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Dingo123
08-23-2007, 06:28 AM
As many people ahve said this game isn't based on minmaxing at all, and people who don't minmax can be exceptionally effective with only casual tools when fighting on normal. This according to a developer...

SOOO...

I'd like to see a build that would have a relatively even split between the three. A 5/5/4, or a 4/4/6 if you will.

Now, here's the tricky part... they must adequately perform at least one of their class functions in a group, while still being able to perform their other functions (For example, putting him in adamantine full plate won't jive because you become a lousy caster and cannot evade).

Finally, it must be someone YOU would invite on a team to perform that function.


Let's see if you Forum Masters can devise a build that would be adequate enough....

EDIT: No Drow. Drow would likely become the default race EVERYONE would choose for this... and since we're starting out Fresh and Casual... yeah, no extra leg up for you homes.

Onubis
08-23-2007, 06:52 AM
28point or 32 point build?

Dingo123
08-23-2007, 06:56 AM
28point or 32 point build?

We're only playing on normal, remember? Keep that in mind when you assign gear.

Onubis
08-23-2007, 06:59 AM
We're only playing on normal, remember? Keep that in mind when you assign gear.

got the good old pen and some paper infront of me, not thinking of gear yet, just where im gonna put my points and how many. I have access to 32 point builds is that allowed? or just 28 points assuming this build is for a casual gamer?

Dingo123
08-23-2007, 07:07 AM
got the good old pen and some paper infront of me, not thinking of gear yet, just where im gonna put my points and how many. I have access to 32 point builds is that allowed? or just 28 points assuming this build is for a casual gamer?

Only 28 builds (You can never rack up enough favor to get 32 pt builds with a casual character).

You can likely get a Drow... but that's WAY too easy.

I'm going to put that in the OP.

No Drow.

Dingo123
08-23-2007, 07:09 AM
got the good old pen and some paper infront of me, not thinking of gear yet, just where im gonna put my points and how many. I have access to 32 point builds is that allowed? or just 28 points assuming this build is for a casual gamer?

Further note, just in case. This must be a DDO based character... as in something I could run out and create letter for letter once I read it on here.

Kalanth
08-23-2007, 07:09 AM
Does it have to be a Fighter / Wizard / Rogue? I have a Fighter 4 / Wizard 10 in play and a Paladin 3 / Fighter 4 / Wizard 7 in the works.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 14 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(4 Fighter \ 5 Rogue \ 5 Wizard)
Hit Points: 124
Spell Points: 322
BAB: 9\9\14
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 9
Will: 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 14 16
Dexterity 14 17
Constitution 10 12
Intelligence 16 16
Wisdom 12 12
Charisma 6 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14)
Balance 2 1
Bluff 2 2
Concentration 0 1
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device 7 22
Haggle 2 7
Heal 1 1
Hide 6 7
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump 2 1
Listen 1 1
Move Silently 6 7
Open Lock 6 22
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 7 17
Search 7 22
Spot 5 20
Swim 2 -1
Tumble 6 5
Use Magic Device 2 2

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Mithral Body

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise

Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell

Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility

Level 5 (Wizard)

Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Wizard)

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons

Level 10 (Wizard)

Level 11 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximize I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery II
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Construct Thinking I
Enhancement: Warforged Construct Thinking II
Enhancement: Warforged Damage Reduction I
Enhancement: Warforged Damage Reduction II
Enhancement: Warforged Damage Reduction III
Enhancement: Warforged Hardiness I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor II
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor III

Dingo123
08-23-2007, 07:11 AM
Does it have to be a Fighter / Wizard / Rogue? I have a Fighter 4 / Wizard 10 in play and a Paladin 3 / Fighter 4 / Wizard 7 in the works.


All three classes (Fighter/Wizard/Rogue, relatively even split). No Drow. 28 Point build. Has to be adequately capable of holding their own in a team in at least one of the three class functions (Tank, Caster, or Expert).

Onubis
08-23-2007, 07:13 AM
ok starting stats ive come up with are
dwarf
str 12(28point) 14(32point)
dex16
con12(28point) 14(32point)
wis 10
int 16
cha 6

only cha is min'd, even in my pnp i could careless about my cha if im not playing a certain style in my head.

now im going with a 5wiz/5rog/4ftr build
weapon finesse

could do some cc'ing, search and disble traps, and would do some decent dmg in a fight
focus in 1 type of weapon (ie: slashing)
dodge
toughness

nimble fingers, skill focus dd
heighten spell

could do some cc, search and disbale traps and do some decent dmg in a fight.

oronisi
08-23-2007, 07:39 AM
As many people ahve said this game isn't based on minmaxing at all, and people who don't minmax can be exceptionally effective with only casual tools when fighting on normal. This according to a developer...

SOOO...

I'd like to see a build that would have a relatively even split between the three. A 5/5/4, or a 4/4/6 if you will.

Now, here's the tricky part... they must adequately perform at least one of their class functions in a group, while still being able to perform their other functions (For example, putting him in adamantine full plate won't jive because you become a lousy caster and cannot evade).

Finally, it must be someone YOU would invite on a team to perform that function.


Let's see if you Forum Masters can devise a build that would be adequate enough....

EDIT: No Drow. Drow would likely become the default race EVERYONE would choose for this... and since we're starting out Fresh and Casual... yeah, no extra leg up for you homes.

Easy, make a rogue. Make a rogue that just happens to have 4 lvls of fighter, and 5 lvls of wizard. You'd get 3rd level spells to help out (haste, blur, wand usage). Just focus on Int, dex, and skills. You should be able to do all rogue-things ingame, minus the pesky cabal one, if you build right. Rogue at 1st level, and rogue at last level.

The rest is all free. for you to chose. I'd go with human, as they are flexible and would mesh well with the build.

EinarMal
08-23-2007, 09:18 AM
Goal:
The basic idea is an elite level rogue that fights very well. The wizard levels allow for buffs like blur/displacement/haste/jump. So this guy buffs himself, fights well, can tank, has evasion and elite rogue skills.

At level 15 take another fighter level for GTWF and Power Attack. You will also be able to hit 28 strength with another level up, and a +2 fighter enhcancement bonus to strength.

RogueMage
(Dwarf Male Neutral Good Fighter 5/Rogue 4/Wizard 5)

Stats:
Str 16 (26 =16 +3 Levels +1 Enh +6 Item)
Dex 16 (22 =16 +1 Tome + 5 Item)
Con 12 (18 =12 +2 Enh +4 Item)
Int 14 (20 =14 +1 Enh +5 Item
Wis 8 (12 =8 +4 Spell)
Cha 6 (10 =6 +4 Item)

Level Progression:
1-Rogue
2 thru 4-Fighter
5 thru 6-Rogue
7-Fighter
8 thru 12-Wizard
13-Fighter
14-Rogue

Skills All Maxed (Search/Disable on non-Rogue Level Ups:
UMD
Search
Disable
Open Lock (9)

Feats:
1-Toughness
3-(FB) WF Slashing
3-Luck of Heroes
4-(FB) TWF
6-Stunning Blow
7-(FB)ITWF
9-(WB) Extend
9-WS Slashing
12-(WB)Maximize (Kind of useless)
12-IC Slashing

HP:
94(Levels) +20(Heroic) +10(Draconic) +30(GFL) +56(Con) +16(Toughness) +50(Dwarf Toughness IV) = 276

SP:
230 (Wizard5) + 100 (Magi) + 50(EOS) +70(Int) = 450

Enhancements:
Fighter Strength I
Wizard Intelligence I
Rogue Skills Boost II
Dwarven Axe Damage II
Dwarven Constitution II
Dwarven Axe Attack II
Rogue Sneak Attack Damage II
Dwarven Toughness IV
Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Disable Device II
Dwarven Tactics II

Saves (Fort/Reflex/Will):
Base: 6/6/6
Attribute Bonus: 4/6/1
Resistance +4: 4/4/4
GH: 4/4/4
LOH: 1/1/1
19/21/16

To Hit:
BAB 10
Str 8
Weapon 5
GH 4
Haste 1
Weapon Focus 1
Racial 2
TWF -2
+29

Damage:
Weapon 5
Str 8
Racial 2
Spec 2
+17/13

Level 14 Skills:
Search:
17(Ranks) +5(Int) +4(GH) +2(Dwarf) +3(Boost) +13(Item) = 44

Disable:
17(Ranks) +5(Int) +4(GH) +3(Boost) +13(Item) +7(Tools) +2(Enh)= 51

Open Lock:
9(Ranks) +6(Dex) +4(GH) +3(Boost) +13(Item) +7(Tools) = 42

UMD:
17(Ranks) +4(GH) +3(Cartouche) +3(Boost) +1( Rabbit Luck)= 28

So you fight well with some extra sneak attack damage 2d6+4. You also have stunning blow which works very well with a weighted off hand weapon.

DC SB: 10 + 8(Str) + 2(Tactics) + 8(Weighted) = 29

smithers
08-23-2007, 09:56 AM
My suggestion: Rogue 2 / Wiz 12

You can do pretty well in combat without any fighter in you. I'd probably go Rogue2/Wiz 12. Decide whether you want to get up close (take weapon finesse) or stay back (consider repeating xbow) Precision is worth considering in either case since it's likely you're going to be doing stat damage and debuffs instead of DPS. I have a lvl 14 Drow wizard who gets a lot of kills with his keen puncturing rapier. I spec'd him as pure caster but with all the crazy weapons around now he uses rapiers and repeating xbow. Anyways, there's no way that what you'll get from a few levels of fighter is going to equal what you'll lose in casting power. Since you're playing with friends you don't have to worry about clerics getting mad at you for being a fighting squishy, so go for it. Honestly with stoneskin, displacement, gr. hero etc. you can do pretty well.

Race
No bad choices here really:

Halflings get +1 to hit and AC, which is going to help you, and you also get racial dex enhancements.

Humans are nice and flexible; you'll end up with +1 int/dex enhancements, plus you'll have human verstility. Most people hate this since they made it a clicky, but for a multiclass rogue it's a great option.

Warforged would be fun, since it would make your character more unusual and you get the great ability to self-heal.

I'd just pick whatever race you like best, but I think Human is probably strongest here; Warforged if you plan on doing solo runs.

Skills
Obviously you want to to max out Search, Disable, Open Lock, and Concentration
Also want decent Spot and Balance. 1 pt into Tumble.
One benefit of Rogue is having UMD as a class skill, so I'd be hoping to max this out also; will allow you to use anything your party finds, and with boosts will allow you to rez the cleric later which is always fun :)

Weapons / Gear
Rapier may be your best melee choice. Consider taking repeater if you ever come across a good one (flaming bolts might be nice) I don't know if Rogues get Kukri, but that's also finessable with a good crit range.

Hold on to any Divine Power clickys you find, or buy some on the AH. It's a short buff, but worth hitting before going into combat. Gives you +6 str and the BAB of a full fighter. Better than Tensers since you can still cast :)

If you can find a bloodstone (seeker +6) it will make you much more effective in combat. Once you level up I'd hit the desert until I found one. Definitely one of the most useful pieces of gear for this kind of character.

Feats
As said, either Weapon Finesse or Repeater
Precision is a good chioce, assuming you are doing debuff and stat damage
Extend
Maximize

Spells
Hypno, Bull/Bear/Cat (early game), Blur, Scorching Ray, Web, Haste, Fireball, Firewall, Stoneskin, Hero, Gr. Hero, Solid Fog, Displacement, Cloudkill, Ennervation (no save) ...

Just keep in mind that your DC's are going to be a bit lower than normal so throwing around PK etc. is probably not the best casting style.

BTW, another thing worth considering would be Rogue 2 / Bard 12
Pretty similar, but trading some offensive casting for better combat. You'd be just as good at crowd control and buffing (or better) You'd probably suffer a bit as a rogue since you're going to have to move some points from Int to Cha but as a human I think you could still end up with pretty decent skills.

P.S. I know I violated the "Even split" requirement, but you also had a requirement that it be able to cover all three areas: combat/casting/rogue. I think the approach above covers all 3 areas well even though it's a 2 class build. I don't think 5 or 6 levels of caster are worth anything in the later levels. Your buffs aren't going to last, your resists are going to be weak, and your damage and DCs are going to be way too low. Oh, and your SP are going to suck. Honestly, even on normal, 6 levels of casting power are worth next to nothing once you're running around Gianthold etc. If you're really attached to the "even split" then go for it and have fun, but I'm afraid late-game you're going to be pretty disappointed with the outcome.

PaintHorseCowboy
08-23-2007, 10:10 AM
Why is this here?

This isn't a ddo development discussion or idea. It has no relevance what-so-ever to developing the game further or problem-solving a bug that has been discovered.

This is a character discussion from everything I can tell.

Next time put it in the character/race discussion areas which is an appropriate section for this sort of thing.

bandyman1
08-23-2007, 10:14 AM
Why is this here?

This isn't a ddo development discussion or idea. It has no relevance what-so-ever to developing the game further or problem-solving a bug that has been discovered.

This is a character discussion from everything I can tell.

Next time put it in the character/race discussion areas which is an appropriate section for this sort of thing.

I think you mised his point bro, and so did Smithers. He isn't really asking for a build. He is advocating his viewpoint that this game is geared for powergamers/min-maxers, based off the opposing viewpoints offered in another thread in THIS forum. The challenge was for someone to give him a build that would be effective in the high lvl game that was non-min/maxed.

smithers
08-23-2007, 10:19 AM
I think you mised his point bro, and so did Smithers. He isn't really asking for a build. He is advocating his viewpoint that this game is geared for powergamers/min-maxers, based off the opposing viewpoints offered in another thread in THIS forum. The challenge was for someone to give him a build that would be effective in the high lvl game that was non-min/maxed.


Well, he said "I'd like to see a build that would do this" so people suggested some builds. If we "missed his point" then he certainly made it unclear.

I agree it's in the wrong section (I found it on accident while searching for the "character planner" thread so I didn't even notice where it had been posted)

Snike
08-23-2007, 10:24 AM
Good luck. Looks painful to play.

EinarMal
08-23-2007, 10:26 AM
I think my TWF build would in the endgame be quite effective. You can disable traps on elite, have 300+ hit points, good saves, evasion, and solid DPS via TWF. You also have self cast extended haste/displacement/blur to further increase power and survivability. I actually think it would do quite well.

So I do think you can build a tri class character that can perform well but you have to plan it out very carefully. Not sure what that proves really.

Kalanth
08-23-2007, 10:33 AM
Well, he said "I'd like to see a build that would do this" so people suggested some builds. If we "missed his point" then he certainly made it unclear.

I agree it's in the wrong section (I found it on accident while searching for the "character planner" thread so I didn't even notice where it had been posted)

I also agree that is in the wrong section, and it will be moved eventually I am sure.

But he said he wanted a character that was 28 point buy that combined the three classes and stayed close to each other in total level, not a dual class that was more dominate in one than the other, as you suggested. Just pointing out the guide lines he already stated.

EinarMal
08-23-2007, 10:44 AM
I also agree that is in the wrong section, and it will be moved eventually I am sure.

But he said he wanted a character that was 28 point buy that combined the three classes and stayed close to each other in total level, not a dual class that was more dominate in one than the other, as you suggested. Just pointing out the guide lines he already stated.

Missed the 28 pt. part, I adjusted my build to fit in 28 points only and reduced item power a bit, might still get complaints on that though.

I think you sort of have it backwards though. To pull something like this off you need more gear not less. Why would someone build this as a new character. It is really easy to build an effective non-min/max character make a cleric. You get all the heal spells for free and with any reasonable starting stats will be welcome in any group.

Talon_Moonshadow
08-23-2007, 10:52 AM
My first and still main toon is a Rgr6/Rog3/Wiz5. He was an evolution in design and not preplanned at lvl 1. Also he was around when the lvl cap was 10 and I did not think it would go higher......plus a lot of things have changed in the game since I made him.

At anyrate he is extremely versitile and has something to offer in every situation......especially for smaller groups.

You could do something similar with a fighter.....6 lvls of fighter give you a lot of feats. Taking rogue at lvl 1 is best for the skill points.....having a high int with this toon will make him better as a rogue and a wizard.

With only 3 lvls of rogue, you will find the end game traps difficult though....I had Ranger skill points to draw on for my build, but yours will have less skill points unless you really max out Int.

With 5 lvls of Wiz, you can cast haste and displacement, and also use Stoneskin scrolls with a decent chance of success (but failing is annoying and expensive) The game was really fun for me when I could buy firewall scrolls!!

I find my build is fun, but the highest lvl content is a real challenge. My BAB and hitpoints are lacking and my reflex saves are not as good as pure rogues......plus I can't use the high lvl enhancements that make so many pure classes really good at what they do.

But I do find I'm usually the last man standing and I'm also one of the ost self sufficient builds out there.

Raithe
08-23-2007, 12:37 PM
I find my build is fun, but the highest lvl content is a real challenge.

Currently, the highest level content is challenging for everyone but casters (Sorcs/Wizzes/Clerics/Bards). I am reminded of this everytime I group with a casterless party (or one that only includes a healbot).



My BAB and hitpoints are lacking and my reflex saves are not as good as pure rogues......plus I can't use the high lvl enhancements that make so many pure classes really good at what they do.

Actually, being multiclassed usually gives you better saves. My rgr/rog/wiz has a 10 base reflex save - a pure rogue only has a 9. My bard/rogue has an 11. My rgr/rog/wiz has four fewer hitpoints than if he'd gone pure rogue. If he sees 2 more levels (which will be ranger), he'll have made up that difference. As for high-level enhancements, they are mostly a waste of action points. I could probably count the number of fourth tier enhancements I have on all my characters on 1 finger.



But I do find I'm usually the last man standing and I'm also one of the ost self sufficient builds out there.

Likewise. Having a high-survivability and multi-disciplined character in your party can bolster the weak spots and make the party stronger overall. Unfortunately, most of the DDO players are not strategic geniuses.

Shrazkil
08-23-2007, 12:39 PM
As many people ahve said this game isn't based on minmaxing at all, and people who don't minmax can be exceptionally effective with only casual tools when fighting on normal. This according to a developer...

SOOO...

I'd like to see a build that would have a relatively even split between the three. A 5/5/4, or a 4/4/6 if you will.

Now, here's the tricky part... they must adequately perform at least one of their class functions in a group, while still being able to perform their other functions (For example, putting him in adamantine full plate won't jive because you become a lousy caster and cannot evade).

Finally, it must be someone YOU would invite on a team to perform that function.


Let's see if you Forum Masters can devise a build that would be adequate enough....

EDIT: No Drow. Drow would likely become the default race EVERYONE would choose for this... and since we're starting out Fresh and Casual... yeah, no extra leg up for you homes.

While i would min/max the build alittle more, if you wanted a more even split i would say.


Level 14 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(2 Fighter / 3 Rogue / 9 Wizard)
Hit Points: 229
Spell Points: 576

BAB: 8/8/13
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 12
Will: 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 16 28 w/favor tome (unbuffed)
Dexterity 14 22 w/+1 tome
Constitution 16 24
Intelligence 16 24
Wisdom 6 10
Charisma 6 6

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: Mithral Body

Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell

Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 4 (Wizard)

Level 5 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise

Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Trip

Level 7 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell

Level 8 (Wizard)

Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 10 (Rogue)

Level 11 (Wizard)

Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow

Level 13 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Force I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor II
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II
Enhancement: Warforged Tactics I
Enhancement: Warforged Tactics II

Skills are variable, but capable of handling full rogue duties. This was a 32 point build, If you need 28 , lower con by 4.

Guildmaster_Kadish
08-23-2007, 01:49 PM
I'd suggest a Rogue 1/ Fighter 2/ Wizard 11.

This is a much more casting-oriented version of the build, that can do Tenser's or Divine Power (from a clickie) in order to fight.

Start with Rogue, then the wizard and fighter levels. Take all wizard for levels 15-20, for an end product of 17 Wizard (access to 9th level spells), 2 Fighter (Proficiencies, +1 Str Enhancement, Etc.), and 1 Rogue (UMD, Rogue Skills, Etc.).

Human 28 pt. Build:
Str. 16 +1 Enh. +1 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage = 26
Dex. 8 +6 Item = 14
Con. 10 +5 Item +1 Tome +2 Rage = 18
Int. 18 +3 Levels + 6 Item +4 Enh. + 1 Tome = 32 (34 with +3 tome)
Wis. 8 +4 = 12
Char. 8 +4 = 12

1: Rogue: Nimble Fingers, Skill Focus: UMD
2: Fighter: Combat Expertise
3: Wizard: Extend Spell, Mental Toughness
4: Fighter: +1 Int., Power Attack <---Eat a +1 Int Tome
5: Wizard:
6: Wizard: Maximize Spell
7: Wizard:
8: Wizard: +1 Int., Empower Spell
9: Wizard: Improved Mental Toughness
10: Wizard:
11: Wizard:
12: Wizard: +1 Int., Spell Focus: Enchantment/Illusion/Necromancy (Pick One)
13: Wizard: Heighten Spell
14: Wizard:

Skills: Max out Search, DD, UMD, and OL.

Hitpoints:
44 Wizard Base
20 Fighter Base
6 Rogue Base
56 Con Bonus
30 False Life
10 Draconic Vitality
20 Heroic Durability
186 Hitpoints

AC:
10 Base
11 Armor (Insulated Armor)
2 Dex
3 Natural Armor (Barkskin Potion)
5 Protection
2 Dodge
4 Shield
1 Haste
38 "Wizard Mode"

+5 CE
+1 (4 Natural Armor from Tenser's)
+2 (Real Shield vs. Spell)
46 Maximum Self-Buffed AC

With Displacement, that should be plenty for any Normal Setting Quest.

Attack Bonus (Tenser's):
14 BAB
8 Str
5 Weapon
1 Haste
4 GH
+32/+32/+37/+42
or, with PA or CE:
+27/+27/+32/+37

Damage Bonus (PA):
12 Str
10 PA
5 Weapon
+27 Damage

Search:
17 Ranks
11 Intelligence
11 Item
4 GH
1 Luck (Rabbit Gloves)
44 Search

DD:
17 Ranks
11 Intelligence
11 Item
4 GH
1 Luck
2 Feat
6 Tools
52 DD

OL:
17 Ranks
2 Dexterity
11 Item
4 GH
1 Luck
2 Feat
6 Tools
43 OL

UMD:
17 Ranks
1 Charisma
3 Item
4 GH
1 Luck
3 Feat
29 UMD

Saves:
F|R|W
6|5|7 Base
4|2|1 Stat Bonus
4|4|4 GH
1|1|1 Luck
0|1|0 Haste
4|4|4 Resistance Item
19 Fortitude
17 Reflex
17 Will

That's about all I've got to say. Feats could be switched around to accomodate improved trip, stunning blow, or toughness if any of those are personal preferences. You probably don't need Nimble Fingers or Skill Focus for most normal quests, they're just there for a little bonus if you want to fight something tougher.

One thing that this build absolutely needs is the Insulated Armor. If you don't have it, either your AC will stink or you'll have extremely high ASF. Fortunately, it isn't in high demand, so there shouldn't be much competition trying to get it.

Master Kadish

Dingo123
08-23-2007, 02:19 PM
I think you mised his point bro, and so did Smithers. He isn't really asking for a build. He is advocating his viewpoint that this game is geared for powergamers/min-maxers, based off the opposing viewpoints offered in another thread in THIS forum. The challenge was for someone to give him a build that would be effective in the high lvl game that was non-min/maxed.


You are correct. I handed a relatively simple challenge (A much harder one would be Sorc, Cleric, Ranger (A Wiz/Fig/Rogue has the search/disable to fallback on to find their place in a later team))... and even then people either ignored the rules, or even openly admitted that at later levels things would start to get seriously rough.

And this is from forumites who probably forget a great more about the game than most people know. That might be a stretch, but you get the idea.

Even minmaxxers start to struggle here.

EinarMal
08-23-2007, 02:21 PM
You are correct. I handed a relatively simple challenge (A much harder one would be Sorc, Cleric, Ranger (A Wiz/Fig/Rogue has the search/disable to fallback on to find their place in a later team))... and even then people either ignored the rules, or even openly admitted that at later levels things would start to get seriously rough.

And this is from forumites who probably forget a great more about the game than most people know. That might be a stretch, but you get the idea.

Even minmaxxers start to struggle here.

My updated build follows the rules and would be effective at end game as a rogue and a decent tank.

Kalanth
08-23-2007, 04:05 PM
You are correct. I handed a relatively simple challenge (A much harder one would be Sorc, Cleric, Ranger (A Wiz/Fig/Rogue has the search/disable to fallback on to find their place in a later team))... and even then people either ignored the rules, or even openly admitted that at later levels things would start to get seriously rough.

And this is from forumites who probably forget a great more about the game than most people know. That might be a stretch, but you get the idea.

Even minmaxxers start to struggle here.


It is a struggle, you are right, but it is a struggle even in PnP. Maybe not as much as it is in DDO, but there is still a distinct amount of difficulty involved in multiclassing three classes and going deep with them.

My Warforged Fighter 4 / Wizard 10 is built for ranged combat, and is a blast to play. In the high end content even he struggles at times. People want the best of the best in spells, but he uses the most commonly asked for and has success. So when I multiclass with a caster, I go for the most commonly asked for spells as a requirement. Thats why, if I was doing this build for real, it would be Rogue 3 / Fighter 4 / Wizard 7 so that I could cast Solid Fog and Firewall in the battles.

Multiclassing and being successful are strongly dependent on both a strong knowledge of the game mechanics and a capable player behind the keys. We are not talking an uber l337 machine, but you have to be better than the average charge through the traps and be the first to fight, first to die style player. The problem with multiclassing, more so than playing the character, is getting accepted into a group. My Fighter / Wizard is passed over more than not because he is not a pure caster. My Rogue / Barbarian is overlooked in DPS rolls because they "don't need another rogue." I have always said that the key to Multiclassing to have a single focus objective and to make all the classes work toward that objective (i.e. My fighter 4 / wizard 10 was to be built to use bows effectively. The 4 fighter levels provide the feats and boost in BAB to give Improved Critical while the Wizard levels are considered the primary role of the character).

QuantumFX
08-23-2007, 10:50 PM
Dingo123: What's the point of this thread? What are you trying to prove? It seems like you're airing some frustration over Eladrin's comments (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1306210&postcount=6) but don't have a real grasp of what's bugging you.

Is it easy to make bad characters in the d20 ruleset? Yes it is. This is a design "problem" created by WotC not Turbine. A great character requires more than tomes and raid gear and 32 point builds it requires forethought and planning. A Ranger/Sorc/Cleric would suck in either game. The d20 ruleset gives you ample amounts of rope to hang yourself with. But isn't that more exciting to you than the spoon feed nonsense that WoW delivers?

Min/Maxed builds are based on attention to what synergizes and what doesn't. This is why Turbine keeps encouraging players to make single class characters in the beginning. It gives a player a chance to experience what's needed and what's not. A single class character is more resistant to rules changes and bad design decisions.

Your inital challenge of a 28pt Fighter/Rogue/Wizard was a worthy challenge because it's something you would actually see in a tabletop P&P game. You mention that this combo only works because of the rogue skills. This type of build would only work in P&P for the same reason.

Now I'm going to add my build (because builds like this are fun!) I'm going to stray away from one of the objectives because I want this character to emulate the feel of a P&P build. I'm not taking 4 levels of fighter because I simply don't need the 2 extra levels. In P&P the split would be 2 Fighter/3 Rogue/5 Wizard/4 Arcane Trickster. In DDO it needs to be 2 Fighter/6 Rogue/6 Wizard.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 14 Neutral Good Elf Male
(2 Fighter \ 6 Rogue \ 6 Wizard)
Hit Points: 114
Spell Points: 305
BAB: 9\9\14
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 14
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 14)
Strength 14 15
Dexterity 18 25
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 14 16
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 8 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 14)
Balance 8 11
Bluff -1 -1
Concentration 1 1
Diplomacy 3 16
Disable Device 6 24
Haggle -1 -1
Heal -1 -1
Hide 8 11
Intimidate -1 -1
Jump 3 11
Listen -1 1
Move Silently 8 11
Open Lock 8 17
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 5
Search 6 31
Spot 3 20
Swim 2 2
Tumble 7 10
Use Magic Device 3 11

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Search

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Finesse

Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell

Level 4 (Wizard)

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility

Level 7 (Wizard)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack

Level 10 (Rogue)

Level 11 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Eschew Materials

Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Elf Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Perception II
Enhancement: Rogue Fire Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Way of the Mechanic I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I



Notice I haven't used any tomes and I don't assume +6 gear/raid gear in the stats below. I capped myself at +13 Race required gear and grindable items (Chaosguarde/Planar Gird).

Disable Device
+24 - Base
+13 - Item
+2 - Foxes
+4 - GH
+3 - Skill Boost
+1 - Luck
+7 - Tools
-----------------
+54

Open Lock
+17 Base
+13 Item
+3 +5 Gloves
+4 GH
+3 Skill Boost
+7 Tools
+1 Luck
------------------
+48

Search
+31 Base
+13 Item
+2 Foxes Cunning
+4 GH
+3 Skill Boost
+1 Luck
+1 Find Traps Scroll
-----------------
+55

Spot
+20 Base
+13 Spot Goggles
+4 GH
--------------------------
+38

UMD
+11 Base
+2 Eagle's Splendor
+4 GH
+3 Cartouche
+3 AB
--------------------
+23

AC
10 - Base
10 - 30 DEX
4 - +4 Armor robe (Desert or relic turn in.)
7 - +5 Heavy Shield
2 - Chaosguarde
3 - Mass SoF
3 - Barkskin pot
1 - Dodge
2 - active block
4 - mobility tumble
1 - haste
1 - luck
5 - Combat Expertise
--------------------
+53