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Tragikk
08-23-2007, 07:08 PM
Im tryng to understand how saving throws for mobs works. I seem to get resisted alot atm. . and am trying to figure out what the best way to get these spells to stick are. Finally, i need to know if spell penetration stacks. .

Ok, so heighten spell ups the level of the spell making it harder for them to resist correct? so a level 1 spell could be cast at level 5 (assuming you could cast a lvl 5 spell) making it +4harder to resist??

But, a lvl 5 spell when heightened would have no effect. .

ok next
spell penetration +2 to caster level check= this means that a lvl 1 spell with spell penetration would be cast as a level 3, but a level 5 spell would be cast as if it were a level 7 spell?

if this is correct, then I would think spell penetration would be the better bet correct?

Last thing, I have spell penetration +4 as an enhancement, if i took the +2 feat that would stack to give me +6 correct?

thanks for all the help,i hope this wasnt too confusing.

Symar-FangofLloth
08-23-2007, 07:52 PM
Spell Pen just lets you get through Spell Resistance easier, which mostly only drow have.
Heighten will boost the DCs of your spells, but also cost you more SP.
Heighten is probably what you're looking for.

transtemporal
08-23-2007, 08:05 PM
Ok, so heighten spell ups the level of the spell making it harder for them to resist correct? so a level 1 spell could be cast at level 5 (assuming you could cast a lvl 5 spell) making it +4harder to resist??

But, a lvl 5 spell when heightened would have no effect. .

Correct, assuming level 5 spells were the highest you could cast. Note also that (as at mod 4.2) Heighten increases the spell point cost to that of your highest level spell (in this case 5).

Heighten, school focus feats and school focus item (actually does anyone know whether a school focus item stacks with the feat?) increase the Difficulty Class (DC) required to save against your spell. Also helps to have your spellcasting stat as high as possible.

The DC formula is: 10 + spell level + spell stat + bonuses vs <save>

Also, you might need to tailor your spell against the creature to have the highest chance of making it stick. Will save spells against grunts, fort save spells against wiz/sorc, reflex against anyone but rogues.


spell penetration +2 to caster level check= this means that a lvl 1 spell with spell penetration would be cast as a level 3, but a level 5 spell would be cast as if it were a level 7 spell?

Nope. Spell penetration doesn't add to the DC of the save. It helps you get past creatures Spell Resistance (SR), which is a different thing. Most creatures don't have SR at low levels but at mid-high levels you'll meet creatures like drow, mindflayers, demons, devils that have it. Also, in hard and elite difficulties the creatures have pumped up SR, which is where feats like spell pen, greater spell pen come into their own.

Somebody said that SR isn't counted against damaging spells but I don't know if thats true. Can anyone clarify?

The caster level check formula is: d20 + caster level + bonuses vs SR If you get over it, the creature then has to make a save or whatever it does depending on the spell.


Last thing, I have spell penetration +4 as an enhancement, if i took the +2 feat that would stack to give me +6 correct?

Correct. Remember that this doesn't add to the DC of the spell. It only helps you get past SR (this isn't a bad thing though, I am doing the same thing).

Sokar6000
08-23-2007, 10:53 PM
Somebody said that SR isn't counted against damaging spells but I don't know if thats true. Can anyone clarify?



That is correct. No direct-damage spell in DDO offers an SR check; which, for the record, is contrary to PnP rules.

transtemporal
08-23-2007, 11:54 PM
That is correct. No direct-damage spell in DDO offers an SR check; which, for the record, is contrary to PnP rules.

Thanks man. Whoa, that is hugely different to PnP! I take it "direct damage" is any spell that does damage; e.g. fireball, niacs, cone of cold?

Whats an example of an "indirect damage" spell? Firewall? CK?

Given that my sorc is mostly a nuker, I might forego one of the spell penetrations then.

Osharan_Tregarth
08-24-2007, 01:46 AM
Thanks man. Whoa, that is hugely different to PnP! I take it "direct damage" is any spell that does damage; e.g. fireball, niacs, cone of cold?

Whats an example of an "indirect damage" spell? Firewall? CK?

Given that my sorc is mostly a nuker, I might forego one of the spell penetrations then.


Firewall: Direct damage. Does XXX number of hp damage as a primary spell effect.

CK: Not direct damage. Kills things by poisoning them and reducing their con.

Finger of Death: Not direct damage. Primary effect is to kill something, and only does damage on a failed save.

Otto's, hold monster, etc... Not direct damage.

Aspenor has some pretty decent sorcerer guides going in the sorcerer section of the forums. If you haven't seen em yet, take a look. There's a lot of decent discussion going on there.

Locathus
08-24-2007, 09:45 PM
Also, you might need to tailor your spell against the creature to have the highest chance of making it stick. Will save spells against grunts, fort save spells against wiz/sorc, reflex against anyone but rogues.

I just wanted to emphasize this point - I don't think some people pay nearly enough attention to this.

For example, if you target a cleric-type mob, with something that requires a will save (PK, for instance), you will likely fail very often because they have high base Will saves and high Wisdoms. Don't waste your spell points - target them with Reflex saves (Web) or Fortitude saves (FoD, FtS).

By the same token, don't waste time trying to FoD the Hill Giant - they tend to have good Fortitude saves. Hit him with a Will save and you'll get to laugh at how pathetic he is.

If your spells are getting resisted, try a spell with a different type of save. Correct spell selection is one of the best ways to tell a good arcane player from a poor one.

.

Casta
08-25-2007, 01:15 PM
Sr dose stop some direct damage spells like niacs and scorching ray, I haven't used them in a while but I think it dose at least.

Osharan_Tregarth
08-25-2007, 05:01 PM
Sr dose stop some direct damage spells like niacs and scorching ray, I haven't used them in a while but I think it dose at least.

No. Niacs gets a savings throw. That's why it works at low levels(when everything fails their saves).

transtemporal
08-26-2007, 07:46 PM
Something weird going on there, chewed up the first post big time. :o

transtemporal
08-26-2007, 07:54 PM
Firewall: Direct damage. Does XXX number of hp damage as a primary spell effect.
CK: Not direct damage. Kills things by poisoning them and reducing their con.
Finger of Death: Not direct damage. Primary effect is to kill something, and only does damage on a failed save.
Otto's, hold monster, etc... Not direct damage.

Aspenor has some pretty decent sorcerer guides going in the sorcerer section of the forums. If you haven't seen em yet, take a look. There's a lot of decent discussion going on there.

Thanks Osharan, good to know. So basically Spell Resistable spells are anything that doesn't cause hit point damage directly. I'll check out Aspenor's guides, thanks for that.


I just wanted to emphasize this point - I don't think some people pay nearly enough attention to this.

For example, if you target a cleric-type mob, with something that requires a will save (PK, for instance), you will likely fail very often because they have high base Will saves and high Wisdoms. Don't waste your spell points - target them with Reflex saves (Web) or Fortitude saves (FoD, FtS).

By the same token, don't waste time trying to FoD the Hill Giant - they tend to have good Fortitude saves. Hit him with a Will save and you'll get to laugh at how pathetic he is.

If your spells are getting resisted, try a spell with a different type of save. Correct spell selection is one of the best ways to tell a good arcane player from a poor one.

Totally agree Locathus (except with the cleric - clerics have both good will and good fort saves, so its reflex for them), however sometimes its difficult to guess what kind of saves a creature has. "Bugbear Shaman/Witchdoctor/Cleric" is easy but what kind of saves does a mephit have? A fire elemental? A beholder?

The following table summarises the base saves a creature type has (from PnP). Three important notes:
A "good" save progresses at 2 per 3HD/Levels, a "normal" save progresses at 1 per 3 HD/levels (CR is a very rough indicator of HD, especially in this game but its better than nothing);
A creature gets normal save prgression if it doesn't have a good save (if it has a dash, it means it has no good saves, however see the notes below the tables);
If a monster has class levels, it improves according to the class, not the monster type.

Monster saves by type
Type Good Saving Throws
Aberration: Will
Animal: Fort, Ref (and sometimes Will)
Construct: —
Dragon: Fort, Ref, Will
Elemental: Ref (Air, Fire), or Fort (Earth, Water)
Fey: Ref, Will
Giant: Fort
Humanoid: Varies (any one)
Magical beast: Fort, Ref
Monstrous humanoid: Ref, Will
Ooze: —
Outsider: Fort, Ref, Will
Plant: Fort
Undead: Will
Vermin: Fort

Class saves by type
Type Good Saving Throws
Barbarian: Fort
Bard: Ref, Will
Cleric: Fort, Will
Druid: Fort, Will (when the class shows up)
Fighter: Fort
Monk: Fort, Ref, Will (when the class shows up)
Paladin: Fort
Ranger: Fort, Ref
Rogue: Ref
Sorcerer: Will
Wizard: Will

Immunity notes
In addition, some creatures are naturally immune to certain types of spells, so don't waste sp casting them.

Constructs:
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless)
Dragons:
Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
Elementals: Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.
Oozes:
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight.
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.
Plants:
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.
Undead:
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).

Cheers,
transtemporal

bummerman
08-28-2007, 07:10 PM
Sr dose stop some direct damage spells like niacs and scorching ray, I haven't used them in a while but I think it dose at least.

untrue scorching ray cannot be resisted ,unsure about niacs tho,my sorc has all fire/cold enhancments ,superior potency 6 ,superior arcane lore ,max and emp , and does avrage 575 to 725 critt damg in one shot, and hsa never been resisted ever!

Locathus
08-28-2007, 10:14 PM
Totally agree Locathus (except with the cleric - clerics have both good will and good fort saves, so its reflex for them), however sometimes its difficult to guess what kind of saves a creature has. "Bugbear Shaman/Witchdoctor/Cleric" is easy but what kind of saves does a mephit have? A fire elemental? A beholder?

You are correct on the cleric saves. I do find that the NPC Clerics generally have relatively low Fort saves - probably due to low Con scores - but targeting the Reflex saves definitely makes more sense.

BTW, excellent list - nice to have that in one place.
.