PDA

View Full Version : feats



Dariun
08-18-2007, 11:13 AM
I have a new human bard and could use some advice on feats.

The build is:

str -- 16
dex -- 12
con -- 12
int -- 8
wis -- 8
cha -- 16

I'll probably solo a lot or play in small groups, so he is meant to be a multipurpose character (some healing, some buffing, some crowd control, some melee).

I took Extend and Mental Toughness as first level feats, but I'm thinking of dropping Mental Toughness for either Spell Focus: Enchantment or Toughness.

Is Extend the best metamagic for bards? Or perhaps Heighten?

TIA.

Quartzite
08-18-2007, 11:32 AM
It really depends on what you want to do. You didn't start with an 18 Cha, so your CC won't be the most reliable. Heighten and Spell Focus are useful if you want to compensate for your low starting Cha and do better at CC. Keeping Mental Toughness will help keep you strong at buffing. Extend is great for Bards that buff, so again it seems to be pushing you in that direction. And with 16 Str you'll probably be wanting to keep a lot of buffs on yourself.

Toughness is always good for staying alive, but even better if you have a level of Fighter or Barbarian (so you can get +5 HP from the enhancement).

Do you want to specialise or diversify? I'd suggest given what you said, Heighten might be a good choice. But if so, you should have Hypnotise, Otto's, Hypnotic Pattern and such other CC spell options.

Do you plan on taking either of the specialisations? Warchanter, Spellsinger or Virtuoso? It's good to plan around whichever one them you prefer, or not take one at all.

Dariun
08-18-2007, 12:02 PM
Yeah, I know CC won't be as great with 16 CHA, which is why I was thinking spell focus: enchantment and heighten. I was definitely going to take Hypnotism, Ottos, and some of the Charm/Suggestion spells, so I will have a lot of enchantment spells.

I'm not sure about the specilizations. I've been having trouble finding all of the details and pre-reqs. I guess I will have to find those (release notes from one of the recent updates?) before deciding.

I wasn't planning on taking a lvl of fighter, but I could definitly work one in. If I end up more melee focus that might make sense.

Dariun
08-18-2007, 12:07 PM
OK, found the release notes.

Spellsinger actually sounds fairly good, esp. since I will either have spell focus: ench, mental toughness or both.



Spellsinger
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Music of Energy 2, Bard Skill: Concentration 2, Bard Song Magic 2, Bard Lyric of Song 1, Any one of the following: Magical Training, Mental Toughness, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Empower Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell
Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, +100 Spell Points, and the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell costs.

Quartzite
08-18-2007, 12:38 PM
Yeah, if you pick up Spellsinger your CC becomes even better. It makes you more into a caster-focused bard, but that sounds to be what you were heading towards anyway. With 16 Str you'll be able to hold your own, and then you can just put the rest of your Feats into caster things to make up for the 16 Cha. That'd be my opinion, anyway. CC makes soloing and small groups so easy, just keep a shield on and take them on one at a time. Your songs should keep you hitting with longswords/ rapiers.

A_Sheep
08-18-2007, 05:56 PM
Yeah, I'd take Spell Focus: Enchant before Heighten. Getting +1 to the DC's with no increased mana costs is pretty nice.

Toughness is probably something I'd do without in your position. It's nice, but not too nice.

nbhs275
08-18-2007, 10:15 PM
Toughness isn't great when you don't have access to the enhancements to really pump it up.

If your planning on meleeing much then Power Attack may be a good choice.

Mental toughness is a good way to access spellsinger, for a total 175 extra SP at 14.

Spell Focus: Enchantment. Not so much. Its a rather focused feat, that will only benifit your enchantment spells. IMHO, Fear is probably the most efficient CC spells. It's quick, covers a good area, and once they fail a save they can't do anything for a minute. AND its not reliant on them not getting hit.

Extend is just undeniably great. Longer hastes, displacements, rages..everything.

Heighten: Nope. Too much turning it on and off. Would only suggest this on a pure CC bard.


And hell, there is always Skill Focus: UMD. Very few ppl can say they have too much UMD.

Freeman
08-19-2007, 01:45 AM
First, you can CC fine with even if you start with a 16 Charisma. The DC of your spells will only be 1 different from a maxed Charisma bard. In the long run, your equipment, feats, and enhancements will make a larger difference overall.(Those can change the DC of your spells by as much as +12) My recommended bard feats are as follows:

SF: UMD - Can't go wrong with this one
Mental Toughness - More spell points are good.
Extend - Great for buffs, but I wouldn't take it until 6th level. You don't have many spells to extend or the spell points to support it before that.
Spell Focus: Enchantment - Your best spells are enchantment, so use them(Holds, Dances, etc)
Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment - Same as above
Heighten - Without this, your low-level spells will fall far behind in usefulness, but I wouldn't take it until level 9. I keep it on all the time, and rarely run low on spell points.
Improved Mental Toughness - More spell points again.

You'll notice that I listed 7 feats, and it is only possible to get 6 on a pure bard currently. Out of the ones I have listed, I do not have Improved Mental Toughness. I swapped it out for Heighten awhile back, and I haven't regretted it at all.

Dariun
08-19-2007, 11:19 AM
Thanks for the advice. After watching kobold after kobold save against my Hypnotism, I switched out extend for spell focus: enchantment, then took greater spell focus: enchantment at lvl 3.

So, for now I'm going with:

lvl 1: mental toughness, SF: enchant
lvl 3: GSF: enchant
lvl 6: extend
lvl 9: heighten or skill focus: UMD
lvl 12: ?

I'm definitely going with enchantment spells for early crowd control (charm person, hypnotism, ottos, hold, suggestion, charm monster). If I start relying on other spells for CC, I might drop GSF: enchant and pick up a different feat.


Bonus question:
For low dex bards, are adamantine chain shirts the best armor?

Mad_Bombardier
08-19-2007, 12:55 PM
Bonus question:
For low dex bards, are adamantine chain shirts the best armor?It's only DR1/Adamantine for light armor such as Chain Shirts, which won't even be noticable. I'd just go with the maximum enchantment (+) Chain Shirt you can find. Mithral Breasplates will offer the most armor bonus (+1 over Chain Shirt), but are rare.

Mithral Chainmail or Elven Chain offer the same armor as Mith BP with less DEX, so are a good fit and not as sought after. However, I see them less than Mithral Breastplates. :(

A_Sheep
08-19-2007, 03:57 PM
Improved Critical: Piercing would be my first choice on level 12 feats. It's a very large increase in damage on a rapier.

EinarMal
08-19-2007, 05:27 PM
Bonus question:
For low dex bards, are adamantine chain shirts the best armor?

Eventually your AC will far too far behind to be much use even with a +5 chain shirt/mithral breastplate. Leveling up they can help. In the end your going to want some fearsome armor and heavy fort + displacement/blur. That is going to be your best bet long run. Armor helps though getting to there.

As far as feats go people have listed all the obvious ones. I would probably go with IC Piercing to beef up your combat a bit since all of the other feats you have are more casting related. If you go two handed a lot (which you have to use a quarterstaff) then power attack.

nbhs275
08-20-2007, 11:51 AM
Eventually your AC will far too far behind to be much use even with a +5 chain shirt/mithral breastplate. Leveling up they can help. In the end your going to want some fearsome armor and heavy fort + displacement/blur. That is going to be your best bet long run. Armor helps though getting to there.

As far as feats go people have listed all the obvious ones. I would probably go with IC Piercing to beef up your combat a bit since all of the other feats you have are more casting related. If you go two handed a lot (which you have to use a quarterstaff) then power attack.

That is unless you work toward AC. Although i don't use it on my bard, Quickeyez(An exceptional bard in my opinion) has a 51 AC without Combat expertise. So it is possible for you to have a comprable, working AC on a bard. Though it does take a few specific items and stats.

EinarMal
08-20-2007, 12:40 PM
That is unless you work toward AC. Although i don't use it on my bard, Quickeyez(An exceptional bard in my opinion) has a 51 AC without Combat expertise. So it is possible for you to have a comprable, working AC on a bard. Though it does take a few specific items and stats.

Yeah it is definitely possible. The OP has a starting dex of 12 though so even filling out a mithral breastplate as a human won't be easy. You also have to be willing to "give up" several gear slots to AC items and have to use a shield.

Given that the OP looks more casting focused to me it probably wouldn't be worth it to go for 50+ AC as that would take a lot of gear to get there.

In the end to me I would just look for a decent fearsome chain shirt as probably your best bet. If you can get the gear though knock yourself out! If you can get your AC above 50 then it will definitely help even on 14 elite content.