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View Full Version : Please give casters non-sp consuming abilities.



rikori2
08-16-2007, 03:17 PM
In D&D, there are feats called "Reserve feats" that give Wizards and Sorcerers the ability to do a damaging, magical attack at will. It is not as powerful as most of their spells. So my proposal for the DDO feat is a reserve feat that's something like this:

-5 sp per character level.
1d6+Int or Cha damage.
Reflex Save
1 attack per round (it is a effectively a spell.)

For obvious reasons, you can't use meta-magic feats with it. Of course, the exact feat would have to be balanced correctly. In D&D, I seem to remember people complain it was overpowered, but DDO could balance it. This could also inspire some new enhancements, such as:

Improved "Feat Name" I
1 AP
+1d6 damage to reserve attacks
Improved "Feat Name" II
2 AP
+2d6 damage to reserve attacks
etc.

I believe this would let spell casters have a weak attack that they could "spam." I think giving people the option of having a "spam-able" magic attack would give some people great enjoyment, and if the Devs can add that without unbalancing the game, which I believe they can easily do, I think as a community we should encourage them to. :)

Ziggy
08-16-2007, 03:19 PM
yeah i got no idea what feat your talking about.

It doesnt sound like a good idea to me either way.

The_Cataclysm
08-16-2007, 03:29 PM
Pretty sure you are talking about the warlock ability. They work quite different compared to wizards and sorcerers.

DaveyCrockett
08-16-2007, 03:35 PM
What Cat said. Eldritch Blast/Eldritch Gaive(sp?) are Warlock abilities.

Crarites
08-16-2007, 03:40 PM
heh Spell Fire... mmmmm forgotten realms setting.

In_Like_Flynn
08-16-2007, 03:58 PM
How about no?

Twerpp
08-16-2007, 04:00 PM
Oh yeah and you cant neglect the fighters, let us sacrifice 1 BAB for a spell!:D :D

Twerpp
08-16-2007, 04:01 PM
Yeah if yer gonna do that just ask for warlocks. Are there warlocks in Eberron?

Ziggy
08-16-2007, 04:02 PM
He's referring to Reserve Feats, but got the name mixed up.
They require you to sacrifice a certain spell of a certain level, leaving it unused basically, and gives you a weaker, at-will ability.
Sounds a bit like dragon marks.:D

EDIT: Mark of stealth

Symar-FangofLloth
08-16-2007, 04:04 PM
He's referring to Reserve Feats, but got the name mixed up.
They require you to sacrifice a certain spell of a certain level, leaving it unused basically, and gives you a weaker, at-will ability.

Uska
08-16-2007, 04:06 PM
Umm an ability for an optional class so lets see umm NO

rikori2
08-16-2007, 05:20 PM
Oh yeah and you cant neglect the fighters, let us sacrifice 1 BAB for a spell!:D :D

As somebody mentioned, fighters can get dragon marks.


He's referring to Reserve Feats, but got the name mixed up.
They require you to sacrifice a certain spell of a certain level, leaving it unused basically, and gives you a weaker, at-will ability.

Thanks, I'll fix my original post.

Also, people seem to be soo resistant to their game being changed in any way, shape or form, yet complain about the lack of updates. I don't envy the developers...

Ghoste
08-16-2007, 05:22 PM
Yeah if yer gonna do that just ask for warlocks. Are there warlocks in Eberron?
Not that I have specifically heard of, but there is nothing that I know of about Eberron that would prevent supernatural bonds that allow for warlocks to gain their powers.

Freeman
08-16-2007, 07:08 PM
Give wizards and sorcs a non-sp consuming ability? Sure. They are called melee or ranged attacks. No spell points consumed, and the damage is determined by the weapon you are using. Add in a few scrolls of Tenser's Transformation, and you'll be doing decent damage. Not what you had in mind? Then buy some Magic Missile wands. I believe they sell 3rd level wands, at least. You can't miss, and you do 2d4 + 2 damage each shot. From my experience, most casters don't run out of spell points enough to be willing to give up a spell slot. There might be a few who would do it though.

And people complain about the lack of content, not the lack of updates. People can disagree with an idea based on its own merits, so don't assume they are simply resisting change. If you want to convince others, support your original proposal instead of attacking the motivation of those who disagree with you.

Kethir
08-16-2007, 07:30 PM
I'd say that what you are asking for would require fair amounts of developer time to implement (balancing time).

The benefit? Nominal. Unless a caster does massive damage, it doesn't kill anything. BTW, 5 sps for 1d6+5 damage (20 charisma) with a reflex save is really cost ineffective. For 10 sps, you get 1d6/level +20-50% potency - leaving out enhancements. Niac's is more than 100% of your "reserve" ability, for 100% of the cost.

If you're looking for a cheap spell for decent damage, use niac's. As a sorceror, there's no reason why not to spam niac's like most people swing a sword.

(I rolled a lowbie recently, every quest, the arcanes cast virtually no spells. Coming to a rest shrine with full or 80% mana seems like a real waste. If you're a caster, just cast EVERY SINGLE SPELL YOU CAN AS OFTEN AS YOU CAN. Don't worry about running out of mana, you'd be the same as a mage who "saves" mana, just your "saving" is on the back end instead of the front end)

Yshkabibble
08-16-2007, 11:31 PM
Pick up a crossbow ya lazy twitchy finger.

RobbinB
08-17-2007, 06:09 AM
Pick up a crossbow ya lazy twitchy finger.

If the OP is anything like me, his caster's inventory is probably so jam-packed he doesnt have room for xbows (and ammunition for them).

I would support the idea. As long as it's balanced right, I don't see the harm. I wouldn't put it at the top of the list of things devs should put time into (more inventory plz!!!!), but I don't see the harm.

llevenbaxx
08-17-2007, 07:04 AM
Pick up a crossbow ya lazy twitchy finger.

lol QFT. I carry a nice selection of bows around to use between spells. A couple(2-3) stacks of House D returning arrows is all you need for a good while and Im a pack rat.

Freeman
08-17-2007, 07:11 AM
lol QFT. I carry a nice selection of bows around to use between spells. A couple(2-3) stacks of House D returning arrows is all you need for a good while and Im a pack rat.

Or just pick up a wand of Flame Arrow. 50 charges * 50 arrows/bolts = 2500 Flaming arrows/bolts. It would take you a long time to go through all of those, even taking into account that most will probably be destroyed at the end of the quest. And it would only take up one slot for the wand, since the ammunition would be equipped.

Missing_Minds
08-17-2007, 07:18 AM
I have no problem with the OP suggesting this, just as I have no problem saying "No thanks." to the idea.

I wouldn't mind seeing the feat Arcane Strike added into the game, however.

Prinstoni
08-17-2007, 07:31 AM
Also, people seem to be soo resistant to their game being changed in any way, shape or form, yet complain about the lack of updates. I don't envy the developers...

Changes and updates are two completely different things. Changes 90% of the time end up in NERFS, updates are when new quests are added.

STOP CHANGING THE CONTENT AND ADD SOME NEW QUESTS!!!

I haven't played in over a week btw because this game is soooooooo boring now.

HOW ABOUT SOME NEW CONTENT INSTEAD OF NEW AND INVENTIVE WAYS TO **** US OFF DEVS?

Freeman
08-17-2007, 07:33 AM
Also, the True Strike spell would also be a great addition, giving casters the ability to hit virtually every time they use the spell.

Olaff
08-17-2007, 07:54 AM
"Please give casters non-sp consuming abilities. "

You've already got them.

They're called crossbows. ;)

EDIT: Guess I shoulda read the whole thread first. Meh.

Missing_Minds
08-17-2007, 08:25 AM
Also, the True Strike spell would also be a great addition, giving casters the ability to hit virtually every time they use the spell.

I'm honestly amazed they never bothered to code that simple one in. And it sure as heck wouldn't be game breaking. I mean per spell, I don't think you can make potions of it. Clickies don't work fast in battle, so what would it matter if it was included?

Snike
08-17-2007, 04:59 PM
You do have none SP abilities. It's called attack.

Katrina
08-17-2007, 05:39 PM
Yeah if yer gonna do that just ask for warlocks. Are there warlocks in Eberron?

Yes
they're more often then not 'monsterous' casters such as primordial giants.

Mercules
08-17-2007, 05:44 PM
+(X) (Elemental Damage) Repeating (Heavy/Light) Crossbow of Pure Good. Add in a slot of House D returning Arrows and a wand of Fire Arrow and you have basically all the bolts you will need for a good long time. The repeater doesn't do that bad of damage either. Hitting means you will have had to boost your Dex up at character creation or some other time. Tenser's Transformation wouldn't hurt either. Basically, this only costs you a feat.

That is one option, my other is wands. If you pick up collectibles(which will be made less painful in the next Mod) you will get Fireball and Lightning Bolt wands like crazy. They are only level 5 but you are using them to augment damage without using SPs and you don't want them to draw agro. Wait until you see a tank intimidate or the 2handed melee person has sufficiently smacked all those mobs enough and throw in a Fireball. Lightning bolt is more precise allowing you to target the same target that someone is beating on and just adding a tiny bit more damage. These were great help in the mid-range levels for conserving SPs and still dealing damage.

Magic Missle CL3 or CL5 are easy to find as well and you can buy the CL3 ones in the marketplace tent for a good price. You can also buy Scorching Ray wands and those do 4d8 per charge and are single target. I found a Niac's 3 wand the other day. Not good for the caster who found it, but my level 4 WF Fighter with a splash of Wiz used it to good effect for killing things with DR if he didn't have the right weapon to bypass it.

These things already exist, if you are willing to do a tiny bit more work for them.

Staedtler
08-17-2007, 07:22 PM
As a wonderful sidenote: reserve feats have been banned in all the campaigns I know of. They're game-breakingly powerful.

Symar-FangofLloth
08-17-2007, 07:37 PM
As a wonderful sidenote: reserve feats have been banned in all the campaigns I know of. They're game-breakingly powerful.

Lemme guess, Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell are also banned.
Anyway, I agree that there's not much point to putting such an ability into the game.

Ishturi
08-19-2007, 06:01 AM
..... I have 4 words for everyone who agrees with this ability:

MANANGE YOUR MANA BETTER.

If you are running out of mana at higher levels, you aren't managing it correctly. I'm a lvl 14 sorc, human, no tomes, 28 point build and I almost NEVER run out of mana unless I'm either A: goofing off or B: in a 3-person group.

Also, non-sp consuming abilities = scrolls. you spend gp instead of sp.

and yes, Crossbows work well too (House D Favor + one good crossbow = good for a while).

mgoldb2
08-19-2007, 06:12 AM
Pick up a crossbow ya lazy twitchy finger.

You do have none SP abilities. It's called attack.

+(X) (Elemental Damage) Repeating (Heavy/Light) Crossbow of Pure Good. Add in a slot of House D returning Arrows and a wand of Fire Arrow and you have basically all the bolts you will need for a good long time. The repeater doesn't do that bad of damage either. Hitting means you will have had to boost your Dex up at character creation or some other time. Tenser's Transformation wouldn't hurt either. Basically, this only costs you a feat

Will everyone be more willing to listen to the OP idea once they add this to pnp. I don’t know exactly what they doing but I would not be surprise if 4ed add something very similar to his idea. The interview from gencon said they want to make sure a caster always have something to do in combat and never have to pull out a crossbow. He said something like caster is all about using magical energy at your enemies and we want to make sure they can always do so every battle. (That is paraphrase)

Personally I see nothing game breaking with his idea. SO instead of using a crossbow he can shoot rays out of his hand that do ~ the same damage. Benefit unlimited ammo but nothing that going to break the game.

Spell
08-19-2007, 09:38 AM
Wouldn't zero sp spells be considered the pnp cantrips(lvl spells)?!

I would love to see these.
Some are useful at very low level.

Jefechao
08-19-2007, 01:07 PM
Sad to see how few of you actually play PnP. As someone mentioned it is a real feat now. And for whichever poster said its banned in all his campaigns how sad you must have terrible sessions. A feat is a feat people the man wants something from PnP to come into the game. Whats the big deal? The idea is fine. He wants to continually cast some low level spells.

Basically it breaks down to this in PnP if you take a reserve feat for fire. If you have at least one fire type spell above a certain level in your spells for the day as long as that spell is there you can summon a small fire attack with the damage based off the level of the spell you have in reserve. Its fairly simple. There are elemental version of each kind. Also a few others for movement and vision and such.

They arent over powered. They are useful.

In DDO it would be a great addition. Not because people cant manage there spells but because it gives caster something to do when they dont need to blow their mana. Maybe a only a couple of guys come through the door. so instead of blowing any real mana he tosses a few of these while the fighters play clean up. It gives casters something to do when its not urgent enough to warrant a spell. Like how many people see a firewall go up just for one guy? Thats a bored caster. He wants to play too.

As far as the bow and crossbow comments. There wizards for crying out loud. their BAB sucks and while they could go buy a whole bunch of scrolls of tensers this is a waste for just a few shots every once in a while.

To the OP good thought. there isnt any reason not to give it, and I will tell you the perfect reason to give it to casters. Because when we are all standing outside the quest waiting for that late guy. I would love to be able to shoot some type of magical attack while all the twitching roguers and fighters swing their weapons all over the place. Damn show offs :)

GeneralDiomedes
08-19-2007, 01:35 PM
As far as the bow and crossbow comments. There wizards for crying out loud. their BAB sucks and while they could go buy a whole bunch of scrolls of tensers this is a waste for just a few shots every once in a while.


Not to mention that switching from a crossbow to your scepters when you want to cast is incredibly annoying and dangerous at times. I contribute more effectively when I'm concentrating on spellcasting. Having an at-will spell like ability would be a nice option .. but would it be worth developer time?

GlassCannon
08-19-2007, 01:44 PM
Tenser's... my Sorc gets +1 CON and some extra swings from Tenser's. This puts her CON at an odd number. This is not and never will be an effective solution. If I have to go melee I would rather recall out and get mana. If I can't re-enter and had to either use my mana or let the party wipe from a totally unexpected *whatever happened*, which has occurred in uncommon occasion, wherein not returning is an extremely rare occasion, I am forced to rely on Mnemonic potions. If I am out of those, I would prefer a non-SP using cantrip or ability in that extremely rare case. Something useable repeatedly and powerful enough to stop or destroy at least a singular entity of my level within a reasonable amount of time.

if Tenser's Transformation stacked with everything else, then I would use it.

GeneralDiomedes
08-19-2007, 01:53 PM
if Tenser's Transformation stacked with everything else, then I would use it.

Actually Divine Power clickies are a much better solution.

Staedtler
08-19-2007, 03:23 PM
Lemme guess, Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell are also banned.

Reserve feats can't be counterspelled, don't provoke attacks of opportunity, ignore spell resistance and have no material component. I don't think it's too uncommon for DMs to rule certain additions to the game as overpowering. The spell Power Word Pain is another good example of an overpowered addition to the game.

Anyway, the point of reserve feats is to give casters who need to do damage EVERY round a means to do that. Since DDO already gives you a vast amount of spellpoints there's really no reason why you can't cast a regular spell at every encounter. If spellcasting ain't broke, don't fix it.

Jefechao
08-19-2007, 04:58 PM
I dont recall that they ignore spell resistance. But regardless in this game it wouldnt matter since spell resistance doesnt affect damage spells. And I disagree that there are enough spell points. I think it would be a welcome addition and there are tons of things that are broke but could still use some more things added to it.

I wouldnt say this was an urgent one but certainly could be a future addition.

rikori2
08-19-2007, 06:15 PM
Reserve feats can't be counterspelled, don't provoke attacks of opportunity, ignore spell resistance and have no material component. I don't think it's too uncommon for DMs to rule certain additions to the game as overpowering. The spell Power Word Pain is another good example of an overpowered addition to the game.

Anyway, the point of reserve feats is to give casters who need to do damage EVERY round a means to do that. Since DDO already gives you a vast amount of spellpoints there's really no reason why you can't cast a regular spell at every encounter. If spellcasting ain't broke, don't fix it.

Counterspell isn't in DDO, neither are AoO, spell resistance doesn't work against damaging spells and many spells already don't have materials components. You're wrong on almost all counts. Also, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude is flawed. In fact, that belief has actually cost companies that didn't move into the consumer oriented marketing era.

Dingo123
08-19-2007, 06:34 PM
This would be an EXCELLENT addition for Crowd Controlling Sorcerors and definitely a Boon to Wizards.

I'm in favor of this idea all day long, twice on sunday.

Make it a single target elemental based attack that deals Your Level+Ability Score+1d10 damage that is usable at will. At the highest levels with some very nice gear most arcanists will be doing around 14+11+5.5 damage a hit. Around 30 damage. Comparitively speaking. That's jack squat... but it IS something.

Staedtler
08-19-2007, 07:15 PM
Counterspell isn't in DDO, neither are AoO, spell resistance doesn't work against damaging spells and many spells already don't have materials components. You're wrong on almost all counts. Also, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude is flawed. In fact, that belief has actually cost companies that didn't move into the consumer oriented marketing era.

My point was that in a pen and paper game reserve feats are overpowered and hence may be justifiably banned.

Sure, it would be neat if they were added but this should be an extremely low priority because of niche it fills.