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View Full Version : Range vs. Melee - what's to argue?



Fetchi
08-22-2007, 10:43 PM
Even if you made manyshot ALWAYS on and no "-" to-hit i still wouldnt come close to MOST tanks killcount. Heck, you could give me crit on 15-20X3 and the mobs are still fingered/pk'd from the mage, slayed/destructed from the cleric, vorpal'd/disrupted/smited/paralyzed/cursed from the tank faster than i can get 2 shots off - get real people.

Ithrani
08-22-2007, 10:44 PM
Even if you made manyshot ALWAYS on and no "-" to-hit i still wouldnt come close to MOST tanks killcount. Heck, you could give me crit on 15-20X3 and the mobs are still fingered/pk'd from the mage, slayed/destructed from the cleric, vorpal'd/disrupted/smited/paralyzed/cursed from the tank faster than i can get 2 shots off - get real people.

You do realize that this happens in PnP but not nearly as often due to no SP allowing for 800 PK's to be cast in one session.

Okita
08-22-2007, 10:49 PM
mm, maybe because people play at levels before clerics get destruct, before anyone can use vorpals, before mages get pk, etc...

maybe because rangers solo...

maybe because you've never played a ranger that could easily outkill everyone else in the party...

maybe because you don't play a ranged character you don't really understand ranged players frustrations...

PaintHorseCowboy
08-23-2007, 01:19 AM
Or...

Maybe you need a better bow.

Nothing like watching 5-6 things all disappear in one shot when, for example, you use good tactics and zap a whole line of mummys with a disrupting bow.

The tanks just go....*** just happened?

Meanwhile, you're racking up the kill count if that really matters to you. Otherwise, maybe you should focus on being a party support toon, crowd control, or insta-kills (slayer or greater-slayer arrows), etc.

Your call.

GeneralDiomedes
08-23-2007, 01:39 AM
I've never, not once, not ever, since the game went live, seen a character who only ranged and outkilled a competent melee in any quest.

What you should do is learn how to mix melee with range appropriately. The game mechanics are not going to change anytime soon.

jaitee
08-23-2007, 02:01 AM
reroll your rangers now!! they are DooooOOOOM!!

Griphon
08-23-2007, 08:29 AM
I've never, not once, not ever, since the game went live, seen a character who only ranged and outkilled a competent melee in any quest.

What you should do is learn how to mix melee with range appropriately. The game mechanics are not going to change anytime soon.

My Archer build (2 ranger, the rest fighter) would often outkill melee units 'back in the day'. That was probably a year ago or so, before they slowed the attack rate of bows. It was also at lower levels and pre-giant hold. Now I, unfortunately, do not play Griphon as much as I found him becoming out of date. He was having issues pumping out enough DSP to keep up. Since then, I've gained every 'special' weapon type in Bow form (Smiting, banishing, etc), and gone back to him rethinking his role as more of a Supporting character, instead of a Ranged DPS. I find him useful in that position. Finding the right 'lined up shot' and stopping half the charging mobs in their tracks is fun and helpful to the party as a whole.

I'm also currently running a lowbie elf full blooded ranger to compare my Archer Build against my Human Archer build. The winner gets all the loot.. The looser gets deleted. I suppose we'll see which it'll come down to... Feats or Pure Dex and spells.

KoboldKiller
08-23-2007, 09:41 AM
I've never, not once, not ever, since the game went live, seen a character who only ranged and outkilled a competent melee in any quest.

What you should do is learn how to mix melee with range appropriately. The game mechanics are not going to change anytime soon.

I outkilled all melee in Kobold Assault with my Ranger/Rogue 2 kills to 1 using only my bow (stayed back with cleric and caster).

PaintHorseCowboy
08-23-2007, 10:05 AM
Diomedes makes an excellent point.

There's bound to be a reason the Ranger is granted the feats that he is.

Maybe it has to do with something like the concept of prepping the LZ. You soften them up from range then by the time they've closed with you, they're easy to finish off.

Could be.

With an appropriate mix of Ranged and Melee combat, a Ranger is a very deadly fighting force with the ability to be completely self-sufficient and a survivor capable of rescuing the party should things go awry.

And don't get me wrong, a pure bow-specialized ranger is an incredible asset IF the player knows exactly what he is doing, has appropriate gear, and the discipline to manage engagements. However, there are some quests where ranging is impractical due to the structure/layout of the dungeon. I'm going to liken it to trying to sweep and clear a building with a shotgun. Yeah, it's doable with the right one (a tactical model) but you try it with your goose gun that has a 28-inch barrel and it's going to be problematic.

As Diomedes said, an appropriate mix of Ranged and Melee combat.

Spookydodger
08-23-2007, 10:07 AM
Kill counts are superfluous.

The biggest benefit of a ranger can often be getting aggro of a group of mobs and pestering them while the melees close in and the casters get into casting position.

Also I have found my ranger is most effective at taking dangerous mobs out of a slugfest before the melee gets aggro, and kiting them around till the rest of the party is ready for them.

As a forward scout and picket, there is little that can compare against a good ranger, aside from the carpy will save.

They also really matter in that they usually don't get the stuffing beat out of them like Melee's do, requiring less maintenance on the part of Clerics.

It IS depressing to see NPC Archers approximately 3x more effective than my ranger, but the important thing is that the group succeeds.

And yes, Rangers often rock at solo work.

Whippy
08-23-2007, 10:13 AM
I've lost count of the number of times I've been declined from a party because of some peoples narrow minded views that 'rangers are useless' or 'what do we need a ranger for?'. Rangers are hugely versatile. Built well they can range or melee, they can buff and heal, not to mention barkskin! Yes, I wish manyshot had a shorter cooldown, but as it stands its still deadly when it is active. So get out your wounding of puncturing weapons and watch yourself outkill any tank you like!

krud
08-23-2007, 10:23 AM
I have a low level elven cleric who is (supposed to be) built for ranged combat. Even though he has a better ranged to-hit and comparable damage numbers (+10 to hit with a bow vs +6 melee), he does way better in melee than he ever does with his bow. All things being equal melee will always outperform ranged combat.

rpasell
08-23-2007, 10:31 AM
I would be willing to bet if manyshot were an always on effect, I'd kill mobs faster with my wounding bow than a vorpal.

The only exception would be red names.

hannika
08-23-2007, 10:54 AM
my ranger can keep up very respectifully in kill counts with the tanks and casters because of many shot. when it's active she'll kill the entire mob before it runs out. when it's on cooldown her wounding of punctring bow makes the mobs easier to pk/finger for the casters :)

rangers are incredibly usefull if they're build well and have good equipment, and yes i've been guilty of and ran into a lot of ranger hate, but i've learned the error of my ways

Emili
08-23-2007, 10:56 AM
Ranged combat is slower... but then again with manyshot in giant hold ruins I've also taken out giants in 2 to 3 shots with many shot on before. coupled with IPS it's awesome DPS for the duration it last. My gut feeling though is if it lasted longer then the tables would be turned... and you'd be saying why have melee?

First with ranged combat you're sfe most the time, can take things down way before the melee get there in many situations... way before the caster is in range in many situations. I can easily target a mob from a distance and kill it out of his site and range (unless it's a mob ranger like a scout who can shoot arrows). I once hit a giant on multishot for three arrows 112, 101, and 90 some pierce damage (not counting greater bane damages) - for one shot that's very good as is among the best crits a full blown dps barb can deliver (346).

One thing I do is when in party ... while manyshot is cooling I TWF. While I don't watch the kill counter, it does put my Ambyre on par with it. Now I've never taken the time to measure her true DPS (and a lot of DPS is weapon selection suggested). She's a str of 22 and a dex of 32 so she hits pretty steady ... +3 sturdy denieth arrow, the elf melee and bow enhancements shore her up a bit so she's a +11 damages outside favored enemies (another +4 with them), buffed up she's doing great.

Oh, comming back to kill counter vs DPS... is really how you play the toon, I've seen many high DPS not lead in kills too and it's not for the lack of being able to get high crit. Mostly has to deal with who is doing what... a ranger is also a great toon to zerge with. If you want kill counts then solo.

I never had ranger hate even though the class is among the last I built... Ambyre first build was a drow ranger and I remember soloing Greymoon/co6 from normal to elite when she was a level 6 because it was hard to get her in groups and I could not stand waiting around anymore and I wanted denieth sturdy arrows badly. So I know some people do view rangers (and probably every class) in a different light. I for one never had class bias for most quests as you do not need any given class for most quests. It's simple enough to do near every in the game with a group makeup of anything.

JelloMold
08-23-2007, 11:03 AM
Not arguing about toe to toe damage output here, but keep in mind that a good ranging ranger far outstrips melee in damage dealt vs. damage taken. Couple that with the ranger's ability to essentially be removed from combat enough to backup wand heal, and rangers are quite valuable.

But if you care about kill counts then ranging reallly won't work.

Strakeln
08-23-2007, 11:08 AM
maybe because you've never played a ranger that could easily outkill everyone else in the party...QFT.

I don't know what you're smoking, OP, but if you gave rangers permanent manyshot with no detriment to to-hit, fighters and barbarians would be classes of the past.

Lorein_Azura_Childs
08-23-2007, 11:11 AM
The ability to stay out of reach of most everything while turning it into a pin cushion is a huge perk of being a ranger.

While there are times where the damage cant quite measure up, assuming your favored enemy isnt what your fighting, the specialty bows more than make up for the deficiency in hitpoint damage.

Examples:

Wounding of Puncture
Weakening of Enfeebling
Smiting
Disruption
Paralyzing
Destruction
Strength Sapping (Yes it does work sometimes) of Destruction (At least its good for the first volley)
(Whatever that new SR reducing attibute is called again it escapes me)
And many more.....


So what it might take a bit longer, just requires some good tactics and some finesse...and yes the so called "twitchy" nature of the game does help here.

So in closing... not getting hit is great :) and the reflex saves dont hurt either in many situations.

The ranger basically isnt meant to be the so called front liner or barbarian, but depending on the player, gear, and ammunition at least for a while youll be just as good if not better. But I personally feel my play style lends itself to "hit and run pick them off before they get to us" style.

But again to reiterate...

Cant really argue against, Greater Bane + Favored Enemy + Certain Ammunition types.

Puke
08-23-2007, 11:18 AM
Even if you made manyshot ALWAYS on and no "-" to-hit i still wouldnt come close to MOST tanks killcount. Heck, you could give me crit on 15-20X3 and the mobs are still fingered/pk'd from the mage, slayed/destructed from the cleric, vorpal'd/disrupted/smited/paralyzed/cursed from the tank faster than i can get 2 shots off - get real people.

Pretty much true, though I think you overstate the 15-20 crit if manyshot were always active. That would make for a Monster!

Ranged fighting is purposely pulled-back so as not to exceed melee fighting and if you cannot see that, you are playing some other game.

Other than Slaying Arrows which are incredibly rare, drop in too few numbers, and a collection would clog your backpack, the archer is not offered anything on a bow that is instant-death like PK, FoD, Vorpal, etc. And Smiting and Banishing is limited to a crit which is a 20 with a bow. My Ranger has a Banishing rapier and I'd be daft if I were to pull out a Banishing bow instead of that rapier.

There is one little dagger I'd like to see made into a bow. It's the Giant Slaying Dagger from the desert that is +4 Greater Giant Bane with a 10% chance of slaying a Giant. Instead of dropping ammo, I'd love to see bows like this with 10% slaying chance. I can think of Undead Slaying bow with the same stats, and more.

Yes, there will always be instances when everything is in alignment and the gods are smiling down upon you which makes it so that your few seconds of ranging are superior to anything else. But over the course of an adventure, range fighting lags behind melee in so many ways. To Rangers: drop the bow and grab two rapiers because you weren't given the TWF Feats for nothing.

Puke
08-23-2007, 11:24 AM
The ability to stay out of reach of most everything while turning it into a pin cushion is a huge perk of being a ranger.

While there are times where the damage cant quite measure up, assuming your favored enemy isnt what your fighting, the specialty bows more than make up for the deficiency in hitpoint damage.

Examples:

Wounding of Puncture
Weakening of Enfeebling
Smiting
Disruption
Paralyzing
Destruction
Strength Sapping (Yes it does work sometimes) of Destruction (At least its good for the first volley)
(Whatever that new SR reducing attibute is called again it escapes me)
And many more.....




1. All those weapon types on a melee weapon are much superior.
2. It's rare that you can range and never be touched. Things run onto you too quickly, or range back, or casters hit you with something nasty. The quests are just not geared towards ranging. Shoot, there are times that someone can see my character and ranges HIM when I can't see him at all yet. This is no more apparant than the Dwarfs over Ataraxia's Haven...the ones around that pit with the elevator down.

Mercules
08-23-2007, 11:24 AM
I've never, not once, not ever, since the game went live, seen a character who only ranged and outkilled a competent melee in any quest.

What you should do is learn how to mix melee with range appropriately. The game mechanics are not going to change anytime soon.

Then you need to get out more, because it happens very regularly in the lower levels of the game. I had one melee tank go Zerg on me and start sucking up Clerical resources because my Heavy Repeater fighter was out killing him 2-1(only noticed after wondering why we was Zerging) in WW. I know that changes in the higher levels of the game, but in the low levels a solid Repeater Build can drop a lot of mobs quickly with very little risk to the character.

rpasell
08-23-2007, 11:30 AM
Instead of dropping ammo, I'd love to see bows like this with 10% slaying chance. I can think of Undead Slaying bow with the same stats, and more.



It's called a Disruptor :)

Puke
08-23-2007, 11:40 AM
It's called a Disruptor :)

I know. I have one on a bow and two light weapons that I TWF with. I prefer to use the melee version. However, the Disruption is based on a save and at higher difficulty level, those saves are rarely missed. If I understand the dagger correctly, it's a 10% slaying chance. Also, it'd have the Greater Undead Bane so you'd be doing 3d6 damage if that slayer didn't go off. And if it is a +4 Bow like the dagger is a +4 dagger, it'd be a +8 vs that enemy type. Quite different from a Disruptor if you think about it. Right?

It's just an idea and it doesn't have to be relegated to just Giants and I threw Undead out there as an idea but it doesn't have to relegated to them either. But then, I do not have one of these daggers and maybe I misunderstand how it works. If that is the case, my suggestion is rescinded. :D Still, point is, I think they can do a little better with the bows which would bring them close to on par with Vorpals and this Giant Slayer Dagger and more.

PaintHorseCowboy
08-23-2007, 03:34 PM
Shoot, there are times that someone can see my character and ranges HIM when I can't see him at all yet. This is no more apparant than the Dwarfs over Ataraxia's Haven...the ones around that pit with the elevator down.

I'm not picking a fight but I have to add my two cents for a little levity here.

Maybe you should oil your armor once in a while so you don't squeek so much. :D

*****

I think the crux of this matter lies in the simple realization that not every toon, every build, or every player is going to be the superior killer in every single quest. When people realize this and have the strength to get over themselves enough to say, "So what if I didn't lead the kill count? But I contributed to the party by ... ." then you will see an end to this type of discussion. Do I believe this will ever happen? Not by a long shot... .

Kill counts are, in my opinion, mostly worthless anyway. If you need an example of why I believe this is so, run with my wizard sometime. I will show you that just because I have the highest kill count, doesn't mean I was the one doing the most work. Yes, this is called sniping when done by a caster and unless I miss my guess, it irritates most tanks. However, it seems the reverse is looked at as being perfectly acceptable. The caster has control of the mobs, is doing a fine job kiting them through his damage area, and none of the tanks are getting damaged, yet they charge in and "steal" the kill. Did they really do all the work on that kill or did they just kick them in the shin and because the caster had been baking them at 450 degrees for 30 seconds, the mobs happened to die? All kill counts really measure is how many times you were fortunate enough to land the final blow. It doesn't necessarily mean you did the most DPS to that mob or that you contributed more to the quest than any other player. If you think this is so, try telling that to the PUG Cleric you picked up for VON-5. That because he didn't kill anything he didn't contribute to your quest since without him, you were stuck at the double doors. Or try telling that to the caster who just buffed the holy living heck out of you so that you could survive 2 minutes of toe-to-toe combat with some insidious foe and without whose buffs you would have dropped like like a fruit fly.

Yes, at times the ranger is going to out DPS any fighting build out there. At other times, they're going to get out-killed because the geography of the quest conspires against ranged combat. That's why they make multiple quests where multiple builds can excell.

Yes, there are some known issues with ranged combat such as shots not registering as an attack or the inability to target a hostile and have the shot hit when your target is moving laterally. Chalk them up to the vagaries of combat until they are able to fix them. Either that, or learn to attack mobs without using the auto-target. Then you can use Kentucky Windage to lead and put rounds on target.

But getting back to the point at hand, no one single attack method is the best for every situation. If you think that it is, go watch Discovery Channel on some of the latest weapons being developed. New weapons and new methods of employment (tactics) are constantly being developed due to changes in enemy doctrine, strategy, or tactics. You can't take out a tank with a machine gun so against a rifle company, the tank may be the kill count leader. Conversely, it's very difficult to take out a ground-attack aircraft with a tank. Even a whole column of armor doesn't stand much of a chance (without the addition of other elements) against an A-10 Thunderbolt.

So if you want to be successful, Diomedes was absolutely correct. A balance of the two, utilizing the strengths (granted feats) of the Ranger class, is your best bet.

Remember, flexible is far too rigid for combat. In combat, you need to be fluid.

Jaysensen
08-23-2007, 04:07 PM
Or...

Maybe you need a better bow.

Nothing like watching 5-6 things all disappear in one shot when, for example, you use good tactics and zap a whole line of mummys with a disrupting bow.


You can do the same with a Vorpal especially with Glancing Blows and WW/Cleave etc... And then factor in the better attack rate and scaling attack bonus...

Okita
08-23-2007, 04:26 PM
I've never, not once, not ever, since the game went live, seen a character who only ranged and outkilled a competent melee in any quest.

What you should do is learn how to mix melee with range appropriately. The game mechanics are not going to change anytime soon.

really? everytime i've ever ran Kobold Assault (ever!) if there was a ranged party member in the group they've always outkilled everyone else.

If need be I know I've got a SS somewhere of my ranger that was lvl 2 when everyone else in the party was at least a three...I outkilled everyone else by a longshot... and never needed a heal.

Fetchi
08-23-2007, 04:31 PM
mm, maybe because people play at levels before clerics get destruct, before anyone can use vorpals, before mages get pk, etc...

maybe because rangers solo...

maybe because you've never played a ranger that could easily outkill everyone else in the party...

maybe because you don't play a ranged character you don't really understand ranged players frustrations...

My 1st character to max level is a ranger - and i have a maxed out cleric - and i have a maxed out wf wizard - so - yes - i think i understand what im talking about.:D

Fetchi
08-23-2007, 04:32 PM
Or...

Maybe you need a better bow.

Nothing like watching 5-6 things all disappear in one shot when, for example, you use good tactics and zap a whole line of mummys with a disrupting bow.

The tanks just go....*** just happened?

Meanwhile, you're racking up the kill count if that really matters to you. Otherwise, maybe you should focus on being a party support toon, crowd control, or insta-kills (slayer or greater-slayer arrows), etc.

Your call.

The best bow in the game still remains the level 6 Silver bow - i have practically every bow in the game- next?

GeneralDiomedes
08-23-2007, 04:36 PM
I outkilled all melee in Kobold Assault with my Ranger/Rogue 2 kills to 1 using only my bow (stayed back with cleric and caster).

That's actually a good example, probably the only one.

However if the melee were hanging out by the spawn spot you would have problems outkilling them. I also once ran it with Expeditous Retreat on my battle bard and roasted the ranged char by 3 to 1 (i could run around faster than he could kill and re-target).

I wonder if my 'competant' caveat would cover that ..

Mercules
08-23-2007, 04:59 PM
That's actually a good example, probably the only one.

However if the melee were hanging out by the spawn spot you would have problems outkilling them. I also once ran it with Expeditous Retreat on my battle bard and roasted the ranged char by 3 to 1 (i could run around faster than he could kill and re-target).

I wonder if my 'competant' caveat would cover that ..

Probably. Smart ranged combat players use targeting on one mob while pointing their reticle at another nearby mob. Shots go towards the targeted mob until it drops and then they go straight out hitting the one you are pointing at. this way you don't waste shots while retargeting.

Puke
08-23-2007, 05:05 PM
I'm not picking a fight but I have to add my two cents for a little levity here.

Maybe you should oil your armor once in a while so you don't squeek so much. :D

LOL. Too much oil and I slide down the hill.

Actually, some may not know what I talk about. But I experienced this here more than other places where if you target a dwarf and range him and then run away until he dissapears from your view and your target window, he'll keep shooting at you and hitting you. They can target farther than players can.

Muirtach
08-23-2007, 05:13 PM
My favorite person to play with was my best friend Nessa. He played a pure SoTR Ranger for the most part, largely DPS. Together the two of us could Handle virtually anything which came our way (Int and Cha runes were a bit of a problem, my barb would the Wis ones). The reason was simple.

If Melee and Ranged work together as opposed for personal glory (kill counts) you are just as, if not more, devastating as a group of rogues sneak attacking together. Every group of things we came upon was already softened up to the point where I only needed a swing or two to finish them off and if it was a more rough group he would kite them around while my spring-attacking, fleet-footed slaughter machine would follow up the back side of the train until we met at the middle. Kind of like Lady and the Tramp, but more intestines and less spaghetti.

Don't sweat the kill count really, only the self conscious worry about that. A ranged fighter is a boon to any party it joins, even if they don't realize it.

Muirtach
08-23-2007, 05:15 PM
You can do the same with a Vorpal especially with Glancing Blows and WW/Cleave etc... And then factor in the better attack rate and scaling attack bonus...

Just a FYI, vorpal's don't work on glancing blows. They did for a short period, but that was a bug and was fixed.

PaintHorseCowboy
08-23-2007, 11:58 PM
LOL. Too much oil and I slide down the hill.

Actually, some may not know what I talk about. But I experienced this here more than other places where if you target a dwarf and range him and then run away until he dissapears from your view and your target window, he'll keep shooting at you and hitting you. They can target farther than players can.

Yeah, that happens in BTG also. Grab the stupid arcus' agro with whatever, run back to the gate, toss down another fire wall and then yell in your best Forrest Gump voice, "SOMETHING BIT ME!"

Those guys are uncannily accurate. I tell you, sure seems like if I'm displaced, their 50% miss is more like 5%. And our 50% miss if they're displaced is more like 95%. Well..it's got a 5 in it so close enough, right?

You're definately right, they have us out-ranged.

What ever happened to Murphy's Laws of Combat? The very first rule was "If the enemy is in range, so are you."

I'm telling! They're not playing fair!

ROFLMAO

GeneralDiomedes
08-24-2007, 12:55 AM
Then you need to get out more, because it happens very regularly in the lower levels of the game. I had one melee tank go Zerg on me and start sucking up Clerical resources because my Heavy Repeater fighter was out killing him 2-1(only noticed after wondering why we was Zerging) in WW. I know that changes in the higher levels of the game, but in the low levels a solid Repeater Build can drop a lot of mobs quickly with very little risk to the character.


LOL I play the low levels more than just about anybody. It doesn't happen unless you are comparing yourself to average players, which you obviously are.

Mercules
08-24-2007, 01:21 AM
LOL I play the low levels more than just about anybody. It doesn't happen unless you are comparing yourself to average players, which you obviously are.

Obviously, because I couldn't happen to be right in any other way, right?:rolleyes:

I think you are missing the point that Repeaters, especially ones with Elemental/PG Effects can do a lot of killing at levels 2-6. After that, they quickly loose usefulness at least in my experience.

BUpcott
08-24-2007, 05:22 AM
My favorite person to play with was my best friend Nessa. He played a pure SoTR Ranger for the most part, largely DPS. Together the two of us could Handle virtually anything which came our way (Int and Cha runes were a bit of a problem, my barb would the Wis ones). The reason was simple.

*cough Jameela cough* (A.k.a. Baby Virtual Nessa)

BUpcott
08-24-2007, 05:23 AM
My 1st character to max level is a ranger - and i have a maxed out cleric - and i have a maxed out wf wizard - so - yes - i think i understand what im talking about.:D

Maybe you should try a ranged ranger again since you didn't get it right the first time.

P.S. Kill count means nothing.

Zenako
08-24-2007, 08:55 AM
1. All those weapon types on a melee weapon are much superior.
2. It's rare that you can range and never be touched. Things run onto you too quickly, or range back, or casters hit you with something nasty. The quests are just not geared towards ranging. Shoot, there are times that someone can see my character and ranges HIM when I can't see him at all yet. This is no more apparant than the Dwarfs over Ataraxia's Haven...the ones around that pit with the elevator down.


re 1., not superior just on a different weapon, where you WILL be subject to return blows.

re 2., Not never touched, but with a good ranged attacker (most often a Ranger), it is rare that I cannot spot a mob before they see me and get off attacks on them, often deadly, since they drop before they get in range. Archery has superior range to spells, and even if that caster closes in, virtually all long ranged attack spells are REF save based and Evasion generally makes them a moot point. I WANT to get the mob casters attention/aggro on me and not the rest of the party. I then move to away from the rest so those incoming spells, targeted on me, blast away harmlessly as I evade them.

For me the single biggest detriment to using effective ranged attacks is not game mechanics, but game play style choices for many players. Just as some players do not stay close to the clerics who could heal them, or wait to be in the Area of Effect for Mass Buff spells, those same players tend to rush forward and draw attention from the mobs before the party has really gotten in position or ready to most Efficiently use their resources to defeat the mob. Sure the mob dies, but the casters spent 10% of their mana killing it or curing party members. With different tactics, the same mob can be taken down with the consumption of MUCH fewer resources.

Much like rogues get gimped by play styles of many other players, ranged attack effectiveness gets gimped. If the parties were willing to consistently use the best tactics, there would be no running through traps and then healing up afterwards. Mobs would have to run to you, not you to them.

If ranged attacks are so "bad" why are some of the most feared attacks in the desert those being launched by the "uber gnoll archers?" Triple Damage crits DO HURT. Assuming that among their favored enemies are Humans, Elves, etc, that can also explain why those arrows hurt a LOT. I know the Giants I shoot REALLY do not like those triple digit numbers showing up.

FluffyDucky
08-24-2007, 09:03 AM
For game balance ranged combat should never be the equal of melee. What would be the point in getting close enough to get hit if you can do the same damage from across the room? Ranged combat gives good damage dealt vs damage received and is useful to thin out or soften up a mob before it gets in melee range but once you're within swinging distance the bow should always lose to the sword.

Zenako
08-24-2007, 09:06 AM
Yeah, that happens in BTG also. Grab the stupid arcus' agro with whatever, run back to the gate, toss down another fire wall and then yell in your best Forrest Gump voice, "SOMETHING BIT ME!"

Those guys are uncannily accurate. I tell you, sure seems like if I'm displaced, their 50% miss is more like 5%. And our 50% miss if they're displaced is more like 95%. Well..it's got a 5 in it so close enough, right?

You're definately right, they have us out-ranged.

What ever happened to Murphy's Laws of Combat? The very first rule was "If the enemy is in range, so are you."

I'm telling! They're not playing fair!

ROFLMAO


As for ranging, perhaps they can use the same methods we use. Target the mob, and back off until the graphic disappears, but you still have them in the targeting orb. At low levels this works great on shamen for example. You will be able to kill them before they can close to spell range. Works on Beholders too. Sneak up until you spot the mob, move back a bunch and then open up fire. One dead abberation.....

Zenako
08-24-2007, 09:07 AM
For game balance ranged combat should never be the equal of melee. What would be the point in getting close enough to get hit if you can do the same damage from across the room? Ranged combat gives good damage dealt vs damage received and is useful to thin out or soften up a mob before it gets in melee range but once you're within swinging distance the bow should always lose to the sword.


Point I have made time and time again...

Game balance issues trump most other arguements about physics and real world comparison and mechanics.

Missing_Minds
08-24-2007, 09:21 AM
For game balance ranged combat should never be the equal of melee. What would be the point in getting close enough to get hit if you can do the same damage from across the room? Ranged combat gives good damage dealt vs damage received and is useful to thin out or soften up a mob before it gets in melee range but once you're within swinging distance the bow should always lose to the sword.

I shall allow you to make this call. In turn I want TWO things. Weapon swapping from bows/xbows to melee weapons to be the SAME SPEED as changing from one sword to another.
No more lost rolls on ranged attacks be it from them being far away or the target 45 degrees to left or right of me while in my face. I'm sorry, but I've seen NPC archer arrows make a flipping 90 degree turn mid flight! I should be able to pivot at the hip to his that annoying kobold that is nipping at my ankle.

It takes me about 1.5 seconds in melee to change weapons with a lvl 14 fighter (no quick draw)
It takes a ranged person about 3-5 seconds to change weapons IF AND ONLY IF the game allows the change to happen.
The whole issue of this has to be the dam attack que.

Until they fix these two things, ranged combat should be as fast as melee combat because of the shere number of LOST attacks ranged speced people deal with.

~Treemarker
08-24-2007, 09:51 AM
The best bow in the game still remains the level 6 Silver bow - i have practically every bow in the game- next?

Respectfully, I'd have to disagree. Don't get me wrong, it is an *excellent* bow, particuarlly at level 6, with the improved critical range. But I'm falling in love with transmuting bows. It is so *NICE* to see those red numbers flash up without having to click on a different bow to gain maximum effect. I carry the silver equiped, and on the first yellow number, out comes the transmuting, and I'm just as click happy as before. By the time I hit 14, I expect to be absolutely devistating on boss mobs, and I'm really looking forward to trying it out on DQ elite.

Just a guess, but I think the break for when the silver longbow will become secondary will be around the 11 and above dungeons. Maybe not. That holy effect and extended crit range are tough to forgo as a general tool.

Zenako
08-24-2007, 10:01 AM
I would guess that for 24/7 usage the Silver bow would still win. However, it is clear that Greater Bane Bows beat it vs those particular mobs, that various elemental burst bows of PG can beat it agains SOME mobs, etc.

That various special bows (Banishing, etc) can be the right choice sometimes.

That stat damaging bows are better sometimes.

But I would guess that most of the time if you asked a Bow user to keep only ONE bow for 24/7 usage, it would still be the Silver.

I have a trasmuting bow but have not had much of a chance to try it out and look forward to seeing how it stacks up. Transmuting does not do EXTRA damage, just avoids damage Reduction so I suspect the other bows with extra damage will still win, unless your base damage was a lot higher than the extra damage.

~Treemarker
08-24-2007, 10:01 AM
It takes a ranged person about 3-5 seconds to change weapons IF AND ONLY IF the game allows the change to happen.
The whole issue of this has to be the dam attack que.

I'm fairly certian the culprit here is the reload animation. Not a que.

Lorein_Azura_Childs
08-24-2007, 10:17 AM
Maybe you should try a ranged ranger again since you didn't get it right the first time.

P.S. Kill count means nothing.

Good example of that is when you shoot through 10 things with a paralyzer and everything is paralyzed as you many shot through them.

:)

Score board says you didnt do jack.

A player in the group might think it.

But you know better.

PaintHorseCowboy
08-24-2007, 10:57 AM
Originally Posted by PaintHorseCowboy
Yeah, that happens in BTG also. Grab the stupid arcus' agro with whatever, run back to the gate, toss down another fire wall and then yell in your best Forrest Gump voice, "SOMETHING BIT ME!"

Those guys are uncannily accurate. I tell you, sure seems like if I'm displaced, their 50% miss is more like 5%. And our 50% miss if they're displaced is more like 95%. Well..it's got a 5 in it so close enough, right?

You're definately right, they have us out-ranged.

What ever happened to Murphy's Laws of Combat? The very first rule was "If the enemy is in range, so are you."

I'm telling! They're not playing fair!

ROFLMAO

As for ranging, perhaps they can use the same methods we use. Target the mob, and back off until the graphic disappears, but you still have them in the targeting orb. At low levels this works great on shamen for example. You will be able to kill them before they can close to spell range. Works on Beholders too. Sneak up until you spot the mob, move back a bunch and then open up fire. One dead abberation.....

Uh...

For those of you just getting off the short bus...

Loosen your crash helmet and let your brain have a little blood.

My reply, being referred to here, was posted in jest. If you had bothered to read back on the topic far enough, you would have caught that. Why you did not, in your apparently finite wisdom, one can only guess. Perhaps you have a passion for being misinformed and running off at the mouth over the slightest perceived provocation or perhaps you think your knowledge and power to be as divine as Xerxes. I really do not care why.

But do everyone a favor when you decide to post in a thread. At least read it first so you know what the heck is going on before you decide vomit forth meaningless drivel attempting to rationalize something that was posted in fun between two other players.

Missing_Minds
08-24-2007, 10:58 AM
I'm fairly certian the culprit here is the reload animation. Not a que.

I'm pretty certain it is not. Why would the animation matter, when for instance, the attack was done, animation done, I'm standing around doing nothing for 1 second but waiting, spam the change weapon button about 6 times, then hit "shoot" and suddenly... I shoot another flipp'n arrow. Never changed the weapon at all.

Zenako
08-24-2007, 11:21 AM
Uh...

For those of you just getting off the short bus...

Loosen your crash helmet and let your brain have a little blood.

My reply, being referred to here, was posted in jest. If you had bothered to read back on the topic far enough, you would have caught that. Why you did not, in your apparently finite wisdom, one can only guess. Perhaps you have a passion for being misinformed and running off at the mouth over the slightest perceived provocation or perhaps you think your knowledge and power to be as divine as Xerxes. I really do not care why.

But do everyone a favor when you decide to post in a thread. At least read it first so you know what the heck is going on before you decide vomit forth meaningless drivel attempting to rationalize something that was posted in fun between two other players.

Ummm while it was clear you were engaged in some hyperbole, I was also seeking to explain why it might SEEM that the mobs had more range than the players do. From my observations, it seems that most of the time characters got shreaded in the desert for example was when they were ahead of the group, alerted the mobs and got their attention and then run back to us (out of visiable range of the mobs) but were still taking incoming. I have had players wonder out loud "how can the bleepity bleep still see me", and that is exactly how.

As to your derogatory comments to me directly, did YOU notice how many OTHER posts in this thread I had already made... If it was a comment made between just two players with no intention of having others comment on it, use a PM then. It avoids ANYONE having any chance of not understanding your private joke.

Puke
08-24-2007, 01:20 PM
Respectfully, I'd have to disagree. Don't get me wrong, it is an *excellent* bow, particuarlly at level 6, with the improved critical range. But I'm falling in love with transmuting bows. It is so *NICE* to see those red numbers flash up without having to click on a different bow to gain maximum effect. I carry the silver equiped, and on the first yellow number, out comes the transmuting, and I'm just as click happy as before. By the time I hit 14, I expect to be absolutely devistating on boss mobs, and I'm really looking forward to trying it out on DQ elite.

Just a guess, but I think the break for when the silver longbow will become secondary will be around the 11 and above dungeons. Maybe not. That holy effect and extended crit range are tough to forgo as a general tool.

I've played three Rangers to level 14 (and a few others too who were deleted at some point for one reason or another) and the Silver Bow was still my primary bow even at level 14. With the +3 returning arrows, it's a +3 Bow with a critical threat of 17-20 and it does 1d10 damage +2d6 for Holy. I don't have the time or constitution to conduct a mathematical comparison with a Greater Bane bow, but my gut instinct is telling me that it isn't much of in improvement to go Greater Bane if any improvement at all. Those two extra crit numbers and 1d10 damage is very nice!

Instead of slaying arrows, I want to see some 10% slaying bows sort of like the Giant Slaying dagger. I really hate collecting and organizing ammunition!

Transmuting is nice and it's still pretty new. I do have a pretty good bow (I think a +4 Transmuting of Maiming or something like that) and I still haven't really utilized it yet. Shoot, I actually rarely use the bow anyway. Since most things are evil, the Silver Bow works just fine and I love that crit range!

Emili
08-24-2007, 02:54 PM
This is silly, with manyshot on I can kill an elite dwarf in no more than 3 or 4 shots (+2 criplinng longbow of greater dwarf bane) before the barbarian with me ever even sees the dang duegar he's dead. If you're having trouble seeing mob ahead I suggest you shore up your spot and listen skills... they're not just for trap monkeys you know. For the record I'm telling you my ranger and my ranger/rogue both compete well in the kill counters along with some of the best players on the server... and I'm in no way uber or elite.

When I have manyshot at my disposal I use it... if the mob is far away I still use a bow... but when manyshot is cooling down and the mob is in close proximity then I will TWF.

Now, I know my arrow hitting for 80-100 pierce on a crit is not on par with any of my melee under PA using a greataxe or SoS but that is on par with any one handed weapon... and if you wish to talk about crit threats you best remember most all weapons (bare Khopesh) the higher the x multiple the smaller the threat... the bow is on par with any axe. The speed of reload to shoot slows u down but remember the mob is at a distance.

My take on this is that if they sped up ranged combat anymore than it is you'd say bye bye to the effectiveness of all meleeing classes.

Emili
08-24-2007, 03:18 PM
I've played three Rangers to level 14 (and a few others too who were deleted at some point for one reason or another) and the Silver Bow was still my primary bow even at level 14. With the +3 returning arrows, it's a +3 Bow with a critical threat of 17-20 and it does 1d10 damage +2d6 for Holy. I don't have the time or constitution to conduct a mathematical comparison with a Greater Bane bow, but my gut instinct is telling me that it isn't much of in improvement to go Greater Bane if any improvement at all. Those two extra crit numbers and 1d10 damage is very nice!

Instead of slaying arrows, I want to see some 10% slaying bows sort of like the Giant Slaying dagger. I really hate collecting and organizing ammunition!

Transmuting is nice and it's still pretty new. I do have a pretty good bow (I think a +4 Transmuting of Maiming or something like that) and I still haven't really utilized it yet. Shoot, I actually rarely use the bow anyway. Since most things are evil, the Silver Bow works just fine and I love that crit range!


Just a note... the greater bane with a +3 arrow is a +7 to-hit/damage before the d8 and str, favored and elven damage II are added in to be multiplied in the crit.

Utilizing the weapon compare program from the web ... a lvl 12 ranger with a str mod of 6 and a dex mod of 12 with +2 in favored enemy to-hit/damage the greater bane is 26.75dps while the silver is 22.75dps the silver starts to dive at around mob ac of 29 while the greater bane starts to dive at mob ac of 37.

You made me curious so I had to look.

Strakeln
08-24-2007, 03:44 PM
Utilizing the weapon compare program from the web ... a lvl 12 ranger with a str mod of 6 and a dex mod of 12 with +2 in favored enemy to-hit/damage the greater bane is 26.75dps while the silver is 22.75dps the silver starts to dive at around mob ac of 29 while the greater bane starts to dive at mob ac of 37.Does that include improved crit:ranged?

Edit: bah, doesn't matter either way

Aesop
08-24-2007, 04:08 PM
as for the subject of attack progression... either add it in for Ranged or remove it for melee.

reducing it would be ok as well (as long as Ranged got a comparable one)

I always hated the improving attack, but I can compromise. How about

+0/+0/+2/+4 as opposed to +0/+0/+5/+10 cause that is just crazy

tie that in with my suggestion about increased RoF and you'd have a working model.

Melee +0/+0/+2/+4
Ranged +0/+0/+2 (with Rapid Shot and Improved Rapid Shot=75% Melee Speed... I mean really this is costing us 2 Feat to make up not even the entire distance in RoF and the Attack Rate of TWF is horrid as well... but that's a different though similar discussion)

to make up for the further penalties that this system has inheranlt against ranged we can reduce the Many Shot penalties by half (and make it a Stance) so -2 for 2 Arrows, -3 for 3 arrows, -4 for 4 arrows (at BAB +16)





ok so heres the short form

1. Reduce Iterative Attacks from +0/+0/+5/+10 to +0/+0/+2/+4

2. Increase RoF of Ranged Combat to 50% the speed of Melee before Feats

3. Have Rapid shot increase RoF to 65% of Melee and add in the Feat Improved Rapid Shot that increases the RoF to 75% of Melee

4. Give Ranged the same or similar Iterative Attacks as melee (for its round spread +0/+0/+2)

5. Make Many Shot a stance with half the PnP penalties -1 per arrow and reduce the RoF back down to 50% when using (as Many Shot is supposed to be a Standard Action... but that would be too slow by comparison so... just slow it down a little, effectively the Stance overwrites Rapid Shot)

6. Increase Arrow Stack Size to 250

7. Replace the Ammo slot with a quiver slot and add quivers that can hold 4-12 stacks...or something like that.

8. Make Improved Precise Shot a Metastance so you can toggle it on or off. Sometimes you only want the far guys aggro.

9. Add in a couple of decent raid gears for ranged attackers... that X-Bow isn't bad... but its a x-bow.


Anywho that's what I'd like


Aesop

MtnLion
08-24-2007, 04:23 PM
I've never, not once, not ever, since the game went live, seen a character who only ranged and outkilled a competent melee in any quest.

What you should do is learn how to mix melee with range appropriately. The game mechanics are not going to change anytime soon.

Err, the game mechanics did, you must not have noticed. When my sorcerer hit level 14 he became a killing machine, PK, FoD, PK, FoD ... 1831 sp. Kill count Sor = 80, all other party members = 29. (It is kind of funny to watch all of the melees make excuses during and after a quest when I do this.) In reality that happened to bow using ranged fighters at about level 8, when the smart ones used shards to shift focus to TWF.

Sorcerers should be able to kill like that! Bow users should be able to kill something, but if it ain't disruptable, or if you don't have a disrupting bow, likewise banishment, there is no vorpal bow, but I would settle for a vorpal rapier, the bow user is kind of stumped. I know he can get the aggro, but remember he will die quick, because he doesn't get toughness (if he is a ranger) or any enhancements to AC (if he is a ranger or non-dwarf). While many of them chose ranger to be a longbow wielder and boosted their dexterity at creation to make hits. Now their misguided attempt at making a bow user languishes in kind-of finesse build purgatory.

Note to Aesop: Do not forget that Manyshot should be toggleable with no cooldown, which needs to be Number One on your list.

Helmet
08-25-2007, 01:31 AM
ranged dps suck, rangers are for barkskin, or dwarf meleers
next.

Harbinder
08-25-2007, 05:11 AM
So what if it takes longer to kill using a bow? At least the enemy didn't get to swing at you!

Ganak
08-25-2007, 01:03 PM
After 5 capped alts, I rolled a 32 pt elven archer (currently 10 ranger/2 fighter, aiming for 18 ranger/2 fighter), with the intent on being the deadliest shot on the server (feats, stats, skills all working towards this goal). I'd like to think my other two melee characters (and rogue) are top of the line killers, and I was excited to give ranged a chance.

So far so good. I'm a "twitch" player, with ddo my first mmo, after years of domintating fps games. For many quests, only great melee character will outkill me. For other quests, no one can touch my archer (undead quests for example, disrupting bow + many shot = wow). However, there will be quests where ranged is less effective.

It's very rare for me to take damage as I can keep mobile (shot on the run was a must get), and the ratio of kills/dps to clerics sp spent presents a tremendous value to the party (if they do hit me, thank goodness for my fearsome robe). Ranged makes it easy to control the agro without taking damage. I single out monsters (going for casters first of course) and kite them to take them out of the fight. It's also nice to be able to take down a few mobs from a distance before the party even closes.

If something needs to die quick--manyshot for me will typically take down anything far faster than melee (there are exceptions). Granted, I've unmercifully twinked my archer with Greater Banes, disruption, banishing, para, smiting, wounding of puncturing, silver longbow, and elemental burst of pure good bows. If I didn't have the resources to get any bow I would need, ranged combat would be significantly less effective.

I would like to see the bug where ranged shots do not hit fixed (I think it has gotten better of late), but I would not want to see ranged combat changed in other ways, otherwise it would greatly unbalance the game as they found in beta. If they fix just the ranged bug, wow. Watch out.

Like the introduction of firearms allowing the unskilled masses to dominate and eliminating the advantage of skill and personal valor on the battlefield, to have ranged combat become more accessable would be a negative to the game imho.

jim0ijk
08-25-2007, 01:36 PM
I really appreciate Ranger behind me Paralyzing or Cursing the opponet before I face him. Not everyone has to have a high kill count to be effective. If your Rogue is getting a high kill count, but can't disable traps or open locks, or if your cleric is allowing people to die in order to slay living and improve his kill count, it leaves a gap in the party. Don't get me wrong, I frequently check my kill count to see how I am keeping up, but the successful completion of the adventure is how I judge the members of the party

Luthen
08-26-2007, 11:26 AM
Even if you made manyshot ALWAYS on and no "-" to-hit i still wouldnt come close to MOST tanks killcount. Heck, you could give me crit on 15-20X3 and the mobs are still fingered/pk'd from the mage, slayed/destructed from the cleric, vorpal'd/disrupted/smited/paralyzed/cursed from the tank faster than i can get 2 shots off - get real people.

Umm... given your "proposed" crit range, perma Many Shot and no minus to hit scenario... I doubt any class in the game could outkill a Ranger with that ability. You've obviously been playing some gimpy Rangers. Granted ranged combat is not, currently, as useful a melee for the most part but it is not that horrid. Many Shot + Improved Precise Shot can lay low an entire host of enemies while the tank is working on one or two. Figure that into your equations next time.

You are aware that they make Disruption, Banishing, Smiting bows? Slaying arrows? These are all tools of a Ranged combatant. A +5 bow will not outdamage a +5 Sword. But a Disrupting bow will, if used properly, outkill a Holy of Greater Undead Bane sword. Some will disagree and that's fine. But I'll take a well played Ranged class over an extra tank any day. They're just not all that easy to find (Well played Ranged classes that is).

MtnLion
08-27-2007, 12:10 PM
... a lvl 12 ranger with a str mod of 6 and a dex mod of 12 with +2 in favored enemy to-hit/damage the greater bane is 26.75dps while the silver is 22.75dps the silver starts to dive at around mob ac of 29 while the greater bane starts to dive at mob ac of 37.

You made me curious so I had to look.

Strength mod 6 == Strength 22 or 23
Dexterity mod 12 == Dexterity 34 or 35

Hmm, my sorcerer that only uses one real stat has a +2 tome and a +6 item is only at 32 charisma (drow bonus to charisma).

You made me curious, I had to think. :p

Strakeln
08-27-2007, 12:24 PM
Strength mod 6 == Strength 22 or 23
Dexterity mod 12 == Dexterity 34 or 35

Hmm, my sorcerer that only uses one real stat has a +2 tome and a +6 item is only at 32 charisma (drow bonus to charisma)Should be able to get a 34 charisma with a drow sorc:

20 base
3 levels
3 sorc enhancement
2 tome
6 item
= 34

Getting 22 str and 36 dex on an elf or halfling ranger isn't that difficult:

20 dex base
3 levels
3 ranger enhancement
2 racial enhancement
2 tome
6 item
36 dex

14 str base
2 tome
6 item
22 str

MtnLion
08-27-2007, 01:43 PM
...

Didn't mean to imply that it was not possible, but that it would limit the abilities to a major extent. You also assume getting two +2 tomes for strength and dexterity, the rarest, or most costly. Probably be much easier to buy 10 vorpals.

maddmatt70
08-27-2007, 02:25 PM
It is possibly to be closer to a top tank's kills with an expansive usage of slaying arrows and greater bane arrows. The problem with this is how cumbersome arrows in ddo are. Some of the reasons for this are the following: all the slaying and greater bane arrows look the same, arrows are only found in stacks of 20, the drops of these arrows are fairly infrequent, and each stack of 20 takes up an inventory slot which is really limiting. The biggest issue for me is space when considering I have healing wands, sturdy/normal arrows, a multitude of bows, and a few melee weapons - it is just not realistic for me to have a complement of slaying/greater bane arrows on hand. I would probably have to go to the bank before every quest get the proper slaying/greater bane arrow type for that quest and organize the arrows in my hot keys. Then go out in the quest and equip those arrows for those monsters shoot the arrows and then after the quest hunt for more arrows. In my ideal world turbine would improve this, but with the state of DDO as it is now I am just hoping for more content. Enough that this game will keep going for 6 more months anyway.

Norg

Twerpp
08-27-2007, 02:27 PM
Even if you made manyshot ALWAYS on and no "-" to-hit i still wouldnt come close to MOST tanks killcount. Heck, you could give me crit on 15-20X3 and the mobs are still fingered/pk'd from the mage, slayed/destructed from the cleric, vorpal'd/disrupted/smited/paralyzed/cursed from the tank faster than i can get 2 shots off - get real people.
Apples and Oranges dude. Not sure about targets getting vorpaled before you get 2 shots off though. Rangers and ranged rogues I run with often have the them paralyzed for me or cursed for the casters before my tank is there to swing. BTW I just love swinging into the *poof* cloud of the dudes ashes when they get FOD'ed dont you? Oh yeah rangers dont have to range you get some seriously cool melee feats for free.