's just plane silly. but i will chime in and say a CLERIC that only heals is a CRAPY cleric... u save alot more mana by useing some of your CC spells taht u have witch are some of the TOP CC in the game to keep things from damaging your party and u have PLENTY of SPS to go around and then your not a healbot.

Vizer
08-27-2007, 12:57 PM
i play a cleric and this has to be a joke from the OP ....


lvl 13 and have 1036 ( with staff of magi i put on be for rest 1086) sp and on a group of six i spend justs under half sp on fire acid and other elm resist that the mobs are using also deathward on every one i give them mine cuz it 30 pts resist rather than 20 pt you get from house j/p and mass buffs shield of faith and aid and still got sp for heals and for comet fall gtr command and divine power once in awile

i will use wands to top off or back up heal when low on sp i reseve some sp for rezs when we find a shrine ill cast out us DV DH so that party mebers thet dont rest canve be full on HP and SP
(i want to go full clr any idea how to get more sp? thxs in advance)

teddok
08-27-2007, 12:59 PM
I can take my Bard through most any of these quests with out a cleric and have no problem keeping up with both the healing and the buffing NP using very little in the way of wands. (I keep forgetting about the big stack of Heal scroll she carries also if that is any indication of how rarly I use them.)
This is with my Bard. Now if a Bard can do it I see now reason why a cleric cant.

PaintHorseCowboy
08-27-2007, 01:27 PM
*I* don't even play a Cleric...


I think this sentence says it all.

I'm going to add just one more comment after reading the sentence quoted earlier about the fact the OP doesn't even play a cleric....

I will even go so far as to speculate that he's just mad because some cleric like myself found a giant mana sponge, quit healing him, and threw his stone at a shrine for the 10th or 15th time in a quest.

See post on Heavy Fortification items and where to get them discussed in previous Xoriat Server discussion.

BAM! It's either the sound of that hasted ogre knocking a home run shot with your head ... or ... the sound of your cleric's boot connecting with your arse in an effort to dislodge your head. Your choice really.

See also response further down:


You forgot one. Or it's the sound of your party throwing your soulstone against the shrine for the 15th time because you refuse to play smart and insist on acting like a complete idiot.

paintedman
08-27-2007, 01:45 PM
Truth be told, I only read the first and last page, okay not even the last page, but this is a case of good players and bad players. A cleric that groups with a regular group will build a camaraderie with his fighters, get to know their play style, as a fighter will know the healing potential with his given cleric. That synergy allows for harmonious healing as opposed to a pug in which sometimes fighters truly believe that it is merely their job to swing and the clerics to heal.

I group with pugs all the time; different players value their cleric in different ways. A very considerate seasoned fighter will carry pots of all sorts, especially when pug'in because he does not know the cleric, and inherently will not trust said cleric till his bacon is saved in a very miraculous way.

On the flip side, playing a cleric can be a very stress building character, knowing full well the well being of a party is your responsibility, while you may not be leading the group and have that responsibility, seeing a member die under your watch can hurt the cleric’s competence level.

So before any cleric with a good group says, "I do just fine, why don't you?" take a moment and realize that all clerics don't find that good group of guys to play with, and some clerics have to new mold fighters into effective fighters.

I dare say the class of cleric should carry with it some more benefits, in regards to healing, as I see a sharp decline in clerics. And no, we should not have to wand at all. The expectation that a cleric carry a set of wands is prudent, and unfortunately there is an undertow that is pulling that way, but better balance of sp and cost of healing needs to be addressed.

-paintedman

Luthen
08-27-2007, 01:47 PM
Listen... Clerics don't have enough SP.

They don't. They live off wands, they live off scrolls.

Whatever.

They don't have enough SP.

Clerics hardcore spec'd just for healing often have not enough SP.


So...

Just let Clerics cast their spontaneous healing spells for free.


Seriously. It would dramatically improve the game.


Listen, eventually it becomes an issue of how deep the Clerics pockets are... not skill... not SP management... but how many wands you have on you... how many heal scrolls.

It's got to stop.

So make Clerical healing free.

Test it.

Try it.

See for yourself.

Umm... not that I would ever pass up extra SP but my friend... clerics have plenty of SP. I have a 28 point build level 14 human cleric with 1270 SP and a 32 point build level 13/1 dwarf cleric/paladin with 1350 SP. I am an aggresive player in both melee style and casting style and I rarely run out of SP unless I know I can blow it all right before shrining. You're over simplifying things here.

Twerpp
08-27-2007, 02:54 PM
Make Clerical Healing Spells Cost No SP.....by implementing daily spell slots then we will have even less heals!

Twerpp
08-27-2007, 02:55 PM
Umm... not that I would ever pass up extra SP but my friend... clerics have plenty of SP. I have a 28 point build level 14 human cleric with 1270 SP and a 32 point build level 13/1 dwarf cleric/paladin with 1350 SP. I am an aggresive player in both melee style and casting style and I rarely run out of SP unless I know I can blow it all right before shrining. You're over simplifying things here.

ooh cool. Does the pally level give you signifigantly more points or was that due to the 32pt build/Dwarf enhancement? I like the idea of kind of battle cleric'ing out and having more sp because of it.

Tenkari_Rozahas
08-27-2007, 03:16 PM
ooh cool. Does the pally level give you signifigantly more points or was that due to the 32pt build/Dwarf enhancement? I like the idea of kind of battle cleric'ing out and having more sp because of it.

one level of pally gives no SP aside from what you ger from Mental toughness or Improved mental toughness.

Guildmaster_Kadish
08-27-2007, 03:18 PM
one level of pally gives no SP aside from what you ger from Mental toughness or Improved mental toughness.

Incorrect.

Master Kadish
P.S. I'm not an expert on the matter though, so I don't know the exact mechanic/calculation it uses. But a 13 cleric that takes 1 level of pally will recieve spell points other than those from the aforementioned feats.

Dingo123
08-27-2007, 03:24 PM
This is no joke guys.


As I said before... the difference between what's going on now, and what I'm talking about is minimal.

When you carry healing wands, scrolls, and the like into battle what are you doing but effectively extending your mana? You're paying for heals in cash rather than in sp.

Now, consider how much would actually CHANGE if healing was for free. Because, as mentioned above, that's largely what we do now. Everyone has oodles of mana, so they never run out apparently (I've never teamed with these people... but sure, alright.. whatever), unlike a great deal of other groups I've been a part of.

So, all that will change is that Clerics will now be freed up to cast more offensive spells and buffs. This means you won't NEED as much healing. See? The end rsult, really, is that you don't spend much more mana than you would under the normal system.

A single Cleric can only heal so much. What's the difference between my system and a Cleric who ahs 100 heal scrolls in their backpack? Seriously. Outside of cost. Is this game breaking? Should we limit the number of heal scrolls you can carry? If not, why not?

If FREE SP to Cast Heal is so ridiculously broken and wrong... why should people be allowed to run around with a backpack full of Heal Scrolls which are effectively FREE SP?

You people aren't making any sense.

Being able to spam sp free heal is broken! Broken I tell you!... but I do carry Heal Scrolls... because you know, sometimes I need them.

*facepalm*

lenric
08-27-2007, 03:27 PM
Listen... Clerics don't have enough SP.

They don't. They live off wands, they live off scrolls.

Whatever.

They don't have enough SP.

Clerics hardcore spec'd just for healing often have not enough SP.


So...

Just let Clerics cast their spontaneous healing spells for free.


Seriously. It would dramatically improve the game.


Listen, eventually it becomes an issue of how deep the Clerics pockets are... not skill... not SP management... but how many wands you have on you... how many heal scrolls.

It's got to stop.

So make Clerical healing free.

Test it.

Try it.

See for yourself.

Ya know having played my cleric main more than anything else I can tell you that I bought 5 wands of cure serious wounds over a month ago. After a few tempest spine, gianthold tor, crucible, invaders, and a dragon raid, you know how many wands I have left.....5....If you are going through wands like crazy then you are doing something wrong with your cleric. My guess would be spam casting cure spells on the barbarian when you know you could just wait for him to hit around half and fill him all the way up with one heal. Sp is/has never been an issue for me and I for one would think it stupid and horribly unbalanced to make healing spells have no cost. Just my 2 cents.

Mad_Bombardier
08-27-2007, 03:32 PM
This is no joke guys.

Outside of cost. Is this game breaking? Should we limit the number of heal scrolls you can carry? If not, why not?Yes, it's gamebreaking. D&D is based on spell management and your suggestion radically breaks that model.


If FREE SP to Cast Heal is so ridiculously broken and wrong... why should people be allowed to run around with a backpack full of Heal Scrolls which are effectively FREE SP?Now there is a real topic; availability of unlimited HP in the form of potions, wands, and scrolls. Note that I do not call it free SP, because it's only SP to classes that heal with spells. It's unlimited HP to everyone (including healers). It has been fervently debated before and will be debated again as long as the vendors are in the game.

isldur
08-27-2007, 03:36 PM
This is no joke guys.


As I said before... the difference between what's going on now, and what I'm talking about is minimal.

When you carry healing wands, scrolls, and the like into battle what are you doing but effectively extending your mana? You're paying for heals in cash rather than in sp.

Now, consider how much would actually CHANGE if healing was for free. Because, as mentioned above, that's largely what we do now. Everyone has oodles of mana, so they never run out apparently (I've never teamed with these people... but sure, alright.. whatever), unlike a great deal of other groups I've been a part of.

So, all that will change is that Clerics will now be freed up to cast more offensive spells and buffs. This means you won't NEED as much healing. See? The end rsult, really, is that you don't spend much more mana than you would under the normal system.

A single Cleric can only heal so much. What's the difference between my system and a Cleric who ahs 100 heal scrolls in their backpack? Seriously. Outside of cost. Is this game breaking? Should we limit the number of heal scrolls you can carry? If not, why not?

If FREE SP to Cast Heal is so ridiculously broken and wrong... why should people be allowed to run around with a backpack full of Heal Scrolls which are effectively FREE SP?

You people aren't making any sense.

Being able to spam sp free heal is broken! Broken I tell you!... but I do carry Heal Scrolls... because you know, sometimes I need them.

*facepalm*

Dude your a joke...period
If heal spells cost no spell pts who would play anything but a cleric.......
I think as a wizard all my buffs I give out should be free too....That's just dumb..Is the game too hard for you, oh wait you don't even play a cleric lol

My girlfriend has a cleric....She has more money than all of my characters put together....really poor cleric. Why is that oo maybe because a cleric is welcome on any quest, no waiting around.

If your so worried about clerics being poor maybe you should just buy a bunch of potions (like all good players should) and tell the cleric you can cover yourself.

Of course since you don't play a cleric maybe said cleric really isn't poor, or said cleric should run with different people once in a while to support the gimps he/she normally runs with.

Though I truly believe this was a joke post by the op just to get a reaction. Least I hope it was......

SkyGordan
08-27-2007, 03:39 PM
wow, This thread is nice (LOL), I have played a cleric(default build) since beta and it is my main toon and I have no problem with money or running out of SP and most of the time you will be close to death before you will get a heal out of me :D because my heal will do 375 hp and crit for over 700hp so why wast sp but most of the time i am up fighting with the fighters. No I am not an elite player I play to have fun.

Dragonhyde
08-27-2007, 03:45 PM
[QUOTE=Dingo123;1318123]This is no joke guys.



So, all that will change is that Clerics will now be freed up to cast more offensive spells and buffs. This means you won't NEED as much healing. See? The end rsult, really, is that you don't spend much more mana than you would under the normal system.


QUOTE]

So the only reason you want this change is because you have chosen to buy wands and scrolls for healing in order to cast offensive spells. If someone chooses to heal almost exclusively from wands and scrolls then that is their trade off for the mana to just throw the more "fun" spells.

Ziggy
08-27-2007, 03:47 PM
Now there is a real topic; availability of unlimited HP in the form of potions, wands, and scrolls. Note that I do not call it free SP, because it's only SP to classes that heal with spells. It's unlimited HP to everyone (including healers). It has been fervently debated before and will be debated again as long as the vendors are in the game.
Hey you leave my repair wands and potions alone Mad.

Dont make me sick mocat on you.:cool:

Lizzybrat
08-27-2007, 03:53 PM
/sarcasm on

Well heck, if my cleric gets to heal for free, why do I need anyone else in my party? No need to be bothered by those annoying health bars of other players. No need to be concerned by my blue mana bar. I can just solo everything.

No need for anyone to run anything other than a cleric.

Yup sounds like a fun game to me.

/sarcasm off

Girevik
08-27-2007, 04:25 PM
Incorrect.

Master Kadish
P.S. I'm not an expert on the matter though, so I don't know the exact mechanic/calculation it uses. But a 13 cleric that takes 1 level of pally will recieve spell points other than those from the aforementioned feats.

Well, you should just check your handy-dandy wiki pages then.

http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Spell_point

Bonus spell points
Your casting ability grants you a number of bonus spell points equal to (caster level + 9) * (casting ability modifier).

So, comparing two Clerics, both with 30 Wisdom, one a 14 Cleric and one a 13 Cleric/1 Paladin we see:

14 Cleric
Base: 680
Bonus: (14+9)*10 = 230
Total (before other stuff): 910

13 Cleric / 1 Paladin
Base: 610
Bonus: (13+9)*10 + (1+9)*10 = 220 + 100 = 320
Total (before other stuff): 930

So, the multiclasser (Paladin or Ranger) does gain a wee bit of spell points.

SkyGordan
08-27-2007, 04:36 PM
/sarcasm on

Well heck, if my cleric gets to heal for free, why do I need anyone else in my party? No need to be bothered by those annoying health bars of other players. No need to be concerned by my blue mana bar. I can just solo everything.

No need for anyone to run anything other than a cleric.

Yup sounds like a fun game to me.

/sarcasm off

now you take off the /sarcasm off this statement and that is what will happen if clerics get to heal for free :D

Cruzer
08-27-2007, 04:58 PM
This is no joke guys.

You're wrong. Your original post was one big joke. I laughed. I think it even had a punchline.


If FREE SP to Cast Heal is so ridiculously broken and wrong... why should people be allowed to run around with a backpack full of Heal Scrolls which are effectively FREE SP?

They're not free. Those SP's cost plat. I have a lvl 14 cleric. I carry wands, scrolls, I like to cast greater command, cometfall (flamestrike is a joke, it is rarely worth casting), soundburst, and i really miss holy smite. The only time I run out of mana is when I'm either a) doing missions too hard for the group or b) running around with bad players. And now that I'm lvl 14 its normally just option b. Making heal's not cost spell points won't help make better clerics, it'll help keep bad players alive and doing the bad things we all hate.

Tenkari_Rozahas
08-27-2007, 04:59 PM
riiiight, this suggestion is probably one of the most sure ways to unbalance the game more than everything else put together.

Ganak
08-27-2007, 05:06 PM
/disagree

Playing smart and conserving sp is part of the game.

Aspenor
08-27-2007, 05:35 PM
This is no joke guys.


As I said before... the difference between what's going on now, and what I'm talking about is minimal.

When you carry healing wands, scrolls, and the like into battle what are you doing but effectively extending your mana? You're paying for heals in cash rather than in sp.

Now, consider how much would actually CHANGE if healing was for free. Because, as mentioned above, that's largely what we do now. Everyone has oodles of mana, so they never run out apparently (I've never teamed with these people... but sure, alright.. whatever), unlike a great deal of other groups I've been a part of.

So, all that will change is that Clerics will now be freed up to cast more offensive spells and buffs. This means you won't NEED as much healing. See? The end rsult, really, is that you don't spend much more mana than you would under the normal system.

A single Cleric can only heal so much. What's the difference between my system and a Cleric who ahs 100 heal scrolls in their backpack? Seriously. Outside of cost. Is this game breaking? Should we limit the number of heal scrolls you can carry? If not, why not?

If FREE SP to Cast Heal is so ridiculously broken and wrong... why should people be allowed to run around with a backpack full of Heal Scrolls which are effectively FREE SP?

You people aren't making any sense.

Being able to spam sp free heal is broken! Broken I tell you!... but I do carry Heal Scrolls... because you know, sometimes I need them.

*facepalm*

Are you like a plat farmer or something? That's the only type of person I can see coming up with something like this.

boldarblood
08-27-2007, 06:12 PM
I got a better idea.

We take no damage, that way we dont need healing. It'll save us lots of money.

Game is already easy enough, even on elite content. There is no need to give Clerics all there healing for free. If the cleric can not keep up on healing in a mission, its time to change tacticts (slow down, better use of buffs, better use of Crowd Control), worst case scenario find another group or attempt at a lower difficulty. Already 95% or greater of the Dungeons can be completed without cleric, there is no need to give them an even bigger easy button.

Newtons_Apple
08-27-2007, 08:49 PM
That's EXACTLY what I want.

If Clerics were allowed to chuck around some more of those interesting spells a bit more freely they wouldn't HAVE to be healbots. The cleric class would imrpove as a whole and more poeople would want to play them.

More people playing Clerics means less wait for the team (Yes, yes save your elitist "We don't need no Cleric!) ****.

Fine, good for you, everyone else does.

The more Clerics playing the more teams that will spring up around them....

Consider you have 15 players. Under the current system we'll say 2 of them are Clerics.

One Cleric per team, team of 6... so 12 guys have a team... 3 don't.

Now, let's say under the new system just one more guy rolls a Cleric... now we're looking at a 3/15 split... so now we have 3 teams, with 5 players.

Everyone wins.

But you only have five players!

Well now that Cleric doesn't have to be a healbot and can be much more pro-active in combat and be less of a blank file.

God I have become tired of these arguments and points being made, but here goes. Clerics don't NEED to be healbots- they should be combat triage specialists- meaning they only heal during combat. Afterwards, everyone drinks the healing potions they most responsibly bought. If you don't know where to get cure serious potions, they are in house K at liquid charms. There are also potions that can be used to:
Remove curse
Remove blindness
Apply Barkskin
Apply haste
Shield of Faith

The list goes on. Learn it, do it, and stop using your cleric for a crutch.

knghtstalkr
08-27-2007, 09:24 PM
... so does that mean that clerics would solo undead quests all day and all night because they have unlimited "kill undead I win" spells?

... should wizzies and sorcies have unlimited mana so they can cast repair spells until the dragons come home to roost?

... maybe you should let the clerics cast also unlimited "inflict" spells since those are the same coin/different sides of the same spell?

I don't think you thought this concept all the way through... you got stuck on the "shiney shiney happy everyone wins" rest area, but the final, "end of the road" destination of your concept is not feasible.

Quit presenting sweeping generalizations as fact... try these instead:

Fact: There are about as many poor clerics as successful clerics. Poor clerics will batch and moan louder, however...

Fact: Poorly run quests will demand more resources to succeed. Teams that do not work together will run poorly in a challenging setting.

Other suggestions to improve the quality of life for our holy brothers and sister have been submitted... some good & some bad. Thank you for your suggestion - it has been duly noted and filed.

Dingo123
08-27-2007, 09:30 PM
God I have become tired of these arguments and points being made, but here goes. Clerics don't NEED to be healbots- they should be combat triage specialists- meaning they only heal during combat. Afterwards, everyone drinks the healing potions they most responsibly bought. If you don't know where to get cure serious potions, they are in house K at liquid charms. There are also potions that can be used to:
Remove curse
Remove blindness
Apply Barkskin
Apply haste
Shield of Faith

The list goes on. Learn it, do it, and stop using your cleric for a crutch.



And this is what the Forum Elitists don't GET.

You have to develop the game for the players, you can't develop the players for the game. People are like "learn to play, learn to play. play conservatively, buy pots".

Screw that. Players, en masse, have opted out of DDO, and for good reason.

It's been over a year and this game is HEMMORAGHING players.

Perhaps it's time to start thinking of some revolutionary stuff. And simply telling people to "buy pots" sure isn't helping the game a whole lot, is it?

You guys seriously need to rethink your game strategy if you want this game to work.

Wrong or right, I have a valid point. I PuG endlessly... and I've been playing for much much longer than my Forum name suggests. Off and on I've been in and around since around beta.

This game is falling apart. I think the Clerical dependance on wands/scrolls (and they do. I know you, and you, and you in the corner are the ubah leet mastahs of the game... but virtually every team I'm a part of that Cleric pulls out the wand at least once. It's even more so at higher levels.)


Look, you all can sit on your ivory towers and laugh while the ship sinks, carrying on about how amazing you are, and how you don't need this, and you don't need that.

Well your complacency and ego stroking is going to be the death of this game.

Your purpose on these forums is to improve the game. That's really what the developers have this thing for. Not for you to carry on about how stupah dupah you are.

People are leaving, en masse.

I think a big part of that is because this game relies so unbelievably heavily on Clerics and so very few people want to play Clerics because you DO end up a heal bot.

I know, you're amazing, and YOU'RE not a healbot... but more than a few times have I heard a Cleric loudly proclaiming they were a "dedicated healer" as they ran around in a robe.

And those are the guys that get teams.

Those are the guys that aren't harassed for fighting/.

Yes, yes, fine, if they harass you just split and wait until someone else picks you up... and listen to them gripe about your playstyle... and then split on them...

and so on and so forth.

knghtstalkr
08-27-2007, 09:33 PM
I can think of one aspect of the OP's original suggestion that merits consideration...

...it would put our healers on par with the bad guy healers who don't use mana for their healing *smirk*!!!

smodge13
08-27-2007, 09:43 PM
Smodge, heals/banishes/destruction/commands and only just recently, swings a mace.

clerics can do plenty as they are, sure theres the occasional quest that goes bad and requires a tonne of plat to get through (rare occurence and generally its because of bad party makeup/ group not working together right) but majority of the time, its easy enough to keep the party standing, dingo you yourself have stated you dont have a cleric, so try it before you go claiming to know the class. Clerics are very powerful and very hard to actually screw up (buildwise) its more of a class thats skill is determined by the players ability to multitask more than anything.

those who complain about the wand costs ect are usually beginner clerics, after spending a fair bit of time playing the class you become better at it and the cost starts to go down dramatically, perosnally i havent gone over 2 CMW per quest in ages and i can still manage spells for other things.

a game is meant to have at least some level of dificulty, why put heal spells cost 0 sp when you can have an "i win" button instead? and while we're at it, lets make it so you can choose what loot drops for you in a chest "hmm i'll take the vorpal longsword of greater idiot bane".

Edit: despite being a cleric that heals/fights/casts offensively, i find it very easy to find groups, majority of the time i pug as well.

smodge13
08-27-2007, 09:49 PM
Well your complacency and ego stroking is going to be the death of this game.

Your purpose on these forums is to improve the game. That's really what the developers have this thing for. Not for you to carry on about how stupah dupah you are.

and your trolling is helping the game how?

Dingo123
08-27-2007, 11:01 PM
and your trolling is helping the game how?

What exactly am I doing that is "trolling"?

Tenkari_Rozahas
08-27-2007, 11:07 PM
Well, you should just check your handy-dandy wiki pages then.

http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Spell_point

Bonus spell points
Your casting ability grants you a number of bonus spell points equal to (caster level + 9) * (casting ability modifier).

So, comparing two Clerics, both with 30 Wisdom, one a 14 Cleric and one a 13 Cleric/1 Paladin we see:

14 Cleric
Base: 680
Bonus: (14+9)*10 = 230
Total (before other stuff): 910

13 Cleric / 1 Paladin
Base: 610
Bonus: (13+9)*10 + (1+9)*10 = 220 + 100 = 320
Total (before other stuff): 930

So, the multiclasser (Paladin or Ranger) does gain a wee bit of spell points.

Why'd you give the level 1 Pally the 100 bonus?Pally's dont get Any SP until level 4, so one level of Pally would give you a big fat Zero. Look at the chart. a level 1 pally it says gets Zero Spell points.

BUpcott
08-27-2007, 11:08 PM
Screw that. Players, en masse, have opted out of DDO, and for good reason.

Feel free to follow. Hurry up. GO GO!!


Your purpose on these forums is to improve the game. That's really what the developers have this thing for. Not for you to carry on about how stupah dupah you are.

1) We aren't claiming to be "stupah dupah". We are simply using real example to point out that your suggestion is not needed.

2) We are using the examples from #1 to tell them devs not to make the mistake of listening to you since this would be gamebreaking and only make the game worse.



I think a big part of that is because this game relies so unbelievably heavily on Clerics and so very few people want to play Clerics because you DO end up a heal bot.

Another joke, are you a comedian?!?! The game does not rely heavily on clerics. Maybe you do; but the game doesn't.

Aranticus
08-27-2007, 11:41 PM
fact: my L14 clerics have excess of 1200 sp, my L14 dwarf clr has 1315 to be exact

fact: i have ran quests in which i did not have to heal anyone. gtr command, cometfall, holy smite rocks

fact: you do not play a clr

fact: we play clr

fact: my clr have been poor but not broke. if i'm poor i solo GC, run tbf, pop.

fact: my clr get poor loot.... 3 shields in chests for pop followed by an end reward of the choice of 10 shields

free healing would mean encouraging even worse play from the already bad players who are pampered by generous healbot types. even on my healbot drow clr, i sometimes resort to letting players die to make a point "play smart not stupid".

ps: feel free to leave, we dun need your kind here

pss: i dun need your stuff either....

PaintHorseCowboy
08-27-2007, 11:42 PM
*I* don't even play a Cleric... it's the Clerics who are so often griping about being perpetually out of mana and or wanding.


This is no joke guys.


As I said before... the difference between what's going on now, and what I'm talking about is minimal.

When you carry healing wands, scrolls, and the like into battle what are you doing but effectively extending your mana? You're paying for heals in cash rather than in sp.

Now, consider how much would actually CHANGE if healing was for free. Because, as mentioned above, that's largely what we do now. Everyone has oodles of mana, so they never run out apparently (I've never teamed with these people... but sure, alright.. whatever), unlike a great deal of other groups I've been a part of.

So, all that will change is that Clerics will now be freed up to cast more offensive spells and buffs. This means you won't NEED as much healing. See? The end rsult, really, is that you don't spend much more mana than you would under the normal system.

A single Cleric can only heal so much. What's the difference between my system and a Cleric who ahs 100 heal scrolls in their backpack? Seriously. Outside of cost. Is this game breaking? Should we limit the number of heal scrolls you can carry? If not, why not?

If FREE SP to Cast Heal is so ridiculously broken and wrong... why should people be allowed to run around with a backpack full of Heal Scrolls which are effectively FREE SP?

You people aren't making any sense.

Being able to spam sp free heal is broken! Broken I tell you!... but I do carry Heal Scrolls... because you know, sometimes I need them.

*facepalm*


If we're going this far, why not go one step further and suggest that we remove the blue bars entirely and allow anyone who casts spells to cast as many of whatever type the want? Not only that, let's remove all timers too.

An added effect of getting rid of the blue bars is your party members who don't have them now won't feel inadequate because they are the only member who doesn't have one.

And one other thing that has piqued my curiosity. I hilighted a quote of yours from an earlier post, and a section of this newer post. Would you care to explain to us how in one post you admit to not even playing a cleric, yet in this newer post, you clearly state that you do in fact carry scrolls and use them? Did you suddenly roll and level a cleric 11 levels in one day? (Not that it can't be done, but as active as you've been in this post, you wouldn't have had the time in my opinion.) This whole statement is confusing to say the least and smells as funny as a load of hog's woller.

Shade
08-27-2007, 11:50 PM
If your not the cleric, your the mana sponge causing him to say this.

The cleric I group with get more annoyed with me not being in healing range then running out of SP and needing wands or scrolls. I run ahead because I can kill all the caster and avoid any AOE dmg to the party, so me needing 1 heal vs the party needed 6 small ones is more efficient overall.

Sure they use em.. But we do things so smoothly that there almost never required. Often just used so they can use there SP on CC and killing for more fun.
Pure healing spec cleric could heal me thru all of madstone elite and probalby skip a couple shrines.

Check out that halfling medic build, he gets like 1000 sp + 800 free sp worth of the dragonmark heals, pretty sweet.

Gennerik
08-28-2007, 12:03 AM
If your not the cleric, your the mana sponge causing him to say this.

The cleric I group with get more annoyed with me not being in healing range then running out of SP and needing wands or scrolls. I run ahead because I can kill all the caster and avoid any AOE dmg to the party, so me needing 1 heal vs the party needed 6 small ones is more efficient overall.

Sure they use em.. But we do things so smoothly that there almost never required. Often just used so they can use there SP on CC and killing for more fun.
Pure healing spec cleric could heal me thru all of madstone elite and probalby skip a couple shrines.

Check out that halfling medic build, he gets like 1000 sp + 800 free sp worth of the dragonmark heals, pretty sweet.

If I could just put those crazy melees on a leash... Man, my life would be great. :D It does irritate me more having people run around corners, or up stairs, or out of range, but you get used to it. And really, the only reason why it's irritating is because you have to wait for the timer to cool.

Bengalih
08-28-2007, 12:42 AM
Once you've got that down, you realize a very important truth -
A cleric's costs are not based on how uber a build the cleric is, or how elite their gear is --- it is all a matter of how good their team is.


That's the truth right there. Of course, it is also a matter of how good you are as a cleric (to a certain extent).

Everyone here commenting on how a cleric is performing "incorrectly" or not "efficiently using mana" because he tops off the party, or the half dozen other things stated really hasn't a clue about playing a cleric.

What happens when the elite casters blow away through the tank in two quick hits? If that fighter was topped off he may have survived, and guess who is gonna get bit@#ed at for that... the cleric. Plus if your group goes into a fight at 80%, it makes it that much harder to keep them healed when the swords start swining.

In an ideal world, everyone would be taking care of themselves with the Cleric there for the extra backup when things go bad. But most clerics find themselves far from an ideal world, and beggars can't be choosers in the world of PUGs. (If you run with guildies, any and all of these conversations should be moot, because people who play together regularly should know better).

I am not arguing the OPs point. I think unlimited healing is ludicrous, making this game more an excersice in wrote hack and slash than it is now. However, I think the mass of arguments against it are equally void.

I really don't understand why clerics get this much attention still. There are 4 classes that can heal (with wands or spells) naturally. Plus there are enough UMD speced rogues and bards to cast heals and raise out there. Clerics are nothing special (in contrast to any other class... and yes I play 3 of them). Let's get over these cleric debates. Can someone please start some threads on why fighter's aren't using their sunder skill properly or why it is too expensive for a bard to buy lute strings??!

Speaking of bards...there's a class which needs a little extra mana.... ;)

Olaustt
08-28-2007, 04:37 AM
Listen... Clerics don't have enough SP.

They don't. They live off wands, they live off scrolls.

Whatever.

They don't have enough SP.

Clerics hardcore spec'd just for healing often have not enough SP.


So...

Just let Clerics cast their spontaneous healing spells for free.


Seriously. It would dramatically improve the game.


Listen, eventually it becomes an issue of how deep the Clerics pockets are... not skill... not SP management... but how many wands you have on you... how many heal scrolls.

It's got to stop.

So make Clerical healing free.

Test it.

Try it.

See for yourself.



Umm my Cleric has 1270 Sp's and is spec'd for healing and has no problem with managing Sp's. Try to refrain from Destructing every other Mob that comes along that may help :cool:

Dingo123
08-28-2007, 04:53 AM
Umm my Cleric has 1270 Sp's and is spec'd for healing and has no problem with managing Sp's. Try to refrain from Destructing every other Mob that comes along that may help :cool:




I was in the Threnal Library earlier tonight.

The Clerics... yes Cleric(s) not only ran out of heals, they almost ran out of wands. This was while the Sorc was consistantly casting, and landing, suggestion on the bad guys, who spent more time fighting each other than us.

But both of these Clerics were just absolute idiots who simply couldn't manage their SP in threnal on normal, right? I believe one was 8, the other was 9. These mindless zombie idiot Clerics not only relied heavily on wands... they had to. All while in the same room as a shrine.

Targitaj_Silverskin
08-28-2007, 05:09 AM
your group was sux

Targitaj_Silverskin
08-28-2007, 05:15 AM
If the bad guys spent more time fighting each other than hurting you and your party, wonder what the Clerics spent their SP on... :confused:

How many SP sponges are there in your party?:D

:D dingo was the main sp's eater

Alphalegacy
08-28-2007, 05:17 AM
I was in the Threnal Library earlier tonight.

The Clerics... yes Cleric(s) not only ran out of heals, they almost ran out of wands. This was while the Sorc was consistantly casting, and landing, suggestion on the bad guys, who spent more time fighting each other than us.

But both of these Clerics were just absolute idiots who simply couldn't manage their SP in threnal on normal, right? I believe one was 8, the other was 9. These mindless zombie idiot Clerics not only relied heavily on wands... they had to. All while in the same room as a shrine.


If the bad guys spent more time fighting each other than hurting you and your party, wonder what the Clerics spent their SP on... :confused:

How many SP sponges are there in your party?:D

Kraldor
08-28-2007, 05:58 AM
No SP for heal spells is way too powerful. *maybe* you can argue for an enhancement that reduces costs of heal spells, and even that is a very powerful ability. The only other way I can see something along this manner working is if you make Divine Vitality targetable on self, not just allies

Targitaj_Silverskin
08-28-2007, 06:55 AM
:d .

Mercules
08-28-2007, 07:24 AM
I think a big part of that is because this game relies so unbelievably heavily on Clerics and so very few people want to play Clerics because you DO end up a heal bot.

Fact - A level 6/1 Paladin/Sorcerer and 7/1 Rogue/Barbarian went through Gwylan's stand. They were not twinked, in fact we had to use the fire traps to kill the boss trolls because we didn't have flaming or acid weapon among us and they, unlike the normal trolls, were healing too fast for us to kill. There was 2 incaps and ONE actual death on that quest, but both of us could use wands and the Paladin could heal out of his normal SPs. I've seen a full team of level 7s team-wipe in there the difference, stupid play.

Fact - Clerics are -needed- for very few quests. The alternative is not a healing focussed Bard. The alternative is smart play and being prepared to take care of yourself.

Fact - I started a WF Rogue on another server. No way to twink down weapons or money because no other characters on that server. That WF was able to sustain himself on what he picked up out of the dungeon. I was actually shopping on the AH for the Rogue items I needed with what I gathered. I was able to keep myself in Elemental Resist potions, Repair potions, and other useful things without problem.

Fact - I am not an elite player.

It is amazing how something selfish like looking out for yourself and not counting on your teammates actually makes you a BETTER teammate than the idiots who assume someone else will buff/heal them.

Sojourner
08-28-2007, 07:30 AM
This thread rocks!!

How else can you explain something this stupid getting 105 replies!!?? :eek:

.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-28-2007, 07:32 AM
If your not the cleric, your the mana sponge causing him to say this..

LOL ya that's probably the case. Cleric's don't get grubly unless the group is doing poorly.



those who complain about the wand costs ect are usually beginner clerics, after spending a fair bit of time playing the class you become better at it and the cost starts to go down dramatically, perosnally i havent gone over 2 CMW per quest in ages and i can still manage spells for other things..

Very true...



God I have become tired of these arguments and points being made, but here goes. Clerics don't NEED to be healbots- they should be combat triage specialists- meaning they only heal during combat. Afterwards, everyone drinks the healing potions they most responsibly bought. If you don't know where to get cure serious potions, they are in house K at liquid charms. There are also potions that can be used to:
Remove curse
Remove blindness
Apply Barkskin
Apply haste
Shield of Faith

The list goes on. Learn it, do it, and stop using your cleric for a crutch.

That isn't reasonable.

Ok, everyone shoudl have all the potions you suggest and I do carry them on my non clerics.

BUT... Wands for remove blindness, remove disease, and cure light/mod/serious are about 1/3 the cost of pots. It is selfish and irrisponsible for a cleric/ranger/pali not to carry these type of wands to help out the party.

Mercules
08-28-2007, 07:41 AM
I was in the Threnal Library earlier tonight.

The Clerics... yes Cleric(s) not only ran out of heals, they almost ran out of wands. This was while the Sorc was consistantly casting, and landing, suggestion on the bad guys, who spent more time fighting each other than us.

But both of these Clerics were just absolute idiots who simply couldn't manage their SP in threnal on normal, right? I believe one was 8, the other was 9. These mindless zombie idiot Clerics not only relied heavily on wands... they had to. All while in the same room as a shrine.

I wouldn't say -that- was an example of a Cleric issue. 1. that is a difficult room that sucks down resources. 2. The Sorcerer was CCing one mob at a time and only those he could Suggest, there are other CC options. 3. Without having been on the quest, I won't be able to say where the issue came from but I would look at a common factor in your groups that leads you to believe Clerics need SP free Cure spells. Who is the one person in all your groups? Start there and be sure the fault doesn't lay with you before suggesting a game change.

Mercules
08-28-2007, 07:48 AM
BUT... Wands for remove blindness, remove disease, and cure light/mod/serious are about 1/3 the cost of pots. It is selfish and irrisponsible for a cleric/ranger/pali not to carry these type of wands to help out the party.

Agreed. Anyone who can use them should carry status removal wands. This includes UMD Rogues and those splash builds that have UMD for weapon equipping. I carry them on my Cleric because, except for certain quests, it is rare you need that spell and it frees up a slot that is more all around useful for a buff or offensive spell that can actually help prevent some of the damage/status affects.

blakbyrd
08-28-2007, 08:07 AM
How is a pack of scrolls and wands broken... They cost Plat. Secondly as i said before if I can run my bard through the quest as the only healer in the group not blow all my mana and use hardly any wands then any cleric can do it. My battle cleric i used to run could fight and heal with out a problem. The only time i ever relied on wands was when i first started running a Cleric and didnt know what I was doing. Heck Ive run many quests without even having a cleric in the party.Fact is free healing would be a friggin joke. THAT would cause a lot of people to leave the game includeing me.


For the most part this is quite true. Clerics are not usually required. In regards to Teddok, I salute you for your ability to play a cleric and for that matter a battle cleric well. Playing a cleric is about like American Idol. Sure anyone can get up on stage and try to sing, but the position itself is really only for certain types of people, and only certain people will be good at it. Playing a healing cleric is a difficult task, and is certainly not for some people, as is made evident by several clerics in game. Playing a battle cleric is a whole different ball of wax and even fewer do that well.

To play the healing cleric well takes experience, dedication, patience and the ability to focus on the task at hand...all combined with understanding your group. Playing the cleric in a PUG where you dont know anyone makes the cleric's job considerably harder as well.

Yes, scrolls and wands are expensive, and can add up extremely fast and cause some people to simply go broke. It is usually recommended that if you are not familiar with clerics or do not know the game or the quests, that you not start out in playing a cleric as your first character. I came from 2-1/2 years of playing the healing cleric in WoW, then moved directly to DDO, where my first character was a cleric. I learned real quick that things changed, and even having the background of playing the healer, knowing to watch health bars and anticipating the quests, didnt quite cover it for DDO. I was unable to be a real efficient healer here, and found the need to play another class for awhile to get the hang of the game before going back to my cleric. That made a huge difference for me and my ability as the healer.

Clerics are probably scrutinized more than any other class here, so you need to make sure that is what you want to do. A bad cleric can make a bad reputation for themselves quicker than most any other class, and you can find yourself being avoided quickly. Playing a cleric can also be a great expense that some find it necessary to have alts that help fund playing the healer, as many players dont donate to you. It's a job where selfishness cannot be any part of it.

What really gets me though are the groups that will not attempt anything without a cleric (granted a cleric is needed in some situations, but certainly not the majority of quests out there). To me this is a bad sign. Quite often it means people in the group have no means of self-sufficency at all. I;ve seen plenty of tank who dont even carry cure potions (because they are expensive, they say), nor resist potions or anything to help themselves. They find themselves entirely at the mercy and ability of the cleric to survive a quest. However they tend to forget the idea that if a cure pot is too expensive, how do you think the cleric feels about having to pay for wands and scrolls to cover the needs of everyone esle?

A good cleric needs to know alot, be able to understand what they are doing and what they are getting into. This is quite often why many healing clerics reserve themselves to guild runs only. It is much cheaper for them do play that way and not become the player subsidising the entire group by financing all the costs for healing the group. Regardless, if you PUG alot, then your cost factor for wands and scrolls will go up, its unavoidable because you are entering a situation where you lack all the knowledge necessary to be the most efficient you can be. It takes practice to get good at it, and not everyone has the playstyle to be the healer.

Ringlord
08-28-2007, 08:18 AM
Well actually as long as a Ranger or Paladin can cast a spell then they can use the wand for that spell without needing any UMD skill at all and it does not matter if they are the right level to cast the actual spell yet either so they can use Cure Serious wands from L1 if they could buy them.

JelloMold
08-28-2007, 08:21 AM
Well actually as long as a Ranger or Paladin can cast a spell then they can use the wand for that spell without needing any UMD skill at all and it does not matter if they are the right level to cast the actual spell yet either so they can use Cure Serious wands from L1 if they could buy them.

Are you sure about this? I think a cure serious (for example) is a minimum level 6 or so. I don't think there is a way around the minimum level requirement.

teddok
08-28-2007, 08:22 AM
Are you sure about this? I think a cure serious (for example) is a minimum level 6 or so. I don't think there is a way around the minimum level requirement.

CSW is min lvl 5. It does not matter what ur caster lvl is but ur player lvl. If you are say 1ranger/4fighter you can use the CSW

ahpook
08-28-2007, 08:34 AM
And this is what the Forum Elitists don't GET.

You have to develop the game for the players, you can't develop the players for the game. People are like "learn to play, learn to play. play conservatively, buy pots".

Screw that. Players, en masse, have opted out of DDO, and for good reason.

Your change would guarantee that most of the players left would depart in disgust. Everyone here (possibly excluding you) came because the D&D title. We would prefer to see some semblance of D&D remain.



...
Your purpose on these forums is to improve the game. That's really what the developers have this thing for. Not for you to carry on about how stupah dupah you are.

People are leaving, en masse.

I think a big part of that is because this game relies so unbelievably heavily on Clerics and so very few people want to play Clerics because you DO end up a heal bot.
...

People are trying to tell you that your suggestion will NOT improve the game. They give their examples not prove how supah they are but to back up their statements. So not all pug's burn through wands and scrolls. If every pug you are in does, perhaps you need to explore what is the one thing that is consistent in every group you pug with. Other people have figured that out which is maybe why they seem to be rejecting your idea.

If you are worried about Cleric's cash recommend that they pull wands and heal scrolls so people can learn to rely on good play and you will likely get more support. See, people want some "game" in their game,

Tenkari_Rozahas
08-28-2007, 08:46 AM
Honestly, why should clerics get this? if anything else, i think they should give a little more SP to Rangers and pallys, their buff's help people need less healing more than anything else.

Mercules
08-28-2007, 08:51 AM
Honestly, why should clerics get this? if anything else, i think they should give a little more SP to Rangers and pallys, their buff's help people need less healing more than anything else.

Or maybe make money easy to come by and wands available including higher level wands of Resist Energy/Protection from Energy... oh wait they did! :)

Hendrik
08-28-2007, 08:51 AM
Funny how CLERIC's are chiming in and saying this is not needed nor wanted at all. And yet, the OP still says they are all wrong....

I would suggest the OP roll and play a Cleric and get some experience under his belt and then maybe come here and ask for changes to the class. Until he has experience playing the class he has no 'right' to ask for such a change.

And as a CLR, I hardly EVER run out of mana, close to never use wands/scrolls as a crutch for bad gameplay by my party - of course I am a member of a guild and do not have to see the bad side of gameplay, ie PUGS.

Cap a CLR OP, then come here and ask for changes, until then, please stay very quiet and do not mess with my favorite class!

Tenkari_Rozahas
08-28-2007, 08:52 AM
Or maybe make money easy to come by and wands available including higher level wands of Resist Energy/Protection from Energy... oh wait they did! :)

Heh, my bard looted a resist energy wand level 11. nice to have on the reaver pre-raid.

ErgonomicCat
08-28-2007, 09:04 AM
Or maybe make money easy to come by and wands available including higher level wands of Resist Energy/Protection from Energy... oh wait they did! :)

No, no, no. The economy is broken, there are no money sinks, we're flooded with plat.

Haven't you heard?

blakbyrd
08-28-2007, 09:05 AM
Honestly, why should clerics get this? if anything else, i think they should give a little more SP to Rangers and pallys, their buff's help people need less healing more than anything else.

Well I wouldnt turn down a little more mana for my Pally or Ranger, however for such classes, the mana is mainly used for buffs, as their healing capacity is exceptionally limited (just mana wise not talking about their ability to use wands).

For most buffs these classes can cast, they are also available on as clikcies or potions (not all but most). There's a reason for this which is fairly simple. Any class can be self-sufficent (to a point of course, but that point usually covers most situations), if they want to. What seems to be an underlying point in all this is that some (or maybe even many) players choose not to be self-sufficient. Personally, I build all my characters to be self-sufficent. I do not need or require any buffs from anyone else. I am happy to get them if they wish to do so, but I rarely ever ask for anything. I have what I need to cover what I need (and for most everything, such items are readily available, if people wish to take advantage of that). In turn, being self-sufficent also greatly lessens the drain on the caster's mana, it can greatly lessen the need for a cleric to expend large amounts of healing, it keeps me going longer, allows the rest of the group to focus more on their tasks and less on having to run around protecting others, and is all around a more efficient means of playing for me. I dont need a ranger wsting their limited mana on keeping me in barkskin, when I can carry all the barkskin potions I need (not to mention i can use another when it wears out instead of asking for another one to be cast on me in hopes that he has the mana to even do it).

Sadly, some players simply will not take advantage of the items available to help themselves become more efficient for the entire group, and instead rely on others to do it for them and then sometimes complain that those other players can't conserve mana, or forget entirely about the financial costs that such actions can cost others just to help make them better.

Anyone can be 80-90% self-sufficent, but there will always be some situations where you must rely on others, but when those times come, they will be better prepared for them, if you took the time to be better prepared yourself (the "you" portions of this are not directed to anyone specifically).

Aspenor
08-28-2007, 09:07 AM
I was in the Threnal Library earlier tonight.

The Clerics... yes Cleric(s) not only ran out of heals, they almost ran out of wands. This was while the Sorc was consistantly casting, and landing, suggestion on the bad guys, who spent more time fighting each other than us.

But both of these Clerics were just absolute idiots who simply couldn't manage their SP in threnal on normal, right? I believe one was 8, the other was 9. These mindless zombie idiot Clerics not only relied heavily on wands... they had to. All while in the same room as a shrine.

It sounds like somebody in that party was sucking up too many resources...

Hmmmmm...I wonder who that could be....

Do you have this problem regularly? Maybe its time for a little introspective.

BUpcott
08-28-2007, 10:47 AM
Now Im ****ed.
Dude you are an idiot. I have tried so hard to never flame anyone but dude you are an idiot. How is a pack of scrolls and wands broken... They cost Plat. Secondly as i said before if I can run my bard through the quest as the only healer in the group not blow all my mana and use hardly any wands then any cleric can do it. My battle cleric i used to run could fight and heal with out a problem. The only time i ever relied on wands was when i first started running a Cleric and didnt know what I was doing. Heck Ive run many quests without even having a cleric in the party.Fact is free healing would be a friggin joke. THAT would cause a lot of people to leave the game includeing me.
Please save us from your stupidity and leave....JUST LEAVE

Damn I am so ****sed.....

I love it!

And dingo i think it might be time to roll al cleric and get a real perspective. Although i fear i might regret suggesting that. If you do roll a cleric let me know his name so that i can at least give you a chance or two.

Mad_Bombardier
08-28-2007, 10:59 AM
Why'd you give the level 1 Pally the 100 bonus?Pally's dont get Any SP until level 4, so one level of Pally would give you a big fat Zero. Look at the chart. a level 1 pally it says gets Zero Spell points.0 Base SP. 100 Ability Bonus SP from 28 WIS. Look at the chart at the bottom. :)

Tavok
08-28-2007, 12:15 PM
I've only read through the first few pages, but has anyone even MENTIONED bards?

Tavok
08-28-2007, 12:19 PM
Your change would guarantee that most of the players left would depart in disgust. Everyone here (possibly excluding you) came because the D&D title. We would prefer to see some semblance of D&D remain.

I started playing this game never have even seen anything D&D like in my life.

Mercules
08-28-2007, 12:35 PM
I've only read through the first few pages, but has anyone even MENTIONED bards?

Nope... Bard-Cleric-Druid-Ranger-Paladin the class doesn't matter at all. Being reliant on another character for all your healing is dumb, plain and simple. Forcing them to heal you at a large cost to them, is rude, plain and simple.


How many team wipes could have been avoided if everyone else in the party had an alternate way to remove a Curse, or Blindness, or even get people's, including their own, health back up? Nothing is worse than being the Cleric incapped and having 5 people, 4 of which could use a wand if their carried it, stare at you and count your HPs down with you.

Hendrik
08-28-2007, 01:09 PM
Nope... Bard-Cleric-Druid-Ranger-Paladin the class doesn't matter at all. Being reliant on another character for all your healing is dumb, plain and simple. Forcing them to heal you at a large cost to them, is rude, plain and simple.


How many team wipes could have been avoided if everyone else in the party had an alternate way to remove a Curse, or Blindness, or even get people's, including their own, health back up? Nothing is worse than being the Cleric incapped and having 5 people, 4 of which could use a wand if their carried it, stare at you and count your HPs down with you.

Or, Heaven forbid, someone puts points into the Heal Skill....

:eek:

Mercules
08-28-2007, 01:16 PM
Or, Heaven forbid, someone puts points into the Heal Skill....

:eek:

My WF Fighter/Wizard carries Healing Kits(which reminds me I need to stock a few more) and a Sustenance item so he can get fleshies up. He can wand heal himself and other WF, but those dang human Clerics don't respond to Repair wands.

Dingo123
08-28-2007, 02:36 PM
Now Im ****ed.
Dude you are an idiot. I have tried so hard to never flame anyone but dude you are an idiot. How is a pack of scrolls and wands broken... They cost Plat. Secondly as i said before if I can run my bard through the quest as the only healer in the group not blow all my mana and use hardly any wands then any cleric can do it. My battle cleric i used to run could fight and heal with out a problem. The only time i ever relied on wands was when i first started running a Cleric and didnt know what I was doing. Heck Ive run many quests without even having a cleric in the party.Fact is free healing would be a friggin joke. THAT would cause a lot of people to leave the game includeing me.
Please save us from your stupidity and leave....JUST LEAVE

Damn I am so ****sed.....


People say infinite free SP is broken, people would leave in disgust, it's terribly unbalanced, etc etc etc.

Let's say I have a few million gold pieces. I buy a few thousand heal scrolls. I now have a vast supply of free SP. Even if it costs me Plat... I still have nearly endless amounts of free healing power.

So on one hand, you're in favor of a player having vast quantities of free spell points... but on the other hand, you're against a player having vast quantities of free spell points.

Does the scroll SP cost plat? Certainly. So who does that favor? The Cleric with money. The Cleric with money has endless amounts of free SP... the broke Cleric is feverishly using his last wand.

We already have a system of sp free healing spells. You just have to be wealthy to take advantage of it.

Aspenor
08-28-2007, 02:41 PM
People say infinite free SP is broken, people would leave in disgust, it's terribly unbalanced, etc etc etc.

Let's say I have a few million gold pieces. I buy a few thousand heal scrolls. I now have a vast supply of free SP. Even if it costs me Plat... I still have nearly endless amounts of free healing power.

So on one hand, you're in favor of a player having vast quantities of free spell points... but on the other hand, you're against a player having vast quantities of free spell points.

Does the scroll SP cost plat? Certainly. So who does that favor? The Cleric with money. The Cleric with money has endless amounts of free SP... the broke Cleric is feverishly using his last wand.

We already have a system of sp free healing spells. You just have to be wealthy to take advantage of it.

Oh, I got it. So this is all to help out the broke clerics....

Who cares?

My wizard is a necromancer. I request that all finger of death spells cost NO SP, because I can just drink one of my endless pile of Mnemonic Enhancers.

teddok
08-28-2007, 02:41 PM
People say infinite free SP is broken, people would leave in disgust, it's terribly unbalanced, etc etc etc.

Let's say I have a few million gold pieces. I buy a few thousand heal scrolls. I now have a vast supply of free SP. Even if it costs me Plat... I still have nearly endless amounts of free healing power.

So on one hand, you're in favor of a player having vast quantities of free spell points... but on the other hand, you're against a player having vast quantities of free spell points.

Does the scroll SP cost plat? Certainly. So who does that favor? The Cleric with money. The Cleric with money has endless amounts of free SP... the broke Cleric is feverishly using his last wand.

We already have a system of sp free healing spells. You just have to be wealthy to take advantage of it.

Why will you not let this DIE. We have told to countless times and countless reasons why this is a bad idea. Why do you posting this ****. Please stop and save our sanity. How is being able to buy scroll infinite SP. Please explain exactily how. If i ran my cleric the way you are suggesting that Million Plat would be gone in less then a week. Like the restof us have said before my cleric hardly ever has to use scrolls or wands. Hell my bard hardly ever has to use scroll or wands.
Please go away.

jaitee
08-28-2007, 02:49 PM
well my cleric, never goes broke, because she never gets any play time :D

GeneralDiomedes
08-28-2007, 02:49 PM
Tactics. Teamwork. Perhaps you have heard of them? I know it takes time .. but for someone new to the game (and I AM assuming you are new to the game) I suppose it's a natural reaction to want to change everything that you perceive as a problem.

BTW - there is a problem with unlimited wands, but the solution is not to give away free mana. The solution is to introduce scarcity of resources so players think more about what they are doing. I shudder to think the levels of stupidity that this game would sink to if healing was free ...

Aspenor
08-28-2007, 02:56 PM
/sarcasm on
While we're at it, please allow fighters to heal themselves for free. I mean, buying healing potions is a hassle. Since we're all running around with gobs of money, all fighters need to have a Cure Serious Wounds clickie with unlimited charges.

Thank you, that is all.

Tavok
08-28-2007, 03:47 PM
People say infinite free SP is broken, people would leave in disgust, it's terribly unbalanced, etc etc etc.

Let's say I have a few million gold pieces. I buy a few thousand heal scrolls. I now have a vast supply of free SP. Even if it costs me Plat... I still have nearly endless amounts of free healing power.

So on one hand, you're in favor of a player having vast quantities of free spell points... but on the other hand, you're against a player having vast quantities of free spell points.

Does the scroll SP cost plat? Certainly. So who does that favor? The Cleric with money. The Cleric with money has endless amounts of free SP... the broke Cleric is feverishly using his last wand.

We already have a system of sp free healing spells. You just have to be wealthy to take advantage of it.

You just summed up the answer yourself. "You have to be wealthy to take advantage of it." Do you even realize that not EVERYONE in this game (even those who have been around for over a year) has their own plat burning holes in their pockets? Unless you play/focus on 1 or 2 toons, its extremely hard to keep a steady flow/amount of cash flowing. I play (or played I suppose, just troll for the forums, don't play the game lol) 14 different toons, no banks. It was an immense task trying to keep my plat in balance. Even pre merge, with 8 toons, it was still extremely hard.

knight2k
08-28-2007, 04:09 PM
People say infinite free SP is broken, people would leave in disgust, it's terribly unbalanced, etc etc etc.

Let's say I have a few million gold pieces. I buy a few thousand heal scrolls. I now have a vast supply of free SP. Even if it costs me Plat... I still have nearly endless amounts of free healing power.


First your claim that it is a nearly endless supply is in error. It is extremely finite. You first had to earn those gold pieces and now they are gone. Before you can buy another stack of thousands of heal scrolls you will have to earn more gold. Believe me your stack of scrolls will shrink faster than your gold pieces will accumulate. It is NOT the same so you are comparing the proverbial apples to oranges.

If you stated you had an infinite supply of plat to buy those scrolls with, then you have something similar. *If* you had an infinite supply of plat can you not see how game breaking that would be? You want to grant infinite spell points with no consequences. Spending spell points to heal has its consequences. If you run out you cannot heal and must then fall back to wands and scrolls which also have consequences in that they cost plat. This forces strategy and teamwork without which you could just zerg through each and every quest with no fear of failure.

Infinite spell points is no different than granting infinite plat and will completely break the game. There is not a single other game that I know of that has even attempted this ridiculous idea.

Just because clerics and other healing classes fall back on wands from time to time is not a basis to claim that they should be given infinite SP. Good strategy and teamwork negate this problem every single time. I play a Bard myself and have main healed quite often. I fall back on wands mainly so I can chain heal since I am not a true healer. Wands are on a different timer than my heal spells so I can alternate. My Bard on Sarlona is the only character there and has no ability to be twinked. She is lvl 7, has close to 200k gold and is carrying 2 CMW and 1 CSW just about full and none of which were donated to her. She pugs almost all the time and backup heals and CCs mostly. If she can do this any true cleric can.

You want to basically implement a big EASY button so you can win every single time with little to no effort. Do you really think the game will be very fun when you know going in that you cannot lose or be killed? The whole reason I came to DDO in the first place was because of the difficulty. I *want* it hard. I want to have that risk of a party wipe. It makes your victories that much sweeter.

There are many things in this game I would like to see changed or tweaked but cleric spell points in NOT one of them.

isldur
08-28-2007, 04:16 PM
Look lets be short and let this thread die.....

How many responses and not one agreeing with you.....um 135 lol

That should tell you something, YOUR WRONG, poor suggestion, sorry. Apparently your the only one for this change so implementing it would upset everyone but you therefore it is bad for the game.


THE END

Dingo123
08-28-2007, 04:25 PM
Why will you not let this DIE. We have told to countless times and countless reasons why this is a bad idea. Why do you posting this ****. Please stop and save our sanity. How is being able to buy scroll infinite SP. Please explain exactily how. If i ran my cleric the way you are suggesting that Million Plat would be gone in less then a week. Like the restof us have said before my cleric hardly ever has to use scrolls or wands. Hell my bard hardly ever has to use scroll or wands.
Please go away.



But the essence is the same.

Regardless of how you GOT the sp... you're walking into that quest with far and away more SP than norm. Clerics have been known to walk into Raids and burn 100 Heal Scrolls.

Could they have done that without those heal scrolls?


I'm telling you the game would change relatively little for the worse and far more for the better.

PLENTY of teams have died while the cleric had full SP, or close to it.

Legions of teams have had dead members that the Cleric simply couldn't keep up with in healing, despite having SP to go around.

However, freeing up that SP so the Cleric could cast more offensively with impudence would increase the CLerics desirability for far more players and increase the liklihood of people playing battle Clerics as well.

Dingo123
08-28-2007, 04:27 PM
No, the essence is NOT the same. Keep telling yourself it is. Just so you know, we're all laughing at you.

Prove it. And you're welcome to revel in your group mentality. You're one of the crowd laughing at the individual. Go you. Feel powerful now? *laugh* =)

Dingo123
08-28-2007, 04:29 PM
You want to basically implement a big EASY button so you can win every single time with little to no effort. Do you really think the game will be very fun when you know going in that you cannot lose or be killed? The whole reason I came to DDO in the first place was because of the difficulty. I *want* it hard. I want to have that risk of a party wipe. It makes your victories that much sweeter.

There are many things in this game I would like to see changed or tweaked but cleric spell points in NOT one of them.

If having sp enough for spells were enough to keep people alive why do people still die rather frequently no less, even when the Cleric has SP?

SP, in and of itself, is not enough to keep a player alive.

If I gave someone a hundred thousand heal scrolls, people on his team would still die now and again.

Hendrik
08-28-2007, 04:31 PM
My WF Fighter/Wizard carries Healing Kits(which reminds me I need to stock a few more) and a Sustenance item so he can get fleshies up. He can wand heal himself and other WF, but those dang human Clerics don't respond to Repair wands.

LOL

Dang fleshies anyways!

;)

I have been 'pushing' my guild mates to take a few point in Heal for what seems like forever now. Finally some have listened and have saved many a lives with it, mine included....

Now, if they, the Humans, only listen and pick up a rank or two in Human Recovery...

:rolleyes:

Aspenor
08-28-2007, 04:32 PM
Prove it. And you're welcome to revel in your group mentality. You're one of the crowd laughing at the individual. Go you. Feel powerful now? *laugh* =)

Plat /= Free SP

Plat is a resource. A resource that must be earned.

That is all.

Oran_Lathor
08-28-2007, 04:37 PM
Can you not understand that scrolls are NOT FREE? I honestly can't understand how you don't see that this would be a game breaker. It would over power the cleric class beyond anything I have ever seen suggested for any class. If any thread ever has justified this comment, this is it: Wow, just wow.

Tenkari_Rozahas
08-28-2007, 04:46 PM
by your own logic, yoru saying that casters should carry around as many scrolls as they can cause its "free SP"

the most Plat ANY of my characters had was 30k max. some of us dont play enough to afford 1000's of scrolls on their clerics. Clerics with unlimited SP still wont be better, why? casue a good group doesnt even NEED a cleric.. i'll give you an example.

My level 6 Pally was running with a TR group as the primary healer. he had two LoH, and maybe 160 SP, i bought THREE Cure Mod wands before going in, thats 150 charges..... we went through the whole series.... I came out with 147 charges left on my wands, yes i only used three charges.... and NOT ONE DEATH happened. Clerics need to learn how to use the SP they have if they are running out, not get more.


Edit: Oh yes. i forgot to mention the run was on elite.

Hendrik
08-28-2007, 04:50 PM
But the essence is the same.

Regardless of how you GOT the sp... you're walking into that quest with far and away more SP than norm. Clerics have been known to walk into Raids and burn 100 Heal Scrolls.

Could they have done that without those heal scrolls?


I'm telling you the game would change relatively little for the worse and far more for the better.

PLENTY of teams have died while the cleric had full SP, or close to it.

Legions of teams have had dead members that the Cleric simply couldn't keep up with in healing, despite having SP to go around.

However, freeing up that SP so the Cleric could cast more offensively with impudence would increase the Clerics desirability for far more players and increase the liklihood of people playing battle Clerics as well.

You know, PLENTY of teams die all the time without a Cleric in the party.

Ok. Fine. Your opinion. However, has it not sunk in yet? The Clerics your so determined to 'help' do not want your 'help' and furthermore the Clerics are vehemently OPPOSED to this idea. Thats some big brass yarbals to TELL a class that you dont even play what is the best for them. Yea, the game would be better for those less then talented players that zerg and rely on the Cleric as crutch for bad gameplay. Yea, great for them, hell for the Cleric - thats why everyone here is TELLING YOU that this is in the top three bad ideas, ever.

Again, you have no idea how to play a Cleric, what they can or cannot do because you DON'T PLAY ONE! Why not go play one and actually learn what it is to be a Cleric and have some FACT to back up your 'suggestions'. Until you can do that and have some experience playing a Cleric, please, be quiet.

Freeing up SP? I see, you want Clerics to cast Heals with out a cost and be able to spam everything else they have memorized. Umm, have you REALLY put any thought into how unbalancing that would be for the game as a whole and not just Clerics?

Whats your next post going to be? You heard from a friend that CC is a pain you want CC based casters to be able to cast CC spells with no cost?

Please, stick to your right-click fest and leave the casters alone, Clerics included - we know what we are doing and we certainly do not need help from anyone that is not a Cleric themselves.

Arlith
08-28-2007, 07:37 PM
That's EXACTLY what I want.

If Clerics were allowed to chuck around some more of those interesting spells a bit more freely they wouldn't HAVE to be healbots. The cleric class would imrpove as a whole and more poeople would want to play them.


Why stop there?? Lets give Sorcs, Wizzies, and Bards spontaneous heal spells and we can reduce the wait for a Cleric even more. Even better lets give EVERYONE spontaneous heal spells and we will never have to wait for a Cleric again!

Better yet, let's do away with that pesky HP bar altogether and no one will need healing ever. Yeah, that's the ticket!

Nott
08-28-2007, 07:57 PM
If having sp enough for spells were enough to keep people alive why do people still die rather frequently no less, even when the Cleric has SP?

SP, in and of itself, is not enough to keep a player alive.

If I gave someone a hundred thousand heal scrolls, people on his team would still die now and again.If heals were truly free, the healbot would simply be spam healing. Be the cost SP, platinum, or a pile of healing items, there is a resource that must be managed, and this prevents spam healing. Under your proposal, there is no resource to manage, leading to spam healing and removing most of the challenge the game currently offers.

You're clearly not going to sway even a single opinion as noone sees this your way. This isn't a debate, its you trying to convince anyone that will listen but noone who will listen agrees with you. If you believe you're right, you should stop looking for validation as its clear noone is going to offer it to you.

cridus
08-28-2007, 08:13 PM
I don't run with a "LEET" guild, just a bunch of people who like to have fun like myself. When I'm running with guildies I don't care about how much my inventory is deflating. Now I also PuG a tremendous amount, I like getting different flavors. So yes I do go through more wands then some of the posters have mentioned. Use 1 CSW wand every 4-5 quests???? lol I burn at least 1 wand every quest, sometimes more. Why cause I like tossing out a few of those "uber" clerical spells, but I need my SP for combat healing so I wand whip, probably more than I should. And I have a bad habit of Topping people off, but that is what I do, so I go through more wands then usual, But to suggest giving my cleric free healing spells. well why not break the game. Unlimited healing for one defeats the purpose of buying healing pots and wands, as I can just stand there and spam CMW mass for free. Managing my SP so I can use a few nice spells, keep people alive and still have sp left over for the "final" room. Is like a mini game in itself.

Currently lvl 12, starting a quest I have 1017 sp thanks to TWF a magi and a wizardy item. I use the extra sp for the few buffs I use, (buffs are for the other classes to do, I only have mass SoF and Mass Aid, with a nightshield and Owl's Wisdom for myself) so with my buffing and maybe 2 resists on my self I have my bonus sp used and switch to a shield and weapon of choice (carrying seven cause I like to fight too). I toss out a Greater Command, Command, Soundburst, Cometfall a few times, and I use a wand to heal as everyone currently is nicely buffed and not taking much damage usually. When I hit half mana I stop using my offensive spells and conserve my sp for combat healing, also equip my potency scepter at this point, I wand whip to keep people moving (I know people should have pots, guess I'm a sucker) and save my sp.

Don't give clerics unlimited healing it would totally break the game, unsigned.

my 2cp

Vox
08-28-2007, 10:51 PM
Not a single person mentioned how terribly unsatisfying it is to succeed at anything with a cleric standing there spamming heal scrolls. Seriously... I feel about as accomplished as if I stole candy from the quadriplegic ****** having an epileptic fit. Not at all.

This suggestion is not dumb because it's game breaking. It's not dumb because it's unbalanced... it's dumb because it's unfun. I didn't have fun spending 3-5 CSW wands in wizzy king, and I didn't have fun the first time I went into GH Tor and got told I needed a stack of 100 Heal scrolls to succeed. I learned from Wizzy king, and I didn't need 1 Heal scroll for the dragons. Even on elite I only use about 25 heal scrolls for all 3 dragons (more on White than Blue, more on Blue than Black;) and I think that's acceptable for content that most people won't even try, let alone be capable (calm down forum elitists... we are a small percentage, seriously tell me how many GH Tor Elite Scale runs you see in LFM;)

On top of that, there is one essential difference between an SP free Heal and a scroll. I have to swap equipment to use the scroll. Do you really want to see a server full of battle cleric dwarves who never have to stop swinging their axe? Seriously, everyone would build an 11 CLR/9 Barb dwarf and spec for axes. They'd go in and mow things down periodically casting Heal on themselves. I bet a talented guy like that could solo the DQ without ever moving.

*sigh* I can't believe I got suckered in and responded to this thread... ahhh well, boredom does terrible things to the soul.

Vox

Dingo123
08-28-2007, 11:24 PM
If heals were truly free, the healbot would simply be spam healing. Be the cost SP, platinum, or a pile of healing items, there is a resource that must be managed, and this prevents spam healing. Under your proposal, there is no resource to manage, leading to spam healing and removing most of the challenge the game currently offers.

You're clearly not going to sway even a single opinion as noone sees this your way. This isn't a debate, its you trying to convince anyone that will listen but noone who will listen agrees with you. If you believe you're right, you should stop looking for validation as its clear noone is going to offer it to you.


Actually, people would be LESS LIKLELY to spam heals.. because they would be able to use that SP for more proactive things.

PaintHorseCowboy
08-28-2007, 11:46 PM
People say infinite free SP is broken, people would leave in disgust, it's terribly unbalanced, etc etc etc.

Let's say I have a few million gold pieces. I buy a few thousand heal scrolls. I now have a vast supply of free SP. Even if it costs me Plat... I still have nearly endless amounts of free healing power.

So on one hand, you're in favor of a player having vast quantities of free spell points... but on the other hand, you're against a player having vast quantities of free spell points.

Does the scroll SP cost plat? Certainly. So who does that favor? The Cleric with money. The Cleric with money has endless amounts of free SP... the broke Cleric is feverishly using his last wand.

We already have a system of sp free healing spells. You just have to be wealthy to take advantage of it.

You're not getting the concept.

I fear it will take a wrecking ball/pile driver to make this sink into your skull.

This game has a history, probably longer than you've been around, certainly longer than you've been playing it. I cannot remember who it was that said it, but many of us were drawn to it because of the name and the fact that it does have a history which all of us are familiar with.

The Dev's realized that limiting the number of casts to the number of spell slots per day would be an unworkable solution for such a fast-paced game. They implemented the SP system in it's place. This was not a made-up-from-thin-air solution. I forget which manual, but one of them actually presented the premise of spell points in lieu of spells-per-day which was usable if the DM approved.

Pick up a player's handbook. At level 14, a cleric gets 3 level six spells, PER DAY (which equates to per rest shrine in this game). It has been that way for 20+ years.

The change you are suggesting is not only so radical it will unbalance the game, but departs from traditional PnP rule in such an extreme manner that it very likely WILL cause the crowd drawn to the game because of it's background to depart in disgust.

You can say whatever you wish about this being an elitist attitude. I will say it is NOT an elitist attitude. Those of us "geeks" who have spent hours hunched over a table working our way through some module understand the way of this game and know and expect that you will need scrolls or wands at some point during many adventures. If you manage to get through them without using up all your spells per day, you were incredibly lucky, or the DM had used up his allotment of 20's in any given die (those of us who were geeks will also understand and appreciate the humor of this statement.).

I do not know your background, but it sounds as if you never played PnP. You are simply a product of the computer game genre, do not know the history, do not care to know the history, and do not care to have the online version resemble the PnP game on which it is based in any manner what-so-ever.

The arguements you have presented here are circuitous. You continue to equate scrolls and wands to "FREE" spell points. They are certainly not free. You have even noted this yourself by saying many clerics are poor. Well, in PnP, many clerics ARE poor. You should be grateful the Dev's have a brain that works (*grin* on occasion). Try reading about tithing to your diety sometime when you have a minute. Be grateful they didn't implement that. How about we take all plat away from our clerics and send it to the church? Then the party will be required to purchase the items needed to heal itself. Perhaps then it will limit the amount of mana sponging. Yes, wands and scrolls extend the ability of the cleric to continue to heal after their SP are depleted. I say, that is exactly as they were intended to do. If they were not intended to do this, they wouldn't exist in the game.

The point of the matter is, you are allowed to cast so many spells for "free" with your spell points. After that, you have to manage your resources. It provides some challenge to the game. The change you suggest, no, verily demand, would literally break this game.

Dingo123
08-29-2007, 12:28 AM
The change you are suggesting is not only so radical it will unbalance the game, but departs from traditional PnP rule in such an extreme manner that it very likely WILL cause the crowd drawn to the game because of it's background to depart in disgust.

You mean... like Enhancements? I see absolutely no where in the PHB anything about Dwaves getting bonuses to Axe damage, much less warforged getting benefits to power attack, nor Barbarians for that matter.


Those of us "geeks" who have spent hours hunched over a table working our way through some module understand the way of this game and know and expect that you will need scrolls or wands at some point during many adventures.

A few hundred?


I do not know your background, but it sounds as if you never played PnP.

I have the better part of a grand and a half worth of 3.5 Books not six feet from me.


You are simply a product of the computer game genre, do not know the history, do not care to know the history, and do not care to have the online version resemble the PnP game on which it is based in any manner what-so-ever.

Thanks for your masterful, yet wrong, analysis.


The arguements you have presented here are circuitous. You continue to equate scrolls and wands to "FREE" spell points. They are certainly not free. You have even noted this yourself by saying many clerics are poor. Well, in PnP, many clerics ARE poor. You should be grateful the Dev's have a brain that works (*grin* on occasion). Try reading about tithing to your diety sometime when you have a minute.


There are no Tithing mechanics in 3.5, shall we make saves for breathe weapons next?


Yes, wands and scrolls extend the ability of the cleric to continue to heal after their SP are depleted. I say, that is exactly as they were intended to do. If they were not intended to do this, they wouldn't exist in the game.

Glad to see you agree with me.


The point of the matter is, you are allowed to cast so many spells for "free" with your spell points. After that, you have to manage your resources. It provides some challenge to the game. The change you suggest, no, verily demand, would literally break this game.

People carry on and on about DDO would just implode if Clerics could endlessly heal... which, truth be told, they can. So long as they have a scroll in their hand, and cash in their pocket they can chuck out heals.


Someone should try explaining why the game would "esplode" if Clerics were not charged for healing spells.

Tenkari_Rozahas
08-29-2007, 12:45 AM
as a player of a cleric, i say no. If I suck at managing my SP, i shouldnt beable to heal for free. in ALL the mmo's i've ever played, no ones ever gotten unlimited abilities as a Play character, this would go completely against everything and quite possibly ruin the game. If this change were to happen I for one would just toss my cleric out the window. if you manage your SP right, you should beable to toss out CC spells and such while still healing and not run out of SP. they have those SP restoring post around for a reason, same with the spell storing rings THOSE are free SP, not wands and scrolls.

smodge13
08-29-2007, 01:35 AM
*heals Dingo*, there feeblemind is gone.

^_^

seriously, i dont see how you can possibly consider it a good idea that healing could EVER be free, if you've played 3.5 please try to justify in any way how that is within the ruleset?
unless of course your treating it like baldurs gate game (step into room, do battle, rest 8 hours, rinse, repeat)
Action pts are in ebberron, they allow you to make reroll and alter dice rolls per session, this is a simpler way to fix things.
if you do play pnp, please tell me how you handle healing do your players heal for free?.
Healing should never be free, otherwise everyone will just take 1 level of clr in their builds and there we go they can all heal themselves to full whenever they want.

I myself am a games student, hence i study games and analyze them, risk vs reward is one of the most important things in a game (fun and challenge are most important and risk vs reward is part of challenge) and in no way, should a character be able to use its strongest abilities whenever it wants, while we're at it with your idea, paladins can LoH/smite whenever they want, bard/sorc/wizards spells are unlimited, barbarians rage can be used at any time.

Sure great idea, to be serious, in my opinion (safety so i dont get in trouble) this is the most stupid idea ever suggested on the forums and i've seen alot of stupid idea's.

should healing ever be completely free it will completely break the game, currently it is limited by the sp/shines/plat the character has access to, which as it currently is plenty.

GeneralDiomedes
08-29-2007, 01:53 AM
People carry on and on about DDO would just implode if Clerics could endlessly heal... which, truth be told, they can. So long as they have a scroll in their hand, and cash in their pocket they can chuck out heals.

Someone should try explaining why the game would "esplode" if Clerics were not charged for healing spells.

Gameplay would become as stupid as this thread. Tactics would go out the window. People would run with 4 Barbarians and 2 clerics exclusively. What is your point again?

Actually you have a point around the unlimited availability of scrolls .. but you came up with the wrong answer.

Surprising for someone who supposedly plays PnP.

Dingo123
08-29-2007, 02:12 AM
Gameplay would become as stupid as this thread. Tactics would go out the window. People would run with 4 Barbarians and 2 clerics exclusively. What is your point again?

Actually you have a point around the unlimited availability of scrolls .. but you came up with the wrong answer.

Surprising for someone who supposedly plays PnP.


People would still die endlessly with four barbarians and 2 Clerics.

The unlimited availability of scrolls means what I'm proposing is already in the gane, if you have the cash.

smodge13
08-29-2007, 02:18 AM
People would still die endlessly with four barbarians and 2 Clerics.

The unlimited availability of scrolls means what I'm proposing is already in the gane, if you have the cash.

Scrolls are limited by a cooldown timer and how many you can carry, cash may be all the limit there is, but it IS a limit, and a limit of how many heals per quest is required, even if that limit is nigh infinite, just because we have 200 scrolls doesnt mean we want to use them, and even with tonne's of plat, doesnt mean your willing to blow it all in 1 quest, y is this, because there IS a cost associated with the scrolls, thereby limiting a quest to what resources your willing to put in it.

wundernewb
08-29-2007, 07:32 AM
Someone should try explaining why the game would "esplode" if Clerics were not charged for healing spells.

D&D (or any other adventure game, be it on a table, or on a computer) is about resource management.

The amount of spells usable in a given time, be it limited by spells per day, or a pool of "mana", is a staple of such games.

You can argue that healing is effectively free now, only limited by how much plat one has. Plat is a resource, and as such, must be managed. IMO, something is wrong with how plat gain is handled, if scrolls, potions, wands, etc. can be purchased in such quantities as to make healing seem "free", but that's another kettle of fish entirely.

Making healing completely free would have an adverse effect on the game, because it would be removing a manageable resource that is key to gameplay.

teddok
08-29-2007, 07:38 AM
Actually, people would be LESS LIKLELY to spam heals.. because they would be able to use that SP for more proactive things.

Please stop. We have told you repeateatly over and over that this will not work nor is it a good idea. All you are doing is proving that you are ignorant. Every single post says that you are wrong. EVERY SINGLE ONE
What will it take to get you to stop. Please can we get this thread ended.

teddok
08-29-2007, 07:44 AM
You mean... like Enhancements? I see absolutely no where in the PHB anything about Dwaves getting bonuses to Axe damage, much less warforged getting benefits to power attack, nor Barbarians for that matter.


If you ever bothered to read the Ebborron book you would see that Action points are part of the game setting. Secondly this is a video game based off of D&D. Please stop this stupid thread. It serves no point what so ever.

blakbyrd
08-29-2007, 07:56 AM
But the essence is the same.

Regardless of how you GOT the sp... you're walking into that quest with far and away more SP than norm. Clerics have been known to walk into Raids and burn 100 Heal Scrolls.

Could they have done that without those heal scrolls?


I'm telling you the game would change relatively little for the worse and far more for the better.

PLENTY of teams have died while the cleric had full SP, or close to it.

Legions of teams have had dead members that the Cleric simply couldn't keep up with in healing, despite having SP to go around.

However, freeing up that SP so the Cleric could cast more offensively with impudence would increase the CLerics desirability for far more players and increase the liklihood of people playing battle Clerics as well.

To me this is a valid point, however it is also in the wrong discussion entirely. The situations you mention certainly can and do happen, but in many of such situations it wouldnt even matter if the cleric had unlimited mana. As you state they can't put out enough heals or morelikely unable to put out heal fast enough. To me this has nothing to do with the mechanics of the game o the manner in which mana works. It has entirely to do with the ability of the group compared to the difficulty of what they are attempting. Many groups just cant seem to work together or dont care, and many also try things way to hard for their group as well. This is not a problem with the cleric or mana/unlimted mana. No cleric can compensate for a completely bad group.

The point of wands and scroll are not really a means of unlimited sp, as to view them that way is outrageously expensive. Rather they are a means of compensation on several levels.
1. non-clerics can use them (if people even bother, but they are there and somone else using a wond charge on occasion saves time and mana on the cleric...1 wand on such a character can last a long time)
2. in a cleric's hands, they can give them access to more spells than they can memorize to use.
3. In a cleric's hands a wand or scroll can help bypass spell timers to cast spells more quickly than they could strickly from mana (allowing over time more spells to be cast, yet the same amount of mana used).
4. clerics and non-clerics can use the scrolls or wands to cast spells a level higher than they can currently cast from the memorized list.

Regardless, whether people want to see wands and scrolls as unlimted mana or not, the point remains that they save mana. In a way they are free mana, but like everything else there is a trade off. Free mana costs money, just as a mana costing spell costs no money...they balance out. The trick comes when the cleric can efficiently balance out the use of the two to a minimal or non-financial cost to the most efficient means for them and the group.

There are costs involved to running any quest, whether it is in wands/scrolls, cure potions, repairs, etc. The cohesiveness of the group to act as a group is a direct reflection of whether or not those costs (mana included) will be high or low. A bad group is going to be more costly than a good group, etc.

However, no group should enter a quest with the assumption that the cleric is supposed to be the only reason they survive (a few quests require a cleric when certain tactics are used but those are special circumstances).

If we decide to just give clerics unlimited mana, what is that going to produce? It doesn't allow them to cast things any faster, which means as stated above, even with unlimited mana they wont be able to put out enough heals in bad situations anyways, so it gains no benefit there. What it produces is an effect that bad for the game though. It produces the ability for people to start walking into quests that they have no business being in yet (ie: more constant forms of powerleveling). It will allow lower level players to skip more content and just jump to higher level stuff, since the group can expend alot of effort and resources per small battle (that they otherwise would have for the whole quest) and then just let the cleric put them all back to full status and move to the next battle. It produces the effect of negating a large part of the gameplay and tactics that D&D is, making it closer to another shake'n'bake MMO. Not to mention the enormous arguements, fights and debates that will immediately follow regarding why all other mana classes cant have unlimited mana as well.

Going for unlimited mana seems to incur that the intention is to make things easier, not better. Cater to those who can't play well or can't work well with a group, which is entirely bad for the game and could kill it all together. A sense of wanting to know that you can enter almost any quest with a near 0% failure rate, since people can play about as badly as they want, knowing that an unlimited source of healing, debuffing and bad player correction is following you around. For that matter, shouldnt clerics also be given unlimted DVs? why wouldnt that be fair to all other mana casting classes?

The idea that it would make more people want to play clerics is not the problem. The problem is that many who shouldnt be playing them are playing them. Being the healing cleric is a skill that not everyone has (not if you want to be a good an efficient one). The game certainly doesn't need more bad clerics, what it needs is more good healing clerics, and throwing out unlimited mana is just going to flood the world with clerics who tend to take unlimited mana as meaning anyone can effectively play one, when it's experience and efficiency that is needed, not just free reign to go casting with no cost.

Cowdenicus
08-29-2007, 07:59 AM
let this die.

teddok
08-29-2007, 08:29 AM
let this die.

/signed

Epsilom
08-29-2007, 08:50 AM
Someone should try explaining why the game would "esplode" if Clerics were not charged for healing spells.
This is Why (as if you haven't gotten enough reasons)
Keyword: Balance.
-Every other class would expect a similar payout.
By your rationale, a Wizard should get ALL BUFFS FREE... so he has more SP to do what he likes! Like nuke, be a battle-wiz, or conjure celestial dogs. The fact a Wizard has to Buy Scrolls/Wands means he should have those for free.. right?

-A team with more than one cleric will be able to outheal any mob damage in the game.

-Everyone will multiclass cleric.

-There will be No Challenge! Someone said it before...Cut to the root of it all, and just Remove the HP and SP bars, that would equate to your "Idea" dingo

BTW...Scrolls and Wands are NOT free SP... You can't make a Heal scroll cast Rez. They are not interchangable, it's one Single (Paid for) cast of the inscribed spell, so how can you count it as Free SP? A Mnemonic pot is Free SP. Not a scroll.

An equivalent alternative to your idea...
All clerics get given unlimited Mnemonic potions, and scrolls and wands.. and a set of +5 adam FP, a few nice sheilds.. and a Superior 6 devotion item AT CREATION!
All min lvl 1 (just in case some people have trouble getting to lvl 2, we need more cotton wool for those)
If those don't suit, you can always go with the HP/SP bar removal.
..

teddok
08-29-2007, 08:55 AM
This is Why (as if you haven't gotten enough reasons)
Keyword: Balance.
-Every other class would expect a similar payout.
By your rationale, a Wizard should get ALL BUFFS FREE... so he has more SP to do what he likes! Like nuke, be a battle-wiz, or conjure celestial dogs. The fact a Wizard has to Buy Scrolls/Wands means he should have those for free.. right?

-A team with more than one cleric will be able to outheal any mob damage in the game.

-Everyone will multiclass cleric.

-There will be No Challenge! Someone said it before...Cut to the root of it all, and just Remove the HP and SP bars, that would equate to your "Idea" dingo

BTW...Scrolls and Wands are NOT free SP... You can't make a Heal scroll cast Rez. They are not interchangable, it's one Single (Paid for) cast of the inscribed spell, so how can you count it as Free SP? A Mnemonic pot is Free SP. Not a scroll.

An equivalent alternative to your idea...
All clerics get given unlimited Mnemonic potions, and scrolls and wands.. and a set of +5 adam FP, a few nice sheilds.. and a Superior 6 devotion item AT CREATION!
All min lvl 1 (just in case some people have trouble getting to lvl 2, we need more cotton wool for those)
If those don't suit, you can always go with the HP/SP bar removal.
..


/signed

Furgulder
08-29-2007, 09:15 AM
let this die.


Sorry, with the changes coming to /death, this thread cannot be killed.

BUpcott
08-29-2007, 09:20 AM
Sorry, with the changes coming to /death, this thread cannot be killed.

WHAT?!?! what does the /death change have to do with unlimited heals (the spontaneous ones, meaning no HEAL only the CURE WOUNDS line)

Lorien_the_First_One
08-29-2007, 09:34 AM
Sorry, with the changes coming to /death, this thread cannot be killed.

You have to be stupid to have to /death for poison, stat damage, level damage, blindness, etc. The /death change, with the possible exception of the feeblemind issue which looks like it will be addressed, is an issue of laziness not spell points.

A wand of each is dirt cheap and I find enough of them that I pretty much have never had to buy one anyway. Many effects can be prevented or cured by pots and preventitive items. (Oh, the tanks are running through poison without their poison item again and complaining about stat damage? Hmm...who's fault is that?) Even greater restoration scrolls are reasonably priced (never cast restore by sp myself... try to deathward where i think its necessary, scroll if they date levels anyway since a scroll is as effecient as an sp cast but heals are more efficent when cast by spells)

Sojourner
08-29-2007, 11:08 AM
Sorry, with the changes coming to /death, this thread cannot be killed.

LOL. Even funnier because of the last two poster's responses.

blakbyrd
08-29-2007, 11:21 AM
Well, I havent heard about the chage to /death and am now curious about it and will ahve to go dig it up unless someone here wants to explain.

For me /death is very handy in a few limited circumstances, and I typically use it not out of preference or any desire to do so, but because for the group it is more efficient for me to do so.

VoN3 is a a good example, when facing all the beholders. You wont always be in a group that has someone who can nail PK practically every time, and occasionally people will have to face the beholders in melee. I do this quite often when I take new groups through. In the process I can get level drained to no end. If I get drained more than 2 levels it is much more mana efficient to simply die and rez at a shrine or by spell/scroll than it is to have the cleric waste tons of mana on full restores or greater restores. The whole process of death certainly isnt very beneficial to me, but it is quite beneficial to the group. As for stat damage, poison and the like, there is no need to /death. Those items can be cured by anyone on their own (if they desire to prepare for it). As for feeblemind, that is problematic at times but I believe that is being corrected.

Nott
08-29-2007, 11:27 AM
Actually, people would be LESS LIKLELY to spam heals.. because they would be able to use that SP for more proactive things.
They can cast those proactive things now. The difference is currently there's a resource to manage (pick the resource... SP, or platinum). Under your plan you eliminate an overwhelming portion of resource management, which results in an unhealthy lack of balance.


I don't see how you could think for a minute the game would not become less challenging if healing were free. Do you think the game is currently too challenging? Given that there are no clerics posting agreement for your plight, and that you indicate you don't play a cleric, what makes you think you know more than the people who would be most directly affected under your master plan?

Really, this whole discussion is without merit; you have too much arrogance to see the flaw in what you've come up with. I'll join the "let this thread die" crowd.

Arlith
08-29-2007, 12:27 PM
Someone should try explaining why the game would "esplode" if Clerics were not charged for healing spells.

Because as soon as it happened, a sorc would argue the same reasons for not being charged for their spells. They can get scrolls, that's "free mana" so why should sorcs have to buy scrolls when clerics don't. Or a wizzy or bard. Or even a cleric coming back and saying, why am I charged for buff's? Theres no point, give me those for free.

And no, "It's not different". There is no end of "free mana" for anyone. Scrolls and pots are available for anyone with the time to loot them or the money to buy them.

Sometimes, the best way to stop the madness is to never let it start.

cardmj1
08-30-2007, 08:15 AM
I have a level 14 cleric and I use wands and scrolls but not to a great extent. I love my cometfall, destruction, greater command, flamestrike, and try using bane. Lovely low level spells help keep mana usage under control. But I also say no to free heals. A better idea is in the chest. Instead of a single scroll in the chest, why don't you put a stack worth the same amount as the equivalent weapon in the chest for the clerics. Let's face it, cleric wands and scrolls are expensive enough and our haggle is awful! Instead of giving us weapons that we sell with an excruciating low haggle and then turn around and buy our wands scrolls with that same haggle, give us the wands and the amounted scrolls in the chest.

JelloMold
08-30-2007, 08:24 AM
I have a level 14 cleric and I use wands and scrolls but not to a great extent. I love my cometfall, destruction, greater command, flamestrike, and try using bane. Lovely low level spells help keep mana usage under control. But I also say no to free heals. A better idea is in the chest. Instead of a single scroll in the chest, why don't you put a stack worth the same amount as the equivalent weapon in the chest for the clerics. Let's face it, cleric wands and scrolls are expensive enough and our haggle is awful! Instead of giving us weapons that we sell with an excruciating low haggle and then turn around and buy our wands scrolls with that same haggle, give us the wands and the amounted scrolls in the chest.

OK, not to disagree with you because I think you have a point there ,but can you imagine looting 18,000 gps worth of scrolls of magic missle?:eek:

blakbyrd
08-30-2007, 08:44 AM
OK, not to disagree with you because I think you have a point there ,but can you imagine looting 18,000 gps worth of scrolls of magic missle?:eek:

I would have to laugh and cry at the same time

Sani
08-30-2007, 09:13 AM
more holy smite wands = less healing wands

And they're more fun. :D

I don't mind spending on wands, and people are generally fairly helpful with the costs anyways.

Drailog
08-30-2007, 09:25 AM
If you're spending money as a cleric, you're doing something wrong. Clerics don't have tons of mana, but they certainly have enough to get the job done without having to rely on wands and scrolls.

You should be able to make to to level 10-12 with only a dozen wands or so. And even in the end-game missions you should only be using a wand every 4 or 5 missions. Scrolls you should be using even less of. Scrolls are emergency backup.


I generally carry:
* Remove Poison Wand
* Lesser Restoration Wand
* Remove Blindness Wand
* Maybe a Remove Disease wand, but can't remember for certain
* 3 CSW Wands
* 30 Raise Dead Scrolls
* 30 Heal Scrolls

The scrolls are mostly carried for Titan Raid or Reaver Pre-Raid, don't think they get used anywhere else.


Take a look at your playstyle, figure out where you are using most of your scrolls and wands, and then quit doing it.
* Don't top off party members, its a waste of manna.
* Get them to about 80-90% health and call it good.
* Max our your heal skill or get a heal item and get everyone to rest next to you.
* Use your offensive spells when doing so will cost less mana than it would to heal people afterwards otherwise
* Let the pallys and rangers do some of the simple buffs like resist energy

.

Could you be any more full of yourself and full of some other excretions? I mean give me a break. The clerics I group with, for the most part, are very good to awesome clerics and I despise getting into a group of incompetent people so i avoid it at all costs... with that being said, the clerics I group with always use healing wands especially end game group quests on elite. So please go lie to other people or stay with your extreme elitist groups

DFBlair
08-30-2007, 09:32 AM
Sorry Dude :cool:
Just can't agree with the no or little use of wands. Ya they cost a ton but if your good at healing, people do donate to the cause. I am not saying you should have to chase after people to heal them, but keeping them topped up and ready to go gets the quest done.
And if people don't kick in when needed then stop using the wands and use mana only they will change there playing style quick lol!:cool:

AIDMAN

BUpcott
08-30-2007, 09:33 AM
Could you be any more full of yourself and full of some other excretions? I mean give me a break. The clerics I group with, for the most part, are very good to awesome clerics and I despise getting into a group of incompetent people so i avoid it at all costs... with that being said, the clerics I group with always use healing wands especially end game group quests on elite. So please go lie to other people or stay with your extreme elitist groups

He really isn't being elitist. Clerics should not be relying on wands and scrolls. They are not there to be a crutch they are there to helpful.

Drailog
08-30-2007, 09:35 AM
I think something nice to solve this might be enhancements that lower the spell point costs for clerics, and clerics alone. They are the primary healers after all....

In pen and paper, a Sorcerer caps at 6 spells per day per spell level, a wizard caps at 4 spells per day per level and clerics cap at 5 normal spells per day and 1 domain spell per day per level... so in theory clerics has the same amount of spells as a sorcerer but more than a wizard. and yet clerics normally have less spell points than a wizard and definitely less than a sorcerer.

with that being said, either give them 1) enhancements that lower spell costs for healing spells OR give them 2) the same size spell point pool that a sorcerer has..... the problem with giving them the same size spell point pool is you make battle clerics more common and too powerful, imo. So I say with give them the healing enhancements for less spell points based upon a number or a percent.

Aranticus
08-30-2007, 09:41 AM
Could you be any more full of yourself and full of some other excretions? I mean give me a break. The clerics I group with, for the most part, are very good to awesome clerics and I despise getting into a group of incompetent people so i avoid it at all costs... with that being said, the clerics I group with always use healing wands especially end game group quests on elite. So please go lie to other people or stay with your extreme elitist groups

he's not being elitist, you are being noob. i just did a few quest in GH and did not touch a single charge of my wands for some of them. smart tactics are the way to go. get melees to block doors, caster lay firewall insta kill casters, cleric gtr command archers. the damage taken? nothing a mass clw or mass cmw cannot heal. ther you go. 70 sp for 1 fight. my clr has 1330 sp, so thats roughly 15 fights with spare change. no offense to the clerics you group with but i think its not their fault but the entire's group failure to play smarter

BUpcott
08-30-2007, 09:44 AM
I think something nice to solve this might be enhancements that lower the spell point costs for clerics, and clerics alone. They are the primary healers after all....

No, no, no and no. The you'll have sorcs and wizs wanting the same. This is only slightly different than what dumbgo...err dingo suggested. If you do that then wizs will want a certain type of spell to have that enhancement. Oh and clerics already have an enhancement to lower sp for heal while at the same time making it more powerful, Improved Empower Healing. Its their choice if they don't take the feat.

Belfalcon
08-30-2007, 09:47 AM
i have 2 lvl 14 clerics and i have no problems with my mana i think you just need to roll up a other class

Belfalcon
08-30-2007, 09:50 AM
Alrighty, no wands... go do madstone crater, elite, no wands. No scrolls. And since you're so good at what you do, no pots of any sort for you or them. Oh, and you're the only one healing.

Come back.

Tell me how it went.

i dont even think i use a full wand in madstone on Elite.... and maby 10-20 heal scrolls ... but i do have 1300mana

teddok
08-30-2007, 10:03 AM
Originally Posted by Dingo123
Alrighty, no wands... go do madstone crater, elite, no wands. No scrolls. And since you're so good at what you do, no pots of any sort for you or them. Oh, and you're the only one healing.

Come back.

Tell me how it went.
Uhh 14 charges of my CSW, 9 charge CMW, 5 Heal scrolls, Maybe 2 or 3 CMMS and that was it.

thatguy
08-30-2007, 10:06 AM
If you're spending money as a cleric, you're doing something wrong. Clerics don't have tons of mana, but they certainly have enough to get the job done without having to rely on wands and scrolls.

You should be able to make to to level 10-12 with only a dozen wands or so. And even in the end-game missions you should only be using a wand every 4 or 5 missions. Scrolls you should be using even less of. Scrolls are emergency backup.


I generally carry:
* Remove Poison Wand
* Lesser Restoration Wand
* Remove Blindness Wand
* Maybe a Remove Disease wand, but can't remember for certain
* 3 CSW Wands
* 30 Raise Dead Scrolls
* 30 Heal Scrolls

The scrolls are mostly carried for Titan Raid or Reaver Pre-Raid, don't think they get used anywhere else.


Take a look at your playstyle, figure out where you are using most of your scrolls and wands, and then quit doing it.
* Don't top off party members, its a waste of manna.
* Get them to about 80-90% health and call it good.
* Max our your heal skill or get a heal item and get everyone to rest next to you.
* Use your offensive spells when doing so will cost less mana than it would to heal people afterwards otherwise
* Let the pallys and rangers do some of the simple buffs like resist energy

.


30 Raise Dead Scrolls, 30 Heal Scrolls!!!!

I guess you don't do elite quests then. The other night we ran the Stormreaver on elite and I burned through 60 heal scrolls. I try to keep about 200 on me at all times, not so much on the raise dead scrolls because people partying with me cleric don't die that often. Unless your a caster type with 50 hit points LoL. My cleric has 1270 SP and that was gone in no time. Playing cleric is expensive you need carry a ton of those scroll around at all times. I find it very hard to believe carry so few of them. I have fighters to simply fund my cleric habit.

Try healing a great axe wielding dwarven barbarian with a heal wand, he is going to die a lot and let you know it. Wands don't cut it in high end quests.

I am not the only that a **** load of scrolls around with me, its a must in high end content. Most of the clerics in our guild carry far more of these scrolls then I do. Have fun.

cardmj1
08-30-2007, 10:15 AM
OK, not to disagree with you because I think you have a point there ,but can you imagine looting 18,000 gps worth of scrolls of magic missle?:eek:


I was leaning towards clerical wands and scrolls. But yes, ouch on the cheaper scrolls. But look at it this way, 18,000 gps of firewall scrolls..... Can you say Auction House?

BUpcott
08-30-2007, 10:17 AM
My cleric has 1270 SP and that was gone in no time.

Just get your charge, SP problem solved.

Belfalcon
08-30-2007, 10:28 AM
i use NO wands or scrolls in the rever raid i just get the stadic charge and let if refill my mana.. .. .. don't understand way you need to bring any wands or scrolls to the reaver raid i have them but just for a back up
most of the time this is what i have on me
10CSW wands
100 healscrols
and some diff types of wands so i dont need to load some spells.. I.E. remove curs stuff like that
thats about it..

l'Aasin
08-30-2007, 10:34 AM
I've played clerics since beginning DDO over a year ago. Despite keeping a healthy stock of CSW wands, heal scrolls and res scrolls I still manage to keep more coin on this character than any other.

The lack of spell points isn't the reason that you don't see most clerics casting "more interesting spells". It's the fact that untill higher levels clerical offensive spells are by large not worth the spell points they cost to cast. If done properly they can benefit the group immensely, but as has been stated a few times already in this thread: you have to know what you're doing when playing a cleric in order to make this work.

Everyone should know before they even make a cleric that they are not going to be the mass killing machines that sorcs and wizards can be. You're going to be in the role of group support. It's in the why that you go about this that can make or break you as a cleric. You have to know when to cast offensively and when it's more beneficial to hold those spell points in reserve for healing. Those that have found their way of using this skill with the best outcome are usually respected for their abilities, those that can't whine about spending all their coin on wands and scrolls.

~Jules921
08-31-2007, 02:06 AM
.

Take a look at your playstyle, figure out where you are using most of your scrolls and wands, and then quit doing it.
* Don't top off party members, its a waste of manna.
* Get them to about 80-90% health and call it good.
* Max our your heal skill or get a heal item and get everyone to rest next to you.
* Use your offensive spells when doing so will cost less mana than it would to heal people afterwards otherwise
* Let the pallys and rangers do some of the simple buffs like resist energy

.

Some very good suggestions here Sojourner. Some I'm going to implement with MedicLady - those that she's not already doing ;) . You did forget my favorite - Tell the Barbarian to equip a shield :D :eek: :cool:

Jules

Arlith
08-31-2007, 05:09 AM
Try healing a great axe wielding dwarven barbarian with a heal wand, he is going to die a lot and let you know it. Wands don't cut it in high end quests.

That doesn't sound like a cleric problem, that sounds like a dwarven barbarian problem!

Aesop
08-31-2007, 07:52 AM
I can't believe this thread is still going... I mean really its not logical, not likely, not balanced, not happening. Why is it that threads like this go on forever?

Aesop

Riorik
08-31-2007, 07:53 AM
Gee, how would I respond to this suggestion?

NO

BUpcott
08-31-2007, 07:55 AM
I can't believe this thread is still going... I mean really its not logical, not likely, not balanced, not happening. Why is it that threads like this go on forever?

Aesop
I haven't seen the forum population this united in a single cause in awhile. Don't ruin it for me ;)

teddok
08-31-2007, 08:03 AM
I haven't seen the forum population this united in a single cause in awhile. Don't ruin it for me ;)

Yes we are all united for once. I never thought of that. But still please end this thread. Can we get a vote to get this thread removed

BUpcott
08-31-2007, 08:05 AM
Yes we are all united for once. I never thought of that. But still please end this thread. Can we get a vote to get this thread removed

/signed

P.S. If everyone could please grab your bags. Our next show, "Experience Potion", has already begun

parvo
08-31-2007, 08:24 AM
Listen... Clerics don't have enough SP.

They don't. They live off wands, they live off scrolls.

Whatever.

They don't have enough SP.

Clerics hardcore spec'd just for healing often have not enough SP.


So...

Just let Clerics cast their spontaneous healing spells for free.


Seriously. It would dramatically improve the game.


Listen, eventually it becomes an issue of how deep the Clerics pockets are... not skill... not SP management... but how many wands you have on you... how many heal scrolls.

It's got to stop.

So make Clerical healing free.

Test it.

Try it.

See for yourself.

This is a joke.

teddok
08-31-2007, 08:38 AM
/signed

P.S. If everyone could please grab your bags. Our next show, "Experience Potion", has already begun

Ohh heck yea. I got my popcorn ready.
You know at first this guy just ****ed me off with his ******** suggestions and comments. Know I finally under stand what it is he is trying to do.


He is trying to promote Unitity and work on his comedy rutine at the same time.
(unfortantly its so funny cause it stupid, not funny cause its funny. To each there own I guess.)

Ohh here is the link to his new comedy page

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=119768

Ezzee
08-31-2007, 09:29 AM
I know y'all want to put this thread to rest, but I just wanted to chime in here.

First, lets think about what clerics are for? Clerics are there to make sure the party stays on it's feet, and can complete quests. This means healing. This means restore. This means raising dead. And, sometimes, this means cometfall or slay living.

Now, if you want to make the game so horribly easy, you give clerics unlimited mana. There is a reason that clerics don't have unlimited mana for healing spells. You want to know why? Real simple. If they did have unlimited mana, you would have a group of lvl one toons running PoP on Elite. And that makes no sense. Just like anything else, it's a resource.

I play a cleric. I have no problem with the cost of playing a cleric. I always carry around a maximum compliment of heal and raise dead scrolls, as well as several CSW wands. Do I run out of mana? Yeah, sometimes I do. No doubt about that. THat's why I have wands and scrolls. Would I want unlimited mana for healing? No. If I had unlimited mana for healing, I would delete my cleric right now, because I think that is just wrong.

Clerics who are having problems with SP don't know the tricks of the trade. I don't like to heal a person in combat unless their bar is at probably half. Then I just cast a full heal which cures for about 300 HP. I will top everyone off if I feel there is a need for it. For example, if several people have a good chunk missing from their health bar, I will have everyone gather for a mass cure serious. I will not heal people who run off. I don't chase people. ANd I don't heal people who demand it. These are just a few of my tricks of the trade. And I do just fine on mana. But, as always donations are greatly appreciated. While I believe in socialized medicine, I won't turn away a little bling bling here and there.

Ever play the PNP game? You have 3 spells at lvl 1. Which basically means you have 3 cure light spells. You have a ton more healing in this game then you do in PNP.

But, here is a suggestion. If you don't want to be a burden on the cleric, then you should carry pots on your toons and tell the cleric that they don't have to heal you, ever. That way, the have one less person to worry about.

What's next? Giving arcane spellcasters unlimited mana for offensive spells? Or Bards unlimited songs? OH wait, I know. XP Pots. Even better.

buzzter
08-31-2007, 10:47 AM
What kind of crack are you on? Clerics have plenty of SP for healing. You are just pugging with the wrong groups. If you have any TWF's, Zergers or trap blitzers just plain don't heal them. They are mana leachers and don't deserve to get healed.


Listen... Clerics don't have enough SP.

They don't. They live off wands, they live off scrolls.

Whatever.

They don't have enough SP.

Clerics hardcore spec'd just for healing often have not enough SP.


So...

Just let Clerics cast their spontaneous healing spells for free.


Seriously. It would dramatically improve the game.


Listen, eventually it becomes an issue of how deep the Clerics pockets are... not skill... not SP management... but how many wands you have on you... how many heal scrolls.

It's got to stop.

So make Clerical healing free.

Test it.

Try it.

See for yourself.

Spookydodger
08-31-2007, 11:02 AM
Alrighty, no wands... go do madstone crater, elite, no wands. No scrolls. And since you're so good at what you do, no pots of any sort for you or them. Oh, and you're the only one healing.

Come back.

Tell me how it went.

It went fine, thank you for asking. It was a struggle there towards the middle and the end, but thanks to everyone else self-healing between fights, and some nice charms, it went swimmingly.

Thanks for asking. :D

Cinwulf
08-31-2007, 11:10 AM
Only if we can make bard enchantment spells free also :p j/k :)

Cinwulf
08-31-2007, 11:12 AM
/signed

P.S. If everyone could please grab your bags. Our next show, "Experience Potion", has already begun

lol :p

oronisi
08-31-2007, 11:14 AM
If you're spending money as a cleric, you're doing something wrong. Clerics don't have tons of mana, but they certainly have enough to get the job done without having to rely on wands and scrolls.

You should be able to make to to level 10-12 with only a dozen wands or so. And even in the end-game missions you should only be using a wand every 4 or 5 missions. Scrolls you should be using even less of. Scrolls are emergency backup.


I generally carry:
* Remove Poison Wand
* Lesser Restoration Wand
* Remove Blindness Wand
* Maybe a Remove Disease wand, but can't remember for certain
* 3 CSW Wands
* 30 Raise Dead Scrolls
* 30 Heal Scrolls

The scrolls are mostly carried for Titan Raid or Reaver Pre-Raid, don't think they get used anywhere else.


Take a look at your playstyle, figure out where you are using most of your scrolls and wands, and then quit doing it.
* Don't top off party members, its a waste of manna.
* Get them to about 80-90% health and call it good.
* Max our your heal skill or get a heal item and get everyone to rest next to you.
* Use your offensive spells when doing so will cost less mana than it would to heal people afterwards otherwise
* Let the pallys and rangers do some of the simple buffs like resist energy

.

Let me expand on the "If you're spending money as a cleric, you're doing something wrong. "...

This isn't necessarily something that you did wrong in building your character or playing your character. What may be wrong is that you are grouping with idiots, or taking on too difficult challenges. Your flaw is that you are trying to help out the party past all realistic boundaries.

I only drop money / wands on my cleric if I want to complete the quest, want everyone in my party to complete the quest, and know we bit off more than we could chew. Otherwise, I rarely use wands and scrolls. The exception is always raids, but that's a different story, and I use consumables on my cleric as much as I do on my rogue and fighter in raids.

blakbyrd
08-31-2007, 11:59 AM
I am actually amazed at how long this thread has remained active.

The debate as to whether or not using wands/scrolls enmasse or very rarely is really hardly any debate at all. It's a matter playstyle. Doing one doesn't mean the other is wrong. It doesn't necessarily mean that the cleric is not playing properly. Some people prefer to play with wands/scrolls combined with mana and some prefer to only reserve such thing in dire situations. Either way can be played well. One is certainly more cost effective than they other but that is by definition at the choice of the user and how they wish to play.

As how I see it, I tend to play my cleric in about the middle of all this. I always end up using some wands/scrolls because to me they are a benefit, and I accept the cost of doing so, I do so on my own bank account as well.

As things are, clerics are perfectly capable in the game as it is, whether they use wands/scrolls or not. The only problem I ever see is very simple. Some people simply are not cut out for being able to properly manage a healing cleric...doing so well is difficult, and not for everyone. There are plenty of clerics around that just are not real good at it. Just because someone wants to be a doctor, doesn't mean they are actually capable of doing so or doing it well. That's not a cut down on anyone, being a cleric simply isnt for everyone, and I see no reason to try to alter the game in such manner in order to make it so that those who simply cant do something well are compensated for doing something poorly and in conjunction knocking the entire magic system out of whack.

Mercules
08-31-2007, 03:36 PM
AH HAH!

I figured it out.

Dingo says:

"I have played many MMOs, cut my teeth on CoH actually, before they instituted respec trials (and it was a NIGHTMARE when it first came out. Yikes.)"

This is a game where you regen Health(HPs) and Endurance(SPs) at a slow constant rate and can take powers and slot them to increase this rate. This is a game where some people take the most "healerish" class the Defender with Empathy/ as a powerset and set their main AoE healing power to auto-attack, set themselves on follow and then just target their single target heals on teammates that need more and push a button every so often. This is a game where you don't need a single healing power, but some people insist on bringing along a "Healer" because you can't do missions without them according to them.

This is where the unlimited SPs come from. This is where "I want a zone where I can solo and regen HPs/SPs." comes from. Perez Park anyone? :)

Cyr
08-31-2007, 05:05 PM
First off the premise of the post is incorrect. If you run with a competent group I have seen many cases when the clerics have alot of mana left after quest completions on elite with no resources used. If you run with gimps (yup I said it) then sure you could be throwing bad money after bad players. That is your choice though, I think that having a monetary (in game at least) reason for clerics to be selective about party choices (and other players as well since they really should chip in if they are draining the clerics reasources that bad) is a good thing. It might make people stop for a moment and think, hey I might be doing something dumb...like pulling out my greataxe of greater dragon bane on my wizard and attacking the black dragon....or running around naked in quests...or refusing to take any healers friends enhancments with your 550 hp warforged barbarian who never uses a shield and says AC doesn't matter so I don't have anything to buff it.

Changing basic game rules for 'uber' players or for 'gimpy' players is just plain a bad idea.

esoitl
09-03-2007, 10:15 PM
sorry for dredging up an old post but i have gone through some of Dingo's posts and laughed at most of them
i don't browse the forums a ton but i felt this one just had to be commented upon

OK - i play a capped cleric(no sorc or anything like that) and run around 1150sp which may or may not even be a lot for a cleric - not terribly sure
i am DMarked as well with a few enhances for it

now, i can run Cabal withour shrining casting GCommand and Destruction when need be and still using at most 10 wand charges and no scrolls
usually at the end fight i have enough sp left for healing, symbol of fear and a few balde barriers and often end up with 50-100 sp left over to boot

i know POP is pretty easy but covering resists, symbols in any room needed, DWard, destruction and GCommand on the way up i still only need that one shrine - often i do the rooms, shrine and end up with 800 or so sp at quest end
some groups are worse than others and depending on what rooms are done/what gets summoned at most i use a full wand and maybe one or two scrolls

the only reason i carry a bar of wands is because i never want to run out at any point
i've had the same 8 wands sitting in my inventory for months now and i have barely touched the 30 raise and heal scrolls i bought



if we give clerics free healing why don't we just give sorcs free fingers?


TOTALLY UNEEDED

Falco_Easts
09-03-2007, 10:29 PM
if we give clerics free healing why don't we just give sorcs free fingers?


This last bit had me laughing my ass off at work.

Arnya
09-03-2007, 10:49 PM
For obvious reasons, I'm not touching this one...

Arlith
09-04-2007, 07:48 AM
if we give clerics free healing why don't we just give sorcs free fingers?

When I am on my fighters, and if they had the emote, I would give Sorc's "free fingers" all the time. Stop PKing/FoDing a mob just as I walk up to it!

On my Sorc, I will wait for the fighter to just reach the mob then......

Stormanne
09-04-2007, 05:22 PM
If you want an offensive casting cleric, make one, just be sure to tell everyone in your party that you are not a battery for them. Let any party you group up with know right off hand that you are a divine caster, not a healer. I have done this and it works out well, once the party sees the advantage of it. Do I heal, when needed yes. Is it my main concern, no. A little communication goes along way in a party.,,,

Vhailor
09-05-2007, 07:19 AM
One of the changes to metamagic is that empowered healing will cost 10 sp so after level 3 it will be more effective that the current method and when casting thos 40 sp heals it will add 50% for only 10 more sp. I am not sure if empower or maximise work on healing but empower will cost 15 points and maximise 25 points and with enhancements you can make maximise cost only 16 spell points. this should help allot in making damage spells do more bang for the sp.

Mercules
09-05-2007, 08:08 AM
If you want an offensive casting cleric, make one, just be sure to tell everyone in your party that you are not a battery for them. Let any party you group up with know right off hand that you are a divine caster, not a healer. I have done this and it works out well, once the party sees the advantage of it. Do I heal, when needed yes. Is it my main concern, no. A little communication goes along way in a party.,,,

My friend just rolled up a BattleCleric and I have a WF Fighter X/Wizard 1 at the same level. They make a heck of a team as they self-buff and beat the **** out of everything in sight then pull out wands/spells to take care of anything that might be resistant to brute force.

Falco_Easts
09-05-2007, 08:40 PM
Can't get this image out of my head of every character taking one level of cleric for free healing. Sure, might only be CLW but after a big battle, just sit there spam healing yourself (for free) till you are back at full then onto the next fight.

Dingo123
09-05-2007, 09:25 PM
Can't get this image out of my head of every character taking one level of cleric for free healing. Sure, might only be CLW but after a big battle, just sit there spam healing yourself (for free) till you are back at full then onto the next fight.

They can already do that via wand for a level of Cleric.

I have a piddily 3 mil on my main, which hardly approaches most people. I could buy nearly one hundred and eighty eight thousand charges of CLW.

Falco_Easts
09-05-2007, 09:35 PM
They can already do that via wand for a level of Cleric.

I have a piddily 3 mil on my main, which hardly approaches most people. I could buy nearly one hundred and eighty eight thousand charges of CLW.

Seems you've just solved your problem about free healing then :)

BadDoc
09-06-2007, 07:37 AM
Okay I have to admit, for awhile i sucked down scrolls and wands like I had no sp at all..........Then I learned about mana Management, at one point or another, you have to either realize that your cleric is ****, and reroll, or that you have a serious problem with overhealing/going offensive when its not necessary. and the wands and scrolls I do buy, over time i doubt they compare to the amount of plat tanks spend on repairing weapons,
I am not an elitist, but come on. Clerics healing for free? how about a few vorpals and uber items free all around?!?!? well someone will have it all if turbine was ever to do something to ruin this game that bad....Some of us want a challenge, or at least the illusion of one. :)

Mercules
09-06-2007, 08:19 AM
They can already do that via wand for a level of Cleric.

I have a piddily 3 mil on my main, which hardly approaches most people. I could buy nearly one hundred and eighty eight thousand charges of CLW.

3 mill is NOT piddly. Dingo, it really sounds like you are bored and want something else. Really. If that is true, there is the door.

Hendrik
09-06-2007, 08:21 AM
3 mill is NOT piddly. Dingo, it really sounds like you are bored and want something else. Really. If that is true, there is the door.

QFH.

Shankd_Dream
09-09-2007, 04:21 AM
just KILL THIS THREAD

Drak
09-09-2007, 05:02 AM
Or they could perma ban dingo from the forums, so we dont have to see any of his insane drivel

Perceval418
09-11-2007, 03:30 PM
Nowhere close to signed. Clerics are already among the most powerful classes in the game when played to their potential. Clerics who are broke need to A) Learn to play better B) Learn to avoid terrible group mates or C) Learn to accept the consequences of their not learning the things listed in A and B.

Furthermore in most PUGS people give the cleric a wand or two, or give them the wands that drop in chests. I know i do. And alot of people carry healing pots to help alliviate the clerics burdens.

Aspenor
09-11-2007, 03:57 PM
/stomps on this thread

KILL IT!! KILL IT!!!

blakbyrd
09-11-2007, 04:00 PM
/stomps on this thread

KILL IT!! KILL IT!!!

I completely agree. But as we all probably know by now, cleric discussions do not end. The only apparent way to end one is to start another.

Lorien_the_First_One
09-11-2007, 04:28 PM
I completely agree. But as we all probably know by now, cleric discussions do not end. The only apparent way to end one is to start another.

The problem is cleric discussions come with a built in raise dead spell.

KALASHTAR
09-11-2007, 04:42 PM
Nowhere close to signed. Clerics are already among the most powerful classes in the game when played to their potential. Clerics who are broke need to A) Learn to play better B) Learn to avoid terrible group mates or C) Learn to accept the consequences of their not learning the things listed in A and B.

OK THIS HAS TO BE SAID, BAD PARTYS OFTEN BLAME THE CLERIC, BUT SOMETIMES IT REALLY IS THE PARTY, IF YOUR GETTING WIPED AT EVERY TURN, TRY DOING SOMETING A LITTLE LESS TESTING, MAYBEY GO ON HARD INSTEAD OF ELITE, ITS NOT ALWAYS THE CLERICS FAULT THAT YOUR BARBARIAN CAN'T KEEP FROM GETTING SQUISHED IN EVERY SINGLE BATTLE, ITS THE REST OF THE CHARECTER'S RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE THE CLERIC LESS TASKED SOMETIMES, BUT PERSONALLY i WILL NOT BAIL ON A GROUP (UNLESS GAME BOOTS ME, WHICH HAPPENS SOMETIMES) EVEN IF i FIND OUT THAT THE GROUP IS A BUNCH OF TARDS WHO REALLY CAN'T FIGHT EVEN SO MUCH AS A KOBALD WITHOUT GOING THRU 400 OF THE CLERICS MANA POINTS (DON'T LAUGH TOO HARD, I'VE SEEN IT)

Grizzt14
09-11-2007, 04:57 PM
Ok guys seriously, if the cleric needs extra scrolls soo much that he/she complains about money either A. they spend to much sp on meta feats or B. the party is reckless and cant heal themselves with pots or C. The cleric can't manage the sp bar well. thats just what it comes down too

Takllin
09-11-2007, 05:02 PM
I cant actually believe this was posted, what were you thinking!! You know you could maybe not give so many buffs, that saves sp, I have wands that I use rarely ever use, I always have alot of elixirs on hand in case if we need to go into a big fight and im low on sp, I have a lvl 6 battlcleric and i rarely ever use wands. I took one level of fighter so my sp is alot lower than most level 6 clerics. I always have 3 or 4 CMW, 1 CLW and occasionaly a CSW wand when i get around to buying one. You need to invest in other ways to get sp like someone said before, take a level, of sorc to get alot more sp. I am low on money alot with many low level toons and I never complain about no money.

/never ever signed, this would ruin the intergrity of the game

redslayer
09-11-2007, 07:34 PM
So sor need more points and cleric didnt get much boast. For those clerics that only carry 30 heal scrolls I know you never did reaver or titan on elite. As good as some the groups I have been in sometimes just doesnt go right. I have been in groups that use 100 heal scrolls not usaly but has happened,and to say you only have 3 wands in a monthyou must not play much. I do not know about free but healing spells shoud use less sp make it a feat or something.

JelloMold
09-11-2007, 08:05 PM
OK THIS HAS TO BE SAID, BAD PARTYS OFTEN BLAME THE CLERIC, BUT SOMETIMES IT REALLY IS THE PARTY, IF YOUR GETTING WIPED AT EVERY TURN, TRY DOING SOMETING A LITTLE LESS TESTING, MAYBEY GO ON HARD INSTEAD OF ELITE, ITS NOT ALWAYS THE CLERICS FAULT THAT YOUR BARBARIAN CAN'T KEEP FROM GETTING SQUISHED IN EVERY SINGLE BATTLE, ITS THE REST OF THE CHARECTER'S RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE THE CLERIC LESS TASKED SOMETIMES, BUT PERSONALLY i WILL NOT BAIL ON A GROUP (UNLESS GAME BOOTS ME, WHICH HAPPENS SOMETIMES) EVEN IF i FIND OUT THAT THE GROUP IS A BUNCH OF TARDS WHO REALLY CAN'T FIGHT EVEN SO MUCH AS A KOBALD WITHOUT GOING THRU 400 OF THE CLERICS MANA POINTS (DON'T LAUGH TOO HARD, I'VE SEEN IT)

Ok, Ok, just stop shouting.

Seriously folks, who ressurected this tired old thread? Worse still, why have the latest posters said the same thing that was said over the last 100 pages or so?

Tenkari_Rozahas
09-11-2007, 08:09 PM
Oo this threads still alive? i think we all got our points across.

*casts greater patience summoning and then casts empowered/heightened thread destruction.*

Symar-FangofLloth
09-11-2007, 08:11 PM
Oo this threads still alive? i think we all got our points across.

*casts greater patience summoning and then casts empowered/heightened thread destruction.*

*Smacks Tenkari* Get back to our roleplaying, and let this thread die.

sammyhextall
09-11-2007, 08:23 PM
Howdy

I know lots of clerics who do nothing but heal. the problem is people want to be BattleClerics, I am guessing this is the real reason behind this. Cause no one would randomly blurt out give clerics more sp Or make Healing Free, then say they dont have one.
Nah this stinks of wanting to be a battlecleric and finding out thats not as easy as he thought.

First off I have tons of cleric friends, They range in all levels. One of the younger (IE lower level) and becomeing pretty popular in my server is name is Deanna. She is a great healer, who does keep everyone healed fully. Not 80%. cause sometimes you can get surrounded and bang dead. Yeah she uses wands and heals. Only time she will cast command or some other spell to help out a party who has to much aggro. I have never heard her complain about anything in being a cleric... only that the other players running off then crying when they died. but for the most part she keeps enough Sp to even buff people before she shrines.
She dont ask for money. she dont like taking it, but from the few times I grouped with her and from hearing from other friends. they want her to get more wands and stuff cause she does a great job healing. And if she is reading this Bet she is blushing right now ^^

As for wanting more SP there are enhancements you can take, Feat, (I believe) Armor, Items, etc etc to raise SP. They have wands, scrolls to help healing (though yeah they are back up)
I know some clerics who dont care about funds, Not that they are rich they rather use 20 wands if it keeps everyone alive.

If you want to be a BattleCleric, Then Be a Pally, I have dumped a healer from a group once or twice for lack of healing expect themself. Then when they say why you dismiss me. I said you are not doing what your class is for. He says I am a battle cleric I attack. I say yeah well good luck with that. *adds to DGWL "Don't Group With List"*
Anyway this all just sounds like you want higher SP so you can be a battle cleric.
A cleric is like a Field Medic. Yeah they might have a gun but their main job should be protection and healing of the party. Not using the Mini gun.

It's fine if you want to make a battlecleric. But at least tell your group that when you join, The chance of you healing them is slim and none. less Pwipes that way, and us looking at the cleric going what happen.

Heck I even had one cleric say after two warriors died... "Sorry Not my problem"

To finish, the people that say I only use 1/2 sp per quest cause I am super cleric. Or I dont use stinking wands or scrolls. Even better I only use 1/2 a wand per month blah blah yeah yeah. that sounds good and all and *pats you on the back* Congrats if you can do that.
You can use half per Rest shrine. etc. It's all on how you build your cleric.

Done Ranting now
Game on!

Aesop
09-11-2007, 08:42 PM
I can't believe this thread hasn't died yet... come on folks its got scavengers all around it let it go...


Can I get a Sorceror over here to cast FoD on this puppy

Aesop

Razore
09-12-2007, 12:02 AM
I play a cleric and have been playing clerics from beta. Multiple builds. Ive played the endgame and noob game from every aspect of a cleric. Clerics is all i do . Id say reliance on scrolls and wands are more then they should be. Potentialy clerics dont have enough raw healing power to keep up with the hit dice that mellees have and the raw dps of mobs in this game. If not a mana concern sometimes its simply a timer concern. You JUST CANT rely 100% on casting spells and not scrolls/wands. What i would like to see is Scrolls and wands being removed as a purchaseable item in testing.. Too see how effective people are at healing without them.

In two examples. Gianthold tor, with a guild group or a VERY well organised pug, i can run the entire quest spending a few wand charges and maybe 5 heal scrolls. Being wasteful even. But as everyone knows you cant ALWAYS have a top notch guild group for this quest. With a poorly organised group i can spend charges from 2 or 3 wands easily and maybe 2 dozen heal scrolls just trying to keep up with the hp loss of the group.

Elitists say what you will. But you cant always rely on your group being geared and experianced. Its just not feasable in this game. And i dont buy a word that any guy says after he says. My cleric dosnt need to use scrolls or wands in a quest in this game. You A have not played at the high end for long. OR B have been spoiled by well geared toons in your regular groups.


My petition~ Remove readily availible divine scrolls and wands.

GlassCannon
09-12-2007, 03:39 AM
I play a cleric and have been playing clerics from beta. Multiple builds. Ive played the endgame and noob game from every aspect of a cleric. Clerics is all i do . Id say reliance on scrolls and wands are more then they should be. Potentialy clerics dont have enough raw healing power to keep up with the hit dice that mellees have and the raw dps of mobs in this game. If not a mana concern sometimes its simply a timer concern. You JUST CANT rely 100% on casting spells and not scrolls/wands. What i would like to see is Scrolls and wands being removed as a purchaseable item in testing.. Too see how effective people are at healing without them.

In two examples. Gianthold tor, with a guild group or a VERY well organised pug, i can run the entire quest spending a few wand charges and maybe 5 heal scrolls. Being wasteful even. But as everyone knows you cant ALWAYS have a top notch guild group for this quest. With a poorly organised group i can spend charges from 2 or 3 wands easily and maybe 2 dozen heal scrolls just trying to keep up with the hp loss of the group.

Elitists say what you will. But you cant always rely on your group being geared and experianced. Its just not feasable in this game. And i dont buy a word that any guy says after he says. My cleric dosnt need to use scrolls or wands in a quest in this game. You A have not played at the high end for long. OR B have been spoiled by well geared toons in your regular groups.


My petition~ Remove readily availible divine scrolls and wands.

This would make Risia quite interesting.

I'd say give it a go, for at least a month, and drop 5x xp and +2 to loot for the duration.

Mercules
09-12-2007, 07:56 AM
I do not know about free but healing spells shoud use less sp make it a feat or something.

You mean like Empower Healing Spell and then taking the enhancements to reduce the cost so you end up with 150% healing for 115% of the cost? You mean other enhancements like Devotion to boost the amount of healing you get from one cast giving you more like 200% of the healing(with an item as well) for 115% of the cost?

DDO already makes casting a Cure spell twice as effective as in PnP D&D.