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View Full Version : Splash of Sorcerer? What do you think?



barabel
08-16-2007, 11:26 AM
I currently have a Level 10 Human Bard I originally created as my Hagglebot.

She has turned out to be pretty decent with crowd control and buffing.

I have been tempted recently to experiment with giving her a single level of Sorcerer primarily for more spell points.

I wanted to see what people though about adding a level of sorcerer into the mix.

Does anyone know how the level of sorcerer would affect mana boosting items? If I had a level of Sorcerer and had a Pearl of Power, would it double the SP still?

Also, 1 level of sorcerer should eliminate UMD for arcane scrolls and wands too, right? (Wands aren't a big deal for me, but some higher level scrolls can be tougher to cast - arcane spell failure non-withstanding).

Quartzite
08-16-2007, 12:11 PM
If you need more SP look at Spellsinger first, if you already have that and still want more, a level of Sorc splashed might be beneficial, but just know that at level 16 you'll miss level 6 spells by splashing.

Your UMD should scale better than the DC on items, so the closer you get to max level the harder and harder it'll become to fail any Arcane wands/ scrolls. The level of Sorc will only negate UMD checks for lower level wands/ scrolls, too. There's a caster level check for wands/ scrolls above your class level, though I forget how it works.

You won't get 2x benefit from Power or Wizardry items, either. You'll only get 1/14 extra because of the diluted Sorc levels.

Overall, I'd say don't do it. Get Spellsinger and you should have plenty of SP. It's not worth losing a Bard caster level over this late in the game. Especially with level 6 Bard spells around the corner.

Girevik
08-16-2007, 12:40 PM
Also, 1 level of sorcerer should eliminate UMD for arcane scrolls and wands too, right?

Not exactly.

For wands, yes. With wands, if you have any levels in the class, you can use any wand that has a spell from anywhere in that class's spell list with no UMD check (assuming you meet the character level requirement of the wand).

For scrolls, not so much. You can only use scrolls with no UMD check for spells that you could have based on your class level. So, with one level of Sorcerer only 1st level arcane scrolls would be usable without a UMD roll. (And, they would still be susceptable to Arcane Spell Failure from your Chain shirt, or whatever armor you are wearing.) 2nd and higher would require UMD rolls as well.

barabel
08-16-2007, 02:03 PM
Good information to know about the scrolls. I guess I'll keep pumping up my UMD to get around that. It's currently at 27 (unbuffed).

:)

Scroll/Wand UMD aside, I'm still a bit on the fence about this though. Looking at the lvl 6 Bard spells I'm not really thrilled about the choices as I see them on the SRD. The only interesting choice I see in the Spell Compendium is Dirge. Losing access till the next level bump doesn't have me too worried. Unless you guys see a great Lvl 6 spell that I'm missing.

:confused:

I guess it still settles down to spell points. I do have my Bard re-speced to be a Spellsinger and the extra 100 sp do come in handy, but buffing, cc spells and haste chews through them pretty quickly. I'm still trying to get better gear to help with that.

Spakerman
08-17-2007, 09:35 AM
I am making a bard and plan to be 10/4 bard/sorc. currently I'm 3/1 and I'll tell you, with 470 sp at level 4 it's been awesome so far.

You DO get the doubled SP from power and wizardry items. I'm playing more as a healer/party support build and it's really all experimental for me but I'm enjoying it immensely.

I say if you want to do it ... do it.

rimble
08-17-2007, 09:48 AM
You DO get the doubled SP from power and wizardry items.

For now. At higher level your bonus will be 'pro-rated' based on your sorcerer levels. A 14th level Sorcerer should get 200% from those items, at level 14 with 4 levels of Sorcerer you should get about 125%.

Cinwulf
08-17-2007, 09:51 AM
To help clarify:

The Sorcerer class ability to gain more Spell Points from items is based on the ratio of Sorcerer levels to other class levels. A pure sorcerer gains +100%, a 5 Sorcerer / 5 Fighter gains +50%, a 6 Sorcerer / 2 Bard gains +75% etc.


http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1122537#post1122537

barabel
08-17-2007, 10:03 AM
Cinwulf, I appreciate the link. That was just the official info I was looking for regarding the new effect of Power/Wizardy items.

Based on this, I'm seeing more upside than downside. I don't know how many levels of Sorcerer I will eventually take, but I think of my remaining 4 levels, I'll make 1 Sorcerer. After the next level bump, maybe splash in more.

I really appreciate the constructive feedback folks

Thanks!

smyter
08-17-2007, 10:33 AM
have you used the character planner to find out how many sp you will be gaining? I am guessing it to be about 180-200. what you loose is: 1 level of bard spells, 1 song/rest, your 4th attack (at lvl 12), and 1 BAB, 1/2 a point toward UMD, and 2 HP. If you add another lvl or soc, you will loose an inspired attack enhancement. I guess what you have to ask yourself is if you are really struggling for sp before a shrine shows up. On my caster bard, the answer is a huge no. On my warchanter, I could use more sp.. but cannot afford loosing the 4th attack at lvl 14.

Freeman
08-17-2007, 10:41 AM
You also won't get the +1/+1 to Inspire Courage at level 14 yet, and the spell penetration rolls will be one less than a full bard. I generally don't have a problem with spell points. With spellsinger and a Power 8 item, I have 900 spell points. I usually end up burning the last of them on extra spells before I shrine.

Mad_Bombardier
08-17-2007, 10:53 AM
Based on this, I'm seeing more upside than downside. I don't know how many levels of Sorcerer I will eventually take, but I think of my remaining 4 levels, I'll make 1 Sorcerer. After the next level bump, maybe splash in more.You DO still get +100 Base SP, +80 Magical Training SP, +(10*CHA mod) Ability Bonus SP, +7% Item SP (@ lvl 14 with a 13/1 split), +1 Will save (net), 2x level 1 Spells, and access to all arcane wands (if you are a wand user).

But, as smyter said, in the short term you lose 1x level 5 spell, -25 Base SP, -(CHA mod) Ability Bonus SP, -1 to-hit and damage from Bardsongs, -2 HP, -1 Reflex save, Lingering SongIV enhancement, -1 BAB (4th attack, crucial for melee ability), -1 song/rest, -4 skill points.

You will not lose any Inspired Attack enhancements with 1 level of Sorc. Nor will you limit your max UMD (it will just cost 2 skill points for 1 rank on your Sorc level).

barabel
08-17-2007, 11:19 AM
I have not played with the Character builder but I'll take a look at that to see what effect this will have with this character.

You guys bring up some good points.

With the Blurs, Good Hope, Haste, Dancing Spheres, Displacement, and Healing spells, I find the more SP the better. I find I am a backup healer more and more these days. Toggling my healing spells can quickly chew through SPs fast.

I rarely find situations where I run out of songs. I've got 14 now as it is and by the time I'm shrining I find I've got several left. I'm usually running around with Inspire Courage and Greatness lasting at least 5-6 minutes. Three or Four songs apiece is usually enough to get through most quests/shrines . Most groups don't want to wait for me to fascinate so those songs dont get used. :(

With regards to attack bonuses, When I'm grouping with folks, I let the melees do a majority of the swinging. Losing one BAB isn't a big deal to me since I'm not a battle bard (STR base 10). If my squishy bard is in there swining, things have gotten bad. :eek:

I can keep my UMD up by spending the skill points on it. I'm a human with decent intelligence so I can cross-class my Haggle and UMD to keep them maxed out. The rest can wait a level to catch up a bit. Not ideal, but not too bad either I think.

So far I haven't had problems with spell penetration, though I haven't done a great deal in Gianthold yet either. If this becomes an issue, that may give me pause on if/when to do this. Perhaps after 12th level so I can take the Spell Penetration feat to help compensate.

smyter
08-17-2007, 02:20 PM
it is true, I probably do use heal scrolls and wands more than the average.. so maybe that is why I never find myself needing extra SP. I use mine primarily for dancing balls and buffs.

spifflove
08-19-2007, 11:57 AM
While the advice to never multiclass is... well not very sound, you do need to weigh the pros an cons

pros: around 150 more sp
+2 will save.

cons: - 1 bab
slows down progression and if you take more than 4 levels of split class you lose level 6 spells.

I was going to say don't do it but actually it looks sorta beneficial. However you can bet that bigger and bigger magi items will be available in the future. So again possibly not worth it.

barabel
08-20-2007, 07:55 AM
If I do take a splash of Sorcerer, I'll mix them up throughout the remaining 10 levels my Bard has. I don't see much of a need to take more than 4 levels of Sorcerer.

Truth be told, it would probably just sit at 2.

Mad_Bombardier
08-20-2007, 10:35 AM
If I do take a splash of Sorcerer, I'll mix them up throughout the remaining 10 levels my Bard has. I don't see much of a need to take more than 4 levels of Sorcerer.

Truth be told, it would probably just sit at 2.Ok, that many Sorc levels is no longer a splash and you are seriously hurting your skills as a Bard. I would not recommend it.

You need to be 13Bard to get level 5 spells. And 4Sorc will not allow you to seriously cast any arcane spells, nor seriously add to your SP (beyond the 1Sorc splash, it's a pretty marginal compared to Bard levels).

MysticRhythms
08-20-2007, 04:12 PM
Blech.

Stay pure.

barabel
08-20-2007, 06:05 PM
Ok, that many Sorc levels is no longer a splash and you are seriously hurting your skills as a Bard. I would not recommend it.

You need to be 13Bard to get level 5 spells. And 4Sorc will not allow you to seriously cast any arcane spells, nor seriously add to your SP (beyond the 1Sorc splash, it's a pretty marginal compared to Bard levels).

You are right Mad. Now that I think of it, 4 would be overkill. So between now (10th) and 14th, I think I'll plan on taking just 1 level of Sorcerer. I'm not seeing any real benefit to taking a 2nd level either at this point so the rest of the way (15th - 20th) would be pure Bard then.

I think I was getting carried away thinking of getting more SP by increasing the Sorcerer/Bard percentages, but you all are right, that math just doesn't fit.