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Morvant
08-23-2007, 02:09 PM
I recently picked up DDO as I wanted a DnD fix, and my PnP group hasnt played in a long long time.

I have been having quite a lot of fun. I love the dungeons and how well crafted they are.

I have been playing a Duel Wield Warrior, and not having that much time to play I am only level 3. Also it didnt help that I rerolled him like 5 times. He is pretty badass, but feels very much like a 1 trick pony. I can swing swords. Also, I have never been a fan of "tanking", so I didnt want to go that route. I have always loved Rogues in DnD, and I would like to play one here. Now, here is my problem.

Right now I have 100 favor on my warrior. Should I just stick it out on him to get 400 for Drow, or should I go with a Elf rogue. It seems that Drow stats are just to good to pass up, and humans just would have to few stats with a 28 point build.

What I was looking for is a pure rogue, no multiclassing, that can do most of the fun rogue stuff, and also be pretty good damage. I like the pure rogue build listed below, but like I said, I dont have drow or 32 point builds yet.

Is there any reason to take Elf over Drow that I am missing, or is Drow just superior in every way?

Thanks for any advice you guys could give me.

Montrose
08-23-2007, 02:15 PM
I recently picked up DDO as I wanted a DnD fix, and my PnP group hasnt played in a long long time.

I have been having quite a lot of fun. I love the dungeons and how well crafted they are.

I have been playing a Duel Wield Warrior, and not having that much time to play I am only level 3. Also it didnt help that I rerolled him like 5 times. He is pretty badass, but feels very much like a 1 trick pony. I can swing swords. Also, I have never been a fan of "tanking", so I didnt want to go that route. I have always loved Rogues in DnD, and I would like to play one here. Now, here is my problem.

Right now I have 100 favor on my warrior. Should I just stick it out on him to get 400 for Drow, or should I go with a Elf rogue. It seems that Drow stats are just to good to pass up, and humans just would have to few stats with a 28 point build.

What I was looking for is a pure rogue, no multiclassing, that can do most of the fun rogue stuff, and also be pretty good damage. I like the pure rogue build listed below, but like I said, I dont have drow or 32 point builds yet.

Is there any reason to take Elf over Drow that I am missing, or is Drow just superior in every way?

Thanks for any advice you guys could give me.

If you are concentrating solely on favor, you can get to 400 in a relatively short timeframe (In 10 hours or less of gamplay, I would think). If you build a cleric you'll get there pretty fast. :)

Given that, waiting until you have 400 favor would seem like a decent idea.

Roguewiz
08-23-2007, 02:37 PM
I recently picked up DDO as I wanted a DnD fix, and my PnP group hasnt played in a long long time.

I have been having quite a lot of fun. I love the dungeons and how well crafted they are.

I have been playing a Duel Wield Warrior, and not having that much time to play I am only level 3. Also it didnt help that I rerolled him like 5 times. He is pretty badass, but feels very much like a 1 trick pony. I can swing swords. Also, I have never been a fan of "tanking", so I didnt want to go that route. I have always loved Rogues in DnD, and I would like to play one here. Now, here is my problem.

Right now I have 100 favor on my warrior. Should I just stick it out on him to get 400 for Drow, or should I go with a Elf rogue. It seems that Drow stats are just to good to pass up, and humans just would have to few stats with a 28 point build.

What I was looking for is a pure rogue, no multiclassing, that can do most of the fun rogue stuff, and also be pretty good damage. I like the pure rogue build listed below, but like I said, I dont have drow or 32 point builds yet.

Is there any reason to take Elf over Drow that I am missing, or is Drow just superior in every way?

Thanks for any advice you guys could give me.

I'd hold off re-rolling until you get Drow unlocked. They make great Rogues (Dex, Int, and Cha! Can't go wrong there). Also, since most Rogues are finesse, Drow have Rapiers and Shortswords as racial weapons (compared to Elves and their Longswords/Rapiers)

Are you totally opposed to multiclassing? If not, check out my Rogue'adin build (or Second Rate if you were crazy enough to go Warforged :P )

The Deathdealer build is also nice (for another multi-class)

As a Drow Purist Rogue, I'd do my stats like this: (Finesse of course)
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 10
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 14

If you don't want your Cha that high, put the points into CON. Also, eat a +1 Dex Tome, if you happen to get one, by 9th level (so you can get into ImpTWF). Or, use your level 4 stat increase in dex. After that, put them into CON (more HP, can't go wrong)

Ilontu
08-23-2007, 04:14 PM
Drow make too good of a rogue to pass up. They are also hard to pass up for sorcerers and bards.

The only thing the normal has over the drow that I can think of is some enhancements with the longbow and longsword. I made an Elven Ranger (bow specialized) with a normal Elf and have no complaints.

Roguewiz
08-23-2007, 04:43 PM
Drow make too good of a rogue to pass up. They are also hard to pass up for sorcerers and bards.

The only thing the normal has over the drow that I can think of is some enhancements with the longbow and longsword. I made an Elven Ranger (bow specialized) with a normal Elf and have no complaints.

Drow have simliar, just for Rapier/Shortsword and Shuriken (although I don't see the point in the Shuriken enhancement :confused: )

binnsr
08-23-2007, 05:07 PM
Drow have simliar, just for Rapier/Shortsword and Shuriken (although I don't see the point in the Shuriken enhancement :confused: )
my pally carries the snowstar and hasn't looked back .. i suppose it's good for that at least.. :D

Morvant
08-23-2007, 05:15 PM
As a Drow Purist Rogue, I'd do my stats like this: (Finesse of course)
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 10
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 14


What about dropping str or cha to 10 (or both to 12) and going with dex 18? From what I know of rogues they get most of their damage from sneak attack, so str bonus doesnt really matter.

Shamguard
08-23-2007, 06:58 PM
Drow without a doubt is the best rogue race in DDO.

With that said, you can play a very sucessful rogue with a 28 point build and of any of the base races. I should know I've tried most of the combinations.

With a 28 point build what are you options?
Halfling: +2 DEX -2 STR, bonuses to your hide and AC. Big negitive is the reduced carrying capacity. (just like PnP) Shamgard is a level 14 rogue who started with a 6 STR. He hasn't been easy to play but he has been very successful.
Elf: +2 DEX -2 CON, bonuses to search and extra search and spot enancements. Negitive low hit points from the CON hit. Still makes IMO the 2nd best rogue race in DDO.
Human: Extra Feat and Extra Skill Point per level. With some of the enhancements can make a very good rogue character. Personaly I think humans make better thugs than rogues. (but that is just me)
Dwarf: +2 CON -2 CHA. I don't play dwarves so I'll keep my comments to myself. They do make sturdy thugs though.
WF: +2 CON -2 WIS -2 CHA. Some nice immunities but to many minus stats for me.

One other thing to look at if you are just looking for character flavor is the dragonmarks. They are meh abilities for the most part but can be useful if applied correctly. Of course dragonmarks are limited to Halfling, Humans, Elves, and Dwarf. The elven mark of shadows can be a nice aid to a stealty rogue.

My best sugestion is pick a race build a rogue like you would in PnP and play it through a the beginner dungeons and see how it wroks for you. Try out a couple of different builds. You should find by 5th or 6th level where you want to go with your rogue. If the current character isn't working out build another and delete this one. Just be sure to mail your new character all your stuff first.:cool:

This game is not a race just like PnP DnD it is open ended and really has no "victory conditions". Have fun play the game and see what kind of character you develop.

JelloMold
08-23-2007, 07:08 PM
What about dropping str or cha to 10 (or both to 12) and going with dex 18? From what I know of rogues they get most of their damage from sneak attack, so str bonus doesnt really matter.

With weapon finesse your to hit is based on your DEX bonus, but your damage is still based off STR. With all that said, you are right, the effects on your weapon (bane, elemental damage, good/holy etc.) and your sneak damage will be most of the damage you deal. As you get higher up in levels you can also start using stat damagers (level 6 I think). Taking out a monster by dropping his CON, or making his hits hurt less by wiping his STR can make you a party favorite. The problem here with having a low STR is you still must bypass damage reduction on your initial hit for the effect to occur. If you don't do "real" damage your fancy weapons will not pop their effects. You still get the other damage however.

binnsr
08-23-2007, 07:13 PM
The problem here with having a low STR is you still must bypass damage reduction on your initial hit for the effect to occur. If you don't do "real" damage your fancy weapons will not pop their effects. You still get the other damage however.
If one were to make a low str rogue (*guilty*), transmuting of whatever weapons can become your friend :)

Shamguard
08-23-2007, 08:02 PM
With weapon finesse your to hit is based on your DEX bonus, but your damage is still based off STR. With all that said, you are right, the effects on your weapon (bane, elemental damage, good/holy etc.) and your sneak damage will be most of the damage you deal. As you get higher up in levels you can also start using stat damagers (level 6 I think). Taking out a monster by dropping his CON, or making his hits hurt less by wiping his STR can make you a party favorite. The problem here with having a low STR is you still must bypass damage reduction on your initial hit for the effect to occur. If you don't do "real" damage your fancy weapons will not pop their effects. You still get the other damage however.

Also remember sneak attack damage does count towards overcoming DR. Of course this doesn't help against undead or constructs, which have always been the bane of rogues everywhere.

Roguewiz
08-24-2007, 08:51 AM
What about dropping str or cha to 10 (or both to 12) and going with dex 18? From what I know of rogues they get most of their damage from sneak attack, so str bonus doesnt really matter.

True, however, you can still obtain a 30 dex with a 16 starting (assuming you come across a +2 tome). Going any higher base, you are paying a premium on points. The points are best used elsewhere IMO. Higher strength means you do more damage to things that can't be sneak attacked, like undead, compared what you would do with low strength.

16 Starting
+1 Level Raise
+5 Enhancements
+2 Tome
+6 Item
30 Dex

Sydril
08-24-2007, 10:33 AM
Drow would definitely be the best way to go for a twf build, especially with the rapier / short sword enhancements.

Don't scrimp on your HP. Make sure you get your con to at least a 12. For a character that only gets 6 hp per level you definitely want to work all of your "not dying" options.

I rolled a pure drow rogue with the following stats last year and was very pleased with how he turned out.

12 (a little boost to damage and carry capacity)
16 (you'll get it plenty high eventually no need to waste points further than 16)
12 (HP HP HP)
16 (tons of skills - disable and search bonus)
8 (with cheap spot enhancements and drow SR you can dump this stat fairly comfortably)
16 (great for bluff / umd)

Feats
1 TWF
3 Finesse
6 Toughness
9 Improved TWF
12 Improved Critical Pierce


mix or match to taste but something like that will serve a pure rogue well.

Morvant
08-24-2007, 01:17 PM
This game is not a race just like PnP DnD it is open ended and really has no "victory conditions". Have fun play the game and see what kind of character you develop.

I fully understand this, but the powergamer in me would ***** constantly if I didnt pick the best stats to start with.

Thanks for all the advice guys.

Now another quick question: How in demand are rogues in higher levels? I was in a few groups with my Warrior yesterday, and didnt see any rogues. Also, the groups just pretty much bllitzd through all the quests, they didnt even stop long enough for a rogue to disarm a trap if we had had one.
Do rogues get invites easily at later levels and do they become a bit more powerful? I had a level 3 rogue in beta, and it felt like I was made of paper, with limp noodles for weapons.

Vengenance
08-24-2007, 02:12 PM
Demand at later levels...well I have a lvl 14 rogue and I never have to much of a hard time finding a group, but since I play mostly with my guild that may be a little biased. A well built rogue can do tremendous DPS at end game with sneak attack damage and still be able to disable/open 99% of the traps and locks in the game. Drow make great rogues so if you can wait, then I'd wait. A 13 Rogue/1 Ranger is an excellent combo if you want to multi-class a little bit as it gives free use of cure wands, access to better weapons, a favored enemy and a few other cool things w/o losing any roguish abilities. Aspenor has a good rogue build somewhere on the forums, try to locate that and check it out.

Roguewiz
08-24-2007, 02:29 PM
I fully understand this, but the powergamer in me would ***** constantly if I didnt pick the best stats to start with.

Thanks for all the advice guys.

Now another quick question: How in demand are rogues in higher levels? I was in a few groups with my Warrior yesterday, and didnt see any rogues. Also, the groups just pretty much bllitzd through all the quests, they didnt even stop long enough for a rogue to disarm a trap if we had had one.
Do rogues get invites easily at later levels and do they become a bit more powerful? I had a level 3 rogue in beta, and it felt like I was made of paper, with limp noodles for weapons.

Certain quests almost "require" Rogues. But those are few and far between. Crucible totally requires a high level Rogue IMO (at least on Elite ;) )

I personally have no problems finding groups. Most people understand the necessisty that some traps, while avoidable, will cause fatalities. My usual Cleric just about refuses to run through any trap on Elite Content :D

Vengenance
08-24-2007, 03:40 PM
Certain quests almost "require" Rogues. But those are few and far between. Crucible totally requires a high level Rogue IMO (at least on Elite ;) )

I personally have no problems finding groups. Most people understand the necessisty that some traps, while avoidable, will cause fatalities. My usual Cleric just about refuses to run through any trap on Elite Content :D

No it doesn't, we run it all the time w/o one. :D A ranger or even mage w/good "nintendo" skills will suffice. Even my ftr has made the swim and passed the test of cunning.

Rameses
08-24-2007, 04:08 PM
For a truely well rounded non-min/max'd rogue try...

god I can't believe I am saying this...

Drow with these starting stats...
Str 10
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 10

with just standard +5 items (which are easy to find and if you are lucky a couple +1 tomes/not unheard of) you can have these stats also taking in mind level increases and racial bonuses.

Str 16 (10 base +5 item +1 tome)
Dex 30 (17 base +5 item +3 racial +3 level +2 class)
Con 20 (14 base +5 item +1 tome)
Int 22 (16 base +5 item +1 level)
Wis 16 (10 base +5 item +1 tome)
Cha 15 (10 base +5 item)

items are interchangable and easy to keep track of.

hope this helps

Rameses
08-24-2007, 04:11 PM
No it doesn't, we run it all the time w/o one. :D A ranger or even mage w/good "nintendo" skills will suffice. Even my ftr has made the swim and passed the test of cunning.

My "nintendo" skillz are terrible... but I always do it with my Wiz.

Aspenor
08-24-2007, 04:21 PM
Demand at later levels...well I have a lvl 14 rogue and I never have to much of a hard time finding a group, but since I play mostly with my guild that may be a little biased. A well built rogue can do tremendous DPS at end game with sneak attack damage and still be able to disable/open 99% of the traps and locks in the game. Drow make great rogues so if you can wait, then I'd wait. A 13 Rogue/1 Ranger is an excellent combo if you want to multi-class a little bit as it gives free use of cure wands, access to better weapons, a favored enemy and a few other cool things w/o losing any roguish abilities. Aspenor has a good rogue build somewhere on the forums, try to locate that and check it out.

My "How I would Build A Rogue: 4.0" thread was deleted in the Great Purge of 2007. I'll work on a re-publish. I'll probably change some things for mod 5. Aerren has reobtained superiority.

Morvant
08-24-2007, 04:39 PM
Str 16 (10 base +5 item +1 tome)
Dex 30 (17 base +5 item +3 racial +3 level +2 class)
Con 20 (14 base +5 item +1 tome)
Int 22 (16 base +5 item +1 level)
Wis 16 (10 base +5 item +1 tome)
Cha 15 (10 base +5 item)

hope this helps

I like this build a lot. Now my problem is unlocking Drow. I just cant wait to roll my Rogue.

Feats would probably be as listed above. I was thinking about not going TWF. This could free up 2 feats. Would this be an option if I wanted to DPS as well as be "Trap*****" or is TWF just to good to pass up for combat?

I am hoping to get high Tumble and Jump, as I have always played my rogue in PnP that way. The only thing I dont get in this build is Spring Attack would seems like it would be good. Then again, with a super high Dex and Weapon Finess, will that -4 even matter?

Thanks so much. You guys have all been very helpful.

binnsr
08-24-2007, 04:43 PM
I like this build a lot. Now my problem is unlocking Drow. I just cant wait to roll my Rogue.

If your sole goal with your current character is to simply unlock drow before you reroll, you can get into some of the favor runs that are listed in the LFM panel .. they'll quite often take folks who are power-favoring for no XP and you can get to 400 favor quite quickly that way.

Rameses
08-24-2007, 05:01 PM
If your sole goal with your current character is to simply unlock drow before you reroll, you can get into some of the favor runs that are listed in the LFM panel .. they'll quite often take folks who are power-favoring for no XP and you can get to 400 favor quite quickly that way.

QFT.

bandyman1
08-24-2007, 05:09 PM
Str 16 (10 base +5 item +1 tome)
Dex 30 (17 base +5 item +3 racial +3 level +2 class)
Con 20 (14 base +5 item +1 tome)
Int 22 (16 base +5 item +1 level)
Wis 16 (10 base +5 item +1 tome)
Cha 15 (10 base +5 item)
DAMN YOU RAMS!!!! That's MY Sharwyn build! Well, except my Chr is 16 ( +6 item ) :D .

Seriously Morvant...this build is very viable. High 50s in all my core abilities ( DD, OL, Search, Spot ) and a 33 UMD self-buffed. Be careful with your feat and enhancement selection and you'll end up with a very versitile and solid build.

binnsr
08-24-2007, 05:11 PM
DAMN YOU RAMS!!!! That's MY Sharwyn build! Well, except my Chr is 16 ( +6 item ) :D .

Seriously Morvant...this build is very viable. High 50s in all my core abilities ( DD, OL, Search, Spot ) and a 33 UMD self-buffed. Be careful with your feat and enhancement selection and you'll end up with a very versitile and solid build.
Not trying to bash here, but why would you ever want/need a high 50's spot? The high-water mark for spot is currently 36, I think.. With that in mind, I dropped all but rogue spot I and am using a +10 item (with blindness ward) that I picked up cheap on the AH and still surpass that mark..

bandyman1
08-24-2007, 05:14 PM
Not trying to bash here, but why would you ever want/need a high 50's spot? The high-water mark for spot is currently 36, I think.. With that in mind, I dropped all but rogue spot I and am using a +10 item (with blindness ward) that I picked up cheap on the AH and still surpass that mark..

It's not that I need it, but she's got it none the less. When the new mod drops, if there's a crazy high DC to worry about like in the last one, I'll have it covered.

There honestly wasn't much else enhancement wise I wanted on my rogue.
The sneak att training didn't really appeal to me, as I'm a sword and board rogue and it's not that great of a damage boost, and subtle backstabber is a waste if you have good agro management skills anyway.

Rameses
08-24-2007, 05:18 PM
the high spot is probably just that way purely by investing in it normally. I'd doubt that extra investment (feat-wise) was made.

bandyman1
08-24-2007, 05:20 PM
the high spot is probably just that way purely by investing in it normally. I'd doubt that extra investment (feat-wise) was made.

Yeah...I didn't drop any feats into it. As a matter of fact, I didn't take a single skill focus. Shar has weapon finesse, imp. crit.-piercing, and spring att. chain.

Morvant
08-27-2007, 12:47 PM
If your sole goal with your current character is to simply unlock drow before you reroll, you can get into some of the favor runs that are listed in the LFM panel .. they'll quite often take folks who are power-favoring for no XP and you can get to 400 favor quite quickly that way.

So, a little update. Im now at 270 favor. But its killing me. Seems to be going so slowly now. I got in one high level Favor group like you suggested, but not many groups want to drag along a level 4 (almost 5).

Any one on the Aggro server planning on running any favor groups a lowbie could get in to any time soon?