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Dingo123
08-25-2007, 05:24 AM
I've been mulling about this... and I have to say... I'm concerned.

What will Sorcerors be like at level 20?

Currently... Sorcerors can kill with a word, charm constantly, raise the dead, heal like mad, and lob damage spells left and right, and can come equipped with more than a few rather useful buffs.

I've seen Sorcs cure blindness, disease, paralysis. I've seen Sorcs raise the dead. I've seen Sorcs wand heal very very well... and in some ways, I've seen Sorcs... well... Tank.

Yeah, Sorcs can... in a backhanded way, tank.

When a Sorceror charms five guys... that's what he's doing. He's tanking.

He's keeping the aggro off the team. Sure, it can be considered crowd control, but isn't tanking just another form thereof?


So, one must ask... where does it end? The immense power of the Sorceror...


At level 20 a Sorceror will be able to (most likely, if the Devs give them the iconic spell) walk into a room and kill everything in it with a single spell. What's worse they will be able to fire this spell off repetitively. A level 9 spell will only cost 50 sp. How much SP will a level 20 Sorc have? A few thousand? Most likely.


What's going to happen when Sorcs ascend to virtual godhood at level 20?

Lillitheris
08-25-2007, 06:16 AM
I foresee a large increase in monster immunities. Deathblock et cetera. Bye-bye FoD and PK.

Harbinder
08-25-2007, 06:26 AM
Don't be skeered.

Locathus
08-25-2007, 06:50 AM
Someone mentioned immunities above, which I think is likely. As I've posted before in these forums, some of this could also be resolved by mobs pre-buffing and doing it somewhat randomly and intelligently.

For example, having all of the Giants in Gianthold Tor immune to a large number of spells seems kind of lame. But, what if 1 in 4 of them had Deathblock on, another one had FoM, and a couple of them kept up other buffs? Maybe a Fear Immunity spell for PK could be added (or just have them cast GH). To me, it would enhance the difficulty of the missions without feeling cheap. And if done correctly it could preferentially affect some classes more than others (i.e., Deathward isn't going to prevent the barb with the big sword). If used in the right places it could also make some classes more useful in quests where they don't get a lot of invites.

I'm not sure how likely this is, but I don't think it would be ridiculous to code.

.

Aesop
08-25-2007, 08:45 AM
Honestly I wish that Mobs would cast Defensive Spells more often and less often were just given immunities... that way we could dispel them and use tactics as opposed to just slamming our heads into them.


Aesop

wemery73
08-25-2007, 08:46 AM
Honestly I wish that Mobs would cast Defensive Spells more often and less often were just given immunities... that way we could dispel them and use tactics as opposed to just slamming our heads into them.


Aesop

that would be alot better:D

Raithe
08-25-2007, 09:31 AM
D&D is not balanced for the individual. It is balanced towards the group, and the central character of that group is the magic-user. Even at early levels, the rest of the characters in the party should be molding their tactics around the spells in the caster's arsenal. It's the nature of the game.

The problem with this standard D&D concept in DDO is that Turbine has corrupted the game, making it more about individual achievement and item acquisition than about anything else. Even amongst guild groups, the majority of the game seems to be comparing kill counts and uber items.

The funny thing is, a sorceror hardly needs a single item to be superiorly uber over most other characters, especially nonmagical melee. So the facade of this game is actually a complete hoax.

moorewr
08-25-2007, 09:46 AM
Im afraid of americans
Im afraid of the world
Im afraid I cant help it
Im afraid I cant
Johnnys in america

Johnny wants a brain, johnny wants to
Suck on a coke
Johnny wants a woman, johnny wants
To think of a joke
Johnnys in america

Im afraid of americans
Im afraid of the world
Im afraid I cant help it
Im afraid I cant
Johnnys in america


Actually, by 20th level everything will have insane saves, we'll have red-names all over the place... we'll be slaughtering armies of mobs with power word kill while the bosses kill us like sheep...

Cooooool... can't wait. I hope we get extra-planar quest chains.. I can dream...

hannika
08-25-2007, 09:58 AM
arcane casters are *supposed* to be sick. especially at high levels, that's when they come into their own. it's how it works.

Swordalot
08-25-2007, 10:35 AM
Wierd.
Wail of the Banshee.
Horrid Wilting.
Mass Hold Monster.


That's all I have to say.

Symar-FangofLloth
08-25-2007, 10:38 AM
arcane casters are *supposed* to be sick. especially at high levels, that's when they come into their own. it's how it works.

Sounds like 4th Edition is going away from this, giving melee-ers "spells", ala Tome of Battle, instead of multiple attacks, and balance between classes will be better maintained. Although casters will still be awesome, heh.

Artemis
08-25-2007, 12:06 PM
at level 20, sorcs and wizards are supposed to be terribly powerful creatures.

someone said it a while ago. in a PnP setting, 3 20th level wizards/sorcs. could probably go up against an army of people and WIN.

even in forgotten realms, etc novels, a high level magic user is feared.

Shrazkil
08-25-2007, 12:10 PM
I've been mulling about this... and I have to say... I'm concerned.

What will Sorcerors be like at level 20?

Currently... Sorcerors can kill with a word, charm constantly, raise the dead, heal like mad, and lob damage spells left and right, and can come equipped with more than a few rather useful buffs.

I've seen Sorcs cure blindness, disease, paralysis. I've seen Sorcs raise the dead. I've seen Sorcs wand heal very very well... and in some ways, I've seen Sorcs... well... Tank.

Yeah, Sorcs can... in a backhanded way, tank.

When a Sorceror charms five guys... that's what he's doing. He's tanking.

He's keeping the aggro off the team. Sure, it can be considered crowd control, but isn't tanking just another form thereof?


So, one must ask... where does it end? The immense power of the Sorceror...


At level 20 a Sorceror will be able to (most likely, if the Devs give them the iconic spell) walk into a room and kill everything in it with a single spell. What's worse they will be able to fire this spell off repetitively. A level 9 spell will only cost 50 sp. How much SP will a level 20 Sorc have? A few thousand? Most likely.


What's going to happen when Sorcs ascend to virtual godhood at level 20?


Fear not...just remember...the enemy will be level 25 sorcerers :)

valreesio
08-25-2007, 12:30 PM
at level 20, sorcs and wizards are supposed to be terribly powerful creatures.

someone said it a while ago. in a PnP setting, 3 20th level wizards/sorcs. could probably go up against an army of people and WIN.

even in forgotten realms, etc novels, a high level magic user is feared.

In PnP, if you are lucky enough to have your wizard or sorc live to level 20, you will be able to handle a lot of things on your own. But, they are still weak in many areas. This may not translate to DDO. A thief takes a wizards spell book and he is not so powerful anymore. Run out of material components, your done. One stat draining spell, buh bye. These characters are still balanced because they are inherently weak without their magic. They cannot fight hand to hand with any other class and win without luck (i.e. no magic or buffs).

That being said, here in DDO, we are so magic item soaked that they will be a little unbalanced at 20th level. But, the Dev's will find a way to overcome this.

Dingo123
08-25-2007, 02:29 PM
Will Sorcerors become what Clerics are today? Demanded in every party?

moorewr
08-25-2007, 03:01 PM
Will Sorcerors become what Clerics are today? Demanded in every party?

If they do it right - the end-game stuff then will require extra-planar travel, so you'll have to have high-level clickies or arcanes along just to get to quest areas (Gate, etc).

Dol Quor here we come.

We wont have miracles or wishes.. Time Stop would be a sort of super-haste/slow... but weird, wail of the banshee, and mass hold monster look pretty darn cool.

PS: I'd like fly to show up as a high level spell and a high-level clickie -- even as a short duration spell. Sure, that doesn't follow PnP, but we can all see it has more impact on this game than it would have on PnP.

dameron
08-25-2007, 04:08 PM
If they do it right - the end-game stuff then will require extra-planar travel, so you'll have to have high-level clickies or arcanes along just to get to quest areas (Gate, etc).


"Gate" is also a 9th level Cleric spell.

jaitee
08-25-2007, 04:51 PM
arcane casters are *supposed* to be sick. especially at high levels, that's when they come into their own. it's how it works.

correct, instead of giving them immunties, how about they cast it on themselves like we do, after all they dont have any sps, they have unlimited

as my sorc stands now, she can raise dead, restore neg lvls, use the heal scrolls, tank mobs, i am all that is needed to complete a task, not to belittle the rest of the classes, but anyone can do what my sorc can do, if you spec them for that

Ironik
08-25-2007, 04:56 PM
Yeah, it'll be insane. I can't wait.

moorewr
08-25-2007, 06:40 PM
"Gate" is also a 9th level Cleric spell.

Yes, Ma'am.

moorewr
08-25-2007, 06:40 PM
I'd really REALLY like them to go the high save buffed route with red names instead of blanket immunities. Don't want me to trip an end-boss? Great, give him a high save, so I need the whole tactics chain and a monster strength to have a decent shot at it. Ditto with dispelling immunities...

End-bosses to come will likely be extra-planar, how about just barely giving that uber caster with spell foci and a huge DC a shot at a 20 to banish/dismiss them? Oh, what a rush it would be...

Edit: just think if we could all go visit Xoriat!


correct, instead of giving them immunties, how about they cast it on themselves like we do, after all they dont have any sps, they have unlimited

as my sorc stands now, she can raise dead, restore neg lvls, use the heal scrolls, tank mobs, i am all that is needed to complete a task, not to belittle the rest of the classes, but anyone can do what my sorc can do, if you spec them for that

XFracture
08-25-2007, 09:59 PM
You shouldn't be scared of Sorcerors. What you should be scared of is the **** that Turbine puts in to counter balance them. THAT'S what you should be sweating over.

jaitee
08-26-2007, 02:39 AM
correct, instead of giving them immunties, how about they cast it on themselves like we do, after all they dont have any sps, they have unlimited

as my sorc stands now, she can raise dead, restore neg lvls, use the heal scrolls, tank mobs, i am all that is needed to complete a task, not to belittle the rest of the classes, but anyone can do what my sorc can do, if you spec them for that

well you know i was thinking, we shouldnt be scared, wizards atm have 3 lvl 7 spells compared to 1 lvl 7 spell, wizards are wayy more scarier

Dingo123
08-26-2007, 03:37 AM
well you know i was thinking, we shouldnt be scared, wizards atm have 3 lvl 7 spells compared to 1 lvl 7 spell, wizards are wayy more scarier


Wizards can't raise the dead nearly as proficciently as a Sorc can. Nor can they wand heal themselves and others... among other things.

Further... despite having more high end slots, the Sorcs ability to cast them over and over and over and over again is what breaks the bank. You only need so many different ways to kill something.

Alcamez
08-26-2007, 04:18 AM
I have one word
Implosion

Evocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#evocation)

Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#level):Clr 9 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm#ninthLevelClericSpells), Destruction 9 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#destructionDomain)Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components):V, SCasting Time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime):1 standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions)Range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range):Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)Targets (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets):One corporeal creature/roundDuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration):Concentration (up to 4 rounds)Saving Throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow):Fortitude negatesSpell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spellResistance):Yes
You create a destructive resonance in a corporeal creature’s body. For each round you concentrate, you cause one creature to collapse in on itself, killing it. (This effect, being instantaneous, cannot be dispelled.)
You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.
Implosion has no effect on creatures in gaseous form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gaseousForm) or on incorporeal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality) creatures.


CLERICS WILL RULE STORMREACH!!!!!

Dragonhyde
08-26-2007, 04:40 AM
End-bosses to come will likely be extra-planar, how about just barely giving that uber caster with spell foci and a huge DC a shot at a 20 to banish/dismiss them? Oh, what a rush it would be...

Edit: just think if we could all go visit Xoriat! So if you are visiting Xoriat, would you be able to banish creatures from there ? And would they be able to banish you?:D

Mhykke
08-26-2007, 07:22 AM
Please.

Like Wizards are going to be that much different than sorcs. They'll have thousands of SP also, and be able to cast all the powerful spells that exist.

Trying to say one will be scarier than the other is ridiculous.

BLAKROC
08-26-2007, 07:26 AM
I've been mulling about this... and I have to say... I'm concerned.

What will Sorcerors be like at level 20?

Currently... Sorcerors can kill with a word, charm constantly, raise the dead, heal like mad, and lob damage spells left and right, and can come equipped with more than a few rather useful buffs.

I've seen Sorcs cure blindness, disease, paralysis. I've seen Sorcs raise the dead. I've seen Sorcs wand heal very very well... and in some ways, I've seen Sorcs... well... Tank.

Yeah, Sorcs can... in a backhanded way, tank.

When a Sorceror charms five guys... that's what he's doing. He's tanking.

He's keeping the aggro off the team. Sure, it can be considered crowd control, but isn't tanking just another form thereof?


So, one must ask... where does it end? The immense power of the Sorceror...


At level 20 a Sorceror will be able to (most likely, if the Devs give them the iconic spell) walk into a room and kill everything in it with a single spell. What's worse they will be able to fire this spell off repetitively. A level 9 spell will only cost 50 sp. How much SP will a level 20 Sorc have? A few thousand? Most likely.


What's going to happen when Sorcs ascend to virtual godhood at level 20?


interesting thought, but where were you complaints about sorcs at lower levels? when they have few hp and sp and not many spells slots? wow a toon that can kill with out mellee, and can umd what is wrong with that? IMO nothing.

Dingo123
08-26-2007, 07:35 AM
No, they are not identical. A Sorceror will very much hold onto the ridiculously nice benefit of fast casting and reduced cooldowns.

A Sorcerors Spells Per Second and DPS is superior to that of a Wizards. A Sorceror can cast suggestion, for example, far more frequently in a given timespan than a Wizard.

However, all this ignores perhaps the single most important thing about a Sorc outside of their spellcasting.

UMD. A sorceror's UMD is through the roof, enabling that Font of Destructive energy access to some of the most beneficial clerical spells and wands in the game.


Think on it, a great deal of what high level Clerics do is cast heal from a Scroll....

How long until a Sorceror can reliably cast "Heal" endlessly? Something almost certainly no Wizard could do.

Mhykke
08-26-2007, 07:42 AM
No, they are not identical. A Sorceror will very much hold onto the ridiculously nice benefit of fast casting and reduced cooldowns.

A Sorcerors Spells Per Second and DPS is superior to that of a Wizards. A Sorceror can cast suggestion, for example, far more frequently in a given timespan than a Wizard.

However, all this ignores perhaps the single most important thing about a Sorc outside of their spellcasting.

UMD. A sorceror's UMD is through the roof, enabling that Font of Destructive energy access to some of the most beneficial clerical spells and wands in the game.


Think on it, a great deal of what high level Clerics do is cast heal from a Scroll....

How long until a Sorceror can reliably cast "Heal" endlessly? Something almost certainly no Wizard could do.


Actually,
For the purposes of this discussion, they're exactly identical. Wizards will have the entire arsenal of 8th and 9th lvl spells. Wizards can cycle their spell lvls, not just sit around waiting for their 9th lvl timer to refresh. They're just as "scary."

And the UMD point is out there. You want UMD on your character? Give him a decent Cha (don't make cha a dump stat if UMD makes people so "scary"), take a feat, get an item, maybe splash a rogue. Singling out sorcerers for high UMD is a ridiculous point. Same as pointing out that wizards have an absurd number of skill points to spend b/c of INT. I'm sorry, but classes get advantages b/c of their stats. Cha is the Sorc's stat, and UMD is based off of Cha. Deal w/ it.
Should we be so upset that bard's can get their UMD's much, much higher than anyone's? Or what about Rogues, last I checked, UMD was a rogue class skill, and most rogues I know have a higher UMD than my 34 cha sorc.

If UMD makes classes "scary", then so many people wouldn't be using Cha as a dump stat. Get over it. This is a dumb topic.

Dingo123
08-26-2007, 08:05 AM
Actually,
For the purposes of this discussion, they're exactly identical. Wizards will have the entire arsenal of 8th and 9th lvl spells. Wizards can cycle their spell lvls, not just sit around waiting for their 9th lvl timer to refresh. They're just as "scary."

And the UMD point is out there. You want UMD on your character? Give him a decent Cha (don't make cha a dump stat if UMD makes people so "scary"), take a feat, get an item, maybe splash a rogue. Singling out sorcerers for high UMD is a ridiculous point. Same as pointing out that wizards have an absurd number of skill points to spend b/c of INT. I'm sorry, but classes get advantages b/c of their stats. Cha is the Sorc's stat, and UMD is based off of Cha. Deal w/ it.
Should we be so upset that bard's can get their UMD's much, much higher than anyone's? Or what about Rogues, last I checked, UMD was a rogue class skill, and most rogues I know have a higher UMD than my 34 cha sorc.

If UMD makes classes "scary", then so many people wouldn't be using Cha as a dump stat. Get over it. This is a dumb topic.

You know a lot of Bards that can spam finger of death with a DC over 30 and then turn around and raise the dead? Any Rogues?

Sure, a Wizard can.... but the Wizard will never touch the Sorcs charisma gain without severely sacrificing for it. A Sorc can, without too much effort get a +11 to UMD from Charisma boost alone.

Nor will the Wizard be able to spam FoD like a Sorc can.


Wizards, lategame, are more about buffing, with a secondary in damage and/or controlling.

Sorcs, lategame, are offense.

Dingo123
08-26-2007, 08:10 AM
A human Sorc, with rabbit gloves, greater heroism, and the golden cartouche (none of this terribly difficult to find gear), and 32 Charisma, and 8.5 from skill investment is looking, at level 14 at 11+8+1+4+3... 27 UMD. 13 more points and that Sorc can cast heal at will. From Skill investment alone, at level 20 that Sorc using even the above outdated equipment, will be able to cast Heal 50% of the time.

jaitee
08-26-2007, 12:29 PM
really though whats the point of this thread another sorc vs wiz thread?

getting a decent cha should be no problem i know wizards now that can raise dead at will, and FoD, some can even heal

this is kind of like saying a pally has too much saves, they will be too strong............how will they be at lvl 20........

ebt-dnd
08-26-2007, 12:51 PM
So if you are visiting Xoriat, would you be able to banish creatures from there ? And would they be able to banish you?:D

I'd say you wouldn't be able to banish them, and they would be able to banish you. Now, the real question. If they banish you, where do you appear? Is there a relationship in space between the dimensions, so you would appear in the middle of the ocean or in the middle of a mountain somewhere? That wouldn't be too fun...

Lifespawn
08-26-2007, 01:59 PM
a wiz can take 1 lvl of rogue and do the rogues job and the wizards job and have a better umd than a sorc because it wouldn't be cross class.
Note i don't have a wiz i love my sorc but just saying wiz can do more for a party overall than a sorc if built for it.

Mhykke
08-26-2007, 02:03 PM
You know a lot of Bards that can spam finger of death with a DC over 30 and then turn around and raise the dead? Any Rogues?

Sure, a Wizard can.... but the Wizard will never touch the Sorcs charisma gain without severely sacrificing for it. A Sorc can, without too much effort get a +11 to UMD from Charisma boost alone.

Nor will the Wizard be able to spam FoD like a Sorc can.


Wizards, lategame, are more about buffing, with a secondary in damage and/or controlling.

Sorcs, lategame, are offense.


Well then if you think wizards are just buffers, you don't understand the class all that much.

Wizards, with all their feats, can take the spell focus feats, the spell pen feats, etc. etc, without having to give up too much. A wiz can spec for an instakill build very easily, while not giving up too much in the way of feats. If a sorc wanted to spec in this fashion, he wouldn't be able to afford much else.

Again, one is no more "scarier" than the other.

And, I still find this whole "UMD is scary" thing laughable. One more time. If UMD was so "scary" as you suggest, everybody would pump cha and shoot for it. Heck, one could just have a number of rings of the ancestors if they wanted to raise dead. Nothing special about sorc's being able to raise dead.

Dingo123
08-26-2007, 02:18 PM
a wiz can take 1 lvl of rogue and do the rogues job and the wizards job and have a better umd than a sorc because it wouldn't be cross class.
Note i don't have a wiz i love my sorc but just saying wiz can do more for a party overall than a sorc if built for it.

A Wizard would have to full on take a level in another CLASS in order to match or beat a Sorcs natural abilities.

Mhykke
08-26-2007, 02:25 PM
A Wizard would have to full on take a level in another CLASS in order to match or beat a Sorcs natural abilities.

Or as in my post, stay pure, spec for instakill, not give up as much as the sorc, and be a complete bad**s.

Or you can keep sitting here trying to suggest how sorcs alone are big bad and scary.

Lifespawn
08-26-2007, 03:08 PM
not just beat but far surpass the only thing they'd have less was sp's and longer cooldowns.

Same metamagics but wiz get them free so free feats for other things like focus or spell pen saves another spot in the party if all u need is a trap buster can Outdo a sorc in umd as it's not cross class and with the free feats has the ability to hit more often on spells while a sorc might not beat a spell pen 2-3 times a wiz specced in it would be almost guarenteed.

Dingo123
08-26-2007, 03:20 PM
not just beat but far surpass the only thing they'd have less was sp's and longer cooldowns.

Same metamagics but wiz get them free so free feats for other things like focus or spell pen saves another spot in the party if all u need is a trap buster can Outdo a sorc in umd as it's not cross class and with the free feats has the ability to hit more often on spells while a sorc might not beat a spell pen 2-3 times a wiz specced in it would be almost guarenteed.


A Sorc can become insta death necromancy killer easy.

All you need is heighten spell, spell penetrations, and Spell Foci (Focuses?)

You don't need much else.

People think the increased spell points and the far far faster casting rate isn't that noticable... but yes... yes it is. A sorceror can knock out far more FoDs in a given time period than a Wizard, and they can do so more frequently during an adventure.

Aspenor
08-26-2007, 03:22 PM
A Wizard would have to full on take a level in another CLASS in order to match or beat a Sorcs natural abilities.

A wizard that knows what he's doing is a force to be reckoned with, even more than a sorceror. Self healing? Don't need it. I don't need healing, period. A few potions is more than enough. SP? Know how to manage it, not a problem.

Dingo123
08-26-2007, 03:49 PM
A wizard that knows what he's doing is a force to be reckoned with, even more than a sorceror. Self healing? Don't need it. I don't need healing, period. A few potions is more than enough. SP? Know how to manage it, not a problem.

Great, you can take care of yourself.

Can you rez the Cleric?

Mhykke
08-26-2007, 04:27 PM
Great, you can take care of yourself.

Can you rez the Cleric?


Pffff, any chump w/ a rez ring can do that. Not that "scary". My 6 cha barbarian can do it.

Mhykke
08-26-2007, 04:34 PM
A Sorc can become insta death necromancy killer easy.

All you need is heighten spell, spell penetrations, and Spell Foci (Focuses?)

You don't need much else.




Nobody said they couldn't be instakill. What I said, and you've ignored, is that they'd be giving up a lot. The spell pen feats, heighten, and a spell focus or two doesn't really leave you much room to play with as a sorc, does it? What will that uber instakill sorc do on boss mobs compared to the wiz who has the same instakill setup, and enough left over to improve his damage output?

I'm sorry, but you're picking one advantage a sorc has, and you're making it seem like your opinion is fact that this advantage makes him superior. You're completely ignoring certain aspects that make wizards superior in some regards. They're both pretty balanced, and, at lvl 20, equally "scary."

Dingo123
08-26-2007, 06:10 PM
Nobody said they couldn't be instakill. What I said, and you've ignored, is that they'd be giving up a lot. The spell pen feats, heighten, and a spell focus or two doesn't really leave you much room to play with as a sorc, does it? What will that uber instakill sorc do on boss mobs compared to the wiz who has the same instakill setup, and enough left over to improve his damage output?

I'm sorry, but you're picking one advantage a sorc has, and you're making it seem like your opinion is fact that this advantage makes him superior. You're completely ignoring certain aspects that make wizards superior in some regards. They're both pretty balanced, and, at lvl 20, equally "scary."


That Instakill Sorc has plenty of options. They're not balanced. Sorc>Wiz. I'm sorry. They might by level 20 get a minor in enchantment. Turn all that bosses minions against him... or they may minor in evocation... and THAT would be frightening. Could you imagine a Sorc spamming Meteor Swarm?

Mhykke
08-26-2007, 06:13 PM
That Instakill Sorc has plenty of options. They're not balanced. Sorc>Wiz. I'm sorry. They might by level 20 get a minor in enchantment. Turn all that bosses minions against him... or they may minor in evocation... and THAT would be frightening. Could you imagine a Sorc spamming Meteor Swarm?

Way to not respond to any points.

I'm sorry, you haven't proved your case that sorc>wiz. Just b/c you repeat it over and over doesn't make it true.

Others and myself have shown you how it's not true, and you don't respond other than to reassert your (incorrect) point.

boldarblood
08-26-2007, 06:14 PM
Doesnt seem like many agree with you. It seems you have shortsighted yourself into concentrating on one aspect of the class and ignore all else. Both are equally as powerful and I welcome either into any quest I do. Its the player not the class that makes a character good.

Mhykke
08-26-2007, 06:18 PM
Its the player not the class that makes a character good.


Amen to that.
That's something I didn't even mention. Any class could be "scary" or not, depending on how good the player behind the class is.

Wiz and Sorc and pretty equal. Each has their strong points. Focusing on UMD as a game breaking feature of the sorc is ridiculous on its face.

Dingo123
08-26-2007, 06:23 PM
Doesnt seem like many agree with you. It seems you have shortsighted yourself into concentrating on one aspect of the class and ignore all else. Both are equally as powerful and I welcome either into any quest I do. Its the player not the class that makes a character good.


You'll see.

Xyfiel
08-26-2007, 06:43 PM
Sorcs are da suck vs my halfling pal/barb throwing build I got planned out.

Muwhaha.

Seriously though, every class is scary at level 20. Hybrids less so, but very versatile.
Clerics will be able to res 2 people and mass heal within 5 seconds.
Paladins/monks have insane defense
Barbs can have 600+hps.
barbs/rogues have high dps.
Bards still have the best CC, even compared to a spamming enchanter.
Druids can have armies.
Rangers have great survivability.

If your wizard needs to res, you wasn't doing a great job in the first place.

bobbryan2
08-26-2007, 07:53 PM
I'm afraid of Sorcerers
I'm afraid of the world
I'm afraid I can't help it
I'm afraid I can't

God is a Sorcerer
God is a Sorcerer

Dingo123
08-26-2007, 08:02 PM
God is a Sorcerer
God is a Sorcerer

QFT

Paragon
08-26-2007, 08:06 PM
Ya know, maybe, just maybe, at level 20 it won't be all about the fighters/barbs/rangers/paladins running in and beating the **** out of the mobs any more. Maybe the casters will become powerful....scary thought.:eek:

IMO, casters have languished at the bottom of the stack for far too long. They should be powerful at the high levels. Right now its kinda scary what a barbarian with the SoS can do, running in, raging, and annhililating huge groups of mobs without so much as a second thought.

I would say that the barbarians right now with 46 str and 48 con while raging, over 600 hps and completely insane dps are just as scary as the sorcs of the future with 2000+ sp of nuking, killing, and charming at their disposal.

Guildmaster_Kadish
08-26-2007, 08:19 PM
Right now its kinda scary what a barbarian with the SoS can do, running in, raging, and annhililating huge groups of mobs without so much as a second thought.

I would say that the barbarians right now with 46 str and 48 con while raging, over 600 hps and completely insane dps are just as scary as the sorcs of the future with 2000+ sp of nuking, killing, and charming at their disposal.

QFT.

moorewr
08-26-2007, 08:37 PM
:)


I'm afraid of Sorcerers
I'm afraid of the world
I'm afraid I can't help it
I'm afraid I can't

God is a Sorcerer
God is a Sorcerer

The_Cataclysm
08-26-2007, 08:41 PM
I'm afraid of Sorcerers
I'm afraid of the world
I'm afraid I can't help it
I'm afraid I can't

God is a Sorcerer
God is a Sorcerer

If you say so, Mr. Bowie.

Rissten
08-27-2007, 09:17 AM
This is a team based game as stated at high levels caster are supposed to be powerful, for example of how it's balance at level 1 I had to depend on the tanks to carry me though quest. Now at high levels I carry tanks. But, still you have to base your play style to the group your in. If a Sorc or Wiz knows what he is doing he makes life easier on the clerics. Instead of chaseing tanks around he has a caster that can be healed useing lower healing spells instead of hitting tanks with 3 heal spells to get them back up. Tanks are still needed. I don't pay any attention to the kill count other then to see if we got conquest. Bottom line big mob fights can go terribley bad with no crowd contrl what so ever. On another note PK FoD spamming casters are the one that can't hit hard, and if you want a glimps of what it's going to be like for that build at higher levels, just take a trip to the haven in house K and go have them try to spam that stuff on the trolls which have death block :)

Cowdenicus
08-27-2007, 09:27 AM
If your wizard needs to res, you wasn't doing a great job in the first place.

And this one statement ends the debate in a flash, because very few truer words have ever been spoken.

BTW

QFT

chemonz
08-27-2007, 09:46 AM
I think several factors might come into the game that may make wizards as powerful as sorcerers by level 20. First off I wouldn't be surprised to see more metamagic come into the game for high level casters.

If I was the devs I might consider new metamagic types like permanent spell. It would need to be implemented more like it is in NWN2 where it takes up mana as a spell 6 levels higher and it can only be cast on a level of spell that is 6 lower than the highest you can cast. In other words, if you can cast 7th as your highest than it only works on 1st level spells, and if you can cast 9th level spells it works on up to 3rd level spells. Permanent spells would last the entire time you are in an instance, until you leave or die. I think with 9th level spells it is obvious where this would be of most use.....haste! You could also limit it to only certain spells as they do in NWN2.

Also I think high SR will become a staple of high level mobs, in fact there may be whole dungeons with high SR mobs. This means that Spell pen feats will become very necessary. With changes like these wizards will be able to do it all much more so than a sorc with all their extra feats. Sorcerers would be forced to go in one direction or another due to a lack of feats.

Finally, wizards can multi-class much easier than a sorcerer. If a sorc takes a level or 2 of something else at level 20 he/she loses out on some important spell slots, of which they only have a few at high levels (3 per level at 6 and higher spell levels). For a wizard losing a few spell slots is not as much a problem. They have more to begin with and can change out spells to fit each dungeon. So a wiz18/rogue 2 has the more spells to cast, just as high a umd, evasion, and enough mana if managed correctly.

In the end I think they will be equal, but with differences in play style that may be more pronounced.

Gathor_Stormforge
08-27-2007, 10:10 AM
A good INT Rune ought to do it.

Aspenor
08-27-2007, 10:43 AM
Great, you can take care of yourself.

Can you rez the Cleric?

*Snort* Who plays with clerics? What a worthless class.

moorewr
08-27-2007, 10:46 AM
*Snort* Who plays with clerics? What a worthless class.

Actually, from here on out clerics will be a pretty impressive offensive class. They're transformed around level 13 and it will just get better from there. Destruction and banishment with heighten alone make them pretty scary.

Cowdenicus
08-27-2007, 10:49 AM
*Snort* Who plays with clerics? What a worthless class.

That will be enough from you Mister. Dont you have a zone to go solo farm?

Aspenor
08-27-2007, 10:56 AM
That will be enough from you Mister. Dont you have a zone to go solo farm?

Not till I get off work :) And I prefer running with one other person, not alone.

Charmazal
08-27-2007, 11:47 AM
Someone mentioned immunities above, which I think is likely. As I've posted before in these forums, some of this could also be resolved by mobs pre-buffing and doing it somewhat randomly and intelligently.

For example, having all of the Giants in Gianthold Tor immune to a large number of spells seems kind of lame. But, what if 1 in 4 of them had Deathblock on, another one had FoM, and a couple of them kept up other buffs? Maybe a Fear Immunity spell for PK could be added (or just have them cast GH). To me, it would enhance the difficulty of the missions without feeling cheap. And if done correctly it could preferentially affect some classes more than others (i.e., Deathward isn't going to prevent the barb with the big sword). If used in the right places it could also make some classes more useful in quests where they don't get a lot of invites.

I'm not sure how likely this is, but I don't think it would be ridiculous to code.

.

I agree - if they could pull it off that would be very cool. Adds a level of randomness - can't just automatically assume that paralyzer will work because one or two *might* have freedom of movement on them. Really good idea.

Dkmafia
08-27-2007, 12:49 PM
D&D is not balanced for the individual. It is balanced towards the group, and the central character of that group is the magic-user. Even at early levels, the rest of the characters in the party should be molding their tactics around the spells in the caster's arsenal. It's the nature of the game.

The problem with this standard D&D concept in DDO is that Turbine has corrupted the game, making it more about individual achievement and item acquisition than about anything else. Even amongst guild groups, the majority of the game seems to be comparing kill counts and uber items.

The funny thing is, a sorceror hardly needs a single item to be superiorly uber over most other characters, especially nonmagical melee. So the facade of this game is actually a complete hoax.

Well said!! OMG lets hear this again:

"The problem with this standard D&D concept in DDO is that Turbine has corrupted the game, making it more about individual achievement and item acquisition than about anything else. Even amongst guild groups, the majority of the game seems to be comparing kill counts and uber items."

Just wow. People pay attention here!! I wish this concept would sink into your thick @$$ skulls.

Seneca_Windforge
08-27-2007, 01:42 PM
One good way to balance sorcerers with wizards (at least in my opinion) is to make sure that each spell level has at least 7-8 good spells, preferably more. That way, the wizard's additional spell slots and ability to easily switch spells is useful, while the sorcerer is forced to make very painful decisions about what spells to take in exchange for additional SP and a casting time decrease. You already have that to some degree at certain spell levels right now, but some spell levels have only a couple of really good spells (and some, like the 5th level spell list, pretty much just suck).

It is unfortunate that a large portion of the arcane spell list is nearly worthless in most circumstances.

Cowdenicus
08-27-2007, 01:45 PM
One good way to balance sorcerers with wizards (at least in my opinion) is to make sure that each spell level has at least 7-8 good spells, preferably more. That way, the wizard's additional spell slots and ability to easily switch spells is useful, while the sorcerer is forced to make very painful decisions about what spells to take in exchange for additional SP and a casting time decrease. You already have that to some degree at certain spell levels right now, but some spell levels have only a couple of really good spells (and some, like the 5th level spell list, pretty much just suck).

It is unfortunate that a large portion of the arcane spell list is nearly worthless in most circumstances.

I would like to point you to what the divine spell lists will be for level 8 and 9.

Seneca_Windforge
08-27-2007, 01:54 PM
I would like to point you to what the divine spell lists will be for level 8 and 9.

Yes, the level 8 and 9 cleric spells are nice. Mass Cure Critical, Holy Aura, Greater Spell Immunity, Fire Storm, Symbol of Death, Energy Drain, Mass Heal, Implosion, True Resurrection...

How is this relevant to my post (which was about balance between high level sorcerers and wizards)? There are plenty of good Sor/Wiz spells at level 8 and 9, too.

Cowdenicus
08-27-2007, 02:51 PM
Yes, the level 8 and 9 cleric spells are nice. Mass Cure Critical, Holy Aura, Greater Spell Immunity, Fire Storm, Symbol of Death, Energy Drain, Mass Heal, Implosion, True Resurrection...

How is this relevant to my post (which was about balance between high level sorcerers and wizards)? There are plenty of good Sor/Wiz spells at level 8 and 9, too.

Mass cure and heal, yes.

Holy Aura is a no go, they havent given us any of our aura spells, greater spell immunity is a no go, as you can see we do not have spell immunity now. Heck we dont even have energy immunity yet.

Fire storm may be all right.

Symbol of death will be worthless (read the spell description to figure out why.)

Energy Drain, meh, it might be all right, depends on all mobs immunities by that point.

Implosion I put right there with miracle, it will be a miracle if we see it.

Aesop
08-27-2007, 03:02 PM
Mass cure and heal, yes.

Holy Aura is a no go, they havent given us any of our aura spells, greater spell immunity is a no go, as you can see we do not have spell immunity now. Heck we dont even have energy immunity yet.

Fire storm may be all right.

Symbol of death will be worthless (read the spell description to figure out why.)

Energy Drain, meh, it might be all right, depends on all mobs immunities by that point.

Implosion I put right there with miracle, it will be a miracle if we see it.

I think we'll see it ...but may not recognize it as such... unless they make it a rolling ball like Flaming Sphere... though I'd suspect something more like an AoE Destruction

Aesop

transtemporal
08-27-2007, 04:09 PM
No no no, sorcerers are every bit as human and vulnerable as the rest of you meat shiel.. er, party members. We value and respect every member of the party, even though we know we could make you dance a polka and there would be nothing you could do about it. :)

Seriously though, sorcerers/wizards have the same vulnerabilities at 20th level that they have at 1st level - they are soft and squishy and don't have many hp.
I guess high AC stops being the differentiator it was at low levels because mob attack bonus has long since outpaced AC bonus, making it virtually certain that even ultra-high AC toons will get hit (at least this is the case in the PnP game, not sure if its as much of a factor in DDO). Their vulnerability is still their crappy hp. 2 or 3 hits and its goodbye birdy.

Dragonhyde
08-27-2007, 04:17 PM
Want to make that Sorc less scary just have less shrines, no ability to recall for mana and have him anger the only cleric in the party with dvs.:p

Draclaud
08-28-2007, 08:29 AM
I've been mulling about this... and I have to say... I'm concerned.

What will Sorcerors be like at level 20?

Currently... Sorcerors can kill with a word, charm constantly, raise the dead, heal like mad, and lob damage spells left and right, and can come equipped with more than a few rather useful buffs.

I've seen Sorcs cure blindness, disease, paralysis. I've seen Sorcs raise the dead. I've seen Sorcs wand heal very very well... and in some ways, I've seen Sorcs... well... Tank.

Yeah, Sorcs can... in a backhanded way, tank.

When a Sorceror charms five guys... that's what he's doing. He's tanking.

He's keeping the aggro off the team. Sure, it can be considered crowd control, but isn't tanking just another form thereof?


So, one must ask... where does it end? The immense power of the Sorceror...


At level 20 a Sorceror will be able to (most likely, if the Devs give them the iconic spell) walk into a room and kill everything in it with a single spell. What's worse they will be able to fire this spell off repetitively. A level 9 spell will only cost 50 sp. How much SP will a level 20 Sorc have? A few thousand? Most likely.


What's going to happen when Sorcs ascend to virtual godhood at level 20?

Not sure which one, but they desribe Epic Level Sorcerors as "Near Mythic Beings". They arn't going to be any more powerful than a necro-specced cleric at that level, or a wizard. Good Golly, "Wail of the Banshee" is going to be a monster if it's ever put in the game. As some one said earlier though, as levels go up so do spell resistances, and saves. DnD PnPis like this as well, Up to level 10 mele's rule the game. After level 10 it's all about the tanks keeping the monsters off the mage so he can kill everything. Right around epic levels though it starts to taper back to the meles again. Don't fret man, this is how it's suppoed to work. DnD is a very balanced game where different classes shine at different levels.

teddok
08-28-2007, 08:32 AM
Wow. What will be the difference from a lvl 25 Sorc or a lvl 25 Bard. They will both be killing machines and on the same token they will be up against lvl appropreate foes.

blakbyrd
08-28-2007, 09:08 AM
Honestly I wish that Mobs would cast Defensive Spells more often and less often were just given immunities... that way we could dispel them and use tactics as opposed to just slamming our heads into them.


Aesop

I completely agree

JosephKell
08-28-2007, 06:03 PM
A good INT Rune ought to do it.*snort* This does seem to be the reason to bring a Wizard isn't it.
Actually, from here on out clerics will be a pretty impressive offensive class. They're transformed around level 13 and it will just get better from there. Destruction and banishment with heighten alone make them pretty scary.Anyone familiar with the term CoDzilla? In PnP it is reliant on a broken mechanic called Divine Metamagic. But in DDO with spell points, it shouldn't be too hard to do a CoDzilla.
Yes, the level 8 and 9 cleric spells are nice. Mass Cure Critical, Holy Aura, Greater Spell Immunity, Fire Storm, Symbol of Death, Energy Drain, Mass Heal, Implosion, True Resurrection...

How is this relevant to my post (which was about balance between high level sorcerers and wizards)? There are plenty of good Sor/Wiz spells at level 8 and 9, too.I think LotD series will be hilarious with an all Cleric party spamming Mass Heal! :D

spifflove
08-29-2007, 10:59 AM
All of the mobs will be hordes of sorcerers. Hope you don,t mind when they cast dispel magic on your charmed army.

Verlok_the_Red
08-29-2007, 04:34 PM
All of the mobs will be hordes of sorcerers. Hope you don,t mind when they cast dispel magic on your charmed army.

Lol, I was just wondering if Turbine would make npc's dispel their charmed friends.. lol probally not, b/c evey damm wizard would litter the board with complaints.. ahaha.. Monsters get a full selection of spells.. I just wish their AI would include useing them :)

MtnLion
08-30-2007, 12:16 PM
All of the mobs will be hordes of sorcerers. Hope you don,t mind when they cast dispel magic on your charmed army.

In several quests, especially ones with scorrow, I have noticed dispel being cast by the mobs on attackers. It is not unlikely, at present, to have a charmed mob dispelled.

Ishturi
08-30-2007, 08:26 PM
And that is why sorcerers have mana, and tanks don't.

You see, we can only kill so many mobs per shrine. Tanks can kill INFINITE. And with SR 30 mobs, FoD bounces off stuff.

Plus, 3 troll swings = dead caster. 3 troll swings = slightly dented tank.

In_Like_Flynn
09-05-2007, 09:30 AM
What will Sorcerors be like at level 20?Sorcerers are overpowered for the first two minutes of a dungeon, and for ninety seconds after each shrine. That won't change.

BUpcott
09-05-2007, 09:45 AM
Sorcerers are overpowered for the first two minutes of a dungeon, and for ninety seconds after each shrine. That won't change.

Care to elaborate?

Borror0
09-05-2007, 09:51 AM
Care to elaborate?

I think he cannot use his rescource properly and end up mana short after 90 secs. That's the only way, because my lv 5 sorc rarely end up short on mana.

Rissten
09-05-2007, 10:14 AM
Well this is a funny topic and I don't know what server you play on. But, the very first person I know of to solo the reaver was a wizard! I won't mention his name but it was on youtube, He owns sorc's in PvP and is an all around good guy. Always willing to help people out. It's all in how you build your caster. Yes, Sorc's cast faster because magic is in their blood not though study as wizards do. In most quest I welcome wizards to accompany my sorc cause of their spell selection and to help me nuke in most cases. Their is no way a sorc can match a wiz for cc. They can cc and hit hard. So, I have a high UMD big deal, I've seen rogues and bards raise dead and use heal scrolls without failure. Hell my guild leader has a pally rogue build that was useing heal scrolls at level 8.

Dingo123
09-05-2007, 12:34 PM
Well this is a funny topic and I don't know what server you play on. But, the very first person I know of to solo the reaver was a wizard! I won't mention his name but it was on youtube, He owns sorc's in PvP and is an all around good guy. Always willing to help people out. It's all in how you build your caster. Yes, Sorc's cast faster because magic is in their blood not though study as wizards do. In most quest I welcome wizards to accompany my sorc cause of their spell selection and to help me nuke in most cases. Their is no way a sorc can match a wiz for cc. They can cc and hit hard. So, I have a high UMD big deal, I've seen rogues and bards raise dead and use heal scrolls without failure. Hell my guild leader has a pally rogue build that was useing heal scrolls at level 8.


Wizards, currently, can tailor their spells much better to the situation than a Sorc can.

By level 20, a Sorceror won't need to by virtue of the sheer number of spell slots they will have at their disposal.

TreknaQudane
09-05-2007, 12:39 PM
And a wizard will still have more and better metamagic to apply

All the worrying about sorcerers is needless. They are the magical brutes of D&D. Wizards are what you want to worry about, they make the rules of magic turn into a pretzel and kiss its butt with the amount of metas they know and can apply to essential make one spell something entirely new.

That being said. At 20, a wizard/sorc will have a base of 100 HP + any items or con modifier. Squishy yes. If they want to raise that most if not all of their other points at creation need be dumped in CON for what at the end will be a very minimal return.

Dingo123
09-05-2007, 12:47 PM
And a wizard will still have more and better metamagic to apply

All the worrying about sorcerers is needless. They are the magical brutes of D&D. Wizards are what you want to worry about, they make the rules of magic turn into a pretzel and kiss its butt with the amount of metas they know and can apply to essential make one spell something entirely new.

That being said. At 20, a wizard/sorc will have a base of 100 HP + any items or con modifier. Squishy yes. If they want to raise that most if not all of their other points at creation need be dumped in CON for what at the end will be a very minimal return.

Minimal return? A Sorc who starts with 16 con will end the game with +60 HP. That's hardly "minimal". A Barb might have a gajillion hitpoints, that's all well and good. He's supposed to. He stands in Combat, a Sorc does not.


And Wizards will certainly have more access to spells, but again, just how many spells do you need after a certain point? Who needs to Dominate/Charm a Person/Monster when you can cast Suggestion on them? Who needs magic missile/niac's/shocking grasp/melf's acid arrow... when you can spam disintegrate or Finger of Death?

See what I'm getting at here?

Then Factor in the Sorc's supremely useful UMD... and you have a Force to be reckoned with.

TreknaQudane
09-05-2007, 12:53 PM
Sorcs do NOT get umd, they can get half ranks which will make their UMD scores inherently inferior to a Bards, or lose a spell level by multiclassing to have equal.


And while you are looking at the high end of the spell spectrum for a sorc and low for a wizard. Keep in mind a Wizard will get MORE of the higher ones than a sorc will.

I just want to see a Wizard with Weird..

Spookydodger
09-05-2007, 02:15 PM
No, they are not identical. A Sorceror will very much hold onto the ridiculously nice benefit of fast casting and reduced cooldowns.

A Sorcerors Spells Per Second and DPS is superior to that of a Wizards. A Sorceror can cast suggestion, for example, far more frequently in a given timespan than a Wizard.

However, all this ignores perhaps the single most important thing about a Sorc outside of their spellcasting.

UMD. A sorceror's UMD is through the roof, enabling that Font of Destructive energy access to some of the most beneficial clerical spells and wands in the game.


Think on it, a great deal of what high level Clerics do is cast heal from a Scroll....

How long until a Sorceror can reliably cast "Heal" endlessly? Something almost certainly no Wizard could do.

[COLOR="LightGreen"]To get a Sorcerer up to ~30 UMD, AND be able to cast their spells reliably, is no easy trick. I'm not going to say it's impossible, but it's really damn hard, few could attempt it.

Fear the sorcerer a lot more who can't UMD at all, for they have put their points into other, more pertinent areas.

Honestly, I don't know which casters you are running with, but I rarely see Sorcerers that can do much more than chug potions. Heck, mine can't even cast resist-energy on herself. Though her charms and firewalls rock.

It's a trade off.

And don't forget, Wizards get more feats than Sorcerers, enabling them to have more metamagics and, perhaps more importantly, more spell focus enhancements.

Wizards can also change their spells for any occassion. I know one very powerful Sorcerer friend who will be almost useless when Mod 5 comes in unless he spends tons of cash to change his spells.

Dharma
09-05-2007, 02:22 PM
I have a sorc with 27.5 UMD (Golden Cartouche & GH) and didn't sacrifice anything of value to get there. When I make my roll it is actually 29 as I have the Head of Good Fortune. So it isn't that hard to get 30ish on UMD. It is relatively easy to use Heal and Raise scrolls and quite easy to use a cure serious wand.

Once I get a +2 or +3 chr tome it will be even higher as my stat modifier will be better.

The only real downsides to the sorc are the ability to change many spells quickly and the number of spells per level. The spell focus feats aren't really a big deal with the right gear.

With 174 hp and 1835 sp you shouldn't ever run out of sp in 90 seconds either.

Dingo123
09-05-2007, 02:30 PM
Sorcs do NOT get umd, they can get half ranks which will make their UMD scores inherently inferior to a Bards, or lose a spell level by multiclassing to have equal.


And while you are looking at the high end of the spell spectrum for a sorc and low for a wizard. Keep in mind a Wizard will get MORE of the higher ones than a sorc will.

I just want to see a Wizard with Weird..

A Sorc with Wail of the Banshee will be far more devastating than a Wizard with Weird.

Borrigain
09-05-2007, 03:01 PM
Sorcerers are overpowered for the first two minutes of a dungeon, and for ninety seconds after each shrine. That won't change.


Care to elaborate?


I think he cannot use his rescource properly and end up mana short after 90 secs. That's the only way, because my lv 5 sorc rarely end up short on mana.

Whew! Thank God. I thought for a moment you were talking about me and my wife :eek:

:D

Borr.

In_Like_Flynn
09-05-2007, 03:07 PM
Care to elaborate?Sorcerers with full mana bars have the restraint of six-year-olds with a cap guns.

moorewr
09-05-2007, 03:08 PM
Sorcerers with full mana bars have the restraint of six-year-olds with a cap guns.

I can't help it. PK is just so much fun!

In_Like_Flynn
09-05-2007, 03:12 PM
I can't help it. PK is just so much fun!Hack hack hack hack ... hey, where did that finger come from?

Elvish_Ranger
09-05-2007, 03:20 PM
ok for all of your information i run a lvl 14 pure wizzie
i can swap out any spell, i can hit 600 points on a chain lightning to multiple enemies, i can res, i can heal, i can umd....so were is this bonus on me your saying ya they do 300 more on a chain then i do but ohh well i can highten extend, maximise empower and enlarge my spells i have 1273 sp,

my umd is 23.5 w/ gh no cartouch yet hehe give me a bard and the cart i will be at 28, when i run the titan even higher


so stop whining and just spec your toon for what you want



Innovindil Whitehair lvl 14 wizzard-origianlly from lhazaar, officer in swa

BUpcott
09-05-2007, 03:30 PM
Sorcerers with full mana bars have the restraint of six-year-olds with a cap guns.

I don't want to sound "Uber" but if a sorc is going thru SP that fast they don't know how to play their class.

Jilliane
09-05-2007, 03:35 PM
I don't want to sound "Uber" but if a sorc is going thru SP that fast they don't know how to play their class.


Or, they are having way too much fun with it. :)

Arnya
09-05-2007, 04:28 PM
Or, they are having way too much fun with it. :)


QFT :)

BURN!!!

..I....Like...To....Kill.....Things

slumbering_dragon
09-05-2007, 04:37 PM
i belive forthe better of the game they need to nurf SP and got he orriganal way of D&D, u have this many spells per rest and that is it.

redoubt
09-05-2007, 05:05 PM
Honestly I wish that Mobs would cast Defensive Spells more often and less often were just given immunities... that way we could dispel them and use tactics as opposed to just slamming our heads into them.


Aesop

Disagree with dingo as usuall, but agree with you.

I examine mobs a lot hoping to see something worth dispeling... alas... they are usually just naturally immune.

Spookydodger
09-05-2007, 05:27 PM
Disagree with dingo as usuall, but agree with you.

I examine mobs a lot hoping to see something worth dispeling... alas... they are usually just naturally immune.

They're not naturally immune, they're wearing items that vanish on death :D

Spookydodger
09-05-2007, 05:34 PM
If you are wearing a golden cartouche and giant head, you are sacrificing item slots towards UMD. These item slots are typically for things like extra-spell points, protection, or resistances. You may have these moved to other item spaces, but make no mistake, you are sacrificing something to get those extra points. You have enough to UMD a wand without any worries.

What about your DCs on spells? What's your damage like? These are important things, too. You have average to good spell points, and slightly above average hitpoints. Who can say if anything has been sacrificed.

I'm not saying that it's impossible. I'm not saying that there aren't twinktacular things that can be done.

You got a lot of UMD, I got diplomacy to make mobs forget me. These are all choices we make. What's your concentration skill like? That's another benefit of Wizards: more skill points to sprinkle around. Done right, those "throw away skills" become amazingly useful.

I don't personally think that many casters ever click on that "cower" button.


I have a sorc with 27.5 UMD (Golden Cartouche & GH) and didn't sacrifice anything of value to get there. When I make my roll it is actually 29 as I have the Head of Good Fortune. So it isn't that hard to get 30ish on UMD. It is relatively easy to use Heal and Raise scrolls and quite easy to use a cure serious wand.

Once I get a +2 or +3 chr tome it will be even higher as my stat modifier will be better.

The only real downsides to the sorc are the ability to change many spells quickly and the number of spells per level. The spell focus feats aren't really a big deal with the right gear.

With 174 hp and 1835 sp you shouldn't ever run out of sp in 90 seconds either.

Mhykke
09-05-2007, 06:19 PM
i belive forthe better of the game they need to nurf SP and got he orriganal way of D&D, u have this many spells per rest and that is it.

Well, if they drastically revamped they way the did mobs, then maybe.

But if not, then you'd see the game shut down. It would be terrible to implement that if they left mobs the way they are.

Dingo123
09-05-2007, 09:32 PM
If you are wearing a golden cartouche and giant head, you are sacrificing item slots towards UMD. These item slots are typically for things like extra-spell points, protection, or resistances. You may have these moved to other item spaces, but make no mistake, you are sacrificing something to get those extra points. You have enough to UMD a wand without any worries.

What about your DCs on spells? What's your damage like? These are important things, too. You have average to good spell points, and slightly above average hitpoints. Who can say if anything has been sacrificed.

I'm not saying that it's impossible. I'm not saying that there aren't twinktacular things that can be done.

You got a lot of UMD, I got diplomacy to make mobs forget me. These are all choices we make. What's your concentration skill like? That's another benefit of Wizards: more skill points to sprinkle around. Done right, those "throw away skills" become amazingly useful.

I don't personally think that many casters ever click on that "cower" button.


My little Sorc has Diplo, UMD, and Concentration. Those are the only skills a Sorc really ever truly needs.

Krell
09-05-2007, 10:04 PM
I've been mulling about this... and I have to say... I'm concerned.

What will Sorcerors be like at level 20?

Currently... Sorcerors can kill with a word, charm constantly, raise the dead, heal like mad, and lob damage spells left and right, and can come equipped with more than a few rather useful buffs.

I've seen Sorcs cure blindness, disease, paralysis. I've seen Sorcs raise the dead. I've seen Sorcs wand heal very very well... and in some ways, I've seen Sorcs... well... Tank.

Yeah, Sorcs can... in a backhanded way, tank.

When a Sorceror charms five guys... that's what he's doing. He's tanking.

He's keeping the aggro off the team. Sure, it can be considered crowd control, but isn't tanking just another form thereof?


So, one must ask... where does it end? The immense power of the Sorceror...


At level 20 a Sorceror will be able to (most likely, if the Devs give them the iconic spell) walk into a room and kill everything in it with a single spell. What's worse they will be able to fire this spell off repetitively. A level 9 spell will only cost 50 sp. How much SP will a level 20 Sorc have? A few thousand? Most likely.


What's going to happen when Sorcs ascend to virtual godhood at level 20?

Lets see how well some of those spells work in Mod5 against undead. I love my Sorcerer but there is a reason I also leveled up a Wizard.

As far as level 20, I think some of the creatures we will be fighting by then will also be very powerful. There is always balance. In PnP and even DDO to some extent the caster is very weak at low levels and its the melees doing the killing. At higher levels the balance tilts the other way, at least in PnP. We'll have to wait and see how it works out here ;).

Dingo123
09-05-2007, 10:15 PM
Lets see how well some of those spells work in Mod5 against undead. I love my Sorcerer but there is a reason I also leveled up a Wizard.

As far as level 20, I think some of the creatures we will be fighting by then will also be very powerful. There is always balance. In PnP and even DDO to some extent the caster is very weak at low levels and its the melees doing the killing. At higher levels the balance tilts the other way, at least in PnP. We'll have to wait and see how it works out here ;).

Spam Disintegrate against undead. At least the ones that need to be made dead.

Ones that can be useful, charm.

Krell
09-05-2007, 10:44 PM
That being said. At 20, a wizard/sorc will have a base of 100 HP + any items or con modifier. Squishy yes. If they want to raise that most if not all of their other points at creation need be dumped in CON for what at the end will be a very minimal return.

I don't know, my Warforged Wizard has 242 health (28 Con) and can heal himself full with 35 spell points or 2 scrolls. I've found that extra health to be very useful compared to my squishy Drow Sorcerer with around 140 health.

Elvish_Ranger
09-06-2007, 08:11 AM
well if it comes down to it i think my wizzie is the biggies squishy lvl 14 and 76hp hehehe clerics love that it takes one cure serious and im full health lol

Aspenor
09-06-2007, 08:58 AM
Spam Disintegrate against undead. At least the ones that need to be made dead.

Ones that can be useful, charm.

Hmmm, this post just made me like this guy :)

The_Truth
09-09-2007, 09:59 PM
A Sorc with Wail of the Banshee will be far more devastating than a Wizard with Weird.

A wizard will still have the chance to pick up both Weird and WOB. A soc, might not even have a 9th level spell slot. Not to mention the "wish" spell. As a wizard progress he will progressively become stronger than a soc.
End Game.

Kaboth
09-10-2007, 10:06 AM
A wizard will still have the chance to pick up both Weird and WOB. A soc, might not even have a 9th level spell slot. Not to mention the "wish" spell. As a wizard progress he will progressively become stronger than a soc.
End Game.

Why wouldnt a Sorcerer have his 9th level spells? The only reason is if Turbine for some reason only released a 1 level expansion and the cap was at 17th, but as far as I know they do 2 level expansions... 10, 12, 14, see a pattern? So at 18th level a sorcerer will have their 9th level spell slot. AFAIK, they plan to eventually hit 20th level and beyond which by then at 20th level a Sorcerer should have 3 9th level spells to utilize.

Bizbag
09-10-2007, 11:26 AM
Why wouldnt a Sorcerer have his 9th level spells? The only reason is if Turbine for some reason only released a 1 level expansion and the cap was at 17th, but as far as I know they do 2 level expansions... 10, 12, 14, see a pattern? So at 18th level a sorcerer will have their 9th level spell slot. AFAIK, they plan to eventually hit 20th level and beyond which by then at 20th level a Sorcerer should have 3 9th level spells to utilize.

At least in PnP, useful level 9 spells include (but are not limited to) Meteor Swarm, Wish, Mass Hold Monster, Wail of the Banshee, Weird, Power Word: Kill and Time Stop. That makes it hard to pick which ones to take on a sorc.

jonnyb
09-11-2007, 11:20 AM
A few thousand? Most likely.

lol more like nearing 10 thousand my lvl 9 have 1082 as it is with a power 4 item and a +3 cha cloak :D

KALASHTAR
09-11-2007, 05:18 PM
I've been mulling about this... and I have to say... I'm concerned.

What will Sorcerors be like at level 20?

Currently... Sorcerors can kill with a word, charm constantly, raise the dead, heal like mad, and lob damage spells left and right, and can come equipped with more than a few rather useful buffs.

I've seen Sorcs cure blindness, disease, paralysis. I've seen Sorcs raise the dead. I've seen Sorcs wand heal very very well... and in some ways, I've seen Sorcs... well... Tank.

Yeah, Sorcs can... in a backhanded way, tank.

When a Sorceror charms five guys... that's what he's doing. He's tanking.

He's keeping the aggro off the team. Sure, it can be considered crowd control, but isn't tanking just another form thereof?


So, one must ask... where does it end? The immense power of the Sorceror...


At level 20 a Sorceror will be able to (most likely, if the Devs give them the iconic spell) walk into a room and kill everything in it with a single spell. What's worse they will be able to fire this spell off repetitively. A level 9 spell will only cost 50 sp. How much SP will a level 20 Sorc have? A few thousand? Most likely.


What's going to happen when Sorcs ascend to virtual godhood at level 20?

really I kind of think that sort of makes up for only having 70 hit points at level 10

GlassCannon
09-12-2007, 03:17 AM
Sorry if I scared you. It'll be ok so long as you aren't on the other side of the Deathmatch Arena. I'm on your side, REALLY!! Don't be afraid.

Once we of the Caster denomination reach our godlike status you can simply follow closely behind, patching our wounds, rushing forward to gather our enemies into a huge group(so we can nuke them all at once), or just being yourself in a dungeon for comedic value and to have a good time... we'll solo most of the hard parts so you don't have to. As for puzzles... those break us quite easily and we shy away from them. That's(usually) why we bring others along. Puzzle Food.:D

Biz, thats easy. Time Stop to go with my Haste. Second choice due to elemental spec would likely be Meteor Swarm. Mass Hold would be the 3rd slot.... what does Wish do again?:D

Twerpp
09-12-2007, 07:00 PM
You are supposed to fear level 20 Sorcs and Wizards too. You can still laugh at Bards though:p . Ever read a D&D novel? Fireball contests that leave craters in the ground, spells powerful enough to bring down towers and castle walls, obliterate entire units at a time. You should fear a level 20 caster like you would a dragon. That said when the spells run out they've got a robe and a dagger to defend them. Just the way this world works bud.

ccheath776
09-12-2007, 07:37 PM
I've been mulling about this... and I have to say... I'm concerned.

What will Sorcerors be like at level 20?

Currently... Sorcerors can kill with a word, charm constantly, raise the dead, heal like mad, and lob damage spells left and right, and can come equipped with more than a few rather useful buffs.

I've seen Sorcs cure blindness, disease, paralysis. I've seen Sorcs raise the dead. I've seen Sorcs wand heal very very well... and in some ways, I've seen Sorcs... well... Tank.

Yeah, Sorcs can... in a backhanded way, tank.

When a Sorceror charms five guys... that's what he's doing. He's tanking.

He's keeping the aggro off the team. Sure, it can be considered crowd control, but isn't tanking just another form thereof?


So, one must ask... where does it end? The immense power of the Sorceror...


At level 20 a Sorceror will be able to (most likely, if the Devs give them the iconic spell) walk into a room and kill everything in it with a single spell. What's worse they will be able to fire this spell off repetitively. A level 9 spell will only cost 50 sp. How much SP will a level 20 Sorc have? A few thousand? Most likely.


What's going to happen when Sorcs ascend to virtual godhood at level 20?

Dont fear sorcerors, fear my sorceror. She can kill you with your own thoughts and make you dance for her while she does it.
The worst thing to do to a dark hearted evil arcanist with the knowledge of a thousand years behind her is to give her more powers.
The day she logged on and had 2000 SP was the day the monsters just cleared out of the quest and gave her completion rewards.
They still have a sign posted over VON 3 that says CC's sorceror not allowed under any circumstances.

Cambo
09-12-2007, 09:27 PM
Level 20.
At level 20 a lot of mobs we face and even in P&P will have immunities, hitpoints and counterspells that make the balance for/against Sorcerers...

The Dev's will not let a level 20 Sorc in DDO walk into high level quest and wipe out the whole dungeon with 1/2 a mana bar left.

And even Melee types will walkthrough low-medium level stuff when they are at 20.

300 HP damage "unavoidable/resistable traps are still pretty nasty to a 200 hp sorcerer when no one has a rogue to disable them cause everyone wants a sorcerer...PS How's your Fortitude save for high level desintegration traps...

Hey what about that anitmagic room that we just wen into....can any of Us sorcerers (imagine a group of 6 sorcerers) take out the 2000 HP Boss with Melee...when he does 400hp damage per hit...

Plenty of room for all classes if the Devs choose to dev that way...

GlassCannon
09-13-2007, 12:12 AM
Level 20.
At level 20 a lot of mobs we face and even in P&P will have immunities, hitpoints and counterspells that make the balance for/against Sorcerers...

The Dev's will not let a level 20 Sorc in DDO walk into high level quest and wipe out the whole dungeon with 1/2 a mana bar left.

And even Melee types will walkthrough low-medium level stuff when they are at 20.

300 HP damage "unavoidable/resistable traps are still pretty nasty to a 200 hp sorcerer when no one has a rogue to disable them cause everyone wants a sorcerer...PS How's your Fortitude save for high level desintegration traps...

Hey what about that anitmagic room that we just wen into....can any of Us sorcerers (imagine a group of 6 sorcerers) take out the 2000 HP Boss with Melee...when he does 400hp damage per hit...

Plenty of room for all classes if the Devs choose to dev that way...

You make me cry.:(

I want to be capable of clearing a lvl 20 dungeon on Elite with half my mana bar left!:D

I love that kind of stuff.

NNNNUUUUUUUUUKKKEEEEEE!!! Oh... yeah, that was 70 monsters at once, wasn't it? Yeah, their HP *was* full... isn't anymore... they're all kinda... dead.:D

Though... Antimagic Room sounds appealing to strategy, would make me think a bit.