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View Full Version : I want my Potions of Shield!!!!111oneone



Maldini
08-22-2007, 07:50 PM
They come on Clickies, why not potions?

They're a self-only spell, so maybe there's a limitation in that regard, but I think they should come in potion form.

If anything to let barbs be able to have shield up while raging instead of just being able to use a clicky prior to a rage. This gives an advantage to the other melee classes over barbs since they can use shield clickies at any point.

Snike
08-22-2007, 07:53 PM
OMG Barbs have advantage over other melee because they can rage one one one

Maldini
08-22-2007, 08:00 PM
OMG Barbs have advantage over other melee because they can rage one one one


OMG***BBQ!!!!1111oneoneone

Other melee classes can still get decent damage output. If there's a specific rule that states spells that are self-only can't be in potion form, I'll buy that, but then again DDO deviates from PnP rules quite often.

vyvy3369
08-22-2007, 08:09 PM
If there's a specific rule that states spells that are self-only can't be in potion form, I'll buy that
Closest I could find (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingPotions)was:

The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

Edit: oh right, and the part about Shield in particular:

Shield
Abjuration [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal

Maldini
08-22-2007, 08:13 PM
So what's the rule about clickies?

vyvy3369
08-22-2007, 08:25 PM
Clickies are Wondrous items, and don't really have any restrictions like that. The creation rules for them are guidelines, and are ultimately up to the DM if it's a custom item. For example, a clicky for Mass Heal 1/day would have an estimated market price of ~55kgp, but I doubt any DM would let that fly.

Ithrani
08-22-2007, 11:09 PM
Clickies are Wondrous items, and don't really have any restrictions like that. The creation rules for them are guidelines, and are ultimately up to the DM if it's a custom item. For example, a clicky for Mass Heal 1/day would have an estimated market price of ~55kgp, but I doubt any DM would let that fly.

What do you mean, a single use heal item cost 55k gp and a DM would not allow a Cleric with the Create Wondrous Item to make one? Why not? 55k GP is alot of cash in PnP even for 16+ level. Then again my party gives up all the +1-+2 loot like short swords and armors to their lackies and now followers. So they have quite a bit less gold and items then they should. They do fine regardless, but a single use per day heal item would be fine if the Cleric took the feat to create it and spent the time and exp. Maybe I am easy going as a DM, I focus more on story then what my players do with their gold. If they want to create that item I work the story around it.

vyvy3369
08-23-2007, 05:33 AM
Perhaps a more fitting example of why they can be difficult to work with would be things like Maze that give no save or SR. Yes, they can be worked around, but the point was that clickies are often far too powerful for the suggested market price.

Comparing the cost to wands, it's cheaper to buy a 1/day clicky than it would be to get a wand of the same spell...while it has the drawback of only being useful once per day, it should outlive the wand easily. The 55k was for a Mass Heal, a better example might be a regular Heal that a level 8 character could, by the book, walk into a store and buy.

AxeM
08-23-2007, 06:36 AM
"Clickies" throw things out of whack but personal spells don't exist in potion form because they are suppose to be limited to being cast by the appropriate casters as part of their balance. Should a wondrous item that casts shield be more expensive then a wondrous item that casts Shield of Faith? Assuredly, however the pricing guidelines completely fail to address issues like that. Unfortunately the Turbine DM failed to realize this and now you feel entitled to the shield spell at all times on your barbarian despite the fact the spells is balanced on the assumption that your raging barbarian will not have access to it.
There is the related issue that most wondrous items do not require concentration to activate, activating by command word or thought or shaking or some such meaning raging probably shouldn't disable their use, but that's an argument for another day.

tihocan
08-23-2007, 06:46 AM
I'm against adding pots of shield. Well I would love it for sure, but it would be too powerful. High level 2H and 2W melees would be running with shield 100% of the time (L1 pots are very cheap). This is currently not the case with shield clickies because:
- clickies take inventory slots
- more importantly, clickies are much more cumbersome to use than potions. You need one click to equip the clicky, then you wait a fraction of second for the cooldown, then you use the clicky, then you need to re-equip your previous item in that slot. It's a pain if you want to do it every minute, compared to a single click for a potion

Now I realize barbs are at a disadvantage because they can't use clickies when raged, but I would still not introduce shield pots.

Ziggy
08-23-2007, 08:36 AM
I want more titan cookies.:D

The_Old_Sage
08-23-2007, 08:43 AM
I want more titan cookies.:D
Interesting you mentioned that. Titan cookies were, in effect, shield potions (of the cookie variety). I think they also have a duration of 10 minutes (though I stand to be corrected). A shield potion with duration 6 minutes would not be a game-breaker, in my opinion. After all, you can get barkskin and shield of faith potions.

Are shield wands available too?

It could even be a favor reward buff, but some folks would likely think that is tooooo powerful.

Mad_Bombardier
08-23-2007, 10:52 AM
Interesting you mentioned that. Titan cookies were, in effect, shield potions (of the cookie variety). I think they also have a duration of 10 minutes (though I stand to be corrected). A shield potion with duration 6 minutes would not be a game-breaker, in my opinion. After all, you can get barkskin and shield of faith potions.

Are shield wands available too?Yes, but Barkskin and Shield of Faith are not Range:Personal. If they did include Shield potions, they'd have the option of high cost, medium duration (lvl 6 shield like Barkskin) or low cost, short duration (lvl 1 shield). The high cost pots would take more coin out of the economy, but the low cost ones would last less time and be more cumbersome for players.

In either case, I can't say that it would totally unbalance the game. Gaining 4 AC versus 7 or 9 for a real shield is a fair trade off. Although, I'd rather see Improved Buckler Defense implemented. At least then, you avoid the MM/FM immunity.

Dariun
08-23-2007, 11:09 AM
Are shield wands available too?


Yes. My WF fighter x/Wiz 1 carries shield and false life wands. Very handy.

Demitris
08-23-2007, 11:47 AM
I'd be damned if I can remember the exact ruling and where it is, but as anyone who has played PnP for any length of time will tell you, Barkskin and shield of faith pots exist in PnP, but shield doesn't.

I beleive it is actually (and more than likely wrong due to the early hour of this) more so restricted to arcane casting rather than divine.

Since as such barkskin and shield of faith are classified divine, they are considered to be potions blessed by the faith/gods. Where as Shield is arcane and is drawn of the caster, so is not subject to outside influences.

Mercules
08-23-2007, 11:59 AM
Yes. My WF fighter x/Wiz 1 carries shield and false life wands. Very handy.

And my UMD characters carry Shield, False Life, Aid and numerous other low level wands. I also have a WF Fighter x/Wiz 1 and I love the utility wands and some of the self buffing/healing at the lower levels.

Maldini
08-23-2007, 02:46 PM
I'm against adding pots of shield. Well I would love it for sure, but it would be too powerful. High level 2H and 2W melees would be running with shield 100% of the time (L1 pots are very cheap). This is currently not the case with shield clickies because:
- clickies take inventory slots
- more importantly, clickies are much more cumbersome to use than potions. You need one click to equip the clicky, then you wait a fraction of second for the cooldown, then you use the clicky, then you need to re-equip your previous item in that slot. It's a pain if you want to do it every minute, compared to a single click for a potion

Now I realize barbs are at a disadvantage because they can't use clickies when raged, but I would still not introduce shield pots.


Non-babarian 2HF and 2WF already can run around with it up 100% of the time if they carry enough clickies.

Karethon
08-23-2007, 02:55 PM
It could even be a favor reward buff, but some folks would likely think that is tooooo powerful.

It was a reward from House Phiarlan when favor first came out. Then someone pointed out that it has a range of personal, and they took it away. (Note: I don't recall the details around why it was removed, but remember the range being mentioned as a possibility.)

Maldini
08-23-2007, 03:11 PM
It was a reward from House Phiarlan when favor first came out. Then someone pointed out that it has a range of personal, and they took it away. (Note: I don't recall the details around why it was removed, but remember the range being mentioned as a possibility.)


I loved it when they did that. Having a 30 minute Shield spell on a barb was awesome.

tihocan
08-23-2007, 03:24 PM
Non-babarian 2HF and 2WF already can run around with it up 100% of the time if they carry enough clickies.
Hmm yes, that's why I pointed out why very few actually do it. Or at least, I have yet to group with someone who does it (though I may have not noted it, but a shield every couple of minutes should attract some attention).
My guess is it would be much more common if pots were available.

Maldini
08-23-2007, 03:29 PM
Hmm yes, that's why I pointed out why very few actually do it. Or at least, I have yet to group with someone who does it (though I may have not noted it, but a shield every couple of minutes should attract some attention).
My guess is it would be much more common if pots were available.


I see it a lot on people who use either form of weapon fighting. But maybe it's just more common in my circles on Khyber.

Jaysensen
08-23-2007, 04:01 PM
Rangers tend to do this more often as modern Rangers tend to have UMD. Shield Wands FTW.

Mad_Bombardier
08-23-2007, 04:33 PM
It was a reward from House Phiarlan when favor first came out. Then someone pointed out that it has a range of personal, and they took it away. (Note: I don't recall the details around why it was removed, but remember the range being mentioned as a possibility.)False Life is also Range:Personal and is still available. It's not just the range, it's the game balance consideration.

Mercules
08-23-2007, 04:54 PM
Hmm yes, that's why I pointed out why very few actually do it. Or at least, I have yet to group with someone who does it (though I may have not noted it, but a shield every couple of minutes should attract some attention).
My guess is it would be much more common if pots were available.

4th level WF Fighter with a Wizard splash. Every fight that will have MM cast at me and some of the tougher fights where the AC might matter you will see me casting Shield. Because of the 30% spell failure and limited SPs I carry a wand of Shield as a backup.

For big battles my normal routine goes:
Bull's Strength - wand
Barkskin - potion
Shield(extended) - cast
False Life - wand
Shield of Faith - potion
Divine Favor - clicky
"Let's get-it Oooowwwwwnnn!"

Muirtach
08-23-2007, 04:57 PM
Buffs? Barbs don't need no steenkeen buffs!

Mercules
08-24-2007, 01:30 AM
Buffs? Barbs don't need no steenkeen buffs!

If they want my Cleric to heal them, they do. :D

Vyctor
08-24-2007, 02:52 AM
They come on Clickies, why not potions?

They're a self-only spell, so maybe there's a limitation in that regard, but I think they should come in potion form.

If anything to let barbs be able to have shield up while raging instead of just being able to use a clicky prior to a rage. This gives an advantage to the other melee classes over barbs since they can use shield clickies at any point.

The reason there are no shield potions is because per D&D rules, potions can not be created from self only spells.

From the SRD:

CREATING POTIONS

The creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew. In addition, he needs ingredients. The costs for materials and ingredients are subsumed in the cost for brewing the potion—25 gp x the level of the spell x the level of the caster. All ingredients and materials used to brew a potion must be fresh and unused. The character must pay the full cost for brewing each potion. (Economies of scale do not apply.)

The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, he pays the XP cost upon beginning the brew in addition to the XP cost for making the potion itself. Material components are consumed when he begins working, but a focus is not. (A focus used in brewing a potion can be reused.) The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

Brewing a potion requires one day.

studentx
08-24-2007, 04:00 AM
They come on Clickies, why not potions?

They're a self-only spell, so maybe there's a limitation in that regard, but I think they should come in potion form.

If anything to let barbs be able to have shield up while raging instead of just being able to use a clicky prior to a rage. This gives an advantage to the other melee classes over barbs since they can use shield clickies at any point.

You could buy the cookies.