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View Full Version : Human Versatility: Casters? Take a Hike!



Dingo123
08-19-2007, 05:48 PM
The new Human Versatility HEAVILY favors Melee and Skill based builds. In fact, most of the human attributes favor physical combatants over casters.

However, the degree to which Human Versatility does it is just astounding.

Human Versatility provides FIVE DIFFERENT types of bonuses, and not ONE specifically benefits Casters.

The New Human Versatility provides bonuses to Weapon Accuracy, Weapon Damage, Saves, Skills, And AC.

A fighter will be able to potentially make use of four out of five of those. A Rogue could arguably make good use of ALL of them. A Caster? The Saves boost? Maybe.

Yes, I'm certain bards and clerics could get some milage out of the skills/ac perhaps... but Wizards and Sorcs are left completely in the cold.


Instead of providing a boost to weapon accuracy, allow Casters to increase the DC of their spells for the set duration of the time. Or, allow there to be a Spell percentage Discount during the casting time (i.e. 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%).

jaitee
08-19-2007, 06:08 PM
or they can un nerf it, and return it back to the way it use to be where it was actully useful :rolleyes:

Dingo123
08-19-2007, 06:22 PM
They really should make Human Vers. in some form or another the absolute should have for Humans... because that's the essence of what it is.

Example: Melees get Human Versatility: Defense... Which gives a percentile decrease to damage taken, and a static increase to saves and AC for 20 seconds. Such as 10%(+2), 15%(+3), 20%(+4), 25%(+5), make the Human Versatility Skills boost be permanent like it once was, and do a similar thing for Casters that grants a Percentile SP Discount and DC/Caster Level boost, and finally for offensively minded human physical combatants... same scheme but with attack and damage, and the percentile being an attack haste boost. So a barbarian with Human Versatility: Offense would gain +5 to attack and damage, and a 25% alacrity bonus.


Now, the argument against these is that they would be VERY powerful..

And I won't disagree, they would be.

But consider what humans get in comparison to Dwarves, for example... or Drow? Or even Elves? Or Warforged?

Each of these races gets very substantial PERMANENT boosts. Think of all the benefits a Drow Rogue recieves from their enhancements... or a Dwarven Fighter... and these are on 24/7... they aren't 20 second cool downs from a finite grouping.

Tavok
08-20-2007, 12:12 AM
The new Human Versatility HEAVILY favors Melee and Skill based builds. In fact, most of the human attributes favor physical combatants over casters.

However, the degree to which Human Versatility does it is just astounding.

Human Versatility provides FIVE DIFFERENT types of bonuses, and not ONE specifically benefits Casters.

The New Human Versatility provides bonuses to Weapon Accuracy, Weapon Damage, Saves, Skills, And AC.

A fighter will be able to potentially make use of four out of five of those. A Rogue could arguably make good use of ALL of them. A Caster? The Saves boost? Maybe.

Yes, I'm certain bards and clerics could get some milage out of the skills/ac perhaps... but Wizards and Sorcs are left completely in the cold.


Instead of providing a boost to weapon accuracy, allow Casters to increase the DC of their spells for the set duration of the time. Or, allow there to be a Spell percentage Discount during the casting time (i.e. 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%).

Many casters utilize UMD, which is skill based.

Dingo123
08-20-2007, 12:30 AM
That argument is kind of backwards... of all the casters... only ONE has UMD. So to say that it's "balanced" because many Sorcs and some Wizards make use of a single particular skill (that they don't even have on their classlist) is backwards.

Any Paladin could use the same argument... in fact, any FIGHTER could.

So no, that argument doesn't fly.

Dingo123
08-20-2007, 12:31 AM
Well, the very concept of human is their "Any". They should be able to tap into that extremely potent flexibility at times.

Further, consider the nature of dwarven axe mastery... The developers can't tell us, with a straight face... that +5 damage with every weapon for 20 seconds is somehow comparable to +3 damage to a set of weapons all the time.

Guildmaster_Kadish
08-20-2007, 12:32 AM
They really should make Human Vers. in some form or another the absolute should have for Humans... because that's the essence of what it is.

Example: Melees get Human Versatility: Defense... Which gives a percentile decrease to damage taken, and a static increase to saves and AC for 20 seconds. Such as 10%(+2), 15%(+3), 20%(+4), 25%(+5), make the Human Versatility Skills boost be permanent like it once was, and do a similar thing for Casters that grants a Percentile SP Discount and DC/Caster Level boost, and finally for offensively minded human physical combatants... same scheme but with attack and damage, and the percentile being an attack haste boost. So a barbarian with Human Versatility: Offense would gain +5 to attack and damage, and a 25% alacrity bonus.


Now, the argument against these is that they would be VERY powerful..

And I won't disagree, they would be.

But consider what humans get in comparison to Dwarves, for example... or Drow? Or even Elves? Or Warforged?

Each of these races gets very substantial PERMANENT boosts. Think of all the benefits a Drow Rogue recieves from their enhancements... or a Dwarven Fighter... and these are on 24/7... they aren't 20 second cool downs from a finite grouping.

An interesting opinion. I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree, but the idea that Human Versatility should be overpowered (or, at least, powerful enough that it is a must-have) is something I hadn't thought about before.

Master Kadish

jaitee
08-20-2007, 02:30 AM
honestly who actully picks up the enchancements for HV, its very useless, every race has benefits, as a friend once told me,

why do you like humans soo much? they dont even get anything useful in the race, you are better off with other races

1 extra feat is decent, but look at all the other classes with all those extra enchancements, dex boosts, immunity, AC/+to hit on axes, +2 cha +2 int

and humans get a 20 second HV...

owell, not like caring is gunna change much :p

Dingo123
08-20-2007, 03:15 AM
honestly who actully picks up the enchancements for HV, its very useless, every race has benefits, as a friend once told me,

why do you like humans soo much? they dont even get anything useful in the race, you are better off with other races

1 extra feat is decent, but look at all the other classes with all those extra enchancements, dex boosts, immunity, AC/+to hit on axes, +2 cha +2 int

and humans get a 20 second HV...

owell, not like caring is gunna change much :p


See, and that's the point. Humans are gimped by comparison and the Devs should be made aware of it. The Human Enhancement list is pretty fuggin paltry by Comparison.

BlueLightBandit
08-20-2007, 07:31 AM
owell, not like caring is gunna change much :p

Exactly.

The_Old_Sage
08-20-2007, 07:39 AM
The solution is simple. Re-institute the older version of Human Versatility without the timer. Just tone it down a little so that the maximum bonus is not as high as it used to be, and is comparable with some of the race enhancements like Dwarven Axe mastery or Elven longsword mastery.

Ziggy
08-20-2007, 08:07 AM
honestly who actully picks up the enchancements for HV, its very useless, every race has benefits, as a friend once told me,

why do you like humans soo much? they dont even get anything useful in the race, you are better off with other races

1 extra feat is decent, but look at all the other classes with all those extra enchancements, dex boosts, immunity, AC/+to hit on axes, +2 cha +2 int

and humans get a 20 second HV...

owell, not like caring is gunna change much :p

I picked it up for my MC'er.

I am playing a human rogue/paladin. I picked up HV for 1 specific reason. Its based on full levels not my rogue levels.
Ive got dex bonuses from my rogue levels, and im fine without the extra int or cha.
SO im not immune to everything, and i dont use axes.

Dingo123
08-20-2007, 01:30 PM
The solution is simple. Re-institute the older version of Human Versatility without the timer. Just tone it down a little so that the maximum bonus is not as high as it used to be, and is comparable with some of the race enhancements like Dwarven Axe mastery or Elven longsword mastery.

The old version of Human Versatility wasn't terribly useful to Casters either. No more so than it would be to a Paladin or a Fighter. In fact, it might be MORE USEFUL for a Fighter than a Wizard.

Impaqt
08-20-2007, 01:39 PM
I think a Raise DC or Spell Pen option would be fantastic... This would make Multiclass casters a lot more viable.. If even for 20 seconds at a time.

GeneralDiomedes
08-20-2007, 01:44 PM
Many casters utilize UMD, which is skill based.

Yep, that is what my Human Sorcerer uses it for. I can imagine Bards taking advantage of it as well.

Souless
08-20-2007, 02:03 PM
The whole purpose the Dev's nerfed the HV was because of the "batman" build which utilized scrolls for increased ppl performance and *would you believe, VERSITILITY*

Now there is a new mage build with 2 levels of fighter to do an end run around the HV nerf...better yet if the build utilizes a race not nerfed (dwarf or WF) they become potent fighter casters.

So my point is HV should be un-nerfed and maybe increased in power to just bring in line with the power of the other races. Currenetly, I haven't rolled another human anything (I use elfs or dwarfs now) because the human race is SEVERLY gimped.

Here is my suggestion for all the humans out there (reroll lol) or : Devs should allow HV to be VERSITAL...let casters gain some DC to some (not all) of their spells, let fighters gain some ac or + damage AND give back the permenant skill bonus. At present I'm lucky (with all the timers in place) to get 3 scrolls off while boosting...and as we all know when you need to roll even moderately say an 8...you will be lucky to get 1 spell to fire.

The Bytcher~

Dingo123
08-20-2007, 02:05 PM
Still, UMD is not a class feature of a Sorc or a Wizard. So although buffs to UMD may benefit YOUR build, it won't benefit the caster who doesn't take advantage of it. Consequently, a Sorc, and certainly a Wizard who doesn't take UMD is effectively left out in the cold.

skraus1
08-20-2007, 02:06 PM
They are +2 con and have 1 less cha/int than a drow, and with a free feat and +1 skill points per level. They can be made with 32pt builds as well. They therefore make excellent casters, bards and casting/healing clerics. The only other "casting" races are drow and dwarf for some classes/builds.

HV is useful to any character with UMD, which I use all the time on my sorc to rez and use other high level divine scrolls.

With that said, humans could use some more love, such as a +2 to a single stat at higher levels, say at the 15-16 range

GeneralDiomedes
08-20-2007, 02:19 PM
The whole purpose the Dev's nerfed the HV was because of the "batman" build which utilized scrolls for increased ppl performance and *would you believe, VERSITILITY*


Wrong. They nerfed it because Human Rogues could get a much higher Disable Device score than every other race.

muffinlad
08-20-2007, 02:25 PM
Simply returning HV to +1 per 7 levels (or so), making it top out at +3 at level 15, and returning it to the way it used to work would have been more balancing and less programmer intensive.

Dariun
08-20-2007, 02:28 PM
Wrong. They nerfed it because Human Rogues could get a much higher Disable Device score than every other race.

lol, no.

It was UMD and batman builds.





Edit: to clarify, yes Humans could get +4 DD v. Drow, but no one cared. It was the UMD and Batman builds that got people upset.

Dingo123
08-20-2007, 02:34 PM
And comparably useless to Wizards, and Sorcs who weren't specifically built for a particular skill.

MtnLion
08-20-2007, 02:37 PM
Wrong. They nerfed it because Human Rogues could get a much higher Disable Device score than every other race.

In light of the Cabal for One trap (on elite) I wouldn't call a couple of points "Much" higher. ;)

Where I felt it most was on my multi-classed's UMD, not so much on DD, or even Search.

Take note, my MC was built to use a specific skill, as any class can be, including casters.

Dingo123
08-20-2007, 03:12 PM
The changes already made to human versatility will benefit everyone specifically but not casters.

Stop threadjacking people. =)

This isn't about HV Nostalgia.

Dariun
08-20-2007, 03:33 PM
This isn't about HV Nostalgia.

I prefer the term "Residual Nerdrage" to "Nostalgia", if you please. :)


It's the only change to this game I haven't been able to shrug off. 50 years from now when they change the chocolate pudding to lime jello on Wednesday nights in my retirement home, you can expect to hear me gripe "Oh, so now they are ruining dessert on Wednesday's, huh?! Reminds me of that time Turbine nerfed Human Versatility back in 07!!! One of the Devs is probably working in the kitchen now!" :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Ziggy
08-20-2007, 03:54 PM
I prefer the term "Residual Nerdrage" to "Nostalgia", if you please. :)


It's the only change to this game I haven't been able to shrug off. 50 years from now when they change the chocolate pudding to lime jello on Wednesday nights in my retirement home, you can expect to hear me gripe "Oh, so now they are ruining dessert on Wednesday's, huh?! Reminds me of that time Turbine nerfed Human Versatility back in 07!!! One of the Devs is probably working in the kitchen now!" :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

TEK
08-20-2007, 03:58 PM
I prefer the term "Residual Nerdrage" to "Nostalgia", if you please. :)


It's the only change to this game I haven't been able to shrug off. 50 years from now when they change the chocolate pudding to lime jello on Wednesday nights in my retirement home, you can expect to hear me gripe "Oh, so now they are ruining dessert on Wednesday's, huh?! Reminds me of that time Turbine nerfed Human Versatility back in 07!!! One of the Devs is probably working in the kitchen now!" :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

QFT

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MtnLion
08-20-2007, 05:32 PM
The changes already made to human versatility will benefit everyone specifically but not casters.

Stop threadjacking people. =)

This isn't about HV Nostalgia.

It will benefit casters if you have a mind for it to benefit YOUR caster.

Dingo123
08-20-2007, 06:16 PM
It will benefit casters if you have a mind for it to benefit YOUR caster.


You mean anywhere near as much as +5 to hit, or +5 damage will benefit a melee combatant, or anywhere near as much as +5 skills will benefit a Rogue?

Let's be serious here.

sigtrent
08-20-2007, 06:29 PM
The whole purpose the Dev's nerfed the HV was because of the "batman" build which utilized scrolls for increased ppl performance and *would you believe, VERSITILITY*


Did a dev tell you that or is that just conjecture.

The developers I talked to mentioned that HV was a massive skill bonus for a very small cost and was not at all on par with other skill based enhancements that practicaly focred skill based characters to roll humans or be obsolecent by comparison.

sigtrent
08-20-2007, 06:32 PM
Edit: to clarify, yes Humans could get +4 DD v. Drow, but no one cared. It was the UMD and Batman builds that got people upset.

That would be an interesting theorey except that humans can still use UMD to do whatever they like and Batman builds work as well as they ever did. The loss of HV was not nearly as significant to them as the shift in Melee dynamics in the gianthold quests where the monsters could easily hit and kill the relatively fragile Batman tanks. So it wasn't their skills that died, it was thier tanking abbility and that has nothing to do with HV.

GeneralDiomedes
08-20-2007, 08:55 PM
lol, no.

It was UMD and batman builds.





Edit: to clarify, yes Humans could get +4 DD v. Drow, but no one cared. It was the UMD and Batman builds that got people upset.

Actually it was evasion in full plate that made people upset. I don't recall anyone complaining bitterly about HV actually. It was only after the 3.3 changes were announced that the more petty among the forum population decided to get their digs in.

And the official DEV explanation (from the respected HSinclair) was that Human Rogues could get higher rogue skills than any other race.

Dariun
08-20-2007, 08:58 PM
That would be an interesting theorey except that humans can still use UMD to do whatever they like

That's an interesting theory, except that the HV boost to UMD no longer stacks with Rogue/Ranger Action Boost and is not static and is thus worthless for things like regular wand/scroll usage or switching between various RR weapons/equipment.

So, if by "whatever they like" you mean Human non-rogue and non-rangers can still get a 20 second boost to UMD 5 times per rest, then I agree with you. But if by "whatever they like" you mean the HV bonus to UMD is as effective as it use to be, then I'm afraid I'll have to disagree just a little bit.

As for the HV change not hurting batman builds, I basically agree completely. I didn't say it was *effective* at ruining batman builds; I just said it was *intended* to.

Frankly, I think the developers involved had a poor understanding of the game mechanics and the balance between races and classes. In particular, there seemed to be a complete inability to understand the pure human rogues, rangers, and bards.

All the threads are gone now, but I remember a lot of silly dev comments like "rogues are primarily about DPS" and "all the races are balanced" and genius stuff like that that was generally supported (by devs or posters) with bizarre conflations of PnP and DDO rules, logical fallacies, half truths, and silly assertions that were either inspired by the worst kind of CYA PR BS or willful ignorance.

Not that it still bugs me or anything...

Dariun
08-20-2007, 09:08 PM
Actually it was evasion in full plate that made people upset. I don't recall anyone complaining bitterly about HV actually. It was only after the 3.3 changes were announced that the more petty among the forum population decided to get their digs in.

And the official DEV explanation (from the respected HSinclair) was that Human Rogues could get higher rogue skills than any other race.

You missed about 3000 posts if you don't remember the complaints about HV in 3.3.

HSinclair said a bunch of things, many of them like "it's hard to implement skills in this game like PnP so we think rogues should be a damage dealing class, wait till you see the lvl 13 feat!!!" (lol at crippling strike...).

I don't remember her or anyone really arguing the "human rogues can get higher rogue skills and this is breaking DDO!!!!!" No one has ever presented a convincing explanation for *why* it would matter if a human rogue had +4 DD v. drow or +3 spot v. drow or +2 search v. drow (drow had other advantages to compensate), especially since now drow have +1 DD v. human, +2 spot v. human and +3 search v. human (not to mention + 1 UMD, haggle, diplomacy, bluff, hide, move silently and +1 reflex), and no developers seem to be crying a river...

jkm
08-21-2007, 11:26 AM
it seems to me, that the changes to the boost are just a lazy way of getting the human in line with the other races enhancement-wise. of all the races, only halflings can argue that racial enhancements do nothing to make their class individually better. thus the improvements to both halflings and humans. yet they messed it up. sigh.

dwarves -> 12 enhancement lines
drow -> 11 enhancement lines (5 drow + 6 elven)
elves -> 11 enhancement lines
wf -> 9 enhancement lines
halflings -> 11 enhancement lines
humans -> 3 enhancement lines (adaptability and greater are the same as the other racial lines that count as 1)

of these only 1 enhancement (halfling companion) is a boost and it lasts 300 seconds.

humans get a skill boost for 20 seconds and improved recovery.

skill boost -> enough time to cast 3 scrolls, buy 18 potions, either 1 search and 1 disable or 2 searches. does not stack with any other boosts, puts other boosts on a timer, etc.

human improved recovery - this is the one that bothers me more than human versatility.

2 action points for 10% better healing. this is so horribly underpowered it isn't funny. so on a clw we get 1 extra point of healing, on a csw we get 3, on a heal scroll we get 10. this is the only non-attribute score enhancement humans get and its benefit over a quest, may, may be the equivalent of a dwarven toughness depending on your class.

what it should be is

HIR 1 - 1 AP 25% more healing capped at 10
HIR 2 - 2 AP 50% more healing capped at 20
HIR 3 - 3 AP 75% more healing capped at 30
HIR 4 - 4 AP 100% more healing capped at 40

Thame
08-21-2007, 11:31 AM
Human versatility is absolutely useless unles your using it for UMD. So a human rogue would benefit but it doesnt stack with the rogue skills boost so again no point in taking it. They need to put it back the way it was.
I have a wizard that WAS cha based as well as int and could use UMD to rez or heal on occasion. Used it to apply RR items so on so on, now hes gimped. I only use him to run POP for FOD or pks. No point using him elsewhere. My other toons that were UMD based I ended up having to delete them entirely. To make up for the lost UMD would take them till lvl 18 so no point to keep them.
But the devs will never understand nor care about this anyway.

Daddy
08-21-2007, 11:35 AM
if they'd just put it back the way is was everything would be great again. i still want my skills back.

jkm
08-21-2007, 11:46 AM
here are some human enhancement ideas

human improved weapon attack 1, 2 and human improved weapon damage 1, 2

humans gain a static attack and damage boosts to all weapons (could be by weapon type - simple, martial, exotic, etc)

human scroll alacrity 1, 2 - human scroll cooldowns are 25%, 50% faster

human casting alacrity 1, 2 - humans cast spells 5, 10% faster

human weapon affinity 1, 2 - humans gain a +1, +2 to bypassing weapon race restrictions

all skills 1-2-3-4

Sue_Dark
08-21-2007, 12:05 PM
Human versatility is absolutely useless unles your using it for UMD. So a human rogue would benefit but it doesnt stack with the rogue skills boost so again no point in taking it. They need to put it back the way it was.
I have a wizard that WAS cha based as well as int and could use UMD to rez or heal on occasion. Used it to apply RR items so on so on, now hes gimped. I only use him to run POP for FOD or pks. No point using him elsewhere. My other toons that were UMD based I ended up having to delete them entirely. To make up for the lost UMD would take them till lvl 18 so no point to keep them.
But the devs will never understand nor care about this anyway.

Now this I find really funny. Saying that the change of an enhancement broke your characters, screams to me that YOU broke them and then made up for that with HV. Arguing that a character is unplayable due to a single enhancement change is assinine, there are many many ways to get around the change. All it takes is a little thought.

BTW- none of the things I've tried involved re-rolling anyone. I reroll characters when I feel like trying something new, NOT because I am not happy with a skill or enhancement.

Dariun
08-21-2007, 12:34 PM
Now this I find really funny. Saying that the change of an enhancement broke your characters, screams to me that YOU broke them and then made up for that with HV. Arguing that a character is unplayable due to a single enhancement change is assinine, there are many many ways to get around the change. All it takes is a little thought.


Now this I find really funny. Because it shows a complete failure to understand.

Emili
08-21-2007, 12:53 PM
Now this I find really funny. Saying that the change of an enhancement broke your characters, screams to me that YOU broke them and then made up for that with HV. Arguing that a character is unplayable due to a single enhancement change is assinine, there are many many ways to get around the change. All it takes is a little thought.

BTW- none of the things I've tried involved re-rolling anyone. I reroll characters when I feel like trying something new, NOT because I am not happy with a skill or enhancement.

I doubt it truely broke a character to the point it's not playable but I can see how some would feel the nerf to it made their character less enjoyable to play. Now you cannot deny that. Across the borad on the nerf human characters lost 5 passive skill points to every skill... they no longer jumped, tumbled, hid, DD'd... or Umd'd as well passively.

On another note...
1.) A 20 second boost is hardly worth the AP spent. In the new coming update to it HV is still very weak in comparison to other racial enhancement lines. Ie.) a 20 second +5 ac boost 5 x rest is nothing compared to dwarven armour mastery III (+3 AC all the time) likewise a +5 20 second damage boost x5 is nothing compared to +2 passive axe or longsword damage. Take Madstone crator on elite and tell me how effective 5 20 second boosts would be in there between shrines then compare that to an elven attack II or dwarven damage II effectiveness. If you can tell me that madstone requires a total of 1 min and 40 seconds of actual mob encounter between shrines I'd agree but I bet my best guess isthe average madstone run takes a total of 20 minutes. Puls should you do speed runs nobody will care to wait for you to recharge or wait for your cooldowns...

2.) What's more a boost has a cooldown... there is a manditory 10 sec? between each boost... also within the first 2 seconds of boost you cannot perform another action, your character stops attacking, you cannot hit an active skill or feat button, I've tested this plenty of times with the old fighter action boosts, you cannot cleave, trip or even attack within the first two seconds of a boost so it's really an 18 second boost even with auto on or off... technically the first 2 seconds of a 20 second boost is unused which i suppose constitutes a DDO round? They should label it as 18 seconds.;)

I feel it's a step in the right direction but still the new HV is not that great of an enhancement line. HV would be a more useful emhancement as a +2 passive one to a skill, or to-hit, or damage, or DC of your choice. Plus what they should do is add another 7 enhancements to the human race since there are only 4 (technically 3). Choice is versitility.

Dirac
08-21-2007, 12:58 PM
I prefer the term "Residual Nerdrage" to "Nostalgia", if you please. :)


It's the only change to this game I haven't been able to shrug off. 50 years from now when they change the chocolate pudding to lime jello on Wednesday nights in my retirement home, you can expect to hear me gripe "Oh, so now they are ruining dessert on Wednesday's, huh?! Reminds me of that time Turbine nerfed Human Versatility back in 07!!! One of the Devs is probably working in the kitchen now!" :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Man Dariun, you and me both. Very funny. :) BTW, just because HV threads are not posted every day does not mean those affected forgot or forgave.

MtnLion
08-21-2007, 01:37 PM
You mean anywhere near as much as +5 to hit, or +5 damage will benefit a melee combatant, or anywhere near as much as +5 skills will benefit a Rogue?

Let's be serious here.

Okay, let's be serious, do you think that HV is that valuable for a fighter? To-hit bonus can be gathered with a fighter enhancement, for a stand-off in difference. Same with a rogue.

There is only one real value for HV and that is the UMD, which is just as valuable to a caster (a sorcerer casting divine spells, for instance) as any other class. You can make an argument that Multiclass benefit more from HV than pure classes, but that really is not what this thread is about.

There are valid reasons to roll a human wizard or sorcerer. There are also valid reasons to roll a human fighter or rogue. Enhancement chains that benefit all classes are available in lieu of HV, one need only determine what one needs.

Emili
08-21-2007, 01:53 PM
Okay, let's be serious, do you think that HV is that valuable for a fighter? To-hit bonus can be gathered with a fighter enhancement, for a stand-off in difference. Same with a rogue.

There is only one real value for HV and that is the UMD, which is just as valuable to a caster (a sorcerer casting divine spells, for instance) as any other class. You can make an argument that Multiclass benefit more from HV than pure classes, but that really is not what this thread is about.

There are valid reasons to roll a human wizard or sorcerer. There are also valid reasons to roll a human fighter or rogue. Enhancement chains that benefit all classes are available in lieu of HV, one need only determine what one needs.

You get that same thing in every other race should you wish to stick to straight class enhancements on an elven wiz you can just as well as a human... the only reason to be human are the extra feat and skill points alloted by core rule because technically the only two useful enhancements among a human are adaptability as it stands right now.

MtnLion
08-21-2007, 01:54 PM
You get that same thing in every other race should you wish to stick to straight class enhancements on an elven wiz you can just as well as a human... the only reason to be human are the extra feat and skill points alloted by core rule because technically the only two useful enhancements among a human are adaptability as it stands right now.

Thanks, I think I was headed that way as I wrote that last line. The point is that the proposed HV line introduces nothing new for any class. The OP though is asking for new enhancements to benefit his particular build (I assume human wizard that benefits most from HA).

SneakThief
08-21-2007, 03:05 PM
That argument is kind of backwards... of all the casters... only ONE has UMD. So to say that it's "balanced" because many Sorcs and some Wizards make use of a single particular skill (that they don't even have on their classlist) is backwards.

Any Paladin could use the same argument... in fact, any FIGHTER could.

So no, that argument doesn't fly.

Skills my casters use regularly:
UMD
Diplomacy
Haggle
Jump
Tumble
Concentration
Balance

A bump to any one of those is nice, expecially a stackable bump.

I personally also would use the AC, and as you said saves.
Plenty of clerics and bards actually fight, and every little bit of boost makes a difference.

Yeah ... most Wiz/Sorc are going to be using 2/5 of them, but thats hardly nothing.

Dingo123
08-21-2007, 03:16 PM
Skills my casters use regularly:
UMD
Diplomacy
Haggle
Jump
Tumble
Concentration
Balance

A bump to any one of those is nice, expecially a stackable bump.

I personally also would use the AC, and as you said saves.
Plenty of clerics and bards actually fight, and every little bit of boost makes a difference.

Yeah ... most Wiz/Sorc are going to be using 2/5 of them, but thats hardly nothing.


But again, and look at it... which of these is made to benefit the human caster?

I mean you're listing cross class skills for god sake, things that are secondary in purpose.

If you walked into a group and were like Hey guys, I know I'm level 6 but I never bothered to put any points into my relevant stat... but I've got a great tumble! you'd be thrown out of the team.

Further, benefits to skills benefit everyone else, if not more so, than they do Casters.

Finally,I've never said get rid of the skill based enhancement, I recognize that many builds depend on it.

What I DID say is take away one of the TWO fighter centric enhancements (accuracy AND damage? While casters get nothing?) and turn it into a Caster centric HV enhancement.

Hvymetal
08-21-2007, 07:49 PM
But again, and look at it... which of these is made to benefit the human caster?

I mean you're listing cross class skills for god sake, things that are secondary in purpose.

If you walked into a group and were like Hey guys, I know I'm level 6 but I never bothered to put any points into my relevant stat... but I've got a great tumble! you'd be thrown out of the team.

Further, benefits to skills benefit everyone else, if not more so, than they do Casters.

Finally,I've never said get rid of the skill based enhancement, I recognize that many builds depend on it.

What I DID say is take away one of the TWO fighter centric enhancements (accuracy AND damage? While casters get nothing?) and turn it into a Caster centric HV enhancement.
Just curious, do you feel that your human caster cannot function right now as things are? Why do you feel that human casters need a human-centric enhancement?

Dingo123
08-21-2007, 08:17 PM
Just curious, do you feel that your human caster cannot function right now as things are? Why do you feel that human casters need a human-centric enhancement?


You could strip away every enhancement in the game and every single character out there would still be "functional". Clerics could still heal, Fighters could still swing a sword, Dwarves would still take a lot of hits.

The point isn't making it "functional", it's about making it better. That's why they're called "enhancements".

Currently, Human Enhancements are far more geared towards combatants and skills based characters.

Seriously, who is going to get more use out of Human Improved Recovery... a Wizard, or a Barbarian?

Then consider Human Adaptibility. Let's say a Sorc takes +1 to Charisma, and a Fighter takes +1 to strength.

Who sees that enhancement put to use more often? The Fighter, far far more often. The number of spells a Sorceror casts is neglible compared to the number of times a Fighter swings his sword. You could argue that charisma benefits certain skills for Sorcs, such as UMD... well, Strength benefits certain skills for Fighters, as well as giving a boost to encumbrance.

Net Win is the Fighter, again.

The with the proposed changes to Human Versatility, each and all benefit others far more than they do Sorcs, Wizards, etc etc...


Humans seemed to be geared AGAINST Casters as the benefits for Casters are mediocre compared to that of meleeists.