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Fallout
08-20-2007, 12:49 PM
I have a ranger that dual wields light piercing weapons. I want to try a TWF but with dwarven fighter class, using slashing weapons to take advantage of racial enhacements.

I am thinking of spashing two level of rogue, mainly for evasion and some backstabbing bonus. When should I take rogue levels? First level for sure for skill bonus. I was told to take second level of rogue at L14 to max out skills?

The skills I'm mainly interested are jump, balance and swim. I have to think about UMD becuase going to have 6 Char.

I also have a question about TWF feats. I want to plan for L20, so 17 dex is for greater TWF, I was reading in the SRD that need 19 dex for perfect TWF? If thats the case, was thinking of

32pt build:

18 ST
17 Dex (can hope for +2 Dex tome by L20 if they do req 19 dex)
10 Con
10 Int
8 Wis
7 Char (pop +1 char tome)

Take all slashing feats. Not a finesse weapon build.

How does the build look? And when to take 2nd level of rogue?

Shroonith
08-23-2007, 03:12 PM
take 16 dex to start, that will free up 3 more points. +1 tome @ creation and a +3 raid tome later if they add superior twf.

as for CHA, yes take umd, take skill focus UMD for that matter, as a fighter you will have lots of feats to spare.

Take 12 or 13 INT. 12 and a tome for CE. or 13 for CE and then eat a tome for more skills. if you take 12 put the last point in CHA or CON as you wish. I recommend a few levels of tumble spot and listen.

remember you have 12 feats, 3 of which will be twf and 4 will be weap focus.
the remaining 5 should be:
toughness
improved crit slash
CE
PA
SF:UMD

btw could u link me the SRD.

Blazer
08-23-2007, 03:26 PM
btw could u link me the SRD.

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/).

Blazer
08-23-2007, 03:43 PM
Perfect TWF is an epic feat and requires a 25 base DEX according to the SRD. Unless they lower that requirement or make some other drastic change, it's going to be very hard for the overwhelming majority of TWFers to get this feat, particularly the ones who don't put level up points into DEX. I'm not sure you should plan for PTWF, honestly. Therefore, 17 DEX is all you need for GTWF. If you've got a +1 DEX tome, it's highly recommended that you start at 16 DEX (saving those 3 build points) and eat the tome.

Speaking of stats, why the 18 STR? And why the 10 CON on a dwarf? I would think they'd make you shave your beard for starting with only the base dwarven CON score, honestly. I would say pull that STR back to 16 or 17. The +1 to hit and damage won't matter, but the extra 3-6 build points will. You start with 17 STR and 16 DEX, that gives you 6 build points you can sink into CON. 16/16 gives you 9 build points to drop into CON and WIS.

UMD on a dwarf? Hmm, tough to say. I can't see you getting it to any significant level to make it worth the investment, honestly. I would recommend skipping it.

If the 3 skills you're interested most in are Jump, Swim, and Balance, well it won't matter much when you take your 2 rogue levels, to be honest. Jump and Swim are both fighter and rogue skills, so you can do a 1:1 investment at every level. Balance is cross-class for fighters, but since dwarves get a bonus to that skill anyway, it won't matter too much.

Shroonith is recommending you take CE for some reason, I don't really understand why. This is clearly meant to be a DPS build so taking a feat to boost AC seems wasteful. Ditching CE and SF: UMD means you get back 2 feats.

One more random thought - are you really excited about Evasion? I ask because if you weren't, you could substitute the 2 rogue levels with ranger levels, thus giving you TWF for free, as well as Bow Str and a Favored Enemy. This also gives you the ability to use all the wands a ranger can use, no UMD check needed.

ErgonomicCat
08-23-2007, 05:08 PM
I have a ranger that dual wields light piercing weapons. I want to try a TWF but with dwarven fighter class, using slashing weapons to take advantage of racial enhacements.

I am thinking of spashing two level of rogue, mainly for evasion and some backstabbing bonus. When should I take rogue levels? First level for sure for skill bonus. I was told to take second level of rogue at L14 to max out skills?


To max Disable Device:

Max ranks at 14 is 17.
Max at 1 is 4.

So at level 1, you have 4 DD.

If you put a point in each Ranger level, that's 12 levels of ranger, for 6 points.

At level 14, you have 10 Ranks. You would get 8 sp + Int. If your int is 10, that is 8 sp.

You can put them all in DD, and have 17 (max ranks) with one point left over.

But then you've been running on suboptimal skills points in between.

llevenbaxx
08-24-2007, 09:22 AM
I wouldnt blow off UMD. I put my charisma to a 7 at creation and used a +1 tome to get to 8. Find yourself a UMD item, a +6 charisma item to switch out and take skill focus UMD. It will open up any of the RR items(this alone is gold as I have saved a fortune on top notch RR weapons) as well as the ability to use low end items(CMW wands etc.) with no fail. Well worth in imo. I have used Raise scrolls on occaision but the fail on those is high Ill admit.

Fallout
08-27-2007, 01:47 PM
Perfect TWF is an epic feat and requires a 25 base DEX according to the SRD. Unless they lower that requirement or make some other drastic change, it's going to be very hard for the overwhelming majority of TWFers to get this feat, particularly the ones who don't put level up points into DEX. I'm not sure you should plan for PTWF, honestly. Therefore, 17 DEX is all you need for GTWF. If you've got a +1 DEX tome, it's highly recommended that you start at 16 DEX (saving those 3 build points) and eat the tome.

Speaking of stats, why the 18 STR? And why the 10 CON on a dwarf? I would think they'd make you shave your beard for starting with only the base dwarven CON score, honestly. I would say pull that STR back to 16 or 17. The +1 to hit and damage won't matter, but the extra 3-6 build points will. You start with 17 STR and 16 DEX, that gives you 6 build points you can sink into CON. 16/16 gives you 9 build points to drop into CON and WIS.

UMD on a dwarf? Hmm, tough to say. I can't see you getting it to any significant level to make it worth the investment, honestly. I would recommend skipping it.

If the 3 skills you're interested most in are Jump, Swim, and Balance, well it won't matter much when you take your 2 rogue levels, to be honest. Jump and Swim are both fighter and rogue skills, so you can do a 1:1 investment at every level. Balance is cross-class for fighters, but since dwarves get a bonus to that skill anyway, it won't matter too much.

Shroonith is recommending you take CE for some reason, I don't really understand why. This is clearly meant to be a DPS build so taking a feat to boost AC seems wasteful. Ditching CE and SF: UMD means you get back 2 feats.

One more random thought - are you really excited about Evasion? I ask because if you weren't, you could substitute the 2 rogue levels with ranger levels, thus giving you TWF for free, as well as Bow Str and a Favored Enemy. This also gives you the ability to use all the wands a ranger can use, no UMD check needed.

Yah looks like GTWF is the max I can go on this guy. I want to try TWF using slashing weapons, so using ST as to hit instead of finesse. My idea of starting 17 dex was to eat a +2 dex tome down the road. But in retrospec maybe start with 16, and hope for a +3 down the road. The 19 dex goal is the GTWF req.

If I take rogue at L1 and L9 can max out UMD if I do UMD every level after L9.Even with crappy starting Char, with +4 cloak, and delera's necklace can get UMD over 20 which suprised me. So can use any weapon in the game. Evasion will be great too. So sacrificing two fighter levels, gain evasion and UMD.

Obviously if this was finesse build will have higher to hit, but I have ranger for that. Want to try ST build using fighter enhacements to make up for the hit.

By no means this will be an uber max build. Kind of a different build for me since I don't do or understand multi-class well.

rimble
08-27-2007, 01:59 PM
Probably should just make another Ranger. Pump Strength and Con, let Dex languish, get all the TWF feats for free without having to meet Dexterity pre-requisites (including any that may come out in the future, since it's very likely the Ranger will be given those too).

A Strength-based TWFer HAS to be a Ranger in my (often wrong) opinion.

Impaqt
08-27-2007, 02:31 PM
Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting:

Prerequisites: Dex 25, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting.

Note it says "Dex 25"........ NOT "Base Dex 25"

ALso Note:

Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

Prerequisites: Dex 19, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.

19? Hmmmm.. But DDO is 17.....

In PnP you absoltely CAN use Items to meet Prereq's for Feats. We cant in DDO.

If you have Greater Two Weapon Fighting in PnP and you Dex Drops Below 19, you Lose an attack..... Like you didnt have the feat....

All the speculatin on Perfect/Superior Two-Weaon Fighting is just that.. Speculation... WHo really cares how/If DDO Ever implements it? Make yoru character within the rules we have today and address what comes down the road later.... well... Later.....



Morale of the Story... Start with a `16Dex.

I'd move those points into CON... I dont Like COmbat Expertise on TWF Builds.. Your already taking a - tohit from TWF... Now your gonna give up another -5? ick.....

18 {+3 Levels +3 Fighter +6Item +2 TOme =32}
16 {+1 Rogue Dex +1 Tome +6 Item =24}
14
10
8
6

12Fighter/2 Rogue

Reflex Save
7 Base
7 Dex
4 Resistance Item
4 GH
2 Recitation
---
24 WIth common Buffs... Makes Evasion Worthwhile...

Fallout
08-27-2007, 04:38 PM
I'd move those points into CON... I dont Like COmbat Expertise on TWF Builds.. Your already taking a - tohit from TWF... Now your gonna give up another -5? ick.....




Yah don't know what Turbine wants to do in the future. It makes making some builds harder to plan. I have plain straight up traditional paladin, ranger, barbarian, sorc builds. So made a L1F/L13 melee cleric and now going to try a L2R/L12 F build for fun.

Too bad if DDO allows items to count as preqs for feats, then its possible to hit 25 dex with a +6 item and +2/3 tome.

I'm not going to do CE, doesn't work for me.

Fallout
08-27-2007, 04:40 PM
Probably should just make another Ranger. Pump Strength and Con, let Dex languish, get all the TWF feats for free without having to meet Dexterity pre-requisites (including any that may come out in the future, since it's very likely the Ranger will be given those too).

A Strength-based TWFer HAS to be a Ranger in my (often wrong) opinion.

I thought about it too. The thing is with rangers you can't bump up weapon specialization feats like fighters can.

So using dwarf fighter with dwarven axes, can take advantage of racial bonuses and the weapon specialization line which helps lessen the pain of martial weapon penatly. Also with ranger build, won't be able to max out UMD. Thats my reasoning.

Talson
08-29-2007, 12:02 PM
I thought about it too. The thing is with rangers you can't bump up weapon specialization feats like fighters can.

So using dwarf fighter with dwarven axes, can take advantage of racial bonuses and the weapon specialization line which helps lessen the pain of martial weapon penatly. Also with ranger build, won't be able to max out UMD. Thats my reasoning.

Multiclassing ranger is the route I'm taking for a build like this... 1 rogue/2 pali/11 Ranger is the level split I'll be going for with the starting stats being 16 str/14 dex/ 14 con/ 14 int/ 8 wis/12 cha (32 point buy).

Taking rogue at first level opens up the max cap of 17 ranks for UMD and then each level afterwards 2 points can be bought cross classed to keep UMD at max for the level.

You would lose the weapon specialization lines but you'd still have the dwarven axe dammage enhancement. Besides keeping UMD maxxed you should also be able to keep DD, OL, and search maxxed or nearly maxxed as well. While not as effective as a pure rogue due to enhancements the build should still be able to disable traps on all but elite...

The problem I see with trying make the build you're describing as a fighter is you'll have to get dex to 17 to pick up the two weapon fighting feats which then makes it tough to also buy STR, CON, and Cha (umd) for your character.

Take it easy
Tal