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sigtrent
08-22-2007, 01:09 PM
From Sigtrent's Build Request Thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=117232)

Build Name: Hammer and Tongs
Author: Sigfried Trent
Requester: Pinksock
Last Updated: 07/12/10

Key Words [Tactics, Dwarf, TWF, Fighter]

Objectives
The requester wanted a 28pt TWF character using either hammers or picks. I got it into my head to do a TWF character that used both hammers and picks, idealy at the same time. The high concept was that the hammer would stun opponents and the pick would tear them apart with strong auto crit’s.

Design
I went with dwarf for the tactics bonuses and because I liked the idea of dwarves with anvil like tools. Warforged would work quite well also but I’ve done a similar warforged build already. TWF focus was essential and on a 28pt build that means splitting Str and Dex at character creation. Fighter is the natural class for any tactics based build and pure is a good way to go. In the end it let me get all the feats I wanted and then some.

Since pick is the damage dealer I throw Kensei into it. Generally you would be main handing a pick and off handing a stunning warhammer. You are more focused on landing a stunning blow move than on getting the 3% stunn chance. You can instead use dual stunners and then switch to dual picks. Quick draw makes that easier to do once you get it. Ive often found that approach a bit impractical, but it is effective if you are quick enough.

Damage with either weapon will be very good but the pick crits are really insane at high levels, especially if you can work a high seeker value into the mix. Epic Meralith Chain is great for this build, and even the normal chain is pretty nice.

Defenses are decent here although that really isn’t a prime consideration. Solid HP and decent AC are attainable but this is not meant to be a main tank for a group. On boss fights go with dual picks and you should be in the top tier of DPS, especially if you get a bit lucky on the crit rolls.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Neutral Good Dwarf Male
(20 Fighter)
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 9
Will: 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 23
Dexterity 16 17
Constitution 16 17
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 6 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 5 18
Bluff -2 1
Concentration 3 6
Diplomacy -2 1
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 3 3
Intimidate -2 1
Jump 7 29
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 3 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 0 2
Spot -1 -1
Swim 3 7
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II


Level 5 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Kensei Heavy Pick Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I


Level 7 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) III
Enhancement: Fighter Heavy Pick Specialization I


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) IV


Level 11 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Kensei Heavy Pick Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II


Level 13 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Quick Draw
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III


Level 17 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Heavy Pick Specialization II


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Kensei Heavy Pick Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei III
Enhancement: Fighter Warhammer Specialization I


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics III




Play
Weapons play an important part in this build so hunting down good stunning hamemrs and DSP picks is key. Also keep in mind that while you don’t have improved trip, you are decent with tripping anyhow so make it part of your hot bar at lower levels. You may also want to keep a pair of dwarven axes for zombie slaying.

Variations
32pt builds and tomes only add to the fun. You can probably start with 18str if you like. You can also turn this into a splash build, probably rogue if you want evasion and a little sneak attack damage. Fighter alacrity is nice, but not quite the boon it once was. When you take it might be a little tricky though due to the BAB requirements on the feats taken. Its easier to add in later to the build than earlier.

WolfSpirit
08-22-2007, 01:38 PM
I like this one Sig, but I would like you to alter a few things for me if you would.

First off, I want to see this as a drow version.
Both a Str option, and a Dex/Finesse option.
(I figure Finesse with PA is still holding its own)
All or mostly fighter, whichever gives the best TWF skills with dual Heavy/Light Pick.
with all the happy Piercing bonuses/feats and such.
Oh! And what if you wanted to go with Kopesh in main hand? Whats the best secondary hand weapon, and what Feat changes would that include to make that a deadly build?
If you can squeeze in good self healing, cool if it takes too much away, then scrap it.
And all without items, though suggestions after the fact are good.

Hokonoso
08-30-2007, 01:48 PM
best khopesh offhand is another khopesh :P

Pinksock
09-02-2007, 11:08 PM
Thanks for that Sig. I have been messing around with both builds and didn't even think of combining them! I have collected an average stash of both weapons (nothing top end but enough to make the mid levels fun) so this build is easily doable for me and I am quite excited to get in and give it a go.

The only follow-on question I would have is would it be worth sacrificing some high end weapon damage feats like greter weapon specialisation and things like cleave to get the mobility->spring attack line. With the amount of moveing most mobs do now, would there be an increase in DPS due to the removal of the to-hit penalty?

Will be rolling up 'Redsock' on Khyber this week and following your gameplan.

Thanks
Pink

sigtrent
09-02-2007, 11:56 PM
There is certainly lots of room to play around with the feats on the build. You don't need the greater WF or greater WS they just seemed the right thing to maximize pick damage for the build.

I'm not a fan of mobility/spring attack. Running around tends to make you miss due to server lag and latency because the monster isn't really where it appears to be, more than you miss due to the -4 attack penalty. But the build does already have dodge in there so its only two feats. Fighter is about the only class I'd consider those feats for since you have feats to spare.

If mobility weren't so useless I might like it more. I've often argued it should give you an ac bonus whenever you are moving or the like. Then it would be more worthwhile in my mind.

Personaly I tend to stick and move. So I move around and then stop to attack, then move a bit if needed. I like tumbling since it doesnt interupt the attack chain or impose the move penalty but its not so good for chasing monsters.

My fave move tactic is to circle a monster when there are a bunch of them agroed on me. Thier buddies get cought up finding their way around while I pick on the one I'm using as a virtual shield.

Diato
09-10-2007, 12:14 AM
Doesn't 5% stun give +10 to dc of stunning blow?

Pinksock
09-11-2007, 01:29 AM
Doesn't 5% stun give +10 to dc of stunning blow?

I am not sure, but I do know the 1% stun gives +2 DC so I would assume that 5% would give +10

Yet to find a 5% weapon!

Schmackdown
09-11-2007, 08:05 AM
5% gives +10. Much more common are 4%/+8 weapons IME.

This build needs Quick Draw.

A_Sheep
09-11-2007, 09:39 AM
Yeah, I'd definitely add quick draw to this build. It'll increase your DPS if you can swap the weighted weapons for picks. I'd suggest dropping dodge for quick draw.

sigtrent
09-11-2007, 11:13 AM
Yeah, I'd definitely add quick draw to this build. It'll increase your DPS if you can swap the weighted weapons for picks. I'd suggest dropping dodge for quick draw.

It really doesn't need quick draw. The idea is that you always wield the weighted weapon in the off hand and the pick in the main hand. The bonus to stunning blow DCs applies not to the weapon, but to any stunning blow the character makes. So stunning blows with the pick get the bonus from the weighted property of the off hand weapon.

The 5% stun is only on off hand attacks, but that is just a bonus effect, it is the increase to stunning blow DCs that we are really after here.

Schmackdown
09-11-2007, 11:59 AM
It really doesn't need quick draw. The idea is that you always wield the weighted weapon in the off hand and the pick in the main hand. The bonus to stunning blow DCs applies not to the weapon, but to any stunning blow the character makes. So stunning blows with the pick get the bonus from the weighted property of the off hand weapon.

The 5% stun is only on off hand attacks, but that is just a bonus effect, it is the increase to stunning blow DCs that we are really after here.
Well, that's one idea. Another one would be to wield a weighted/10 hammer and vertigo/10 rapier and swap to anarchic/axiomatic burst and seeker/10 picks or dual bane weapons after delivering a stun or trip. I'm not sure why you're embracing the fact that you get the overall seeker/weighted/vertigo/shatter DC bonus from both weapons, then limiting yourself to only using the Stun portion of the equation. For +1 to AC? That doesn't make any sense. And the only way "always wielding" makes any sense to me is if you have a 5% weighted blunt in the offhand and a bursting heavy pick mainhand along with a Bloodstone. Even if you were concentrating 100% on landing Stunning Blow, you'd likely want 5%ers in each hand when you're on the SB timer rather than hoping/praying for one 5% to land or a crit on the pick. Not to mention that with Quick Draw you can swap to debuffing weapons to bane to power 5's to whatever else you wanted while on the timer.

sigtrent
09-11-2007, 12:29 PM
Well, that's one idea. Another one would be to wield a weighted/10 hammer and vertigo/10 rapier and swap to anarchic/axiomatic burst and seeker/10 picks or dual bane weapons after delivering a stun or trip.

Ya, but that would be a somewhat different character. They do have vertigo Picks BTW and the requester specificaly wanted to use picks or hammers and avoid the usual TWF weapons. Reguardless, the build doesn't have imporoved trip or combat expertise or 13 int. Without improved trip, you can still land it, but why slow down your damage output for the occasional trip when you could just wail away on someone? BTW anarchic/axiomatic burst are generaly no where as good as the elemental burst weapons are on high crit multiplyer weapons. They are nice on rapiers and other X2 weapons but on X3 and above the elemental effects are much more reliable and have more damage potential.



I'm not sure why you're embracing the fact that you get the overall seeker/weighted/vertigo/shatter DC bonus from both weapons, then limiting yourself to only using the Stun portion of the equation.

Because if you wield two tactics weapons, you end up with two low enhancement (aka low +) weapons in both hands. That lowers your accuracy and damage. You can't trip what you can't hit. By mixing an effect weapon with a high accuracy weapon you get the best of both on the tactics swing. (which always seems to be made with the main hand). So instad of +1 to hit on your trip/stun you get +5 and that's a 20% bonus to hit.



For +1 to AC? That doesn't make any sense. And the only way "always wielding" makes any sense to me is if you have a 5% weighted blunt in the offhand and a bursting heavy pick mainhand along with a Bloodstone.

I've no idea what you mean about the AC. but... Yes... if you look at the attack profile I am recomending a 5% weighted blunt and a bursting heavy pick mainhand. I didn't put the bloodstone in there as I don't generaly include raid loot except sometimes in the AC section. But ya, bloodstone would be great for this (or any) combat character. I'm not saying you should never switch weapons, but that is your optimal pairing for 70% of your opponents. For skeletons you would want two blunts etc and stunning would be pointless.

My fighter has improved trip and kopesh. One of my weapon sets is a +5 Shock kopesh paired with a Vertigo 5 light mace. Works great. After tripping someone I do sometimes switch weapons to dual kopesh, but even wtihout quick draw the time it takes to do so is almost inconsiquential. I've never though.. "dang if I only had quick draw this would be so much easier". I'm not saying its bad to have quick draw, but I've never felt the need for it on a character that carries around a veritable golf bag of weapons because generaly I pick the best weapon for the monster before I engage it.



Even if you were concentrating 100% on landing Stunning Blow, you'd likely want 5%ers in each hand when you're on the SB timer rather than hoping/praying for one 5% to land or a crit on the pick.

??? For starters the crit chance on the pick is 10% not 5%, which interestingly is double the chance for the stun to land from the weighted property. Secondly it is not 100% concentrated on landing a stunning blow. Its a bout 50% interested in stun and 50% interested in big pick crits. That is the whole Hammer and Tongs idea, not just Hammer and Hammer.



Not to mention that with Quick Draw you can swap to debuffing weapons to bane to power 5's to whatever else you wanted while on the timer.

Ya, and you can do that wihout quick draw. Really if you are swapping weapons more than once during combat with a particular mob something is probably wrong. There is no need to swap out the hammer and pick unless you are facing something where you wouldn't want to use them at all, in which case you would switch before you start swinging.

Schmackdown
09-11-2007, 02:07 PM
the build doesn't have imporoved trip or combat expertise or 13 int. Without improved trip, you can still land it, but why slow down your damage output for the occasional trip when you could just wail away on someone?
Improved trip only garners you +4 to the DC; with Vert/10 weapons in the game that feat is really for the shorter cooldown. The point is that you get Trip for free, and with a Vertigo weapon you can be stomping someone at +4 to hit rather than having them upright and punching you in the face. Unless you foolishly max out the SB Enhancement line, you'll have the same DC for SB and Trip if you use appropriate weapons.

The reason I bring up Trip is because it joins a common deficiency I see in this build- ignoring free tools the TWF fighter has at his disposal: Trip, Sunder, and shared tactical bonuses beyond just Stun. Quick Draw allows for the fluid use of those bonuses and feats. If this was a rogue or bard build short on combat feats, I wouldn't be such an advocate for QD's inclusion, but this build has so many that you're spending an entire feat on 1 AC while not even considering Mobility/Spring Attack down the road(I'm with you on that one, btw)

BTW anarchic/axiomatic burst are generaly no where as good as the elemental burst weapons are on high crit multiplyer weapons. They are nice on rapiers and other X2 weapons but on X3 and above the elemental effects are much more reliable and have more damage potential.
Axiomatic/Anarchic burst on a pick= +5d6

Elemental burst on a pick= +3d10

I don't see where the "more damage potential" comes from. I can only assume you are mistakenly equating Alignment Burst with Holy Burst.

The difference is minimal regardless. I'll typically pair an appropriate alignment-burst pick with a seeker/10 heavy pick for held/stunned foes in a zone full of like-alignment baddies, but use an elemental pick offhand if it's a mixed bag.

Because if you wield two tactics weapons, you end up with two low enhancement (aka low +) weapons in both hands. That lowers your accuracy and damage. You can't trip what you can't hit. By mixing an effect weapon with a high accuracy weapon you get the best of both on the tactics swing. (which always seems to be made with the main hand). So instad of +1 to hit on your trip/stun you get +5 and that's a 20% bonus to hit.
Or you could throw your tactics on the fourth swing. If you aren't connecting on your fourth swing reliably, you aren't connecting for boo on swings 1-3, either. Someone playing this build should hopefully realize that the Tactical swing is paramount, and will include it on the fourth attack(barring a mezzed target, possibly). Yes, it is easier for someone to just mash the attack button and keep swinging. But it's just as easy for someone adept with swapping and driving a QD build to grab a different weapon set after the fourth swing and go right back to work. It just takes practice, and nailing the fourth-swing Tactical attempt is all the practice you need to fully master Quick Draw, IME.

... if you look at the attack profile I am recomending a 5% weighted blunt and a bursting heavy pick mainhand. I didn't put the bloodstone in there as I don't generaly include raid loot except sometimes in the AC section.
Well, the Bloodstone comes out of the desert, not a raid, but if you're implying that 5% weighted offhand weapons and +5 bursting picks are easy to come by, I don't know why you wouldn't include raid loot as well.

After tripping someone I do sometimes switch weapons to dual kopesh, but even wtihout quick draw the time it takes to do so is almost inconsiquential.
I have to ask here if you've ever played a melee over an extended period of time that *had* Quick Draw. IME the difference is profound, and instead of thinking "that didn't take too long to switch, I don't need Quick Draw" you're looking for ways to use more things in your golf bag during the fight than just estimating what'd be best on average for an encounter. I'm leveling a TWF ranger sans QD and fighting is so stilted it's pathetic. It's reminding me of owning a car without a sunroof or cruise after owning one that did.

...it is not 100% concentrated on landing a stunning blow. Its a bout 50% interested in stun and 50% interested in big pick crits. That is the whole Hammer and Tongs idea, not just Hammer and Hammer.
While I can appreciate this point, I haven't grouped with too many people at the cap that say "yeah, my build could do that, and it'd be pretty fly, but I'm trying to stick to a theme, here." It's not like the dude would be rolling with two scimmys at all times or something and trashing the whole build idea- check the cooldown, bust out the hammers on a swap, stun something, flex the picks, swap back to the blunt-and-pointy. 50/50 all around.

Really if you are swapping weapons more than once during combat with a particular mob something is probably wrong. There is no need to swap out the hammer and pick unless you are facing something where you wouldn't want to use them at all, in which case you would switch before you start swinging.
I don't understand how arming yourself in such a rigid way really helps overall. Let's put the stun aside for a moment, as you can't really rely on that 5%, and eventually you'll be on a timer. You're saying you'll kick out more sustained damage with a 19-20 crit range on a pick and a light hammer in your hand than two appropriate greater bane weapons? Or the flexibility to bust out a debuffing combo if you're having issues hitting or just want to assist other melee? IMO a big part of a tactical build is what you're doing during the cooldowns. Those 15 second chunks can take up a large part of the fight, and even a swap to two picks to max out the crits while waiting for the Stunner to be ready again would be preferable to swinging the hammer.

I'll get to the point- taking Dodge over Quick Draw on a TWF build with a plethora of feats just doesn't add up to me.

It could be that I'm simply underestimating the "theme" aspect of this build, however, and that you(or the requester) wanted to be seen toting a hammer and pick 99% of the time. If that's the case, no worries with the build as-is.

sigtrent
09-11-2007, 02:38 PM
Improved trip only garners you +4 to the DC; with Vert/10 weapons in the game that feat is really for the shorter cooldown. The point is that you get Trip for free, and with a Vertigo weapon you can be stomping someone at +4 to hit rather than having them upright and punching you in the face.

You have to keep in mind I build these with a specific purpose in mind. The request was for hammers or picks because he wanted something different and he wanted to see big critical hits. Tripping just isn't a part of that. I'm not doing the stunning for the sake of crowd control of defense, its there to help you land crits with the pick more often since that is the point of the build. Mucking around tripping people isn't going to make them die faster, its a defensive tactic and this is an offensive build.



Quick Draw allows for the fluid use of those bonuses and feats. If this was a rogue or bard build short on combat feats, I wouldn't be such an advocate for QD's inclusion, but this build has so many that you're spending an entire feat on 1 AC while not even considering Mobility/Spring Attack down the road(I'm with you on that one, btw)

Ahh ok I see where you are coming from with the +1 AC thing now. I agree it's marginal, but I think Quick draw is about the same. I was taking advantage of the decent AC the build has due to being a dwarf. It would be a decent substitution, but I still see this as a build that very heavily favors the one optimal weapon set described. If you land a stun the creature will likely be dead before you can switch weapons anyhow.



Axiomatic/Anarchic burst on a pick= +5d6

I happen to have these so I'll check later but I was under the impression they were always 2d6 base and 3d6 crit.



Elemental burst on a pick= +3d10

And they have +1d6 normal bonus damage too. But the thing is, elemental weapons will effect a much wider range than alignment burst. Alignment burst requires oposite alignments and none of them work on neutral targets of which there are many. I'd rather get my shocking burst all the time than get alignment burst on less than 30% of the monsters in game, 60% if you swap em around between ax/an/hl



The difference is minimal regardless. I'll typically pair an appropriate alignment-burst pick with a seeker/10 heavy pick for held/stunned foes in a zone full of like-alignment baddies, but use an elemental pick offhand if it's a mixed bag.

Stunned monsters are going to die nearly instantly no matter what sort of picks you are swinging around. I'd much rather have a consistantly good weapon that to be constantly fubbing around on my hot bar for some combo that is marginaly better 20% of the time. I'm not saying that its useless to have the perfect weapon for any given moster but I don't personaly think it's worth the hastle when you can kill them just fine anyhow. There are certainly some critters you want to specilize agaisnt. Uncrittable and high DR critters almost require different weapons but to noodle around just to get a little extra damage when you already do 100+ crits seems silly to me.



Or you could throw your tactics on the fourth swing. If you aren't connecting on your fourth swing reliably, you aren't connecting for boo on swings 1-3, either. Someone playing this build should hopefully realize that the Tactical swing is paramount, and will include it on the fourth attack(barring a mezzed target, possibly). Yes, it is easier for someone to just mash the attack button and keep swinging. But it's just as easy for someone adept with swapping and driving a QD build to grab a different weapon set after the fourth swing and go right back to work. It just takes practice, and nailing the fourth-swing Tactical attempt is all the practice you need to fully master Quick Draw, IME..

It just seems like an awful lot of work without an awfuly big payout when you could have one set of weapons that get's the job done admirably on 70% of your foes without any switching or timing etc... I appreciate the craft of it and indeed on my tactics fighter I generaly throw trips on the 3rd or 4th swing, but I don't sweat exact timing and sweapon set switching etc.. and I do just fine. If I want to trip I use my tripping TWF set, and if not I use one of a couple different DPS sets. Monsters don't generaly live long enough to justify switching from one set to another and a tripped mob isn't fighting back so time isn't exactly critical.



Well, the Bloodstone comes out of the desert, not a raid, but if you're implying that 5% weighted offhand weapons and +5 bursting picks are easy to come by, I don't know why you wouldn't include raid loot as well.

Just personal experience I suppose. I don't raid for specific loot but I do buy things of the AH and brokers, and I've bought a fair number of +5 weighted weapons from there and a fair number of +5 vertigo ones, and a few +5 bursting picks as well. I've never ever seen a bloodstone on the AH or brokers. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I've just never seen one. Personaly I don't have the patience to run a chest 30+ times trying to pull named items. I get bored of that pretty fast.



I have to ask here if you've ever played a melee over an extended period of time that *had* Quick Draw.

I have not.



IME the difference is profound, and instead of thinking "that didn't take too long to switch, I don't need Quick Draw" you're looking for ways to use more things in your golf bag during the fight than just estimating what'd be best on average for an encounter. I'm leveling a TWF ranger sans QD and fighting is so stilted it's pathetic. It's reminding me of owning a car without a sunroof or cruise after owning one that did.

Style thing I suppose. I've never flet like I can't switch weapons when I want to. I also hate carying around more than a page of weapons at most, it seems both rediculous and bothersome to keep track of them all and find slots for them on the toolbar or to find the right one to click on. Takes me longer to click it than to actualy switch. But I'm not saying it sucks, just that its not for me, and I don't think it's "needed".

Request a buld for the Quick Draw king and I'll try to make a build all about weapon switching, but each one has a central idea and I stick to it. This one is about using very specific weapons.



I don't understand how arming yourself in such a rigid way really helps overall. Let's put the stun aside for a moment, as you can't really rely on that 5%, and eventually you'll be on a timer. You're saying you'll kick out more sustained damage with a 19-20 crit range on a pick and a light hammer in your hand than two appropriate greater bane weapons? Or the flexibility to bust out a debuffing combo if you're having issues hitting or just want to assist other melee? IMO a big part of a tactical build is what you're doing during the cooldowns. Those 15 second chunks can take up a large part of the fight, and even a swap to two picks to max out the crits while waiting for the Stunner to be ready again would be preferable to swinging the hammer.

It isn't a "tactical build". It's a "Picks for crits and hammers for stuns so the picks crit more" build. Lots of weapons are better than hammers or picks but that's what the requester wanted so that's what he got. The whole point of these request builds isn't to make them the best build possible, its first and foremeost to meet the build requirements and secondly to make them work well after doing so. Granted dodge vs quck draw has little to do with the requirements, but the whole, why not use other weapon things is besides the point because that isn't the goal.



I'll get to the point- taking Dodge over Quick Draw on a TWF build with a plethora of feats just doesn't add up to me.

Unlike some of the other stuff I don't totaly disagree with you here, an since you made such a heartfelt case for it I'll change the build to reflect that.

pappo
08-25-2010, 11:02 AM
From Sigtrent's Build Request Thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=117232)

Build Name: Hammer and Tongs
Author: Sigfried Trent
Requester: Pinksock
Last Updated: 07/12/10

Key Words [Tactics, Dwarf, TWF, Fighter]

Objectives
The requester wanted a 28pt TWF character using either hammers or picks. I got it into my head to do a TWF character that used both hammers and picks, idealy at the same time. The high concept was that the hammer would stun opponents and the pick would tear them apart with strong auto crit’s.

Design
I went with dwarf for the tactics bonuses and because I liked the idea of dwarves with anvil like tools. Warforged would work quite well also but I’ve done a similar warforged build already. TWF focus was essential and on a 28pt build that means splitting Str and Dex at character creation. Fighter is the natural class for any tactics based build and pure is a good way to go. In the end it let me get all the feats I wanted and then some.

How would you modify this for dwarven axes? I have a lvl 15 dwarf fighter that I am not happy with and want to do a re-roll. I have a Greater Heart of Wood so I can make a 32 point re-roll. I also have a backpack full of dwarven axes that I would have to sell if I wanted to try this build with picks. I would like to keep the axes if possible.
Any help would be appreciated.

unbongwah
08-25-2010, 02:38 PM
I'm not sigtrent, but for DAxes I'd think you'd take Slashing feats instead of Piercing and the DAxe ftr enhs rather than Heavy Pick. Might even be able to squeeze in the dwarf axe enhs while you're at it. 32-pt vs 28-pt: could put it into +2 CON; or +1 STR + 1 INT - that way you could take a +1 INT tome for more skill pts or +2 INT tome to get Combat Expertise & Imp Trip someday.

MogeeMaleeg
09-10-2010, 07:12 AM
I am working on a human variation on this theme using Hammers and Sickles. Any advice as to how to maximize. I know sickles are one of the lower base dps weapons, but they look so cool and the hammer and sickle theme is fun for me.

The_Mud_Man
01-23-2011, 07:04 AM
Rolled up this guy last night and it's quite fun so far. I started out at lvl 4(love my veteran's status). I'd like to incorporate trip into the build for leveling and swapping out feats/enhancements later as necessary to what's suggested in the build. Any suggestions on how I'd go about this?

dunkabuffalo
01-30-2011, 10:56 PM
-edit-

Mister_Peace
01-30-2011, 11:45 PM
Edit: damn necromancers.

Thescalybard
01-31-2011, 09:24 AM
I rolled out a slightly different version of this build, using the hammers for stunning, but switched to dwarven axes (mostly because I've come across some nice ones lately). After running a few quests, my guildies started calling it "The Chef." I asked him why, and he said, "Because first you tenderize (stun) them with the hammer, then ya cut 'em up like a roast!"

Can't argue with that, I suppose. Thanks for posting the build, might try the actual build someday down the line. :p

sigtrent
02-01-2011, 06:49 PM
I rolled out a slightly different version of this build, using the hammers for stunning, but switched to dwarven axes (mostly because I've come across some nice ones lately). After running a few quests, my guildies started calling it "The Chef." I asked him why, and he said, "Because first you tenderize (stun) them with the hammer, then ya cut 'em up like a roast!"

Can't argue with that, I suppose. Thanks for posting the build, might try the actual build someday down the line. :p

Cool. I've seen a few builds a lot like this one, and was playing with a hammer/dwarven axe stunner in my guild the other day. He was very effective. I think the hammers&Axes plan is a good one and with quick draw you can swap pretty fast if you want to go all hammer then all axe once stunned.

I just rolled up a hammer half orc kensei that just goes for all hammers all the time and is using high strength instead of the extra dwarven tactics enhancements. I just love stunning blow, its DPS and crowd control rolled into one, but it does take some dedication to make it work consistently.

Roaringdragon
03-16-2011, 05:40 PM
sigtrent, is this still a good build even at 2011? You could try to update it once in a while, other then that, I think its a great build.

Culindar
02-06-2013, 10:05 PM
Realizing this is an old build, I wanted to give it a go as a Hammer/DWA version using a 32 pt build with a +3 Supreme Tome at level 11. Because Imp TWF and Greater TWF had to wait, there was a little re-ordering of the feat progression, but the end result was the same. In the planner, I tried to distribute ranks between jump, balance and intimidate. This may get adjusted as I go.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Grabthars Hammer
Level 25 Neutral Good Dwarf Male
(20 Fighter \ 5 Epic)
Hit Points: 537
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 12
Will: 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 25)
Strength 16 28
Dexterity 16 19
Constitution 18 22
Intelligence 10 13
Wisdom 8 11
Charisma 6 9

Tomes Used
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 25)
Balance 3 21
Bluff -2 7
Concentration 4 14
Diplomacy -2 7
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 4
Heal -1 5
Hide 3 9
Intimidate 0 30
Jump 7 26
Listen -1 5
Move Silently 3 9
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 6
Search 0 8
Spot -1 5
Swim 3 14
Tumble 4 11
Use Magic Device n/a 4

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II


Level 5 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Kensei Dwarven Waraxe Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I


Level 7 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) III
Enhancement: Fighter Dwarven Waraxe Specialization I


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Quick Draw
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) IV


Level 11 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Kensei Dwarven Waraxe Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II


Level 13 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III


Level 17 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Dwarven Waraxe Specialization II


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Kensei Dwarven Waraxe Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei III
Enhancement: Fighter Warhammer Specialization I


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics III


Level 21 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Epic Toughness


Level 22 (Fighter)


Level 23 (Fighter)


Level 24 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Bulwark of Defense


Level 25 (Fighter)

unbongwah
02-07-2013, 08:34 AM
Have a look at this build (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=383462). IMHO, there's not much point in splitting your focus anymore; either go for hammers / Mornh or stick with (duergar) d.axes

Culindar
02-07-2013, 12:24 PM
Have a look at this build (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=383462). IMHO, there's not much point in splitting your focus anymore; either go for hammers / Mornh or stick with (duergar) d.axes

I like the Mornh, thanks. But I think, rather than scrapping the build to redesign and build for a weapon I can't even use until level 23, I will continue down this road and do a lesser resurrection when I get the hammer.

One of my guildies suggested that OTWF is kinda a wasted feat, that I might be better served by taking improved trip or sunder instead.

unbongwah
02-07-2013, 04:38 PM
There have been a couple of key changes which have nerfed this build since it was first made: namely Stunning Blow / helplessness only provide +50% dmg rather than free auto-crits (bye-bye massive heavy pick DPS vs stunned mobs :(); and +Stunning is now available on non-blunt weapons at higher lvls, so you don't have to equip a warhammer to get it, so why invest 3 feats into blunt weapons you don't need? Better to pick a weapon type, stick with it, and use those extra feats to pick up CL/GC/Overwhelming Crit, IMHO.

Also, if you're planning on +3 Supreme tome, you don't need so much base DEX. In fact, if you can spare a +1 DEX tome early, you could do something like this:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 25 True Neutral Dwarf Female
(20 Fighter \ 5 Epic)
Hit Points: 512
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 9
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 25)
Strength 18 30
Dexterity 14 17
Constitution 17 21
Intelligence 10 13
Wisdom 8 11
Charisma 6 9

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 23

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Kensei Dwarven Waraxe Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Sunder


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Kensei Dwarven Waraxe Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Dwarven Waraxe Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Precision


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Trip
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II
Enhancement: Kensei Dwarven Waraxe Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei III
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Enhancement: Fighter Dwarven Waraxe Specialization II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 21 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Fighter)


Level 23 (Fighter)


Level 24 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Epic Toughness


Level 25 (Fighter)


You can use a Stunning warhammer in your offhand while leveling, then swap it for another d.axe w/Stunning later. If you LR into hammer Kensei for Mornh someday, naturally you'd swap Slash feats for Blunt.

Culindar
02-08-2013, 11:41 AM
The build is based on the character's name, Grabthars Hammer (homage to the movie Galaxy Quest.) I know the enhancements for dwarven fighters are slanted towards axes, but why have a toon named Hammer that doesn't wield hammers?? So with unbongwah's help, I think I can put this build forward as a better plan than the first.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Grabthars Hammer
Level 25 Neutral Good Dwarf Male
(20 Fighter \ 5 Epic)
Hit Points: 512
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 9
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 25)
Strength 18 30
Dexterity 14 17
Constitution 17 21
Intelligence 10 13
Wisdom 8 11
Charisma 6 9

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 4
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 23

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 25)
Balance 2 23
Bluff -2 7
Concentration 3 13
Diplomacy -2 7
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 4
Heal -1 5
Hide 2 8
Intimidate 2 24
Jump 6 26
Listen -1 5
Move Silently 2 8
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 6
Search 0 8
Spot -1 5
Swim 4 15
Tumble 3 9
Use Magic Device n/a 4

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Sunder) I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II


Level 5 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Kensei Warhammer Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I


Level 7 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Warhammer Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Sunder
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III


Level 11 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Kensei Warhammer Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 13 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) II


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Sunder) II


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Precision
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III


Level 17 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Warhammer Specialization II


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Trip
Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics III
Enhancement: Kensei Warhammer Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei III
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I


Level 21 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Fighter)


Level 23 (Fighter)


Level 24 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Epic Toughness


Level 25 (Fighter)

pappo
03-06-2013, 10:00 AM
[QUOTE=Culindar;4881184]

Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Quick Draw
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) IV

QUOTE]

Why do you take Quick Draw, at level 10, on this toon ? Isn't Quick Draw just for ranged weapons ?

unbongwah
03-06-2013, 06:07 PM
Why do you take Quick Draw, at level 10, on this toon ? Isn't Quick Draw just for ranged weapons ?
QD also reduces the delay on Action Boosts to help max out your burst DPS. It's more useful to HEs & humans who have Haste Boost + Dmg Boost (Versatility), though.

pappo
03-07-2013, 07:08 PM
QD also reduces the delay on Action Boosts to help max out your burst DPS. It's more useful to HEs & humans who have Haste Boost + Dmg Boost (Versatility), though.

Unbongwah - Thanks. that is good information to know.

Eth
03-08-2013, 06:21 AM
QD also reduces the delay on Action Boosts to help max out your burst DPS. It's more useful to HEs & humans who have Haste Boost + Dmg Boost (Versatility), though.

Why not just use cleave or great cleave after you activated your boost?

unbongwah
03-08-2013, 10:24 AM
Why not just use cleave or great cleave after you activated your boost?
That's an option too. By the time you get to epics, the idea would be to do something like "Power Surge -> Dmg Boost (from Versatility, so HE/human-only) -> Haste Boost -> Lay Waste -> Momentum Swing -> Great Cleave -> Cleave" when you really need to put the hurt on. :)

Sonos
03-08-2013, 11:43 AM
One or a couple of these would be sweet for this build too no?

http://ddowiki.com/images/Deathnip.png

9-90 dmg on crit PLUS seeker +10 and red slot. mmmm